Eleven-year-old girl gives birth in Bulgaria

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Eleven-year-old girl gives birth in Bulgaria


A Bulgarian schoolgirl, aged 11, has given birth to a baby girl on her wedding day.

Kordeza Zhelyazkova reportedly went into labour during her marriage to the child's father, 19-year-old Jeliazko Dimitrov.
It is reported the bride-to-be was still wearing her wedding dress when she arrived at hospital and gave birth to a healthy 5.5lb baby daughter, Violeta.

Zhelyazkova, thought to be the world's youngest mother, told the News of the World that she would not play with toys anymore as she has "a new toy now".

Her husband now faces up to six years in jail for having sex with a minor.




http://news.uk.msn.com/world/article...ntid=150627323

[Uthman]

[Supreme]

So he should do, peadophile.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

you do realise that her realstionship was that of consent, hence your pedophile allegation holds no weight and even if it did, being convicted of having intercourse with a minor is different from being convicted of a pedophile?

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[KAding]

I assume this is a gypsy girl? They are known to wed early.

On the consent issue. I am not convinced a 10 year old is capable of reasonably giving consent on sexual relations.

[S_87]

why are women ALWAYS the victim?
many girls in the uk are involved in sexual relations from as young as 12. ok the guy maybe under 16 but does it make the girls victimless and this girl a victim?

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

many girls in the uk are involved in sexual relations from as young as 12.

Now a days , all are exposed to the sex world at early age through home cinema hall ( i.e. tv ) but they are considered as too young for marriage even if girls are 16 , 17 and boys are 2o / 21 .
But they are studying in co-ed ; thus getting the chance to enjoy sex without marriage.

Oh Allah. the world has become so dangerous for all.

Anyway , why in that case , parent were so late to arrange marriage ? They did not understand the matter earlier ? Those who don't know , the claim is not correct that she is the youngest mom . Wiki says , youngest is 5 yrs old girl.

[Afg]

^How can youngest mom be 5 years old??

[KAding]

why are women ALWAYS the victim?
many girls in the uk are involved in sexual relations from as young as 12. ok the guy maybe under 16 but does it make the girls victimless and this girl a victim?

I don't think this is about gender, it is about age. The girl is 11. I don't think she is capable of deciding who to marry or who to have sexual relations with. The same would be true for an 11 year old boy.

[sister herb]

Who could knows if this story is true or just a rumor:

Lina Medina, a Peruvian girl from the Andean village of Ticrapo who made medical history when she gave birth to a boy by caesarean section in May 1939 at the age of five years, seven months and 21 days.

:nervous:

[cat eyes]

a girl that i went to school with was meeting boys at the age of 11 and having sex at 12 this story dose not surprise me more then likely she looks a lot older i may bet. a girl that my sister went to school with got pregnant at 11 also! i can't believe he has been sent to prison when she agreed to sleep with him thats disgraceful. though i believe that some girls of this age have no maturity what so ever a marriage of this nature i doubt will last very long when she will be older she will look back and think man how could i have gotton into a relation so quick and had a kid. she will have regrets when she will be older more then likely

[ardianto]

I assume this is a gypsy girl? They are known to wed early.

I have seen her photo. Yes she is gypsy.

[Supreme]

you do realise that her realstionship was that of consent, hence your pedophile allegation holds no weight and even if it did, being convicted of having sex with a minor is different from being convicted of a pedophile?

Oh, well as long as girl of eleven gave her consent to an older man to have sex with her, then that's fine! Let's all start to do that and see how society turns out!

A peadophile, by definition, is an adult attracted to children. The girl was a child. The man was an adult. He had sex with her. Are you honestly suggesting that just because she gave her consent it's fine? Giving her consent still makes it peadophilia, it just doesn't make it rape.

[Uthman]

A peadophile, by definition, is an adult attracted to children.

Medically, it is actually defined as an adult who is sexually attracted to prepubescent children. So if this girl was prepubescent, then this would be paedophilia. Otherwise, it isn't.

On the consent issue. I am not convinced a 10 year old is capable of reasonably giving consent on sexual relations.

I'm sure some 10 year old girls are capable of such a thing, but others aren't. The problem comes when we assign a specific age to such things which, after all, is purely arbitrary. To give an example of this, look at the variation in the legal ages of consent between countries in Europe alone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Regards

[Alphadude]

why is this type of threads approved here i dont understand can u guys find something else instead of these types of posts?

[aamirsaab]

Oh, well as long as girl of eleven gave her consent to an older man to have sex with her, then that's fine! Let's all start to do that and see how society turns out!

A peadophile, by definition, is an adult attracted to children. The girl was a child. The man was an adult. He had sex with her. Are you honestly suggesting that just because she gave her consent it's fine? Giving her consent still makes it peadophilia, it just doesn't make it rape.

You do know in china, the legal age of consent is 13, right?

The definition of child in one culture is different in another. You cannot make value judgements and expect them to apply to all areas and peoples - as easy and simple as it is to do so, that really is not how it works in the reality.

In any case; if the law has allowed this marriage to take place, then it is absolute.

EDIT: I should say I don't actually agree with this event, just merely pointing something out.

[Brasco]

To my mind, we should not say, that he is peadophile. In our eyes, he is, since our society thinks that this is pedophilia. But in their (gipsy) society, it is not considered as pedophilia.

[Alphadude]

You do know in china, the legal age of consent is 13, right?

The definition of child in one culture is different in another. You cannot make value judgements and expect them to apply to all areas and peoples - as easy and simple as it is to do so, that really is not how it works in the reality.

In any case; if the law has allowed this marriage to take place, then it is absolute.

i agree its different in every culture some people get married at young age i think in pakistan there is a part they get married at the age of 14 or 15 so i have heard

[OurIslamic]

I never knew 11 year olds were mature enough to give birth.

[Alphadude]

I never knew 11 year olds were mature enough to give birth.

in england even the ten year old gives birth

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Erm, link to the article isn't working. Could the OP fix it please?

[Uthman]

Erm, link to the article isn't working. Could the OP fix it please?

I think the article has been removed from the website or something. I googled it and it showed me the same link but when I clicked on it, the article wasn't there.

[S_87]

I don't think this is about gender, it is about age. The girl is 11. I don't think she is capable of deciding who to marry or who to have sexual relations with. The same would be true for an 11 year old boy.

She is only being highlighted because she fell pregnant but there are many teenagers in the west who are involved in sexual relations as young as 11!

I never knew 11 year olds were mature enough to give birth.

as soon as a girl starts menstruating, although she may not be fully grown she is physically able to get pregnant and give birth. menstruation starts as young as 9...

[Ansariyah]

I'm not shocked...

[Asiyah3]

Here in Finland you see young girls aged 11-13 on streets with alcohol-bottles and many of them have sex at that age. On forums you see young girls/boys asking about oralsex and even worse. You don't want to know in detail they're conversations :D.

I read a conversation where the people were talking about whether alcohol should be given to youngsters. Most of them encouraged this to superidiculous reasons such as "They will learn to drink moderately" etc.. I just say Al-hamdulillah for the guidance of Islam! This conversation reminded me so much of the hadith of the prophet (SAAS) about the minor signs of the Hour that I almost cried for some reason: A slave girl will give birth to it's master. If you were to read it, you seriously would have felt as if the parents were the slaves. Nowadays the minor signs are so general.

I just say Al-hamdulillah for the guidance of Islam!

What makes me laugh even more is that for example if a youngster would get married outside western countries to a guy they would make it such a big deal. But if it was so that if a girl gets drunk with her friend on weekends then she spends the night with a guy- then it's totally alright.

In addition if a woman marries some-one without having a relationship with the man, then they would grind about it enough. BUT if a woman goes to a bar and spends the night with a stranger doing all sorts of things then "Oh, ok"

Sorry if my post got a bit over the topic

[sister herb]

:sl:

Here in Finland you see young girls aged 11-13 on streets with alcohol-bottles and many of them have sex at that age.

Salam siskolle Suomesta.

Yes this is right; in here young girls dress and make up for looking older they are. They believe that drinking alcohol and having sex-partnes make them adults.

I think this 11-year-old in this new made same - as hers husband thinked that she is older one.

imsad poor kid anyways

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Benefits and toy for the girl and jail for the boy?

why are women ALWAYS the victim?
many girls in the uk are involved in sexual relations from as young as 12. ok the guy maybe under 16 but does it make the girls victimless and this girl a victim?

justice, eh? makes you wonder doesn't it.

Oh, well as long as girl of eleven gave her consent to an older man to have sex with her, then that's fine!

good, agreed.
he would have been convicted of rape/sexual abuse. children arent stupid and know very well when someone is sexually abusing them. so, again your point hold no weigh.

Let's all start to do that and see how society turns out!

lets indeed.
i can think of alot worse thing that aren't illegal and have caused "rifts" in society eg adultery/fornication, as well as adoption hence alot of the time children being deprived of the knowledge of who their lineage lies with :(

A peadophile, by definition, is an adult attracted to children.

Medically, it is actually defined as an adult who is sexually attracted to prepubescent children. So if this girl was prepubescent, then this would be paedophilia. Otherwise, it isn't.

The girl was a child.

your not a child when you reach the age of puberty. for the love of god, go learn some basic human anatomy and physiology.

The man was an adult.

so was she.

He had sex with her.

no sh*t Sherlock.

Are you honestly suggesting that just because she gave her consent it's fine?

yes. consent is very important in such relationships for them to be considered legal.

Giving her consent still makes it peadophilia, it just doesn't make it rape.

Medically, it is actually defined as an adult who is sexually attracted to prepubescent children. So if this girl was prepubescent, then this would be paedophilia. Otherwise, it isn't.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

why is this type of threads approved here i dont understand can u guys find something else instead of these types of posts?

i personally posted it as i thought someone else could come along and use it as a refutation.

'It's normal for our girls to have babies young. It's our tradition.

that's interesting *makes a mental note to look up marriage/age of giving birth traditions in Bulgaria* :exhausted

see? good refutation potential :-[

[titus]

your not a child when you reach the age of puberty

Mentally and socially puberty has little to do with childhood. Some girls begin having periods before kindergarten, but I don't anyone that would say are not a child.

Surely you are not claiming that a 9 year old girl, or even an 11 year old girl should be considered an adult?

I don't know any 11 year old girls that are mature enough to be able to make a rational decision about sex, much less having children.

[S_87]

Mentally and socially puberty has little to do with childhood. Some girls begin having periods before kindergarten, but I don't anyone that would say are not a child.

Surely you are not claiming that a 9 year old girl, or even an 11 year old girl should be considered an adult?

