Eternal Punishment

[Eliphaz]

Dear all

As a student of knowledge, I would never claim to know it all and am not ashamed to ask when I am stuck.

I was asked the other day by a non-muslim about the concept of eternal punishment in Islam (wanted to write the other d-word but it gets bleeped out :D ). His argument was, "If God is so forgiving, why can He forgive a murderer but not someone who commits shirk or disbelieves in the existence of God? An eternity in a blazing fire seems like a very unforgiving attitude, and, surely no parent would ever do that to their child so why would God do that to His creation?"

I was wondering what answers people here have given to this kind of question. I have heard an opinion that God will eventually remove all but the worst people from the Hellfire, but can anyone provide any evidence for this?

Jazakallah Khair

[Eliphaz]

Doing a little research, there seems to be an (invalid?) interpretation of the following ayah that although punishment in the Fire is itself eternal, it is also the case that Hellfire itself will eventually be destroyed and/or some inhabitants will be removed:

'The wretched ones will be in the Fire, sighing and groaning, there to remain for as long as the heavens and earth endure, unless your Lord wills otherwise: your Lord carries out whatever He wills.' (11:106-107)

Also, the following ayahs:

'Believers, respond to God and His Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life. Know that God comes between a man and his heart, and that you will be gathered to Him.' (8:24)

'Hell will be the reward of those who return to their Lord as evildoers: there they will stay, neither living nor dying.' (20:74)

Does “neither dies nor stays alive” indicate that dwellers of Hell will be removed from all existence (annihilated) when Hell is itself destroyed? Also, the word khuld (everlasting) is used to describe Paradise but not Hellfire, is there any significance here?

[Sampharo]

Dear Omar,

To answer your last sentence about removing all but the worst people, please note the following:
"Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right)" [4:116]

No one ever leaves hellfire and enters paradise if he has not said "There is no god but Allah" believing it. Believers who sinned so heavily that despite God's mercy still earned time in Hellfire (and even a second is worse than anything we can bare), will be taken out when they were cleansed of their transgressions. God is just and will not make their faith go away.

The murderer is a special case and has a difference of opinion. Some scholars based on the Quranic verse that says: "If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.", and the hadith of the prophet "God refused to make a repentence for the murderer". They believe that a deliberate murderer will not leave Hell. While others (like Ibn Omar) counting on the Quranic verse of complete forgiveness to all sins except disbelief, and the hadith of the man who was forgiven after murdering 100 people, says there cannot be complete loss of faith in God's mercy.

The non-muslim who was debating was talking out of their deepest desires, that paradise can be gained without believing, without working, and without carrying God's charge.

Your internal argument needs to stem from that this is complete heresy that combines many misconceptions, one of which is the "father". Allah is our god, our lord, and the very reason of our existence is to carry the charge: "And We have not created Jinn and human except to worship" [51:56]

Every time you read about judgement day or the Afterlife in the Quran, you will see that it always says "those who BELIEVE and do good deeds". Every deed that a person does in Islam HAS to be for God in order to be rewarded. Every person who DOESN'T believe in God would never be doing anything for him, because to them he doesn't exist and there is no hereafter. All their good deeds will be self-serving. At the most, their good deeds would be for "Karma" or to feel good, which means that they were going after their own self-gratification anyway. So why reward them?

For him, you can use a more worldly argument though, ask him: If there is a free university, that anyone can apply to and sit for the exams, so that they may pass or fail. Those who fail can repeat the test until they eventually all pass. If someone comes in and says: "Isn't it an unforgiving inflexible university that doesn't award passing grades and degrees to those who don't apply!" would you feel it is sensible? No of course not.

Paradise is a membership only club, you apply for a free membership first and foremost by RECOGNIZING the board. When the club is up and running those who do not qualify, get extension time outside until they fix the issues with their qualification according to the criteria. Now that membership is closed, how can someone complain about not getting in when they refused the invitations that was sent to them?

Belief is the structural application process that allows you to enter Heavens at some point. It is God's reward for those who believed his message and no one else's. Hell is what collects everybody else.

[Sampharo]

... there to remain for as long as the heavens and earth endure, unless your Lord wills otherwise: your Lord carries out whatever He wills.' (11:106-107)

"as long as the heavens and earth endure" is an Arabic expression that does not translate in meaning to English. It actually means forever. As for the second part, as per Ibn Kathir the consensus is it refers to sinners being taken out from Hell.

