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Esther462
11-07-2009, 09:41 PM
Please move this if this is in the wrong place.
I live in a area where halal meat isn't easy to get hold of. Where there is some, it's quite far away from my house, I have to order it off the internet and it's quite exspensive. I'm on a limeted income so money is quite short each week.
I eat none halal meat but don't eat pork and I always cheak the packets of everything I buy to make sure it dosen't have pork in it.
I am I doing the right thing by eatting none halal meat?
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Caller الداعي
11-07-2009, 10:04 PM
mashallah sis may Allah make it easy for u and bless ur wealth.
U will have to eat halal meat and r not allowed to eat meat not slaughtered the islamic way.
If it is difficult to find halal meat try to look for muslims in the area they mite knw wher to get cheaper halal meat if worse comes to worse u can eat kosher ( jewish slaughtered) meat
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Ansariyah
11-07-2009, 10:06 PM
:sl:

So u basically eat meat from ur local grocery store that isnt Halal which means its Haram. Sis if I were u I wud live on Fish/sea food (not to mention its so good for u) until I move to a Muslim community or find other ways I can get to halal meat.

In cases where u have absolutely nothin else to eat haram meat becomes permissable but this doesnt apply in ur case as im sure u can find food n u aren't starvin.

Just cause the meat isnt port dont mean its halal..This includes all meats chicken, beef etc (excl Fish). The only thing that makes meat Halal is wen its actually slaughtered Islamically other than that its Haram n Najis (impure).

May ALlah guide u always ameen.
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Hamza Asadullah
11-07-2009, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Esther462
Please move this if this is in the wrong place.
I live in a area where halal meat isn't easy to get hold of. Where there is some, it's quite far away from my house, I have to order it off the internet and it's quite exspensive. I'm on a limeted income so money is quite short each week.
I eat none halal meat but don't eat pork and I always cheak the packets of everything I buy to make sure it dosen't have pork in it.
I am I doing the right thing by eatting none halal meat?
Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb my sister jazakallah for wanting to get clarification on your question.

In regards to your question on whether or not it is permissable or not for you to eat the meat of non Muslims because there is no halal meat readily available in your area then there answer is that you CANNOT eat meat slaughtered by non Muslims that includes kosher meat.

The only circumstances where it is permissable for you to eat meat is if there is no other food available and you fear for your life. That clearly is not the case therefore in your situation it is not permissable for you to eat non halal meat.

What i would suggest is that everytime you make a trip to get halal meat then you should buy the meat in bulk and freeze it straight away. That way you can take out the meat you want to consume from the freezer instead of having to buy little amounts every single time. Meat that is frozen immediatley lasts a very long time even upto a year or more.

So buy it in bulk and freeze it in quantities that you will use and inshallah your problem will be solved.
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Woodrow
11-08-2009, 12:23 AM
Sister I relate and sympathize with you I also live in an area where Halal meat is virtually non-existant. Also buying in bulk is not an option. So I live on essentially a vegetarian and fish diet and enjoy the halal meat on the few occasions I can get it. The closest place for me to get it is in Fargo 200+ miles distance and the small halal market seldom has over 5 pounds of meat for sale.

Fortunately fish is abundant here and the local store does carry tofu. I found I can substitute tofu for nearly any meat and with a good variety of spices it does taste like and has similar texture as many meats.
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AhmadibnNasroon
11-08-2009, 01:54 AM
This is a controversial topic that has a lot of detail and differing amongst ahlul 3ilm. The meat of the Jews and Christians is permissible however the circumstances in the west vary from place to place so I suggest you get a hold of a trustworthy scholar and consult this matter with him.
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zakirs
11-08-2009, 08:08 AM
Why can't you buy live animal ( a chicken) , if you have a man at your house (father or bro) may be he can zubha it for you
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Esther462
11-08-2009, 02:15 PM
Thanks for the advice.

zakirs regarding ur quote,
format_quote Originally Posted by zakirs
Why can't you buy live animal ( a chicken) , if you have a man at your house (father or bro) may be he can zubha it for you
I live on my own in a town and brittan has laws on kill animals for food as they have to be kill in specile building with striked hygen regs.
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cat eyes
11-08-2009, 04:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Esther462
Thanks for the advice.

zakirs regarding ur quote,


I live on my own in a town and brittan has laws on kill animals for food as they have to be kill in specile building with striked hygen regs.
i would have thought britian would have been full of halal meat shops or i take it you live in the mountains?;D this is why i prefer to live in the city everything is at your doorstep Alhamdulilah
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Ayesha_Hanif
11-08-2009, 04:55 PM
i dont no bout any other country but in the uk, u can buy something called quorn. it is artificial meat. and u can buy this from most supermarts and they are also quiet cheep so they should be able to fit into ur budget.
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tresbien
11-08-2009, 05:02 PM
Do u like fish
It is proven in Saheeh al-Bukhaari (no. 5507) from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that some people came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: “Some people bring meat to us, and we do not know if they mentioned the name of Allaah or not.” He said: “Say it yourselves then eat.”

I [Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen is speaking] say: They were new in Islam, and they did not know whether they had said the name of Allaah or not, so he said: “Say it yourselves, then eat.” So eating it is permissible even if we do not know whether the one who slaughtered the meat mentioned the name of Allaah or not. Similarly it is permissible to eat even if we do not know whether the meat was slaughtered in the proper manner or not, because if the action is carried out by the right people then the basic principle is that it is valid, unless there is evidence to the contrary. So if some meat comes to us from a Muslim, a Jew or a Christian, we should not ask about it or ask how it was slaughtered or whether the name of Allaah was mentioned over it. It is halaal so long as there is no clear proof that it is haraam. This is a way in which Allaah has made things easier for us. Liqaa’aat al-Baab il-Maftooh, 1/77

It is clear from this that if you buy from this store and eat the food of the one from whom you buy it, there is nothing wrong with that and you do not need to ask him about the way in which the meat was slaughtered, unless you become certain that he has slaughtered it in a manner that is not prescribed, such as stunning the animal until it dies and so on. But it is better to buy from the Muslim as stated above.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.
Islam Q&A
............

-- With regard to other kinds of meat, if those who slaughter it – companies or individuals – are from the People of the Book, Jews or Christians, and it is known that they do not kill the animals by means of electric shocks, strangulation or blows to the head, as is known in the West, then the meat is permissible. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Made lawful to you this day are At-Tayyibaat [all kinds of Halaal (lawful) foods, which Allaah has made lawful (meat of slaughtered eatable animals, milk products, fats, vegetables and fruits)]. The food (slaughtered cattle, eatable animals) of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to you and yours is lawful to them”

[al-Maa'idah 5:5]

But if they kill the animals by means of some of these methods (electric shocks, etc), then the meat is haraam, because in that case the animals are counted as having been killed by strangling or by a violent blow (cf. Al-Maa'idah 5:3). If those who slaughter the meat are not Jews or Christians, then the meat that they offer is haraam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Eat not (O believers) of that (meat) on which Allâh's Name has not been pronounced (at the time of the slaughtering of the animal), for sure it is Fisq (a sin and disobedience of Allâh)”

[al-A'naam 6:121]

So the Muslim must strive to avoid what is obviously haraam, and be cautious of doubtful things, and be keen to keep his religious commitment safe and to protect his body from haraam foods.



Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak (www.islam-qa.com)
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kamran javed
11-08-2009, 05:26 PM
Why can't you buy live animal ( a chicken) , if you have a man at your house (father or bro) may be he can zubha it for you
__________________
OH Allah, when i lose hope because my plans have come to nothing... Then help me remember that Your love is always greater than my disappointments and Your plans for my life are always better than my dreams
----------------------------------GOD save our contry from enymies------------
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tresbien
11-08-2009, 06:51 PM
Pls any one who lives near esther invites her to celebrate eid with or just send her meat
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OurIslamic
11-08-2009, 06:55 PM
You don't HAVE to eat meat which isn't halal. Eat fish or another food which provides nutrients.
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Esther462
11-08-2009, 10:13 PM
I want a little verity in my diet. I'm not a fan of fish as I only eat tuna and cod prossed into a fish finger or fish cake. Quarn can get a little boreing after a little while as I've tryed but will try again on tuesday as I need to go shopping and have no meat left.
I've been invited to a friends house near London for eid but it's 2 hours on the train and I don't have money to spare at the moment.
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Hamza Asadullah
11-08-2009, 11:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Esther462
I want a little verity in my diet. I'm not a fan of fish as I only eat tuna and cod prossed into a fish finger or fish cake. Quarn can get a little boreing after a little while as I've tryed but will try again on tuesday as I need to go shopping and have no meat left.
I've been invited to a friends house near London for eid but it's 2 hours on the train and I don't have money to spare at the moment.
Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb, too much processed foods are not good for you so try to keep a balance and eat as many fresh fruit and vegtables as possible. May i ask what town your from as i may be able to see what the nearest halal meat place is to you. Also as i mentioned before whenever you go and get meat just buy it in bulk and store it as it can be kept for a very long time in the freezer. May Allah make it easy for you.
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Esther462
11-09-2009, 03:44 PM
I've done another serch online and found a halal shop in a big town about an 1 1/2 hours away from house. I might go there on Thursday as I'm free that day.
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Muslimlearner
11-09-2009, 03:50 PM
And remember:Allah SUT does not answer the du'as of those who eat haraam food...
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Kabeer
11-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Technically, If no halal meat is available for a long way. You can eat meat slaughtered by people of the Book (eg Christians and Jews).

Peace.
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Kabeer
11-11-2009, 12:19 AM
Salaam,
format_quote Originally Posted by Salman.
Do you have any authentic proof of that brother?^ jazakallah khayr:).
Quran:

"5:5 (Asad) Today, all the good things of life have been made lawful to you. And the food of those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime is lawful to you, [14] and your food is lawful to them. And [lawful to you are], in wedlock, women from among those who believe [in this divine writ], and, in wedlock, women from among those who have been vouchsafed revelation before your time -provided that you give them their dowers, taking them in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions. [15] But as for him who rejects belief [in God] - in vain will be all his works: for in the life to come he shall be among the lost. [16]"


Peace
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MuslimCONVERT
11-11-2009, 10:35 AM
Lets go a different way with this. It is a disputed matter among sholars about whether or not you can just go to the supermarket and eat the meat there. Really the decision is yours.

But I would advise against it because eating meat which you are unsure about is one of the things that can prevent the du'a from being answered. There are several examples of this from hadith and Sunnah, and from the lives of the Sahabah and Tab'een. My favorite example is the Sahabah noticed a man who always had his du'a answered very quickly. Really they were amazed and so they asked him what was his secret. His reply was, "whenever someone gives me some meat or I aquire some meat I always look into it's origin." i.e. whether or not it was halal. This same thing was echoed during the life of the Prophet [saas] when someone asked him how to get the du'a answered and he [saas] said, "eat halal." -This statement "eat halal" according to the fuqeha which i was reading meant food and income [wealth].

So really the option is there to not eat halal in your circumstance, but why risk the du'a not being answered? For right now, while you are still eating halal, I advise you to pray sincerely and constantly to Allah [swt] to increase your rizq and make a way for you to eat halal easily inshallah, and you will be much happier and much closer to Allah [swt] and the Sunnah inshallah.
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Hamza Asadullah
11-11-2009, 02:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kabeer
Technically, If no halal meat is available for a long way. You can eat meat slaughtered by people of the Book (eg Christians and Jews).

Peace.
Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb brother this is incorrect.

Allah Taãla says in the Noble Qurãn:
'Today I have made permissible for you pure things and the food of those who were given the Book (Ahlul-Kitaab) is also Halaal for you'. (Qurãn 5:4)

Overtly the above Aayat reads that the Zabeeha of the Ahlul-Kitaab is permissible, but the fundamental principle must be understood in order to understand the Qurãn i.e. 'One part of the Qurãn explains the other'.

Therefore, this verse should be understood in the light of another verse relating to the same matter: 'Do not eat unless Allah's name has been taken and this (not taking Allah's name) practice is transgression' (Quran 6:121)

While the former verse explicitly states that the Zabeeha of the Ahlul-Kitaab is permissible and the latter says, 'Do not eat unless Allah's name has been taken', in the light of both these verses, it is understood that the Zabeeha of the Ahlul-kitaab is permissible only if the name of Allah is taken at the time of slaughtering.

The Ahlul-kitaab used to take Allah's name when slaughtering an animal, therefore, their Zabeeha was also Halaal for Muslims. It is for this same reason that an animal slaughtered by the Mushrikeen, etc. is not permissible.

The Ahlul-kitaab of today are recognized only by name, less faith. There is no guarantee that they take the name of Allah/God when slaughtering an animal. Furthermore, they cannot be trusted in matters pertaining to Halaal/Haraam.

Since there is uncertainty in the above slaughter manner, the Jurists are unanimous that it is not permissible to consume meat which is doubtful. Unless there is certainty that the Ahlul-kitaab read the 'Tasmiyah' i.e. take the name of God when slaughtering an animal then only will the meat be permissible...

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

Source:http://www.as-sidq.org/zahbia.html

Even the meat of most of the Muslim butchers in the UK is doubtful because it is a well known fact that a lot of them slaughter the meat in the wrong way just to maximise output disregarding the proper Islamic method of slaughter.

A lot of them put Bismillah on their knives and mechanical cutting machines and have a tape player playing in the background which has someone repeating Bismillah all the time. Most also stun the animal with a harsh electric shock and give excruciating pain the the animal which is against Islam. Also stunning the animal damages it and causes brain damage aswell as killing the animal and according to the Islamic method of slaughter the animal MUST be healthy and alive before slaughter unless it is hunted in the wild.

How can they look for loopholes like this? There is no shortcuts or loopholes. Islam is clear and easy to follow but these people make things hard on themselves and us.

What does all this say about the meat slaughtered by non Muslims? Guaranteed they do not say the name of Allah or follow the shari'ah Principles of slaughter.

Most cannot even be called Christian because there is a big difference in the people of the book of those times and the people of the book now. In those time the people of the book did slaughter in the right way saying the name of Allah but this is not the case anymore.

Most don't even believe in their scriptures let alone say the name of God before slaughter.

Nowadays the main aim is maximum output so the likelyhood that the Islamic principles of zabihah of most meat that are sold in Muslim butchers are doubtful let alone meat sold in non Muslim butchers.

Luckily for us in the UK there is a reliable source of meat that we know is slaughtered in the right way and they are certified by a halal monitoring organisation called HMC.

That is why in the UK we should refer to HMC who are a reliable halal monitering organisation who have people who randomly go around the places they have certified and actively monitor them to make sure they are meeting the set criterea of Islamic slaughter.

Here is a list of certified halal butchers and takeaways across UK: http://www.halalmc.net/

Companies like HFA have no monitors at all and are not reliable at all and should be disregarded.

People from other countries should refer to their local scholars for advise on this issue or a reliable Islamic organisation in their region.

It is upto us to make sure the meat we are eating is slaughtered the proper way. There are many people who say that if they say it is halal then we should believe them. Yes but nowadays we KNOW for a fact that here in the UK there is a lot of dodgy butchers and takeaways who claim their meat is halal but stun their animals or use knives,machinery and a tape player saying bismillah, rather than the slaughterer saying it. All this just for maximum output with no care in the world if they are meeting the criterea for proper Islamic slaughter.

We should care as this is a test for us and we risk our deeds and dua's not being accepted as the brother above rightly said.

To conclude this, let us ponder upon the following words of Nabi
(Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam):


The lawful is clear and the unlawful is clear. Between these lie matters of
confusion. Regarding these, many are ignorant. Whomsoever falls into these,
falls into the unlawful, like a shepherd grazing (his flock) upon a
sanctuary's perimeter, very soon falls into trespass. Beware! Every king
posesses a sanctuary and the sanctuary of Allah Ta'ala are His prohibitions.
Take note! In the body resides a piece of flesh, upon its reformation is the
entire body's reform. Upon it's corruption is the whole body corrupted.
Listen! It is the heart.' (Arba'een Nawawiy)
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Esther462
11-13-2009, 03:24 PM
I went to the halal shop yesterday and it was very nice. I had some money to spare so I brought enoth meat for 3 weeks and I've put in the frezzer. I think halal meat tasts better than none halal meat.
I do have one problem, I've been invited for a Thanksgiving dinner with some friends tomoro. They are not serving pork but now I'm eatting halal, I don't know what I'm going to do about the turkey.
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Hamza Asadullah
11-13-2009, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Esther462
I went to the halal shop yesterday and it was very nice. I had some money to spare so I brought enoth meat for 3 weeks and I've put in the frezzer. I think halal meat tasts better than none halal meat.
I do have one problem, I've been invited for a Thanksgiving dinner with some friends tomoro. They are not serving pork but now I'm eatting halal, I don't know what I'm going to do about the turkey.
Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb, it is not permissable my sister because of the fact that it is clearly not slaughtered in the way prescribed by the correct Islamic slaughter procedure. You are correct in that Halal meat does taste better than non halal meat and it is also more healthier because of the fact that the blood is drained better after cutting the jugular vein of the animal and the fact that it is better for the animal as it feels less pain than when slaughtered by non Muslims who electrically stun the animal first.