I don't know any 11 year old girls that are mature enough to be able to make a rational decision about sex, much less having children.

stop with the double stadards, put this story aside and LOOK at the free west where girls as young as this 11 year old are ALREADY having sex..sure they might not get pregnant but they are still involved in full sexual activity.

lets address that for a minute. why arent those girls being treated for 'rape' and the guys they are sleeping with done in for illegal sex? why are those who do get pregnant allowed to keep their children if they arent mature enough?

[Trumble]

stop with the double stadards, put this story aside and LOOK at the free west where girls as young as this 11 year old are ALREADY having sex..sure they might not get pregnant but they are still involved in full sexual activity.

There are no 'double standards'. No doubt a tiny minority are sexually active at that age, and historically always have been, but to suggest that is any sort of norm is completely without foundation. Such sexual activity is, in any event, illegal.

lets address that for a minute. why arent those girls being treated for 'rape' and the guys they are sleeping with done in for illegal sex?

They are treated for rape if they have been raped, and do receive appropriate counselling even if consent was given. The 'guys' involved are prosecuted, although obviously their own age is taken into account.

why are those who do get pregnant allowed to keep their children if they arent mature enough?

Because social services are satisfied that a suitable support 'network' is in place, usually primarily in the form of the baby's grandparents. In the absence of that, the child would be taken into care.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Mentally and socially puberty has little to do with childhood.

this argument is not based on mental and social factors, but on physical factors.

Some girls begin having periods before kindergarten, but I don't anyone that would say are not a child.

when a child (boy or girl) shows signs of puberty before the average/expected age (if i remember correctly, its about 8-12 in girls and 9-13 in boys) there is considered to be an underlying medical problem (eg a tumor in the brain) so the child is not considered to have reached puberty.

Surely you are not claiming that a 9 year old girl, or even an 11 year old girl should be considered an adult?

physically, yes. and guess what? so are medical professionals.

however,

Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azîz ibn Ahmad Ad-Durayhim:

As for the possible negative consequences of a man of such a mature age marrying such a young girl, it is patently obvious. The discrepancies in their capabilities, both physically and mentally, could bring about serious differences between the two of them that could lead to the failure of the marriage. This is something that has been seen and is well understood.

Therefore, I would not recommend such a marriage nor would I encourage it.

Moreover, with respect to what we have said about the legal validity of such a marriage, that refers to the validity of the contract itself. As for the effects of the marriage - such as privacy, intimacy and sexual relations - that is another matter entirely. Such things are permitted only if the girl is able to handle such a relationship without any harm whatsoever coming to. Otherwise, it is prohibited. This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There shall be no harm nor the causing of harm."

It can also be seen in the very conduct of the Prophet (peace be upon him). He did not consummate his marriage with 'A’ishah for a number of years on account of her young age.

And from the fatwâ committee supervised by Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahhâb At-Turayrî we note:

The lawfulness of consummating a marriage at such an age is contingent on the maturity of the girl and that no harm would come to her.

So if any harm would come from it, then it is unlawful i.e. harâm.


Q: So why didn't Islam prohibit such practices that are harmful?

Actually, it did. It would be impossible for Islam to have an explicit prohibition on every dangerous behavior from jumping off a scyscraper to smoking, so Islam has provided a single broad injunction to cover all instances of harm:

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said,

لا ضرر ولا ضر
"There is to be no harming, nor reciprocating of harm." (Musnad Ahmad, authenticated by Al-Albânî)

And Allah knows best.

I don't know any 11 year old girls that are mature enough to be able to make a rational decision about sex, much less having children.

i dont know many either...i dont know any at all actually. but then again, it takes tu-tu tango, doesn't it?

[Pomak]

For the record, Gypsie=/=Bulgarians.

Generally speaking they are poor so they do have kids young.

[جوري]

I don't think this is about gender, it is about age. The girl is 11. I don't think she is capable of deciding who to marry or who to have sexual relations with. The same would be true for an 11 year old boy.

if they make the decision to have sex, I think they should be capable of making the decision to be married?.. I don't agree at all with 11 year olds getting married (in this day and age) but I disagree even more with an 11 year old having sex, or having BCP passed to them in school:

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=140910

Now, which is the lesser evil in your mind? getting married or having sex?
marriage comes with a contract, some expectations of responsibility and financial security..
what does sex come with? STD's, dumping hormones with the potential of very harmful side effects down the line, B astard children and the abasement of the family unit?

I think the choice is rather obvious.. if you are going to have expectations and marriage age and laws, then you should by the same token have the same laws about having sex..

This is really one of the reasons one can't wrap their mind around the hypocrisy and double standards of westerners.. this is freedom, that is freedom, here kids have a bunch of free condoms on the house, but that, well that is pedophilia and this is rape.

all the best

[Ummu Sufyaan]

A 12-year-old girl who fell pregnant to her 15-year-old live-in boyfriend has given birth to a baby boy.

Earlier this year, the NSW Department of Community Services (DoCS) was forced to apologise when it was revealed the girl’s father had warned them his daughter was sleeping with her boyfriend at her mother’s house.

The girl’s father has told Woman’s Day magazine that he didn’t think his daughter, now 12, was up to the task of being a mother.

“She is only a baby herself and now she’s got a baby,” he told the Woman’s Day on sale on Monday.

“She has no maternal instincts at all.”

Minister for Community Services Linda Burney in June admitted the girl’s case had been overlooked by a “stretched” DoCS.

Source......

[titus]

physically, yes. and guess what? so are medical professionals.

You cannot equate physical maturity with mental maturity. For example, just because one ten year old boy has hair under his armpits does not mean that he is more mature than another that doesn't. Physical and mental maturity have nothing to do with each. An eleven year old, pubescent or not, is simply not going to be mature enough to make a well thought out decision about sex or completely understand its consequences.

marriage comes with a contract, some expectations of responsibility and financial security..

Marriage is a lifelong commitment with no guarantees of financial security at all. It is certainly a decision that no eleven year old I have ever met could truly comprehend.

Why is the male getting punished only?

Because the male was old enough to know better. The female was still a child.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

You cannot equate physical maturity with mental maturity. For example, just because one ten year old boy has hair under his armpits does not mean that he is more mature than another that doesn't. Physical and mental maturity have nothing to do with each. An eleven year old, pubescent or not, is simply not going to be mature enough to make a well thought out decision about sex or completely understand its consequences.

i am well aware.
what i was getting at is that islamophobics are against aesha's (radhiallahu anha's) marriage because she was physically a child (so they say) and a child cant bear the physical capability of pregnancy and child-birth. but medical evidence as well as reality has indicated otherwise.

i dont agree with young people nowadays getting married this early, but just becuase an 11 yr old girl these days cant handle it, where is the evidence to suggest that a girl 1400 yrs back couldn't? who are we to "probe" like this into other people marriages!? there is evidence to suggest that men also got married at a young age (11) 1400 years ago as-well....you people really need to take into account the upbringing one may have when dealing with such matters. i bet these "children" would be fit parents if education about their physical cahnges, etc was coupled with the education on what to do if they became mothers and fathers, unexpectedly....i would really be interested in seeing the outcome of something like that.

there seems to be a strange trend in the west where children learn about such relationships etc at such a young age (eg through tv) and are led to believe that these relationships, etc are ok (becuase apparently they are still children) and yet the consequences of such are hardly ever taken into account, not to mention they get laughed at by their elders with a "kids these days" or "geez, they start early these days ;D" im failing to see how that is consistent?

Marriage is a lifelong commitment with no guarantees of financial security at all.

yes there is. well, islamically, anyway. ok, not completely as no-one knows what is going to happen, but at the very least the husband is obliged and is financially responsible for his wife and children.

why do tax payers have to pay for the irresponsibility of others, when the "others" evidently couldn't care less?

[جوري]

Marriage is a lifelong commitment with no guarantees of financial security at all. It is certainly a decision that no eleven year old I have ever met could truly comprehend..

Indeed and so does sex, it has long term commitments, when you contract Hep C, or B or chlamydia or Gonorrhea or syphilis, or Trichomonas vaginalis or Condyloma acuminata or Gardnerella vaginalis or AIDS etc. or are working on the prevention end by taking BCP and dump hormones into your body at a young age and end up with Dysmenorrhea, Ovarian cysts, associations with mutations in the BRCA1 or BRCA2 gene, Endometrial cancer, and later Postmenopausal hip fracture, plus psychosocial ramifications, or end up with a baby.. it is all yours to keep for the long haul!

once you've figured out how to circumvent why sex is socially acceptable and falls under the heading of freedom but marriage isn't can you come with said bravado and explain to me why 11 year olds don't truly comprehend the ensues of marriage but do when having sex (protected or not)!


As stated above in this day and age I don't agree with 11 year old marrying, but I don't agree with them having sex either.. if they are going to do one, at least do it properly, to understand the weightiness of this commitment.. a baby is theirs to keep just like an STD, marriage means being responsible for yourself and the people you are bedding and the outcome of that, emancipated.. what does sex by itself mean?


I don't really need sophistical and philosophical yet insufficiently thought words of wisdom when they offer no true solution..
They are both equally responsible here, girls mature mentally faster than boys, so both of them are pretty much compatible!

all the best

[titus]

nce you've figured out how to circumvent why sex is socially acceptable and falls under the heading of freedom but marriage isn't can you come with said bravado and explain to me why 11 year olds don't truly comprehend the ensues of marriage but do when having sex (protected or not)!

I think you are making things up to argue about. Has anyone here said that marriage is socially unacceptable?

I think some people have said that an 11 year old getting married should be unacceptable as she is too young to know the consequences. I believe this is also too young to be having sex.

I am also talking current day. I don't care about what happened 1400 years ago. You are the one bringing that baggage into this discussion, not me.

As stated above in this day and age I don't agree with 11 year old marrying, but I don't agree with them having sex either.

Then we agree.

They are both equally responsible here, girls mature mentally faster than boys, so both of them are pretty much compatible!

So you are saying that a 19 year old boy is as mature, mentally, as an 11 year old girl? I strongly disagree. (and I suppose you meant comparable, not compatible?)

[جوري]

I think you are making things up to argue about. Has anyone here said that marriage is socially unacceptable?

Oh, I don't know something about her 19 year old husband being thrown in jail!

I think some people have said that an 11 year old getting married should be unacceptable as she is too young to know the consequences. I believe this is also too young to be having sex.

The decision is really hers to make, you haven't sat down with her to determine her level of maturity-- question is why wait until she has an infant to throw the father in jail? shouldn't in retrospect someone have thought of this before marrying them off?

I am also talking current day. I don't care about what happened 1400 years ago. You are the one bringing that baggage into this discussion, not me.

