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جوري
10-28-2009, 04:01 AM
Church of Scientology Convicted in France


By NICOLAS VAUX-MONTAGNY
, AP
posted: 13 HOURS 21 MINUTES AGO
comments: 242
filed under: World News

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PARIS (Oct. 27) -- A Paris court convicted the Church of Scientology of fraud and fined it more than $900,000 (euro600,000) on Tuesday but stopped short of banning the group as prosecutors had demanded.
The group's French branch immediately announced it would appeal the verdict.
The court convicted the Church of Scientology's French office, its library and six of its leaders of organized fraud. Investigators said the group pressured members into paying large sums of money for questionable financial gain and used "commercial harassment" against recruits.
The group was fined $600,000 (euro400,000) and the library euro200,000. Four of the leaders were given suspended sentences of 10 months to two years. The other two were given fines of euro1,000 and euro2,000.
However, the court did not order the Church of Scientology to shut down, ruling that it would be likely to continue its activities anyway "outside any legal framework."
Prosecutors had urged that the group be dissolved in France and fined $3 million (euro2 million).
The verdict is "an Inquisition of modern times," said Scientology spokeswoman Agnes Bron, referring to efforts to rout out heretics of the Roman Catholic Church in centuries past.
The head of an association that helps victims of sects, Catherine Picard, called the verdict "intelligent."
"Scientology can no longer hide behind freedom of conscience," she said.
The Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology, founded in 1954 by the late science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, has been active for decades in Europe but has struggled to gain status as a religion. It is considered a sect in France and has faced prosecution and difficulties in registering its activities in many countries.
Defense lawyer Patrick Maisonneuve said during the trial that neither the Church of Scientology nor the six leaders on trial had gained financially from the group's practices.
The original complaint in the case dates back more than a decade, when a young woman said she took out loans and spent the equivalent of euro21,000 on books, courses and "purification packages" after being recruited in 1998. When she sought reimbursement and to leave the group, its leadership refused. She was among three eventual plaintiffs.
Olivier Morice, lawyer for civil parties in the case, said the verdict was "historic" because it was the first time in France that the Church of Scientology has been convicted of organized fraud.
Investigating judge Jean-Christophe Hullin spent years examining the group's activities, and in his indictment criticized what he called the Scientologists' "obsession" with financial gain and practices he said were aimed at plunging members into a "state of subjection."
The Church of Scientology teaches that technology can expand the mind and help solve problems. It claims 10 million members around the world, including celebrity devotees Tom Cruise and John Travolta.
Belgium, Germany and other European countries have been criticized by the U.S. State Department for labeling Scientology as a cult or sect and enacting laws to restrict its operations.
http://news.aol.com/article/church-of-scientology-convicted-of-fraud/497105?icid=main|main|dl2|link7|http%3A%2F%2Fnews. aol.com%2Farticle%2Fchurch-of-scientology-convicted-of-fraud%2F497105
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Amadeus85
10-28-2009, 05:11 PM
Pity that the Frenchmen didnt ban that dangerous sect.
Reply

AlHoda
10-28-2009, 07:01 PM
What is scientology anyway?
Reply

جوري
10-28-2009, 09:21 PM
here is Scientology in a nutshell




that is their god xenu.. he requires that you pay alot of money to be a parishioner of his church.. honestly all you need to know because the rest is even more absurd and I am not sure you'll enjoy a tragic comedy...

:wa:
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Trumble
10-29-2009, 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by Amadeus85
Pity that the Frenchmen didnt ban that dangerous sect.
I prefer being able to make my own decisions as to what is 'dangerous'. One person's 'dangerous sect' is another's 'true religion'; Christians of all people should be aware of that! Obviously crimes were committed, but I see no reason to ban Scientology as such, any more than any other religion/sect/cult should be banned for crimes committed by its clerics or advocates. Of which there have been more than a few and, in all honesty, far worse than anything the Scientologists have done.

The other problem, of course, is that in making something like Scientology illegal, you tend to make it more attractive rather than less to people seeking alternatives to mainstream religion.
Reply

جوري
10-29-2009, 12:35 PM
^^ where I'd agree with that, but Scientology has caused death under strange and bizarre circumstances to its parishioners that wanted out, and made very unusual demands on them for large sums of money.. There is no concept of good or bad, or the common tenets known to all religions, rather spaceships and aliens and batteries filled of souls.. I doubt its own spokespersons like (Tom Cruise and travolta) believe in it as a religion, but I do believe they are being blackmailed..