If you tell your friends that you cannot eat the turkey and the reason behind it they will understand if they are true friends and they will make other arrangements for you inshallah but from now on you must abstain from eating haram meat because of the fact that if we eat haram then we risk our duas and good deeds not being accepted.
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OurIslamic
11-15-2009, 07:13 AM
Have you found a good solution yet?
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Sampharo
11-15-2009, 07:42 AM
Brothers and sisters kindly do not lead your friends astray. If you're not sure of your information please be careful, you can cause hardship to someone when there's no need, or get someone to commit a sin unknowingly.

It is consensus of all schools of fiqh that eating meat from christians and jews is allowed. A brother above brought a fatwa by Sheikh Ibn Uthaiman which is more than sufficient.

Sister Esther, Kosher meat IS halal. You can consume that without a problem. They slaughter the animal pronouncing the name of God, and clean it of all blood. It is a zebiha by any standard with the name of God pronounced on it. Modern jews are still very meticulous and some so particular that they overdo it by not eating anything not certified as kosher, even vegetables.

"If I can't find a halal meat, may I use "kosher" meat and canned meat products marked "kosher"?
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Yes, it is allowed to eat kosher meat. We know the Jews are very strict on slaughtering the animal and it is allowed for Muslims to eat the animals slaughtered by the People of the Book.

Sheikh Muhammad Nur Abdullah
ISNA President and Member of the Fiqh Council of North America"
http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa...GuestID=m0z9eA

Please note that kosher meat being halal, doesn't mean that all kosher FOOD or meals is halal, because kosher prepare some meals using alcohol.

Meat from christians is questionable because christians today are not like orthodox christians of long ago or those in the Middle East. They today eat whatever comes their way and don't care about whether it was stunned or not. But if you know them to be good christians, or the food is slaughtered, by Islamic ruling it is permissible, just remention the name of God on it.

God knows best
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Hamza Asadullah
11-15-2009, 11:18 AM
There are several issues with Kosher:

1. In Judaism, the rules and methods of slaughtering are not open and published. Unlike in Islam, where any adult sane Muslim can slaughter an animal by following the rules prescribed by Shariah, in Judaism only one kind of Rabbi, known as the Sachet, may slaughter Kosher animals. The Sachet is specially trained for this purpose and no other Jew can slaughter an animal.

Although Jews say that they slaughter in the name of God, we do not know what else they say in Hebrew while slaughtering. Their prayers and methods of slaughtering are in the hands of a few people and are not generally known.

2. The Sachet does not say prayers on all animals he slaughters at a time. Instead, he only says prayers on the first and last animals he slaughters. For example, if a Sachet has to slaughter ten cows, he will only say the prayer on the first and tenth cow while slaughtering, saying nothing on the cows in between.

This method of slaughtering is not similar to the method prescribed by Sharia for Hanafi sect, nor is it similar to the practice of Ahle-kitab at the time of our beloved Prophet Mohammed Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallum. Meat slaughtered by Ahlekitab was considered halal because of similarity in the slaughtering method and in the Niya at that time.

These are the reasons why most Ulama do not consider Kosher meat halal.

If a Muslim is not in danger of death, he must avoid eating haram food at any cost. If halal meat is not available, one can eat fish or vegetables or can even go to the slaughter house to slaughter an animal himself. There are many halal food stores online who can ship frozen Zabiha meat or Zabiha meat food products overnight. There is no excuse to eat non-zabiha meat or kosher meat in USA.

There are many Muslim-owned butchers and restaurants that sell and serve zabiha meat and there is no excuse to buy or eat Kosher.

There is a BIG difference with the people of the book of those days and those of today. Therefore everytime we even consider eating meat from non Muslims then know that your dua's and deeds may not be accepted and is that really worth the risk? Is it not better to stay away from that which is doubtful? We all know what is right and that is clearly to stay away from that which is doubtful and the slaughter of the Jews is VERY doubtful indeed.
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Hamza Asadullah
11-15-2009, 11:34 AM
All four schools require that that the animal be killed by using a sharp implement to cut the appropriate vessels in the throat.

Hanafi and Hanbali schools of thought require Bismillah to be said before slaughter of the animal but Maliki and Shafi'i are more lenient in this regard.

Shaykh Yasir Qadhi and Shaykh Bin Baaz followed the opinion that saying Bismillah is required before slaughter takes place and they argue that meat which comes from animals that have died from stunning is not permissable.

This is also the case in the UK,USA and many other countrys where the animal is stunned before slaughter which may cause its death therefore not making such meat permissable under the Islamic Zabiha method.

Christians are also required to follow the Old Testament and hence, they are to slaughter in the name of God. However, this aspect of Christian Law is completely neglected today and they do not mention anything when they slaughter their meat. If a Christian were to say, “In the Name of the Lord,” then this meat would be permissible. However, as we know, this does not take place amongst today’s Christians therefore meat slaughtered by a Christian is not permissable but in the past they did use to say the name of God but as mentioned before there is a massive difference in the people of the book of those days and today.

Many people have misinterpreted a fatwa from Shaykh Ibn Uthaymin. Shaykh Ibn Uthaymin lived his life in Saudi Arabia and never lived in the West (though he did travel to the USA for medical purposes).

Living in Saudi Arabia, he did not interact with Christians on a regular basis. It appears he was not aware that ALL Christians have abandoned this practice of stating the name of Allah.

If one reads his fatwa, he states that if one is unsure whether or not a Christian has mentioned Allah or not, then this meat is, by default, permissible. However, the fact of the matter is, we know FOR SURE that the name of Allah has NOT been mentioned by these Christians when they slaughter their meat.

Shaykh Yasir Qadhi was once in a gathering with Shaykh Ibn Uthaymin when a student asked, “Is their meat permissible when I know 100% for sure that they are slaughtering without saying Bismillah?”Shaykh Ibn Uthaymin responded by saying then, this meat is haraam (just) for you.

It appears that the Shaykh thought that this student of knowledge that asked this question was one of very few people who knew for sure that modern-day Christians do not say Bismillah.

However, the reality of the fact is that we ALL know that the name of Allah is not mentioned before the slaughter amongst Christians. Furthermore, if a Christian were to mention someone, it would probably be Jesus, in which case, the meat is haraam for it has been slaughtered in the name of other than Allah!

Top scholars across the Muslim world, including Shaykh Qaradawi himself say that Muslims should avoid Kosher meat due to the Zionist oppression in Palestine.

In closing, I leave you with the follow hadith to consider:

Adi b. Hatim reported: Allah’s Messenger (SAW) said to me: “When you let off your dog, recite the name of Allah, and if it catches (game for you) and you find it alive, then slaughter it; if you find it killed and that (your dog) has eaten nothing out of that, (even then) you may eat it; but if you find along with your dog another dog, and (the game an) dead, then don’t eat, for you do not know which of the two has killed it” (Muslim).
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Sampharo
11-15-2009, 01:19 PM
Brother Hamza,

I take issue with some of the things you are saying:

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza
1. In Judaism, the rules and methods of slaughtering are not open and published. Unlike in Islam, where any adult sane Muslim can slaughter an animal by following the rules prescribed by Shariah, in Judaism only one kind of Rabbi, known as the Sachet, may slaughter Kosher animals. The Sachet is specially trained for this purpose and no other Jew can slaughter an animal.
Sorry but that is not correct:

Jewish Dietary Laws

Level: Intermediate

Kashrut is the body of Jewish law dealing with what foods we can and cannot eat and how those foods must be prepared and eaten. "Kashrut" comes from the Hebrew root Kaf-Shin-Reish, meaning fit, proper or correct. It is the same root as the more commonly known word "kosher," which describes food that meets these standards. The word "kosher" can also be used, and often is used, to describe ritual objects that are made in accordance with Jewish law and are fit for ritual use.