I am not bringing any baggage into the discussion, in fact I'd go so far and say you were looking for some kind of reaction given my original response was to a comment made by Kading and not your person!

Then we agree.

Then perhaps you should go out there and advocate for one as much as the other so you don't come across like a complete hypocrite?

So you are saying that a 19 year old boy is as mature, mentally, as an 11 year old girl? I strongly disagree. (and I suppose you meant comparable, not compatible?)

No I meant compatible as in (exist in harmonious or agreeable combination).. having things in common, same level of maturity!


if I meant comparable I'd have so written!

all the best

[titus]

Oh, I don't know something about her 19 year old husband being thrown in jail!

The father is in jail for sex with a minor, not marriage with a minor.

The decision is really hers to make, you haven't sat down with her to determine her level of maturity--

She is 11 years old. She is not mature nor knowledgeable enough to make that decision.

hen perhaps you should go out there and advocate for one as much as the other so you don't come across like a complete hypocrite?

Amazing. You always turn a discussion into an insult-fest. You have way too much anger inside you.

having things in common, same level of maturity!

19 year olds should not be dating 11 year olds. They have little in common and are miles apart in maturity.

[جوري]

The father is in jail for sex with a minor, not marriage with a minor.

OH-IC.. I was under the impression that folks have sex when they get married?

She is 11 years old. She is not mature nor knowledgeable enough to make that decision.

Says who?

Amazing. You always turn a discussion into an insult-fest. You have way too much anger inside you.

Rather I point out the obvious!

19 year olds should not be dating 11 year olds. They have little in common and are miles apart in maturity.

ah, but they were not dating, they were married, and again, you have no insight as to whether or not they have the same level of maturity or commonalities.. you go by some imaginary cut off line.. one that determines that marriage is a no no but sexual intercourse is acceptable, as evidenced by BCP's being handed to 11 year olds in middle school.. what can we call that other than what it is?

all the best

[titus]

OH-IC.. I was under the impression that folks have sex when they get married?

I am simply stating a fact. The man is in jail for having sex with an 11 year old. Nothing has been mentioned about his being in jail having anything whatsoever to do with their marriage.

ah, but they were not dating, they were married

She gave birth on their wedding day. Call it dating, or call it just having sex, but this child was not the result of a marriage, the marriage was the result of a child.

you have no insight as to whether or not they have the same level of maturity or commonalities

So are you arguing for a 19 year old man having sex with an 11 year old girl or are you against it? Are you arguing that 11 year old girls should be allowed to marry 19 year old men or not? You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth here, yet call me the hypocrite.

Make up your mind.

[جوري]

I am simply stating a fact. The man is in jail for having sex with an 11 year old. Nothing has been mentioned about his being in jail having anything whatsoever to do with their marriage.

The expectations is people will have sex if they have a relationship (to which by the way) she was an active partner by withholding her age from him-- and which they both wanted a life long commitment!

She gave birth on their wedding day. Call it dating, or call it just having sex, but this child was not the result of a marriage, the marriage was the result of a child.

What is your point? see paragraph one.. if there was no baby, and they'd gotten married (period) would he still be facing up charges? people don't know what others do in their bedroom, she certainly didn't complain, and they were making it official!

So are you arguing for a 19 year old man having sex with an 11 year old girl or are you against it? Are you arguing that 11 year old girls should be allowed to marry 19 year old men or not? You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth here, yet call me the hypocrite.

Make up your mind.

I think it is obvious what I am arguing for.. there is no changing the fact of the matter.. it has happened and they tried to rectify their mistake by having a family unit!.. what is the point to throw perhaps the only source of income for this new infant in jail because some morons decided she is an idiot and he is a pedophile?

1- she lies about her age
2- she 'fancied' him according to her
3- Her grandmother stated 'we marry young'
4- he owned up to it and was ready for commitment in spite of being fearful and not knowing her true age!
5- they have a child together..

so, now who the hell are you or some state law to decide she is immature and he is a rapist?

was that too difficult for you to understand? I hope it is clear now!

all the best

[MSalman]

A peadophile, by definition, is an adult attracted to children. The girl was a child. The man was an adult. He had sex with her. Are you honestly suggesting that just because she gave her consent it's fine? Giving her consent still makes it peadophilia, it just doesn't make it rape.

and by whose's standards she is a child. For God's sake she gave birth to a baby and you are calling her a child. She is a woman biologically! Saying she is young aged and mentally not mature is another thing but calling her a child and thus labeling her boyfriend pedophile, come on!

the interesting thing about these events is that the girls are labeled as 'victim', 'immature', 'taken advantage of' but the boys are thrown into jails for crime even though they both consented to go ahead with it. You will not see anyone speaking about their illegal sex (before marriage) but everyone will come around pitying the girl, sympathizing her, and presenting her as an immature victim even though her actions prove many of these synthesizers wrong. amazing society, their laws, morals and principles!

[titus]

i dont agree with young people nowadays getting married this early

then

As stated above in this day and age I don't agree with 11 year old marrying

Then

I think it is obvious what I am arguing for.. there is no changing the fact of the matter.. it has happened and they tried to rectify their mistake by having a family unit!

So you are against them marrying, except that you feel it is fine since they had sex already and she was pregnant? Or it's fine because her grandmother approves? Or it's fine because she has a crush on him? It's fine because the 19 year old agreed to marry her?

Please clarify when you think it is fine for an 11 year old to get married, even though you have stated twice that you are against 11 years getting married.

Then please clarify for us what criteria you think there should be for putting pedophiles in jail. Tell me what criteria you would use that would allow a 19 year old man to have sex with an 11 year old with no penalty.

Do you think that I should be allowed to have sex with an 11 year old girl with no penalty? How about a 10 year old? 8?

[جوري]

then


Then

is it that you are unable or unwilling to understand?

So you are against them marrying, except that you feel it is fine since they had sex already and she was pregnant? Or it's fine because her grandmother approves? Or it's fine because she has a crush on him? It's fine because the 19 year old agreed to marry her?

I never said I was 'Against' them marrying, harm has been done, it is about rectifying the situation not making it worst (you don't know what is best for this particular family) there isn't a set standard by which all society should be governed, in some places in Africa the life expectancy is 44, their population is actually dwindling, do you propose that they marry at the tender age of 25 because you deem that suitable and not criminal? .. if her husband or husband to be lands in jail she is on her own as an 11 year old single mother! Them being married at least guarantees some semblance of security, financial or otherwise!

Please clarify when you think it is fine for an 11 year old to get married, even though you have stated twice that you are against 11 years getting married.

See above, it is really not that difficult to understand..

Then please clarify for us what criteria you think there should be for putting pedophiles in jail. Tell me what criteria you would use that would allow a 19 year old man to have sex with an 11 year old with no penalty.

When a crime has been committed not consented to!

Do you think that I should be allowed to have sex with an 11 year old girl with no penalty? How about a 10 year old? 8?

I really don't give a **** what you do or don't do.. you are not someone whose life is of interest nor are you the topic of this subject!

all the best

[MSalman]

So are you arguing for a 19 year old man having sex with an 11 year old girl or are you against it? Are you arguing that 11 year old girls should be allowed to marry 19 year old men or not? You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth here, yet call me the hypocrite.

Make up your mind.

no, it is you who need to some reality check and few slaps to knock some sense into you. putting aside the whole sex thing, if two people agree to get married and they both are capable of handling the marriage, physically, mentally and financially then who the heck are you to say they should not get married or support the moronic idiotic law to stop this from happening? Who gave you the right to butt in other people's private affairs and speak on behalf of supposedly 'victim', who does not even agree with you? Who in the world told you that age matters in marriage? What matters is 4 things I mentioned above: consent, physical, mental and financial ability to handle the marriage. These contradictory and moronic laws of age of marriage which your countries have passed have no value in the real world. Funny thing is that none of your countries agree with each other on deciding this age: when someone is mature and has become a man or woman! You want us to follow this rubbish, no thanks, keep it yourself and living in deluded world of 'superior ground in morality'. How funny that you attack us based on these flawed morals!

[جوري]

^^ good
the girl i christian btw..
it is common in many parts of the world from a geopolitical and socioeconomic reasons and conditions to have an exceptionally early marriage...
by same token of hypocrisy they should forbid elderly individuals from marrying, having surrogates, and harvesting other people's eggs and sperms on the account that they can no longer conceive for biological and physiological reasons, admittedly for me the latter is the one that should carry even more moral apprehension & scrutiny!

:wa:

[cat eyes]

:sl:
I Fully agree with the marriage they should get married it dose not make sense to throw the father in jail because this girl will need support etc.
And control your anger brother islamic life we don't want to be giving threats to non muslims of slapping sense in to there heads:)

[titus]

When a crime has been committed not consented to!

You truly believe that? You think if an 8 year old consents to sex that it should allowed?

no, it is you who need to some reality check and few slaps to knock some sense into you.

I need to be slapped a few times? Why are there so many rude people on this forum?

Who gave you the right to butt in other people's private affairs and speak on behalf of supposedly 'victim', who does not even agree with you?

Everyone should have the right to voice their opinion. Tell me, do you think gay men should be allowed to marry each other? If not, then who gave you the right to butt into other people's private affairs and speak on behalf of people who don't agree with you?

I don't believe anyone should slap you, though, for believing differently than I do.

Who in the world told you that age matters in marriage?

Do you think a little girl can truly comprehend the immensity of marriage and what it will mean for her? Do you think an 11 year old truly has any idea what kind of man will make the best husband for her?

Please don't tell me that most 11 year olds have this capacity. They don't.

if two people agree to get married and they both are capable of handling the marriage, physically, mentally and financially then who the heck are you to say they should not get married or support the moronic idiotic law to stop this from happening?

Then you tell me what you define as "mentally able", "physically able", and "financially able". Who decides if an 11 year old is mentally able to get married? Who decides if someone is physically able? What, according to you, should be the criteria?

How funny that you attack us based on these flawed morals!

Exactly how was I attacking you? The people in this article are not even Muslims.

[titus]

by same token of hypocrisy they should forbid elderly individuals from marrying,

Wouldn't hypocrisy be saying that this girl should be allowed to get married because she can conceive children, yet allowing the elderly to get married even though they can't?

[جوري]

You truly believe that? You think if an 8 year old consents to sex that it should allowed?

is she 8 now or 11? do you think you can focus at the task at hand?

Do you think a little girl can truly comprehend the immensity of marriage and what it will mean for her? Do you think an 11 year old truly has any idea what kind of man will make the best husband for her?

Do you think an 11 year old can comprehend the immensity of having a child and being a single mother? I think you constantly miss the point entirely!

Please don't tell me that most 11 year olds have this capacity. They don't.