The definitions of cults vs. religion has several criteria, and unfortunately for 'Scientologists' their practices and numbers doesn't qualify them as a religion.
further, people shouldn't have to accommodate seriously dangerous cults simply out of fear that someone is going to classify their own religion as a dangerous cult.. That to me isn't a good reason to hold out the truth about Scientology else you run the risk of one day having someone you love steal a large sum of money to give to these people and then end up dead in some bath tub....

peace
Reply

ardianto
10-29-2009, 12:38 PM
Church of Scientology is not a religion.
They don't believe in God, but they believe in alien from outer space.

The founder, Ron L Hubbard was a navy soldier in Pacific War who became a science fiction writer. He registered his organization as church for avoid paying taxes. But it causing a confusion, many people assume Church of Scientology is a Christian Church.

PS : Don't mix Church of Scientology with Christian Church, Scientist. That's different.
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czgibson
10-29-2009, 12:57 PM
Greetings,

I'm always glad to hear about Scientology getting shafted by the law. More people need to be aware of what a devious and malign organisation it is.

I think the comparison to the Inquisition is hilarious. :D

Peace
Reply

ardianto
10-29-2009, 01:06 PM
Related links to Church of Scientology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dianetics
Reply

aamirsaab
10-29-2009, 03:04 PM
:sl:
Wow, finally the French government does something intelligent for once.
Reply

Amadeus85
10-29-2009, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
Wow, finally the French government does something intelligent for once.
LOL, that it is not far from truth Aamirsaab.
Reply

tetsujin
10-29-2009, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
^^ where I'd agree with that, but Scientology has caused death under strange and bizarre circumstances to its parishioners that wanted out, and made very unusual demands on them for large sums of money.. There is no concept of good or bad, or the common tenets known to all religions, rather spaceships and aliens and batteries filled of souls.. I doubt its own spokespersons like (Tom Cruise and travolta) believe in it as a religion, but I do believe they are being blackmailed..

The definitions of cults vs. religion has several criteria, and unfortunately for 'Scientologists' their practices and numbers doesn't qualify them as a religion.
further, people shouldn't have to accommodate seriously dangerous cults simply out of fear that someone is going to classify their own religion as a dangerous cult.. That to me isn't a good reason to hold out the truth about Scientology else you run the risk of one day having someone you love steal a large sum of money to give to these people and then end up dead in some bath tub....

peace
What was your point? Are you saying that intimidating or threatening violence or death for apostasy is okay until you begin asking for money? All religions were essentially "cults" until the number of followers grew to a significant size because to an outsider the beliefs and practices are bizarre. That is the reason for resistance to the emergence of new religions throughout history.

The only distinction between cults and religions is based on the number of adherents, or percentage of the population in a state. That doesn't say much towards the veracity of their claims.

All the best,


Faysal
Reply

جوري
10-29-2009, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by tetsujin
What was your point? Are you saying that intimidating or threatening violence or death for apostasy is okay until you begin asking for money? All religions were essentially "cults" until the number of followers grew to a significant size because to an outsider the beliefs and practices are bizarre. That is the reason for resistance to the emergence of new religions throughout history.

The only distinction between cults and religions is based on the number of adherents, or percentage of the population in a state. That doesn't say much towards the veracity of their claims.

All the best,


Faysal
Have you been threatened by death of violence for your current state or are you full of ****?
The number of adherents is a factor in what goes into the definition of cult vs. religion but not all that goes into that def. . As for veracity.. there are at least some basic tenets that are universally accepted and pass not only as pillars of religion but acceptable social mores which this particular cult exempts itself from.. your feelings on the matter as well paranoia has nothing to do with the reality of it.. I think rather you'd love to get anyone's attention to your kuffr state to makeup for the desolate neglect you must feel inside, as I can think of no other reason for an apostate to spend most of his free time on an Islamic forum of all places... you should in fact be running not walking away from us especially under such severe threat of death or violence?

You want to be a gay Scientologist by all means, go find yourself in your new definitions, I am of sick of your half thought attempts at understanding what Islam is and what it stands for..
religion isn't a catchall phrase to describe any adherents, anymore than an aspirin cures all kinds of headaches...


all the best
Reply

tetsujin
10-29-2009, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Have you been threatened by death of violence for your current state or are you full of ****?
Would that make a difference?

The number of adherents is a factor in what goes into the definition of cult vs. religion but not all that goes into that def. . As for veracity.. there are at least some basic tenets that are universally accepted and pass not only as pillars of religion but acceptable social mores which this particular cult exempts itself from.
At least some? Are you trying to make a point? Do you not believe that the revelations from god were a guidance unto all nations, so that they may follow the straight path? I don't think the general response was, "Thanks for the reminder Mohammed/Jesus, that was not necessary but we appreciate the thought". The need for a revelation speaks to the existence of a general moral/social decay. The messengers were sent to educate the people about their inferior way of life and to guide them to the straight path. In that sense, the revelation would not have the "basic tenets that are universally accepted and pass not only as pillars of religion but acceptable social mores".

your feelings on the matter as well paranoia has nothing to do with the reality of it..
I agree. Surprised?