'Believers, respond to God and His Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life. Know that God comes between a man and his heart, and that you will be gathered to Him.' (8:24)

'Hell will be the reward of those who return to their Lord as evildoers: there they will stay, neither living nor dying.' (20:74)

Does “neither dies nor stays alive” indicate that dwellers of Hell will be removed from all existence (annihilated) when Hell is itself destroyed?

That is forbidden Ta'weel brother, you're trying to imagine physical states to descriptions and coming up with non-sensicals. That is not the way to study Quran, please open some tafsir books rather than entertaining such thoughts that confuse your basic faith and Aqidah (Eternal time in Hellfire for non-believers and eternal time for believers in heaven is of the basics of Islamic faith.)

Also, the word khuld (everlasting) is used to describe Paradise but not Hellfire, is there any significance here?

I don't understand though how can you say that you didn't see eternity mentioned on Hellfire in the Quran, it is explicit in dozens of verses: [2:162], [3:88], [4:14] and over 40 more verses!

Sorry brother, but you need a lot more learning before you get into this, and you need to do it by studying through a scholar, not making suggestions and thoughts on your own like that.

Wish you the best

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[Raphael]

not making suggestions and thoughts on your own like that.

Lest you start thinking for yourself! :hmm:

[Raphael]

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Beautiful verse Omar.

[Eliphaz]

"as long as the heavens and earth endure" is an Arabic expression that does not translate in meaning to English. It actually means forever. As for the second part, as per Ibn Kathir the consensus is it refers to sinners being taken out from Hell.

I believe this is what you are referring to:

'Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(The dwellers of Hellfire, who are those who deserve it, they will not die in it, nor will they be living. Rather, they will be a people who will be punished by the Fire due to their sins. It will be gradually killing them and devouring them until they become burnt coals. Then, intercession will be allowed and they will be brought (out of Hell) group by group and they will be spread on the rivers of Paradise. It will then be said, "O people of Paradise, pour (water) over them.'' Then, they will start to grow like the growing of a seed on the muddy banks of a flowing river.) A man among the people said, "It is as if the Messenger of Allah lived in the desert.'' This is how Muslim recorded this narration in his Sahih.'

(Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

I don't understand though how can you say that you didn't see eternity mentioned on Hellfire in the Quran, it is explicit in dozens of verses: [2:162], [3:88], [4:14] and over 40 more verses!

Brother, again with due respect, I am not attacking you or Islam so please chill out. I have read the Qur'an, I am aware of these ayahs. However I am not a scholar and never claimed to be. Besides which, alot of us are in the process of learning whilst juggling busy lives, whilst answering questions from non-Muslims also. I am also aware that our limited conceptualisations of "eternity" as a state of being are just as limited as my "imagined physical states", as is clearly indicated by Ibn Kathir.

[Raphael]

No human can grasp the concept of eternity! The concept of hell is the main reason thinking people have trouble accepting religion, believe it or not!

[Sampharo]

I believe this is what you are referring to:

Yes brother, that is what I was referring to. These are the sinners. There are many verses and hadith that clarify that we do not perish in Hell... That people in Hell have skin so thick to withstand the burning, yet the pain and torture continues (some sheikhs have referred to the fact that nerves are in the skin and the more it endures, the more it hurts) and when their skins are cooked God replaces it... That when bodies are destroyed from the sheer heat, it is remended and back to normal to repeat the endless torture.

A hadith on the authority of Abdullah Ibn Masood, from the prophet -pbuh- narrated in both Sahih Bukhary and Moslem that he said "I know of the last man to exit Hell, and the last to enter paradise. He leaves hell crawling, and is told "Go enter paradise". He goes to enter and is illusioned into thinking that it is full. He says "Lord, it is completely full", so he is told "Go enter paradise, for you will have everything that was in the World before, and ten-folds on top". He says: "Do you mock me, and you are the Malek?!" Abdullah says: I saw the prophet laugh until his molars showed. He said: "That will be the lowest level of any person in heaven".

So exiting Hell and entering Heaven is known fact for sinners who believe in God. But eternal burning of non-believers is set clearly in the vast majority of the verses of Hellfire punishment, they do not leave.

Brother, again with due respect, I am not attacking you or Islam so please chill out. I have read the Qur'an, I am aware of these ayahs. However I am not a scholar and never claimed to be. Besides which, alot of us are in the process of learning whilst juggling busy lives, whilst answering questions from non-Muslims also. I am also aware that our limited conceptualisations of "eternity" as a state of being are just as limited as my "imagined physical states", as is clearly indicated by Ibn Kathir.

