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The_Prince
11-05-2009, 09:56 PM
this is a developing story so the numbers may rise, it went from 7 to 8 to 9 and now to 12:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8345713.stm
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Elizabeth
11-06-2009, 02:29 AM
Unbelievably sad...The poor families of the soldiers. :cry:
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Supreme
11-06-2009, 09:56 AM
As Obama said, bad enough overseas, but when it happens on US soil...

All we can do is hope God, the supreme judge, adminsters justice to the evil, sadistic perpetrator of this crime.
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Uthman
11-06-2009, 09:40 PM
Shooting raises fears for Muslims in US army

An army major accused of firing on and killing fellow soldiers in Texas is a US-born Muslim.

The reasons for the shooting are not clear, but Major Nidal Malik Hasan was reported to be unhappy at alleged racial abuse he had received.


The BBC's Penny Spiller considers how it may affect the thousands of Muslims in the US military?

Major Nidal Malik Hasan is a career soldier with some 20 years experience, who had trained as a psychiatrist and treated troops returning from combat.

He is also reported to be a devout Muslim, who attended daily prayers at a mosque and was seen on the morning of the shooting wearing traditional Arabic dress as he shopped for groceries.

His relatives said he had become disillusioned with US military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, and strongly opposed his own imminent deployment to Afghanistan.

He had also long wanted to leave the army after suffering harassment because of his religion, they said.

Whatever the motivation, the tragedy at Fort Hood army base highlights the sensitivities surrounding the issue of American Muslims serving in the US armed forces.

Kamran Memon of the organisation Muslims For a Safe America says the subject splits America's Muslim community down the middle.

"Those at one end of the spectrum say we should have nothing to do with the US armed forces as they are involved in wars with our fellow Muslims abroad," he told the BBC.

"Those at the other end say we should definitely serve and help defend our country against those who wish to attack it.

"There is no easy answer to this. We are trying to encourage American Muslims to learn about these issues and use their critical thinking skills to reach informed conclusions so that we can become greater participants in the debate about national security issues."

Fuelled tensions


Mr Memon says the vast majority of Muslim citizens in America are "able to live peaceful lives", even though they have probably suffered some discrimination, if only a hostile look, since the 11 September 2001 attacks.

He believes that this will also be true of those Muslims who serve in the US armed forces.

However, there have been some high profile incidents in recent years that have fuelled tensions.

At a camp in Kuwait, as his unit prepared to move into Iraq in March 2003, Sergeant Hasan Akbar threw hand grenades and opened fire on a tent full of sleeping soldiers in the early hours of the morning.

He killed two officers and injured 14 other personnel.

His family said he had been suffering religious and racial harassment from other soldiers, although no witnesses were provided at his trial. The prosecution described him as a "hate-filled, ideologically driven murderer".

Also in 2003, a Muslim chaplain at Guantanamo Bay, Captain James Yee, was accused of espionage and kept in solitary confinement for 76 days before all the charges were dropped.

He was given an honourable discharge - but not an apology - from the army a year later. The case outraged Muslim Americans who felt Captain Yee had been singled out because of his religion.

'Sad fact'


It is not clear exactly how many Muslims serve in the 1.4 million-strong US armed forces, as recruits are not required to state their religion.

We have a diverse armed forces, and whatever their religion our troops have a part to play, and they play it very well


Lt Col Nathan Banks
Army spokesman


According to the Pentagon, there are 3,572 Muslims in active service. However, some Muslims in the military say the real number is as high as 20,000.

The US government has made no secret of the fact that it would like to see more people from Arab and Muslim communities joining the armed forces.

More American Muslim troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan has long been seen as a vital part in helping the US in its missions to win hearts and minds in those countries.

"They are a great asset to the army," Lt Col Nathan Banks, army spokesman for the Pentagon, told the BBC.

"When they do deploy they help facilitate a lot of our missions. American Muslims in the army work hand in hand with local Muslims, and we welcome that."

He said the army did not foresee heightened tensions within its ranks as a result of Fort Hood.

"This was an isolated incident. Our hearts go out to everyone affected by this, but the army will stay strong. We have a diverse armed forces, and whatever their religion our troops have a part to play, and they play it very well."

But anti-Muslim sentiment is being felt as a result of the shooting. The Arab-American Institute - which condemned the massacre - said it had received at least one threatening phone call, and expected more.

One soldier at the Texas base admitted the coming days would be tough for his Muslim colleagues.

"They've taken it hard due to the fact that it kind of puts a negative light on them and makes people distrust them," he told the BBC.

"Because everybody is going to look at them [and think]: "Well, you're probably going to pull something like this. And it's a sad fact that that will happen".

Source
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GuestFellow
11-06-2009, 09:50 PM
I think he just lost it. Kinda bizarre that he is a psychiatrist. :hmm:
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Humbler_359
11-06-2009, 10:12 PM
:sl: Brother,

Oh not again another Conspiracy Theory in advance.

Sadly, my sympathy goes to Family and Friends of the fallen soldiers. :hmm:

There is more news coming another day after FortHood Shooting. Races still EXISTS in America, CNN seems too focus on this Jordanian guy alive due to his Muslim name, other two suspects didn't mention name yet?.

Suspect caught after shooting spree that killed 1 at Orlando engineering firm.
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Amadeus85
11-06-2009, 10:16 PM
That brings bad advertisement to multiculturalism in army.
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I<3Bush
11-06-2009, 10:24 PM
I guess we won't know his motives until he recovers but, there seems to be a couple allegations floating around. If this is about him going to the middle east, I would assume he, being in the military, would have thought about this as being a possibility in his future with them? I don't know, guess it would be hard to say without hearing it from him.
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bewildred
11-06-2009, 10:28 PM
Yes indeed. Very sad. Yet.......

There was so much emphasis on the Palestinian origins of the killer. I may be wrong but all these coincidences that are occuring before the Goldstone conclusions. I'm referring to the arms "found" by the Israeli military in the international seas....... But I'm straying now. Sorry.


S.
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The_Prince
11-07-2009, 12:10 AM
perhaps if america wasnt in iraq and afghanistan this wudnt happen.
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GuestFellow
11-07-2009, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Humbler_359
:sl: Brother,

Oh not again another Conspiracy Theory in advance.
:sl:

Oh no conspiracy theory. I just wouldn't expect a psychiatrist to start shooting people.... :hmm:


Sadly, my sympathy goes to Family and Friends of the fallen soldiers. :hmm:
Same here....
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Woodrow
11-07-2009, 12:51 AM
Odd, I know in the news reports I read yesterday they stated that Maj. Hasan had no religious preference. An today they say he is Muslim.

[URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/wtUSInvestingNews/idUSN0617181620091106"]http://www.reuters.com/article/wtUSInvestingNews/idUSN0617181620091106[/URL
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OurIslamic
11-07-2009, 12:59 AM
What has come to the world?! :(
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orchid II
11-07-2009, 05:20 AM
actually I had CNN on all day, was watching as it broke and it was reported quite early on that he was a follower of Islam, they spoke with one of his cousins who made the accusation that Major Hasan was discriminated against in the military for being muslim; so I have to disagree with your comment that it was not even mentioned yesterday but all of a sudden today..... P.S. I thought you lived in Texas not ND, have you moved????
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titus
11-07-2009, 06:23 AM
they spoke with one of his cousins who made the accusation that Major Hasan was discriminated against in the military for being muslim
Yes, I read a story that said he had his car keyed and bumper sticker vandalized by some idiot because he was Muslim. I don't remember exactly what the bumper sticker said, but it was something along the lines of "Allah is Love".

Uncomfirmed rumors say that he yelled out "Allahu Akbar!" before opening fire.
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Woodrow
11-07-2009, 06:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by orchid II
actually I had CNN on all day, was watching as it broke and it was reported quite early on that he was a follower of Islam, they spoke with one of his cousins who made the accusation that Major Hasan was discriminated against in the military for being muslim; so I have to disagree with your comment that it was not even mentioned yesterday but all of a sudden today..... P.S. I thought you lived in Texas not ND, have you moved????
The news I was watching on TV was coming out of Rapid City South Dakota. Seems it was a bit behind. I now started looking at Reuters and AP on line. Getting more up to date. haven't heard anything from my Daughter in Austin yet to see how it is impacting the local area there.
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Al Ansari
11-07-2009, 07:37 AM
I personally believe that a Muslim can not remain in the military. It is not a place for him or her to be. It is completely opposite of what our religion stands for.

Wa Allaahu a'lam
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Woodrow
11-07-2009, 08:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Ansari
I personally believe that a Muslim can not remain in the military. It is not a place for him or her to be. It is completely opposite of what our religion stands for.

Wa Allaahu a'lam
I have mixed feelings about that. While I agree with what you are saying I also think if the US military had a larger Muslim presence, especially in the Officer ranks, we probably never would have been in Iraq or Afghanistan.
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titus
11-07-2009, 01:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Ansari
I personally believe that a Muslim can not remain in the military. It is not a place for him or her to be. It is completely opposite of what our religion stands for.