I think rather you'd love to get anyone's attention to your kuffr state to makeup for the desolate neglect you must feel inside, as I can think of no other reason for an apostate to spend most of his free time on an Islamic forum of all places...
I hardly spend most of my free time here, as anyone will see from my posting record that I'm AWOL for months at a time. You should ask yourself why you are so concerned with my presence, as I have nothing to justify to you.

you should in fact be running not walking away from us especially under such severe threat of death or violence?
See above.

You want to be a gay Scientologist by all means, go find yourself in your new definitions, I am of sick of your half thought attempts at understanding what Islam is and what it stands for..
For the sake of those who may be literate and can read and understand English, I am not defending or advocating Scientology and I have nothing to say for or against homosexuality. I do not used the words Muslim/Christian/Scientologist as a pejorative term. Whatever I may be or believe I attempt to maintain a modicum of respect for people.

religion isn't a catchall phrase to describe any adherents, anymore than an aspirin cures all kinds of headaches...
You're right.



All the best,


Faysal
Reply

Raphael
10-29-2009, 07:55 PM
Ahhh Scientology. The cult of choice for nomadic drug addicts.

Tetsujin, may I ask why you left Islam? I am genuinely interested.
Reply

جوري
10-29-2009, 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by tetsujin
Would that make a difference?
Isn't that the whole point?


At least some? Are you trying to make a point? Do you not believe that the revelations from god were a guidance unto all nations, so that they may follow the straight path? I don't think the general response was, "Thanks for the reminder Mohammed/Jesus, that was not necessary but we appreciate the thought". The need for a revelation speaks to the existence of a general moral/social decay. The messengers were sent to educate the people about their inferior way of life and to guide them to the straight path. In that sense, the revelation would not have the "basic tenets that are universally accepted and pass not only as pillars of religion but acceptable social mores".

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ عَلَيْكُمْ أَنفُسَكُمْ لاَ يَضُرُّكُم مَّن ضَلَّ إِذَا اهْتَدَيْتُمْ إِلَى اللّهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ {105}
[Pickthal 5:105] O ye who believe! Ye have charge of your own souls. He who erreth cannot injure you if ye are rightly guided. Unto Allah ye will all return; and then He will inform you of what ye used to do.


So actually it is the general response of what I personally believe to be divine revelation. It really shouldn't and doesn't matter who believes and who doesn't as each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds!
If religion isn't for you, you can and I believe you have walked away rendering all your points on this thread moot!

I agree. Surprised?
Surprised by what?



I hardly spend most of my free time here, as anyone will see from my posting record that I'm AWOL for months at a time. You should ask yourself why you are so concerned with my presence, as I have nothing to justify to you.
You are telling me you have no concern for this forum, yet here you are replying to a thread that didn't address you nor does the subject matter concern you on any level.. should I take that as conscious design apathy?

See above.
I did, and it came up empty!


For the sake of those who may be literate and can read and understand English, I am not defending or advocating Scientology and I have nothing to say for or against homosexuality. I do not used the words Muslim/Christian/Scientologist as a pejorative term. Whatever I may be or believe I attempt to maintain a modicum of respect for people.
The problem is we don't know what your baseline is or how you define your boundaries or what the terms actually denote to you as a person!


You're right.
Indeed..


All the best,


Faysal
and to you!
Reply

Raphael
10-29-2009, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The problem is we don't know what your baseline is or how you define your boundaries or what the terms actually denote to you as a person!
Any you believe that subscription to an ideology changes that? I find it harder to know what the faithful truly believe than an outright atheist.
Reply

جوري
10-29-2009, 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by Raphael
Any you believe that subscription to an ideology changes that? I find it harder to know what the faithful truly believe than an outright atheist.
It isn't a question of whether or not they can behave altruistically, or whether they are not good or not good any more so than the rest of the population.. it is a question of where they draw the line, and the purpose behind their restrictions if they subscribe to any...


:wa:
Reply

Raphael
10-29-2009, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
and the purpose behind their restrictions if they subscribe to any...
That implies that the restrictions of the faithful are due only to the puerile trepidation of retribution. I read somewhere else, someone does not listen to music because they're afraid of having molten lead poured into their ears!
Reply

جوري
10-29-2009, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by Raphael
That implies that the restrictions of the faithful are due only to the puerile trepidation of retribution. I read somewhere else, someone does not listen to music because they're afraid of having molten lead poured into their ears!
Indeed some people are driven by fear, I can't speak for them, but do know that religion like any other topic can only be as deep, philosophical and layered as the level of maturity of the person engaging in said topic..