Oh brother don't misunderstand me! Just because I put an exclamation mark at the end of my sentence in the last post doesn't mean I am bashing you. ;D

I was exclaiming when you said you only read eternity on paradise verses as to understand what you meant. I know brother that everyone here knows different amounts about Islam and some things are misconceptions, but this is a forum so everyone can only learn through conversation, and it's ok to be passionate about one thing or to exclaim back. :statisfie

Also know that I don't attack muslims, not on this forum or outside even if they disagree or attack me (a few times I got frustrated with a couple but that is normal and I try to correct myself). I also don't do that with respectful non-muslims or non-believers who come here with genuine questions or remarks or wish to learn and understand.

On another level though, Vermin and insects who come here sneaking in and abusing the good tolerance of the forum to try and slide garbage or anti-islamic hogwash and meekly try to fein civility will get a completely different treatment and I along with all good muslims will always be there to defend the sanctity of Islam and the faith of learning young muslims from being led astray deliberately.

[Iris]

Every time you read about judgement day or the Afterlife in the Quran, you will see that it always says "those who BELIEVE and do good deeds". Every deed that a person does in Islam HAS to be for God in order to be rewarded. Every person who DOESN'T believe in God would never be doing anything for him, because to them he doesn't exist and there is no hereafter. All their good deeds will be self-serving. At the most, their good deeds would be for "Karma" or to feel good, which means that they were going after their own self-gratification anyway. So why reward them?

My point exactly.

[Eliphaz]

A hadith on the authority of Abdullah Ibn Masood, from the prophet -pbuh- narrated in both Sahih Bukhary and Moslem that he said "I know of the last man to exit Hell, and the last to enter paradise. He leaves hell crawling, and is told "Go enter paradise". He goes to enter and is illusioned into thinking that it is full. He says "Lord, it is completely full", so he is told "Go enter paradise, for you will have everything that was in the World before, and ten-folds on top". He says: "Do you mock me, and you are the Malek?!" Abdullah says: I saw the prophet laugh until his molars showed. He said: "That will be the lowest level of any person in heaven".

Jazakallah Khairan for clearing that up brother, this hadith is very important. For it is not so much the fact that those who disbelieve do not do anything for God and therefore do not deserve to be rewarded by God, but it is rather the fact that they would be punished eternally as a result, which many non-Muslims find to be disproportionate (in their words not mine). Of course it is not our job to pander to non-Muslim expectations but rather to convey the inherent sophistication of the message.

But as is the case you have shown from the hadith, anyone who believes in God wil be eventually pulled out from that terrible place, after they have suffered their due. (Of course even a small amount in the Fire is too much). This is indeed reassuring for those of us who have many family and colleagues who will not practise or convert no matter how hard we try but have deep down believed at one point or another in their lives; though Allah knows best.

I would just also like to add something I found when reading the tafsir for verses 11:106-17 (which echo 6:128):

'(The Fire be your dwelling place, you will dwell therein forever, except as Allah may will. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing.) ﴿6:128﴾ It has been said that the exception mentioned in this verse refers to the disobedient among the people of Tawhid. It is these whom Allah will bring out of the Fire by the intercession of the interceders. Those who will be allowed to intercede are the angels, the Prophets and the believers. They will intercede even on behalf of those who committed major sins. Then, the generous mercy of Allah will remove from the Fire those who have never done any good, except for saying La ilaha illallah one day of their life. This has been mentioned in numerous authentic reports from the Messenger of Allah , including narrations from Anas bin Malik, Jabir bin `Abdullah, Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri, Abu Hurayrah and other Companions. No one remains in the Fire after this final intercession, except those who will remain there forever without escape. This is the opinion held by many of the scholars, both past and present, concerning the explanation of this verse.'

Tafsir Ibn Kathir

This confirms what you have already said about those believers who committed major sins being the last ones out of the Fire for the 'final intercession'. Saying 'La ilaha illallah' just one day of their life to get out of Hell is indeed a very merciful allowance by Allah for them, although I don't doubt that from being as 'burnt coals' they would have suffered their due.

I think this completely clarifies the matter for me, and it is indeed a deeper matter as I had suspected. Thanks for your help Sampharo, and forgive me for my overdefensiveness: I have a long way to go, but this is a good starting point in my looking at tafsir more seriously insha'Allah.