You don't know who is capable of what, my 11 year old niece has already skipped two grades in school, her level of intellect is that of a 9th grader instead of a sixth grader.. again, what formal survey or study have you done, and if you have does everyone fall in the center of a bell shaped curve?



all the best!

[جوري]

Wouldn't hypocrisy be saying that this girl should be allowed to get married because she can conceive children, yet allowing the elderly to get married even though they can't?

The point I have made was using surrogates and bought sperms and eggs not the age of marriage (and due to my time constraints I'll not get into the dynamics of that).. further, I have never said this girl should be married because she can conceive, the fact is she has already given birth and stands to be a single mother if her husband to be is thrown in jail.. which in your mind do you think is more reprehensible, throwing her husband in jail because you and those like you think an abomination has been committed against her though she herself consented to it and worst yet already has a child, or rather allowing these people to figure this out with the help of their family and as a strong unit?


distorting what I write so that it can have your desired meaning doesn't change the fact of the matter, especially that I have clearly elucidated my points!

all the best

[titus]

is she 8 now or 11? do you think you can focus at the task at hand?

You seem to say that it is not a crime if it is consented to. I want to see if you can clarify your point. I know you believe that if an 11 year old consents to sex then you have no problem with it, I wanted to know if that also applied to 8 year olds. Where exactly do you draw the line? Or do you draw the line?

Do you think an 11 year old can comprehend the immensity of having a child and being a single mother?

No, I don't. I think she has no clue the true significance of having a child or the responsibility that she has. In fact neither do the grandparents because they are the ones that said they will be raising the child. They also realize that this little girl cannot handle it.

You don't know who is capable of what, my 11 year old niece has already skipped two grades in school, her level of intellect is that of a 9th grader instead of a sixth grader.

You are equating intellect and maturity? They are two different things.

[جوري]

You seem to say that it is not a crime if it is consented to. I want to see if you can clarify your point. I know you believe that if an 11 year old consents to sex then you have no problem with it, I wanted to know if that also applied to 8 year olds. Where exactly do you draw the line? Or do you draw the line?

Menses for starters doesn't start at 8, just in case you wish to loan your drivel some credence.. and that is how cultures usually define the age of consent or the age of being nubile!
my standards aren't a subject for this topic anymore than a hypothetical 8 year old or your actions toward 8 year olds or even younger.. you sound like an angry rabid creature who wants to hang on to straws to save his dear life.. again, do you think you can focus at the topic at hand?

No, I don't. I think she has no clue the true significance of having a child or the responsibility that she has. In fact neither do the grandparents because they are the ones that said they will be raising the child. They also realize that this little girl cannot handle it.

Yeah, you think she has no clue.. but the facts are already on the table.. an infant will not go back to being a zygote and imprisoning her would be husband will in fact exacerbate an already bad situation... This is no longer a matter of prevention (as stated previously and twice, I don't think people should be married or having kids at 11) yet they have and they do.. the logical approach is to fix the situation, not make it worst.. one day this infant will grow up thinking he is a b astard child, and that his father is a rapist, even though he isn't, and that his mother is a w hore..
if they are too young to think that such definitions and societal views of them exist, then by the same token they are too young to understand imprisonment and being made into pariahs for what came naturally to them!

You are equating intellect and maturity? They are two different things.

I am really tired of your pedantic approach to the topic and everything written.. if it isn't one thing it is the other with you..
first it is about 8 year olds, then about you screwing 8 year olds, then about elderly not being married, then about intellect... please give me and the rest of us and perhaps even do yourself a great service and just take a hike, you are completely inept at handling the topic!

all the best

[titus]

Menses for starters doesn't start at 8

Sometimes it does, actually.

my standards aren't a subject for this topic

They aren't? Strange, since every post you make is about what you think the standards should be. You are just a study in contradictions.

Yeah, you think she has no clue.. but the facts are already on the table

The facts on the table are that an 11 year old girl who still plays with toys had a baby and got married. Those facts have absolutely nothing to do with her readiness or maturity. Her getting married will not solve anything nor will it make the situation any better.

I am really tired of your pedantic approach to the topic and everything written.. if it isn't one thing it is the other with you..

I simply stated that intellect and maturity are two different things. The logic of your previous statement assumed they were the same. I am sorry that pointing out the flaws in your statements upsets you so much, but the insults only serve to accentuate your inability to make an intelligent response on the subject.

[جوري]

Sometimes it does, actually.

Again, not a topic on precocious puberty, rather normal physiological menses which is defined by the American pediatric association to fall between the ages of (9-16) under either circumstance and like everything else you bring to the table is completely irrelevant to our purposes here!

They aren't? Strange, since every post you make is about what you think the standards should be. You are just a study in contradictions.

Perhaps it has to do with how you read and process information, and given your just above statement seems to cements that charge!

The facts on the table are that an 11 year old girl who still plays with toys had a baby and got married. Those facts have absolutely nothing to do with her readiness or maturity. Her getting married will not solve anything nor will it make the situation any better.

you can have a doctorate and play with toys!
I have never seen a warning on my nintendo wii, that it is for children only or vice versa!

I simply stated that intellect and maturity are two different things. The logic of your previous statement assumed they were the same. I am sorry that pointing out the flaws in your statements upsets you so much, but the insults only serve to accentuate your inability to make an intelligent response on the subject.

I think this is an excellent perceptiveness into your own shortcomings and psyche!


all the best

[titus]

Again, not a topic on precocious puberty, rather normal physiological puberty which is defined by the American pediatric association to fall between the ages of (9-16) under either circumstance and like everything else you bring to the table is completely irrelevant to our purposes here!

1) Physiological puberty can begin at ages 7 or 8.
2) You are the one that brought this to the table. Nice attempt to turn the tables, although failed.
3) Funny how you post this yet accuse me of being pedantic.

You cannot attempt to equate puberty with maturity, then say it is off topic to talk about the ages of puberty.

And since you seem to have googled about this I decided to also. The Mayo Clinic says that "Puberty normally begins in girls between ages 8 and 12 and in boys between ages 9 and 14. Precocious puberty is puberty that begins before age 8 for girls and before age 9 for boys."

you can have a doctorate and play with toys!

We are talking about an 11 year old girl, not a doctor.

I think this is an excellent perceptiveness into your own shortcomings and psyche!

It is? How so when I am not the one posting insults?

[جوري]

1) Physiological puberty can begin at ages 7 or 8.

we are not talking puberty we are talking the onset of menses:
http://ashwellpharmacychimemillltd.c...o_pdf=1&id=311

puberty is a three year process which prepares the body for ovulation. 8 year olds having menses should be investigated for precocious puberty just like 16 year olds who haven't menstruated should be checked for both primary and secondary causes!

2) You are the one that brought this to the table. Nice attempt to turn the tables, although failed.
3) Funny how you post this yet accuse me of being pedantic.

Neither of these statements, although amusing to you on some level have any relevance to the topic or the point you are trying to make, if you ever had one!

You cannot attempt to equate puberty with maturity, then say it is off topic to talk about the ages of puberty.

Until such a time we see your double blind study with a tight confidence interval separating the two in all populations can we do the obvious with your testimony, which is to bin it!

And since you seem to have googled about this I decided to also. The Mayo Clinic says that "Puberty normally begins in girls between ages 8 and 12 and in boys between ages 9 and 14. Precocious puberty is puberty that begins before age 8 for girls and before age 9 for boys."

Again, see my previous post and this one.. puberty and menses aren't one in the same .. menstruation is the crowning result of that and the ability to bear children.. I really do think there is something wrong with how you read and process info.

We are talking about an 11 year old girl, not a doctor.

What does this mean?

It is? How so when I am not the one posting insults?

I have been trying to figure out what it is you are posting.. I think you are having difficulty bringing this plane in for a landing?

all the best!

[جوري]

you have failed to correctly quote my previous post, corrected 6 mins before the delightful presence of yours.. precocious puberty can result in onset of menses before the age of 9.. however normal physiological puberty brings the onset of menses in the interval stated and cited in the article I quoted above!

all the best

[titus]

Neither of these statements, although amusing to you on some level have any relevance to the topic or the point you are trying to make, if you ever had one!

My point was that this girl is too young to be having sex and too young to be getting married. You seem to be arguing that age doesn't matter.

I think that if a 19 year old man is knowingly having sex with an 11 year old he should be punished. You think they should get married.

I think that an 11 year old girl is not mature enough to understand the complexity of marriage, much less be able to make an intelligent, informed decision on what kind of husband or what man she will be spending the rest of her life with. You argue that since the man got her pregnant that by getting married it makes everything ok.

You say that I should not impose my standards upon others, I simply want to know what standard should be imposed, or should we follow the logic that noone should impose their standards on someone else. I ask this because if noone is allowed to impose their standard on someone else then it would seem that your stand would mean that you would allow anyone to have sex with children with no punishment. Then you seemed to argue that once someone starts menstruating then it's ok to have sex with them (consensual sex with a 9 year old as long as they are menstruating?), then you say only if it is not precocious puberty. You seem to be all over the place and I simply want you to clarify your position on this subject which you seem so passionate about. Do you ever think it should be illegal for a 19 year old man to have sex with a child, and if so when would you draw the line? You obviously would make it less than 11, so please enlighten us.

I have been making my point quite clearly. Which part have you missed, and what exactly is your point?

[MSalman]

the people of knowledge say that a person can never win a debate against an ignorant, lacking knowledge, person. it is even worse when we got ignorant + morally bankrupt

:sl:
I Fully agree with the marriage they should get married it dose not make sense to throw the father in jail because this girl will need support etc.
And control your anger brother islamic life we don't want to be giving threats to non muslims of slapping sense in to there heads:)

:wa:

sister, few things to keep in mind insha'Allah. Our anger love, kindness, hatred is for Allah. By slap, I did not many physically, I meant few common sense, academic slaps. Many of these morally bankrupt ignorant kuffaar, who are not fair and balanced and argue for sake of arguing, deserve more than just few slaps. Even ta'zeer punishment is not enough to give them what they deserve for their crimes against Allah and rest of humanity.

You truly believe that? You think if an 8 year old consents to sex that it should allowed?

if she meets the conditions which I gave in me previous post then why not? however, generally speaking, in our age does 8 years old meet those conditions, the answer is no. Thus, your question is completely irrelevant - you can run around with it but it serves no purpose. Secondly, by which standards she should not be allowed to get married? Let me guess, your age based standards. Did you know that in our time even many 16 and 18 years old are not ready for marriage but how come you allow them, specifically speaking your laws?

I need to be slapped a few times? Why are there so many rude people on this forum?

it is hardly my fault if you cannot understand the language in the context. It was never meant physical. Secondly, humiliating you by exposing your blunders and flawed reasoning with harsh language is not rude.