However, somethings may not have any apparent moral implications (donating your eggs for instance) to childless couples.. it might even come across as selfless and altruistic, but it is not islamically supported .. I can personally go beyond religion to list numerous faults with such an act, all the way from the taxing ramifications of taking high levels of hormones to even the remote possibility that your children might end marrying their own siblings at some point.. Nonetheless many people find nothing wrong with donating their eggs and others find nothing wrong with being surrogates.. (this is a digression) I am merely using it as an example, I don't know how non-Muslims define their moral compass, what the boundaries of their moral compass are.. religion defines my morality and it is beyond rewards and punishment.. I actually see wisdom behind said injunctions, which other people don't, and they can argue endlessly about it and in fact do to which I prefer to adhere to!..

6:68 When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.


and Allah swt knows best

:wa:
Reply

tetsujin
10-29-2009, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Isn't that the whole point?
I fail to see how it is. If an argument or point can be made, it doesn't need my anecdotal experience to make it valid. You can address that alone.


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ عَلَيْكُمْ أَنفُسَكُمْ لاَ يَضُرُّكُم مَّن ضَلَّ إِذَا اهْتَدَيْتُمْ إِلَى اللّهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ {105}
[Pickthal 5:105] O ye who believe! Ye have charge of your own souls. He who erreth cannot injure you if ye are rightly guided. Unto Allah ye will all return; and then He will inform you of what ye used to do.


So actually it is the general response of what I personally believe to be divine revelation. It really shouldn't and doesn't matter who believes and who doesn't as each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds!
If religion isn't for you, you can and I believe you have walked away rendering all your points on this thread moot!
You missed the point precisely. A new religious movement is not distinguishable from a "cult", but only in hindsight. Scientology is as bizarre today to an outsider as any established religion during its formative years.

You are telling me you have no concern for this forum, yet here you are replying to a thread that didn't address you nor does the subject matter concern you on any level.. should I take that as conscious design apathy?
I've said nothing of that sort. You must take my arguments at face value, as I do when I start my posts.

The problem is we don't know what your baseline is or how you define your boundaries or what the terms actually denote to you as a person!
Again, that doesn't matter. If an argument or point can be made, it doesn't need my anecdotal experience to make it valid.

All the best,


Faysal
Reply

جوري
10-29-2009, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by tetsujin
I fail to see how it is. If an argument or point can be made, it doesn't need my anecdotal experience to make it valid. You can address that alone.
What is the point you are trying to make? I am not into guessing.. I only work with what you wrote, it wasn't that cryptic for me to misconstrue it into other than what it is!



You missed the point precisely. A new religious movement is not distinguishable from a "cult", but only in hindsight. Scientology is as bizarre today to an outsider as any established religion during its formative years.
There is nothing 'religious' about their movement.. and obviously my views is that all folks are born on fitrah and that religion (as we monotheists) understand without the minor variants that distinguish each has always been.. it is satisfactory to both the heart and mind without anything bizarre, new or outlandish about it.. and it doesn't include batteries and alien spaceships.. thus your contrast and analogies again fail very short

I've said nothing of that sort. You must take my arguments at face value, as I do when I start my posts.
So which is it, you care to impose your presence on an Islamic forum and in posts where you weren't specifically invited, or you are AWOL and don't like to spend your free time here?



Again, that doesn't matter. If an argument or point can be made, it doesn't need my anecdotal experience to make it valid.

All the best,
Anecdotal? I have no idea what you are trying to say here.. do you have standards or you don't and what are they? Vacillation of principles doesn't interest me and isn't suitable when engaging in a topic specific to clearly characterized definitions.
Reply

Raphael
10-30-2009, 01:06 AM
GS - I wanted to ask what you meant by your signature.

"for the believer no amount of proof is necessary"


I'm not sure whether this is a compliment or a gross insult! :popcorn:
Reply

جوري
10-30-2009, 01:13 AM
it has no complimentary value ................
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Raphael
10-30-2009, 01:17 AM
Thought so, just checking.
Reply

AlHoda
10-31-2009, 12:28 PM
You still did not explain what scientology is? :/
Reply

ardianto
10-31-2009, 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by AlHoda
You still did not explain what scientology is? :/
Click links in post #9 (page 1).

Those are information about their organization, the founder and their 'holly book'.
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