Wa Allaahu a'lam
Any military? Or just the military of countries that are not majority Muslim?
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Humbler_359
11-07-2009, 05:01 PM
Muslims at Fort Voice Outrage



KILLEEN, Tex. — Leaders of the vibrant Muslim community here expressed outrage on Friday at the shooting rampage being laid to one of their members, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, who had become a regular attendee of prayers at the local mosque.

But some of the men who had befriended Major Hasan at the mosque said the military should examine the policies that might have caused him to snap.

“When a white guy shoots up a post office, they call that going postal
,” said Victor Benjamin II, 30, a former member of the Army. “But when a Muslim does it, they call it jihad.

“Ultimately it was Brother Nidal’s doing, but the command should be held accountable,” Mr. Benjamin said. “G.I.’s are like any equipment in the Army. When it breaks, those who were in charge of keeping it fit should be held responsible for it.”

The mosque, the Islamic Community of Greater Killeen, sits off Highway 195, near Fort Hood. Major Hasan began attending prayers about two months ago.

The mosque has about 75 families who have lived peacefully with their Christian neighbors.

“After 9/11, nothing happened here,” said Ajsaf Khan, who owns three convenience stores with his brother, Abdul Khan. “We are very cooperative.”

A mosque leader, Dr. Manzoor Farooqi, a pediatrician, when asked if he feared retribution for the shootings, said he hoped good relations would prevail.

Major Hasan was one of about 10 men from Fort Hood who attended prayers in their uniforms, Dr. Farooqi said, and he was shocked to see the major’s face on television identified as that of the gunman. “He is an educated man. A psychiatrist,” he said. “I can’t believe he would do such a stupid thing.”

“I have no words to explain what happened yesterday,” Dr. Farooqi said at Friday afternoon prayers, in which about 40 men were led by the mosque’s imam, Syed Ahmed Ali. “Let’s have a moment of silence to bless those who lost their life.”

“The Islamic community strongly condemns this cowardly attack, which was particularly heinous in that it was directed at the all-volunteer army that protects our nation,” Dr. Farooqi said.

Nihad Awad, the national executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said, “We reiterate the American Muslim community’s condemnation of this cowardly attack. Right now, we call on all Americans to assist those who are responding to this atrocity. We must ensure that the wounded are treated and the families of those who were murdered have an opportunity to mourn.”

Among those attending Friday prayers at the Killeen mosque was Sgt. Fahad Kamal, 26, an Army medic who wore his Airborne uniform, and later he said he was angered on several levels. “I want to believe it was the individual, and not the religion, that made him do what he did,” said Sergeant Kamal, who returned to the United States last year after a 15-month tour in Afghanistan. “It’s an awful thing. I feel let down. We’re better than this.”

It was Major Hasan, though, who increasingly felt let down by the military, and deeply conflicted by his religion, said those who knew him through the mosque. Duane Reasoner Jr., an 18-year-old substitute teacher whose parents worked at Fort Hood, said Major Hassan was told he would be sent to Afghanistan on Nov. 28, and he did not like it.

“He said he should quit the Army
,” Mr. Reasoner said. “In the Koran, you’re not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christian or others, and if you are killed in the military fighting against Muslims, you will go to hell.”

Mr. Benjamin, who worked as a private contractor in Iraq and Afghanistan after leaving the Army in 2000, said the military should have let Major Hassan resign. “They should take more consideration of the human beings in the uniform,” he said, “rather than simply say, ‘We invested our money in you and need to get our money’s worth.’ ”

Still, Mr. Benjamin added, Major Hassan had overlooked an important, and peaceable, tenet of Islam. “We do have the right to retaliate,” he said, “but he who does not is twice blessed.”

Source
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Supreme
11-07-2009, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Ansari
I personally believe that a Muslim can not remain in the military. It is not a place for him or her to be. It is completely opposite of what our religion stands for.

Wa Allaahu a'lam

Ah, a pacifist.:D Even though my views are essentially pacifist, I believe that people need guns to protect us from other, more evil people with guns. I, like you, believe religion has essentially been raped by war mongerers, when it stands for the complete opposite.
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GuestFellow
11-07-2009, 07:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Ansari
I personally believe that a Muslim can not remain in the military. It is not a place for him or her to be. It is completely opposite of what our religion stands for.

Wa Allaahu a'lam
:sl:

It does depend. I don't mind if Muslims and non-Muslims are going to war against a country that is dangerous. For example Nazi Germany was a big threat...

EDIT: lol stupid typo
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Uthman
11-07-2009, 08:10 PM
U.S. Army gunman's act "impossible" - grandfather
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Amadeus85
11-07-2009, 11:25 PM
The thing is that this shooting is a best accusation of multiculturalism at all, as the army is a smaller version of whole nation. On the other hand, we cant do anything about it in USA.
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Woodrow
11-08-2009, 12:07 AM
Just my opinion. From what I have read so far. I doubt if Maj. Hasan actually wanted to harm anybody. It is my belief he was extremely depressed and could not live nor could he commit suicide so the only option was to place himself in a situation where he would e killed by the police. "Suicide by Cop" is not anything new. But often the person will have unloaded or toy guns. But being on a military base and being military the concept of unloaded weapons probably never would have registered. Outside of that I doubt if he would have thought one man, in the open, in the middle of 50,000 soldiers and armed only with 2 handguns would be able to do much damage before being killed.

I do feel pain for those killed but my heart and Du'as also go out to Maj. Hasan, the pain and depression he suffered that drove him to this horrible act, is the monster, not Maj. Hasan.
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Karl
11-08-2009, 01:09 AM
Why are there Muslims in the U.S. army? As the U.S. army is a Zionist one and at war with Islam. The Muslims should be Mujahidûn not in an infidel army fighting Mujahidûn.
If I was an American leader I would not let Muslims into the COUNTRY let alone the army.
I thought they had a big enough problem with Mexicans! I would not even let in Hindus 'cos of cultural clash. As an American leader I would only let in white redneck Protestants and Jews to look after the finances. LOL
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GuestFellow
11-08-2009, 01:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Why are there Muslims in the U.S. army? As the U.S. army is a Zionist one and at war with Islam. The Muslims should be Mujahidûn not in an infidel army fighting Mujahidûn.
If I was an American leader I would not let Muslims into the COUNTRY let alone the army.
I thought they had a big enough problem with Mexicans! I would not even let in Hindus 'cos of cultural clash. As an American leader I would only let in white redneck Protestants and Jews to look after the finances. LOL
:sl:

Not sure if your being serious O_o

It is too simplistic to say America is with war with Islam otherwise America would have been fighting against ALL Muslim countries and destroying mosques etc.

The wars taking place now are due to economic reasons and need for resources...
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Woodrow
11-08-2009, 02:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Why are there Muslims in the U.S. army? As the U.S. army is a Zionist one and at war with Islam. The Muslims should be Mujahidûn not in an infidel army fighting Mujahidûn.
If I was an American leader I would not let Muslims into the COUNTRY let alone the army.
I thought they had a big enough problem with Mexicans! I would not even let in Hindus 'cos of cultural clash. As an American leader I would only let in white redneck Protestants and Jews to look after the finances. LOL
One thing you are overlooking. Us Americans are reverting to Islam probably faster than the people in any other nation. Outside of the East coast there are virtually no Jews in the USA. I do not believe there is a single Jew in the States of North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana or Alaska. America is only about 50% Non-Hispanic white. We also have some major cities such as Dearborn, Michigan that are now predominately Muslim. More Iranians now live in Las Angeles California than live in Tehran, Iran. There are more Muslims living in the USA than live in the 6 smallest Islamic nations combined.

Some Muslims do join the US military for the intent of protecting American Muslims.
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Uthman
11-08-2009, 07:17 AM
Hasan Called War on Terror an Attack on Islam, Classmate Says

Another attack leaves US Muslims fearing backlash

Muslim leader had troubling talks with suspect

Some fear backlash against Muslims in US military

US Muslims face backlash
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Woodrow
11-08-2009, 12:14 PM
That is sad to read. It does make it seem his act was long planned and perhaps even his reason for joining the Army.

However, I think most people will understand it was the act of an individual perhaps any backlash will be short term.
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Supreme
11-08-2009, 01:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Why are there Muslims in the U.S. army? As the U.S. army is a Zionist one and at war with Islam. The Muslims should be Mujahidûn not in an infidel army fighting Mujahidûn.
If I was an American leader I would not let Muslims into the COUNTRY let alone the army.
I thought they had a big enough problem with Mexicans! I would not even let in Hindus 'cos of cultural clash. As an American leader I would only let in white redneck Protestants and Jews to look after the finances. LOL
Then it is a Godsend you are not in any position of power. The Iraq war, despite being inherently evil and unjust, was more to do with America's greed for oil more than anything else.