Everyone should have the right to voice their opinion. Tell me, do you think gay men should be allowed to marry each other? If not, then who gave you the right to butt into other people's private affairs and speak on behalf of people who don't agree with you?

you really do not read, do you? It saddens me that you cannot differentiate between different concepts and what people are trying to say. First, my argument was divided in two parts: 1) saying they should not get married and 2) saying they should not be allowed to get married. Your whole argument is based upon the 2) point and it is tied to morality and inciting whether a law should be implemented or not. No one is saying that you cannot voice your opinion; however, you can run around and tell others to live life according your standards or say they should be doing this - this is nothing but arrogance.

I am sorry, your argument against me does not work because we never say gays should not get married, we are simply relaying what the Creator, the Lord has told and legislated for us. Our morality is not based upon flawed human intellect, reasoning, corrupt principles and standards. It is based upon the principles and standards of the Creator. You have a problem with this, take up your beef with Him.

I don't believe anyone should slap you, though, for believing differently than I do.

already explained above

Do you think a little girl can truly comprehend the immensity of marriage and what it will mean for her? Do you think an 11 year old truly has any idea what kind of man will make the best husband for her?

straw man! I never spoke of any age so stop attacking me and putting words in my mouth. I brought up four conditions and no sane person would say that if those conditions are met then a person is incapable of handling the marriage, except those who have dead hearts and no common sense.

Secondly, who are you calling little, immature, incapable of deciding for herself? Do you think 14, 16, 18 years old can truly comprehend the immensity of marriage? That is why, in the history of mankind, the age haven never been the main deciding factor to decide when a person is ready for marriage. This never happened in the history of mankind until the last century.

Please don't tell me that most 11 year olds have this capacity. They don't.

never did, never implied, never used age argument - another straw man. Note the emphasized word, according to you, there are some exceptions; thus, we say to you so often that do not base your moral (in this issue upon age) and extreme views because there are always some exceptions to general rule.

Then you tell me what you define as "mentally able", "physically able", and "financially able". Who decides if an 11 year old is mentally able to get married? Who decides if someone is physically able? What, according to you, should be the criteria?

first, do not bring up the age again because your own countries do not agree with each other on this and you want us to follow them. According to one country, it is fine and perfect but according to another country it is crime and girl is a victim and the guy is a pedophile, thrown into jail.

1 - mentally ready - able to comprehend the responsibilities of marriage and mentally ready to carry them out. Able to consent to marriage and comprehend the purpose of marriage

2 - physically ready - able to carry out marriage obligations: looking after husband, generally no fear of harm being caused while physical intimacy with husband and giving birth.

3 - financially ready - the husband understands the financial burden and can feed and look after his family

as far who decides when someone is physically ready, then that is based upon what is commonly known: from person's physical growth and body. Even much older women like in 25+ have difficulties with child birth and physical intimacy; so the argument of age does not work here. In Islam we have the general rule, a husband cannot have intercourse with his wife if it causes her harm (physical and psychological) and vice versa - whether he/she is 11 years old or 40 years old. This is completely different than your laws based upon age.

Exactly how was I attacking you? The people in this article are not even Muslims.

I was not talking about people in the article. I was referring to the Muslims in this thread who were arguing against you.

[جوري]

My point was that this girl is too young to be having sex and too young to be getting married. You seem to be arguing that age doesn't matter.

That many pages down and you haven't understood a thing it is tedious and not worth it to engage you. I never argued that age doesn't matter, what I have argued is clearly elucidated for those who actually take the time to read before blurting out a barrage of ill informed comments and then into a million byway thereafter!

I think that if a 19 year old man is knowingly having sex with an 11 year old he should be punished. You think they should get married.

She withheld her age knowingly and he engaged in a relationship with her based on that.. who is to fault here??

I think that an 11 year old girl is not mature enough to understand the complexity of marriage, much less be able to make an intelligent, informed decision on what kind of husband or what man she will be spending the rest of her life with. You argue that since the man got her pregnant that by getting married it makes everything ok.

Where did I say that marriage will make it OK?
I have stated and explicitly that there is no going back, harm has been done and it is about rectifying it not making it worst.. really that too was difficult for you? You seem to have a reading and comprehension impediment that I suggest you seek medical attention for!

You say that I should not impose my standards upon others, I simply want to know what standard should be imposed, or should we follow the logic that noone should impose their standards on someone else.

What is standard in Spain is statutory rape in England.. at the end of the day, it comes down to individuals, not your insta morality squad's manifesto in their drive by shooting...

I ask this because if noone is allowed to impose their standard on someone else then it would seem that your stand would mean that you would allow anyone to have sex with children with no punishment.

except she wasn't a child (children don't have the ability to reproduce).. the standards for such are biological and physiological not state standards or titus' opinion!

Then you seemed to argue that once someone starts menstruating then it's ok to have sex with them (consensual sex with a 9 year old as long as they are menstruating?), then you say only if it is not precocious puberty.

Again, I have never argued that, It is your desire that everything be brought down to that overly simplistic style so that it is easy for you to digest and understand.. I repeatedly stated that I don't think it is ok for 11 year olds to have sex, but by same token you shouldn't be passing birth control pills to them either.. if you are allowing with one, then don't be a hypocrite about other things that are a natural progression of that action!

You seem to be all over the place and I simply want you to clarify your position on this subject which you seem so passionate about. Do you ever think it should be illegal for a 19 year old man to have sex with a child, and if so when would you draw the line? You obviously would make it less than 11, so please enlighten us.

Again, an excellent insight into your own approach and psyche.
I am not the one forcing self made conclusion and channeling them as if said by the other party, simply because you can't wrap your mind around what it is exactly that makes you a hypocrite..
I am not the one bringing 8 year olds into this, I am not the one bringing precocious puberty and early menses into this, I am not the one bringing how will you view me if I screwed around with this, I am not the one setting up some imaginary criteria in which to sweep an entire population of people under for no more than whim without backing or insight to social, economic or even scientific aspects of the situation !

I have been making my point quite clearly. Which part have you missed, and what exactly is your point?

Thanks for tickling my funny bone.. try harder with another member on another thread, perhaps this time around it will prove fruitful..

all the best

[GuestFellow]

Please don't tell me that most 11 year olds have this capacity. They don't.

Well it depends. In some poor countries kids have to grow up quickly in order to support their families financially. You'll be surprised how mature they are compared to kids in developed countries. For example in Pakistan I met a 12 year old kid who was working and was really mature and it surprised me. Whether or not he was capable of getting married, I'm not sure. Though I'm certain in some countries and societies, kids are more mature than other kids or maybe even teenagers.

In regards to what age limits someone can get married, I would say as long as the person has reached puberty, gave consent to the marriage and is mentally capable of taking these types of decision then I have nothing against the marriage.

[titus]

the people of knowledge say that a person can never win a debate against an ignorant, lacking knowledge, person. it is even worse when we got ignorant + morally bankrupt

What person starts a discussion by declaring the person who disagrees with them ignorant and morally bankrupt? Your air of self-importance is amusing.

You declare me morally bankrupt? Exactly what do you know about me that makes you eligible to make that statement? You assume way too much my friend. Don't let your obvious hatred of non-Muslims cloud your judgment.

Is it your argument that my belief that 11 year old girls should not be having sex is morally bankrupt? Please explain further.

it is hardly my fault if you cannot understand the language in the context.

Actually, yes it is your fault. I was not the only one that took it that way so obviously it would help if you made yourself a little more clearer.

I also ask that you speak "to" me and not down to me. I will treat you with respect if you treat me with respect. These derogatory and offensive comments serve us no purpose.

however, you can run around and tell others to live life according your standards or say they should be doing this - this is nothing but arrogance.

It is no more arrogant than telling people they should live life according to your standards, whether your standards come from the Quran, the Bible or Dianetics.

I am sorry, your argument against me does not work because we never say gays should not get married, we are simply relaying what the Creator

That's a cop out. You either say they should get married or they shouldn't get married. Why you believe that is up to you, and in your case you believe that because of your religion.

Secondly, who are you calling little, immature, incapable of deciding for herself?

An 11 year old girl who likens her child to a toy. An 11 year old whose grandparents are now going to raise her child because she is not capable of doing it herself.

first, do not bring up the age again because your own countries do not agree with each other on this and you want us to follow them.

My own countries? "Us" to follow them? I don't know why you keep wanting to make this a Muslim vs Non-Muslim issue. It isn't.

I only have one country, by the way.

And this does have to do with age. In fact this entire thread would not exist and this would not be news but for the age of the girl involved. Age is central to this entire topic so it would be ridiculous to ignore it.

I was not talking about people in the article. I was referring to the Muslims in this thread who were arguing against you.

I have not attacked anyone. I have disagreed with them. You and Gossamer are the ones calling me ignorant, hypocritical and morally bankrupt.

Where did I say that marriage will make it OK?

When you said "it has happened and they tried to rectify their mistake by having a family unit!.". Aren't you saying that the marriage would rectify the situation?

You also said "the logical approach is to fix the situation, not make it worst (sic)". Were you not referring to the man staying out of jail marrying the girl as fixing the situation?

She withheld her age knowingly and he engaged in a relationship with her based on that.. who is to fault here??

Her, certainly, in the beginning. Are you claiming, though, that he stopped having sex with her after he found out her age? Did you think they would stop having sex after they got married?

Again, I have never argued that, It is your desire that everything be brought down to that overly simplistic style so that it is easy for you to digest and understand.. I repeatedly stated that I don't think it is ok for 11 year olds to have sex, but by same token you shouldn't be passing birth control pills to them either.. if you are allowing with one, then don't be a hypocrite about other things that are a natural progression of that action!

Who brought up passing birth control to them? I certainly don't agree with that either.

I just want you to clarify your position because you keep tiptoing around actually making a point.

Do you think a 19 year old man who knowingly has sex with an 11 year old girl should be punished by law or not? It's a simple question. You know my thoughts.

If you answer no, then the follow up question would be what criteria would you use to determine whether it was legal or not?

[titus]

For example in Pakistan I met a 12 year old kid who was working and was really mature and it surprised me. Whether or not he was capable of getting married, I'm not sure. Though I'm certain in some countries and societies, kids are more mature than other kids or maybe even teenagers.

I can see that. Some kids are forced to mature faster than others, which is a shame.

[GuestFellow]

I can see that. Some kids are forced to mature faster than others, which is a shame.

Or maybe not. They're mature, respectful and hardworking...just what we need here in the UK.

[جوري]

I have not attacked anyone. I have disagreed with them. You and Gossamer are the ones calling me ignorant, hypocritical and morally bankrupt.

