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Thomas
10-26-2009, 02:06 PM
Hi. I came across this site by chance and would really like to understand people I have never met face to face.

I am English born and Christian which faith, by definition, is acquiescent, submissive (turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies etc) but we now seem up against a faith (Islam) that seems to have few if any of these 'disadvantages' to rein in what seems to be a very militant faith. I mean (although it didnt happen in England) tat silly business of Allah being insulted by a teddy bear being named Mohammed when I thought it was one of the commonst names for a boy - like the English JOHN. The other sad things that really irritates and alienates we Brits is Burka covered women holding placards abusing British soldiers as they march past (Luton?). This one act has brought out Brit street mobs to make things much worse for immigrants. Then, yesterday, I read about a 20 years old women ( presume she is female..) going to register for a college cout dressed from head to foot in a burka and refusing to even show her face for identification which seems so incredibly stupid that I can only assume sh was put up to this by others who want to push, push, push the boundaries acceptable to the average Brit. I expect she will appeal against being refused registration - and the appeal will be allowed "in case it offends people of other faiths". In my town we now have a "Tree of Light" instead of an annual Christmas tree "in case th latter offends those of other faiths" . Have you considered how much abuse Christianity takes, every minute of every day through blasphemies and cynicism? And God, in his infinite wisdom allows that whereas muslims seem to feel the need to take revenge - as if Allah is unable to handle it and deal with it.... Dop Muslims ever actually pray for their enemies, do good to those that hurt you and despise you etc?

To summerise, I wish muslim immigrants would just try and assimilate theselves into English life without constanty seeking concessions. OR, are we Brits making misakes by merely thinking that you want Tree of Light etc concessions when you don't want to patronised?
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GuestFellow
10-26-2009, 02:20 PM
Hi.

Welcome to the forum.
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Woodrow
10-26-2009, 02:31 PM
i can not really relate to the happenings in the UK. I was born and raised here in the USA as where many of the Muslims here. Many of us were raised as Christians and it was only after realizing Islam teaches the truth that was lost early in Christianity did we accept Islam. You will often hear us reverts say it was loving Jesus(as) that led us to Islam
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zakirs
10-26-2009, 02:45 PM
Hi ,

Welcome to the forum .. go on ask questions in the forum.


e now seem up against a faith (Islam) that seems to have few if any of these 'disadvantages' to rein in what seems to be a very militant faith.
You have a very wrong idea of what islam is .. please explore through the forum and hope you learn true islam.
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Woodrow
10-26-2009, 02:51 PM
Forgive my poor manners. I should have said this earlier.


WELCOME TO THE FORUMS



Please enjoy your stay here and feel free to ask questions.
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GuestFellow
10-26-2009, 03:05 PM
I think Thomas you should create a topic and explain any issues you have with Islam, specifically point out any issues about Islam you would like to discuss. It would give a clear idea on how to address them.
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Woodrow
10-26-2009, 03:15 PM
As I can not relate specifically to issues that pertain to the UK, I would just like to address your overall topic heading. "Would like to understand you people.."

To begin with we are very diverse. We come from all walks of life, all nationalities and of all races. We are born citizens and we are immigrants. Many of us began life in another faith, Most commonly Christianity. Many if not most of us have tremendous love and respect for Jesus(as). Islam is basically very simple but we as Muslims are as complex and diverse as all humans are. We have a very strong sense of personal responsibility and accept all we do, say and believe as our own choices and not the result of what others have taught us or led us to believe. We follow no ordained clergy and have no central leader except for Allaah(swt). Many of us only speak the language of the country we are born in. Very few of us speak Arabic as a first Language, although we all strive to learn it so we may read the Qur'an in it's original language.
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zakirs
10-26-2009, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
As I can not relate specifically to issues that pertain to the UK, I would just like to address your overall topic heading. "Would like to understand you people.."

To begin with we are very diverse. We come from all walks of life, all nationalities and of all races. We are born citizens and we are immigrants. Many of us began life in another faith, Most commonly Christianity. Many if not most of us have tremendous love and respect for Jesus(as). Islam is basically very simple but we as Muslims are as complex and diverse as all humans are. We have a very strong sense of personal responsibility and accept all we do, say and believe as our own choices and not the result of what others have taught us or led us to believe. We follow no ordained clergy and have no central leader except for Allaah(swt). Many of us only speak the language of the country we are born in. Very few of us speak Arabic as a first Language, although we all strive to learn it so we may read the Qur'an in it's original language.
I would like to add a few things to it,

We also believe in all the things(Abraham (as) , Moses (as) , Noah (as) etc ) you do except trinity ( and a few minor things)
We believe in 5 basic tenants (known as pilliars )
1) Shahada (acceptance of 1 GOD and his messenger (pbuh)
2) Salat (prayer)
3) Zakat (charity)
4)Sawm of Ramadan (fasting during ramadan for Allah)
5)Hajj (pilgrimage to holy place of makkah)

Now could you tell me , does any of this point to " militancy" ?


EDIT : Do you know Bible also insists on woman wearing veil ? Why do nuns wear veils ?
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Misz_Muslimah
10-26-2009, 04:49 PM
Welcome to the forum Thomas :)
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A'râf
10-26-2009, 04:52 PM
Hi!

Welcome to us :)))
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Muslim Woman
10-26-2009, 05:03 PM
Salaam/Peace

Originally Posted by Thomas
Hi. I came across this site by chance
Welcome to the forum :statisfie


In my town we now have a "Tree of Light" instead of an annual Christmas tree "in case th latter offends those of other faiths" . Have you considered how much abuse Christianity takes..

but Jesus pbuh did not teach Christians to celebrate annual Christmas tree , am I right ? So , why do u think it's offensive / abusing ??
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Thomas
10-26-2009, 06:17 PM
Thank you for your several replies.

Because I am in UK we have some specific problems, being an overcrowded small island. I appreciate that 'pure' Islam is peaceful and incorporates 'love they neighbour' etc and similar to 'pure' christianity. We have received many many immigrants over hundreds of years including the persecuted French protestants who brought their trades with them and,of course, there was no religious conflict. we also received many Jewish refugees througought the 1930s when Hitler was on the rampage AND the escapees from 1939 onwards when most of Europe was overrun by the Nazis and Hitler was only 20 miles from our shores and England in 1940 was completely alone in Europe and at its most desperate and dangerous period since the year 1066! Our Commonwealth allies in Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc did give us much support but we desperately needed help close at hand. After the war, came the West Indians and they assimilated into our culture so nobody can say that we are intolerant of immigrants in general. The population here is now touching 55 million and in very recent years we have received 2 MILLION immigrants so you can see the likelihood of culture clash. The problem is partly religious and partly political. Many of the women dont speak English and show no interest in learning the language. Yet they can vote... so we have to have all the paperwork in 15/20 different languages/dialects in case they miss out on their rights.. but how can they know what is going on if they cant read and write? Obviously, their men folk are dictating the pace as they are used to doing in their own homeland.
The women are entitled to wear burkas if they wish but they will not be welcome in my shop unless I can see their face. Why should I take the risk of it being a terrorist or a robber under cover? In a recent major TV debate programme, one of the panellists was shouted down as a 'nazi' although that party hasn't existed since Germany was defeated in 1945. But guess who shouted this insult? A person that we are virtually forbidden to call a 'paki' because it would "offend a person of another faith" which is the latest politically correct phrase in UK. The 'nazi' jibe should have been edited out as the perceived insult 'paki' would have been, but it wasnt because English people are used to verbal insults and we dont need to fight God's side by issuing 'fatwahs' or whatever the right word is. The Australians call us 'pommie *******s' and we are Brits and we call Americans 'Yanks' but love them just the same, so what is wrong with 'Paki'? And the notion that Allah will provide 72 virgins for any 'successful' suicide bomber is so ridiculous as laughable - but they seem to believe it. Does Allah really say that? And what reward would a female bomber get?

I am sorry to sound so political but the current Islamic immigration problem here has become acute and likely to explode to their disadvantage in the not too distant future. Why do so many of them want to come here anyway? Thousands of them pass through numerous 'safe haven' countries on the way here. is it the English social security benefits? You guys in USA have an enormous country compared to us but with only 4 times the population (approx 200 million?) It is not their faith, not their clothes, not the colour of their skin, not the fact that many schools now have classes where the majority of the pupils come from homes where English is not spoken, so 5 year old starters have to be taught to speak English like most of us did at our mothers' knees. It is DEFINITELY the resentment of more and more immigrants coming and encouraged to change our European culture. Schools scared to have the traditional christmas carol concert "in case it offends children of other faiths" Every one of them knows their "rights" or if they dont, they know somebody else who does... We even have convicted Islamic major terrorists who wont be deported when they are released half way through their sentences because they have "rights" with their friends working on that meanwhile...

If only they would just come here, get jobs, assimilate, build their mosques, stop abusing soldiers who return from risking their lives in Afganistan etc etc, all of which things completely alienate indiginous Brits.

What can 'moderate' muslims do to stop all this before it goes too far? The moslem faith exhibited here seems so different to what your correspondents have described. Do they act like this USA? Probably not because you have plenty of room for them to disperse. We have northern cities with completely no-go areas for non-muslims.

Will somebody tell me where we Brits in UK go from here? This question is now so serious that it is going to be the MAIN debate prior to the next general election that has to take place within the next 6 months. Wouldnt it be great if we could all love our (even Islamic) neighbour.....
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Woodrow
10-26-2009, 07:19 PM
Peace Thomas,

Hopefully some of our Muslim members from the UK will address your issues. Since I am here in the USA and do not have any personal experience with the issues in the UK I will keep my answer to Islamic matters.

This is a common thing I hear.

And the notion that Allah will provide 72 virgins for any 'successful' suicide bomber is so ridiculous as laughable
Suicide is forbidden in Islam. The killing of innocents and non-combatants is forbidden, the killing of anyone by the use of fire is forbidden. I believe that suicide bombers are acting contrary to the teachings of Islam.

The name "Paki" has become a derogatory and offensive term in much the same way an "N" word has become derogatory here in the USA much of that goes back to the 1950s. The era of "Teddy Boys" Skin Heads" and "Paki Bashing"

Check out these links:

http://newmatilda.com/2006/09/27/pak...ford-bankstown

http://books.google.com/books?id=d5M...istory&f=false
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GuestFellow
10-26-2009, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Many of the women dont speak English and show no interest in learning the language.
There are Asian people who do try and learn the English language. Three of my aunties who are Pakistani can read and write English very well and fluent too. My auntie teaches other students how to read and write English. The students find it very difficult to learn English because they have never been through a formal educational system. Most of the students simply learn how to communicate and write basic English. Women may not have time because children is their first priority. As an overview the vast majority of Asian people would like to learn English but find it very hard and difficult. It is like telling you to grasp Urdu or Arabic within the time frame of 2 years. You have to take into consideration how difficult it is to learn a language. The vast majority learn how to communicate but do not go any further than that.

Yet they can vote... so we have to have all the paperwork in 15/20 different languages/dialects in case they miss out on their rights.. but how can they know what is going on if they cant read and write?
They have relatives to help them out who can speak English.

The women are entitled to wear burkas if they wish but they will not be welcome in my shop unless I can see their face. Why should I take the risk of it being a terrorist or a robber under cover?
Before September 11th no one had a problem women wearing the Burka. I think people are overreacting and paranoid. The media has blown things out of proportion but in time...hopefully things shall settle Inshallah. Only a few girls wear the Burka. If you will not allow a women to enter your shop because she wears a burka, then she will simply go to another shop.

In a recent major TV debate programme, one of the panellists was shouted down as a 'nazi' although that party hasn't existed since Germany was defeated in 1945. But guess who shouted this insult? A person that we are virtually forbidden to call a 'paki' because it would "offend a person of another faith" which is the latest politically correct phrase in UK. The 'nazi' jibe should have been edited out as the perceived insult 'paki' would have been, but it wasnt because English people are used to verbal insults and we dont need to fight God's side by issuing 'fatwahs' or whatever the right word is. The Australians call us 'pommie *******s' and we are Brits and we call Americans 'Yanks' but love them just the same, so what is wrong with 'Paki'? And the notion that Allah will provide 72 virgins for any 'successful' suicide bomber is so ridiculous as laughable - but they seem to believe it. Does Allah really say that? And what reward would a female bomber get?
Wow. Reading the post above is like trying to decipher an ancient code and I'm not sure where to start.

It depends on the context on how you use those words. Saying Paki on it's own is not offensive since I've heard it means pure. However if I said ''You Paki [inserts offensive word] then it could imply your racist. If you intentionally use the word Paki to be offensive then it is racist. Fatwā simply means a religious opinion concerning Islam law...

Why do so many of them want to come here anyway?
I'm not going to give an answer which shall explain why everyone wants to come here. First people want to look for work, get their children educated and live a better life. Simple.

It is DEFINITELY the resentment of more and more immigrants coming and encouraged to change our European culture.
How are we changing your culture?

Schools scared to have the traditional christmas carol concert "in case it offends children of other faiths" Every one of them knows their "rights" or if they dont, they know somebody else who does...
I never heard of this. Where did you hear that?

We even have convicted Islamic major terrorists who wont be deported when they are released half way through their sentences because they have "rights" with their friends working on that meanwhile...
That is a different matter. Muslims do not control in what takes place in the courts.

If only they would just come here, get jobs, assimilate, build their mosques, stop abusing soldiers who return from risking their lives in Afganistan etc etc, all of which things completely alienate indiginous Brits.
I agree they should not have insulted the soldiers. Some idiots do not represent Islam very well.

What can 'moderate' muslims do to stop all this before it goes too far? The moslem faith exhibited here seems so different to what your correspondents have described. Do they act like this USA? Probably not because you have plenty of room for them to disperse. We have northern cities with completely no-go areas for non-muslims.
Stop what? Specifically.

Will somebody tell me where we Brits in UK go from here?
Well we can find on something we agree on and build on top of it. That should ease the tension in this country. Tighten immigration laws.
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UmmSqueakster
10-26-2009, 08:00 PM
Welcome!

I do hope that one of the things you'll learn here is that "we people" are not a monolith. I'm a euro-american convert to islam, married to a first generation egyptian-american who just became a citizen a few months back.

I honestly am not familiar with the situation in britain as an insider, and can only comment from the outside looking in. I see that the british empire colonized a wide variety of cultures, and now these cultures have become part of your own.

Myself, coming from a country that is more of a stew of cultures, I see nothing threatening about people coming and bringing their traditions with them. We're not a full on melting pot, but rather, once you jump in, you take on the flavor of the country, but keep your own unique character while adding a bit of your own flavor to the mix. It's a big ol stew, blending and highlighting a great variety. The judge who administered my husband's oath of citizenship said something very similar (although not using the stew analogy, i just always think in terms of food, lol).

I don't see (american) culture as something that is being lost or threatened by immigrants. I am sad that my own family's histories were lost and am currently doing my best to revive them here through cooking (working on siciliy now, mmmm).
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Thomas
10-26-2009, 08:09 PM
Hi Woodrow
Thanks for your response.

I am anxious to sort fact from fiction but when one feels hemmed in and threatened one does tend to believe everything one hers and reads. So, confirmation or otherwise of such things from 'normal' moslems is helpful - regrettably I do not know any muslims personally which is probably because there are not many here on the south coast of England and those that are, are usually into hotel/restaurant catering and inclined to keep to themselves.

SO. I am already learning: Suicide bombing and the notion that one is rewarded with the 'use' of 72 virgins is completely wrong and inexcusable and the virgins bit is a complete myth. Would that be right? When people like me first hear about the latter, we just find it incredible that these bombers can equate carnal things like using women for sexual intercourse as some kind of reward, with a spiritual dimension of the next world, as so ridiculous. Why would God even think like men do? The old testament of the bible tells us that God has said "My ways are not your ways and your ways are not my ways" which seems very reasonable when one considers the level on which mankind seems to operate and often so stupidly.

Another correspondent has asked me of the connection between christianity and the christmas tree. There is a misunderstanding in my post on that subject. I should have seperated one from the other by a seperate paragraph.
What I meant was the merely traditional and spiritually unimportant annual Christmas Tree in every town and school is now at risk of being renamed because the word 'christmas ' can be offensive to moslems... The christmas tree has no spiritual significance (brought here from Germany by Queen Victoria's husband as late as the year 1850) It is just a nice thing to have at Christmas. Then, some outspoken Muslim council leader probably suggested changing it to a Tree of Light to 'encompass' a minority of Muslims - and possibly a perceived vote catcher. If Muslims want to fast for Ramadan, thats ok by me. But some bright spark recently put round a staff notice in a government office suggesting that the rest of the staff dont eat their usual biscuits with mid morning coffee in front of Muslims because it is 'unfair'... I thought the whole idea of fasting was a matter of principal and that some sacrifice would be called for. I'm not saying that non-moslems should tantalise ramadam fasters by saying things like "do you want a bite of this?" as that would amount to unacceptability. The mention of christianity abuse was meant to be a quite seperate issue and whilst moslems dont neccessarily use profain language, millions of others do and christians just have to put up with it. It was in this sense that I think Moslems are wimpish about wanting to make an issue of things every time Mohammed or Allah is perceived as being abused. Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?
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Woodrow
10-26-2009, 08:41 PM
Pace Thomas,

The idea of 72 virgins in heaven is not totally invalid. The Qur'an state that upon entering Heaven we will be greeted by 72 virtuous companions. As to the purpose s we are told that they will do our bidding. To be honest the Qur'an is not very clear in describing them except they will have large beautiful eyes. From what I read they will not be human's as they apparently do not have free will and are created to serve us. women will receive the same according to the interpretations of most scholars.
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UmmSqueakster
10-26-2009, 08:47 PM
Correction - the Qur'an mentions helpers in paradise, but does not mention a number. The source of the specific numbers come from hadith, and even there it doesn't say specifically only 72.
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Wyatt
10-26-2009, 08:53 PM
I am not a Muslim.

This person seems like another one who just wants their prejudice to be proven instead of opening their mind to the possibility that they have been wrong all along--pretending like they want to understand. (I got this by the you people in the title.)

I encourage you to read through this forum, definitely read the Qur'an and meet some of the many Muslims in the UK. There are plenty of resources to learn about Islam, but it really does take quite the bit of research.

Remember, if you truly want to learn about Islam, you have to keep your mind open and realise that there are blatant lies and twisted misconceptions.

It does seem like a very militant religion, only because you are getting your information from the media and the news. I don't see it like that at all and neither do most others, I believe.

Good luck, and who knows, maybe you will be a future convert. I almost was. :shade:
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aamirsaab
10-26-2009, 09:01 PM
What's cracking Thomas?
Originally Posted by Thomas
...

If Muslims want to fast for Ramadan, thats ok by me. But some bright spark recently put round a staff notice in a government office suggesting that the rest of the staff dont eat their usual biscuits with mid morning coffee in front of Muslims because it is 'unfair'... I thought the whole idea of fasting was a matter of principal and that some sacrifice would be called for. I'm not saying that non-moslems should tantalise ramadam fasters by saying things like "do you want a bite of this?" as that would amount to unacceptability.
TBH that's really something small and not particularly problematic. I mean, I personally don't mind if you stuff your face infront of me whilst I'm fasting but I guess it's different strokes for different folks. Whatever, it's still pretty minute.

...It was in this sense that I think Moslems are wimpish about wanting to make an issue of things every time Mohammed or Allah is perceived as being abused.
This isn't always the case. A lot of the times I have been offended by all the Islam-bashing BUT I know that people in general are ass-hats so I just shrug it off and not let it bother me. Which leads me to:

Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?
Oh we do. But we can only take so many uppercuts to the chin before it starts to hurt - especially if they are uncalled for. And even more so when the guy throwing the punch starts chanting freedom of speech (before, during AND after) so if I dare to say: ''STOP HITTING ME GOD-****IT'' I'm suddenly trying to remove their freedoms...and if I dare fight back, I'm branded a terrorist...:(

Anyways, enjoy your stay on the forums!
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Woodrow
10-26-2009, 09:06 PM
I would also like to address this part:

The mention of christianity abuse was meant to be a quite seperate issue and whilst moslems dont neccessarily use profain language, millions of others do and christians just have to put up with it. It was in this sense that I think Moslems are wimpish about wanting to make an issue of things every time Mohammed or Allah is perceived as being abused. Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?
It is difficult for non-Muslims to understand why us Muslims get so irate when Allaah(swt) or any of the Prophets(PBUT) are objects of ridicule. For most Muslims it is incomprehensible that any person could even do such a thing. For many Muslims to hear or read such produces a very real shock to the senses.
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GuestFellow
10-26-2009, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
If Muslims want to fast for Ramadan, thats ok by me. But some bright spark recently put round a staff notice in a government office suggesting that the rest of the staff dont eat their usual biscuits with mid morning coffee in front of Muslims because it is 'unfair'... I thought the whole idea of fasting was a matter of principal and that some sacrifice would be called for. I'm not saying that non-moslems should tantalise ramadam fasters by saying things like "do you want a bite of this?" as that would amount to unacceptability. The mention of christianity abuse was meant to be a quite seperate issue and whilst moslems dont neccessarily use profain language, millions of others do and christians just have to put up with it. It was in this sense that I think Moslems are wimpish about wanting to make an issue of things every time Mohammed or Allah is perceived as being abused. Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?
It is no big deal. I was fasting when I went to college and sit with other non-Muslims while they were eating. Did not bother me at all.

Oh yes Muslims do put up with a lot of negativity. It is what called ''freedom of expression.'' When someone says something negative at least be prepared for the consequences. Not that I'm saying how Muslims respond is right at times. Some Muslims do not represent Islam very well. Most Muslims ignore it.
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Thomas
10-26-2009, 10:19 PM
PODAROK is wrong. I am not trying to prove my own prejudices at all. That is why I am presenting my case/questions and asking for explanations. This site is the closest I have ever come to communicating with muslims and would like to know some personally but have always felt that they would feel under threat if questioned. I have several friends who laugh at me for "believing in fairies" but I dont let it shake my christian faith and we remain friends. If one becomes a muslim does one have to renounce christianity as false or in some kind of ceremony?

I have not yet learned how to respond by using 'qoutes' system so have to continue using whichever Reply box is a th bottom of the page.... how does it work?
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GuestFellow
10-26-2009, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
PODAROK is wrong. I am not trying to prove my own prejudices at all. That is why I am presenting my case/questions and asking for explanations. This site is the closest I have ever come to communicating with muslims and would like to know some personally but have always felt that they would feel under threat if questioned. I have several friends who laugh at me for "believing in fairies" but I dont let it shake my christian faith and we remain friends. If one becomes a muslim does one have to renounce christianity as false or in some kind of ceremony?

I have not yet learned how to respond by using 'qoutes' system so have to continue using whichever Reply box is a th bottom of the page.... how does it work?
No we don't feel under threat if questioned. Over the years Muslims have gone impatient with how the media portrays us. Allegations are made against Islam which are not true. Muslims do get fed up eventually and respond harshly.

To use the quote system, find the post that you want to respond to. On that post, there should be a small blue button called ''Quote.'' Click on it and you will be able to respond to that post. If you would to respond to more than one post, click on the button next to the Quote button, it will come up as multi-quote.
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Woodrow
10-26-2009, 10:31 PM
I moved this to comparative religion for 2 reasons.

1. give it more exposure

2. Some new members wish to reply to it.
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Woodrow
10-26-2009, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
PODAROK is wrong. I am not trying to prove my own prejudices at all. That is why I am presenting my case/questions and asking for explanations. This site is the closest I have ever come to communicating with muslims and would like to know some personally but have always felt that they would feel under threat if questioned. I have several friends who laugh at me for "believing in fairies" but I dont let it shake my christian faith and we remain friends. If one becomes a muslim does one have to renounce christianity as false or in some kind of ceremony?

I have not yet learned how to respond by using 'qoutes' system so have to continue using whichever Reply box is a th bottom of the page.... how does it work?
No worry.We encourage all members to post their opinions. About the only time we will interfere is if a member engages in bashing another member or blatantly promotes a religion other than Islam, (Evangelistic type post)

Honest disagreement and debate is encouraged. Main rule being we all agree to disagree respectably.l
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UmmSqueakster
10-26-2009, 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
If one becomes a muslim does one have to renounce christianity as false or in some kind of ceremony?

Becoming muslim is relatively simple. It is to recite and believe the shahada - la ilaha il Allah, Muhammadur rasul Allah - there is nothing worthy of worship except God, and Muhammad is His messenger.

Implicit in this is that we accept the message of Muhammad (saws) as the final, complete and incorrupted message of Allah (swt), and that any previous dispensations have been superceeded. While we hold Jesus (as) to be a prophet, we do not believe that modern day christianity is an accurate reflection of what he taught.

So in declaring la ilaha il Allah, Muhammadur rasul Allah, you are giving up previously held christian beliefs. For me, those were things I had given up quite some time before I became a muslim, so it was more from a neutral state that I declared my shahada, rather than one of renunciation.
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Insaanah
10-26-2009, 11:15 PM
Firstly, welcome to the forum Thomas.

I guess one of your main issues is that you see so many concessions being made for Muslims, who you see on TV as bearded or burkhaed fanatics that seem to be trying to take over the country, and who disagree with every British moral value.

What I would say, as a word of warning, is beware of what you read, and see in the media. The media is very good at taking one or a few isolated stories and emblazoning it across the front pages. If you think just in London how many people read the Metro on the tube each day, all those people will think that that it what Muslims do. The media just ain't interested in good stories about Muslims, cos they won't make good reading and won't sell papers.

Having said that, there are also Muslims who don't behave according to the teachings of Islam, or behave badly, and unfortunately it's them that get the media attention.

Part of the problem is that Muslims sometimes don't talk about Islam to people, so people don't know what it's all about and that breeds fear. I guess that's what's happened up North, there's no communication and hence there's fear. But you've done the right thing by coming here to ask.

Regarding the beaurocratic stepping on eggshells re: Christmas trees and eating in front of fasting people, and season's greetings instead of Merry Christmas, that is just plain stupidity. I've never known anyone to get offended at that. Part of the problem is, I guess, that Britain is no longer a "Christian" country, because our politicians are losing morals. When it was, like when I was at school, there were a lot more morals. This whole avoiding Christmas business is also designed to avoid offending Atheists, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews etc. Why not just keep the greeting Christian, how it used to be? Why would anyone take offence at that?

Yes, immigration IS a huge problem here. But I guess you would see (correct me if I'm wrong) all Muslims as being immigrant. I'm born and bred here, paid into the system all my life,and then see people arriving on the plane, they get accommodation, and everything paid. I agree that that's wrong too. But a lot of those people are from non-Muslim countries, so I'm not quite sure why Islam always gets linked with it.

"I think Moslems are wimpish about wanting to make an issue of things every time Mohammed or Allah is perceived as being abused". We do that for Jesus (peace be upon him ) too! :) If someone insulted your mum, would you take it on the chin and pray for them? We love, respect, and follow them more than our parents :)
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-26-2009, 11:23 PM
Greetings Thomas and welcome to the forum.

I'd reply to all your posts but it's too much and I've come tooooo late...:p
I think I'll let the rest answer lol.

So yea you have a lot on your mind I can tell. Please do stick around and ask whatever you need to ask, granted you really want to learn :)

There is plenty of material to be read here and most likely you'll have a lot of questions/misconceptions cleared away...

Peace.
Reply

mahi
10-26-2009, 11:30 PM
Hey Thomas, I'm glad you came to a forum like this to talk to actual muslims rather than listen to the media. Since whilst much of the media is impartial to many subjects, the vast majority has some sort of bias and portray certain views, and specifically in the UK very negativley towards Muslims.

Anyhow, you gave a lot of things to talk about. So I'll start with this whole immigration problem. Its becoming quite clear its a growing concern for many of the 'English' and will become a major talking point. You think immigration is massive problem, but why not, as in Christianity, take it on the chin and pray it works out fine? You may want to stop people from coming, but that won't help anything. Imagine you lived in a country in severe poverty, and you wanted to go somewhere else, but we're not able too? Many people I personally know who move to the UK do it because they have nothing where they live, they have no cash, coming here gives them some money to earn for their families back home. If you're faced with giving the best possible life to your family, you won't care which country you're in. Unfortunately many people think they have some divine right to certain lands and are very wary to 'different' people, although we're all HUMANS. You never know, tomorrow a massive Tsunami could kill all the people of England, and then it wouldn't really belong to anyone.

Next point on the insults taken by using Muhammad or Allah in an abusive way, or something that may seem abusive. Let's take it this way, if someone abused your mother, would you stand for it? The love a muslim has for God should and is greater than anything else. With Muhammad he was a great man, and I think muslims don't want him to be start used in playful terms. What I mean by this is you have programs like the simpsons (which I do watch, by the way) that show and sometimes make jokes with Jesus. I think they would hate to see anything even closely similar becoming the norm with our beloved prophet, and I am glad the strength of the muslims and this Ummah (community) is great enough to stand up against all abuse, no matter how small they may be.