Contrary to popular misconception, rabbis or other religious officials do not "bless" food to make it kosher. There are blessings that observant Jews recite over food before eating it, but these blessings have nothing to do with making the food kosher. Food can be kosher without a rabbi or priest ever becoming involved with it.



2. The Sachet does not say prayers on all animals he slaughters at a time. Instead, he only says prayers on the first and last animals he slaughters. For example, if a Sachet has to slaughter ten cows, he will only say the prayer on the first and tenth cow while slaughtering, saying nothing on the cows in between....


This method of slaughtering is not similar to the method prescribed by Sharia for Hanafi sect, ...
First off, you should not refer to scholars who use Hanafi methodology as Hanafi "sect". A sect is a group deviated and separated in their beliefs.


Second, your information is incorrect. Hanafi madhab scholars require any mention of God at the time of slaughter and do NOT require it to be said on every single animal in a row:


هل يجزئ غير التسمية أم يتعين لفظها، وهو بسم الله؟ فذهب الحنفية والمالكية إلى إجزاء غيرها من الذكر.
قال الحصكفي من الحنفية في الدر المختار: والشرط في التسمية هو الذكر الخالص عن شوب الدعاء وغيره، فلا يحل بقوله: اللهم اغفر لي، لأنه دعاء وسؤال، بخلاف الحمد لله أو سبحان الله مريدا به التسمية، فإنه يحل .


Only people from certain belief groups or "sects" have such thoughts, and it is not of the Sunnah to start with so it's not to be considered.


Although Jews say that they slaughter in the name of God, we do not know what else they say in Hebrew while slaughtering. Their prayers and methods of slaughtering are in the hands of a few people and are not generally known.
Again incorrect, kosher certified food today is very strictly prepared and they are quite finiky about it, and have more specific standards to follow than muslim food. We should not let our condemnation and rejection of Israel cloud our judgement towards jewish rulings. Additionally the notion of not eating the meat because we do not know if the name of God was mentioned is abrogated based on what the prophet said that if we get meat from jews or christians and don't know if they pronounced the name of God or not, the meat is still halal as long as we say the name of God on it. It is not permissible to ignore a direct allowance and such a direct clear hadith.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza81
Top scholars across the Muslim world, including Shaykh Qaradawi himself say that Muslims should avoid Kosher meat due to the Zionist oppression in Palestine.
I highly doubt that top scholars would make such a rookie mistake as to confuse contemporary political movement with jewish religion and pronounce something as haram based on that! Avoiding Israeli product yes, but no one can call kosher meat as UNFIT. This is what Sheikh Qaradawi actually says:
"“Since Allah did not prohibit it, the food of the Jews and the Christians is permitted to you on the basis of the original permissibility of things, and likewise you can share your food with them. Accordingly, you can eat the flesh of the animals they have slaughtered or hunted, and they can eat what you have slaughtered or hunted.”

(The Lawful and The Prohibited in Islam by Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, page 59).

“The application of the phrase, [part of the verse of the Quran, 5:5] ‘the food of those who were given the Scripture,' is general and includes their meats, produce, and other foods. All of these are halal for us excepting what is haram in itself, e.g., the flesh of a dead animal, pork, and flowing blood, as these are haram regardless of whether they are obtained from a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim. “

(The Lawful and The Prohibited in Islam by Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, page 60)

“...we know that imported meats, such as chicken and canned beef, originating with the People of the Book are halal for us, even though the animal may have been killed by means of electric shock or the like. As long as they consider it lawful in their religion, it is halal for us. This is the application of the above verse from Surah al-Maidah.” (Sheikh Qaradawi is referring to Quran 5:5)

(The Lawful and The Prohibited in Islam by Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, page 62)"

Living in Saudi Arabia, he did not interact with Christians on a regular basis. It appears he was not aware that ALL Christians have abandoned this practice of stating the name of Allah.
I don't want to get into arguing on what basis do you assume ALL christians don't pronounce the name of God. But, on what basis do you make assumptions of what Sheikh Uthaiman is aware and not aware of, calling him ignorant of what is going on in the World? Do you have him on record recanting his fatwa?

If not, you do not have the right to speak on his behalf and guess what he knew or didn't or condition his opinion.

These are the reasons why most Ulama do not consider Kosher meat halal.
Grossly incorrect statement! Why would you want to lead people astray?! Otherwise you are speaking on ignorant basis. It is consensus of scholars and Ulama that kosher meat IS PERMISSIBLE to eat. Quotes have already been brought by the World's leading authoritative sheikhs on this very thread that show this. Little pocket groups of self-complicating sects or sheikhs do not count in the face of clear-cut evidence and the overwhelming majority of Ahlu Sunnah scholars and ulama, especially that all the talk about it not being permissible does not have the evidence to it. Bring evidence to your opinion please (not just so and so's opinion without basis, or remotely related fatwas like Sheikh Qadhi's saying not to eat stunned animals, something that we were not discussing in the first place!) that kosher meat is not permissible to eat and show me how that evidence outweighs and overturns the consensus AND the proof that it IS permissible in order to consider.

والله المستعان
Reply

Sampharo
11-15-2009, 01:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Esther462
I do have one problem, I've been invited for a Thanksgiving dinner with some friends tomoro. They are not serving pork but now I'm eatting halal, I don't know what I'm going to do about the turkey.
Ask them directly sister whether it is a slaughtered turkey or not. If it is slaughtered based on the vast majority of scholars and correct evidence it is permissible to eat it, but recite the name of God in the beginning because you don't know for sure. If it is not slaughtered and supermarket variety, tell them honestly not to get offended if you can't eat from it.

God knows best
Reply

Esther462
11-15-2009, 03:28 PM
I didn't eat the turkey last night. I had loads of veg and stuffing instead. They asked me why I wasn't eatting the trukey and told them that "I'm eatting halal meat which is animales killed in specile way and it is the meat that muslims eat so I couldn't eat there meat".
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
11-15-2009, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sampharo
Brother Hamza,

I take issue with some of the things you are saying:



Sorry but that is not correct:

Jewish Dietary Laws

Level: Intermediate

Kashrut is the body of Jewish law dealing with what foods we can and cannot eat and how those foods must be prepared and eaten. "Kashrut" comes from the Hebrew root Kaf-Shin-Reish, meaning fit, proper or correct. It is the same root as the more commonly known word "kosher," which describes food that meets these standards. The word "kosher" can also be used, and often is used, to describe ritual objects that are made in accordance with Jewish law and are fit for ritual use.



Contrary to popular misconception, rabbis or other religious officials do not "bless" food to make it kosher. There are blessings that observant Jews recite over food before eating it, but these blessings have nothing to do with making the food kosher. Food can be kosher without a rabbi or priest ever becoming involved with it.




First off, you should not refer to scholars who use Hanafi methodology as Hanafi "sect". A sect is a group deviated and separated in their beliefs.


Second, your information is incorrect. Hanafi madhab scholars require any mention of God at the time of slaughter and do NOT require it to be said on every single animal in a row:


هل يجزئ غير التسمية أم يتعين لفظها، وهو بسم الله؟ فذهب الحنفية والمالكية إلى إجزاء غيرها من الذكر.
قال الحصكفي من الحنفية في الدر المختار: والشرط في التسمية هو الذكر الخالص عن شوب الدعاء وغيره، فلا يحل بقوله: اللهم اغفر لي، لأنه دعاء وسؤال، بخلاف الحمد لله أو سبحان الله مريدا به التسمية، فإنه يحل .


Only people from certain belief groups or "sects" have such thoughts, and it is not of the Sunnah to start with so it's not to be considered.


Again incorrect, kosher certified food today is very strictly prepared and they are quite finiky about it, and have more specific standards to follow than muslim food. We should not let our condemnation and rejection of Israel cloud our judgement towards jewish rulings. Additionally the notion of not eating the meat because we do not know if the name of God was mentioned is abrogated based on what the prophet said that if we get meat from jews or christians and don't know if they pronounced the name of God or not, the meat is still halal as long as we say the name of God on it. It is not permissible to ignore a direct allowance and such a direct clear hadith.