One thing you are overlooking. Us Americans are reverting to Islam probably faster than the people in any other nation. Outside of the East coast there are virtually no Jews in the USA. I do not believe there is a single Jew in the States of North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana or Alaska. America is only about 50% Non-Hispanic white. We also have some major cities such as Dearborn, Michigan that are now predominately Muslim. More Iranians now live in Las Angeles California than live in Tehran, Iran. There are more Muslims living in the USA than live in the 6 smallest Islamic nations combined.
Isn't it amazing how religion is growing in the world's most developed country? It's essentially two fingers to all the atheists who believe religion has no place in society.
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amalteser
11-08-2009, 05:35 PM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=120162816

News > U.S. > Around the Nation

Officials Begin Putting Shooting Pieces Together
Tom Gjelten, Daniel Zwerdling and Steve Inskeep

November 6, 2009

Listen to the Story
Morning Edition
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November 6, 2009
As doctors attend to the wounded and funeral plans are made for the deceased, military officials at Fort Hood, Texas, are piecing together why the alleged gunman shot and killed 13 people and wounded 30 others. Among the things they are looking into: Whether Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan was disturbed by his deployment orders to go to Iraq.
STEVE INSKEEP, host:

So, authorities have answered one question: They believe it was a single gunman. But in a way, that only deepens the mystery about Major Nidal Hasan. We've been learning more about him this morning, first from NPR's Tom Gjelten, who's covering this story.

Tom, good morning.

TOM GJELTEN: Good morning, Steve.

INSKEEP: Who is he?

GJELTEN: Nidal Hasan was born here in the Washington, D.C. area in Arlington. His parents were Palestinian immigrants, it seems. He went to local schools, graduating from Virginia Tech, joined the Army. He spent basically his whole adult life in the Army. That's where he received his medical education. He was trained as a psychiatrist by the Army and served for several years at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, ironically specializing in the treatment of combat stress. He was then transferred to Fort Hood earlier this year. He was due to be deployed, apparently to Afghanistan. We've heard from various sources that that bothered him, for whatever reason. We know he was a devout Muslim, took his faith very seriously. We can't say, of course, that that was relevant, here.

INSKEEP: OK, so due to be deployed, and you also mentioned that he spent a lot of time at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center. I want another - bring another voice into the conversation, here. NPR's Daniel Zwerdling has covered posttraumatic stress disorder over the years and has also spent a lot of time with people at Walter Reed.

And Daniel, good morning to you.

DANIEL ZWERDLING: Good morning, Steve.

INSKEEP: I understanding you've spoken with someone who knew him, worked with him at Walter Reed.

ZWERDLING: Earlier today, I spoke to a psychiatrist who worked very closely with Hasan and knows him very well. And he said, you know, from the beginning -and Hasan was there for four years - the medical staff was very worried about this guy. He said the first thing is he's cold, unfriendly. At least that's who he came off. He did not do a good job as a psychiatrist in training, was repeatedly warned, you better shape up, or, you know, you're going to be in trouble. Did badly in his classes, seemed disinterested. But second of all - and this is, perhaps, you know, more relevant. The psychiatrist says that he was very proud and upfront about being Muslim. And psychiatrist hastened to say, and nobody minded that. But he seemed almost belligerent about being Muslim, and he gave a lecture one day that really freaked a lot of doctors out.

They have grand rounds, right? They, you know, dozens of medical staff come into an auditorium, and somebody stands at the podium at the front and gives a lecture about some academic issue, you know, what drugs to prescribe for what condition. But instead of that, he - Hasan apparently gave a long lecture on the Koran and talked about how if you don't believe, you are condemned to hell. Your head is cut off. You're set on fire. Burning oil is burned down your throat.

And I said to the psychiatrist, but this cold be a very interesting informational session, right? Where he's educating everybody about the Koran. He said but what disturbed everybody was that Hasan seemed to believe these things. And actually, a Muslim in the audience, a psychiatrist, raised his hand and said, excuse me. But I'm a Muslim and I do not believe these things in the Koran, and then I don't believe what you say the Koran says. And then Hasan didn't say, well, I'm just giving you one point of view. He basically just stared the guy down.

INSKEEP: So we have a picture of a man, then, who, at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, was disliked by his colleagues. Or maybe disliked is not the word. Disturbed some of his colleagues is perhaps a better way to put it.

ZWERDLING: No, and disliked is also a relevant word.

INSKEEP: OK. And then�

ZWERDLING: Then he - the psychiatrist this morning said people generally considered him a blank bag. You, you know, can guess what they say.

INSKEEP: And then he is sent to Fort Hood, Texas, and he knows at the point that this shooting allegedly begins, that the shooting begins of which he is accused, that he's about to be deployed by Afghanistan. Now, Tom, you've been looking into some of the stresses of military personnel of being sent overseas.

GJELTEN: That's right, Steve. You know, you referred to the Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. There's - almost seems to be a phenomenon that you could maybe call a pre-traumatic stress disorder. There have been a lot suicides in the Army, many more as a result of these wars than in previous years. Interestingly enough, as many soldiers have killed themselves before they were due to be deployed as after. Thirty-five percent of the suicides are pre-deployment, 35 percent are post-deployment. So there seems to be an issue here of expectation of what you are getting into. And the fact that Major Hasan would've known better than others, even, about how traumatic combat experience would be, you know, raises the question of, you know, was he an example of these soldiers who are literally freaked out by what they are likely to face when they are deployed?

INSKEEP: And it's hard to miss the location of this shooting: a processing center for people being sent overseas. Daniel Zwerdling.

ZWERDLING: I want to add something else about Hasan at Walter Reed. The psychiatrist I talked to today said that he was the kind of guy who the staff actually stood around in the hallway, saying: Do you think he's a terrorist, or is he just weird? And now, apparently, Walter Reed is in a lockdown mode where they've been instructed - all the staff has been instructed: Do not talk to anybody about this investigation, except military people. Do not talk to the FBI, because they're afraid, potentially, what if people decide investigating this that people missed potential warning signs about the guy? You know, this is speculation still, but�

INSKEEP: How can they not talk to the FBI?

ZWERDLING: Well, our colleague Dina Temple-Raston has heard that from the FBI, and this military officer is telling me the same thing from Walter Reed.

INSKEEP: OK. Gentlemen, thanks very much. NPR's Daniel Zwerdling and Tom Gjelten. Thanks to you both.

GJELTEN: Thank you, Steve.

ZWERDLING: Thank you.

INSKEEP: And we do want to mention: This is a moment in our coverage which can be distressing for some listeners because we hear so much about the suspect and so little about the victims. That is a factor of what we know now. The military is saying very little about the victims so far, expect that there are 13 dead, 12 military, one civilian. But it is very early, and we expect to learn more and bring you more in the coming hours and days.

It's MORNING EDITION from NPR News.
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Woodrow
11-08-2009, 06:25 PM
After reading that, it sounds like everybody saw him as a walking time bomb. Why the Hannah did they not grant his request for a discharge. He sure seemed like an ideal candidate for a medical discharge under section 8.
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cat eyes
11-08-2009, 06:41 PM
i believe he was getting bullied and he did it out of self defence and revenge do you think that being in the army is easy so much bullying goes on like look at that vid on youtube of prince harry calling a asian british soldier a paki the whole asian community of England were absolutely disgusted how there prince could behave in this way. i am telling you there so much crap they have to put up with aswell as fighting against the enemy
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Supreme
11-08-2009, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
i believe he was getting bullied and he did it out of self defence and revenge do you think that being in the army is easy so much bullying goes on like look at that vid on youtube of prince harry calling a asian british soldier a paki the whole asian community of England were absolutely disgusted how there prince could behave in this way. i am telling you there so much crap they have to put up with aswell as fighting against the enemy

Self defense? Killing 13 people with handguns isn't self defense, it's cold blooded murder.

It's clear that the individual in this case was clearly distressed. However, he appears to be in the nutjob minority of the human race- instead of dealing with his bullying and his problems, he decided to take it out on other people by casually shooting and killing thirteen.


May the victims rest in peace. I shall pray for them.
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Karl
11-08-2009, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Then it is a Godsend you are not in any position of power. The Iraq war, despite being inherently evil and unjust, was more to do with America's greed for oil more than anything else.


America and Britain have always been societies built on plunder and imperialism. That's why the world has always been in a state of despair and misery. But what I think is going on now in regards to the Iraq invasion is not primarily about plunder. They have just sacrificed far more than what the return was WORTH. I also disagree that the US and UK are not involved in a Zionist war. They quite clearly are. However, this is not the only factor at play either. If it was, then countries such as North Korea would not be incessantly bullied as well, so I do agree that the USA's war against Islam is not the ONLY motivation.