Next I want to make a quick point about prejudicing. In many of your points that you're looking to answers for (which is great) you're using some serious prejudices. Many of them even I fell for, but a quick search made me wonder why I had any doubt in the first place. Simply put, don't go with stereotypes. You talk about muslim women who can't talk English but can vote? Well my mother who was not born in the UK or has English as a mother tongue speaks better English than myself, and works as social worker. I know many many of my friends who have come from different countries but have and many still are making great efforts to learn English. This includes people who came when they are like 13 years old. English lessons at school must've been hell, everyone else learning about stuff like climaxes and oxymorons, whilst you can't even read the alphabet! But they try. You also talk about men controlling women like in other countries. Do you have any experiences of this? Or do you talk about what you get from the media? I repeat this point again, don't go with what the media tell you. If you have personal experience, then that's a whole different matter. My mother practically owns my father haha, so I'd say you're quite wrong there.
Secondly is the whole idea of "Why can others do this, while we can't?". You talk of why the term Paki is a no no whilst calling people Nazi is allowed? Well because the term Paki was used by people who used it in a racist way. Its like the N word like someone mentioned. And calling Nazi to people like Nick Griffin I don't agree with. It should've been censored. But this is whole idea is stupid. Do you know that muslims in Afghanistan, Palestine, and many other places are fighting countries with many helicopters and weapons, whilst they have basic guns? Whilst we live in the comfort of our homes, they are attacked and killed? This makes your points worthless, so don't go with this whole they get treated better than us. In face, don't go with this whole 'They' or 'You' thing at all.

The 72 virgin thing I don't have much if not any knowledge on, so i can't give you an answer too.

Oh just a small note on the lady who went to the college in a burka, she was even qouted as saying she was willing to remove it for identification. Media eh? I personally respect these women tremendously, because even though all the pressure put on them through the media, they still go with what they believe is right. And coverring ones self up has many more benefits than negaitives, trust me. Next point, you must understand that in every faith, there are those who make the rest look bad. But they're always the minority, in every faith.

On the Christmas concert thing, I don't understand that. I go to a school with a large muslim proportion of students, and we still have a Christmas time show, where many of the non Christians join in too. We all join in 'Christian' sort of prayer at the end of every assembly we have. Fasting I don't understand why a muslim would have a problem with someone eating in front of them. The fast is not some sort of personal gratification or ego boost, its to remember those who have no food and also for the love of God. But at the same time it wouldn't hurt for others to be considerate too. Just like how you're saying muslim people should respect your society. That leads me to a story of how back in the time of the prophet, when lands were conquered, the Christians and Jews and everyone were left to be as they were, they were respected as well as their faiths and ways of life. You call Islam a militant religion, but you only see crap like the Taliban representing the muslins. By that sort of stuff I could use the first crusade to represent the Christians. When the Christian emperors invaded Jerusalem and won it from the muslims, they killed all the muslims and jews there. They spared no one. Even those that sought shelter in the holy mosque were found and killed. Not a single child nor mother. But I wouldn't for the life of me think of all Christians as cold blooded murders, and neither would you.


So I've tried to answer anything you've brought up, hopefully they satisfy you. If not, then that's fine, feel free to ask again :)
I just noted that you mentioned Christianity and why muslims couldn't be like Christians. Muslims generally respect Christians a great deal, as Chrisitans are seen as the People of the Book, fellow believers in God. Here's a qoute from the Quran:
And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. [Qur'an 29:46]


Again I'm very glad you came to this forum. You can learn so much and at the same time can teach many a thing about Christianity too, if you wish to do so. If you have the time, I'd advise watching a few videos of a muslim man called Yusuf Estes, he talks about lots of prominent issues and clears many conceptions up. If you have the time, that is. And just as one more point, I have, even though having the most heartless supplications of all time, prayed for non muslims atleast once.

And ah, just noticed the poster Insane above me. Haha, you have a similar post to mine. Congratulations on being faster. But next time, you're mine.
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Thomas
10-26-2009, 11:41 PM
Hi Insaan. Thanks so much for your very informative reply. You are the kind of muslim I would like to have lived near or worked with because whilst you hold the faith you appreciate how silly all these probably unwanted concessions are greatly aggravating people. A younger acqauntance of mine has just moved from Chadwell Heath, Essex because SHE said she felt like a white dot on a black domino. She tried to sell the house to what she saw as a European but no chance now that the street had been taken over, so gave in and just made it one more of 'them'. I know this sounds somewhat racist but it is her honest opinion and keeping quiet about it didnt change her feelings about the matter. When I lived elsewhere on the sussex coast I had an indian dentist (actually he was a Catholic so Islam didnt com into it) but it never occured to me to see him as anything but the same a everybody else. He told me that he had never been to India but came from Africa because his Indian grandfather emigrated there to help build the railways. But if I now lived in one of those northern cities I suppose I would be naturally suspicious and would probably check the location of his surgery before phoning.

I live in Eastbourne on the Sussex coast so not directly effected day to day but am very concerned about the constant immigrants who seem to be often immediately turned back or locked up if coming through Heathrow but come through Dover and seemingly have to be let go. Yes. We are now overcrowded and muslims get the blame but they dont always seem to help thir case..... Where abouts in UK do you live?
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Insaanah
10-26-2009, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
I live in Eastbourne on the Sussex coast so not directly effected day to day but am very concerned about the constant immigrants who seem to be often immediately turned back or locked up if coming through Heathrow but come through Dover and seemingly have to be let go. Yes. We are now overcrowded and muslims get the blame but they dont always seem to help thir case..... Where abouts in UK do you live?
No problem Thomas. I actually live in London, in a very multicultural area - English, Italian, Spanish, Polish, Barbadan, Goa, Kenyan, Chinese (the origins of some of my neighbours), different faiths - atheists, Christian protestant and RC, and we all get along fine. Don't see why everyone else can't though.
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Thomas
10-27-2009, 12:30 AM
Hi Mahi

Thanks for your interesting response and I am going to re-read and digest what you say. I did write a response just now, dropped the mouse and when i stood up the whole lot had disappeared...... Lost for ever?

I will respond asap
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zakirs
10-27-2009, 06:14 AM
Thanks so much for your very informative reply. You are the kind of muslim I would like to have lived near or worked with because whilst you hold the faith you appreciate how silly all these probably unwanted concessions are greatly aggravating people. A younger acqauntance of mine has just moved from Chadwell Heath, Essex because SHE said she felt like a white dot on a black domino. She tried to sell the house to what she saw as a European but no chance now that the street had been taken over, so gave in and just made it one more of 'them'. I know this sounds somewhat racist but it is her honest opinion and keeping quiet about it didnt change her feelings about the matter. When I lived elsewhere on the sussex coast I had an indian dentist (actually he was a Catholic so Islam didnt com into it) but it never occured to me to see him as anything but the same a everybody else. He told me that he had never been to India but came from Africa because his Indian grandfather emigrated there to help build the railways. But if I now lived in one of those northern cities I suppose I would be naturally suspicious and would probably check the location of his surgery before phoning.
Why suspicious ? would they kill you ? come on i know you are intelligent , show a bit of common sense.

Thomas why do you think it as taking over.. i mean why do people fear living among different cultures ? Remember that Britain also has a legacy of colonialism , all the immigrants you see now come from its former "empires".And for your information they just don't live on social benifits. They work there , chances are when you get treated in NHS you are most prolly treated by a doctor of foreign origin 1 out of 2 times.They serve you people and they made their home there.
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Uthman
10-27-2009, 09:10 AM
Regarding 72 virgins, it's explained really well in this video: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...sir-qadhi.html

Along with various other things about the Islamic conception of paradise.
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mahi
10-27-2009, 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Hi Mahi

Thanks for your interesting response and I am going to re-read and digest what you say. I did write a response just now, dropped the mouse and when i stood up the whole lot had disappeared...... Lost for ever?

I will respond asap
Ha, no worries
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Thomas
10-27-2009, 06:31 PM
Hi Mahi
Just got back from a 54th! reunion of those I worked with when I was 16 and straight from school so I will leave it you work out how old I am...

I realise that this forum is a religous one rather than a political arena but because your faith and our immigration worries are so closely linked please forgive me for using this forum but it needs to be said in the hope of a better future - for my grandchildren if not for me...

This island has not been invaded since 1066! So we are naturally wary of foreigners.. Hitler came close when we were at our most desperate in 1940 and if he had succeeded, all muslims as well as all jews here (all those classed by the nazis as non-super race misfits) as well as any christian daring to put his head above the parapet in protest, are likely to have ended up in a very nasty place of unspeakable horrors.

The main problem with Asian immigration is that, like in civil wars, we don't know friend from foe and although there are obviously very few foes, we over react - like we did soon after 7/7 when any Asian looking person wearing a rucksack on the tube trains was persona non grata and one to smartly walk away from. But can you blame us? I have never heard of a European of christian descent destroying himself and thinking that taking lots of others with him is a good idea that pleases Allah.... Are such people clever but mentally retarded?

I repeat that the real problem is not the immigrant himself (although this IS now of much political concern) but the perceived untrustworthiness problem he /she brings with him/her. "He is foreign, where does he come from?, what's he doing here?, is he on Benefit?, does he speak English?, loads of relatives waiting to follow him?, on bogus student visas?, several 'wives' being claimed as dependants? etc etc". Prejudice? YES but we need to be convinced otherwise. So this IS a problem for YOU to resolve. If any one (or two?) of you came to live next to me, that would be quite ok but I dont want the whole street, and those surrounding it, to be swamped like is seems to be in some, mainly northern, cities. I am trying hard to overcome my prejudices but need your reassurances. The speed with which immigrants have come and are still coming (and staying) is far to high for us to handle, thus the resentment. Muslims want to be accepted but please understand why we are wary - and living in Asian ghettos and speaking unidentifiable foreign languages doesn't help...

Some years ago I met a German man who had been a prisoner of war here from 1944 (he said it was his salvation from his, by then, mad leader). He was put to work for an English farmer who told him that one German was ok but two or more together was not ok, speaking a foreign language - "what are they planning?"

Please try and help US by discouraging presumably unwanted concessions that only makes matters worse. If stupid busybody town councillors would STOP trying to make probably unwanted concessions regarding things like Christmas, we English would not read about the 'hijacking' of facilities and customs that are very meaningful to us, and scare us..

If the muslims could invent a winter festival of their own and decorate their shops, even invent a character like father christmas, that would be great. We could join in if invited and you wouldnt feel the threat of us wanting it abolished. Regarding Ramadan there is no problem at all since Christians have a season called Lent which lasts for 6 weeks just before Easter (March/April). It is a period of reflection and self denial, not fasting exactly but just thinking of other may be poorer or less fortunate people. Similar but slightly different if you know what I mean. There are no other major christian festivals to hijack or to make concessions for.

Muslims may not like what I have written but I have tried to be constructive and honest and without malice. Please help US to lose our worries and prejudices.

P.S. What is the difference between A 'Quick Reply' and a 'New Reply' ?
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Woodrow
10-27-2009, 06:50 PM
The p.s. is the easiest to answer so I'll tackle that first.

The fast reply lacks most of the features found in the new reply, it doesn't have that little line of icons that lets you do neat stuff with links and fonts and that assorted stuff.

Calculating your age from your post places you as being close to my age. I'm glad to see I'm not the only walking fossil here.

All of us have prejudices. The best we can do is to acknowledge we have them and do our best to keep them from acting or speaking with unwarranted bias.
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Muezzin
10-27-2009, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Hi. I came across this site by chance and would really like to understand people I have never met face to face.

I am English born and Christian which faith, by definition, is acquiescent, submissive (turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies etc) but we now seem up against a faith (Islam) that seems to have few if any of these 'disadvantages' to rein in what seems to be a very militant faith.
Wouldn't say it's militant. I personally, and all of the Muslims I know in real life, are not militant or violent. However, rather than 'turn the other cheek', Muslims tend to emphasise 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'. In other words, they're encourage to actively make a stand against injustice. This does not neccessarily mean reacting violently. But if, for instance, somebody attacks your person, you are allowed and encouraged to defend yourself. Similarly, if someone attacks in a more intellectual fashion, Islam facilitates and encourages intellectual defence and intellectual counter-attack.

This is not to say that turning the other cheek is invalid or inferior. It is simply an alternate method of dealing with injustice.

I mean (although it didnt happen in England) tat silly business of Allah being insulted by a teddy bear being named Mohammed when I thought it was one of the commonst names for a boy - like the English JOHN.
That was indeed insane. Especially because the non-Muslim teacher's entirely Muslim class suggested the name.

The other sad things that really irritates and alienates we Brits is Burka covered women holding placards abusing British soldiers as they march past (Luton?).
Yeah, I don't agree with hurling abuse at returning British soldiers. If anyone needs hurling abuse at, it's the people in Downing Street.

This one act has brought out Brit street mobs to make things much worse for immigrants. Then, yesterday, I read about a 20 years old women ( presume she is female..) going to register for a college cout dressed from head to foot in a burka and refusing to even show her face for identification which seems so incredibly stupid that I can only assume sh was put up to this by others who want to push, push, push the boundaries acceptable to the average Brit.
No, she explicitly said she would show her face for identification purposes.

I expect she will appeal against being refused registration - and the appeal will be allowed "in case it offends people of other faiths".
I don't know how you came to that conclusion, given that the other major British burkha case (with a niqaab-wearing teacher) did not end in that fashion.

In my town we now have a "Tree of Light" instead of an annual Christmas tree "in case th latter offends those of other faiths" .
I suggest you write to your local council voicing your displeasure at this politically correct nonsense. That's not sarcasm. This sort of thing is so desperate not to offend that it creates offence. I've never met any Muslims in Britain offended at the sight of Christmas decorations. I can only surmise it's the result of some well-meaning (or not so well-meaning) official meddling.

Have you considered how much abuse Christianity takes, every minute of every day through blasphemies and cynicism? And God, in his infinite wisdom allows that whereas muslims seem to feel the need to take revenge - as if Allah is unable to handle it and deal with it....
You're sliding into generalisations here, lumping all Muslims together. I assume that by 'revenge' you mean 'violence and intimidation'. That is not what Islam teaches for the modern attacks against it. And to be honest, these modern attacks on Islam are not so different from old attacks on it. The religion has survived.

Dop Muslims ever actually pray for their enemies, do good to those that hurt you and despise you etc?
I personally pray that those people can be guided. I try to be a good, honest, hardworking citizen. This behaviour is a requisite of Islam and is a requisite of being human.

To summerise, I wish muslim immigrants would just try and assimilate theselves into English life without constanty seeking concessions. OR, are we Brits making misakes by merely thinking that you want Tree of Light etc concessions when you don't want to patronised?
It's not a simple issue. I would say for every crazily outraged and unjustified Muslim complaint, there is also a well-meaning but naive official trying desparately to stop people fighting but causing far more trouble in so doing.
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Rasema
10-27-2009, 07:28 PM
Allah's religion is serious, so are the Muslims.Yes, we are very strange to the mankind because Islam is a religion of God.
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zakirs
10-27-2009, 08:30 PM
I repeat that the real problem is not the immigrant himself (although this IS now of much political concern) but the perceived untrustworthiness problem he /she brings with him/her. "He is foreign, where does he come from?, what's he doing here?, is he on Benefit?, does he speak English?, loads of relatives waiting to follow him?, on bogus student visas?, several 'wives' being claimed as dependants? etc etc". Prejudice? YES but we need to be convinced otherwise. So this IS a problem for YOU to resolve. If any one (or two?) of you came to live next to me, that would be quite ok but I dont want the whole street, and those surrounding it, to be swamped like is seems to be in some, mainly northern, cities. I am trying hard to overcome my prejudices but need your reassurances. The speed with which immigrants have come and are still coming (and staying) is far to high for us to handle, thus the resentment. Muslims want to be accepted but please understand why we are wary - and living in Asian ghettos and speaking unidentifiable foreign languages doesn't help...
Brother , the main problem is the kind of conditions asians come from.. You see the standards of living in asia ( subcontinent ) is not so high , so people come there for better lives for themselves and their kids.So , legally or illegally they try to get the best future for their kids.So its more desperation than malice in their hearts.

I realise that this forum is a religous one rather than a political arena but because your faith and our immigration worries are so closely linked please forgive me for using this forum but it needs to be said in the hope of a better future - for my grandchildren if not for me...
Dont worry ,
We will more than glad to clear your doubts.Religion includes society and harmony :) .
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Raphael
10-27-2009, 08:46 PM
Good day to you Thomas,

May I interject momentarily, as I thought your post was interesting.


You have quoted that being a Christian is being submissive, turning the other cheek etc. Although you have quoted a verse in the Bible (Matthew 5:38), any good Christian knows that a single speech delivered by Jesus (in this case the Sermon on the Plain) does not constitute his entire message.

Jesus was a revolutionary, a visionary, and without doubt one of the greatest men to ever walk this earth. What he was not however was a pacifist. The greatest struggle for us fault ridden human beings is not a physical one, but a spiritual one.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Ephesians 6:12
Bible



I have heard countless Muslims saying Islam is a peaceful religion. Yes it is, however peace is not about pacifism.

The greatness of Rome was characterised by:

Si vis pacem, para bellum


If you wish for peace, prepare for war

It is a heartily Christian concept to fight the good fight (Timothy 6:12).

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Edmund Burke

Peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice.

Benedict Spinoza

Yes Islam does have an element to it that some may consider militant, but this side is to fight for all that is good in this world, and to protect the desolate, the poor, and the oppressed.

I do not think Jesus would have disapproved of the use of force against an evil enemy who uses force.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven ... A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Ecclesiastes 3:1,8
Bible


The most widely quoted verse in the Quran is from surah al-Baqarah (chapter 2: verse 191) "Slay them wherever you find them" - I'm sure you've come across that a few times. I know I have!

What you will not find however is the verse before (2:190);

Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.


and the verse after (2:192)


But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


To say Islam is a militant faith is correct, if Judaism and Christianity are also militant faiths. However I argue that all three of the sister faiths are in fact militant, when need be, upon God's command, and forgiving, when need be, at God's command.

Is that not the aim of any religion claiming to be from God - the obedience to His Will?


As for the tree of light, my friend I am sure you will not find a single Muslim who would be offended with calling a Christmas tree a Christmas tree! These actions are done by pen pushing meddlers who want to stir up the good indigenous folk like yourself, and make them believe Muslims are trying to take over!

Have you ever heard a Muslim asking for a Christmas tree to be renamed?


Finally every religion has a group of hotheads, with too much time on their hands, and a definite belief that they are acting the Will of God by shouting angry slogans, and holding up ironic placards. They have as much approval in the Muslim community, as they do in the English community, but that wouldn't be a good story for the newspapers would it!


Peace my brother in humanity, Lord knows we are in need of it.


My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

Proverbs 3: 1-2
Bible
Reply

mahi
10-27-2009, 10:24 PM
Thomas,

Why do people blow themselves up? I'm sure its because they are in fact mentally retarted, because thats why they do such a small thing. Like I said before, you see what you see in the media. You and I know nothing of how it is for those people. The people fighting the war in Afghanistan? What war? All it is is some group called NATO of the British, Americans and some other pawns going around in big helicopters doing what they wish. They're not fighting an enemy, they never even had one helicopter, ever. They're fighting these guys who've had their homeland invaded, and are getting killed with no equal defence. Everytime a British or American soldier dies, the world press talks about it like its some sort of Genocide. Everytime a hundred people in Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, Pakistan, everytime a hundred muslims die, you'd be lucky to see anyone in the media give a ****. You want injustice, you got it. You want politics, you got it.

And the problem here is quite clear. Its up to US to clear your misconceptions? Thats rubbish. All your ideas are just filled with the basic ideas of racism. Thats all it is, racism. Its not immigration, its racism. For some reason you see Asian people as some other sort of being, you don't want them near 'your' country. You say its a problem for us to resolve? No its not, its upto you to resolve your racist ideas. If you had a say white person who looked a bit English immigrating, you'd have no problem at all. You just see difference and think there's a problem. So yeah, its upto you to solve. You cannot seriously put it down to immigrants being trouble, because then that is serious double standard. Sure, they bring problems, but have you seen the English people? Are they some great people? Some much of English youth has so much wrong with it, but you won't contest against any of that. Why? Because, again its racism that's the problem here. You'll never have all immigrants being perfect, if you want to carry on with your views, you can. So yeah, its upto YOU whether you want to carry on being like that or not.

Finally, I want to get to a more important point. You follow Christianity don't you? Its more important to you than any sort of ethnic values right? So answer me this, does it say anywhere in Christianity that certain land is the right of only certain people? Because you speak as though you are the God of England, and everyone else must worship you or go. No, even though I don't have much knowledge of Christianity, I doubt it says specific people have specific land. No, I'm sure Christianity sees everyone as humans. You have no greater right or belonging in a country than the next man.

Oh and for quoting, you just click the 'QUOTE' button underneath a user's post. You can put more than one quote into a post by using the multi quote button next to the quote button. Though how you can quote specific parts of a users post is a bit more complex I'd think. I think you'd probably use the opening and closing tags as shown below around each part of the text you want to quote, then put your message, and then put the same tags around the next piece of text too.
Originally Posted by Thomas
texthere
The first part of the tags with the username and numbers will show when you click the quote button for a post. Just try it out as I'm not to sure myself, but just use the 'Preview Post' button when typing a post to see how the post looks before submitting.
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mahi
10-27-2009, 10:25 PM
Hmm, didn't know the word '****' was censored. Just thought I'd add this since it looks like more not so friendly f word has been used.
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Thomas
10-27-2009, 11:44 PM
Sorry. Cant agree with you about our military presence in Afgan. We are there fighting the taliban who are forcing afgan farmers to produce 85% of the worlds poppy heroin to provide the massive funds to pay for training camps for terrorists to then come here and perpetrate atrocities like be have already seen here and in USA. The Taliban couldnt care less about how many junkies their poppys create - after all, WE are their enemies because we wont allow their way of life (Sharia law? to prevail. You know, the kind of regime where women are treated second rate, girls dont get an education and religous police dictating... The Afgan farmers would rather grow an alternative crop but risk having their fingers cut off for voting and death for defying the taliban. Afgan cant even hold a proper election because of the threats. Our soldiers are being killed trying to protect us from people we would rather not let come here. Problem is, at the moment, we dont know who are the potential terrorists and who are the ordinary nice guys so everybody is treated with suspicion. We are entitled to try and secure our own borders.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-27-2009, 11:55 PM
Greetings Thomas

There is nothing wrong about Shariah Law. What some people do doesn't mean its Shariah. Women are NOT second class citizens as per Islam and we don't condone drugs either. I really think u have a lot of reading to do...:) Please please do not mix up Islam with what certain Muslims do...judge Islam by the sources, not the masses. Do take the time to read or just ask questions. We will help..

Peace
Reply

Raphael
10-27-2009, 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Sorry. Cant agree with you about our military presence in Afgan
I'm a little confused to what your reasoning for a British presence in Afghanistan is....

Your deep rooted sense of well being for the Afghan farmers, or your unrelenting desire to see the emancipation of Afghan women, um I'm a little confused?

If at all Afghans are coming into this country, its by claiming asylum from a destabilised country from a foreign invasion.

:hmm:
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جوري
10-28-2009, 12:01 AM
Perhaps England would like all that poppy for itself to force yet another nation into opium trade?




During the 17th and 18th centuries Britain developed a massive balance of trade/trade deficit problem with China. British ships would return from China full of tea, silk and porcelain. To balance the trade they should have been able to take British produced goods back to China. But the Chinese government at the time, the Qing Dynasty, placed extremely high taxes and restrictions on British manufactured goods. The only thing that they would take was hard silver (ingots, not currency).
Britian didn't have enough silver to pay for all tea, silk and porcelain they wanted. So they had to buy it with their gold-back currency from other Europeans. Therefore the price of silver went up in Europe and as a result the cost of Chinese products bought with that silver rose as well. It was an inflationary spiral. In a nutshell: the British were bankrupting themselves because they had no commodity that the Chinese wanted to trade for.
http://www.walkthruhistory.com/home/...opium-war.html

haven't read anything you have written, and I am not really sure I want to, or if I'd care even as I have a loathsome attitude toward your little now 'overly crowded island'-- I rather hope it pays for its long criminal history, which it is fond of deflecting through projection than addressing the real reason of where it finds itself modern day...

I am a Muslim woman, I'd like for you to
1- Stop speaking for me or assume my position in Islam (taliban or not)
2- take a good look at why your little Island is suffering its current plight
3- analyze on a level deeper than the usual sophomoric slogans why it is other people behave the way they do and the actual reason behind their attitude toward your own people.
4- ridiculous at best to speak of peace when your entire history is founded on anything but?... war is inevitable when at conflict.. and it takes at least two parties to create conflict!

all the best!
Reply

Raphael
10-28-2009, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Perhaps England would like all that poppy for itself to force yet another nation into opium trade?

Ahhh you beat me to it!
Reply

mahi
10-28-2009, 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
o
1- Stop speaking for me or assume my position in Islam (taliban or not)
Very good point.

And what of the rest of my post?

Originally Posted by mahi
And the problem here is quite clear. Its up to US to clear your misconceptions? Thats rubbish. All your ideas are just filled with the basic ideas of racism. Thats all it is, racism. Its not immigration, its racism. For some reason you see Asian people as some other sort of being, you don't want them near 'your' country. You say its a problem for us to resolve? No its not, its upto you to resolve your racist ideas. If you had a say white person who looked a bit English immigrating, you'd have no problem at all. You just see difference and think there's a problem. So yeah, its upto you to solve. You cannot seriously put it down to immigrants being trouble, because then that is serious double standard. Sure, they bring problems, but have you seen the English people? Are they some great people? Some much of English youth has so much wrong with it, but you won't contest against any of that. Why? Because, again its racism that's the problem here. You'll never have all immigrants being perfect, if you want to carry on with your views, you can. So yeah, its upto YOU whether you want to carry on being like that or not.

Finally, I want to get to a more important point. You follow Christianity don't you? Its more important to you than any sort of ethnic values right? So answer me this, does it say anywhere in Christianity that certain land is the right of only certain people? Because you speak as though you are the God of England, and everyone else must worship you or go. No, even though I don't have much knowledge of Christianity, I doubt it says specific people have specific land. No, I'm sure Christianity sees everyone as humans. You have no greater right or belonging in a country than the next man.
As much of a sort of personal attack that may be, I'd like to ask you the same message again. As a Christian, are you ever told anywhere that you have a divine right or any right to any land? If you're really worried about over crowdedness on your little island, go somewhere else.
Reply

Thomas
10-28-2009, 12:35 AM
Mahi
On re-reading your reply to me, I can see now that you dont understand English rhetoric... when something is put within inverted commas it is a quotation that OTHER people say... So when I said "what are they doing here, where do they come from, are they on Benefits, will they send for loads of 'wives' etc" I am trying to tell you what many OTHER judgemental English people are saying in order for you to understand how many many Brits feel about the subject, because they are, and wish to remain, uninformed of Asian viewpoints.. I COULD also be one of them but by using this website I am trying to become better informed. You must not take everything I write as personal..... But I do know how millions of other English people feel and am trying to convey these feelings to you, in the hope of a solution. You have to face the fact that the BNP polled almost one million votes and at the next election they could well receive 5 million or even more because of the virtual lack of direct communication with immigrants. THEY are saying "We want our contry back" So before you fire off another "that is racist" reply please understand that I have just said "THEY are saying.....". I have already told you that what I have written is without malice and need to answer in the same vein if you want to keep your dialogue with English born people open..... I dont mind WHAT race you are as long as you are prepared to accept our customs and assimilate so that we are not suspicious of you and yours, which is a quite natural thing for those not used to change quite so quickly. And that doesnt mean that we want to stop you building mosques as long as we dont find that the people in charge (immams?) are like that fellow with a hook for a hand and who I think is now in prison for sedition or something similar. And didnt he blow his own hand of whilst preparing something nasty? I know he may be just a one-off extremist and a complete charlatan but hearing about this sort of cleric worries us Brits. HOWEVER! To balance up my 'prejudice' I have to tell you that in the 1930s there was a Church of England vicar who used to preach in his church on a Sunday and then go to London (Soho?) to visit prostitues, taking the church collection money with him! It sounds almost funny now but the discovery was a great shock to everybody at the time.... My parents remember the case. I am on this site to gather Asian points of view and to be better informed, not to create problems. But it is no good being patronising - one needs to speak plainly.
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GuestFellow
10-28-2009, 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Cant agree with you about our military presence in Afgan. We are there fighting the taliban who are forcing afgan farmers to produce 85% of the worlds poppy heroin to provide the massive funds to pay for training camps for terrorists to then come here and perpetrate atrocities like be have already seen here and in USA. The Taliban couldnt care less about how many junkies their poppys create - after all, WE are their enemies because we wont allow their way of life (Sharia law? to prevail. You know, the kind of regime where women are treated second rate, girls dont get an education and religous police dictating... The Afgan farmers would rather grow an alternative crop but risk having their fingers cut off for voting and death for defying the taliban. Afgan cant even hold a proper election because of the threats. Our soldiers are being killed trying to protect us from people we would rather not let come here. Problem is, at the moment, we dont know who are the potential terrorists and who are the ordinary nice guys so everybody is treated with suspicion. We are entitled to try and secure our own borders.