I highly doubt that top scholars would make such a rookie mistake as to confuse contemporary political movement with jewish religion and pronounce something as haram based on that! Avoiding Israeli product yes, but no one can call kosher meat as UNFIT. This is what Sheikh Qaradawi actually says:
"“Since Allah did not prohibit it, the food of the Jews and the Christians is permitted to you on the basis of the original permissibility of things, and likewise you can share your food with them. Accordingly, you can eat the flesh of the animals they have slaughtered or hunted, and they can eat what you have slaughtered or hunted.”

(The Lawful and The Prohibited in Islam by Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, page 59).

“The application of the phrase, [part of the verse of the Quran, 5:5] ‘the food of those who were given the Scripture,' is general and includes their meats, produce, and other foods. All of these are halal for us excepting what is haram in itself, e.g., the flesh of a dead animal, pork, and flowing blood, as these are haram regardless of whether they are obtained from a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim. “

(The Lawful and The Prohibited in Islam by Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, page 60)

“...we know that imported meats, such as chicken and canned beef, originating with the People of the Book are halal for us, even though the animal may have been killed by means of electric shock or the like. As long as they consider it lawful in their religion, it is halal for us. This is the application of the above verse from Surah al-Maidah.” (Sheikh Qaradawi is referring to Quran 5:5)

(The Lawful and The Prohibited in Islam by Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, page 62)"

I don't want to get into arguing on what basis do you assume ALL christians don't pronounce the name of God. But, on what basis do you make assumptions of what Sheikh Uthaiman is aware and not aware of, calling him ignorant of what is going on in the World? Do you have him on record recanting his fatwa?

If not, you do not have the right to speak on his behalf and guess what he knew or didn't or condition his opinion.

Grossly incorrect statement! Why would you want to lead people astray?! Otherwise you are speaking on ignorant basis. It is consensus of scholars and Ulama that kosher meat IS PERMISSIBLE to eat. Quotes have already been brought by the World's leading authoritative sheikhs on this very thread that show this. Little pocket groups of self-complicating sects or sheikhs do not count in the face of clear-cut evidence and the overwhelming majority of Ahlu Sunnah scholars and ulama, especially that all the talk about it not being permissible does not have the evidence to it. Bring evidence to your opinion please (not just so and so's opinion without basis, or remotely related fatwas like Sheikh Qadhi's saying not to eat stunned animals, something that we were not discussing in the first place!) that kosher meat is not permissible to eat and show me how that evidence outweighs and overturns the consensus AND the proof that it IS permissible in order to consider.

والله المستعان

Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb,

Allah Taãla says in the Noble Qurãn:
'Today I have made permissible for you pure things and the food of those who were given the Book (Ahlul-Kitaab) is also Halaal for you'. (Qurãn 5:4)

Overtly the above Aayat reads that the Zabeeha of the Ahlul-Kitaab is permissible, but the fundamental principle must be understood in order to understand the Qurãn i.e. 'One part of the Qurãn explains the other'.

Therefore, this verse should be understood in the light of another verse relating to the same matter: 'Do not eat unless Allah's name has been taken and this (not taking Allah's name) practice is transgression' (Quran 6:121)

While the former verse explicitly states that the Zabeeha of the Ahlul-Kitaab is permissible and the latter says, 'Do not eat unless Allah's name has been taken', in the light of both these verses, it is understood that the Zabeeha of the Ahlul-kitaab is permissible only if the name of Allah is taken at the time of slaughtering.

The Ahlul-kitaab used to take Allah's name when slaughtering an animal, therefore, their Zabeeha was also Halaal for Muslims. It is for this same reason that an animal slaughtered by the Mushrikeen, etc. is not permissible.

The Ahlul-kitaab of today are recognized only by name, less faith. There is no guarantee that they take the name of Allah/God when slaughtering an animal. Furthermore, they cannot be trusted in matters pertaining to Halaal/Haraam.

Since there is uncertainty in the above slaughter manner, the Jurists are unanimous that it is not permissible to consume meat which is doubtful. Unless there is certainty that the Ahlul-kitaab read the 'Tasmiyah' i.e. take the name of God when slaughtering an animal then only will the meat be permissible...

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

Also:

The answer to this question will be divided into three parts:

1. The first looks at the Islamic perspective and viewpoint with regards to meat-eating and slaughtering of animals.

2. The second deals with the conditions and rules pertaining to a valid slaughter in Shariah.

3. The third in refutation of those who call for the meat sold in western supermarkets to be considered lawful (halal).

1. The Islamic Perspective on Eating Meat & Slaughtering Animals:

It is common knowledge that eating meat goes back to the advent of man. Man has been consuming meat from the very early times. However, before the advent of Islam, all possible means were used in order to acquire the meat of animals. The flesh of dead animals was consumed. At times a part of the body of a living animal would be cut and eaten. No consideration would be taken in preventing the pain and suffering to the defenceless and innocent creatures of Allah.

Then, Allah blessed humanity with His Beloved Messenger (Allah bless him & give him peace), as a light and life-giving.

The Sacred Law (Shariah) of Islam that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) came with from Allah differentiated between a living and a dead animal. Dead animals were declared unlawful (haram). Certain animals that were harmful to the wellbeing of humans were also prohibited, such as: pigs, dogs, cats and wild animals.

Animals that were declared lawful (halal) were also subjected to certain rules & regulations, which would ensure that the blood and other impure elements come out from their body as much as possible and that the slaughter be done in a way that was least painful and most merciful to the animal. The ritual nature of the slaughtering also serves as a reminder to humans of the tremendousness of the gift of life, and the blessing of food in general and meat in particular.

The Sacred Law of the Beloved Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) also distinguished between the consumption of animals and other types of food. Animals are similar to humans as they possess a soul and the five senses. They are able to experience pains and pleasures. Due to this fact, it would appear that the consumption of animal meat should not have been lawful for humans. Some people, in different civilizations and times, whose intellects have not been enlightened by the light of revelation, came to this conclusion.

However, Allah Almighty through his infinite Mercy and Grace permitted humans to consume the meat of certain animals. He made humans the best of creations and created everything for their benefit. Allah Most High Says:

“It is He, who has created for you all things that are on earth.” (Qur’an, al-Baqarah, 2.29).

With this, Islam stands out from the man-made religions and faiths in that it has appointed and fixed certain methods and ways for the slaughtering of animals. It has laid down principles, and prescribed laws without which the animals are not lawful to consume.

The issue of slaughtering animals is not a normal and mundane issue, in which an individual may act as he/she desires, without being restricted to rules and principles. Rather it is regarded from the acts of worship, and there is sacredness associated with it, for the reasons mentioned above.

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

“Whoever prays our prayer and faces our Qiblah and eats our slaughtered animals, is a believer who is under Allah’s and His Messenger’s protection.” [Recorded by Imam al-Bukhari on the authority of Anas ibn Malik (Allah be pleased with him)]

In another hadith, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) stated:

“I have been ordered to fight the people until they say: ‘There is no God but Allah.’ When they do so, and pray like our prayers, face our Qiblah and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacrosanct except by due legal right.” [Bukhari]

The above two narrations of the blessed Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) are very clear in determining that the slaughtering of animals holds a significant position in Shariah. The Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) counted the slaughtering of animals with praying Salat and facing the Qiblah. He considered it from those specific features of Islam, which distinguishes a Muslim from a non-Muslim and regarded it as one of the hallmarks of a true believer with which his life and wealth is protected.

Therefore, those who believe that the slaughtering of animals is a normal and non-religious affair and that one may practice the slaughter in the manner one wishes, are clearly in contradiction with the sayings and guidance of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). How can one regard it as a purely mundane act when our Beloved Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) considered it to be sign of a Muslim?

Thus, it may be seen that the Shariah is very clear with regards to the consumption of animals. It has prescribed certain principles, rules, regulations and laws to which a Muslim must adhere. Some of these laws are connected to the actual lawfulness of the animal and others to the slaughtering of the animal. Failing to comply with these rules may well render the animal haram.

2. The Conditions & Rules Pertaining To A Valid Slaughter In The Sacred Law:

The rules and laws governing hunting and slaughtering are given great importance in traditional Islamic jurisprudence, because of the importance Allah and His Messenger (Allah bless him & give him peace) gave them.