I rather call you an aimless pedant with nothing of substance to impart!

When you said "it has happened and they tried to rectify their mistake by having a family unit!.". Aren't you saying that the marriage would rectify the situation?

How does trying to rectify the situation with the help of their family translate to it is OK for 11 year olds to have sex, and children out of wedlock?

You also said "the logical approach is to fix the situation, not make it worst (sic)". Were you not referring to the man staying out of jail marrying the girl as fixing the situation?

Indeed it is the lesser of two evils! I have already pointed the ramifications of his jail term in one of the posts above and let me re-quote myself:

Yeah, you think she has no clue.. but the facts are already on the table.. an infant will not go back to being a zygote and imprisoning her would be husband will in fact exacerbate an already bad situation... This is no longer a matter of prevention (as stated previously and twice, I don't think people should be married or having kids at 11) yet they have and they do.. the logical approach is to fix the situation, not make it worst.. one day this infant will grow up thinking he is a b astard child, and that his father is a rapist, even though he isn't, and that his mother is a w hore..
if they are too young to think that such definitions and societal views of them exist, then by the same token they are too young to understand imprisonment and being made into pariahs for what came naturally to them!

Her, certainly, in the beginning. Are you claiming, though, that he stopped having sex with her after he found out her age? Did you think they would stop having sex after they got married?

This statement is complete nonsensical jumble of words.. why don't you sit down with yourself and think of what you want to write, before putting compound words together that have no relevance or sense?

Who brought up passing birth control to them? I certainly don't agree with that either.

there you go:

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=140910

11 year olds with birth controls..
what is the expectation exactly when you pass out BCP's to middle school children? that they'll use it to sprinkle ice cream? or that they intend to prevent pregnancy in a population they already know is engaging in sex..

Do you see any double standards or just wish to derange this into another 76 page worth of your nonsense simply because you can't admit that you don't have a point that makes such 'social mores' acceptable anymore so than being wed to the man who fathered your child?

I just want you to clarify your position because you keep tiptoing around actually making a point.

I am not tip toeing at all, If my point could slap you in the face any harder you'd have sprouted a third cheek by now!

Do you think a 19 year old man who knowingly has sex with an 11 year old girl should be punished by law or not? It's a simple question. You know my thoughts.

It depends on the individual situation and I believe I have written as much previously!

If you answer no, then the follow up question would be what criteria would you use to determine whether it was legal or not?

I didn't answer no or yes.. if you are living in a country where the life expectancy is 44 or in a country where it is normal for folks to have children in that age bracket, then I think it is out of your jurisdiction to dictate prison terms or even judgment on the matter!


all the best

[titus]

This statement is complete nonsensical jumble of words.

Only to those who have reading comprehension issues.

11 year olds with birth controls..
what is the expectation exactly when you pass out BCP's to middle school children?

Why are you trying to change the subject? I have not discussed birth control for children nor do I endorse it.

if you are living in a country where the life expectancy is 44 or in a country where it is normal for folks to have children in that age bracket, then I think it is out of your jurisdiction to dictate prison terms or even judgment on the matter!

I don't recall attempting to dictate their prison terms, although I certainly do believe that having sex with a 9 year old should be punished. You, on the other hand, seem to imply that if a country allowed men to have sex with 8 year olds then noone from another country should voice their opinion.

Interesting.

[جوري]

Only to those who have reading comprehension issues.

Didn't I accuse you of that a few posts ago and deservedly so? have you run out of things to write?

Why are you trying to change the subject? I have not discussed birth control for children nor do I endorse it.

It is very much a part of the topic.. you can't have one without the other.. anymore than you can have a child without two partners!

I don't recall attempting to dictate their prison terms, although I certainly do believe that having sex with a 9 year old should be punished. You, on the other hand, seem to imply that if a country allowed men to have sex with 8 year olds then noone from another country should voice their opinion.

Interesting.

your feelings are as inconsequential as are your opinions.
In some ancient religions folks hung their dead out in the towers for vultures to feed on, you can certainly have an opinion, it means nothing in the scheme of things-- the sooner you accept that, the faster we'll all be able to move on!

all the best

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

This is ridiculous.You cant put a label/restriction on age nor the other persons level of mentality!

Like Gossamer said, try and rectify the situation, not make it WORSE. Which it seems people r awesome at doing...

[titus]

your feelings are as inconsequential as are your opinions.
In some ancient religions folks hung their dead out in the towers for vultures to feed on, you can certainly have an opinion, it means nothing in the scheme of things-- the sooner you accept that, the faster we'll all be able to move on!

True, but then your opinion means the same as mine in the grand scheme of things. That never seems to stop you from voicing it.

If people voicing their opinions upsets you then I highly recommend avoiding internet message boards.

try and rectify the situation, not make it WORSE.

We shall agree to disagree on whether these two people getting married rectified any situation. I think the girl is too young to be raising this child, and this man obviously has difficulty making good decisions. I don't see how them getting married is going to help anything. It might even encourage them to have another child when she is 12.

[جوري]

True, but then your opinion means the same as mine in the grand scheme of things. That never seems to stop you from voicing it.

If people voicing their opinions upsets you then I highly recommend avoiding internet message boards.

.

You seem to know so much about my affect and mood as you do the feelings and conditions of folks the world over.. that is impressive man!

indeed I agree with your first comment though please allow me to add, opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one, there is no reason to actually be one-- therein indeed is where your problem lies, the lowest common denominator, you can't allow folks to voice their opinion without interpreting falsely or recasting it to fit into your personal agenda, while broadcasting your clangorous need for self-righteous humbug!

all the best

[titus]

there is no reason to actually be one

True. The real holes are the ones that feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees with them and make personal attacks instead of actually discussing the issue at hand. Some people have a real hard time differentiating between attacking an argument and attacking the person making the argument.

[جوري]

True. The real holes are the ones that feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees with them and make personal attacks instead of actually discussing the issue at hand. Some people have a real hard time differentiating between attacking an argument and attacking the person making the argument.

Indeed.. the sooner you realize it, the sooner you can work on it...

best of luck!

cheers

[titus]

who the hell are you

just in case you wish to loan your drivel some credence

do yourself a great service and just take a hike, you are completely inept at handling the topic!

I think this is an excellent perceptiveness into your own shortcomings and psyche!

You seem to have a reading and comprehension impediment that I suggest you seek medical attention for!

I rather call you an aimless pedant with nothing of substance to impart!

your feelings are as inconsequential as are your opinions.

I am the one that needs to work on it? Funny stuff.

[جوري]

I think you are making things up

You are the one bringing that baggage into this discussion, not me.

You have way too much anger inside you.

You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth here, yet call me the hypocrite.

then who gave you the right to butt into other people's private affairs and speak on behalf of people who don't agree with you?

Where exactly do you draw the line? Or do you draw the line?

You are just a study in contradictions.

accentuate your inability to make an intelligent response on the subject.

Nice attempt to turn the tables, although failed.

Your air of self-importance is amusing.

Don't let your obvious hatred of non-Muslims cloud your judgment.

Only to those who have reading comprehension issues.

True. The real holes are the ones that feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees

I am the one that needs to work on it? Funny stuff.

Ain't it though? really glad you agree yet again!

You need some me time..



all the best

[OurIslamic]

Hey guys, lets keep the heated arguments to a minimum... :(

[جوري]

Hey guys, lets keep the heated arguments to a minimum... :(

I am as cool as a cucumber in fact I am having a melange of cukes and apples as I write this...

:wa:

[OurIslamic]

I am as cool as a cucumber in fact I am having a melange of cukes and apples as I write this...

:wa:

That's great then :D

I applaud you sister.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

EDIT: never mind...my bad...

[Muslimlearner]

What a news ,is not the first..:nervous:

[adriatic82]

evryone is different but i think at 11 ur still a child ,it happens in ex communism countries ,when i was 14 this girl in my class had a finance and no one made a big deal ,keep thinking now what the hell,

[Muslimlearner]

evryone is different but i think at 11 ur still a child ,it happens in ex communism countries ,when i was 14 this girl in my class had a finance and no one made a big deal ,keep thinking now what the hell,

You think is a child,but she consieve,so she wasn't ;D
playng with toys,boys,babies...+o(

no big deal 10 year-old with bf like that is in Bulgaria :hiding:

[titus]

i believe that people who passively insult a dead man to cover up their hatred/get their point across, affirm for themselves cowardice and idiocy!

What dead man?

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^my apologies, i misunderstood...

[MSalman]

What person starts a discussion by declaring the person who disagrees with them ignorant and morally bankrupt? Your air of self-importance is amusing.

nice try but not funny. I never said I do not lack knowledge. But yes, we do have higher moral ground because our morality is based upon the legislation and standards of the Creator unlike you.

secondly, it tells the story, when you fail to understand people's speech and unable to recognize your deficiency of lacking in knowledge or more like not admitting the fact.

You declare me morally bankrupt? Exactly what do you know about me that makes you eligible to make that statement? You assume way too much my friend. Don't let your obvious hatred of non-Muslims cloud your judgment.

the fact that you operate on the principle and standard that there is not such thing as absolute truth, and you are capable of deriving morality using your own reasoning and intellect tells the story of where you stand. I tried to convey this point but....

Is it your argument that my belief that 11 year old girls should not be having sex is morally bankrupt? Please explain further.

no, and rest explained above. Funny thing is that you are implying that I am immoral if i say it is ok for 11 years old girl to get married but when I say the same thing to you due to your principles, you are complaining. lol

Actually, yes it is your fault. I was not the only one that took it that way so obviously it would help if you made yourself a little more clearer.

if you are not sure what the person meant then you ask and not jump to conclusions

I also ask that you speak "to" me and not down to me. I will treat you with respect if you treat me with respect. These derogatory and offensive comments serve us no purpose.

no one is looking down on you or trying to degrade you. We are simply discussing problems in your reasoning and doctrine and bringing out the facts. If you want to take them as disrespect then be my guest.

Secondly, first give respect to your Lord by obeying Him and then we can talk about giving respect to each other. Talk about hypocrisy: "how dare you not to respect me and give me my rights?" but when it comes to giving rights to Allah, you turn the other way.

It is no more arrogant than telling people they should live life according to your standards, whether your standards come from the Quran, the Bible or Dianetics.

do not mix up things please. We are not arrogant because we do not shove it down your throat neither we say these are our standards which we reached using our limited human capabilities. We simply relay what your Lord has revealed and legislated for everyone. Whether people want to follow it or not is their choice. There is a huge difference between what you are saying and what we are saying. Please try to grasp the difference here.