More precisely it's to do with destroying all other cultures and propagating the "American way" right throughout the planet and inculcating Anglo-American ideas and values. Yes, the invasion of Iraq would have been PARTLY to do with plunder, but that motive was only peripheral. The MAIN directive in the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan is the USA's and UK's strategic positioning towards the ultimate invasion of Russia and China. Their aim is for the New World Order to become a reality. So it's big picture stuff. That's why they were trying so hard to get into Poland and Czechoslovakia with their missile bases (while using "Iran" as a completely pitiful excuse for the motivation). One can easily see a clear pattern with the invasion, occupation and manipulation of Asian and Eastern European countries closely bordering Russia. I admit that the USA's war on Islam is not the ONLY motive. There are several motives, but mere plunder for its own sake is not really worth all the trouble. It's when every single motive is added together that has made it seem worth it to them to invade Iraq. Unbeknownst to them though, they are clearly set to fail if they think they can ever be victorious against Russia. The day they attack Russia and China will really be the day that the USA's and UK's delusions of grandeur are finally realised!
Reply

cat eyes
11-09-2009, 12:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Self defense? Killing 13 people with handguns isn't self defense, it's cold blooded murder.

It's clear that the individual in this case was clearly distressed. However, he appears to be in the nutjob minority of the human race- instead of dealing with his bullying and his problems, he decided to take it out on other people by casually shooting and killing thirteen.


May the victims rest in peace. I shall pray for them.
okay maybe not out of self defense lol anyway its hard to know what really happened i would not believe that story fully
Reply

Chuck
11-09-2009, 12:44 AM
I don't think they can attack Russia or China. But they might start another cold war.
Reply

Chuck
11-09-2009, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
okay maybe not out of self defense lol anyway its hard to know what really happened i would not believe that story fully
As Br. Woodrow said, he was a walking time bomb and he should have been discharged. Anyone (or group of people) not discharging him are either stupid or they had another motive in their mind.
Reply

Qingu
11-09-2009, 01:38 AM
When this story first broke, I remember thinking, "I really, really, really hope the shooter wasn't a Muslim."

I think it is clear that, for whatever reason, Hasan was motivated by a Salafi-style ideology. Reports say he shouted "Allahu ackbar" as he shot everyone. I think it's safe to say that he saw his act as a form of jihad.

Obviously there were other factors. I've read reports that he's gotten more and more extreme in his religious beliefs. And he has been discriminated against and been subject to abuse for those beliefs before—which probably further radicalized him. But it's not hard to see how someone with Salafi-style ideology would see the soldiers Hasan killed as part of the "other side." They were, after all, being deployed to places where they would probably end up killing Muslims.

All in all, though, I'm hopeful in the way that America and the Muslim community has responded to this. The army chief of staff is warning everyone not to judge all Muslims or Muslim soldiers by this guy's actions, and even Republican senators are saying that his actions don't reflect on Islam as a whole:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/us...9casey.html?hp

(The exception, unfortunately, is Joe Lieberman, one of the biggest scumbags in the U.S...)

Reading this thread, and your guys' response, also makes me pretty hopeful. Let's hope everyone keeps a cool head.
Reply

Ramadhan
11-09-2009, 04:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
When this story first broke, I remember thinking, "I really, really, really hope the shooter wasn't a Muslim."

I think it is clear that, for whatever reason, Hasan was motivated by a Salafi-style ideology. Reports say he shouted "Allahu ackbar" as he shot everyone. I think it's safe to say that he saw his act as a form of jihad.

Obviously there were other factors. I've read reports that he's gotten more and more extreme in his religious beliefs. And he has been discriminated against and been subject to abuse for those beliefs before—which probably further radicalized him. But it's not hard to see how someone with Salafi-style ideology would see the soldiers Hasan killed as part of the "other side." They were, after all, being deployed to places where they would probably end up killing Muslims.
.

I did not know Hassan follows "salafi-style" ideology.
and what is "salafi-style" ideology?
and how did you know Hasan saw his act as a form of jihad?
Where did you get all these information from?
Reply

Woodrow
11-09-2009, 04:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
As Br. Woodrow said, he was a walking time bomb and he should have been discharged. Anyone (or group of people) not discharging him are either stupid or they had another motive in their mind.
Possibly another motive on their minds. But, maybe not as sinister as it looks like. Since he was a commissioned officer with over 10 years service time he would have received full salary and benefits if given a medical discharge. I suspect too many commanders are budget conscious and none were willing to stick out their neck for him to receive that. An O-4(Major) rank is more then a few dollars a month. His medical retirement salary would be $6,025 per month with annual increases for life.
Reply

Supreme
11-09-2009, 04:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
America and Britain have always been societies built on plunder and imperialism. That's why the world has always been in a state of despair and misery. But what I think is going on now in regards to the Iraq invasion is not primarily about plunder. They have just sacrificed far more than what the return was WORTH. I also disagree that the US and UK are not involved in a Zionist war. They quite clearly are. However, this is not the only factor at play either. If it was, then countries such as North Korea would not be incessantly bullied as well, so I do agree that the USA's war against Islam is not the ONLY motivation.

More precisely it's to do with destroying all other cultures and propagating the "American way" right throughout the planet and inculcating Anglo-American ideas and values. Yes, the invasion of Iraq would have been PARTLY to do with plunder, but that motive was only peripheral. The MAIN directive in the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan is the USA's and UK's strategic positioning towards the ultimate invasion of Russia and China. Their aim is for the New World Order to become a reality. So it's big picture stuff. That's why they were trying so hard to get into Poland and Czechoslovakia with their missile bases (while using "Iran" as a completely pitiful excuse for the motivation). One can easily see a clear pattern with the invasion, occupation and manipulation of Asian and Eastern European countries closely bordering Russia. I admit that the USA's war on Islam is not the ONLY motive. There are several motives, but mere plunder for its own sake is not really worth all the trouble. It's when every single motive is added together that has made it seem worth it to them to invade Iraq. Unbeknownst to them though, they are clearly set to fail if they think they can ever be victorious against Russia. The day they attack Russia and China will really be the day that the USA's and UK's delusions of grandeur are finally realised!

Oh, however did you work out our evil plans to conquer the world?

In all seriousness though, I don't think the presumed 'war on Islam' is the West's only reason for a zionist stance. You have to consider economic reasons (Israel is an economically viable trading partner), history (the West has always felt bad for its anti semitism) and now the fact Israel is a nuclear power, with the best pieces of military hardware in the world, it seems in the best interests of the West to maintain its friendly relationship with Israel. Oh, and there's also the small fact that the Christian dominated West, when creating Israel, had to push out the Palestinians, who at the time were 30% Christian. So the war against Islam wasn't exclusively against Muslims.

Also, wouldn't attacking Russia and China be bad for countries with a war against Islam? Besides, Russia is practically carrying out genocide against Muslims in Chechnya just as bad as the Israelis are in the Middle East, and China is overtly Islamophobic. The State control of Islam and the riots against the predominantly Uighurs this year proves it.

Russia and China are always protrayed to be the best of allies in their opposition to the West, although the two don't always get along very well.
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Humbler_359
11-09-2009, 05:09 PM
^ Assalamu Alaikum brother Supreme, for just curiousity, I find your signature regarding Heaven where Gardens beneath which rivers flow :D, are you telling us Islam is the truth despite you Christian?

:wa:
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Supreme
11-09-2009, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Humbler_359
^ Assalamu Alaikum brother Supreme, for just curiousity, I find your signature regarding Heaven where Gardens beneath which rivers flow :D, are you telling us Islam is the truth despite you Christian?

:wa:
Peace;

Even though I am a Christian, I feel that verse is completely compatible with my Christian beliefs. For in Christianity, we too believe that the believers will be admitted to Heaven by God. I would've liked to have posted the whole two verses, but this forum has some annoying rules that prevent signatures from being over 300 words. You don't have to be a Muslim to appreciate the beauty and truth found in the Quran.
Reply

titus
11-09-2009, 09:15 PM
and how did you know Hasan saw his act as a form of jihad?
From the snippets of information we have about things that he has written, said and done. He has started talking so maybe we will be able to know for sure one way or another here soon, but all the evidence we have now surely seems to point to that conclusion.
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Chuck
11-09-2009, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
From the snippets of information we have about things that he has written, said and done. He has started talking so maybe we will be able to know for sure one way or another here soon, but all the evidence we have now surely seems to point to that conclusion.
what evidence?
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MartyrX
11-10-2009, 02:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
what evidence?
I believe the poster is referencing the eyewitness reports of him yelling out "Allah Akbar" before he started shooting. I don't know if I believe what is being reported as these eyewitnesses could have been coached into saying these things, but I don't know.
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Rabi Mansur
11-10-2009, 03:45 AM
Fox News was reporting that he had attempted to make contact with Al Qaeda. If that is true, it sure makes me wonder why they didn't boot him out of the military a long time ago. Is it possible they knew this and were planning on using him as a decoy at some point?

Lots of unanswered questions.