The fuqaha (jurists) have explained these rules in great detail in their various works, deducing from the Qur’an, Prophetic example (sunna), and the sayings of the Companions (Allah be pleased with them). Very rarely one will find a book in traditional Islamic jurisprudence without a complete chapter on hunting and slaughtering.

We can obviously not cover all of these rules in this brief article; neither is that our aim, but the basic fundamentals and important principles with regards to the slaughtering of animals can be mentioned.

There are basically three conditions for a valid slaughter according to the Shariah:

a) Most of the four veins (including the Jugular vein, according to some) must cut with a tool that is sharp and has a cutting edge;

b) The name of Allah must be taken at the time of slaughtering, whether actually or effectively (such as when it is forgotten by someone who would normally have said it);

c) The slaughterer must be either a Muslim or from the People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab). [As mentioned by Haskafi and Ibn Abidin in Radd al-Muhtar `ala al-Durr al-Mukhtar]

It should be also remembered here, that all these conditions are necessary individually and separately. Failure to fulfil them will render the animal unlawful.

Let us look at these rules and conditions in more detail:

The first condition:

Those animals which are within ones capacity to slaughter, whether domesticated or wild, it is necessary that its blood is shed by a tool that has a cutting edge, and that it kills the animal with its sharpness and not by its force. This sharp thing may be a knife or anything else. However, it is disliked (makruh) to use a tooth or a claw in the Hanafi School and impermissible to do so in the Shafi’I school. [Ibn Abidin, Radd al-Muhtar, 5/208]

Allah Almighty says:

“Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been invoked the name of other than Allah, that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death, that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal, unless you are able to slaughter it (before the animal dying due to the above causes).” [Qur’an, Surah al-Ma’idah, 5.3]

In a rigorously authenticated (sahih) hadith recorded by Imam al-Bukhari and others, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

“If the killing tool causes the blood to gush out, and the name of Allah is mentioned, then eat (of the slaughtered animal), but do not use a nail (claw) or a tooth.” [Bukhari]

Ibn Abbas reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

“Whatever cuts the jugular veins, then eat the animal.” (Muwatta of Imam Malik, 2/489)

Ibn Abbas and Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with them) report:

“The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) prohibited the Sharita of Shaytan. It is an animal which is slaughtered by cutting it open, and the veins are not cut, and is then left to die.” [Sunan Abu Dawud]

From the above hadiths and other evidences, the fuqaha (jurists) have deduced that for the animal to be lawful (halal) it is necessary that its veins are cut open in a way that the blood streams and gushes out. This is to make sure that the impure elements are removed from the animal as much as possible.

The Fuqaha differ as to which of the veins must be cut. According to Imam Shafi’i, both the wind pipe and the gullet must be slit in order for the animal to be lawful. According to our (Hanafi) school, three from the four must be cut. However, all the fuqaha agree that the place to slaughter is the throat and the upper part of the chest.

The second condition:

As far as the second condition (taking Allah’s name) is concerned, the majority of the jurists are of the view that this is necessary. If one failed to recite Allah’s name intentionally and deliberately, the animal will be unlawful to consume. However, if this is left out due to forgetfulness, it will remain halal, as the primary texts indicate

This is the ruling according to the majority of the jurists. It is usually related from Imam Shafi’i (Allah be pleased with him) that the animal will be halal even in the situation of leaving pronouncing the name of Allah intentionally, and to recite the name of Allah is merely a Sunnah. However, my respected teacher Mufti Taqi Usmani (Allah preserve him) argues (after giving proofs from the extensive works of the Shafi`i school) that this is only when it occurs infrequently. If a habit is made of leaving pronouncing the name of Allah due to negligence and taking the matter lightly, it is also not permissible according to the Shafi`i school.

Some evidences regarding the necessity of pronouncing the name of Allah when slaughtering:

a) Allah Most High says:

“Eat not of (meats) over which Allah’s name has not been pronounced. That would be impiety.” (al-An’ am, V. 121)

The above text is clear in determining the necessity of taking the name of Allah when slaughtering and the unlawfulness of the animal when it is left out, as the major Qur’anic commentators explain.

b) Allah Almighty says:

“They ask you what is lawful for them (as food). Say: Lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure and what you have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah. Eat what they catch for you and pronounce the name of Allah over it.” (al-Ma’idah, V.4)

c) Allah Almighty says:

“Why should you not eat of (meats) on which Allah’s name has been pronounced.” (al-An’am, V. 119)

d) Jundub ibn Sufyan al-Bajali narrates that:

“Once we offered some animals as sacrifices with the Messenger of Allah. Some people slaughtered their sacrifices before the Eid prayer. When the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) completed his prayer, He saw that they had slaughtered before the prayer. He said: “Whoever slaughtered before the prayer, should slaughter another animal (sacrifice) in place of it and those who did not slaughter until we prayed, should slaughter by mentioning Allah’s name.” [Bukhari]

The third condition:

The third condition is that the slaughterer must be either a Muslim or from the people of the book (Ahl al-Kitab). The animal slaughtered by other then a Muslim or the People of the Book (namely, Jews and Christians, if the other conditions are also fulfilled) is haram according to all the jurists of Islam. Scholarly consensus (ijma`) has been transmitted on this matter by major authorities. [Ibn Qudama, Mughni 9.312, and other works]

Allah Most High says:

“Today are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them” (al-An’am, V. 5).

The meaning of “food” in the above verse is specifically the animals slaughtered by the People of the book (Christians and Jews). (See Tafsir Ibn Kathir, 2/19).

Overtly, the above verse reads that the animal slaughtered (zabiha) by the People of the Book is permissible and lawful to consume. However, there is a fundamental principle in the science of the exegesis of the Holy Qur’an (Tafsir) which states, very understandably, that, “One part of the Qur’an explains the other.” [See: Qurtubi’s introduction to his al-Jami` li Ahkam al-Qur’an, and Suyuti’s al-Itqan fi `Ulum al-Qur’an]

Therefore, this verse should be understood in the light of another verse mentioned earlier relating to the same matter: “Eat not of (meats) on which Allah’s name has not been pronounced” (al-An’am, 121).

In the light of both verses, it is deduced and understood that the Zabiha of the Ahl al-Kitab is only permissible when the name of Allah was taken at the time of slaughtering the animal, and the slaughtering itself done in the proper manner. As mentioned earlier, this condition of reciting the name of Allah is independently necessary. This is discussed further in the following section.

3. Regarding the Claims of Those Who State That Western Supermarket Meats Are Halal:

Now we look at the claims made by certain groups that the meat available in western supermarkets is Halal. From among such people is also one of the renowned contemporary scholars Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, as rightly pointed out by the questioner.

I would not like to offend anybody but, rather, to point out to the truth. Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi is a great scholar who has done great service to Islam, and conveyed its message and rulings to people few others have been able to reach. May Allah reward him greatly for this. It is this unbefitting for a mere student like me to criticize him. But this is a unique aspect of our religion that it enables and empowers students and lesser people to stand up for the truth. And it is only the barakah of these great scholars themselves enables those less than them to bring their views foreword. And all, ultimately only seek the truth and Allah’s acceptance.

Regarding Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, I think the following excerpt of our moderator Sayyidi Faraz Rabbani is sufficient, which was posted earlier:

“Traditional scholars caution about Shaykh Qaradawi’s fiqh methodology and especially his excessive leniency that often reaches the point of laxity. This is because he does not limit himself to reliable positions within the four Sunni schools of Fiqh, and is notorious among scholars for many aberrant stances and positions.

They respect him as a scholar, but they are cautious and caution others about positions he takes that depart from the mainstream.”

The basis of Shaykh Qaradawi’s argument is that the verse of the Holy Qur’an which permits the food of the People of the Book (mentioned earlier) is general and includes their meats, produce and other foods irrespective of the way the slaughter took place, and whether the name of Allah was taken or not.

Also, he argues, the food of the Christians and Jews is permitted on the basis of the original permissibility of things, as Allah did not prohibit it.

In summary, there are two questions which arise here:

a) Is it necessary for the people of the Book to slaughter the animal according to the method prescribed by Shariah? and

b) Is it necessary for them

The first question: Is it necessary for the people of the Book to slaughter the animal according to the method prescribed by Shariah?

As far as the first question is concerned, the overwhelming majority of the jurists are of the view that the slaughtering of the People of the Book will only be Halal if they slaughter the animal according to the principles set down by Shariah.