That's a cop out. You either say they should get married or they shouldn't get married. Why you believe that is up to you, and in your case you believe that because of your religion.

we relay what the Lord had legislated for us and He never mentioned any age rule which your people invented recently. Heck, even your ancestors did not believe in these laws which you have invented recently. Why: because age was never the deciding factor to recognize maturity and when someone is ready for marriage. Because this capability is different among people and even people 20+ years old not ready; however, your law recognize them as such.

Funny thing is that you did not even bother responding to rest of my arguments, which clearly pointed out the flaws in your arguments and unfair straw man attacks!

My own countries? "Us" to follow them? I don't know why you keep wanting to make this a Muslim vs Non-Muslim issue. It isn't.

I only have one country, by the way.

when I say your countries, I am not talking about Muslims vs non-Muslim. I am talking about every country which operates on the doctrine that they are capable of deriving the laws using their limited intellect. It covers every secular country including some Muslim countries, who have adopted secularism in their jurisdiction due to corrupt leaders.

So which countries' laws one should follow in this issue? Let's say, I live a a country which says it is ok for 13/14 years old to get married and I submitting to that law, then am I immoral and wrong? Why? By which standard would you reach that conclusion? If you say I am moral but then if I moved your country and laws of marriage is 18 years of age then I would be thrown in jail.

Do you understand the dilemma here by relying on age for marriage!?

And this does have to do with age. In fact this entire thread would not exist and this would not be news but for the age of the girl involved. Age is central to this entire topic so it would be ridiculous to ignore it.

do not misquote me by talking it out of context. I was not talking about her specifically as my comment was general. In fact, your own comment to which I responded to was general as you said:

Then you tell me what you define as "mentally able", "physically able", and "financially able". Who decides if an 11 year old is mentally able to get married? Who decides if someone is physically able? What, according to you, should be the criteria?

So in this entire context, I was telling you that my argument in support of marriage is not based upon age, as you seem to keep bringing them up again and again; therefore, do not bring it up again and attack me with a straw man.

In fact, in this whole debate, I never said 11 years old or 9 years old or 30 years old is ready for marriage. Rather what I have been saying is that IF THREE conditions are met then they should be allowed to get married and no one should have a problem with this because this always have been the criteria and NOT AGE. In addition, this is what Lord of the worlds have legislated.

This is my last response and it seems you have trouble understanding people's speech. So you should work on that instead of arguing back and forth with no goal in mind.

[sahena12]

i think any man who has sex with an eleven year old or just fancies them is a freak and a peadophile, and they wonder why there are so many sex offenders around. I think men that generally fancy any young girl who there way older than are sex manics. sorry boys buts thats the truth and you cant dress it up.

[جوري]

here they are by the way..

11 Year old Bulgarian Girl gives birth on her wedding day.

London, Nov 1 (ANI): An eleven-year-old Bulgarian schoolgirl became mother of a baby girl on the day of her wedding.

[Beardo]

^ she definitely doesn't look eleven.

It is not uncommon for Roma girls to fall pregnant in their teens. Sliven is the underage mums capital of Europe with 177 cases last year. (ANI)

If it's the norm, than what can you say? We find it weird that Koreans eat dogs. We find it weird that another nationality eats ants as popcorn. At the end of the day, it's their culture.

[cat eyes]

my gosh she looks older then me lol

[جوري]

^ she definitely doesn't look eleven.


It is not uncommon for Roma girls to fall pregnant in their teens. Sliven is the underage mums capital of Europe with 177 cases last year. (ANI)

I hope that, that isn't the case for the Muslim Bulgarians..

http://www.jatsbulgaria.org/show.php...ue_id=3&head=5

May Allah swt look after them, make them steadfast on Islam, and save them from the ills of sin..They look like angels...

:wa:

[Muslimlearner]

I hope that, that isn't the case for the Muslim Bulgarians..

no its not,alhamdulillah!

Amin to ur du'a!

[sahena12]

Well shes wearing makeup and doesnt look happy.

[nocturnal]

Im not a legal or medical expert, but i really don't think that the consent of an 11 year old girl to having sex with a 19 year old is a tenable arguement to state that it doesn't count as paedophilia.

I don't know how anyone can posit that an 11 year old is capable of sound judgment with regard to such as issues as intercourse, pregnancy, STDs, marriage, parenthood, etc. To try and buttress that arguement by saying "oh well, that's their culture" is just not defensible. We could apply that arguement to some of the most savage and wildely reviled practices in the world today to legitimise them, but that wouldn't make them morally acceptable.

[GuestFellow]

Well shes wearing makeup and doesnt look happy.

Most brides look unhappy. I rarely seen a bride jumping up and down and laughing. XD

Im not a legal or medical expert, but i really don't think that the consent of an 11 year old girl to having sex with a 19 year old is a tenable arguement to state that it doesn't count as paedophilia.

Well it does depend how you use the term paedophilia. Scientifically there are many criteria to be met. The requirement for psychological illnesses changes over time. There is a range of definitions...

[جوري]

Most brides look unhappy. I rarely seen a bride jumping up and down and laughing. XD
..

Rather, she was going into labor on her wedding day, I can't imagine that being something to smile about..

p.s pedophiles don't get married.. it isn't about commitment, it is about perverse pleasure with pre-pubertal girls.. the guy in the pic looks like a dolt!

[OurIslamic]

That link for the source doesn't work :hmm:Benefits and toy for the girl and jail for the boy? :hmm:
Here's more:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl....html?ITO=1490
[/LEFT]

Wow, she looks much older than 11 (I have an 11 year old sibling).

the 19-year-old father is facing six years in jail for having sex with a minor

^^^ I don't know if that's good or not :(

[جوري]

It might seem really odd to us but people really bloom differently around the world.. you don't need to be a fossil to be married I think they might and should try to make it work not everyone is cut out to find the effects of ascorbic acid in patients with Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease type 1A, some people are happy being shepherds and farmers and there is really nothing wrong with that .. I feel kind of sorry for them but they seem hopeful and happy.. I really hope they don't put that dolt of a guy in jail...

“We know that having a baby is a big responsibility. My wife is young but I will make sure that I look after both of them if the law allows me,” Jeliazko said.

He dreams of giving his daughter a better future.

“I am going to work hard and make sure we all have a good life,” he said.

He added: “I want Violeta to be educated, to be able to read and write. She was born famous and maybe she will stay famous like becoming a doctor who invents brilliant medicine or saves lives.

“Whatever she does I will be proud of her - she is my little girl.”

It is not uncommon for Roma girls to fall pregnant in their teens. Sliven is the underage mums capital of Europe with 177 cases last year. (ANI)

[OurIslamic]

Well, he's receiving 6 years in prison

[titus]

no one is looking down on you or trying to degrade you. We are simply discussing problems in your reasoning and doctrine and bringing out the facts. If you want to take them as disrespect then be my guest.

Then I ask that you be more careful of the language you use. When you use phrases such as "morally bankrupt" and "ignorant kuffaar" and say things such as "Even ta'zeer punishment is not enough to give them what they deserve for their crimes against Allah and rest of humanity." regarding those you disagree with it is most definitely degrading and implies that you believe yourself superior.

Funny thing is that you are implying that I am immoral if i say it is ok for 11 years old girl to get married but when I say the same thing to you due to your principles, you are complaining. lol

No, I am saying that I disagree with you on this subject, and that we may have differing morals about this. That is a far cry from me saying that you are an immoral person.

Secondly, first give respect to your Lord by obeying Him and then we can talk about giving respect to each other. Talk about hypocrisy: "how dare you not to respect me and give me my rights?" but when it comes to giving rights to Allah, you turn the other way.

Are you saying that if I am not a Muslim that you will not even discuss respecting each other?

Also, I never said anything like "how dare you not to respect me and give me my rights?". You are creating a straw man argument.

So which countries' laws one should follow in this issue? Let's say, I live a a country which says it is ok for 13/14 years old to get married and I submitting to that law, then am I immoral and wrong? Why? By which standard would you reach that conclusion? If you say I am moral but then if I moved your country and laws of marriage is 18 years of age then I would be thrown in jail.

You should follow the laws of whichever country you live in. In Bulgaria the age of consent is 14 and that is why this man is going to jail.

Then you tell me what you define as "mentally able", "physically able", and "financially able". Who decides if an 11 year old is mentally able to get married? Who decides if someone is physically able? What, according to you, should be the criteria?

So in this entire context, I was telling you that my argument in support of marriage is not based upon age, as you seem to keep bringing them up again and again; therefore, do not bring it up again and attack me with a straw man.

If you read my quote again you will see that I did not attack you with age. I asked you who would decide if an 11 year old was able to get married. Notice that I did not ask you which age they should be allowed to get married, but what the criteria should be and who would you have make that decision.

My quote, in fact, never asks you to come up with an age that you think would be appropriate, but specifically asks for the other factors. The only straw man, here, is the one you created.

Do you think an 11 year old truly has any idea what kind of man will make the best husband for her?

straw man! I never spoke of any age so stop attacking me and putting words in my mouth.

At this point I ask that you look up the definition of "Straw man argument". I simply asked a question. I did not put any words in your mouth, yet you keep saying "straw man!".

I understand your belief that it should not be based on age. You have explained it decently. You keep leaving out details though. I asked you who would decide if a girl (or boy) was ready for marriage and you sidestepped it. You answered that it would be based on "what is commonly known". I want to know, specifically, who would make this decision?

Would it be the parents? The government? Who?

This is my last response and it seems you have trouble understanding people's speech. So you should work on that instead of arguing back and forth with no goal in mind.

Fair enough. Will you stop responding to your Muslim sister Cat Eyes also, since she also had trouble understanding your original post the same way that I did?

[meer5sd]

she looks older than 11

[sahena12]

Most brides look unhappy. I rarely seen a bride jumping up and down and laughing. XD



Well it does depend how you use the term paedophilia. Scientifically there are many criteria to be met. The requirement for psychological illnesses changes over time. There is a range of definitions...

well guestfellow it takes a certain kind of guy to make a bride jump for joy. Its usually when she has a brain to think for herself, we dont live in caveman times now to choose our own fate without people lingering over us. Women are more powerful then men, and alot of men are ruled by lust.

But there not real men cos you can find alot of purvs around, a proper man that treats a woman with respect and marries her when shes old enough to think for herself is hard to find. An theres no love when you just marry a woman cos its the way of doing things, an certainly no love when shes just a kid, cos she will never no what loving somone with her own will is. A true happy bride is not a kid or a teenager or some woman that is weak and just wants to get married for marrying sake and pop out babies. whoo hoo big deal!