:confused:
Reply

titus
11-10-2009, 07:05 AM
what evidence?
People that knew him have said he constantly claimed that the US was at war against Islam, that he was in contact with an Imam that glorifies acts such as this (who has since publically called him a hero), and that he posted on message boards arguing in support of suicide bombings.
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amalteser
11-10-2009, 10:07 AM
I find the muslim 'denial' and 'conspiracy theory' defence for these murders very enlightening!!!
Why not face the ugly truth!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs&
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Chuck
11-10-2009, 10:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
People that knew him have said he constantly claimed that the US was at war against Islam, that he was in contact with an Imam that glorifies acts such as this (who has since publically called him a hero), and that he posted on message boards arguing in support of suicide bombings.
And that makes him salafi how exactly?
Reply

Uthman
11-10-2009, 12:41 PM
This has certainly had a lot of coverage. Here are some more articles:

Some saw trouble ahead with Hasan

Obama acts as anti-Muslim anger threatens to engulf US

Homeland chief warns against anti-Muslim backlash

Muslim students share thoughts on Fort Hood shooting

Muslims in Boston condemn killer’s ‘pure criminal act’

Army chief fears backlash for Muslim U.S. soldiers

‘Our cousin was not a terrorist ...’

Fort Hood and the new McCarthyism

Complications Grow for Muslims Serving in U.S. Military

Army Gains with Muslim Soldiers May Be Lost

Islamic leader condemns Fort Hood violence

Officials investigate Fort Hood suspect's possible ties to Muslim preacher (Not sure what to make of this one - It talks about Imaam Anwar Awlaki)

In Light of Ft. Hood Shootings: Growing Religious Influence in the Military & PTSD

The Tragedy of Nidal Hasan’s Fort Hood Shootings: Media Discipline & Muslim Condemnations
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Woodrow
11-10-2009, 01:09 PM
Tomorrow I will be able to tell you there is any noticeable Backlash in North Dakota and South Dakota. I don't expect to find any. Aabidah has a doctor's appointment at Fort Mead,today we will be leaving for it shortly, 6 hour drive one way. We will be wearing Sunnah clothing as we always do.

After the Fort Mead Appointment we will be going into Rapid City for grocery shopping. Rapid City is one of the largest Cities in South Dakota and is a Tourist Area because of Mt Rushmore. This time of year there will be many tourists who come to South Dakota to visit Rushmore, Hunting and Fishing. Quite a few Hunters will be in the area as it is now Deer, Elk, Turkey and Buffalo season. We will be passing through 3 Reservations, Pine Oglala Sioux Reservation, Cheyenne River Lakota Sioux Reservation and the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe (famous as being the last home of the Great Hunkapaka Sioux Chief and Warrior Tatanka-Iyotanka (called Sitting Bull by the white men) We definetly won't have any problems on the Rez's as they are Quite pro Muslim although only a few have reverted to Islam.

We don't anticipate any problems anyplace as the people here are very tolerant to others.
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I<3Bush
11-10-2009, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
And that makes him salafi how exactly?
Unfortunately, whenever something negative pops up in the media about Islam, it is always like talking to a brick wall when it comes to explaining stuff like suicide bombings, terrorist attacks, etc. as being against our beliefs. The funny thing about it is, people always say that Muslims don't do enough to condemn such acts yet, all the Muslims who go on t.v to do so seem to be overlooked.. Go figure. I think regardless, people will always believe what they want to no matter what.
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Woodrow
11-10-2009, 01:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by I<3Bush
Unfortunately, whenever something negative pops up in the media about Islam, it is always like talking to a brick wall when it comes to explaining stuff like suicide bombings, terrorist attacks, etc. as being against our beliefs. The funny thing about it is, people always say that Muslims don't do enough to condemn such acts yet, all the Muslims who go on t.v to do so seem to be overlooked.. Go figure. I think regardless, people will always believe what they want to no matter what.
True. Sadly the news media thrives on drama. Peaceful dialogue and anti-terrorist protesting doesn't sell papers or air time blood and gore does. The Government here has no say over the media, sales and profit does.
Reply

noorseeker
11-10-2009, 01:40 PM
But hasnt imam Anwar al Awlaqi called him a hero for what his done.
Reply

aamirsaab
11-10-2009, 01:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amalteser
I find the muslim 'denial' and 'conspiracy theory' defence for these murders very enlightening!!!
Why not face the ugly truth!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs&
Enough with the sweeping statements already! I'm a muslim; I haven't denied this event or called it a conspiracy theory of any sort - so I don't appreciate you hitting me with that blanket statement one bit.

FYI I'm actually still in shock at it because it's an incredibly terrible crime. Hopefully, the guy in question will get his legal punishment and justice will be done.

Secondly; how do you think I as a muslim who spends a lot of his time BUILDING bridges with non-muslims feels about this? It's extremely painful because: not only will I inevitably have to explain that this guy's actions are wrong islamically to probably countless amounts of people, I also have to work twice as harder than prior to this event to make people think hey muslims aren't all bad and this event was just a freak occurence (you try working twice as hard than mr joe average, then double that workload a day after because some prat screwed up!) - and I have to do this EVERY time some moron gets in the papers for doing something retarded like this.

I also feel great guilt and shame in this because innocent people died at the hands of a muslim --> a person who claimed to have been following the same path as me.

You don't realise how demoralising events like this are; I'm dealing with crap from muslims (like this chap) and crap from non-muslims (who think muslims like this chap are the norm). I have more than enough sh*t to deal with already - I don't need you hitting me with sweeping statements as well.
Reply

GuestFellow
11-10-2009, 01:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amalteser
I find the muslim 'denial' and 'conspiracy theory' defence for these murders very enlightening!!!
Why not face the ugly truth!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs&
What has that got to do with the topic? Yes the demonstrations were stupid and I acknowledge that. No one called this event a conspiracy. Plus I was freaked out myself when I saw those demonstrations :skeleton:

Now have you got anything useful to add to the topic? Or are you going to post another youtube video and go bwaaah all over us lol.
Reply

amalteser
11-10-2009, 01:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Enough with the sweeping statements already! I'm a muslim; I haven't denied this event or called it a conspiracy theory of any sort - so I don't appreciate you hitting me with that blanket statement one bit.

FYI I'm actually still in shock at it because it's an incredibly terrible crime. Hopefully, the guy in question will get his legal punishment and justice will be done.

Secondly; how do you think I as a muslim who spends a lot of his time BUILDING bridges with non-muslims feels about this? It's extremely painful because: not only will I inevitably have to explain that this guy's actions are wrong islamically to probably countless amounts of people, I also have to work twice as harder than prior to this event to make people think hey muslims aren't all bad and this event was just a freak occurence (you try working twice as hard than mr joe average, then double that workload a day after because some prat screwed up!) - and I have to do this EVERY time some moron gets in the papers for doing something retarded like this. I also feel great guilt and shame in this because innocent people died at the hands of a muslim - a person who claimed to have been following the same path as me.

You don't realise how demoralising events like this are; I'm dealing with crap from muslims (like this chap) and crap from non-muslims (who think muslims like this chap are the norm). I have more than enough sh*t to deal with already - I don't need you hitting me with sweeping statements as well.
Calm down now!!!

If you look at all the posts so far, you will see that I am addressing those points made by some about 'denial' and 'conspiracy theory'!!!
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GuestFellow
11-10-2009, 02:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
Fox News was reporting that he had attempted to make contact with Al Qaeda. If that is true, it sure makes me wonder why they didn't boot him out of the military a long time ago. Is it possible they knew this and were planning on using him as a decoy at some point?

Lots of unanswered questions.

:confused:
Forget Fox news. They're useless and provide drama.
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amalteser
11-10-2009, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
What has that got to do with the topic? Yes the demonstrations were stupid and I acknowledge that. No one called this event a conspiracy. Plus I was freaked out myself when I saw those demonstrations :skeleton:

Now have you got anything useful to add to the topic? Or are you going to post another youtube video and go bwaaah all over us lol.
Your reply shows typical misunderstanding, or may be not!!!

My point was, that there is a very significant amount of muslims(those who claim to be muslim,) who are terribly violent and who have a stand point of taking over the world for allah!!!
And that there is particular type of jihad which takes many forms and guises to achieve that end!!!
Now unless you live in a fantasy world, you must be aware of it!!!
And the youtube clip that I posted, shows one aspect of this!!!

What do you have to say about the muslims at that demonstration, how they behaved, what they chanted, what their banners said???

See what's happening in the Middle East!!!


MEMRI TV

http://www.memritv.org/
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cat eyes
11-10-2009, 02:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JeffX
I believe the poster is referencing the eyewitness reports of him yelling out "Allah Akbar" before he started shooting. I don't know if I believe what is being reported as these eyewitnesses could have been coached into saying these things, but I don't know.
thats why i don't believe the full story we know what americans are like, absolute drama queens:rollseyes
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GuestFellow
11-10-2009, 04:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amalteser
Your reply shows typical misunderstanding, or may be not!!!
Right.