Below are some of the evidences which signify this:

1) Allah Almighty says in Surah al-Ma’idah:

“Forbidden to you are: dead meat, the flesh of swine, and that on which has been invoked the name of other than Allah, that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death, that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal, unless you are able to slaughter it” (Qur’an, 5.3).

Swine has been declared unlawful in this verse, as has been the animal which was strangled to death or was killed by a violent blow. If one considers animals strangled by the Ahl al-Kitab as lawful will also have to regard the meat of swine Halal, as both have been mentioned in the same context, and also it is from the “food of the People of the Book”.

2) The meaning of the verse “The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you” is that they are considered as equal to the Muslims with regards to the slaughter of animals, not surpass them. How can it be that the animal slaughtered by someone of the People of the Book is Halal regardless of the procedure used in slaughtering, and the animal slaughtered by a Muslim in the same manner is deemed unlawful?

3) Islam made a distinction between the Ahl al-Kitab and other non-Muslims with regards to slaughter and marriage, as their laws in these two aspects were very similar to those of Muslims. For example, it is stated in the Jewish book The Mishnah:

“If he slaughtered with a hand-sickle or with a blunt glass or with a reed, what he slaughters is valid. All may slaughter and at any time and with any implement excepting a reaping sickle or a saw or teeth or the finger-nails, since these choke.” (The Misnah, hullin 1, P.513)

The above is clear in determining that the permissibility of consuming meat slaughtered by Christians and Jews is only because they adhere to the principles set down by Islam.

4) If one was to marry a Christian or a Jewish girl, but not in accordance with the laws of the Shariah, such as the need for witnesses and not marrying an immediate family member, it would be considered unlawful without disagreement. Then why the difference in the issue of slaughter and animals?

There are also other evidences, but I will suffice with these, as not to prolong our discussion.

The Second Question:Is it necessary for them to take the name of Allah?

Regarding the taking of Allah’s name by the people of the book, there is a difference of opinion between the jurists.

According to the Hanafi and Hanbali schools, this is a condition for the animal to be Halal. (See: Kasani, Bada’i` al-Sana’i`, 5.46). Also here, the reason why an animal slaughtered by the Ahal al-Kitab is Halal is because they used to take Allah’s name when slaughtering the animal.

Then there is another aspect to this issue, which is that many people in the West claim to be Christians. This claim is not true insofar as they do not firmly believe in God, a revealed book, and a prophet, regardless of the nature of their beliefs in these matters. Rather, they are often Christians only by name and do not actually believe in any religion. Thus, they cannot be termed People of the Book. They are atheists and it is not permissible to consume the animal slaughtered by them, by scholarly consensus.

In conclusion, the meat sold in western supermarkets or served by Christians will be unlawful as they generally do not fulfil the conditions of a valid slaughtering and that they are usually not true Christians. Kosher meat, would be however, in itself permitted. Top scholars across the Muslim world, including Shaykh Qaradawi himself say that Muslims should avoid Kosher meat due to the Zionist oppression in Palestine.

And Allah Knows Best

Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam
Darul Iftaa
Leicester, UK

Also

Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states the following:

"Kosher meat, strictly speaking, is considered halal. But this rule, it should be emphasized, does not apply indiscriminately to all kosher foods that are prepared and labeled as kosher, since it is possible they may contain wine or other ingredients that are considered haram. It is, therefore, necessary that we stringently inquire into the components of each food that is labeled as kosher; if a food is found to be free of haram ingredients, it shall be considered halal (permitted). Otherwise, it will be haram (forbidden) for us to consume.

If we don’t inquire into the details of the ingredients and the way kosher foods have been prepared, we may end up inadvertently eating what is haram—as happened to one of our sisters who was in a hospital in Toronto. She was served a kosher meal and consumed it thinking it was halal, but later she discovered that it had been prepared with wine.

Setting aside the jurisprudential aspects of kosher being halal or not, before deciding to purchase and consume kosher products, we should also take into consideration another important sociopolitical issue: by purchasing kosher foods, are we indirectly supporting the systematic displacement and genocide of our Palestinian brothers and sisters? This is not to say that this consideration renders purchasing kosher products haram, but it is to say that perhaps our economic power could be used more wisely.

Finally, if one was to objectively survey one’s local food retail landscape, there is clearly no shortage of vendors of Muslim halal products. Therefore, it is quite evident that circumstances requiring one to purchase kosher instead of Muslim halal would be few and far between."

Taken from Islamonline
Reply

Sampharo
11-15-2009, 04:29 PM
Brother Hamza,

You have brought around an overly long post and that is tiring for people to read. You have that habit and though information is good, flooding like that is much less useful and counter-productive. Kindly try to avoid doing that in debate for our sake please. However I went through it all, and I noted in it that you have practically redressed the entire subject.

For your first portion which referred to a slaughtered animal being a religious act, you spoke about and took evidence relating to Udheya (slaughter of Eid Adha, or Sacrifice) which is not what we were talking about, but ok.

For your second portion, you brought about in detail the conditions of slaughtering, which nobody disputed, and has been agreed upon by consensus of scholars that whatever is obligatory from them is being applied in slaughtered meat of the people of the book who still abide by those rules like kosher meat and pious orthodox christians.

For your third one, you are now publishing the views that are saying that kosher meat is fine and permissible, and the one from christians has to be checked that they are real christians and the animal is actually slaughtered. So it's a reversal of your earlier post. :ermm:

You know what that is fine and good and al-hamdolillah goes with the evidence of the Sunnah. However, I don't get why you are calling that an "answer" to what I said by quoting me? You actually answered yourself though.

I hope you will note in the future to post the correct views that have appropriate evidence from the beginning, but anyway al-hamdolellah that things are clarified now to readers: Kosher meat is halal by vast majority of scholars, meat from christians has to satisfy conditions of being from real christians and slaughtered.

N.B. I mentioned Sheikh Qaradawy's portions of his book that gave permissibility, because you mentioned he said otherwise, so I was correcting the information. However I do agree with the quote that his fatwas are taken with caution despite his position as a respectable scholar.

With that said, I can say Salamu Alaikom
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
11-15-2009, 04:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sampharo
Brother Hamza,

You have brought around an overly long post and that is tiring for people to read. You have that habit and though information is good, flooding like that is much less useful and counter-productive. Kindly try to avoid doing that in debate for our sake please. However I went through it all, and I noted in it that you have practically redressed the entire subject.

For your first portion which referred to a slaughtered animal being a religious act, you spoke about and took evidence relating to Udheya (slaughter of Eid Adha, or Sacrifice) which is not what we were talking about, but ok.

For your second portion, you brought about in detail the conditions of slaughtering, which nobody disputed, and has been agreed upon by consensus of scholars that whatever is obligatory from them is being applied in slaughtered meat of the people of the book who still abide by those rules like kosher meat and pious orthodox christians.

For your third one, you are now publishing the views that are saying that kosher meat is fine and permissible, and the one from christians has to be checked that they are real christians and the animal is actually slaughtered. So it's a reversal of your earlier post. :ermm:

You know what that is fine and good and al-hamdolillah goes with the evidence of the Sunnah. However, I don't get why you are calling that an "answer" to what I said by quoting me? You actually answered yourself though.

I hope you will note in the future to post the correct views that have appropriate evidence from the beginning, but anyway al-hamdolellah that things are clarified now to readers: Kosher meat is halal by vast majority of scholars, meat from christians has to satisfy conditions of being from real christians and slaughtered.

N.B. I mentioned Sheikh Qaradawy's portions of his book that gave permissibility, because you mentioned he said otherwise, so I was correcting the information. However I do agree with the quote that his fatwas are taken with caution despite his position as a respectable scholar.

With that said, I can say Salamu Alaikom
Brother the reason why i took that stance in the first post is because of the fact that you gave permissablity for people to eat from the 'modern day' people of the book regardless of whether it conforms with the zabiha Islamic method or not. You have to be VERY careful and exercise caution when doing this.

Your post could easily have been misinterpreted and the next day you will get people going to burger king and Mcdonalds to eat because of the fact that they had seen or heard a fatwa saying that it was permissable regardless. One has to be VERY careful with regards to what we eat.