[Karl]

The only problem in this case is Zina, the couple should have got married first. If anyone is to blame it's the young woman for not staying chaste before marriage. It takes two to tango but only one gets the bun in the oven, so a female must protect her chastity. At the end of the day it's a domestic issue and no bodys' business. All this talk about "paedophilia" is nothing but kafir nonsense. It's a new secular western morality that I will never understand.

[Sameera]

Aisha's age was neither 9 nor 11. Aisha (ra) was between 18-20 years old when she married the Prophet (pbuh).

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate....

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them....

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage....

http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm

http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-005.htm

http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-006.htm

[Sameera]

^ The above excerpts were written by

Moiz Amjad
January 8, 2002

Al Mawrid Institute


http://www.al-mawrid.org/pages/resea...?research_id=1

http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...ussion&did=307

http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...estion&qid=375

http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...ussion&did=293

[Maryan0]

Aisha's age was neither 9 nor 11. Aisha (ra) was between 18-20 years old when she married the Prophet (pbuh).

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate....

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them....

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage....

http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm

http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-005.htm

http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-006.htm

I've actually read this before it seems strange that if this was the case that the majority of scholars are not of this opinion.
salam

[Karl]

Aisha's age was neither 9 nor 11. Aisha (ra) was between 18-20 years old when she married the Prophet (pbuh)....

Umm, how's all this pertinent to the actual thread? This is about a young Bulgarian woman, not Aisha (ra). Furthermore, now that you've tried to resurface this reformist nonsense, I simply don't buy into this modern claim that Aisha was 18 or 20 at the time of her marriage. It's quite obviously clear that it's only just another futile attempt by some reformist Muslims to try and appease the Western commie kafirs. Otherwise, why would you reformists go out of your way to try and make these claims in the first place? What does it matter ANYWAY how old Aisha was when she married? Does it really matter either way if she was 6, 18 or 80? Who CARES? I certainly don't! As far as I'm concerned the earlier the marriage the BETTER. Early marriage better ensures the avoidance of zina, that's why my own daughter married before she was 9.

[Sameera]

Salams Lisa,

If you read deeper into Islam, esp the links I posted you may understand why.

Here's another clue:

http://www.salaam.co.uk/knowledge/ruqaiyyah4.php

"Assumptions that women’s evidence would be unreliable because of the inferiority of women in intellectual capacity, memory, or character stem from a patriarchal perspective in a male-dominated community."

The prophet came to teach Islam to chavanist men who did not treat women with respect in those days, let's not forget the fact, how these men prevented women form going into the mosque even during the presence of the prophet and him telling them to allow women to enter....they still do it now, their mentality hasn't changed much during the centuries. There is a gain to have younger women marry and keep them ignorant of Islam (that is why there's few female scholars these days), it's all to do with men's power and subjugation over women, which the Prophet came to rid, through preaching Islam.

"The very first rule of judging whether or not a hadith is reliable is to test it against the teaching and spirit of the Qur’an. Any hadith that disagrees with the Qur’an cannot possibly be genuine. " Tim Winter aka Abdul Hakim Murad.

Ws

[Sameera]

Karl,

Salams,

RE:

Umm, how's all this pertinent to the actual thread? This is about a young Bulgarian woman, not Aisha (ra).

I don't understand why it is so important for you that I must only think your way and not be free to post something I think is relevant to this thread. Most of the time when I see topics like these it's often to do with Aisha's age. I didn't have the time to read every single post. I now ask you, do you really think I have committed a crime or a sin, to post Islamic knowledge on the matter? Are you the moderator here to rebuke me on what I post? After all, what is there to lose by reading and learning?

Furthermore, now that you've tried to resurface this reformist nonsense,

Can you please explain what do you mean by your insutlts and personal attacks on me? I do not even know who you are or what you mean. I do not know what "resurface" the "reformist nonsense" that I have "resurfaced". I am a new member here and joined only yesterday.

[quote]I simply don't buy into this modern claim that Aisha was 18 or 20 t the time of her marriage. It's quite obviously clear that it's only just another futile attempt by some reformist Muslims to try and appease the Western commie kafirs[/ote]

I am not forcing on you any opinion at all.

I have posted this to clear any misunderstanding on this issue and I did it only for the sake of Allah. No scholar on earth is infallible, none of us are perfect but we are all on a journey to seek the truth through searching for the correct evidence and knowledge which is a duty incumbant on us all.

Otherwise, why would you reformists

Can you please prove that I am not a Muslim, but a "reformist" pleasing the disbelievers as you stated? La ilaha illallah!

What does it matter ANYWAY how old Aisha was when she married? Does it really matter either way if she was 6, 18 or 80? Who CARES?

What is wrong with seeking knowledge? What is wrong about knowing the history of our prophet and about the mother of believers or to prove the truth? Does everything on this forum must be according to your agreement before anyone posts anything remotely related to specific topic?

As far as I'm concerned the earlier the marriage the BETTER. Early marriage better ensures the avoidance of zina,

The new education system teaches children sex and that is why young girls are doing this at an earlier age because their innocence is taken away and they are sexually abused as children in the state system. However in my days when I was a kid, I didn't know what the word meant, I was half the size of any man, at 11, so can you please tell me how that would have worked if I got married at that age when I wasn't even in my menses?

Do a google search and have a good look at the size, height and maturity of 9-11 year girls. Their bodies and brains haven't even matured yet and are at the *earliest* stages of puberty, not adulthood. If you had a daughter of that age you would quite understand why I have posted this.

Allah swt asks us not to dispute unnecessarily in chapter 8 of the Quran and to try and unite as brothers and sitters on one faith. You may have different views but that doesn't mean that only you are right and the other is not. It depends on our intentions and faith is part of sincerity. Passing negative judgments or giving out personal attacks is not from Islam, but from the failings of our egos. Defaming other pious Muslims was not the way of the Prophet nor is it a classical way of disagreeing with anyone (unless of course a chauvinist is attacking a female).

Wasalam

[Ummu Sufyaan]

The only problem in this case is Zina, the couple should have got married first. If anyone is to blame it's the young woman for not staying chaste before marriage. It takes two to tango but only one gets the bun in the oven, so a female must protect her chastity.

and the man should just go and have a part-ay as if it isnt any of his business. what? it takes tu-tu tango? it sure does!

[titus]

At the end of the day it's a domestic issue and no bodys' business.

The age of consent in Bulgaria is 14. The man had sex, knowingly, with an 11 year old (maybe not the first time, but the ones after). This was no longer a domestic issue once he broke the law.

Yes, you may believe Islam may allow such marriages, but that does not mean it requires them. In such cases Muslims, and everyone else, should still obey the laws of the land they live in. This man did not.

What this man should have done, morally and legally, is to provide for this girl and their child. The relationship should remain platonic. Once she reached the age of legal consent then they would have the option of marriage, and what goes along with it, if they so chose.

[titus]

and the man should just go and have a part-ay as if it isnt any of his business. what? it takes tu-tu tango? it sure does!

Yup. I have never seen a coin with just one side.

[Karl]

Well I thank Allah that there was an entry in the English language for "imposter", lol.

The new education system teaches children sex and that is why young girls are doing this at an earlier age because their innocence is taken away and they are sexually abused as children in the state system

You employ very subjective western rhetoric...more like something from psychology 101 than pages from the holy quran.I know scores of Muslims and they simply don't speak with your unmistakably pc parlance. Sorry but you have shown yourself up. Your statements are replete with politically correct mannered presumptions and ageist subjectivity. Real Muslims get their guidance from the quran but you sound as though you are being fed your guidance through somewhere ELSE, sprinkled over with a few Arabic words. Your very use of the loaded pc catch cries such as "male chauvinist", "sexual abuse", and the Victorian invented concept of "childhood innocence" etc has "KAFIR" written all over it. Do you realise this?

The antonym of innocence is guilt. Your use of the word "innocence" is an incorrect application. A person's "innocence" can NOT be "taken away" by someone else! This is because an ACTION of a person themself is the only thing that can turn their own innocence of a crime into guilty of a crime. One has to be GUILTY of a CRIME or be hurtful or evil before they lose their "innocence"! It's erroneous to think someone ELSE'S actions can turn another's innocence into guilt. Do you see what I'm trying to get at here? The misnomer "innocence" has wrongly supplanted "ignorance" since Victorian times when the kafir invented the artificial concept of "childhood innocence", one of the biggest frauds ever to be conceived. The two words ignorance and innocence are NOT synonymous with each other, they are quite different!

However in my days when I was a kid, I didn't know what the word meant, I was half the size of any man, at 11

That's what me and my friends would laughingly name a "pixie" or "elf". If you were only a mere half the size of a man at age 11 then the sight of that would freak me out more than a circus act. You certainly are a different species of hominid than I! I had one book some time back saying that the average THREE year old is meant to be at 50% of their full adult height, and a 10 year old should be from nose to eye height of their adult size. The kind of 11 year old you describe sounds more like the size of one of my FOUR year olds. An 11 year old of my species is on the cusp of adulthood and we are fully fledged size by 12. I don't consider it a surprise at all that an old German maxim states that "adulthood begins at 12".

...so can you please tell me how that would have worked if I got married at that age when I wasn't even in my menses?

LOL. Marriage does NOT automatically mean that it will be CONSUMMATED immediately! My daughter married way before puberty but we were all of the common sense understanding that her husband would not consummate the marriage with her until she attained menses! Only erotic love play between married couple would be a thing to be indulged in, but my son in law knew quite well that it is only wise to actually consummate the marriage at the attainment of my daughter's menses. Plain and SIMPLE.

Do a google search and have a good look at the size, height and maturity of 9-11 year girls. Their bodies and brains haven't even matured yet and are at the *earliest* stages of puberty, not adulthood

Oh dear me. Do you just listen to EVERYTHING kafir propagates? There's a thing called "propaganda", so it's also great that's ANOTHER entry in the English language I'm thankful is there! I take all such "statistics" and "surveys" with a grain of salt because I know that they are often conducted under the auspices of Western government departments or agencies with political or social agendas.

What is wrong about knowing the history of our prophet and about the mother of believers or to prove the truth?

Nothing wrong with it at all, but something's wrong when someone obsessively refers to Aisha's marriage, especially those who attempt to bump her age up into the rafters. Every time someone tries this I smell BS, I smell infiltration, I smell surreptitious AGENDAS.

If you had a daughter of that age you would quite understand why I have posted this

That's another one of your audacious suppositions! I can categorically reply you a capital NO to that. As I said before that age for my race is on the cusp of adulthood. I was like that, and so are my sons and daughters. If my 9 year old daughter was only half the size of a man I'd think she'd been either sprayed with devastating insecticide or swapped at the hospital at birth, one of the two. :giggling:

Defaming other pious Muslims was not the way of the Prophet

lol

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Thread locked.

Try to keep on topic next time folks.