My point was, that there is a very significant amount of muslims(those who claim to be muslim,) who are terribly violent and who have a stand point of taking over the world for allah!!!
Yes I know. But there are other countries that are violent too and spread democracy through bloodshed and fear. :/

And that there is particular type of jihad which takes many forms and guises to achieve that end!!!
Now unless you live in a fantasy world, you must be aware of it!!!
And the youtube clip that I posted, shows one aspect of this!!!
Okay...

What do you have to say about the muslims at that demonstration, how they behaved, what they chanted, what their banners said???
See what's happening in the Middle East!!!
A lot of things are happening in the Middle East. If Western countries would leave other countries alone then maybe we would stop seeing a rise with these crazy organisations. Western countries have created these problems and these problems are coming back to haunt them.

Unless if you start tackling these problems impartially, then these problems shall spiral out of control.
Reply

titus
11-10-2009, 04:45 PM
And that makes him salafi how exactly?
I never said he was salafi. I was making a direct reply to someone who made a comment about whether or not this man saw this act as an act of jihad. In other words, did he do this for religious reasons.

thats why i don't believe the full story we know what americans are like, absolute drama queens
The poster you are replying to obviously did not read my posts. That was not the reason I had for thinking the man did this for religious reasons.

I don't know if I believe what is being reported as these eyewitnesses could have been coached into saying these things, but I don't know.
Are you claiming that as the shootings were ending that "someone" started telling the soldiers to tell the press that the man shouted that, and that these soldiers just simply agreed to it, no questions asked? Are you serious?
Reply

MSalman
11-10-2009, 05:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
When this story first broke, I remember thinking, "I really, really, really hope the shooter wasn't a Muslim."

I think it is clear that, for whatever reason, Hasan was motivated by a Salafi-style ideology. Reports say he shouted "Allahu ackbar" as he shot everyone. I think it's safe to say that he saw his act as a form of jihad.

Obviously there were other factors. I've read reports that he's gotten more and more extreme in his religious beliefs. And he has been discriminated against and been subject to abuse for those beliefs before—which probably further radicalized him. But it's not hard to see how someone with Salafi-style ideology would see the soldiers Hasan killed as part of the "other side." They were, after all, being deployed to places where they would probably end up killing Muslims.

All in all, though, I'm hopeful in the way that America and the Muslim community has responded to this. The army chief of staff is warning everyone not to judge all Muslims or Muslim soldiers by this guy's actions, and even Republican senators are saying that his actions don't reflect on Islam as a whole:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/us...9casey.html?hp

(The exception, unfortunately, is Joe Lieberman, one of the biggest scumbags in the U.S...)

Reading this thread, and your guys' response, also makes me pretty hopeful. Let's hope everyone keeps a cool head.
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
People that knew him have said he constantly claimed that the US was at war against Islam, that he was in contact with an Imam that glorifies acts such as this (who has since publically called him a hero), and that he posted on message boards arguing in support of suicide bombings.
please do not display your ignorance and show some objectivity and fairness
Reply

amalteser
11-10-2009, 06:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Right.



Yes I know. But there are other countries that are violent too and spread democracy through bloodshed and fear. :/



Okay...



A lot of things are happening in the Middle East. If Western countries would leave other countries alone then maybe we would stop seeing a rise with these crazy organisations. Western countries have created these problems and these problems are coming back to haunt them.

Unless if you start tackling these problems impartially, then these problems shall spiral out of control.
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World

Link Removed
Reply

GuestFellow
11-10-2009, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amalteser
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World

Link Removed
A youtube video and now this? :/

Do you know how biased that website is...

I have no idea what you are trying to achieve.
Reply

titus
11-10-2009, 07:19 PM
please do not display your ignorance and show some objectivity and fairness
My ignorance and lack of objectivity?

Help me, Islamiclife. Tell me how to think. What exactly about my post is ignorant and not objective?
Reply

MSalman
11-10-2009, 08:12 PM
^answer the following questions which were in response to your post and maybe it will help your realize your blunder in broad day light.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I did not know Hassan follows "salafi-style" ideology.
and what is "salafi-style" ideology?
and how did you know Hasan saw his act as a form of jihad?
Where did you get all these information from?
Reply

The_Prince
11-10-2009, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amalteser
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World
Removed Link
nice link, but sadly for fundie christians like you, the link doesnt help you. the majority of attacks that are listed arent even references, where are the actual links and second hand sources of those attacks?

furthermore, many of the attacks that are listed are not even terror attacks, attacks against troops or government forces in an insurgency and WAR is not terrorism, its called WAR.

so go get your facts straight before you want to post a stupid link, but then again facts and christians like you dont go in the same sentence, you just make things up as you go along.
Reply

titus
11-10-2009, 08:39 PM
answer the following questions which were in response to your post and maybe it will help your realize your blunder in broad day light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naidamar View Post
I did not know Hassan follows "salafi-style" ideology.
and what is "salafi-style" ideology?
and how did you know Hasan saw his act as a form of jihad?
Where did you get all these information from?
Look back over the posts. I have never posted anything about "salafi-style" anything. I was simply answering the question about the possibility that he thought he was committing an act of jihad.

Or is there some other "blunder" you believe that I have made?
Reply

Muezzin
11-10-2009, 09:49 PM
It would be better if members stuck to discussing the tragic event at hand, as opposed to posting links to Anti-Islamic websites.
Reply

Rabi Mansur
11-11-2009, 12:16 AM
:sl:

Here is a statement from CAIR. They were outfront in condemning what happened. This statement was actually quoted by Fox News (I'm usually not a fan of Fox but I was glad to see them publish the statement).


In a statement, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said:

“We condemn this cowardly attack in the strongest terms possible and ask that the perpetrators be punished to the full extent of the law. No religious or political ideology could ever justify or excuse such wanton and indiscriminate violence. The attack was particularly heinous in that it targeted the all-volunteer army that protects our nation. American Muslims stand with our fellow citizens in offering both prayers for the victims and sincere condolences to the families of those killed or injured.”
Reply

MartyrX
11-11-2009, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I never said he was salafi. I was making a direct reply to someone who made a comment about whether or not this man saw this act as an act of jihad. In other words, did he do this for religious reasons.



The poster you are replying to obviously did not read my posts. That was not the reason I had for thinking the man did this for religious reasons.



Are you claiming that as the shootings were ending that "someone" started telling the soldiers to tell the press that the man shouted that, and that these soldiers just simply agreed to it, no questions asked? Are you serious?
These people could have very well been coached to say these things. Maybe he did, but with our war on terror I could definitely see somone saying maybe you should say this to those military men that come out and said they heard him yell it.
Reply

titus
11-11-2009, 01:56 AM
So you think that the government is telling soldiers to lie to investigators and the public and their families in order to make people hate Muslims to help the war on terror?

Truly?
Reply

Uthman
11-11-2009, 02:15 PM
Finding the truth at Fort Hood

Fort Hood aftermath turns political
Reply

Uthman
11-11-2009, 06:52 PM
US imam wanted in Yemen over al-Qaida suspicions

This article is about Imaam Anwar al-Awlaki. :nervous:
Reply

MSalman
11-11-2009, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Look back over the posts. I have never posted anything about "salafi-style" anything. I was simply answering the question about the possibility that he thought he was committing an act of jihad.

Or is there some other "blunder" you believe that I have made?
sorry, I misunderstood for someone else
Reply

amalteser
11-13-2009, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
US imam wanted in Yemen over al-Qaida suspicions

This article is about Imaam Anwar al-Awlaki. :nervous:
So what is your opinion of this article???
Reply

amalteser
11-13-2009, 04:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Right.



Yes I know. But there are other countries that are violent too and spread democracy through bloodshed and fear. :/



Okay...



A lot of things are happening in the Middle East. If Western countries would leave other countries alone then maybe we would stop seeing a rise with these crazy organisations. Western countries have created these problems and these problems are coming back to haunt them.

Unless if you start tackling these problems impartially, then these problems shall spiral out of control.
So islam and muslims resort to this sort of behaviour, instead of something far better!!!
Reply

GuestFellow
11-13-2009, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amalteser
So islam and muslims resort to this sort of behaviour, instead of something far better!!!
No genius. There are about a billion Muslims around the world and only a small minority of Muslims resort to violence. The real terrorists are Western countries, starting wars based on lies, torturing suspects, killing thousands of innocent civilians, spreading propaganda and worst justifying their actions.

Pick up a History book and read. You'll probably learn something instead of wasting your time, prowling around the internet posting youtube videos and bombarding members with random websites on this forum. :hiding:

Oh Islam makes it clear you cannot kill innocent civilians. Just because some Muslims resort to this level of violence it does not mean Islam commands it.
Reply

Supreme
11-13-2009, 05:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
No genius. There are about a billion Muslims around the world and only a small minority of Muslims resort to violence. The real terrorists are Western countries, starting wars based on lies, torturing suspects, killing thousands of innocent civilians, spreading propaganda and worst justifying their actions.