Well I think you should know that America had once supported the Taliban and gave them weapons. Now the Taliban have used those weapons against the Americans. I find it odd that a ''brutal'' regime like the Taliban was supported by the American government once upon a time...not every member of the Taliban are bad people. Yvonne Ridley explained that the Taliban when captured her did not mistreat her and were in fact kinder than compared how American government treat those in Guantanamo bay. So do not absorb everything that the media says...they love twisting the news... more PUBLICITY = ££££ :Evil:

You cannot simply go to a country and establish democracy at the point of a gun. It does not work. You end establishing a corrupt government which shall put the needs of the foreign invaders as their top priority. Democracy does not mean that they will bend down and live your way of life. In fact they can rebel against foreign occupiers and choose to live the complete opposite way of life than Westerners. Democracy is not a means of establishing your views on others. It is about the people themselves establishing what is right for them as a majority.

I don't think you know much about the Shariah law. Women under Shariah are allowed to be educated...Taliban have implemented their own views. You need to distinguish between actions of Muslims and Islamic principles. If a Muslim say everyone should jump off a cliff that does not mean the Qur'an commands anyone to do so.

America and Britain are making a mess of everything. The American government and support from its allies are randomly labelling countries as terrorist states (Axis of Evil), invading countries like Iraq and now threatening sanctions with Iran. Honestly it is a big joke. America is infatuated with Israel, and implements its policies on what the Israeli government likes to happen. America continues to dig a bigger hole for itself and Britain is tagging along. It is just a big mess....your creating your own terrorists.

Good luck to Britain and America....they'll need it.

EDIT: sorry for the retarded typos. I'm not feeling very well...
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Thomas
10-28-2009, 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by mahi
Very good point.

And what of the rest of my post?



As much of a sort of personal attack that may be, I'd like to ask you the same message again. As a Christian, are you ever told anywhere that you have a divine right or any right to any land? If you're really worried about over crowdedness on your little island, go somewhere else.
We are talking about the here and now in reality, not what happened 200/300 years ago. As for telling me to go somewhere else when this country is my birthplace. that is ridiculous. As a Christian I believe God made me and in His wisdom placed me here so I suppose you could say that that was 'divine' and if I went to live in another country I would try and adopt the customs of that country or NOT go there... I have not been rude enough to suggest that if you were not born in England, that you might consider returning to your birth place.... IF you ARE an immigrant, please tell me why you came here and why you chose UK over loads of other European countries with similar customs to ours. I am not saying you shouldn't have chosen US, just the rationale behind it. And I dont mind what law, Sharia or other, that you or Gossamer wish to adopt as long as it is not inflicted on the rest of us and particularly on my grand and great-grand daughters.... unless by then they CHOOSE to embrace Islam and whatever advantages optional sharia law offers girls (or even boys) at that time. I am assuming that your mention of the poppies is rehtorical - all I will say is that I dont mind if I never ever see an opium poppy - if it were possible, I would love the Americans to killer spray the lot once a fortnight. The only poppies I am interested in are the ones on sale between now and November 11th. Harmless but very representative of people from many nations who died to give us the freedom to conduct correspondance on sites like this without police (religous, nazi or otherwise) preventing free speech. And the only law I want to embrace here is uk parliamentary law that I helped vote for along with millions of others. That's called democracy...
Reply

جوري
10-28-2009, 01:46 AM
And I dont mind what law, Sharia or other, that you or Gossamer wish to adopt as long as it is not inflicted on the rest of us and particularly on my grand and great-grand daughters.... unless by then they CHOOSE to embrace Islam and whatever advantages optional sharia law offers girls (or even boys) at that time. I am assuming that your mention of the poppies is rehtorical - all I will say is that I dont mind if I never ever see an opium poppy - if it were possible, I would love the Americans to killer spray the lot once a fortnight. The only poppies I am interested in are the ones on sale between now and November 11th. Harmless but very representative of people from many nations who died to give us the freedom to conduct correspondance on sites like this without police (religous, nazi or otherwise) preventing free speech. And the only law I want to embrace here is uk parliamentary law that I helped vote for along with millions of others. That's called democracy
.. what happened in the past is what has shaped your present and in all likelihood your future .. in fact your little colonial settler state was handing out citizenship to people for such purposes as using them for wars and as agents and then denying them their citizenship later and boasting having gone to wars without losing a single British soldier.. you should research your history on Hong Kong & India amongst other places.. it didn't really happen 200-300 yrs ago.. Are you simply unread in history or is all that freedom to inebriate deeply affected your mamillary bodies?

as for free speech, it seems to only be manifest when you have something derogatory or condescending to say, further highlights you as a hypocrite which I have no doubt that you are, given any point of opposition is met with the expected platitudes and irrelevant bromides.

Now, I don't have to adapt to anything your laws, like your social mores mean absolutely nothing to me, firstly I don't live in your little colonial settler state to acquiesce to its laws, secondly given how incredibly blue collar you are, as are the people who often share your views, I guarantee that it is my tax money that allows you said freedoms to sit in your home like a loafer and complain on who isn't exactly like you and why they are detestable..

Unlike most people here who truly have a genuine desire to reach out and put things aright with your ilk, I personally couldn't give a **** what you think or what you want to understand.. simple history tells me, that nothing is going to be pleasing to you and I personally have no interest in trying!...

I assume a God fearing worldly christian like you can at least grant us the courtesy to write in paragraphs? rather painful to sit through one of your posts for more than the obvious reasons..

all the best

p.s. my comment on poppy wasn't in rhetoric, I fail to see how you can construe it as such?.. further, 'poppy' has many medicinal usages that I have no interest to go into with you or on this forum.. it is really not up to you whether or not it should be burned down by the Nordic or the Americans... It isn't just used to enslave people and force them to adopt an open door policy so your tootin' queen can have some tea with her biscotti ..........
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Thomas
10-28-2009, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Well I think you should know that America had once supported the Taliban and gave them weapons. Now the Taliban have used those weapons against the Americans. I find it odd that a ''brutal'' regime like the Taliban was supported by the American government once upon a time...not everyone member of the Taliban are bad people. Yvonne Ridley explained that the Taliban when captured her did not mistreat her and were in fact kinder than compared how American government treat those in Guantanamo bay. So do not absorb everything that the media says...they love twisting the news... more PUBLICITY = ££££ :Evil:

You cannot simply go to a country and establish democracy at the point of a gun. It does not work. You end establishing a corrupt government which shall put the needs of the foreign invaders as their top priority. Democracy does not mean that they will bend down and live your way of life. In fact they can rebel against foreign occupiers and choose to live the complete opposite way of life than Westerners. Democracy is not a means of establishing your views on others. It is about the people themselves establishing what is right for them as a majority.

I don't think you know much about the Shariah law. Women under Shariah are allowed to be educated...Taliban have implemented their own views. You need to distinguish between actions of Muslims and Islamic principles. If a Muslim say everyone should jump off a cliff that does not mean the Qur'an commands anyone to do so.

America and Britain are making a mess of everything. The American government and support from its allies are randomly labelling countries as terrorist states (Axis of Evil), invading countries like Iraq and now threatening sanctions with Iran. Honestly it is a big joke. America is infatuated with Israel, and implements its policies on what the Israeli government likes to happen. America continues to dig a bigger hole for itself and Britain is tagging along. It is just a big mess....your creating your own terrorists.

Good luck to Britain and America....they'll need it.
Well with the bloke in charge of Iran (Ayatollah?) apparantly wanting to "wipe Israel of the face of the world" and wanting access to nuclear weapons, I am not surprised the Americans are supporting Israel. I am old enough to remember all the surrounding Arab countries being daft enough to think they could catch Israel with its trousers down on their Yom Kipper day. They all suffered a massive defeat.. I believe Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon decided they had better sign a peace treaty with Israel. Not sure about Syria. What I do remember is that before the 6 day war, the Syrian "army" used to specialise in shooting dead unarmed Israeli farmers as they plowed their fields below the Golan Heights and then wondered why Israel eventually had to deal with them too.. Not sure about Iraq but at least the man in charge who was found hiding in a hole with a 6 month old beard was found and hanged by their own people. Remember those two 'brave' sons he had? Now we have another 'brave' tyrant just going on trial in The Hague - he was also found in disguise with a very long beard. They really bravely face the music when their luck runs out, dont they (not)?

But we are getting off track with all this talk of Iraq, poppies, sharia law and suggestion that I should leave the country of my birth and "go somewhere else"
Lets find a way to convince the many millions of worried English men that those who have come, and continue to come, from other parts of the globe will not stand and abuse our returning soldiers, will learn English where neccessary, will hopefully spread themselves out a bit, will decline unwanted concessions to ethnic minorities and drive away all the bogeys and hang-ups that we read about... Who makes up all these stories?
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Raphael
10-28-2009, 02:34 AM
Dear Thomas,

Once upon a time there lived a boy that thought the whole wide world was just 10 years old. Little did he know that the world around him was shaped as a result of centuries of actions.

Many immigrants in this country are third generation children of people from the Indian subcontinent who were bought to rebuild this nation after the war.

In fact I am sure they would all just go home once they are compensated for their effort in a war they had nothing to do with - the commonwealth armies took part in WW2 remember!

Most Muslims are actually in favour of controlled immigration. Pity Labour are smoking some unearthly cocktail of wild herbs and running this country a mess.

Anyway I shant intrude Gossamer skye's systematic decimation of your arguments.

I shall be your shoulder to cry on when she's done :statisfie



p.s I have not visited a single country where British ex pats adopt the local way of life! In fact there are literally thousands of English people living in the middle east. They live only among themselves, stick to their English way of life, and their English dresses, and can't speak a word of Arabic - I know, the cheek!
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GuestFellow
10-28-2009, 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Well with the bloke in charge of Iran (Ayatollah?) apparantly wanting to "wipe Israel of the face of the world" and wanting access to nuclear weapons, I am not surprised the Americans are supporting Israel.
President Ahmadinejad never said that he wants to see Israel wiped off the map militarily but to see the Zionist regime collapse like how the Soviet Union collapsed.

There is NO evidence to suggest that Iran has developing nuclear weapon to wipe Israel off the map. That's stupid. President Ahmadinejad supports the Palestinians and an attack on Israel will surely affect Palestinians. Listen to his interviews...one with Larry King and the other with Katie Couric.

If you look at Israel, they have a 40 year policy that no foreign force can inspect their nuclear weapons. Makes me laugh that Americans do not allow Iran to develop nuclear energy but don't care when Israel is making dangerous weapons.

This is another lie to go to war with Iran. Just like the same allegations made against the leader of Iraq but no WMD were found.

I am old enough to remember all the surrounding Arab countries being daft enough to think they could catch Israel with its trousers down on their Yom Kipper day. They all suffered a massive defeat.. I believe Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon decided they had better sign a peace treaty with Israel. Not sure about Syria. What I do remember is that before the 6 day war, the Syrian "army" used to specialise in shooting dead unarmed Israeli farmers as they plowed their fields below the Golan Heights and then wondered why Israel eventually had to deal with them too.. Not sure about Iraq but at least the man in charge who was found hiding in a hole with a 6 month old beard was found and hanged by their own people. Remember those two 'brave' sons he had? Now we have another 'brave' tyrant just going on trial in The Hague - he was also found in disguise with a very long beard. They really bravely face the music when their luck runs out, dont they (not)?
Both sides fought against each other. Israel time and time against has used excessive force against the Palestinian civilians and committed war crimes. They ignore Human Rights reports and are in denial. Israel is stupid to think they can fool people with their lies...oh wait they actually do fool some people. :hmm: They are loosing support year by year. Israel is tyrant and controls other nations and is not ready for criticism.

Lets find a way to convince the many millions of worried English men that those who have come, and continue to come, from other parts of the globe will not stand and abuse our returning soldiers, will learn English where neccessary, will hopefully spread themselves out a bit, will decline unwanted concessions to ethnic minorities and drive away all the bogeys and hang-ups that we read about... Who makes up all these stories?
Not sure where your going along with this.....
Reply

Afg
10-28-2009, 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Sorry. Cant agree with you about our military presence in Afgan. We are there fighting the taliban who are forcing afgan farmers to produce 85% of the worlds poppy heroin to provide the massive funds to pay for training camps for terrorists to then come here and perpetrate atrocities like be have already seen here and in USA. The Taliban couldnt care less about how many junkies their poppys create - after all, WE are their enemies because we wont allow their way of life (Sharia law? to prevail. You know, the kind of regime where women are treated second rate, girls dont get an education and religous police dictating... The Afgan farmers would rather grow an alternative crop but risk having their fingers cut off for voting and death for defying the taliban. Afgan cant even hold a proper election because of the threats. Our soldiers are being killed trying to protect us from people we would rather not let come here. Problem is, at the moment, we dont know who are the potential terrorists and who are the ordinary nice guys so everybody is treated with suspicion. We are entitled to try and secure our own borders.
Hello, welcome to IslamicBoard :) I hope you will benefit and see a good side of Muslims. I quoted you here because i think it necessary that i should say with the coming of foreign troops in my country, the heroin percentage had actually increased. It was the taliban who had tried to reduce the heroin percentage and they had amazingly succeeded. That was until the USA came and the number rose again. Why wont you allow our shariah to prevail? After all its our country and we rule it how we want, that is by the shariah, the Islamic way. Do you know many Afghans are against these foreign troops in my country? All you do is target innocent people at weddings and other ceremonies, and each time that happens, you have more resistance. Your soldiers are being killed, making them believe they died for a good cause. But they are just wasting it. The number of these soldiers dying is clearly hidden by the media. If its so much about what the Afghan people want, then we don't have to find foreign troops in Afghanistan. I do apologize for bombarding you with this post as i see you have many other things you would probably reply to. Once again, welcome and enjoy your stay :)
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Afg
10-28-2009, 02:52 AM
In the shariah girls do get an education and women are not treated second rate in Islam. And religious police dictating :hmm:
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Thomas
10-28-2009, 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
.. what happened in the past is what has shaped your present and in all likelihood your future .. in fact your little colonial settler state was handing out citizenship to people for such purposes as using them for wars and as agents and then denying them their citizenship later and boasting having gone to wars without losing a single British soldier.. you should research your history on Hong Kong & India amongst other places.. it didn't really happen 200-300 yrs ago.. Are you simply unread in history or is all that freedom to inebriate deeply affected your mamillary bodies?

as for free speech, it seems to only be manifest when you have something derogatory or condescending to say, further highlights you as a hypocrite which I have no doubt that you are, given any point of opposition is met with the expected platitudes and irrelevant bromides.

Now, I don't have to adapt to anything your laws, like your social mores mean absolutely nothing to me, firstly I don't live in your little colonial settler state to acquiesce to its laws, secondly given how incredibly blue collar you are, as are the people who often share your views, I guarantee that it is my tax money that allows you said freedoms to sit in your home like a loafer and complain on who isn't exactly like you and why they are detestable..

Unlike most people here who truly have a genuine desire to reach out and put things aright with your ilk, I personally couldn't give a **** what you think or what you want to understand.. simple history tells me, that nothing is going to be pleasing to you and I personally have no interest in trying!...

I assume a God fearing worldly christian like you can at least grant us the courtesy to write in paragraphs? rather painful to sit through one of your posts for more than the obvious reasons..

all the best

p.s. my comment on poppy wasn't in rhetoric, I fail to see how you can construe it as such?.. further, 'poppy' has many medicinal usages that I have no interest to go into with you or on this forum.. it is really not up to you whether or not it should be burned down by the Nordic or the Americans... It isn't just used to enslave people and force them to adopt an open door policy so your tootin' queen can have some tea with her biscotti ..........
OK. You dont live in UK so why you jumping out of your pram when the concerns we have here dont involve you? And how can your taxes support me or the Queen if you dont live here? Your mention of the colour of my shirt collar is lost on me. Does that mean I am a wealthy snob or poverty stricken? I think my grandparents 1870-1945 did use the phrase 'blue collar' to denote manual workers but I have never used or liked the term as we all work one way or another these days. I am merely trying to put over the worries that English people have in the hope that we can overcome our prejudices. You seem to lose your temper and s****r if you read another person's point of view. If you did come here you would get loads of that. Although grammatically incorrect Ive kept this post all one paragraph as recommended by you. Goodnight and God bless....
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Beardo
10-28-2009, 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by Afg
In the shariah girls do get an education and women are not treated second rate in Islam. And religious police dictating :hmm:
In this we learn the importance of education, specifically of the Qur’aan and Sunnah. As far as education for young children is concerned, it can only be accomplished through the proper education for girls so they can carry it on to their children during motherhood. The sisters of today are the bedrock of the society, but only if they receive the proper Ta’leem. We are to put our cultural beliefs or other constraints behind, and look towards the words of true Islamic faith. Sometimes as parents, we put more emphasis on education for the males over the females. This indeed is a very sad state of affairs. In this society, if we are aware of the educational means specifically for girls, we should give our utmost support both financially and physically. Insha’Allah in this way, the chastity and dignity of our Muslimahs will be preserved. Though this might seem anti-feminine, the truth is that the females can be of a more fragile situation and are more likely of being vulnerable. May Allah save and preserve the Iman and Ilm for the children of our sisters in Islam.


The Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhe Wasallam) had also ensured the education of the women by devoting one full day for women so they can seek knowledge. He said “Oh Assembly of women, give Sadaqah and spend in charity in the way of Allah as I have been shown that majority of the inhabitants of the fire of Hell will be women.” (Women will also be of majority in the gardens of heaven as well, as it is revealed.) The female companions said that as soon as this was told, the women literally began flinging their jewelry onto a sheet which was laid, as they had adorned themselves on that day of Eid.
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جوري
10-28-2009, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by Thomas
OK. You dont live in UK so why you jumping out of your pram when the concerns we have here dont involve you?
I am a Muslim, on an Islamic forum, naturally the affairs of Muslims world wide affect me.. it involves me very much as I have a thing against half-wits with a superiority complex and very poor attention to details.
And how can your taxes support me or the Queen if you dont live here?
$230 B of my tax and others like me have gone to support the war of which your poodles are an accomplice and profiteers.
Your mention of the colour of my shirt collar is lost on me. Does that mean I am a wealthy snob or poverty stricken? I think my grandparents 1870-1945 did use the phrase 'blue collar' to denote manual workers but I have never used or liked the term as we all work one way or another these days.
Nothing to do with your wealth and everything with your upbringing and level of education!

I am merely trying to put over the worries that English people have in the hope that we can overcome our prejudices. You seem to lose your temper and s****r if you read another person's point of view. If you did come here you would get loads of that. Although grammatically incorrect Ive kept this post all one paragraph as recommended by you. Goodnight and God bless....
I have frequented your country and only met with the prepossessed in the crappy parts where some use scape goats to conceal their own inadequacies, and even if their wishes at a Hitler's dream type of homogeneous society were to suddenly be granted, you'd find them suffering the same plight.. as I stated earlier, it is a matter of expectations and upbringing more-so that what the muslims in your backyard are doing or not doing..

all the best....
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Thomas
10-28-2009, 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I am a Muslim, on an Islamic forum, naturally the affairs of Muslims world wide affect me.. it involves me very much as I have a thing against half-wits with a superiority complex and very poor attention to details.

$230 B of my tax and others like me have gone to support the war of which your poodles are an accomplice and profiteers.

Nothing to do with your wealth and everything with your upbringing and level of education!
I have frequented your country and only met with your type in the crappy parts where some use scape goats to corneal their own inadequacies, and even if their wishes at a Hitler's dream type of homogeneous society were to suddenly be granted, you'd find them still suffering the same fate.. as I stated earlier, it is a matter of expectations and upbringing than the muslims in your backyard..

all the best....
OK. I can see that you are upset and I will turn the other cheek....
I wonder where the 'crappy parts' of the UK are.
You do need to develop the ability to accept others points of view. Your semi-abuse doesnt change the fact that we in UK (55 million in a very small island) feel somewhat overwhelmed by more than 2 million more immigrants in recent times and still no government plan to deal with the future. Other European countries including France (twice the size of UK with same population), Holland and Denmark are showing similar concerns. Apart from numbers, the real fear of a sizeable majority is that it is changing our way of life. I appreciate that much of this may be, in reality, unjustified but the prejudice is there and needs to be overcome by some means or other. It is no good just covering it up for conveniences sake and it is going to be a major issue at the forthcoming election within the next 6 months. It is now 4am here and hope you will feel better by the time I wake up again. I have kept it all in one paragraph....
Reply

جوري
10-28-2009, 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by Thomas
OK. I can see that you are upset and I will turn the other cheek....
I wonder where the 'crappy parts' of the UK are.
You do need to develop the ability to accept others points of view. Your semi-abuse doesnt change the fact that we in UK (55 million in a very small island) feel somewhat overwhelmed by more than 2 million more immigrants in recent times and still no government plan to deal with the future. Other European countries including France (twice the size of UK with same population), Holland and Denmark are showing similar concerns. Apart from numbers, the real fear of a sizeable majority is that it is changing our way of life. I appreciate that much of this may be, in reality, unjustified but the prejudice is there and needs to be overcome by some means or other. It is no good just covering it up for conveniences sake and it is going to be a major issue at the forthcoming election within the next 6 months. It is now 4am here and hope you will feel better by the time I wake up again. I have kept it all in one paragraph....

Greetings,

I am not upset at all, it is already 23 mins past my bedtime and I don't wish to expend anymore time on this than I already have, I find the topic boring amongst other things I just simply don't like your bravado or your attitude given you are a guest here!...
if immigration bothers you, than I imagine you should take your voting voice and request that the party you are voting for complies with your wishes?.. unless you are suggesting some sort of genocide (I wouldn't put it past England) or creating an air of miasma surrounding the immigrants that you currently have to expel them (again I wouldn't put it past England) we are merely pointing out that whatever problems you are currently facing are of your own creation.. rather than *****ing about how they smell or look or worship, and then investing in illegal wars to loot them under the guise of freedom and women lib. or whatever else, I reckon it would be more prudent to focus on your current internal affairs by working together from an economic rather than a political point of view........


all the best........
Reply

Thomas
10-28-2009, 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by Afg
In the shariah girls do get an education and women are not treated second rate in Islam. And religious police dictating :hmm:
Hello Afg and thanks for your posts.I appreciate what you say.
Our problem here in UK is that with 55 million people including more than 2 million immigrants in recent years and still growing, the position has become a political (almost) timebomb.

I am sure that much of our concern is what we hear and see in the press and TV and we are worried that our way of life will change. France, Holland and Denmark have the same concerns now. France is right now trying to banish the wearing of the burka to virtually enforce the wearers to take on a more European and particularly French way of life.

I have been endeavoring to point out our concerns to others on this website, not to create problems but to try and explain exactly how millions of English people feel even thugh it is seen as prejudice. it is possible that this is not the right site for such discussions but for us Islam and the political consquences of it are very real indeed

I have nothing against sharia law within your own and anybody else's country but it is a very big no-no in UK. We are led to believe that it disadvantages women in particular and we have just spent the past 40/50 years creating equality of the sexes here. We also hear of religous police and all that kind of things. Much of it may be unneccessary wory but we dont know enough about muslim way of life. On the surface, it doesn't look very attractive. That may be quite wrong but we dont know and the current thinking is 'stop them coming'.
The growing right wing party is calling out "we want our country back".
May be I have created more problems than I need have done on this site but it has been interesting. I dont know how else to get our points of view over as to why we are worried. But we are and it is going to be a major political debate and possibly a rebellion when election time comes within the next 6 months.
These are not neccessarily all myown personal views but just how millions are thinking right now

Regards Thomas
Reply

zakirs
10-28-2009, 05:51 AM
Thomas..hello i am happy to know tht you are trying to clear your doubts , but i guess you still havent come out of the bias and suspicion what right wing media has taught you

regarding why people choose UK,

Europe is only big english speaking nation , IT has the MORAL RESPONSIBILITY since it plundered commenwealth countries for centuries leaving them with little facilities and jobs back home.

That may be quite wrong but we dont know and the current thinking is 'stop them coming'.
The growing right wing party is calling out "we want our country back".
Their actual agenda is "WE need power desperately , lets get into power by creating racial tensions" .Which sadly you people do not realise and think that people are flooding into nation.


And regards to you concerns about overcrowded england , its not over crowded as you think ( 246/km2 (48th) in population density while indian density is 349/km2 (48th) ).Its just the paranoia created by nick griffin and his hooligans.

And brother please don't talk about Israel and Palestine issue , Israel is a country that is sinning by occupying Palestine and rejecting right of Palestine's own land.Even Christian laws don't allow occupation i suppose.Dont just go on shouting that you are a Christian.Your actions and thoughts should show that you are a Christian ( which i think is very close to islam)

Note: i do not live in UK
Reply

Afg
10-28-2009, 07:51 AM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Hello Afg and thanks for your posts.I appreciate what you say.
Our problem here in UK is that with 55 million people including more than 2 million immigrants in recent years and still growing, the position has become a political (almost) timebomb.

I am sure that much of our concern is what we hear and see in the press and TV and we are worried that our way of life will change. France, Holland and Denmark have the same concerns now. France is right now trying to banish the wearing of the burka to virtually enforce the wearers to take on a more European and particularly French way of life.

I have been endeavoring to point out our concerns to others on this website, not to create problems but to try and explain exactly how millions of English people feel even thugh it is seen as prejudice. it is possible that this is not the right site for such discussions but for us Islam and the political consquences of it are very real indeed

I have nothing against sharia law within your own and anybody else's country but it is a very big no-no in UK. We are led to believe that it disadvantages women in particular and we have just spent the past 40/50 years creating equality of the sexes here. We also hear of religous police and all that kind of things. Much of it may be unneccessary wory but we dont know enough about muslim way of life. On the surface, it doesn't look very attractive. That may be quite wrong but we dont know and the current thinking is 'stop them coming'.
The growing right wing party is calling out "we want our country back".
May be I have created more problems than I need have done on this site but it has been interesting. I dont know how else to get our points of view over as to why we are worried. But we are and it is going to be a major political debate and possibly a rebellion when election time comes within the next 6 months.
These are not neccessarily all myown personal views but just how millions are thinking right now

Regards Thomas
I see where you are coming from. It must be worrying and something strange, but you want to know why are they coming to England? Many of these people believe they will have better opportunities in countries like England. Some of them do, and some of them don't. Some come for education and some come for jobs. The jobs most of them do is like catering or something similar, but then we should ask, if these people didn't do such jobs, who will do them? As for the number of Muslims, or of females wearing burka, it does not only mean that they have come from another country. Some of them are English converts.

There should not be a problem with many Muslims, and don't worry, it should not change the way you live. These Muslims see countries like England and the USA as countries where there is freedom of choice. So when they are asked not to wear a burka, like how it happened in France, there will be a problem. You see the freedom that is given in these countries should let the Muslims practice their faith freely. Then hopefully there will not be a problem. But then non-Muslims, as i see, don't understand why women would wear burka. Muslim women wear scarves or burka to protect themselves and as it says in the Qur'an to cover up. This is for the protection of both men and women. If you want to know more about this, you can make a new thread or use the search engine to see if this topic is already posted.

Misunderstandings and lack of communications may be another reason for problems between Muslim migrants and the locals.
Reply

Insaanah
10-28-2009, 08:55 AM
Please can this thread be moved to "Current Affairs", because it's no longer (and I don't think it really ever was) about comaparative religion, it's actually immigration concerns.
Reply

S_87
10-28-2009, 09:37 AM
If only they would just come here, get jobs, assimilate, build their mosques, stop abusing soldiers who return from risking their lives in Afganistan etc etc, all of which things completely alienate indiginous Brits.
youll find even non muslims may do things like this but right now only muslims seem to hit the media. yes im partly blaming the media which seems to love attacking muslims at all costs. any negative story if its muslim-itll be mentioned. how many times in breaking news have we seen muslims being arrested under terrorism laws? how many times did the 99% of them who were found to be innocent- get reported that they were innocent and it was a mistake? how many times do women wearing the veil get under fire. of all the things youve attacked innocent WOMEN-yes we're innocent!

Many of the women dont speak English and show no interest in learning the language
its interesting you say this. have you seen the brit expats in other countries? the ones who make their own communities and speak only english? :) this is exactly what many many brit people do when they move you know.