Pick up a History book and read. You'll probably learn something instead of wasting your time, prowling around the internet posting youtube videos and bombarding members with random websites on this forum. :hiding:

Oh Islam makes it clear you cannot kill innocent civilians. Just because some Muslims resort to this level of violence it does not mean Islam commands it.

I concur. (12characters)
Reply

amalteser
11-13-2009, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
No genius. There are about a billion Muslims around the world and only a small minority of Muslims resort to violence. The real terrorists are Western countries, starting wars based on lies, torturing suspects, killing thousands of innocent civilians, spreading propaganda and worst justifying their actions.

Pick up a History book and read. You'll probably learn something instead of wasting your time, prowling around the internet posting youtube videos and bombarding members with random websites on this forum. :hiding:

Oh Islam makes it clear you cannot kill innocent civilians. Just because some Muslims resort to this level of violence it does not mean Islam commands it.
There is concerted effort by islamists to spread propaganda, with the aim of ultimately taking over the world for allah!!!

And as well as those muslims engaged in violence, there are many more in silent, secretive support!!!

And I note your opening attack!!! You ought to try reality!!!


Taqiyah & Kithman!!!

Understanding Dishonesty and Deceit in Islam


The following discussion is so very important for two reasons. Firstly, because of the prominence of deception in the last-days, and secondly, because of the grave implications that deception for the cause of Islam has for the spread of Islam in the West.



When someone first becomes curious and wishes to begin learning about Islam, it is imperative that they first understand the degree to which lying is not only permitted, but actually fostered and even, at times, commanded in Islam. When a Christian wishes to teach others about Christianity, it is simply understood that honesty will be an essential aspect of that sharing. In Islam however, most westerners have a hard time relating to the fact that purposeful exaggerations, covering of the truth and occasionally – outright-deliberate lying is a core part of the religion of Islam. There are actually specific doctrines and traditions that foster a culture of dishonesty within Islam. Now, of course, there are some verses and traditions in Islam that discourage lying:



And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is). -Surah 2:42 (Yusuf Ali)



But unfortunately, as we are about to see, for many Muslims, it is the exceptions to the rule that have actually become the rule itself.



Deception and Jihad



In order to understand how a religion can rationalize and justify lying, we must first briefly revisit the concept of jihad and the goals of Islam. We have already discussed this in the last chapter, but will point out again that jihad is essentially viewed within Islam as a struggle to bring all things into submission to Allah and Islam. The battlefields that jihad is fought on can be viewed on a spectrum. On one side of the spectrum is the personal inner struggle. This struggle is fought by every Muslim who wishes to overcome his or her own personal weaknesses, or inner demons. As we move across the spectrum there is the need to wage jihad to cause other individuals to submit to Islam. This is, of course, what Christianity calls evangelism. In Islam it is called Dawah. Flowing on down the spectrum, there is the imperative for Islam to take over local and eventually national governments. This is the point, unfortunately where the true face, the violent face of Islam is often revealed and, where jihad usually begins to get bloody. This reality is seen throughout the World today. So, while many people in the West think of jihad as simply fighting against non-Muslim governments and nations etc., the concept in Islam actually includes all aspects of life. So, in the Muslim mind, even the struggle to convert non-Muslims to Islam is part of jihad. Evangelism in Islam is more than just “sharing the good news,” it is war. With this in mind, it is vital that we note Muhammad’s famous saying that, “War is deception.” 1 Thus, when dealing with non-Muslims, Islam encourages Muslims to use an aggressive jihad/war-time mentality that is literally defined by deception. Indeed until any non-Muslim comes to realize the degree to which this mentality plays out when dealing with many Muslims, it will be only too easy to lose touch with a healthy sense of objectivity. When dealing with someone who is purposefully deceptive, trusting individuals – as so many in the West are these days, are like sheep being led to the slaughter.



This mentality of evangelism as jihad also finds its support in Islam under the category of two specific doctrines called Kithman and Taqiya.

Kithman: Hiding the Truth

Kithman is a command to deliberately conceal one’s beliefs. It is a particular form of lying primarily practiced by the minority Shia’ Muslims. This doctrine is articulated by Imam Jafar Sadiq, the sixth Imam of Shia’ Islam:



One, who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us. 2

You belong to a religion that whosoever conceals it, Allah will honor him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him.3

So Shia’ Muslims are commanded to purposefully hide what they truly believe in order to mislead outsiders as to the true nature of their religion. One cannot help but to immediately think of Jesus’ words, when He told his followers never to hide their religion:



You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. Matthew 5:14-16



But instead, Shia’ Muslim are said to “belong to a religion that whosoever conceals it, Allah will honor him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him.” That is the doctrine of kithman. To most westerners, this concept is unimaginable and completely contrary to reason. If you have something good, then share it. If you have something to hide, then I probably don’t want it anyway.



There is essentially no difference between the doctrine of Kithman and the doctrine of Taqiya. Taqiya is defined by one Shia’ Muslim commentator thusly:



The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation." 4



This same commentator however from an article in A ****e Encyclopedia, goes on to state that, “The true spirit of ‘al-Taqiyya’ is better embodied in the single word ‘diplomacy.’” Indeed diplomacy is quite a “diplomatic” definition.



The doctrines of Kithman and Taqiya are often said to be strictly Shia’ doctrines. Sunni Muslims however deny that either doctrine is part of their tradition. Unfortunately, this is merely another deception itself. Next, we will run through some of the Sunni traditions that prove the universal application of Taqiya within Islam.

Taqiya: Foundation for Deception

The Quran teaches that it is allowable for Muslims to literally deny their faith in order to protect themselves. Muslims who deny their faith will be forgiven as long as their true faith was not really shaken (i.e. their denial was a lie in the purest sense) and only if their denial of faith was for the purpose of avoiding harm (primarily while living among non-Muslims):

Anyone who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." -Surah 16:106

The Sunni Scholar, Ibn Kathir, elaborates on the meaning on this verse in his classic commentary on the Quran:

This refers to a group of people who were oppressed in Mecca and whose position with their own people was weak, so they went along with them when they were tried by them… Allah tells them that after this, meaning after their giving in (to the non-Muslims by denying their faith) when put to the test, He will forgive them and show mercy to them when they are resurrected. 5

As long as a Muslim lives in a country where Islam exists as a minority, in “a weakened state,” then deceptiveness is allowed. When challenged by non-Muslims to blaspheme Allah, they “went along with them.” The actual story of how the above verse was “revealed” to Muhammad is told thusly:

The nonbelievers arrested `Ammar Ibn Yasir and tortured him until he uttered foul words about the Prophet (Muhammad), and praised their gods and idols; and when they released him, he went straight to the Prophet. The Prophet said: "Is there something on your mind?" `Ammar Ibn Yasir said: "Bad news! They would not release me until I defamed you and praised their gods!" The Prophet said: "How do you find your heart to be?" `Ammar answered: "Comfortable with faith." So the Prophet said: "Then if they come back for you, then do the same thing all over again." Allah at that moment revealed the verse: "....except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith... [Surah 16:106]" 6

So Muhammad actually encouraged Muslims to lie and blaspheme and deny their beliefs if it was going to protect them, as long as they were “comfortable with faith.” Ibn Abbas, the most renowned and trusted narrator of tradition in the sight of the Sunnis confirms this notion:

Taqiyya is (merely) the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with faith. 7

This is of course quite a contrast to the millions of Christians throughout history who have refused to renounce Christ and have accepted instead death and martyrdom.

The Quran also commands Muslims not to befriend anyone who is not a Muslim – again though, unless doing so can help protect the Muslim from harm:

Let not the believers take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except that you guard yourselves fully against them -Surah 3:28

Ibn Kathir again comments that:

Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships... Allah warned against such behavior when He said, ‘O you who believe! Take not my enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them. And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path.’ And, ‘O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them.’. Allah said next, ‘Unless you indeed fear a danger from them,’ meaning, except those (Muslims) who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, ‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.' 8 (emphasis mine)


Ibn Kathir, then goes on to utterly destroy the notion that Taqiya is for Shia’ Muslims only when he says, “Taqiya is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.”

We see that Taqiya is indeed a doctrine for all Muslims that allows them to literally deny any aspect of their faith and in order to protect themselves from harm.

Deception Justified to Gain Wealth

Despite Ibn Kathir’s comments however, many will make the claim (possibly as a deception tactic itself) that Taqiya should only used to protect ones life. Far from it. Muhammad even allowed lying for the sake of gaining wealth:

After the conquest of the city of Khaybar by the Muslims, the Prophet was approached by Hajaj Ibn `Aalat and told: "O Prophet of Allah: I have in Mecca some excess wealth and some relatives, and I would like to have them back; am I excused if I bad-mouth you to escape persecution?" The Prophet excused him and said: "Say whatever you have to say." 10

It is the “any end justifies the means” approach to life and religion that Muhammad displays that shines through the most here. And there are numerous other examples of Muhammad encouraging his followers to lie as a means to achieve the end goal of the furtherance of Islam.

Deception Justified To Murder The Enemies of Islam

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes." Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab)." The Prophet said, "You may say it." 11

Abdullah Al-Araby a Middle-Eastern born authority on Islam, in an article entitled Lying in Islam, details another story of Muhammad’s permissiveness toward lying to achieve the death of his enemies. This time the victim’s name was Shaaban Ibn Khalid al-Hazly:

It was rumored that Shaaban was gathering an army to wage war on Mohammed. Mohammed retaliated by ordering Abdullah Ibn Anis to kill Shaaban. The would-be killer asked the prophet's permission to lie. Mohammed agreed and then ordered the killer to lie by stating that he was a member of the Khazaa clan. When Shaaban saw Abdullah coming, he asked him, "From what tribe are you?" Abdullah answered, "From Khazaa." He then added, "I have heard that you are gathering an army to fight Mohammed and I came to join you." Abdullah started walking with Shaaban telling him how Mohammed came to them with the heretical teachings of Islam, and complained how Mohammed badmouthed the Arab patriarchs and ruined the Arab's hopes. They continued in conversation until they arrived at Shaaban's tent. Shaaban's companions departed and Shaaban invited Abdullah to come inside and rest. Abdullah sat there until the atmosphere was quiet and he sensed that everyone was asleep. Abdullah severed Shaaban's head and carried it to Mohammed as a trophy. When Mohammed sighted Abdullah, he jubilantly shouted, "Your face has been triumphant (Aflaha al- wajho)." Abdullah returned the greeting by saying, "It is your face, Apostle of Allah, who has been triumphant. (Aflaha wajhoka, ye rasoul Allah)." 12

So we see that, again, lying is permissible for any number of reasons. As long as the end goal is to further the cause of Muhammad or Islam, it is permissible and overrides the initial prohibition against lying. In this case it was permissible in order to achieve the end goal of an assassination of someone whom Muhammad wanted dead. Unfortunately, because Islam holds up Muhammad as the supreme example of behavior for all Muslims, this same attitude is carried on by many of Muhammad’s followers today.

Deception to Attain Goals and Prosperity

Imam Al-Ghazali, one of the most famous Muslim theologians & philosophers of all time, takes the permissibility of lying even further. To Ghazali, lying is permissible so long as virtually any positive or beneficial goal may be achieved:

Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible. 13 (emphasis mine)

Know this that lying is not sin by itself, but if it brings harm to you it could be ugly. However, you can lie if that will keep you from evil or if it will result in prosperity. 14 (emphasis mine)

It is really quite impossible to deny that deceit has found a rich seedbed in Islam to deposit its roots and call home. We see that Islam as a religious system permits and even encourages lying and deceit as a specific aspect of its religious life. The unusal fusion of religion and deceit has profound implications both in matters relating to the spread of Islam in the West as well as in matters relating to our discussion about the last-days.

Implications for Islam in the West

In terms of the implications for today, Abdullah Al-Araby comments:

The principle of sanctioning lying for the cause of Islam bears grave implications in matters relating to the spread of the religion of Islam in the West. Muslim activists employ deceptive tactics in their attempts to polish Islam's image and make it more attractive to prospective converts. 15

I have personally witnessed this dynamic to the point of utter exhaustion. And equally frustrating is the fact that so many Christians, due to either a lack of knowledge or simply not wanting to appear too fighty or contentious, allow the deception to flow unchecked. When Americans witnessed numerous so-called moderate Muslims make speeches to defend the benign nature of “The Religion of Peace,” after 9-11, for instance, many of these speakers were knowingly misrepresenting the true nature of Islam. Many have been documented speaking in far more aggressive terms in private meetings with other Muslims. We pointed out the example of Omar Ahmed, Chairman of the Board of the Council of American Islamic Relations (CAIR) in the last chapter. These Muslims, posing as “moderates” justified their misrepresentations of Islam because in their minds, they were protecting Islam and thus American Muslims from “harm.” It was “damage control” in its truest form. Christians, Americans and unfortunately, even much of the political leadership, either desperately wanting to believe the best of people in order to comfort themselves in times of great uncertainty or through the inevitable dumbing down of the West through the constant hammering of moral-relativity and political correctness, bought much of this deception - hook, line and sinker. Those few who were bold enough to speak the truth regarding the true nature of Islam were viewed as either intolerant or hateful or both. This is the pattern that is followed whenever a great evil is carried out by Islam. Pay attention and you will see it again and again.

Implications for the Last-Days

Of course the implications for Islam’s doctrines of lying are obvious in relation to our discussion of the last-days. The biblical picture of the last-days is one where deception is the absolute rule of the day. Virtually every passage where the end-times are discussed in the New Testament, the author stresses that believers are to be very careful that they not be deceived. Following are some examples of such warnings.

Just before Jesus was taken away to be crucified, he had a discussion with his disciples about the last-days. His very first exhortation was that they be careful not to be deceived.

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you." Matthew 24:3,4

Jesus goes on to warn of the power of this deception:

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.... For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time." Matthew 24:10-11, 24-25 (emphasis mine)

Likewise the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians warns the Church of the need to be cautious of being deceived:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him... Don't let anyone deceive you in any way... 2 Thessolonians 2:1-3

Paul refers to the future deception as “a powerful delusion.”

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (emphasis mine)

Conclusion

I understand that to accuse anyone of being a liar is quite an insult. As such I felt it was important to demonstrate thoroughly the fact that Muhammad, the Quran and Hadith as well as Islam’s most respected scholars all allow lying as a means to achieve any number of goals. I have documented this fact quite plainly. This is not an unfounded accusation made by the “people of falsehood” (a name that the Quran ironically applies to non-Muslims) but is indeed an established doctrine and practice within Islam. While I understand that this may feel like quite strong language, the simple truth is that Islam, as a religious system is a son of its true father. The demonic being that quite literally assaulted Muhammad in the Cave of Hira, is the same being that inspired the ungodly doctrines of deception that have so obviously affected the religion of Islam as we know it today. While I am quite sure that these comments may offend most Muslims, my response would be to ask that they do not get upset with me for reporting this information but rather that they express their anger toward the traditions of Muhammad and the scholars of Islam who not only condone, but encourage such behavior. It is behavior that simply should not be found among those who call themselves godly. The Bible calls on all people to strive to resemble their true heavenly father, the Author of all light and truth.

While most people will agree that religion and deception are not intermixable, it is clear that in Islam, deception and religion mutually support one another. Likewise we can be sure that in the last-days, deception and religion will be so intertwined that it will be difficult even for “the elect” to discern just what is the truth. As such, once again, Islam finds itself fulfilling yet another of the primary descriptions of the last-days system of the Antichrist.


Notes:



1. Sunan Abu Dawood Book 14, Number 2631: Narrated Ka'b ibn Malik



2. Hadith Imam Jafar Sadiq Footnote. #1 Usool al Kafi, p.88



3. ibid. Ft. #2, Ibid, p.522



4. A ****e Encyclopedia October 1995
Revised January 2001 http://www.*************/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html



5. Ibn Kathir’s Tafsir -Surah 16:106 www.tafsir.com



6. Confirmed by At-Tabari and narrated by Abd al-Razak, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi Hatim, Ibn Mardawayh, al-Bayhaqi in his book "al- Dala-il," http://www.*************/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html



7. Sunan al-Bayhaqi and Mustadrak al-Hakim http://www.*************/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html



8. Ibn Kathir’s Tafsir -Surah 3:28 www.tafsir.com



10. Al-Sirah al-Halabiyyah, v3, p61, http://www.*************/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html



11. Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369 Narrated by Jabir bin 'Abdullah



12. Islam Review, Lying in Islam, Abdullah Al Araby http://www.****************/articles/lying.shtml



13. Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, (Amana publications, 1997), section r8.2, p 745



14. Ulum id Din pp. 3,137 As quoted in Islam and Terrorism, Mark Gabriel (Lake Mary, Charisma House 2002), p. 95



15. Islam Review, Lying in Islam, Abdullah Al Araby http://www.****************/articles/lying.shtml
Reply

GuestFellow
11-13-2009, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amalteser
You ought to try reality!!!
Yeah sure until you stop posting gibberish I’m not going to take you seriously. ;D
Reply

amalteser
11-13-2009, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Yeah sure until you stop posting gibberish I’m not going to take you seriously. ;D
So you don't do reality!!! No surprise there then!!!
Reply

aamirsaab
11-13-2009, 06:50 PM
:sl:
Behold my powers of awesomeness as I lock this thread with just my mind!
Reply

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