When i hear all this talk i honestly think and since youre a christian ill say this. If Jesus peace be upon him was to come here, youd reject him because he is a foreigner! from what is today the arab world/palestine. Youd reject him because what he taught many brits do not follow. youd reject him because his preachings have women wearing the hijab, he wouldnt tolerate relationships without marriage, he wouldnt allow a lot of things that you will find are the same things muslims are doing. he wouldnt stand for many british values and he'd be an immigrant :)
Reply

mahi
10-28-2009, 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by Thomas
We are talking about the here and now in reality, not what happened 200/300 years ago. As for telling me to go somewhere else when this country is my birthplace. that is ridiculous. As a Christian I believe God made me and in His wisdom placed me here so I suppose you could say that that was 'divine' and if I went to live in another country I would try and adopt the customs of that country or NOT go there... I have not been rude enough to suggest that if you were not born in England, that you might consider returning to your birth place.... IF you ARE an immigrant, please tell me why you came here and why you chose UK over loads of other European countries with similar customs to ours. I am not saying you shouldn't have chosen US, just the rationale behind it. And I dont mind what law, Sharia or other, that you or Gossamer wish to adopt as long as it is not inflicted on the rest of us and particularly on my grand and great-grand daughters.... unless by then they CHOOSE to embrace Islam and whatever advantages optional sharia law offers girls (or even boys) at that time. I am assuming that your mention of the poppies is rehtorical - all I will say is that I dont mind if I never ever see an opium poppy - if it were possible, I would love the Americans to killer spray the lot once a fortnight. The only poppies I am interested in are the ones on sale between now and November 11th. Harmless but very representative of people from many nations who died to give us the freedom to conduct correspondance on sites like this without police (religous, nazi or otherwise) preventing free speech. And the only law I want to embrace here is uk parliamentary law that I helped vote for along with millions of others. That's called democracy...
Thomas, I think it suffices to say you do not have the first clue of Islam, and how it treats women. Like I've said too many times now, the media is a source of ignorance. The amount of respect and protection Islam gives to women is unparalleled.

Anyhow, back to the immigration issue. I started frequenting a Christian forum recently. I asked them this question:
Q: Does Christianity specify anything about rights to certain land? A British Christian recently told me they didn't want Asian people coming to Britain, so I was wondering if in Christianity it is said anywhere that land is specific to people or for everyone or no mention of anything rather?

This is the answer I recieved:
A: Christianity says nothing of the sort. Jesus loved all people, irrregardless of origin. Silly things such as race or borders made by men mean nothing to Jesus. The only thing I can think of is the promised land of Israel to the Jews, but that doesn't really apply to Christianity at all.

I'm sorry that many of the responses you've received have become maybe a bit harsh, though. But Christianity teaches humans are stewards, no? What right does one human have over another in this world? Like above, Jesus loved all the people and took no note of silly things such as race and borders.
Reply

TestData
10-28-2009, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
Please can this thread be moved to "Current Affairs", because it's no longer (and I don't think it really ever was) about comaparative religion, it's actually immigration concerns.
Spot on!

The laughable thing is that in the UK majority of the new immigrants are non muslim, they are white christian eastern europeans from places like Poland.
Reply

Thomas
10-28-2009, 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by mahi
Thomas, I think it suffices to say you do not have the first clue of Islam, and how it treats women. Like I've said too many times now, the media is a source of ignorance. The amount of respect and protection Islam gives to women is unparalleled.

Anyhow, back to the immigration issue. I started frequenting a Christian forum recently. I asked them this question:
Q: Does Christianity specify anything about rights to certain land? A British Christian recently told me they didn't want Asian people coming to Britain, so I was wondering if in Christianity it is said anywhere that land is specific to people or for everyone or no mention of anything rather?

This is the answer I recieved:
A: Christianity says nothing of the sort. Jesus loved all people, irrregardless of origin. Silly things such as race or borders made by men mean nothing to Jesus. The only thing I can think of is the promised land of Israel to the Jews, but that doesn't really apply to Christianity at all.

I'm sorry that many of the responses you've received have become maybe a bit harsh, though. But Christianity teaches humans are stewards, no? What right does one human have over another in this world? Like above, Jesus loved all the people and took no note of silly things such as race and borders.
Hi Mahi
I did start my quest to try and find out a bit more about muslims and try and point out that the mistrust, worry, concern, etc of we English is a COLLECTIVE anxiety that vast numbers of the population has WHETHER IT IS VALID OR NOT. Part of our concern is the 'touchyness' that muslims SEEM to have when mentioning anything about their faith, Allah, Mohammed etc whereas we are quite used to hearing abuse, profanities about God and Jesus every day. This had lead to us worrying about having to make (unwanted?) concessions. Many years ago here it used to be a bit like that when talking to Catholics especially Irish ones but not nowadays. I dont neccessary hold all of the views that lots of English hold about immigrants. If I did I wouldnt be writing on this site now - I would still be holding the same, seemingly prejudicial views, as most others. The fact remains that muslims ARE different and inclined to keep themselves to themselves when in uk. I dont feel I have gained much from the debate other than a bit of defensive abuse, especially from one who is not even living in UK yet felt the need to abuse QE2 (we take all that sort of thing on the chin as many people here are not monarchist and we dont get steamed up about it...)and talk of possible Brit genocide....

I am still mystified so will close the debate here and go on carrying my concerns, if not prejudices. God Bless you
Reply

TestData
10-28-2009, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Hi. I came across this site by chance and would really like to understand people I have never met face to face.

I am English born and Christian which faith, by definition, is acquiescent, submissive (turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies etc) but we now seem up against a faith (Islam) that seems to have few if any of these 'disadvantages' to rein in what seems to be a very militant faith. I mean (although it didnt happen in England) tat silly business of Allah being insulted by a teddy bear being named Mohammed when I thought it was one of the commonst names for a boy - like the English JOHN. The other sad things that really irritates and alienates we Brits is Burka covered women holding placards abusing British soldiers as they march past (Luton?). This one act has brought out Brit street mobs to make things much worse for immigrants. Then, yesterday, I read about a 20 years old women ( presume she is female..) going to register for a college cout dressed from head to foot in a burka and refusing to even show her face for identification which seems so incredibly stupid that I can only assume sh was put up to this by others who want to push, push, push the boundaries acceptable to the average Brit. I expect she will appeal against being refused registration - and the appeal will be allowed "in case it offends people of other faiths". In my town we now have a "Tree of Light" instead of an annual Christmas tree "in case th latter offends those of other faiths" . Have you considered how much abuse Christianity takes, every minute of every day through blasphemies and cynicism? And God, in his infinite wisdom allows that whereas muslims seem to feel the need to take revenge - as if Allah is unable to handle it and deal with it.... Dop Muslims ever actually pray for their enemies, do good to those that hurt you and despise you etc?

To summerise, I wish muslim immigrants would just try and assimilate theselves into English life without constanty seeking concessions. OR, are we Brits making misakes by merely thinking that you want Tree of Light etc concessions when you don't want to patronised?
Thomas,

As it has been noted already you seem to be linking religion and immigration in your thread.

I think the UK tends to pay lip service to its Christian values. I do agree Christianity in the UK tends to get a good kicking from the press and society in general. Unless they are attacking islam. Then the press loves them.

Firstly I would say that it may be that the christianity you represent (anglican christianity) has kind of become very weak and liberal and pretty much surrendered and is really scared of defending its teachings. theres numerous examples of these i.e. gay relationships, Jesus (pbuh), even the virgin birth, heaven/hell.

I'm sure you would agree that American or African evangelical christians do not turn the other cheek? Nope, there happy to take revenge. they dont overlook gay marriages?

I agree with you regarding those extremists waving placards calling people to be killed and making fools of themselves protesting. What goes through their minds I dont know. I think we need to distinguish between those wierdo's and people who genuinely protest peacefully.

I agree with you that those local councils who go OTT with their nonsense about having Christmass lights or carols are fools. Truth is Muslims dont care. Those councilors are probably athiests.

I also think you look at muslims as immigrants. Well acutally, theres lots of muslims who are white and english born. Do they also have to conform and assimiliate? to what? what are british values?
Reply

Eric H
10-28-2009, 02:26 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Thomas, welcome to the forum.

I am a Catholic and live just down the road from you near Southampton. I feel that in order to find the best in other people, we have to open our minds and search, then we will find it.

I have been on this forum since 2005, and found I can look at people here as brothers and sisters. We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship and understanding

Eric
Reply

cat eyes
10-28-2009, 02:30 PM
you shouldn't have a problem with immigrants that come to your country with a visa. its the amount of illegal immigrants that causes problems for citizens and immigrant students getting a job.
Reply

Thomas
10-28-2009, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by TestData
Thomas,

As it has been noted already you seem to be linking religion and immigration in your thread.

I think the UK tends to pay lip service to its Christian values. I do agree Christianity in the UK tends to get a good kicking from the press and society in general. Unless they are attacking islam. Then the press loves them.

Firstly I would say that it may be that the christianity you represent (anglican christianity) has kind of become very weak and liberal and pretty much surrendered and is really scared of defending its teachings. theres numerous examples of these i.e. gay relationships, Jesus (pbuh), even the virgin birth, heaven/hell.

I'm sure you would agree that American or African evangelical christians do not turn the other cheek? Nope, there happy to take revenge. they dont overlook gay marriages?

I agree with you regarding those extremists waving placards calling people to be killed and making fools of themselves protesting. What goes through their minds I dont know. I think we need to distinguish between those wierdo's and people who genuinely protest peacefully.

I agree with you that those local councils who go OTT with their nonsense about having Christmass lights or carols are fools. Truth is Muslims dont care. Those councilors are probably athiests.

I also think you look at muslims as immigrants. Well acutally, theres lots of muslims who are white and english born. Do they also have to conform and assimiliate? to what? what are british values?
Although I said I have closed the debate I will take the risk of one more reply , to explain that christianity is not like Islam these days. When we say people are of christian descent they are not neccessarily practising christians. I doubt if more than 10% of the population are, but they just like the advantages of what the faith has provided over the centuries - like a holiday at the end of the year with some food and drink and good time, decorations and christmas trees in shops, carols and hopefully, a measure of goodwill for a week or two...
And the 90% who are non-practising wont let the 10% who are, close down pubs and things that practising christian dont approve of. So, ONE of our 'problems' with muslims is they all appear to be practising ones and we dont like to ask too many questions. Are there lots of non practising muslims? We are inclined to think not, so see them all as very serious people who keep themselves to themselves and not mix with us. I mean, we wouldnt expect to meet a muslim in a pub, or on a Friday or Saturday night out carousing in the town - and that is probably a good thing! So, my conclusion is that we dont mix, our prejudices and suspicions remain. I just wish I knew a muslim personally that I could have a drink (of tea!) with and ask questions. But I dont and that is the problem..... Because muslims take their faith so seriously, they appear not to like or accept criticism of their way of life in Europe, especially judging by one of my more recent vociferous correspondants who uses personal abuse to justify his/her case... I am sure he/she is an exception. God Bless You
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-28-2009, 03:20 PM
No, not all are practising. Same as with Christians, Hindus, Jews etc..
You wont find a good practising Muslim in pubs...coz that isn't the place to be..you will however find them out with family n friends just like everyone else. We are humans too, not secluded pieces of machinery as u appear to describe us...
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muslimah_81
10-28-2009, 03:30 PM
Thomas
I have lived in England my whole life and have friends of different religions, Christians, Hindu's, Sikh's, Athiests, Bahai's and have yet to come across someone who thinks like you.
I know a lot of christians who discuss religion with muslims and I myself as a muslim have discussed Islam with people of other faiths so I'm not sure who you are representing when you say,
"So, ONE of our 'problems' with muslims is they all appear to be practising ones and we dont like to ask too many questions. Are there lots of non practising muslims? We are inclined to think not, so see them all as very serious people who keep themselves to themselves and not mix with us"
Please dont take this as an insult but I'm not sure what the society is like in your town but maybe you need to venture out to a town that has a mutli cultural society where people of all faiths live happily next to each other.
You may find this hard to believe but places like this do exist in England.
Reply

TestData
10-28-2009, 03:34 PM
"I just wish I knew a muslim personally that I could have a drink (of tea!) with and ask questions. But I dont and that is the problem..... Because muslims take their faith so seriously, they appear not to like or accept criticism of their way of life in Europe, especially judging by one of my more recent vociferous correspondants who uses personal abuse to justify his/her case... I am sure he/she is an exception. God Bless You"

If you dont know any muslims at all personally, should you really be making generalisations about us?

Dont have any muslim work colleagues?

Many of us do take faith seriously. Though I think you will find that many muslims are not practising muslims.

I think if you stick around long enough on this forum you may get to know more about us.
Reply

Insaanah
10-28-2009, 06:58 PM
"We are led to believe that it disadvantages women in particular and we have just spent the past 40/50 years creating equality of the sexes here. We also hear of religous police and all that kind of things. Much of it may be neccessary wory but we dont know enough about muslim way of life. On the surface, it doesn't look very attractive. That may be quite wrong but we dont know and the current thinking is 'stop them coming'.

I am sorry that this thread has taken on the vein that it has. It would be nice if we could accept people's questions and anxieties for what they are without going on the back foot. The issues Thomas has raised are of real concern to many English people. Partly, that is Muslims fault for not talking to people about their religion as io mentioned before, and that breeds fear. People, especially if they don't know any Muslims in person, then take whatever they see in the media, which quite frankly, can be a load of old tosh.

Thoams, you said you did want to learn a bit more about Muslims. I am guessing one of your anxieties is shariah law and what you hear about it. I guess you are thinkong that there'll be so many Muslims here eventually that we will all have to live under that barbaric and monstrous shariah law.

Firstly, can I say, that Islam is the only non-Christain religion which makes it an article of faith to believe in the central figure of Christianity, ie Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). If a person calls himself a Muslim and doesn't
believe in, respect, or love Jesus (peace be upon him) then he is NOT a muslim. NO other religion has this stipulation.

We believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was one of the mightiest messengers of God.
We believe that he was the messiah, translated as christ.
We believe he was born miraculously without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians today do not believe.
We believe that he gave life to the dead with Gods permission.
we believe he healed those born blind and lepers with Gods permission

However we don't belive tht Jesus ever claimed divinity, or that he was God, son of God, or where he said worship me.
We also do not belive that he was crucified.

We belive in all prophets whether we have heard of them or not. That includes the final Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). We are not allowed to pick and choose those we believe in. We also belive in the existence of all the books of God i.e. Bible, Torah, Psalms of David (peace be upon him), and any other books that we have not been told about, revealed before our time. We also believe in the angels, and day of judgement.

Shariah law is very firm but very fair. Can I ask and I hate to ask this question, but what would you want to do say if somebody raped one of the ladyfolk of your family. Most people say, "I'll kill them". Islam gives the same punishment that you yourself would give if that crime was perptrated against you or your family. Yet, when we hear that punishment has been applied to the rapist of someone else's wife/daughter/sister/mother, people say it's barbaric. Hmm...double standards eh? There is also the option for forgiveness too, which our law (I think) doesn't recognise at the moment.

Women.Islam was the first religion to make the woman a legal entity in her own right. The first religion to allow her to earn, own and dispose of her own property as she pleased. The first religion to insist on women receiving a share of inheritance. Muslim women in some Muslim countries do not take on the husbands surname on marriage, as that was a remnant from the slave trade. In Europe women were perceived as being owned by the man on marriage, Like the Palmers and the Williams amongst Afro Carribeans on the plantations. Women in Islam have so many more rights that they have been enjoying and taking for granted hundreds of years before these rights appeared in Europe.

Most people don't understand why a woman would want to cover her face. That lack of understanding makes them think someone must have forced to do it. Some of the women in face veils are the most feminist, opinionated, educated women you could ever hope to meet, and they could describe to you with deep conviction and faith why they personally chose to wear it.

Please do not lose heart if people have been hot headed with you.
I invite you to study more about Islam and ask more questions.

I pray that God guides us all to his straight true path. Amen. Peace
Reply

Insaanah
10-28-2009, 08:13 PM
Sorry for the typos. I did that in an incredible hurry.
Reply

Woodrow
10-28-2009, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
Sorry for the typos. I did that in an incredible hurry.

PM me the typos you want corrected and I will correct them. I see a few things I think are typos, but I do not want to correct them without knowing if they are or are not typos.
Reply

Thomas
10-28-2009, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
"We are led to believe that it disadvantages women in particular and we have just spent the past 40/50 years creating equality of the sexes here. We also hear of religous police and all that kind of things. Much of it may be neccessary wory but we dont know enough about muslim way of life. On the surface, it doesn't look very attractive. That may be quite wrong but we dont know and the current thinking is 'stop them coming'.

I am sorry that this thread has taken on the vein that it has. It would be nice if we could accept people's questions and anxieties for what they are without going on the back foot. The issues Thomas has raised are of real concern to many English people. Partly, that is Muslims fault for not talking to people about their religion as io mentioned before, and that breeds fear. People, especially if they don't know any Muslims in person, then take whatever they see in the media, which quite frankly, can be a load of old tosh.

Thoams, you said you did want to learn a bit more about Muslims. I am guessing one of your anxieties is shariah law and what you hear about it. I guess you are thinkong that there'll be so many Muslims here eventually that we will all have to live under that barbaric and monstrous shariah law.

Firstly, can I say, that Islam is the only non-Christain religion which makes it an article of faith to believe in the central figure of Christianity, ie Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). If a person calls himself a Muslim and doesn't
believe in, respect, or love Jesus (peace be upon him) then he is NOT a muslim. NO other religion has this stipulation.

We believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was one of the mightiest messengers of God.
We believe that he was the messiah, translated as christ.
We believe he was born miraculously without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians today do not believe.
We believe that he gave life to the dead with Gods permission.
we believe he healed those born blind and lepers with Gods permission

However we don't belive tht Jesus ever claimed divinity, or that he was God, son of God, or where he said worship me.
We also do not belive that he was crucified.

We belive in all prophets whether we have heard of them or not. That includes the final Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). We are not allowed to pick and choose those we believe in. We also belive in the existence of all the books of God i.e. Bible, Torah, Psalms of David (peace be upon him), and any other books that we have not been told about, revealed before our time. We also believe in the angels, and day of judgement.

Shariah law is very firm but very fair. Can I ask and I hate to ask this question, but what would you want to do say if somebody raped one of the ladyfolk of your family. Most people say, "I'll kill them". Islam gives the same punishment that you yourself would give if that crime was perptrated against you or your family. Yet, when we hear that punishment has been applied to the rapist of someone else's wife/daughter/sister/mother, people say it's barbaric. Hmm...double standards eh? There is also the option for forgiveness too, which our law (I think) doesn't recognise at the moment.

Women.Islam was the first religion to make the woman a legal entity in her own right. The first religion to allow her to earn, own and dispose of her own property as she pleased. The first religion to insist on women receiving a share of inheritance. Muslim women in some Muslim countries do not take on the husbands surname on marriage, as that was a remnant from the slave trade. In Europe women were perceived as being owned by the man on marriage, Like the Palmers and the Williams amongst Afro Carribeans on the plantations. Women in Islam have so many more rights that they have been enjoying and taking for granted hundreds of years before these rights appeared in Europe.

Most people don't understand why a woman would want to cover her face. That lack of understanding makes them think someone must have forced to do it. Some of the women in face veils are the most feminist, opinionated, educated women you could ever hope to meet, and they could describe to you with deep conviction and faith why they personally chose to wear it.

Please do not lose heart if people have been hot headed with you.
I invite you to study more about Islam and ask more questions.

I pray that God guides us all to his straight true path. Amen. Peace
Hi Insaan
Many thanks for your very nice and informative post.
All I ever wanted was to express milions of English people's concerns and seek reassurance but the majority of replies have been defensive as if I am on the attack. Yes, I am entitled to ask questions and if Muslins want to come here in large numbers I think it reasonable to know more. The worst was from a lady who was personally abusive and completely missed the point as I was not questioning her authority to live under sharia law in her own country. As far as I am aware I have, all along, emphasised that I am only concerned with sharia law being applied in uk. How Muslims operate in other parts of the world is entirely up to them. If so many English people are worried enough to make it one of the main planks of the forthcoming election there must be a reason for it. For this reason, of course I am generalising. I may be misinformed but I am not an isolated freak. I wish I had had a better reception but I am not going to let this experience make my current concerns any worse. God Bless you too Insaan

P.S. Is the use of the word MOSLEM a rude expression in respect of Muslims?
What is the most polite way of address?
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-28-2009, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Suicide is forbidden in Islam. The killing of innocents and non-combatants is forbidden, the killing of anyone by the use of fire is forbidden. I believe that suicide bombers are acting contrary to the teachings of Islam.

Woodrow, you (and most, but not all, of the rest of the Islamic community here) have been consistent in your affirmation of the tolerance of Islam for other people's beliefs and its abhorence of these forms of violence. For that I thank you. But, maybe you can help me with something else I see with regard to Islam globally.

Given that suicide bombers are, in your words, acting contrary to Islam, why is it that there is more outrage expressed over a Danish newspaper cartoon or the naming of a Teddy bear than there is over those who commit these horrible non-Islamic acts in the name of Islam? Don't they slander Islam even more than these other things do? Why does one result in riots, arrests, fatwahs, and violence and the other is hardly a blip on the radar screen.

Now, before you say that I should check out some of the places where Muslims do condem such acts, I acknowledge that the Muslim community is not silent on the issue. But even as one who has a positive empathy for the Islamic faith, the difference in degree and manner of the Ummah's response to the two is glaringly alarming.
Reply

Thomas
10-28-2009, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
Sorry for the typos. I did that in an incredible hurry.
Insaan. Just one more point I wish to make.

Although we talk of 'christian' England, nobody is born a Christian, even if his/her parents are. It is something one has to embrace personally at what is known as the 'age of discretion' - about 13 when able to make conscious decisions independantly of parental control. Of course, many or most dont which is why we have so many unbelievers but the basic Judeo/Christian ethos generally prevails throughout the country because everybody is used to it and it seems to work ok. I believe a Jew becomes one at birth if his mother is Jewish so no conscious conversion required but I am not an authority on this.

Please tell me about Islam. Is one born a muslim or is there a conversion requirement? I read of English 'converts' but is that because that person's parents are not moslems? This is the sort of thing I need to know in my quest. Thomas
Reply

Woodrow
10-28-2009, 10:22 PM
P.S. Is the use of the word MOSLEM a rude expression in respect of Muslims?
What is the most polite way of address?
That comes close to being personal preference. A lot will depend on where you live and how you pronounce it in the local dialect. Here in the USA Muslim seems to be preferrd in the Southern States as the pronuciation is closer to the Arabic, but here in the Dakotas Moslem seems to be closer to the Arabic. Muslim is acceptable nearly world wide and may be the best choice to use if you do not know which is preffered. Mozlem spelled with a z is pretty well seen as offensive in almost all countries.
Reply

Insaanah
10-28-2009, 11:11 PM
Thanks Uncle Woodrow for the offer of correcting the typos.:)
However I just re-read it and realised that there were even more than I thought :embarrass
They are all the ones that you can see blazingly staring out lol, so I'm happy for you to correct them should you wish to do so.

Hi Thomas,

I'm glad you came back and read the thread.

Muslim appears to be the worldwide spelling and is the one most frequently used by Muslims themselves, so that's the best spelling to use. It's also closer to the correct pronounciation.

We believe that every child is born sinless. The only sins he earns are the ones he/she actually does. No one is burdened with sins that they haven't committed at birth.

We also believe that every child is born a Muslim, in what is called the natural state of "fitrah". I'm no scholar but a rough way of explaining it is that if that child had no outside influences, they would come to believe that there is One creator who created him etc.

Then it is external, parental and environmental factors that turn the child into the religion he/she eventually becomes. There is no hereditary aspect to Islam. Your faith is based on your beliefs alone, not that of your parents. i.e. both your parents could be Muslim, but if you decided to follow a different path, then you are not a Muslim. Similarly, both your parents could be non-Muslim, but you may be a Muslim.

You are either brought up as a Muslim, or you revert. Note I haven't used the word convert, because as I said before, we believe that each child is born a Muslim. When you revert, any and all previous sins are washed away and you start clean with a new slate. To revert, you must first know, understand and accept the basic teachings of Islam, and then the actual reversion is by saying with your tongues, and believing deply in your heart, what is known as the Shahaada, the declaration of faith. The translation of the shortest form is, "I bear witness that there is no God but Allah, and that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is His messenger. That's the bare minimum.

Also is sometimes added, And I bear witness that Jesus (peace be upon him) is the servant of God and His messenger , that heaven and hell are true, and that God will resurrect those in their graves.

Hope this helps. Please feel free to ask any other questions you may have.

Peace.
Reply

Raphael
10-29-2009, 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
You are either brought up as a Muslim, or you revert. Note I haven't used the word convert, because as I said before, we believe that each child is born a Muslim.

I disagree with this statement.

A child is not born Muslim, or Christian, or or anything for that matter. Just as a child is not born an accountant, a stockbroker, or lawyer.

The sweetness of emaan comes from a wilful submission to ones Lord. A child that dies young is granted jannah because they have not been tested, regardless of their religion, or religious practices.

In fact this is one of the major differences between Christianity and Islam. The fundamental tenet of Christianity is that human beings are incapable of reconciling with God, and it is the belief that somebody else took the sins that grants them nearness to God. In Islam however, it is entirely ones own actions that determine their fate.

The word Muslim carries a beautiful meaning. An individual who submits to the Will of their Lord is rewarded in such a splendid fashion by Allah ta ala, because they chose to. This is the true meaning of the much misquoted verse in surah al Baqarah "there is no compulsion in religion".
This is clear if one reads the full verse...


Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Al-Baqarah (2:256)
Quran



*whoever rejects evil* - a concious act of free will
*and believes in Allah* - a concious act of free will

A child does not have the mental capacity to make this decision. I disagree with teaching a child memorisation of the Quran, and neglecting the most important part - its message! However this is common in many cultures.

A true revert, is one that had faith, lost it, and came back. That is to say, they wilfully believed in Allah, then went into disbelief, then came back to belief.

A child does not make a concious decision to believe, which is part of the shahadah, and thus a convert has not fallen into disbelief before coming into Islam.

This is not a criticism of your post, and you are definitely not the first person to say that. I know it sounds nice that every child is born a Muslim, but I think the truth is so much sweeter.



For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.


Al-Ahzab (33:35)
Quran
Reply

Eliphaz
10-29-2009, 12:40 AM
Dear Thomas

I too am from the South Coast of U.K. My father is an 'indigenous' Englishman by which I assume you mean the 'white' descendants of the Celtic, Roman, Anglo-Saxons, Germanaic, Nordish people and so forth who migrated there from Europe across the centuries.

My mother is one of the immigrants who came from Pakistan in the 70s.

I find that your perception of Islam is highly blinkered. Muslims are not a uniform homogeneous mass.

I also feel you have been hoodwinked by the rhetoric of parties like UKIP and BNP, who masquerade under the guise of defending British/Christian values when you know as well as I do that any 'Christian' values England holds as a country today is merely paying lip service.

Muslims couldn't care less about a tree being called a 'Christmas Tree'. I was involved in many school nativity plays, yes, as a Muslim child! I played one of the three wise men, and even a sheep (ironic maybe)! As to why the tree was renamed 'Tree of Light', I think you are asking the wrong people. I think you have that wonderful post-enlightenment 'secularism' movement to thank for that one, which has been politically correcting and championing 'freedom from religion' for the last few decades.

Regarding this mass influx of crazy burka-wearing placard-waving Muslims who are swimming across the channel just to get a chance to live in Mighty Blighty, you do realise that this is, 1. A scaremongering vote-grabbing bogeyman stereotype the likes of which was used to caricature communists during the Cold War, and, 2. A problem which reflects more on the ridiculous open door policy the government adopted as a means to boost the economy, that it does on the immigrants themselves? If you open the door, how can you blame the man who walks in?

Now look Thomas, the majority of true practising Muslims (I won't call them "moderate", because that is like saying "watered down" and is therefore oxymoronic), who follow the Qur'an as it is meant to be followed, do not, I repeat NOT want to bomb you. For a Muslim to take one innocent life is like killing all of humanity. Also, they do not want shariah law in the U.K. They don't even want you to rename your Christmas Tree! :D They just want what you want: to practise their beliefs, to coexist alongside their fellow human being and People of the Book (Christians and Jews - people held in high regard in the Qu'ran) and to have a good future for themselves and their family. That's IT. No fine print, no BS'ing.

I would also like to talk to you Grace Seeker.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Given that suicide bombers are, in your words, acting contrary to Islam, why is it that there is more outrage expressed over a Danish newspaper cartoon or the naming of a Teddy bear than there is over those who commit these horrible non-Islamic acts in the name of Islam? Don't they slander Islam even more than these other things do? Why does one result in riots, arrests, fatwahs, and violence and the other is hardly a blip on the radar screen.
Firstly, what 'radar screen' are you talking about? The wonderfully free and fair agenda-less media coverage? Muslims do not need to apologise for the acts of someone who flagrantly contradicts their core beliefs and values. Islam is not the only religion of whose some alleged 'followers' have innocent blood on their hands. Yes, people got bent out of shape over the issue of the Danish cartoon - I wrote an entire thread dedicated to condemning these placards - but why are you judging Islam based on a select group of Muslims? Why don't you do your research into Islam with a rational mind, find out whether the 1 percent of verses that deal with fighting are referring specific contexts of self-defence against those who attack Muslims, or if they are referring to clandestine acts of mass violence against entire populations. I think you will find it is the former. Thomas: I would kindly advise you do the same.

Peace, may we come to a common understanding.
Reply

GuestFellow
10-29-2009, 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Grace Seeker
Given that suicide bombers are, in your words, acting contrary to Islam, why is it that there is more outrage expressed over a Danish newspaper cartoon or the naming of a Teddy bear than there is over those who commit these horrible non-Islamic acts in the name of Islam? Don't they slander Islam even more than these other things do? Why does one result in riots, arrests, fatwahs, and violence and the other is hardly a blip on the radar screen.
Why don't Western countries speak against the crimes that Israel committed against the Palestinians for the past sixty years!

Muslims do speak against terrorist attacks. There are many books and videos that show Muslims speaking against the terrorist attacks. The media does not even bother with Muslims who speak against these attacks...
Reply

Woodrow
10-29-2009, 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Woodrow, you (and most, but not all, of the rest of the Islamic community here) have been consistent in your affirmation of the tolerance of Islam for other people's beliefs and its abhorence of these forms of violence. For that I thank you. But, maybe you can help me with something else I see with regard to Islam globally.

Given that suicide bombers are, in your words, acting contrary to Islam, why is it that there is more outrage expressed over a Danish newspaper cartoon or the naming of a Teddy bear than there is over those who commit these horrible non-Islamic acts in the name of Islam? Don't they slander Islam even more than these other things do? Why does one result in riots, arrests, fatwahs, and violence and the other is hardly a blip on the radar screen.

Now, before you say that I should check out some of the places where Muslims do condem such acts, I acknowledge that the Muslim community is not silent on the issue. But even as one who has a positive empathy for the Islamic faith, the difference in degree and manner of the Ummah's response to the two is glaringly alarming.
Peace Gene,

I think we can ascribe that to human nature in general. It is fairly easy to consider the act of a suicide bomber as being the act of a madman. It is difficult to think a sane person would do such a horrendous act that is only going to bring them a possible eternity in hell-fire. Plus, the madman is dead, we can not address him and let him know we detest his action. Add to that we know that at least for that one person he is not going to repeat the act. Who are we going to protest against? We really have no visible entity to protest against. People tend not to protest unless they have something visible to protest against. We can not protest those who are training and supplying suicide bombers we do not know who that would be and while we may suspect some individuals and organizations we have no means of contacting them. people do not get into heated protest unless the entity being protested against is to some level accessible.

Now using the cartoons as an example. The cartoonist is known, the entities that published the cartoons are known, the country whose laws permitted them is known. There is a visible and accessible entity to protest against. Add to that there is visible reaction to the protests. A protester wants/needs a reaction if a protest is going to have momentum, The greater the perceived reaction is, the larger and longer lasting the protest will become.

Then to add to that most of us see a suicide bomber as basically sinning against humankind while a person insulting Allah(swt) and/or the Prophets(PBUT) is sinning against God(swt). Although if your loved ones are killed by a suicide bomber you might view that differently. Which is what may be what is now happening in Pakistan. I view the sending of 30,000 Pakistani Army troops to destroy the Taliban as being the largest organized protest against suicide bombers, to date.

Just my views, If i am wrong correct me Astagfirullah
Reply

Thomas
10-29-2009, 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by Raphael
I disagree with this statement.

A child is not born Muslim, or Christian, or or anything for that matter. Just as a child is not born an accountant, a stockbroker, or lawyer.

The sweetness of emaan comes from a wilful submission to ones Lord. A child that dies young is granted jannah because they have not been tested, regardless of their religion, or religious practices.

In fact this is one of the major differences between Christianity and Islam. The fundamental tenet of Christianity is that human beings are incapable of reconciling with God, and it is the belief that somebody else took the sins that grants them nearness to God. In Islam however, it is entirely ones own actions that determine their fate.

The word Muslim carries a beautiful meaning. An individual who submits to the Will of their Lord is rewarded in such a splendid fashion by Allah ta ala, because they chose to. This is the true meaning of the much misquoted verse in surah al Baqarah "there is no compulsion in religion".
This is clear if one reads the full verse...


Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Al-Baqarah (2:256)
Quran



*whoever rejects evil* - a concious act of free will
*and believes in Allah* - a concious act of free will

A child does not have the mental capacity to make this decision. I disagree with teaching a child memorisation of the Quran, and neglecting the most important part - its message! However this is common in many cultures.

A true revert, is one that had faith, lost it, and came back. That is to say, they wilfully believed in Allah, then went into disbelief, then came back to belief.

A child does not make a concious decision to believe, which is part of the shahadah, and thus a convert has not fallen into disbelief before coming into Islam.

This is not a criticism of your post, and you are definitely not the first person to say that. I know it sounds nice that every child is born a Muslim, but I think the truth is so much sweeter.



For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.


Al-Ahzab (33:35)
Quran
Hi Raphael and Insaan
I think I am getting there.
Firstly, for christianity.
From birth to the age of discretion (usually reckoned to be about 13 but varies according to the intellect of the person) it is believed that a person is acceptable to God unconditionally. From then on, once that person has 'heard the claims of the christian gospel' i.e. has understood it, he is expected to be accountable for his acceptance or rejection of it. It can be later, even very much later in life, even on ones deathbed, so never too late to be 'saved' but one does run the risk of being eternally 'lost' should one die after hearing and understanding the claims and not being able to put things right by asking for salvation. It is not for others to judge how God will deal with people in such circumstances. On the other hand, a person understanding the claims and outrightly rejecting same would, naturally, not be 'saved', perhaps because they dont want to be saved. There are many sceptics and agnostics who dont know what to believe so could become christians at any time before death. Although there are some who willfully reject the idea of christian salvation, most people sort of go along with it, like thinking of doing something about it 'in due course'. This may all sound a bit wooly to you but is probably why English people are fond of christmas, easter etc and dont want it disturbed by what they see as a possible muslim immigration threat. You would hear them describe it as "our (or the English) way of life". A kind of comfort blanket they can turn to in a crisis, bereavement etc which is why it always has to be there for them. In the hope that God will eventually say "ok then, you can come in" .

I am not saying all this simply to proselytise but merely to try and explain one of the major fears of any change or immigrant concessions seen as the thin edge of the wedge. I suppose the ideal situation is that christians continue to go off to church as often or as infrequently as they wish and muslims go off to the mosque likewise and sometimes meet each other socially. As you have already said, the possible conflict arises because nuisance local councillors and others who are unbelievers come up with unwanted concessions which actually furthers their own agenda by gradually marginalising christianity. And because of its inbuilt 'impediments' such as 'turn the other cheek, do good to those who insult you' etc the christian church has backed off more and more and only every now and again do we hear a bishop or other cleric raise a voice in protest. The irony of all this is that whilst the 'standard' (Church of England) version of christianity appears to be receeding, the non-church going population worry when they see mosques being built.... A fear of the comfort blanket being gradually taken away.....

In 1936, American President Roosevelt told his people that "the only fear we have is fear itself" and this may well be our own problem. Immigrants themselves are not the major problem (although it has become a political concern of the population) but the fears of the changes they will bring about by sheer numbers and required concessions. And when we read about even one-off events like returning soldiers being abused on their march-pasts, burka covered student demanding admission without uncovering her face, more and more streets/areas being taken over in large cities (no problem where I live on south coast) with the PERCEIVED idea that immigrants are getting every government cash and other benefit under the sun, the English are getting more and more resentful. When I previously emphasised the word "PERCEIVED" on earlier posts it seemed to be lost on those reading my comments. When I used the word "WE" to describe many millions of English born residents, readers seemed to think I was an isolated crank peddling my OWN racial ideas. So there IS a definite lack of communication and understanding of the Engliash vernacular... I have no desire to create disharmony but in view of the political forthcoming problems about immigration I assumed it better to speak plainly about my own country, rather than just platitudes. I have NO interest in changing or disturbing current arrangements or insulting Asian people's belief, customs and way of life in the rest of the world even though I am aware that some other European countries such as France, Holland and Denmark are showing signs of similar concern. I am only interested in my own home turf at the moment.

I hope this sounds reassuring and wont result in muslims telling me I am race discriminating....
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-29-2009, 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by Omar_21:30

I would also like to talk to you Grace Seeker.



Firstly, what 'radar screen' are you talking about? The wonderfully free and fair agenda-less media coverage? Muslims do not need to apologise for the acts of someone who flagrantly contradicts their core beliefs and values. Islam is not the only religion of whose some alleged 'followers' have innocent blood on their hands. Yes, people got bent out of shape over the issue of the Danish cartoon - I wrote an entire thread dedicated to condemning these placards - but why are you judging Islam based on a select group of Muslims? Why don't you do your research into Islam with a rational mind, find out whether the 1 percent of verses that deal with fighting are referring specific contexts of self-defence against those who attack Muslims, or if they are referring to clandestine acts of mass violence against entire populations. I think you will find it is the former. Thomas: I would kindly advise you do the same.

Peace, may we come to a common understanding.
First: The only "radar screen" available to me is that of the mass media outlets found in the USA, so that is the one I am referring to. That does includes places like your blog, but it didn't show up in the search I did. Rather, the protests did. Hence my use of the term "blip", because while there are some reports of the type of response which you might give -- note I recognized that they are out there -- they are also in fact largely overshadowed by the noise from other quarters. Now, some of this is due to a media that operates under the guise that news is that which assualts the sinces. So, quite responses to violence are often not reported while that which bleeds leads. I get this. I also get that all that it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to remain silent in the face of it. When an outsider such as myself speaks to this, it almost always meets with the response you have given, that Islam does not condone such violence. That's great! I understand. I already knew that. What I don't get is why I mainly hear that statement made in response to my and other non-Muslims' questions about it? Why are the prophetic voices speaking against violence done in the name of Islam so few and scattered as to appear almost silent on the matter?

Second, And I am not asking for Muslims to apologize for someone who flagrantly contradicts their core beliefs and values. You yourself have nothing to apologize for. I don't for a second think that Islam at its core is anything other than a religion of peace. What I do think is that some people who have other agendas have attempted to hijack it and have abused it. I suggest that in doing so they have insulted the Prophet much more than a cartoon, much more than a teddy bear, much more than any non-Muslim can do. For they are defaming the religion of Islam from within, and despoiling the faith's good name and message so that others get a perverted and distorted view of what it means to be a follower of Islam and a slave of Allah. I don't get how it is then that there would not be even more consternation of these actions? If a cartoon can incite people to protest (usually peacably) in the streets -- I even understand why it might, but why can't an act of terroism get those same people to march for peace? If a teddy bear can get people thrown in jail, why can't a suicide bomber get those who recruit people for those purposes to be declared outlaws? Why don't these violent non-Islamic acts committed in the name of Islam, inflame the same protests that other non-violent acts do that are seen as an insult to Islam? For surely violence commited in the name of Islam which Islam is supposedly a religion of peace is more insulting than any of these other acts could ever be.

Third, I am not judging Islam based on a select group of Muslims. I am asking where is the response of the majority? If the dominant position of the Qur'an, if the overwhelming theme of Islam, if the majority view of Muslims all over the world is that violence is NOT the way of Islam -- and I accept all that as a given -- then where is the voiced outrage, the prophet condemnation, the fatwas against terrorism, protesting in the streets by that majority. How and why can the majority let this non-Islamic behaving 1% be allowed to make itself the face of Islam to the non-Muslim world?

Fourth, in saying "Why don't you do your research into Islam with a rational mind..." it comes across as if you are accusing me of not doing research into Islam with a rational mind. And if this is indeed what you are saying, then I take that as an insult. Having now been insulted, what would be an appropriate response on my part? I am going to give you a chance to amend your words. I would ask you to note that while I am not a Muslim, I have been on this forum for nearly 3 years. I came here originally specifically because I had friends who were asking the same questions then that I have put forth today. They wanted to know where the voice of Islam was in condeming the violence being perpetrated in the name of Islam. I knew that the media was not covering it well because I personally have a number of relationships with Muslims and knew it the violence that I was seeing on TV did not reflect that Islamic community that I knew personally. I had with my own ears heard the Iman at the local mosque speak against it. But I had not found anything in the media directed to a wider audience. I knew it had to be out there, but under-reported. And so I did come here on that rational search that you speak of. I have remained a part of this forum community since that time enjoying a whole host of conversations on a variety of issues. And those who have taken the time to know me from more than just one post are, I believe, fully aware that I harber no ill will against Islam as a faith and certainly none against Muslims themselves. But I have asked and will continue to ask questions because I do believe that one's life, one's values, and the praxis of one's faith needs to examined. I do this with myself, and because there are Muslims who are personally dear to me, I dare also to do this with Islam as I cannot stand to see it to be allowed to be so easily besmirched as it is by those who are allowed to hijack it into something it is not without ever being challenged by those who are true followers of Islam.

You want rational research. How about some logic, in particular a couple of syllogism:

If their faith is defamed, then Muslims will protest.
Muhammad (pbuh) is pictured in a cartoon.
Muslims protest.
Therefore, Muslims view the cartoon as defaming their faith.


If their faith is defamed, then Muslims will protest.
A person commits an act of violence in the name of Islam.
Muslims do NOT protest.
Therefore, what shall one conclude?


To me it says that Muslims do NOT view acts of violence done in the Islam to be defaming of their faith, and I just have a hard time accepting that as true. Yet, if I base my understanding solely upon observation of behavior and reason and not my own emotional response of love for the Muslims I know personally, that is the most rational conclusion I am able to reach. And so I post here, because rather than accept that as a true indictment of Islam, I would prefer to challenge Muslims to call these individuals who are in fact defaming and slandering the good name of Islam what they are hooligans, terrorists, and acting contrary to the principles of Islam. Yes, I know you and others have done so on your blogs. But I still want to know why, if people will march in the streets in the protest of one, why won't they march in the streets in the protest of the other? Why the two different responses to the same crime against Islam?

----------------

And, Woodrow, thank-you for your post above which was made while I was composing this response to Omar. I know that one cannot protest against the dead suicide bomber. And I sort of get your point that one cannot even protest against the unknown recruiter. But I find that the recruiter is not so unknown, at least TV reporters appear to have no trouble finding people to interview who are involved these activities. But beyond that, why not protest the idea, just as once upon a time people protested not just the individual acts of racism by the whole culture of racism that gripped our own country. It wasn't solved overnight, but when people started to make it part of the fabric of our society that racism would no longer be said to be wrong but a blind eye turned to those who perpetuated it, then and only then progress finally began to be made. And while there may be important conversations taking place in a few places, from what I can tell as an outsider sometimes invited it, the overall response of the Ummah to violence done in the name of Islam, remains as condoning as that of 1950s white America to violence done in the name of racial superiority. I hope the Ummah doesn't allow that infection to fester within it as long as America did in confronting its shameful practices.
Reply

Eliphaz
10-29-2009, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Fourth, in saying "Why don't you do your research into Islam with a rational mind..." it comes across as if you are accusing me of not doing research into Islam with a rational mind. And if this is indeed what you are saying, then I take that as an insult. Having now been insulted, what would be an appropriate response on my part? I am going to give you a chance to amend your words.
I apologise. Those words were ill-chosen. "Rational mind" should have read "rational approach" and were not meant to insult you in any way. I think I misread your post:

Given that suicide bombers are, in your words, acting contrary to Islam
to suggest that this (suicide bombers) was an issue that you were yourself not clear on, in terms of the Islamic standpoint. Please forgive me for my own ignorance.

As I am retiring for the night I will just say that I feel Woodrow's post is better than any answer I can give in addressing the remainder of your questions.
Reply

Italianguy
10-29-2009, 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Hi. I came across this site by chance and would really like to understand people I have never met face to face.

I am English born and Christian which faith, by definition, is acquiescent, submissive (turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies etc) but we now seem up against a faith (Islam) that seems to have few if any of these 'disadvantages' to rein in what seems to be a very militant faith. I mean (although it didnt happen in England) tat silly business of Allah being insulted by a teddy bear being named Mohammed when I thought it was one of the commonst names for a boy - like the English JOHN. The other sad things that really irritates and alienates we Brits is Burka covered women holding placards abusing British soldiers as they march past (Luton?). This one act has brought out Brit street mobs to make things much worse for immigrants. Then, yesterday, I read about a 20 years old women ( presume she is female..) going to register for a college cout dressed from head to foot in a burka and refusing to even show her face for identification which seems so incredibly stupid that I can only assume sh was put up to this by others who want to push, push, push the boundaries acceptable to the average Brit. I expect she will appeal against being refused registration - and the appeal will be allowed "in case it offends people of other faiths". In my town we now have a "Tree of Light" instead of an annual Christmas tree "in case th latter offends those of other faiths" . Have you considered how much abuse Christianity takes, every minute of every day through blasphemies and cynicism? And God, in his infinite wisdom allows that whereas muslims seem to feel the need to take revenge - as if Allah is unable to handle it and deal with it.... Dop Muslims ever actually pray for their enemies, do good to those that hurt you and despise you etc?

To summerise, I wish muslim immigrants would just try and assimilate theselves into English life without constanty seeking concessions. OR, are we Brits making misakes by merely thinking that you want Tree of Light etc concessions when you don't want to patronised?
My fellow christian, calm down, why don't you find a local msoque or just talk to someone here. As a Christian i can attest that we both have extremests in our faiths. Please don't represent Christians in a bad way. Everyone here is extremley accepting and helpfull! God bless.
Reply

Thomas
10-29-2009, 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by Omar_21:30
Dear Thomas

I too am from the South Coast of U.K. My father is an 'indigenous' Englishman by which I assume you mean the 'white' descendants of the Celtic, Roman, Anglo-Saxons, Germanaic, Nordish people and so forth who migrated there from Europe across the centuries.

My mother is one of the immigrants who came from Pakistan in the 70s.

I find that your perception of Islam is highly blinkered. Muslims are not a uniform homogeneous mass.

I also feel you have been hoodwinked by the rhetoric of parties like UKIP and BNP, who masquerade under the guise of defending British/Christian values when you know as well as I do that any 'Christian' values England holds as a country today is merely paying lip service.

Muslims couldn't care less about a tree being called a 'Christmas Tree'. I was involved in many school nativity plays, yes, as a Muslim child! I played one of the three wise men, and even a sheep (ironic maybe)! As to why the tree was renamed 'Tree of Light', I think you are asking the wrong people. I think you have that wonderful post-enlightenment 'secularism' movement to thank for that one, which has been politically correcting and championing 'freedom from religion' for the last few decades.

Regarding this mass influx of crazy burka-wearing placard-waving Muslims who are swimming across the channel just to get a chance to live in Mighty Blighty, you do realise that this is, 1. A scaremongering vote-grabbing bogeyman stereotype the likes of which was used to caricature communists during the Cold War, and, 2. A problem which reflects more on the ridiculous open door policy the government adopted as a means to boost the economy, that it does on the immigrants themselves? If you open the door, how can you blame the man who walks in?

Now look Thomas, the majority of true practising Muslims (I won't call them "moderate", because that is like saying "watered down" and is therefore oxymoronic), who follow the Qur'an as it is meant to be followed, do not, I repeat NOT want to bomb you. For a Muslim to take one innocent life is like killing all of humanity. Also, they do not want shariah law in the U.K. They don't even want you to rename your Christmas Tree! :D They just want what you want: to practise their beliefs, to coexist alongside their fellow human being and People of the Book (Christians and Jews - people held in high regard in the Qu'ran) and to have a good future for themselves and their family. That's IT. No fine print, no BS'ing.

I would also like to talk to you Grace Seeker.



Firstly, what 'radar screen' are you talking about? The wonderfully free and fair agenda-less media coverage? Muslims do not need to apologise for the acts of someone who flagrantly contradicts their core beliefs and values. Islam is not the only religion of whose some alleged 'followers' have innocent blood on their hands. Yes, people got bent out of shape over the issue of the Danish cartoon - I wrote an entire thread dedicated to condemning these placards - but why are you judging Islam based on a select group of Muslims? Why don't you do your research into Islam with a rational mind, find out whether the 1 percent of verses that deal with fighting are referring specific contexts of self-defence against those who attack Muslims, or if they are referring to clandestine acts of mass violence against entire populations. I think you will find it is the former. Thomas: I would kindly advise you do the same.

Peace, may we come to a common understanding.
Hi Omar and thanks for your interesting post.
Yes, I do understand that we English, collectively, have a probably warped idea of the PERCEIVED problems of ever more immigration. I didnt know I had used the word 'indigenous' as I am not keen on it as description of those in uk.
Interesting to read that your father was English born and your mother was an immigrant. Was your father a muslim from birth?

I am old enough to remember many Asian people coming here years ago. Many came from Africa after being kicked out of Uganda by that mad man. I believe they had to leave any wealth behind and start here from scratch and re-opened corner shops that had closed after the arrival of supermarkets, and made the shops work by apparantly using the whole family whereas English born sons and daughters had stopped following in fathers footsteps and went off and did their own thing. I wonder how many new businesses nowadays have names like "Brown and Son" . All the Asian small shopkeepers seemed to be a Mr Patel.

I expect you will understand why the millions of English born people are currently worried about the seemingly uncontrolled immigration arrangements. Many 'failed' asylum seekers who are not deported and vanish. All those people who periodically gather at Calais and refuse to ask for asylum in any of the many 'safe' countries they pass through. Why do they do these desperate things that we see on TV. I have tried to explain why we are worried but I would say that the majority of responders seem to misunderstand and defensively accuse me of racism when all I have tried to do is tell the people on the site what and why the English have these concerns and fears. After all, if any of them ever decide to come here they will have to put up with more than a few questions being asked of them. Their defense of Islam seems strange compared with the 24/7 abuse that christianity has to put up with. It looks like moderator Woodrow finally summed it up with his comments.

Wherabouts on the south coast are you? I am in Eastbourne.

Regards Thomas
Reply

Pygoscelis
10-29-2009, 02:38 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Why don't Western countries speak against the crimes that Israel committed against the Palestinians for the past sixty years!
Not an apt comparison, as the Israelis are not doing what they do in the name of other western countries, western philosophy, or western religion. The point that was very nicely being made by Grace Seeker is that these terrorists do what they do in the name of Ilsam - which is surely a slap in the face to the religion if its a religion of peace. And surely it does more damage to muslims than any western person could - it poisons people against Islam (makes us think rightly or wrongly that Islam is a religion of violence and terror and subdues any empathy we may otherwise have for our muslim brothers and sisters).

There is nothing more effective in rendering people cold and nasty towards somebody than to demonize them and make them look evil, and terrorism demonizes Islam.

Woodrow gave the best reply to this oft made and rarely answered criticism of muslims that I have ever heard or read. Kudos to you Woodrow. You had me nodding and smiling all through your post and explained away something I've long be critical of muslims for. Except at the end when you differentiated crime towards man from crime towards God and I got the idea that maybe the latter is a greater concern to a muslim (and if so I find that in itself rather alarming).
Reply

Woodrow
10-29-2009, 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And, Woodrow, thank-you for your post above which was made while I was composing this response to Omar. I know that one cannot protest against the dead suicide bomber. And I sort of get your point that one cannot even protest against the unknown recruiter. But I find that the recruiter is not so unknown, at least TV reporters appear to have no trouble finding people to interview who are involved these activities. But beyond that, why not protest the idea, just as once upon a time people protested not just the individual acts of racism by the whole culture of racism that gripped our own country. It wasn't solved overnight, but when people started to make it part of the fabric of our society that racism would no longer be said to be wrong but a blind eye turned to those who perpetuated it, then and only then progress finally began to be made. And while there may be important conversations taking place in a few places, from what I can tell as an outsider sometimes invited it, the overall response of the Ummah to violence done in the name of Islam, remains as condoning as that of 1950s white America to violence done in the name of racial superiority. I hope the Ummah doesn't allow that infection to fester within it as long as America did in confronting its shameful practices.
Peace Gene,

Very good points and perhaps some are possible to do.Some steps that can be taken is more educational programs reaching young people world wide.

A current stumbling block I see is the destitute living condition many of the suicide bombers have come from. The suicide bomber is often seen as wrong but understandingly wrong as desperate people living in desperate conditions will do irrational acts.

So possibly the keys to eliminating suicide bombers is to improve the living conditions where they come from and education. Protests might attract more attention, but I do not see they would bring lasting change.

I know this doesn't answer your question, but it gave me thought as to what can be done.

I will give some deeper thought over what you said in your post and try to address it after a good nights sleep. I should have plenty of PC time tomorrow as we are expecting a minimum of a foot of snow tonight so looks like I'll be spending the day indoors tomorrow.
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-29-2009, 03:38 AM
Woodrow, I am sure you are quite right that the majority of these acts are acts of desperation. Does desperation make it understandable? Not to me. And even if it does to others, how does it ever make it condonable? I can understand (even if I don't agree with) people acting this way to achieve political ends -- the major reason that I believe they are conducted -- after all political motives are often secular and make no illusion to being done in any diety's name. But to have them couched as being a religious act is not condonable, but condemnable. And when done by supposed followers Islam in the name of Allah..., well I remain surprised that the Ummah doesn't rise with one voice, as it does when Islam is otherwise defamed and slandered, and express its justified condemnation of the perversion of the true way of Islam.


(As a side note: You who are in the USA will remember how Christians did in fact go public with their protests against the radical pro-lifers who committed murder and bombings at abortion clinics.)
Reply

Eliphaz
10-29-2009, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Interesting to read that your father was English born and your mother was an immigrant. Was your father a muslim from birth?
My father was born into a non-practising Christian family and converted to Islam several years before meeting my mother.

Originally Posted by Thomas
I expect you will understand why the millions of English born people are currently worried about the seemingly uncontrolled immigration arrangements. Many 'failed' asylum seekers who are not deported and vanish.
Yes. I think we are all worried about out of control population growth because of the size of the U.K., estimated as only being suitable for up to a population of 70m people. Which makes one wonder how the birth rate will be controlled in a few years... :hmm:

We should address the cause (lousy policy) instead of being distracted by the symptoms ("scary" immigrants). As I say, if we blame the man who walks through the door, instead of the man who leaves the door open, then yes we are going to offend people who percieve you as overgeneralising the behaviour of immigrants as benefits-claiming freeloaders. Many people here are descended from immigrants who have contributed a great deal to British society.

Originally Posted by Thomas
After all, if any of them ever decide to come here they will have to put up with more than a few questions being asked of them. Their defense of Islam seems strange compared with the 24/7 abuse that christianity has to put up with. It looks like moderator Woodrow finally summed it up with his comments.
People don't know what England is like. They are made to believe a "fairytale" version, and are basically just trying to get a better future for themselves but mainly for their children, as would anyone from a destitute condition. Nothing more or less.

Originally Posted by Thomas
Wherabouts on the south coast are you? I am in Eastbourne.
Southampton.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And when done by supposed followers Islam in the name of Allah..., well I remain surprised that the Ummah doesn't rise with one voice, as it does when Islam is otherwise defamed and slandered, and express its justified condemnation of the perversion of the true way of Islam.
Trust me, all Muslims feel this way, probably more sadness than surprise, about the Ummah not having "One Voice". It is the most crucial issue of this day and age for Muslims all around the world. The problem is, Muslims have become obsessed with petty differences and the wide geographic distribution of Muslims has made communication (even if these differences were overcome) problematic at best.

However, I would like to point out, that there are many separate Muslim organisations who have (whether we hear them or not) spoken out, rallied and protested, throughout the past decade, to condemn the increased acts of terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam.

There is a fairly long list of some of them here: http://www.theamerican-----------/tam...izatio/0012210
Reply

Raphael
10-29-2009, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Omar_21:30
The problem is, Muslims have become obsessed with petty differences
A wild understatement :exhausted
Reply

tommtomm
10-29-2009, 04:34 PM
Hi all,
I am a Muslim British, living in the UK and to be honest my Christine brother (for I consider everyone brothers and sisters) you have a very good point, like all situations the extremist have the loudest voice mainly due how boring us moderate Muslims would be, if we got interviewed. I mean come on even I find a half blind, hook handed Muslim fundamentalist funny and entertaining. Who wants to hear me talk and see let’s just all love each other.

NO ONE!

So although you might think these are huge issues. They really are not, because the truth is that less than 1% are extremists and do not want to join the rest of society.

What needs to happen is our country (UK) needs to grow a back bone and say I do not care. If you want to live in this country then play with our rules.
This is coming from a Muslim who lived all his life in the uk, segregation is the ultimate form of tribalism, and should not be condoned.
Reply

Thomas
10-29-2009, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Omar_21:30
Dear Thomas

I too am from the South Coast of U.K. My father is an 'indigenous' Englishman by which I assume you mean the 'white' descendants of the Celtic, Roman, Anglo-Saxons, Germanaic, Nordish people and so forth who migrated there from Europe across the centuries.

My mother is one of the immigrants who came from Pakistan in the 70s.

I find that your perception of Islam is highly blinkered. Muslims are not a uniform homogeneous mass.

I also feel you have been hoodwinked by the rhetoric of parties like UKIP and BNP, who masquerade under the guise of defending British/Christian values when you know as well as I do that any 'Christian' values England holds as a country today is merely paying lip service.

Muslims couldn't care less about a tree being called a 'Christmas Tree'. I was involved in many school nativity plays, yes, as a Muslim child! I played one of the three wise men, and even a sheep (ironic maybe)! As to why the tree was renamed 'Tree of Light', I think you are asking the wrong people. I think you have that wonderful post-enlightenment 'secularism' movement to thank for that one, which has been politically correcting and championing 'freedom from religion' for the last few decades.

Regarding this mass influx of crazy burka-wearing placard-waving Muslims who are swimming across the channel just to get a chance to live in Mighty Blighty, you do realise that this is, 1. A scaremongering vote-grabbing bogeyman stereotype the likes of which was used to caricature communists during the Cold War, and, 2. A problem which reflects more on the ridiculous open door policy the government adopted as a means to boost the economy, that it does on the immigrants themselves? If you open the door, how can you blame the man who walks in?

Now look Thomas, the majority of true practising Muslims (I won't call them "moderate", because that is like saying "watered down" and is therefore oxymoronic), who follow the Qur'an as it is meant to be followed, do not, I repeat NOT want to bomb you. For a Muslim to take one innocent life is like killing all of humanity. Also, they do not want shariah law in the U.K. They don't even want you to rename your Christmas Tree! :D They just want what you want: to practise their beliefs, to coexist alongside their fellow human being and People of the Book (Christians and Jews - people held in high regard in the Qu'ran) and to have a good future for themselves and their family. That's IT. No fine print, no BS'ing.

I would also like to talk to you Grace Seeker.



Firstly, what 'radar screen' are you talking about? The wonderfully free and fair agenda-less media coverage? Muslims do not need to apologise for the acts of someone who flagrantly contradicts their core beliefs and values. Islam is not the only religion of whose some alleged 'followers' have innocent blood on their hands. Yes, people got bent out of shape over the issue of the Danish cartoon - I wrote an entire thread dedicated to condemning these placards - but why are you judging Islam based on a select group of Muslims? Why don't you do your research into Islam with a rational mind, find out whether the 1 percent of verses that deal with fighting are referring specific contexts of self-defence against those who attack Muslims, or if they are referring to clandestine acts of mass violence against entire populations. I think you will find it is the former. Thomas: I would kindly advise you do the same.

Peace, may we come to a common understanding.
Hi again Omar and thanks for your reply and for telling me you are in Southampton.
Just replying to say that my posts seem to be mixed up with Grace Seekers posts so hope you can untangle her comments from mine at your end.....

Regards Thomas
Reply

abdullah_001
10-29-2009, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
The mention of christianity abuse was meant to be a quite seperate issue and whilst moslems dont neccessarily use profain language, millions of others do and christians just have to put up with it. It was in this sense that I think Moslems are wimpish about wanting to make an issue of things every time Mohammed or Allah is perceived as being abused. Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?
First of all, it is "Muslim", not "Moslem".

Second, it is funny to read "Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?"

Are the Christians who are purposefully drawing offensive cartoons to dismay Muslims praying for Muslims as well?

But Muslims are smarter than that, we don't say Christianity is at fault because a christian decides to do so.
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-29-2009, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by abdullah_001
Are the Christians who are purposefully drawing offensive cartoons to dismay Muslims praying for Muslims as well?
How do you know that the people drawing what you consider to be offensive cartoons are in fact Christians? I don't know the faith of the Danish cartoonist one way or the other. But it wouldn't surprise me if he was of no particular faith, as that seems to be the dominate category of people in Europe these days.

I do seem to recall the lady teacher who taught in the school was a Christian. She was there because she loved teaching and loved children, and was motivated by her faith to go and be of service, not as an evangelist,for she also loved Muslims without feeling a need to convert anyone. She simply did it because it needed to be done and she could do it. And the name was chosen for the Teddy bear was chosen not by her, but by the students themselves at the suggestion of a Muslim classmate. But, of course, once it made the news, the unorganized masses were somehow able to find their voice and unify themselves in order to make her the focal point of their anger. How strange the things that they can get organized for, and the things they can't.

While I know that sounds like an accusation (and I admit it is), it is one that I express because I just don't understand why one is so easy to have happen and the other is so hard. That just doesn't compute. Why is it that way?
Reply

abdullah_001
10-29-2009, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
How do you know that the people drawing what you consider to be offensive cartoons are in fact Christians? I don't know the faith of the Danish cartoonist one way or the other. But it wouldn't surprise me if he was of no particular faith, as that seems to be the dominate category of people in Europe these days.

I do seem to recall the lady teacher who taught in the school was a Christian. She was there because she loved teaching and loved children, and was motivated by her faith to go and be of service, not as an evangelist,for she also loved Muslims without feeling a need to convert anyone. She simply did it because it needed to be done and she could do it. And the name was chosen for the Teddy bear was chosen not by her, but by the students themselves at the suggestion of a Muslim classmate. But, of course, once it made the news, the unorganized masses were somehow able to find their voice and unify themselves in order to make her the focal point of their anger. How strange the things that they can get organized for, and the things they can't.

While I know that sounds like an accusation (and I admit it is), it is one that I express because I just don't understand why one is so easy to have happen and the other is so hard. That just doesn't compute. Why is it that way?
I would say the inital reaction by the Muslims would give them a hint.

Edit: I don't know anything about the teddy bear incident to be honest, I was just speaking of the cartoons which were drawn purposefully as I said in my post.
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-29-2009, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by abdullah_001
First of all, it is "Muslim", not "Moslem".
Apparently both terms are used within the Ummah: American Moslem Foundation
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-29-2009, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by abdullah_001
I would say the inital reaction by the Muslims would give them a hint.
Give who a hint of what?


You said that the cartoons were drawn by Christians. How do you know that the cartoonists were in fact actually Christians?
Reply

abdullah_001
10-29-2009, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Apparently both terms are used within the Ummah: American Moslem Foundation
"American Moslem Foundation (AMF) is a charitable non-profit organization that has been established by members of Muslim community in the Northwest and registered with the State of Washington in December 1988 (see introduction). The mission of AMF is to try safeguard the religious heritage of Muslims in America by providing religious education at various age levels. In addition by efforts and action programs we hope to promote building of communities of Muslims in America (mission). AMF is supported financially by its members through membership dues and also by donations by good Muslims in United States. Membership is open to all Muslims irrespective of color, race national origin, ethnicity, and various Islamic "madzaheb". The AMF is run by its "Board of Directors" on behalf of its members."

Through out the entire website it is spelled "Muslim" except the name of the organization, which is really odd.

Edit:
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You said that the cartoons were drawn by Christians. How do you know that the cartoonists were in fact actually Christians?
Kurt Westergaard has described himself as a “cultural Christian, a culture-liberal Atheist“. Danish Affairs
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Thomas
10-29-2009, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by abdullah_001
First of all, it is "Muslim", not "Moslem".

Second, it is funny to read "Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?"

Are the Christians who are purposefully drawing offensive cartoons to dismay Muslims praying for Muslims as well?

But Muslims are smarter than that, we don't say Christianity is at fault because a christian decides to do so.
You are misunderstanding my post- It is concerning immigration TO THE UK.
90% of its residents are not practising christians but agnostics, sceptics or atheists and merely living in country that has long term christian traditions which they like because our traditions are not oppresive. The remainig 10% of real christians are unlikey to have drawn any 'offensive' cartoons but they DO have to hear and accept constant profanities and abuse from the 90% of unbelievers... And if you came to live here or already do live here you would need to cope with many more daily problems than worrying about whether somebody has drawn a cartoon that you dont like! I think the cartoons you mention may be the ones drawn by a Danish artist which country has the same tradions as the UK.

I am not accusing you of being faulty in any way. I just want you to learn to accept that anybody with any kind of faith has to suffer ridicule and take it on the chin. I am a practising christian and suffer ridicule from my friends who tell me I am believing in fairies and when they swear and use the name of Jesus and God in vain I just let it go over my head. YES. I expect some christians ARE praying for muslims - and even for their conversion to christianity! So you need to lay off the sarcasm as it could be you!

Finally, if you look at all my posts you wll see that I politely asked which is the polite form of address:. MOSLEM or MUSLIM? The response was that it depends on where you are in the world. The answer is there for you to read.... So I will be polite to you instead of sarcastic and call you a muslim.

If you are already in the UK, learn to assimilate!.
If you are not but thinking of coming here, you will need to accept criticism.
If you are not but unlikely to ever come to uk, you are free to stay as you are...
Reply

Thomas
10-29-2009, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by abdullah_001
I would say the inital reaction by the Muslims would give them a hint.

Edit: I don't know anything about the teddy bear incident to be honest, I was just speaking of the cartoons which were drawn purposefully as I said in my post.

Thank you Grace Seeker! Glad I am not the only person to feel the same as you about seeming trivia. Abdullah has heard about the cartoons but not about the teddy bear so he does need to be better informed before fiing off...
Reply

abdullah_001
10-29-2009, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
You are misunderstanding my post- It is concerning immigration TO THE UK.
90% of its residents are not practising christians but agnostics, sceptics or atheists and merely living in country that has long term christian traditions which they like because our traditions are not oppresive. The remainig 10% of real christians are unlikey to have drawn any 'offensive' cartoons but they DO have to hear and accept constant profanities and abuse from the 90% of unbelievers... And if you came to live here or already do live here you would need to cope with many more daily problems than worrying about whether somebody has drawn a cartoon that you dont like! I think the cartoons you mention may be the ones drawn by a Danish artist which country has the same tradions as the UK.

I am not accusing you of being faulty in any way. I just want you to learn to accept that anybody with any kind of faith has to suffer ridicule and take it on the chin. I am a practising christian and suffer ridicule from my friends who tell me I am believing in fairies and when they swear and use the name of Jesus and God in vain I just let it go over my head. YES. I expect some christians ARE praying for muslims - and even for their conversion to christianity! So you need to lay off the sarcasm as it could be you!

Finally, if you look at all my posts you wll see that I politely asked which is the polite form of address:. MOSLEM or MUSLIM? The response was that it depends on where you are in the world. The answer is there for you to read.... So I will be polite to you instead of sarcastic and call you a muslim.

If you are already in the UK, learn to assimilate!.
If you are not but thinking of coming here, you will need to accept criticism.
If you are not but unlikely to ever come to uk, you are free to stay as you are...
Ah, then I misunderstood, many people use the word "moslem" as a derogatory term which is why I corrected it. And I also agree with your post regarding practising Christians. My apologies.

But to address your issue, first we should look at nationalities of various Muslims around the world. If there is any religion on Earth that can be truly called diverse, it is Islam. I am from India, which is much more than USA, in my opinion, a melting pot of cultures.

The fascinating thing about Islam is it's flexibility while at the same time maintaining the firmness and infallibility of its jurisprudence. Islam spread in India roughly around 800 or 900 years ago and today it is the second largest majority in India. And this can also be taken as a pattern in any other country you can think of. You'll find Muslims in almost any part of the world, if not every part of the world! There are Muslims in China, in India, in Russia, in USA, even in UK! They don't consider themselves to be foreigners but rather, they assimilate Islam in their culture!

The beauty of Islam is it does not ask you to give up your rights as a father, or a son, or a nephew in order to be a Muslim. In fact, you'll hear many reverts say they do not feel that reverting to Islam has altered their life drastically in any form.

As for your comment regarding criticism, people can criticize Islam all they want because we all know what happened when people criticized Islam after 9-11. They all ended up becoming Muslims. That's right! So please, go read the Qur'an. Think you've found something your stomach cannot digest? Then come argue with us, you will only end up loving Islam more and more, by Allah's mecry, If Allah wills. It is said statistically, in a few years Islam will be the majority in the world anyway, though only Allah (swt) knows best.
Reply

GuestFellow
10-29-2009, 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by abdullah_001
As for your comment regarding criticism, people can criticize Islam all they want because we all know what happened when people criticized Islam after 9-11. They all ended up becoming Muslims. That's right! So please, go read the Qur'an. Think you've found something your stomach cannot digest? Then come argue with us, you will only end up loving Islam more and more, by Allah's mecry, If Allah wills. It is said statistically, in a few years Islam will be the majority int he world anyway.
:sl:

Yes I realised those who really hate Islam tend to convert. I heard of some Muslims who used to hate Islam but converted by reading the Qur'an.
Reply

mahi
10-30-2009, 12:06 AM
@Thomas,

Just read through the last few pages of the thread, and saw a couple of digs which I think may well be aimed at me, and if they are or are not, either way I am sorry.

The point I was trying to argue is that no land is anyone, no one has a greater right that anyone else. But I doubt that many see it that way as obviously a person who has lived their life in a place would obviously feel or have a greater belonging than those who move in yesterday. I guess what I was trying to argue with is my view using Islam, that land matters not to anything, we are all equal and should gladly welcome one another to each other's houses.

Again, for any offence I'm sorry. Just angers me than in a country I was born in and have lived my whole life and my grandfather lived in, being asian I am still seen classed as an immigrant and not belonging here by many, whilst I truly do feel at home in England.
Reply

Thomas
10-30-2009, 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by mahi
@Thomas,

Just read through the last few pages of the thread, and saw a couple of digs which I think may well be aimed at me, and if they are or are not, either way I am sorry.

The point I was trying to argue is that no land is anyone, no one has a greater right that anyone else. But I doubt that many see it that way as obviously a person who has lived their life in a place would obviously feel or have a greater belonging than those who move in yesterday. I guess what I was trying to argue with is my view using Islam, that land matters not to anything, we are all equal and should gladly welcome one another to each other's houses.

Again, for any offence I'm sorry. Just angers me than in a country I was born in and have lived my whole life and my grandfather lived in, being asian I am still seen classed as an immigrant and not belonging here by many, whilst I truly do feel at home in England.
Hi Mahi

Thanks fo your kind words.
Since you were born here and your forefathers you are unlikely to be among those who are worrying millions of us today as a result of the present government's lack of immigration policies.

I wish you well Thomas
Reply

Insaanah
10-30-2009, 07:56 AM
Originally Posted by mahi
@Thomas,

Just read through the last few pages of the thread, and saw a couple of digs which I think may well be aimed at me, and if they are or are not, either way I am sorry.
Assalaamu alaikum bro Mahi

Just to clarify, anything I said in my post was not aimed at you or any other single person. My point was that everyone was getting heated up, and when that happens, barriers come down, and that's not conducive to a good and rational discussion.
Reply

Thomas
10-30-2009, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
Assalaamu alaikum bro Mahi

Just to clarify, anything I said in my post was not aimed at you or any other single person. My point was that everyone was getting heated up, and when that happens, barriers come down, and that's not conducive to a good and rational discussion.

Thank you Insaan
Like you, I had no intention of being personally offensive to individuals.
All I wanted to do was put over we English's case and why we (collective 'we', meaning several millions..) are a worried nation in such a small island.
As a result of this thread I DO now believe that what we read in the press about christmas trees being renamed, carol concerts being re-branded etc or cancelled is NOT as a result of pressure from muslims but derives from agnostic/atheistic people with their own personal agenda to marginalise christianity. OR, there could be a few hot-headed muslim extremists who, if they got the chance, would want a church closed if within 50 yards of a mosque and that sort of silly irrational stuff. We already have a so called 'immam?' with a hook replacing his hand (which I understand is as a result of him making something that exploded..!) in prison here in uk. Before he went to prison he was, apparantly holding what we would see as extreme political meetings in his mosque and firing up very young men to do extremist things. He is clearly a dangerous man and probably making himself as big a nuisance as he can whilst in prison... The problem is that millions of English people here see him as representing Islam, especially within memory distance of a terrorist explosion such as 7/7 in London. Its like a civil war situation where you cant distinguish friend from foe so all muslims are suspect and get the blame.

It has been nice corresponding with you Insaan. God Bless you. Thomas
Reply

zakirs
10-30-2009, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Thank you Insaan
Like you, I had no intention of being personally offensive to individuals.
All I wanted to do was put over we English's case and why we (collective 'we', meaning several millions..) are a worried nation in such a small island.
As a result of this thread I DO now believe that what we read in the press about christmas trees being renamed, carol concerts being re-branded etc or cancelled is NOT as a result of pressure from muslims but derives from agnostic/atheistic people with their own personal agenda to marginalise christianity. OR, there could be a few hot-headed muslim extremists who, if they got the chance, would want a church closed if within 50 yards of a mosque and that sort of silly irrational stuff. We already have a so called 'immam?' with a hook replacing his hand (which I understand is as a result of him making something that exploded..!) in prison here in uk. Before he went to prison he was, apparantly holding what we would see as extreme political meetings in his mosque and firing up very young men to do extremist things. He is clearly a dangerous man and probably making himself as big a nuisance as he can whilst in prison... The problem is that millions of English people here see him as representing Islam, especially within memory distance of a terrorist explosion such as 7/7 in London. Its like a civil war situation where you cant distinguish friend from foe so all muslims are suspect and get the blame.

It has been nice corresponding with you Insaan. God Bless you. Thomas
Nice to know you have go the point :).

Gold bless you too :)
Reply

Iris
10-30-2009, 06:43 PM
Hello Mr.Thomas! Welcome to this place, I'm new here myself...

I admit I have only skimmed through the thread so I'll try to explain how much ever I can relating to the points I did come across.

The idea of getting blessed with virgins in paradise is one of many ways by which God tells us we shall be rewarded for our good deeds in paradise. Women will get similar things for their pleasure there as well, as promised. The term used is 'hoor' and the gender is unspecified, but basically it's all about people getting to enjoy fully in paradise, how much ever they wish to. All the wishes will come true there.

You're not the first Christian I've come across who finds it rather weird that Islam talks about rewards in paradise in these terms. Especially since the teachings in Christianity and Judaism got altered, the descriptions of paradise those people have are different from ours...I have come across some Christians and Jews who now believe that paradise and hell will simply be a state of mind.

In order to understand the concept of paradise in Islam, it is important to understand how much emphasis Islam lays on justice...nothing should ever stand in the way of justice....all the mankinds' deeds will be judged on a Fair scale on the day of judgement. Now, does it make sense that someone who followed all of God's orders properly in this world but didn't exactly get all the happiness and things he deserved, to simply just die and never get compensated? If he was unable to marry, he remained a virgin and practised self-control, to get no Real reward for it in the end? If he did all his duties but didn't even have enough to eat while he was alive here, forget getting married and enjoying other pleasures, shouldn't he be compensated for his losses in a much more gratifying way? Was it his own choice, that the kid who was born in Africa in a poverty-stricken village suffered through his life, while other privileged children in other countries went to fancy schools and ate sushi? I could go on and on with bigger examples but I hope you get the point. Life is unfair to all of us in some way or another, it only makes sense that God balances out our privileges losses in some way at the end, right?

To question why does God think like man is rather strange. As Muslims we believe He knows us better than we know ourselves. The attributes we attribute to God are the best possible attributes so that includes, having infinite knowledge, being Just, basically an powerful Being who lives forever, knows and controls everything. How can He who created us, Not Know what we feel? The pains we go through? The longings we have in this life...(He's the one who engineered us biologically And emotionally). He watches all the deeds of everyone. He knows what humans take pleasure in and so He promises to reward us with all those things we aim for and want in order to be happy and pleased. And that's why paradise is all about pleasures. And oh yes, we believe it will be Very Real, not just some state of mind. If this life is so real, and it's pains, diseases and sufferings so real, then so should be the reward and punishment...it's all common sense.

Anyway, getting to another point of yours, the terrorists believing they will go to paradise. Now, like everyone said, Islam is perfect but the followers aren't. I'm sure you even see Muslim females around in Britain who go around dressed immodestly, without covering their heads and doing all things forbidden by Islam, what caused that to happen? Ignorance of Islam among its followers. Now these ladies might be all uncovered, but Most of them will have a basic idea of what Islam is all about and how everyone will go to either paradise or hell in the end.
I'm simply using this as an analogy to the terrorists' issue at hand. Those people know some things about Islam and don't know some other Very crucial things. Those people, with their limited knowledge of Islam read about the principle of martyrdom and see it as an opportunity to score paradise in an easy way. The concept of Jihad(an overly abused term nowadays) and martyrdom is deep and complex, especially in the age we're living in. Back in the days when Islam was introduced newly to Arabia, Jihad was simply a war fought back when people would attack Muslims just because of their religion...the anatogonists of Islam were trying to finish it off before it could spread and flourish. So the jihad was basically them(Muslims) trying to protect their faith, in the process when people died for the sake of their faith and did not give it up, they were termed martyrs and for those people, God has promised paradise...
Back then it was sort of a black and white picture...but in the world today, when any given country(whether Muslim or not) has it's own share of Non-muslim and Muslim population residing in it and the Muslim governments don't follow Shariah 100%...Jihad becomes a complicated issue. Even scholars of Islam are careful to label any and every activity as Jihad because unjust killing of anyone in Islam is absolutely forbidden...and carries a great punishment. Unfortunately some people are ignorant of the true teachings of Islam...Many of these suicide bombers and whatnot these days, grow up learning their Islam from their masjids etc, they don't even have access to authentic books to learn the truth for themselves! They have been brainwashed to say the least.

While Jihad is an important principle in Islam, it Isn't included in the five basic pillars(which are belief, 5 daily obligatory prayers, Zakaat(obligatory charity), Fasting the month of Ramadan and Hajj(pilgrimage to Makkah at least once in the lifetime)). Islam actually lays an equally big emphasis on what we call jihad-an-nafs..i.e. the struggle against your nafs(nafs=loosely translated as the various kinds of desires that a person has)

Building something useful for the community is sadaqah-jariya(a charity that continues to bring blessing). So if the taliban could channel their energy into building something useful for the community instead of weapons of mass destruction to get an easy entry to paradise, in my opinion, that would be the right route. Take the example of other Muslim countries, even people in Saudi Arabia don't go around planning militant strikes as their ambition in life. The middle eastern countries have more knowledge...they've also learnt to utilize their resources and built up their economy, education and health infrastructure. The leaders who build schools and hospitals for their people are not the same as those who misguide their people and tell them to go blow up civilians. Some people represent Islam right and some wrong...you have got to know Islam's teachings to find out which ones are right. Islam is a religion of peace, if you read about how Mohammad SAW went about his expeditions as a leader, you will definitely see how true that is.

Okay lastly, you raised another point about Muslims being too sensitive when people mock our religion. I'm sorry if this comes off as rude but honestly I don't see people of other religions (example, christianity) being that Connected to their religion. You see plenty of muslims still who pray and remember God five times a day, try matching that with going to church once a week, that too isn't considered 'obligatory' by most. The kind of connection a lot of Muslims in this world have with their religion is not usually seen with those of other religions(correct me if I'm wrong). And thus we hold our Prophet SAW in high esteem and regard(just like we do, with all other Prophets of God including Jesus A.S) We never mock any of them or reject them from being Prophets. We simply believe in that everything that was laid down by our Prophet SAW who was the last one on earth, to have completed the teachings of all religions so far sent by God, the final, true message which will remain un-altered till the end. We follow Quran and Sunnah as our true ways of life. The sunnah and hadith are basically, direct teachings of the Prophet SAW himself. Those are held in equal reverence by us. And one of those teachings is to love and respect the Prophet Mohammad SAW more than anyone else...we're supposed hold him dearer to us than our own self and our own parents. Less than God but more than every other human basically. And naturally, reading about him automatically makes a lot of the Muslims very emotionally connected to him, the kind of connection God wants from us...it's almost like a blessing from him that most Muslims feel this way about our Prophet Mohammad SAW.

Like many members said earlier, if someone were to mock your mother in public or make fun of her, it would raise very strong emotions in you...the feelings are even stronger when people try to attack our Prophet SAW. It's Not supposed to be something you should just ignore, in fact those who do that are considered at a weaker level of faith. But of course that doesn't mean going about having fist-fights with anyone who says such things out of ignorance(although it's more often 'arrogance'). But anyway we have examples of our Prophet SAW himself on how he dealt with the disbelievers when they mocked him and tortured him. He forgave them and prayed for them to be guided. And that's what us as Muslims are supposed to do, pray for the guidance of those who are misguided...Nevertheless it's Very offensive and hurtful when people say those kind of things and we Have to try our best to stop them in the best possible way.
Reply

Insaanah
10-30-2009, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas
Thank you Insaan
We already have a so called 'immam?' with a hook replacing his hand (which I understand is as a result of him making something that exploded..!) in prison here in uk. Before he went to prison he was, apparantly holding what we would see as extreme political meetings in his mosque and firing up very young men to do extremist things. He is clearly a dangerous man and probably making himself as big a nuisance as he can whilst in prison... The problem is that millions of English people here see him as representing Islam, especially within memory distance of a terrorist explosion such as 7/7 in London.
I admit we Muslims have done an appalling job of presenting our faith to the rest of society to the extent that some of us don't talk about it at all. That MUST and has to change.

Hi Thomas,

I'm not sure if the purpose that you came onto the forum for has been fulfilled. As it sounds like you are ending your posts. Either way, most of us acknowledge that immigration is a problem here. Even as a British Muslim who has lived here, integrated and paid into the system my whole life, even I can see that people are arriving by the planeloads and many concessions are being made for them from the word go. To us hard workers, that doesn't seem fair. I think people get the perception that they are all Muslims. Muslims who have been living here a while, (most are now the second generation) are normal people with all the normal concerns of the rest of British society.

If that was your last post, can I leave you with the following two facts?

The Qur'an has a whole chapter named "Mary". In Islam, Mary (Peace be upon her) is considered to be one of the most pious ladies to ever walk the face of this earth.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is mentioned by name in the Qur'an five times more than Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Can I also leave you with the following four separate extracts from the translation of the Holy Qur'an?

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what was revealed to us, and in what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and the descendents of Jacob, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and in what the other prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered." Baqarah Chapter 2: verse 136

Say: "O people of the Scripture, come to a common agreement between us and you: That we will worship none but Allah, and that we shall associate none with Him in His Divinity and that none of us shall take others as lords beside Allah. " And if they turn away, then say; "Bear witness that we are those who have submitted ourselves exclusively unto Him." Aal Imran Chapter3: verse 64

And when Allah will say, "O Jesus son of Mary, did you say to people: "Take me and my mother for Gods beside Allah?", and he will answer: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right to say. Had I said so, You would surely have known it. You know all that is within my mind, whereas I do not know what is within Yours. You, indeed You, are the Knower of hidden things. I said to them nothing except what You commanded me, that is: "Worship Allah, my Lord and Your Lord". I watched over them as long as I remained among them, and when you did recall me, then You Yourself became the watcher over them. Indeed, You are witness over everything. If You chastise them, they are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are the all-Mighty, the All-Wise" Maaidah Chapter 5: verses 116-118

It does not befit the Majesty of God that He should take for Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He only says, "Be!" and it is. Indeed Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him alone. This is the Straight Way." Maryam (Mary) Chapter 19: verses 35-36

Thomas, please ask any other questions you want to on this forum, anytime you want. Some people here have posted thousands of posts (I'm not kidding) so no amount will be too much, and no one's going to say, "Oh no, it's Thomas again!"

May God guide us all. Amen.

Best Regards, and Peace.
Reply

simonpeter
12-17-2009, 06:33 AM
Ok I also have a question- Is this the truth? http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...692572bb8082f0
Al-Irtidaad (to renegade from Islam)

The religion of Islam is the most perfect and complete religion. The laws of Islam are flawlessly designed by Allah. These laws of Islam are for the benefit and of mankind.

Islam induces unity and always condemns division and sects.

Once a person accepts Islam, he sees its beauty and perfection. If after seeing the beauty of Islam, a Muslim turns away from it, it means he turned away from perfection towards imperfection, disassociating himself from the unity of the Muslims ummah towards a way that is unacceptable by Allah.

Allah always wishes good for His servants. By one accepting Islam, he will be Insha Allah entitled to paradise. However, after accepting Islam, one turns renegade, it means he has become entitled to Jahannam (Hell). This is not what Allah wishes for His servants. To prevent more people from becoming true candidates of the fire of Hell, Allah legislated a deterrent for it, i.e. the law of execution.

This law of executing the renegade is a unanimously accepted rule according to all Muslims.

Al-Hadith

Sayyiduna Ibn Abbaas radhi allahu anhuma says: Nabi sallalahu alayhi wasallam said "Execute the one who renegades from his Deen." (Sahih al-Bukhariy Hadith6299, Sunan al-Nasaa’iy Hadith4059 edited by Shaikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah)

Sayyiduna ‘Uthmaan radhiyallahu anhu narrates hearing Nabi Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam as saying "……The one who changes his religion after accepting Islam must be executed." (Sunan al-Nasaa’iy Hadith4057 edited by Shaikh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah)

Sayyiduna Abdullah radhiallahu anhu narrates Nabi Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam as saying "It is not Halaal to kill a Muslim except for 3 reason: …no.3.The one that turns away from his Deen, thereby disassociating himself from the group of Muslims."(Sahih Muslim Hadith4351 edited by Shaikh Khalil ma’moon Sheeha)

Ijma’

The one who renegades from Islam must be executed is the unanimous verdict of the sahaaba, none of them rejected it.

The unanimity of the Sahaaba on an issue is conclusive evidence of the same.

The Fuqaha (Jurists)

All the 4 Mazhabs are unanimous that a renegade must be executed if he does not revert to Islam. Hereunder are classical texts from each of the 4 Mazhabs:

Al-Hanafiyyah

Imam al-Marghinaaniy says: "If a Muslim, may Allah forbid turns away from Islam, the religion of Islam should be presented to him. If he has any doubts they should be cleared…and he should be kept under supervision for 3 days. If he reverts to Islam, he must be set free, otherwise he should be executed. (Al-Hidaya) Allamah Ibn ‘Aabideen says: "Note well! It is unanimous that a renegade from Islam must be executed" (Rasaa’il Ibn Aabideen)

Al-Maalikiyyah

Imam Maalik says: "The one who renegades from Islam to another religion and exposes it will be asked to repent from his action. If he does not repent, he must be executed." (Al-Mu’atta lil Imam Maalik)

Al-shaafi’iyyah

Imam al-Shaafi’iy says: "One who renegades from Islam will not be left alone, either he reverts to Islam or he will be executed." (Kitab al-Umm)



Al-Hanaabilah

Allamah Ibn Qudaama al-Hanbaliy says: "All the scholars are unanimous that a renegade must be executed." (Al-Mughniy with Sharh al-Kabir Vol.10 Pg.74 Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyyah Beirut)

From the above it is explicitly clear that there is no leeway in the religion of Islam regarding executing a renegade from Islam.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Reply

aadil77
12-17-2009, 10:36 AM
yep^ but it in this age it rarely happens and in only certain muslim countries and you also have to be dumb enough to announce that you've left islam
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-17-2009, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
yep^ but it in this age it rarely happens and in only certain muslim countries and you also have to be dumb enough to announce that you've left islam
Your answer acknowledges that, even if it isn't practiced today, it is still a part of the codified understanding of Islam as an appropriate response to those who leave Islam.

How does this EVER happening, at any time and place or for any reason, fit what I am constantly hearing about there being "no compulsion in religion"? This seems very much to be a form of compulsion.
Reply

czgibson
12-17-2009, 11:30 AM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
How does this EVER happening, at any time and place or for any reason, fit what I am constantly hearing about there being "no compulsion in religion"? This seems very much to be a form of compulsion.
It's an obvious contradiction, but look on the bright side - it must be pretty effective as a way of controlling the populace.

Peace
Reply

aadil77
12-17-2009, 11:39 AM
Theres no compulsion in you becoming muslim, but its kind of like once you join theres no turning back.

note this:
"The one who renegades from Islam to another religion and exposes it will be asked to repent from his action. If he does not repent, he must be executed." (Al-Mu’atta lil Imam Maalik)
I'm not knowledgable on the subject but I think the emphasis in on preventing that apostate from creating a trial in society, by him leaving islam and exposing it he is potentially putting doubts in new and existing muslims, he is potentially putting off people from accepting islam.

Thats my view
Reply

Insaanah
12-17-2009, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Your answer acknowledges that, even if it isn't practiced today, it is still a part of the codified understanding of Islam as an appropriate response to those who leave Islam.
Peace, Grace Seeker,

Not just Islam, I believe?

Leviticus
24.16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. As well the stranger as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy
12.6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend who is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, `Let us go and serve other gods,’ which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers

12.7 (namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth),

12.8 thou shalt not consent unto him nor hearken unto him, neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him;

12.9 but thou shalt surely kill him. Thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Peace.
Reply

Woodrow
12-17-2009, 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Your answer acknowledges that, even if it isn't practiced today, it is still a part of the codified understanding of Islam as an appropriate response to those who leave Islam.

How does this EVER happening, at any time and place or for any reason, fit what I am constantly hearing about there being "no compulsion in religion"? This seems very much to be a form of compulsion.
Peace Gene,

Just my opinion here. I see "no compulsion in religion" as applying to non-Muslims and not to Muslims. We are forbidden to force any non-Muslim into accepting Islam. Being non-Muslim does not mean the person is an enemy or should be treated as an enemy unless they act as an enemy with attacks intended to destroy us.

As to it's application regarding Muslims, as a Muslim I can not comprehend how or why a Muslim, would even consider leaving Islam, unless he/she is a very serious sinner who has no love for Allaah(swt). for me this is why I see an Apostate as being an enemy. For us Muslims there is compulsion to remain Muslim, this compulsion being Love of Allaah(swt). I see it as inconceivable for a Muslim to leave Islam unless they have become an enemy of Allaah(swt)
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-17-2009, 12:31 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by aadil77
Theres no compulsion in you becoming muslim, but its kind of like once you join theres no turning back.

Dr. Jamal Badawi, Member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research and the Fiqh Council of North America, states the following:

There are scholars who distinguish between apostasy on a personal level, which is not punishable by death, and apostasy that is accompanied by what we call today high treason, in which case the punishment is for high treason, not for apostasy.


Allah Almighty knows best.


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503547720
Reply

S_87
12-17-2009, 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Your answer acknowledges that, even if it isn't practiced today, it is still a part of the codified understanding of Islam as an appropriate response to those who leave Islam.

.
it still is practised and valid today, however like any other crime must be under shariah court and law. individuals cannot take matters into their own hands
Reply

titus
12-17-2009, 01:17 PM
Just my opinion here. I see "no compulsion in religion" as applying to non-Muslims and not to Muslims. We are forbidden to force any non-Muslim into accepting Islam.
You deleted some posts on another thread concerning what I am about to post because it was off topic. I hope it is more appropriate here.

A member has posted that one of the reasons that a Muslim country can attack a non-Muslim country is if that country does not allow its citizens to convert to Islam. Yet Islam does not allow it's members to change from Islam.

Isn't this a double standard?
Reply

aamirsaab
12-17-2009, 01:30 PM
:sl:
The ruling on apostacy only applies to those who FIGHT against the state (or Islam). If it applied to any and all apostates, there wouldn't be any apostates shouting their mouths off about how Islam treats apostates because they'd all be dead!
Reply

Woodrow
12-17-2009, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by titus
You deleted some posts on another thread concerning what I am about to post because it was off topic. I hope it is more appropriate here.

A member has posted that one of the reasons that a Muslim country can attack a non-Muslim country is if that country does not allow its citizens to convert to Islam. Yet Islam does not allow it's members to change from Islam.

Isn't this a double standard?
This is an appropriate thread for that question.

Yes, it is a double standard. the rules applying to us as Muslims are much stricter than what we would apply to non-Muslims. Double standard yes, unfair or unacceptable to Muslims? NO.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-17-2009, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
Peace, Grace Seeker,

Not just Islam, I believe?


Leviticus
24.16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. As well the stranger as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy
12.6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend who is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, `Let us go and serve other gods,’ which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers

12.7 (namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth),

12.8 thou shalt not consent unto him nor hearken unto him, neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him;

12.9 but thou shalt surely kill him. Thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Peace.

Granted. But here you don't see the claim that there is no complusion in ancient Judaism that Islam makes for itself.
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Grace Seeker
12-17-2009, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
The ruling on apostacy only applies to those who FIGHT against the state (or Islam). If it applied to any and all apostates, there wouldn't be any apostates shouting their mouths off about how Islam treats apostates because they'd all be dead!
But the website which posted the fatwa seemed to indicate that one of the problems of Islam was that this WAS NOT being applied across the board and that it should be. I got the distinct impression that they would indeed be more happy with "they'd all be dead" than to allow a person to become an apostate Muslim. And the best I've seen anyone here say is that the ruling isn't always carried out, not that they disagreed with the ruling itself.
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Uthman
12-17-2009, 08:49 PM
The no compulsion vs. apostasy punishment issue was explained by brother islamiclife in this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/aqeedah/...-religion.html

Basically, the verse has a certain context which is understood by examining it's sabab an-nuzool or it's cause of revelation. Once it's meaning is understood in in context, it becomes clear that there is no contradiction.
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Grace Seeker
12-17-2009, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Peace Gene,

Just my opinion here. I see "no compulsion in religion" as applying to non-Muslims and not to Muslims. We are forbidden to force any non-Muslim into accepting Islam. Being non-Muslim does not mean the person is an enemy or should be treated as an enemy unless they act as an enemy with attacks intended to destroy us.

As to it's application regarding Muslims, as a Muslim I can not comprehend how or why a Muslim, would even consider leaving Islam, unless he/she is a very serious sinner who has no love for Allaah(swt). for me this is why I see an Apostate as being an enemy. For us Muslims there is compulsion to remain Muslim, this compulsion being Love of Allaah(swt). I see it as inconceivable for a Muslim to leave Islam unless they have become an enemy of Allaah(swt)

The problem that I have with what you have said, Woodrow, is that when this is taken alongside the predominate view that those who are raised by Muslim parents in Muslim countries must also surely be Muslims, that you are saying that such individuals don't actually have freedom to choose, for it is already chosen for them. If the law, as you interpret it, was to be fully enforced, the only way for a person raised in Saudi Arabia to chose anything other than Islam would be to leave one's homeland. And, taking it to the next level, since Islam also argues that all persons are born Muslims and then fall away, it seems that some fundamentalist cleric could use that understanding as the perfect excuse to start terrorizing any who didn't conform to Islamic rule as having become apostates since birth and by not submitting to the authorities over him to be guilty of treasonous activity and thereby worthy of death.
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جوري
12-17-2009, 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
who didn't conform to Islamic rule as having become apostates since birth and by not submitting to the authorities over him to be guilty of treasonous activity and thereby worthy of death.
The majority of Islamic rituals are carried out in the privacy of ones homes, if one didn't openly declare him/herself an apostate and an enemy of the state, I don't see how any 'extremist cleric' could possibly find out?
unless you are talking about regular breaking of the law as occurs in any country of the world and subject to punishment in whatever form is constituted?

all the best
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aamirsaab
12-17-2009, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But the website which posted the fatwa seemed to indicate that one of the problems of Islam was that this WAS NOT being applied across the board and that it should be. I got the distinct impression that they would indeed be more happy with "they'd all be dead" than to allow a person to become an apostate Muslim. And the best I've seen anyone here say is that the ruling isn't always carried out, not that they disagreed with the ruling itself.
This is one of the major problems with using online q and a's - they don't always go into sufficient detail on what they mean or fully explain their terminology (case in point: what constitutes a renegade? How is an apostate actually proven to be an apostate etc)

Mere utterance of apostacy is not enough grounds for the apostacy punishment in Islam - I don't think one can be arrested on that front, much less take it to court on that basis!

It's the same with all laws in Islam; unless there is actual evidence of the crime (or a confession from the person in question), there can be no punishment adminstered.

You have to keep in mind the practicalities of this ruling; there has to be a significant line where the punishment begins and ends, otherwise any muslim whoever expressed the slightest amount of doubt in Islam (which I'm sure many of us have done at one moment in our life since we're human beings!) would be put to death!

p.s; I'm not denying the acual punishment by the way - I agree with that part.
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Woodrow
12-17-2009, 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The problem that I have with what you have said, Woodrow, is that when this is taken alongside the predominate view that those who are raised by Muslim parents in Muslim countries must also surely be Muslims, that you are saying that such individuals don't actually have freedom to choose, for it is already chosen for them. If the law, as you interpret it, was to be fully enforced, the only way for a person raised in Saudi Arabia to chose anything other than Islam would be to leave one's homeland. And, taking it to the next level, since Islam also argues that all persons are born Muslims and then fall away, it seems that some fundamentalist cleric could use that understanding as the perfect excuse to start terrorizing any who didn't conform to Islamic rule as having become apostates since birth and by not submitting to the authorities over him to be guilty of treasonous activity and thereby worthy of death.
Peace Gene,

I see where you are coming from and my view was basically in terms of an ideal situation in which all the people were sincere Muslims and would act as Muslims if a person became an Apostate. Sadly, I have to admit this does happen or has happened:

it seems that some fundamentalist cleric could use that understanding as the perfect excuse to start terrorizing any who didn't conform to Islamic rule as having become apostates since birth and by not submitting to the authorities over him to be guilty of treasonous activity and thereby worthy of death
I will avoid the common reply and try to address this in my own words.

While it would be difficult for an apostate to continue living in an Islamic Country, they should not be treated unjustly and should only be prosecuted if their actions are proven to be treason. I am aware this will not be the case in some countries that call themselves Islamic, but for the majority of the world's Muslims there is no fear of persecution and there are apostates living peacefully in a number of Islamic countries. Although I am certain family and friends will try to convince them to return to Islam.
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Eliphaz
12-18-2009, 09:39 AM
Regardless of the context, do you all honestly think that killing someone for leaving Islam is right under any circumstances?

You say that a 'sincere Muslim' would act 'as Muslms' but I personally think that the average Muslim would have nothing to do with it. All it would take is one scholar and a mass of blind anger. Do you think that these laws should have been laid out a bit more clearly?
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Cabdullahi
12-18-2009, 10:58 AM
i would like to understand you people as if we're extraterrestrial creatures
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Woodrow
12-18-2009, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by Eliphaz
Regardless of the context, do you all honestly think that killing someone for leaving Islam is right under any circumstances?

You say that a 'sincere Muslim' would act 'as Muslms' but I personally think that the average Muslim would have nothing to do with it. All it would take is one scholar and a mass of blind anger. Do you think that these laws should have been laid out a bit more clearly?
Just my opinion, for leaving Islam and nothing else, I do not think it is right to kill them.

I do not believe Sharia requires that either. the death penalty for apostacy is quite difficult to implement and does not focus on simply killing a person because they have decided they no longer want to be Muslim. There has to be witnessed actions that can prove the person is a danger to the country.

Yes, mob rule can and does result in violents actions. Us humans sometimes fail to think, mob rule and vigilante justice does occur and it is not limited to Islam. Up until the early 1960s it was very common throughout the Southern US, to a point that almost made it look like regular Saturday Night Entertainment.

Mob rule and vigilante justice is not Islam it is not even human, it is humans failing to act as humans.
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Muslim Woman
12-18-2009, 04:30 PM
Salaam/Peace

Originally Posted by Eliphaz
.. do you all honestly think that killing someone for leaving Islam is right under any circumstances?
when Prophet pbuh described about his night journey ( Jerusalem to heaven and returned back ) then several new Muslims could not believe him and left Islam . I have not read that any single one was killed because of this . So , i think , it's clear that if one does not do any harmful things to Muslim or Islam , then there is no punishment.

related link:

Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam?
By Dr. Jamal Badawi


[Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth - God will not forgive them, nor will guide them in any way.] (An-Nisaa' 4:137)


It is important to note in the above verse that if the Qur'an prescribes capital punishment for apostasy, then the apostate should be killed after the first instance of apostasy. As such there would be no opportunity to "again come to believe and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth". In spite of these acts of repeated apostasy, no capital punishment is prescribed for them

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1178724000686
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Grofica
12-18-2009, 05:15 PM
I dont know thomas i welcome you to the board but honestly i dont think you are here to talk or to understand you just want to rant and rave...
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Pygoscelis
12-18-2009, 09:13 PM
The problem here is the joining of church and state in Islam. Too often I have heard that treason need not be against the country, but can be against the religion too. If an ex muslim were to become a Christian for example and start preaching salvation through Jesus, many muslims have told me that would be treason and would rightly be punishable by death. That very much alarms me. Especially given that Islam itself is a religion that preaches to outsiders (creating a deadly double standard).
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Grofica
12-18-2009, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The problem here is the joining of church and state in Islam. Too often I have heard that treason need not be against the country, but can be against the religion too. If an ex muslim were to become a Christian for example and start preaching salvation through Jesus, many muslims have told me that would be treason and would rightly be punishable by death. That very much alarms me. Especially given that Islam itself is a religion that preaches to outsiders (creating a deadly double standard).
America was founded on the same principle the only difference is everyone is trying to be so politically correct now. The problem with america is we took away religion from state. as soon as we took morals away from schools and government is when america started to go down the tubes...

remember columbine?????
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Pygoscelis
12-19-2009, 12:57 AM
I do remember columbine. I also remember Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate, David Koresh, and 9/11.
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Karl
12-19-2009, 03:03 AM
Hello Thomas,

It all depends exactly what you mean by "assimilation" here.

Firstly, just WHY exactly is it essential for a foreigner to "assimilate"? As long as they obey your laws and don't create trouble, then there is simply no real NEED to assimilate to your "British ways". Secondly, it is simply not POSSIBLE for immigrants who's religions are completely extraneous to the "British way" to assimilate to that. For to do so would definitely be in some form of violation of their religious tenets. This is something that does not apply to Islam alone, but also other religions such as Hindu, other Christian denominations, Jews etc.

Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment too. Just think if you went over to Saudi Arabia. Are YOU going to assimilate to Arab culture and have 4 wives who dress in burquas, you dressing in Arab garb as well, spend a lot of your time inside mosques, eating falafel and kebabs all day and never crave for a single bottle of beer? When you take a summer holiday over to Spain for a few weeks, are you then going to learn Spanish, go to bullfights, take up the flamenco guitar and burn your mouth out with chilies all day? NO, you're NOT, BECAUSE you are British, that is your whole identity. And that's why those from foreign lands who come into your country don't have an interest in living your way of life. They aren't interested in sitting in pubs all night, picking up loose women, and going to soccer matches to have riots. Many immigrants simply are not interested in many or most aspects of your culture, and you should not automatically take this as a "snub". It's just that they come from backgrounds just too alien to yours and are unable or disinterested to switch to your "way of life", just as you would probably have complete disinterest in living like an Arab if you moved to Saudi. Do you understand now where I'm coming from here?

Also don't be too quick to assume that it is Muslims who are responsible for bringing down your Christmas trees there. There are a LOT of communists and atheists around these days who's agenda is to destroy Christianity. Muslim's know too well that Christianity is the religious tradition of your country, and they respect that. I don't believe that Muslims would be responsible for trying to undermine and threaten Christianity. They know that doing so would be equivalently audacious as pockets of British Christians living in Saudi trying to bring down mosques and banning Eids.

The MAIN problem is that England has a very left wing government that has for long been trying to knock out the monarchy, and British conservative culture, and has implemented policies that encourage intoducing all kinds of foreign ethic groups and their extraneous cultures and religions. This is the reason why you have introduced your "problems". Your government has bought about culture clashes, and this is something that has been created by Britain's OWN DOING. You can't just blame the immigrants for a problem that you yourself have created. Of course this problem is not something exclusively of a British issue. Europe and the USA have also made the exact same bed as you, so now they will just have to lie in it.
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Tony
12-19-2009, 06:16 AM
Britain = Equality and Diversity. Rights and Respect. All people with equal access to services and equal under the law. The right to choose for oneself what to think and believe. This is what makes us a rich nation beyond monetary boundaries, and why people wish to come here.
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Grace Seeker
12-19-2009, 07:29 AM
Through a mutual friend, I am aquainted with the teenage girl from Ohio who is the daughter of Muslim parents. She chose to convert to Christianity. And now feels threatened that her own parents might seek to have her executed in accordance with this Fatwa.

I don't want to say that this is indeed what her parent's plans are, because we all know that teenagers can over-react. But I know enough of the case from sources beyond the media to know that she really does believe the threat is real.

In Somalia the execution of converts from Islam to Christianity (or any other religion) have been sanctioned by the state itself. Last year, for example, Sunni Muslims in Somalia beheaded Mansuur Mohammed who was a Christian convert. At the time of his beheading Muslims celebrated by chanting Allah Akbar. To my knowledge Mohammed had done nothing treasonous to the state of Somalia, nor even to Islam other than becoming a Christian.

Egyptian authorities have prevented Maher El-Gowhary, a Muslim-born Christian convert, from leaving the country. He was detained at Cairo Airport. His passport confiscated and he was advised that he is barred from traveling on orders from a 'higher authority'.

Maher and his 15-year-old daughter, Dina, who also embraced Christianity, were traveling to China on 17th September 2009, on a two-week holiday.

Ibrahim Habib, chairman of United Copts GB, who spoke with El-Gowhary during his detainment at the airport, said that Maher was treated very badly by airport security, and was told of his travel ban "less than an hour before departure."

Now, fortunately these folks aren't being threatened with execution, but even still the case seems like a form of governmental harassment. They are not being charged with any crime, certainly not treason, unless of course the act of converting is itself seen as treason. And if conversion is equated with treason, then I suggest that there is indeed compulsion in Islamic religion.
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Eliphaz
12-19-2009, 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The problem here is the joining of church and state in Islam. Too often I have heard that treason need not be against the country, but can be against the religion too. If an ex muslim were to become a Christian for example and start preaching salvation through Jesus, many muslims have told me that would be treason and would rightly be punishable by death. That very much alarms me. Especially given that Islam itself is a religion that preaches to outsiders (creating a deadly double standard).
This.

Originally Posted by Grofica
America was founded on the same principle the only difference is everyone is trying to be so politically correct now. The problem with america is we took away religion from state. as soon as we took morals away from schools and government is when america started to go down the tubes...

remember columbine?????
But the difference is Christianity does not have a doctrinal place in government whereas Islam encourages or rather requires (under an Islamic State) government enforcement of religious punishments. Americans are the first to admit America is going to the dogs, but at least no-one is getting harrassed or killed by the state for leaving their religion and so they have a right to freely choose their beliefs.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Now, fortunately these folks aren't being threatened with execution, but even still the case seems like a form of governmental harassment. They are not being charged with any crime, certainly not treason, unless of course the act of converting is itself seen as treason. And if conversion is equated with treason, then I suggest that there is indeed compulsion in Islamic religion.
These stories are of course, isolated incidents, but they do beg the question of whether this sort of thing would escalate and become more common under a proper Islamic State. Or rather, maybe fewer people would admit to it, for they would probably 'keep up appearances' and pretend to be Muslim. Who knows how many people did this in the past.
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aamirsaab
12-19-2009, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Eliphaz
This.



But the difference is Christianity does not have a doctrinal place in government whereas Islam encourages or rather requires (under an Islamic State) government enforcement of religious punishments. Americans are the first to admit America is going to the dogs, but at least no-one is getting harrassed or killed by the state for leaving their religion and so they have a right to freely choose their beliefs.



These stories are of course, isolated incidents, but they do beg the question of whether this sort of thing would escalate and become more common under a proper Islamic State. Or rather, maybe fewer people would admit to it, for they would probably 'keep up appearances' and pretend to be Muslim. Who knows how many people did this in the past.
I dont think you guys fully understand the reason BEHIND the apostacy punishment. So I'll examplify.

Let's say you work for coca-cola. One day you decide to pack up and leave (which you are well within your right to). But then let's say you go blabbing about company secrets or start slandering coca-cola as a company. Now, the head of coca-cola (or the branch you work at) would be well within his legal right to sue you.

It's a similar concept in Islam: you can leave it and join another (again you are well within your human and legal right to), but if you start blabbing our ''secrets'' (which is why originally this law was sent down [I've covered this in the past]) or slandering (and/or attacking our ''employees''), you're ass is going to court. And if found guilty, will receive a punishment.

There's no double standard here: as a muslim or convert to Islam, if you slander any other ''company'' or ''employee'' you can be taken to court!
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Chuck
12-19-2009, 01:56 PM
I think the main reason is, if this law is true as there is dispute over its application, anyhow, if any one wants to become a Muslim he/she has to be serious enough even to risk their life. It was put into place when Muslims were very small community, and it is opposite to what any small religion would do, they probably want to encourage people, yet this law basically would have discouraged most people from becoming a Muslim.
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Eliphaz
12-19-2009, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I dont think you guys fully understand the reason BEHIND the apostacy punishment. So I'll examplify.

Let's say you work for coca-cola. One day you decide to pack up and leave (which you are well within your right to). But then let's say you go blabbing about company secrets or start slandering coca-cola as a company. Now, the head of coca-cola (or the branch you work at) would be well within his legal right to sue you.

It's a similar concept in Islam: you can leave it and join another (again you are well within your human and legal right to), but if you start blabbing our ''secrets'' (which is why originally this law was sent down [I've covered this in the past]) or slandering (and/or attacking our ''employees''), you're ass is going to court. And if found guilty, will receive a punishment.

There's no double standard here: as a muslim or convert to Islam, if you slander any other ''company'' or ''employee'' you can be taken to court!
This is ridiculous.

How you can compare Coca-Cola to Islam, blabbing company secrets to changing your personal religious beliefs, and being sued or going to jail for a few years to being killed?

(In the case of MI5 spy David Shayler revealing security secrets the maximum sentence he could have gotten was six years, and this is for revealing government secrets, not Coca Cola's!)

People don't understand the reason behind the punishment? Well I think it is laid out quite clearly here:


Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17

It takes a leap of imagination to call that treason and an even bigger leap of faith to take that as God's will.
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Uthman
12-19-2009, 03:22 PM
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...-apostasy.html
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aadil77
12-19-2009, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But the website which posted the fatwa seemed to indicate that one of the problems of Islam was that this WAS NOT being applied across the board and that it should be. I got the distinct impression that they would indeed be more happy with "they'd all be dead" than to allow a person to become an apostate Muslim. And the best I've seen anyone here say is that the ruling isn't always carried out, not that they disagreed with the ruling itself.
just to clarify - thats not a problem with islam
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Grace Seeker
12-19-2009, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
just to clarify - thats not a problem with islam
But you seem to imply that you agree that this is a problem. If not with Islam, then where is the problem located? Certainly I have a problem with the ruling of the fatwa, and I continue to find that no one is willing to say that the fatwa is not an expression of Islamic jurisprudence.
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Pygoscelis
12-19-2009, 08:06 PM
I have to agree, its a rather off the mark comparison.

I can sort of see the treason bit, though its a deadly double standard. But the secrets bit? You muslims have secrets that us non-muslims are not supposed to know about? Never heard of that before.

There's no double standard here: as a muslim or convert to Islam, if you slander any other ''company'' or ''employee'' you can be taken to court!
The double standard is that islam says to kill those who leave it and work against it, and islam also encourages you to do the same thing to other religions.

A Muslim leaves Islam and "accepts jesus as his personal savior, etc", "takes partners with god" and is encouraged by Christianity to spread the faith and try to convert other Muslims to Christianity. This is seen as treason and punishable by death?

A Christian leaves Christianity "and accepts the one true God, Allah and Mohammed as his prophet", "renouncing that Jesus is the path to salvation" and is encouraged by Islam to spread the faith and try to convert other Christians to Islam. Should this also be seen as treason and punishable by death?
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aamirsaab
12-19-2009, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I have to agree, its a rather off the mark comparison.

I can sort of see the treason bit, though its a deadly double standard. But the secrets bit? You muslims have secrets that us non-muslims are not supposed to know about? Never heard of that before.
Military secrets.

If I join the US army, work my way up and find out all the military tactics and then defect to uzbekistan, I'm a dead man.

The double standard is that islam says to kill those who leave it and work against it, and islam also encourages you to do the same thing to other religions.
No it doesn't! You and eliphaz completely missed the point of my post. Read it again, I'm not explaining myself twice - I made it pretty clear the first time.

A Muslim leaves Islam and "accepts jesus as his personal savior, etc", "takes partners with god" and is encouraged by Christianity to spread the faith and try to convert other Muslims to Christianity. This is seen as treason and punishable by death?
Only if he's causing trouble within the muslim community. Like I don't know, demonising Allah at the same time. Or tactically saying his little speech infront of muslims whilst they gather for the friday prayers.
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Grace Seeker
12-19-2009, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Military secrets.

If I join the US army, work my way up and find out all the military tactics and then defect to uzbekistan, I'm a dead man.


No it doesn't! You and eliphaz completely missed the point of my post. Read it again, I'm not explaining myself twice - I made it pretty clear the first time.


Only if he's causing trouble within the muslim community. Like I don't know, demonising Allah at the same time. Or tactically saying his little speech infront of muslims whilst they gather for the friday prayers.
The thing is, aamirsaab, that your qualifications which limit the application to the scenarios you've set forth here are not found anywhere in the fatwa. And it seems that there are more than just a few scattered cases where Muslims have set forth to make it a much broader interpretations application to instances that do not include any sharing of military or state secrets, that have nothing to do with stirring trouble up, where people just wish to go quietly on their own way worshipping in their own private way, but no longer in keeping with the tenets of Islam. And because they were once identified as being Muslim, others within the Ummah have deemed them worthy of death for nothing more than converting to another religion. And those who are condoning this are not just a few isolated extremists, but acts sanctioned by government bodies and officials.


So, let me give a specific scenario. Hatice is a young girl from eastern Turkey. She was born to Muslim parents. And raised in a small community that was exclusively Muslim. Her father and brothers regular attend prayers at the local mosque. She has generally prayed at home with her mother, and though as a teenager she became less regular in keeping this practice, she always had a revival of personal devotion every year at Ramadan.

A few years ago, Hatice graduated high school and went off to study at university. She ended up studying in Istanbul, where she was exposed to all manner of different beliefs. Many of her professors were at best nominal Muslims. A few even were so bold to declare themselves as athiests. This led Hatice begin to ask questions about her faith, and even to in time doubt it. She found herself not really believing the Qur'an to be a revealed book. But she was so used to celebrating all of the traditions that she grew up with that she continued to celebrate Ramadan, even as she realized that she didn't believe in the very thing she was celebrating.

After graduation from university, she applied to grad school in London. There she completely quit saying prayers completely. She would dress as here peer group dressed, went to local pubs with them, even engaging in drinking games with the boys that she began to date. One day she woke up and wondered how it was that her life had changes so much from when she was younger. There was one girl that she was interning with that she felt close enough to that she was able to confide her internal conflict. That girl happened to be a buddhist. And this buddhist shared how she didn't believe in God or gods per se, but did find meaning in life from the teachings of the Buddha.

When Hatice returned home, that year, she no longer kept any of the practices of Islam. When asked why not, she said that she didn't believe in Islam or that Muhammed was the prophet. That she had found truth and meaning in the principles of Buddhism which she now kept and that she considered herself no longer a Muslim, but a Buddhist.

Her mother cries. Her father says that she was raised a Muslim and that she is still a Muslim. That she must be crazy, and been brainwashed, for no rationally thinking person would ever leave Islam once they knew the beauty and truth of it. He tries to have her committed to a mental hospital. But Hatice will have nothing of it. She gets into a big fight with her family, and tells them that they are the ones who have deluded themselves. She declares that she is not a Muslim. That she is old enough to make such decisions for herself. She is a Buddhist and she is going to remain a Buddhist. Further, she says that they should all realize what fools they are for believing in a God who doesn't even exist. And since he doesn't exist how could he send an angel with a recitation to anyone. Her brother tells her to shut up or he'll shut her up. They revert to their childish taunts of "make me" and other silly things. But that very night her brother, Ahmet, kills her, and claims it is an honor killing both because his sister had allowed herself to become sexually active, was so with non-Muslim men, and she had claimed to have herself left Islam.

Now my question is what, if anything, should the state do with regard to Ahmet?

Does the answer to that question change any if we move the story from eastern Turkey to Anwar province of Pakistan? Or to London?
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Woodrow
12-19-2009, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by Eliphaz
This is ridiculous.

How you can compare Coca-Cola to Islam, blabbing company secrets to changing your personal religious beliefs, and being sued or going to jail for a few years to being killed?

(In the case of MI5 spy David Shayler revealing security secrets the maximum sentence he could have gotten was six years, and this is for revealing government secrets, not Coca Cola's!)

People don't understand the reason behind the punishment? Well I think it is laid out quite clearly here:


Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17

It takes a leap of imagination to call that treason and an even bigger leap of faith to take that as God's will.
Please be aware. That states the maximum punishment. Apostasy does not carry a Hadd (Mandatory) punishment. Death for Apostasy is not mandatory punishment and has seldom if ever been applied by a legal court in any Islamic country in modern times (1800s-now)
Reply

جوري
12-19-2009, 11:45 PM
To Eliphaz..

the punishment for high treason in the U.S is Death!

please see: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...enb/ROSENB.HTM

I don't know what the coca cola analogy is all about?.. The prophet (p) has given reprieve to several apostates (browse this forum for more details) since the topic has been discussed perhaps a hundred times over.

interestingly the punishment for apostasy in Judaism is also death!

all the best!
Reply

KAding
12-20-2009, 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by Grofica
America was founded on the same principle the only difference is everyone is trying to be so politically correct now. The problem with america is we took away religion from state. as soon as we took morals away from schools and government is when america started to go down the tubes...
It was? God doesn't get mentioned at all in the US constitution. Religion only gets mentioned in that it is illegal for the US government to formally recognize any religion. Apostacy was never illegal in the US either as far as I know. Removal of religion from government and law (though not politics of course) was quite explicit. So the founding principle was clearly very much different from the Islamic one.

remember columbine?????
^o) What about it?
Reply

Asiyah3
12-20-2009, 08:36 PM
Peace, Thomas

I haven't read every single post on this thread, but I truly hope you will stay on this forum for a longer time :) I feel you will learn alot and get new kind-of views.

I am also very glad you came here and told us about your issues and thoughts :)

We would love it if you'd stay here and you're welcome to the family :D
Reply

GuestFellow
12-20-2009, 08:45 PM
I don't think the non-Muslim members have actually bothered reading that.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-21-2009, 05:41 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I don't think the non-Muslim members have actually bothered reading that.
I've read it. And my concern is that it appears that in a number of places in the world that Muslims have not read it, for we hear more and more stories of incidents where people seek to enforce the law of apostasy with execution for those who are not treasoness toward the state, but only have reject Islam in favor of another belief that they genuinely find to be superior. If, according to the article cited, the law against apostasy is not meant to be applied in those circumstances, then why is it being applied and why are even government officials becoming complicit in such applications?
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-21-2009, 06:00 AM
Salaam/Peace

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
....we hear more and more stories of incidents where people seek to enforce the law of apostasy with execution for those who are not treasoness toward the state, but only have reject Islam

In my country ( Bangladesh ) , I have read this news many times that hundreds Muslims convert to Christianity each yr because missiionaries offer them free medical service , free education to kids , job and money . So far , have not heard that any single ex-Muslim was killed .

When i read revert to Islam stories , I found that many new Muslims faced hostile reactions from non-Muslim families and neighbourhood. A Christian Missionary became Muslim , married a nun and she also became Muslim faced bomb attack ; their kid died. On TV interviews , I heard how some hindus faced problem when they wanted to accept Islam but But never saw any media coverage about the life threats new Muslims get from families..

I guess , as world media is normally anti - Islam , they pick up only those stories where Muslim react violently ; but when the same incident take place by non-Muslims , media don't cover that .
Reply

KAding
12-21-2009, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
I guess , as world media is normally anti - Islam , they pick up only those stories where Muslim react violently ; but when the same incident take place by non-Muslims , media don't cover that .
In many Muslim countries it is illegal to apostatize or proselytize. That simply isn't true in non-Muslim countries regarding their own dominant religions. Of course conversions often cause social tensions, but that is something different from official criminalization and judicial punishment.

I think you'll have a hard time framing the Muslims as victims here. Fact of the matter is that most Muslims would never accept it if other countries would implement laws regarding apostasy and preaching similar to those in the Muslim world. Some here have, indeed, gone as far as saying it is a valid cause for jihad!
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KAding
12-21-2009, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I don't think the non-Muslim members have actually bothered reading that.
There is apparently no consensus about this among Muslims. That is not the fault of non-Muslims.
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GuestFellow
12-21-2009, 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If, according to the article cited, the law against apostasy is not meant to be applied in those circumstances, then why is it being applied and why are even government officials becoming complicit in such applications?
There is no country in the world that adopts the full Islamic Law. Learn to distinguish between Islamic principles and those who put it into practice incorrectly.
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GuestFellow
12-21-2009, 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
There is apparently no consensus about this among Muslims. That is not the fault of non-Muslims.
I never said who fault it was, I said whether the non-Muslim members who contributed towards this topic have read that article posted by Uthman, I thought some non-Muslim members didn't.
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Grace Seeker
12-24-2009, 06:34 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
There is no country in the world that adopts the full Islamic Law. Learn to distinguish between Islamic principles and those who put it into practice incorrectly.
No. Just as Christians bear witness to the Christian faith by the ethic of their lives, so do Muslims bear witness to the nature of the Islamic faith. I understand that not all people bear credible witness in either group. But, when government officials become complicit in the actions that you would say are not the proper practice of Islam and yet claim to be doing them as an expression of Islamic principles put into practice, what is a non-Muslim to do, except realize that he is at the mercy of an Islam that refuses to police itself and that what you have termed to be Islam practiced incorrectly has become normative within the Ummah.

If your typical Muslim spends more time protesting the non-Islamic behavior of non-Muslims than the non-Islamic behavior of those who profess to be practicing Islam, then what does that say about the undervaluing of Islamic principles by Muslims themselves? The external Jihad has replaced the internal Jihad in terms of relative significance in Islamic life and nothing could be more contradictory to true Islam than that.
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Pygoscelis
12-25-2009, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
There is no country in the world that adopts the full Islamic Law. Learn to distinguish between Islamic principles and those who put it into practice incorrectly.
Perhaps that is for the same reason that there is no country that adopts complete communism. Perhaps human nature makes it impossible. Power corrupts. The USSR was never communist. It just purported to be. Would you say that is the same situation with Saudi Arabia and Islam?
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GuestFellow
12-25-2009, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Perhaps that is for the same reason that there is no country that adopts complete communism. Perhaps human nature makes it impossible. Power corrupts. The USSR was never communist. It just purported to be. Would you say that is the same situation with Saudi Arabia and Islam?
Saudi Arabia is a monarchy. They have not implemented the full criminal jurisdiction of the Sharia nor have they have implemented economic and social principles based upon the sharia.

Oh the full Sharia has been implemented in the past. So it is still possible today to implement all of the Sharia.
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Muslim Woman
12-25-2009, 05:22 PM
Salaam/Peace

Originally Posted by KAding
In many Muslim countries it is illegal to apostatize or proselytize.

To be a Muslim/ to remain as a Muslim , one needs to believe that there is no god but God and Muhammed pbuh is the messenger of God.

if one does not believe in these 2 testifications , it's useless not to let him/her accept other faith openly because s/he is not a Muslim anymore. So , if any Muslim majority country really has this law that forbids Muslims to accept other faith , it should be changed.



I think you'll have a hard time framing the Muslims as victims here.
What I meant is media only report when any ex - Muslim faces difficulties ; media remain silent when new Muslims face life threats .
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Grace Seeker
12-25-2009, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
What I meant is media only report when any ex - Muslim faces difficulties ; media remain silent when new Muslims face life threats .
I think that varies widely. And my guess is that we also have different levels of awareness depending on whose ox is getting gored.


My own thought is that people should be free to personally evangelize for any religion, and that governments should never support the cause of any given religion, pro or con, vis-a-vis another religion. But that all religions, should their adherents desire to give expression to their beliefs, be given a chance to have equal opportunity to express their voice(s) in the marketplace of ideas.
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GuestFellow
12-25-2009, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I think that varies widely. And my guess is that we also have different levels of awareness depending on whose ox is getting gored.
When Muslims leave Islam, they get rewarded by the mass media. Most of these ex-Muslims have became very active after the event of 9/11 and gained mass publicity. Some received rewards for being brave. When a non-Muslim converts to Islam, the media could care less.

There has been a rise in hatred towards Muslims after 9/11, there has even been a video game of killing Muslims, I have not see the media report that.

People have nearly the same awareness when it comes down to Islam and terrorism. When it comes down to Islamophobia and hatred acts towards Muslims, the media either does not report it or when it does report it some how the topic gets diverted to criticism of Islam.
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Grace Seeker
12-25-2009, 08:33 PM
I still think it goes both ways, and the way we perceive the truth of these events is not just rooted in the events themselves but our own internal way of looking at the world and therefore what catches our attention as well.
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GuestFellow
12-25-2009, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I still think it goes both ways and the way we perceive the truth of these events is not just rooted in the events themselves but our own internal way of looking at the world and therefore what catches our attention as well.
It depends on how much exposure we have too. I can confidently say the mainstream media has done a good job of spreading the message about terrorism but when it comes down to Islamophobia, very rarely reports such incidents than compared to terrorism.
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Uthman
12-25-2009, 08:45 PM
:salamext:

Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I can confidently say the mainstream media has done a good job of spreading the message about terrorism but when it comes down to Islamophobia, very rarely reports such incidents than compared to terrorism.
You mean like this and this?
Reply

GuestFellow
12-25-2009, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
:salamext:

You mean like this and this?
:wa:

That was quite a significant event, a Muslim lady got stabbed in the court while no one actually bothered to help her, that would catch the media's attention. Actually that is one example where the topic got slowly diverted into criticism of Islam, when sister Yvonne Ridley had a debate with Douglas Murray. There have been other events that should be reported too related hatred towards Muslims and Islam itself.

There is a distinction between fair and objective reporting on Islamophobia and terrorism. The media uses same repetitive words, terrorism and fundamentalists, which obviously strikes to me as brainwashing, its goal to create moral panic within the public. If the mainstream media reported cases of Islamophobia, it will have an impact on public perception on Muslims and Islam.
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abdullah_001
12-26-2009, 02:30 AM
:sl:

it seems to me people are getting mixed up with preconcieved moral codes and state laws. The reason (or seems to me at least) this law has been prescribed is simply to stop people from converting and reverting based on their whims and desires and to discourage people from leaving the fold of Islam or disuniting the Muslim nation in general. What I have seen many people overlook so far is that the ramification, if the law wasn't in place, would be immense.

I always thought Islam was a thinking person's religion and I can see why some people would have a hard time accepting this ruling. Rather than getting flustered over details we should look at the big picture first.

(typing from phone)

Only Allah(swt) knows best.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-26-2009, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by abdullah_001
:sl:

it seems to me people are getting mixed up with preconcieved moral codes and state laws. The reason (or seems to me at least) this law has been prescribed is simply to stop people from converting and reverting based on their whims and desires.
From my non-Islamic perspecitve, this is exactly what it wrong with the law. If there truly is no compulsion in religion, then one should not be restricting one's ability to follow whims and desires to both come AND go. Islam appears quite happy to accept people who revert into on a whim, but unwilling to acknowledge that those who are in it may actually desire to convert out of it.
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GuestFellow
12-26-2009, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
From my non-Islamic perspecitve, this is exactly what it wrong with the law. If there truly is no compulsion in religion, then one should not be restricting one's ability to follow whims and desires to both come AND go. Islam appears quite happy to accept people who revert into on a whim, but unwilling to acknowledge that those who are in it may actually desire to convert out of it.
If they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state will have no interest in prosecuting them. The state will not execute them if they go along with their daily lives. They can leave the country if they wish, no one will hunt them down.
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ummzayd
12-26-2009, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
So, let me give a specific scenario. Hatice is a young girl from eastern Turkey. She was born to Muslim parents. And raised in a small community that was exclusively Muslim. Her father and brothers regular attend prayers at the local mosque. She has generally prayed at home with her mother, and though as a teenager she became less regular in keeping this practice, she always had a revival of personal devotion every year at Ramadan.

A few years ago, Hatice graduated high school and went off to study at university. She ended up studying in Istanbul, where she was exposed to all manner of different beliefs. Many of her professors were at best nominal Muslims. A few even were so bold to declare themselves as athiests. This led Hatice begin to ask questions about her faith, and even to in time doubt it. She found herself not really believing the Qur'an to be a revealed book. But she was so used to celebrating all of the traditions that she grew up with that she continued to celebrate Ramadan, even as she realized that she didn't believe in the very thing she was celebrating.

After graduation from university, she applied to grad school in London. There she completely quit saying prayers completely. She would dress as here peer group dressed, went to local pubs with them, even engaging in drinking games with the boys that she began to date. One day she woke up and wondered how it was that her life had changes so much from when she was younger. There was one girl that she was interning with that she felt close enough to that she was able to confide her internal conflict. That girl happened to be a buddhist. And this buddhist shared how she didn't believe in God or gods per se, but did find meaning in life from the teachings of the Buddha.

When Hatice returned home, that year, she no longer kept any of the practices of Islam. When asked why not, she said that she didn't believe in Islam or that Muhammed was the prophet. That she had found truth and meaning in the principles of Buddhism which she now kept and that she considered herself no longer a Muslim, but a Buddhist.

Her mother cries. Her father says that she was raised a Muslim and that she is still a Muslim. That she must be crazy, and been brainwashed, for no rationally thinking person would ever leave Islam once they knew the beauty and truth of it. He tries to have her committed to a mental hospital. But Hatice will have nothing of it. She gets into a big fight with her family, and tells them that they are the ones who have deluded themselves. She declares that she is not a Muslim. That she is old enough to make such decisions for herself. She is a Buddhist and she is going to remain a Buddhist. Further, she says that they should all realize what fools they are for believing in a God who doesn't even exist. And since he doesn't exist how could he send an angel with a recitation to anyone. Her brother tells her to shut up or he'll shut her up. They revert to their childish taunts of "make me" and other silly things. But that very night her brother, Ahmet, kills her, and claims it is an honor killing both because his sister had allowed herself to become sexually active, was so with non-Muslim men, and she had claimed to have herself left Islam.

Now my question is what, if anything, should the state do with regard to Ahmet?

Does the answer to that question change any if we move the story from eastern Turkey to Anwar province of Pakistan? Or to London?
Since no-one has so far answered your question let me attempt to.

So-called 'honour killings' are not sanctioned in Islam, not for fornication (for which the punishment is lashes not death anyway) or for apostasy (treasonous or otherwise). The individual is not permitted to take the law into his own hands.

As has already been mentioned by Muslim Women, the Prophet pbuh allowed people to leave the fold of Islam without having them hunted down and killed.

Also, I must mention that I find it very amusing when Christians try to distance themselves from the laws in the OT as if they were nothing to do with them or 'their' God. If you are a Christian you MUST accept that God had made those commands about executing blasphemers and so on. Whether they have been abrogated or not, they did apply at the time and people were executed according to God's commands, for the sin/crime of blasphemy.
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-27-2009, 04:37 AM
Salaam/Peace

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
.... her brother, Ahmet, kills her, and claims it is an honor killing .....Now my question is what, if anything, should the state do with regard to Ahmet?

It has been mentioned in the forum many times that there is no honour killing in Islam. Neither Quran nor the hadith gives brother any right / power to kill sis if she left Islam or had any unethical affair.

It's up to Judges to decide whether she committed adultery and did anything harmful to Islam or Muslim Ummah and deserved punishment.

If one can't produce 4 witnesses against her , then she will be free of adultery charge and brother will get 80 lashes and his testimony won't be accepted ever.

For killing her and taking law by his own hand , he must get some punishment under any state law. I don't know of any country where it's officially allowed for brothers to kill sisters .
Reply

Muslim Woman
12-27-2009, 04:59 AM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Guestfellow
.....There is a distinction between fair and objective reporting on Islamophobia and terrorism..
HONOR KILLINGS
IN AMERICA & ABROAD


...Accusations fly: "You Muslims, you treat your women like (fill in the blank-something negative of course)"

....Consider the following from the US Department of Justice, General Statistics:
  • Every 9 seconds, a woman is battered.



  • In 1992, the US Surgeon General ranked abuse by husbands and partners as the leading cause of injury to women aged 15-44.



  • Up to 50% of all homeless women and children in the United States are fleeing domestic violence.



  • Yet, there are nearly 3 times as many animal shelters in the United States as there are shelters for battered women. And lest we forget, this is happening in a country where the president has seen fit to violate his marriage vows in a most disgusting abuse of power and exploitation of a young woman. Yet polls reveal that he still maintains support from many Americans.

Given these facts, would anyone dare argue that there is something inherently wrong with these Judeo-Christian Americans? Or with American culture as such?

No, of course not. A history of abuse and violence in families, socioeconomic factors and jealousy on the part of husbands and boyfriends are just some of the explanations given for the abuse of women, especially wives and girlfriends in America.

Walk into a women's shelter that is not targeted to a specific ethnic or cultural group, and you will find women of all races, colors, and of course religions.

The abuse and killing of women for alleged honor crimes is not Islamic.

Nor is the abuse of women inherently as "American as apple pie".


Violence Against Women:

By Samana Siddiqui


http://www.soundvision.com/info/misc/honor.asp
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Eliphaz
12-29-2009, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
When Muslims leave Islam, they get rewarded by the mass media. Most of these ex-Muslims have became very active after the event of 9/11 and gained mass publicity. Some received rewards for being brave. When a non-Muslim converts to Islam, the media could care less.

There has been a rise in hatred towards Muslims after 9/11, there has even been a video game of killing Muslims, I have not see the media report that.

People have nearly the same awareness when it comes down to Islam and terrorism. When it comes down to Islamophobia and hatred acts towards Muslims, the media either does not report it or when it does report it some how the topic gets diverted to criticism of Islam.
I know of Muslims, including myself, who left Islam and don't want to admit it because they are scared they will be killed. It's easy to blame crafty Zionist ploys and the biased media, but propaganda happens on both sides.

I was, once listening to a speech by a fairly respectable sheikh which tried to convince me that all Jews were untrustworthy for Heaven's sakes! For me there have been too many 'unhappy coincidences carried out by confused Muslims' to not question whether there is maybe something wrong on a doctrinal level.

No I have not recieved any pay-outs from government spies nor would I ever spy on any of my friends and family. It makes sense for Muslims to think that people leave Islam based on financial or worldy incentives and that the moral code of the apostates dissolves upon leaving Islam and they essentially become 'sell-outs'. Whilst that may be true for some people, many just want to stop lying to themselves.
Reply

GuestFellow
12-29-2009, 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by Eliphaz
I know of Muslims, including myself, who left Islam and don't want to admit it because they are scared they will be killed. It's easy to blame crafty Zionist ploys and the biased media, but propaganda happens on both sides.
These are two different issues. We are blaming the Zionists for the killings of the Palestinians.

I was, once listening to a speech by a fairly respectable sheikh which tried to convince me that all Jews were untrustworthy for Heaven's sakes! For me there have been too many 'unhappy coincidences carried out by confused Muslims' to not question whether there is maybe something wrong on a doctrinal level.
I'm not who that Sheikh was. Jews, Muslims and Christians believe in the same God. Muslims are supposed to maintain a good relationship with them.

No I have not recieved any pay-outs from government spies nor would I ever spy on any of my friends and family. It makes sense for Muslims to think that people leave Islam based on financial or worldy incentives and that the moral code of the apostates dissolves upon leaving Islam and they essentially become 'sell-outs'. Whilst that may be true for some people, many just want to stop lying to themselves.
Okay. Of course you will not be executed, you're not a threat to the Muslim community or towards an Islamic government. Just thought I should say that.
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Supreme
12-29-2009, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Eliphaz
I know of Muslims, including myself, who left Islam and don't want to admit it because they are scared they will be killed. It's easy to blame crafty Zionist ploys and the biased media, but propaganda happens on both sides.

I was, once listening to a speech by a fairly respectable sheikh which tried to convince me that all Jews were untrustworthy for Heaven's sakes! For me there have been too many 'unhappy coincidences carried out by confused Muslims' to not question whether there is maybe something wrong on a doctrinal level.

No I have not recieved any pay-outs from government spies nor would I ever spy on any of my friends and family. It makes sense for Muslims to think that people leave Islam based on financial or worldy incentives and that the moral code of the apostates dissolves upon leaving Islam and they essentially become 'sell-outs'. Whilst that may be true for some people, many just want to stop lying to themselves.
No offense, but at the beginning of the post you said you'd left Islam out of fear, but by the end you'd concluded you'd left to stop lying to yourself.
Reply

Eliphaz
12-29-2009, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
No offense, but at the beginning of the post you said you'd left Islam out of fear, but by the end you'd concluded you'd left to stop lying to yourself.
No I left it because I didn't want to lie to myself. I do not admit this to everyone and anyone I meet because I do not want my family to suffer in any way. I used the word 'fear' but it is actually more common sense now that I think about it.

Sorry for the confusion, I tend to do that alot!
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Grace Seeker
12-30-2009, 10:15 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
there are nearly 3 times as many animal shelters in the United States as there are shelters for battered women.... Given these facts, would anyone dare argue that there is something inherently wrong with these Judeo-Christian Americans? Or with American culture as such?

I would!! Indeed I preach on such injustices and deficiencies in our culture, our laws, or standards for morality on a regular basis. But, I hardly think that the sins of one group of people stand as justification for another to be engaged in behavior that does not respect the rights of people to self determination -- and that's what the present question boils down to. You can certainly tell me that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones if you want, but what I'm trying to point out is that we all live in glass houses.


I appreciate your above comment:
For killing her and taking law by his own hand , he must get some punishment under any state law. I don't know of any country where it's officially allowed for brothers to kill sisters .
The problem is that I continue to hear stories of the state not doing what you say it should do and looking the other way.

Now, again, America certainly has a terrible history with regard to looking the other way when it comes to civil rights violations. Not saying that any one of us has clean hands. But, 30-40 years ago, these human rights violation stories while common in the US were rare in the Islamic world. However, now we are hearing them more and more coming out of countries with majority Muslim populations. I don't know if that's a product of improved communication, of some type of Islamaphobia, or if there really is an increase.

But whether the events are themselves increasing, or the level is the same and we are just hearing about things that used to go unreported, either way I find the reports disturbing. Disturbing because I think they are wrong and immoral actions to begin with. But also disturbing because they done in the name of Islam even while they seem to go against the heart of what Islam is about. Surely, that dichotomy has to be disturbing to Muslims as well. And, if it is, then why do governments turn a blind eye to them (or in some cases even participate)?
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Muslim Woman
12-31-2009, 09:06 AM
Salaam/Peace


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
... why do governments turn a blind eye to them (or in some cases even participate)?

may be in some cases , Govt. don't want to increase tensions or challege Islamic groups. May be , they fear of loosing votes ....Don't know .

The good thing is sinners can never escape the punishment - if they manage to go unpunished in this world , never can they be safe on the final day .
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Eliphaz
12-31-2009, 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But whether the events are themselves increasing, or the level is the same and we are just hearing about things that used to go unreported, either way I find the reports disturbing. Disturbing because I think they are wrong and immoral actions to begin with. But also disturbing because they done in the name of Islam even while they seem to go against the heart of what Islam is about. Surely, that dichotomy has to be disturbing to Muslims as well. And, if it is, then why do governments turn a blind eye to them (or in some cases even participate)?
I would say they were previously unreported. But consider also that many Muslim countries were also ruled by the British Empire up until half a century ago and therefore there is a sense of turmoil in those countries as a result as they find their own identities again. But regarding henieous actions in the name of Islam, well these groups were around since the early days of Islam, they were known as the kharijites.

What it comes down to is: can we blame every action we deem detestable and immoral on 'misguided' and 'illiterate' people acting out of post-colonial conflict mentality, or is there a deeper issue embedded in certain parts of Shariah law which catalyses this?
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Grace Seeker
12-31-2009, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Eliphaz
What it comes down to is: can we blame every action we deem detestable and immoral on 'misguided' and 'illiterate' people acting out of post-colonial conflict mentality, or is there a deeper issue embedded in certain parts of Shariah law which catalyses this?
A very good question!!! But I suspect that it takes a level of internal self-analysis that while it may indeed be engaged in by some, even many, Muslims, is rather unusual to find on an internet forum of any type regardless of the faith or political background of the forum's constituents.
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Eliphaz
12-31-2009, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
A very good question!!! But I suspect that it takes a level of internal self-analysis that while it may indeed be engaged in by some, even many, Muslims, is rather unusual to find on an internet forum of any type regardless of the faith or political background of the forum's constituents.
I agree. The problem is it requires a kind of study which will always be perceived as biased depending on who carries it out, and how would one begin to carry out such a study? I think a good example of how not to carry out such a study is the way the U.S. and British governments spy on Muslims through programmes like 'Prevent' which can only lead to a police-state kind of situation.

Each religion, each culture, for the most part, has had its share of atrocities committed by its leaders and extremists, whether they are inflicted upon the population of that group or another group, as you say, no one's hands are clean. But the separation of Church and State has absolved Christianity from Western politics in way that is impossible for Islam in the Muslim World, as there will always be that link no matter how tenuous it is and questions must be asked given the all-encompassing nature of Islam.
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