Nowadays in the Christian world there is a use of non-shar’i methods of slaughtering, especially with birds. It is established that a significant portion of slaughterhouses strangle them, stun them by electric shock, and then drown them in scalding water to kill them. There is also the method of severing its spinal column. As for sheep, they use a steel bolt to cut its spinal cord, and this causes it to die. They also use bullets to kill bulls by firing them into their heads, and they slaughter them immediately afterwards, as the bull usually doesn’t die from the bullet, as its main purpose is to stun the bull and prevent it from resisting during slaughter. However, if they delay slaughtering it, it dies from the bullet. There is also the method of striking it on the forehead with a hammer to kill it. It is because Christians do not follow the shar’i cutting rules they also employ idolworshippers such as the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Buddhists etc. as slaughterers. There is no doubt the slaughter of these mushrik are not permissible to eat. Some of the people say “Christians are the people of the scripture? And Allah has permitted eating the meat of the people of the scripture?” We say however that even if a Muslim slaughtered the meat in this way it still would not be allowed! So the matter is not only about whether they are people of the scripture or not, the issue is also about the method of slaughter. If it is known that a Christian slaughterer who meets the cutting rules of his shari’ah than the slaughter of this person can be eaten. However it is almost impossible to find such person in the Christian community.

We should all refrain from stunned meat aswell that is why in one of my previous posts i did mention the company HMC halal monitoring organisation for those residing in the UK.

The pious orthodox Christians that you talk about who say the name of God and not Jesus before slaughter is extremly rare nowadays. Even with Kosher meat one has to still enquire about whether or not

Even in regards to Kosher food we should enquire if it is prepared in accordance with the PROPER Jewish method of slaughter and is free of pork and also suitable for the Muslims to eat (as long as alcohol is not in the ingredients) because as we know there are 72 sects of Jews and not all of them have them abide by the orthodox kosher methods of slaughter.

So next time let us practise precaution when saying what is and what is not permissable because you should have set out conditions not just have said it is permissable regardless because we know it is'nt and that strict rules have to be adhered to.
Reply

Tsiya
11-15-2009, 06:50 PM
I also live in UK, somewhere remote in Scotland and difficult to get halal meat. I do come to town to get the meat. However, I understand that Islam permit muslim to eat any meat provided it is not pork, donkey, dogs and other haram animals if they are slaughtered by other people for food. It is even permissible to eat animal that is killed by a dog if you go for hunting. For instance for those that go for hunting, especially in certain parts of Africa, if their hunting dog killed a rabbit, dear or gazzle, it is permissible in Islam to eat the meat provided that you say Bismillah before you consume it.

The following verses in Surah (5) outlines the animals to eat:

(3) Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah. that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

(4) They ask thee what is lawful to them (as food). Say: lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure: and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah. eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of Allah over it: and fear Allah. for Allah is swift in taking account.

(5) This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).


The Hadith of Aisha cited by a previous poster:


It is obvious that these verses are unambigous. To me all meat, slaughtered with the intention for food, if it is not haram meat like pork, then say bisimillah and eat.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
11-15-2009, 08:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tsiya

It is obvious that these verses are unambigous. To me all meat, slaughtered with the intention for food, if it is not haram meat like pork, then say bisimillah and eat.
Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb, Islam is not about our opinions or for us to have our own opinion on a matter to do with deen.

Islam has been prefected and is complete. If you choose to disregard the fact that the animal HAS to be slaughtered with certain conditions whether its done by Ahlel kitaab or a Muslim then that is your decision but some people wonder why things are going wrong in their life and why they feel no peace and tranquility in their lives and that their dua's don't get accepted aswell as having no barakat in their money. Well it may just be that they are eating haraam and not taking care of what they consume.

Do not ever think that Allah will be ok with us eating whatever we want without checking or taking precaution.

Knowledge is fard on all Muslims and if we do not know the criterea in order for mean to be halal for us to eat then its time we did learn and know because ANY meat that does not conform with the proper zabiha method as prescribed in Islam whether its dont by ahlel kitaab or Muslim then in my previous posts is NOT permissable.

As mentioned generally if Jews slaughter the meat using the PROPER slaughter method in order to deem it kosher the name of god HAS to be said before slaughter aswell as the slaughter being done by sharpened knives and cutting the right vessels of the throat. One has to make sure that the proper method is used as there are a number of Jewish sects who may have differing methods or be more lenient in slaughter.

Nowadays in the Christian world there is a use of non-shar’i methods of slaughtering, especially with birds. It is established that a significant portion of slaughterhouses strangle them, stun them by electric shock, and then drown them in scalding water to kill them. There is also the method of severing its spinal column. As for sheep, they use a steel bolt to cut its spinal cord, and this causes it to die. They also use bullets to kill bulls by firing them into their heads, and they slaughter them immediately afterwards, as the bull usually doesn’t die from the bullet, as its main purpose is to stun the bull and prevent it from resisting during slaughter. However, if they delay slaughtering it, it dies from the bullet. There is also the method of striking it on the forehead with a hammer to kill it. It is because Christians do not follow the shar’i cutting rules they also employ idolworshippers such as the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Buddhists etc. as slaughterers. There is no doubt the slaughter of these mushrik are not permissible to eat. Some of the people say “Christians are the people of the scripture? And Allah has permitted eating the meat of the people of the scripture?” We say however that even if a Muslim slaughtered the meat in this way it still would not be allowed! So the matter is not only about whether they are people of the scripture or not, the issue is also about the method of slaughter. If it is known that a Christian slaughterer who meets the cutting rules of his shari’ah than the slaughter of this person can be eaten. However it is almost impossible to find such person in the Christian community.

So it is NOT permissable to eat from such people ONLY if you find a proper orthodox Christian slaughterer who slaughters saying the name of God and NOT Jesus and slaughters using a sharpened knife cutting the right vessels in the throat and NOT stunning them and cutting them elsewhere. Once all the right criterea have been met then meat from these ahlul kitaab is deemed permissable but good luck finding one.

Considering this meat from supermarkets and everyday butchers who's religion is NOT known nor is it known how they slaughter or who slaughters the meat then it is clearly NOT permissable and you should change your attitude towards eating halal meat because not caring where the meat came from and saying Bismillah before you eat it is NOT valid and it is your life but you have been told for your own benefit.

Let us refrain from letting haram enter our bodys. Let us only have goodness and halal enter our bodys so that we may be pure.
Reply

Insaanah
11-15-2009, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sampharo
Brothers and sisters kindly do not lead your friends astray. If you're not sure of your information please be careful, you can cause hardship to someone when there's no need, or get someone to commit a sin unknowingly.
I couldn't agree more. Therefore we should not be suggesting that people can eat kosher meat as a matter of course. Making such a pronouncement can lead unknowledgable people to then think, yaay that's fine, I don't need halaal meat any more, I can just say bismillah, eat any meat and bingo! Then slowly slowly, the distinction between halaal and haraam in food can go. Then distinction between halaal and haraam in other areas can go.

We should be sticking to halaal meat slaughtered by Muslims strictly in accordance with the sunnah. I don't eat meat slaughtered by Muslims if I know that the animal has been stunned or the sunnah has not been followed, so I would not want to eat meat slaughtered by non-Muslims. My love is for the meat slaughtered according to the sunnah that rasoolullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam taught.

Allah knows best.

:sl:
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
11-15-2009, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Esther462
I didn't eat the turkey last night. I had loads of veg and stuffing instead. They asked me why I wasn't eatting the trukey and told them that "I'm eatting halal meat which is animales killed in specile way and it is the meat that muslims eat so I couldn't eat there meat".
Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb, well done sister, were very proud of you. You will feel much more peave of mind and heart aswell as tranquility in eating that which you know is halal rather than that which is doubtful or haraam.
Reply

Insaanah
11-15-2009, 10:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Esther462
I didn't eat the turkey last night. I had loads of veg and stuffing instead. They asked me why I wasn't eatting the trukey and told them that "I'm eatting halal meat which is animales killed in specile way and it is the meat that muslims eat so I couldn't eat there meat".
:sl: sister,

I wanted to be the first to congratulate you but bro Hamza beat me to it!

May Allah reward you abundantly for remaining so steadfast on the deen and for not being swayed, and may he give you the continuing ability to do so forever. Ameen.

:sl:
Reply

Sampharo
11-16-2009, 03:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza81
Brother the reason why i took that stance in the first post is because of the fact that you gave permissablity for people to eat from the 'modern day' people of the book regardless of whether it conforms with the zabiha Islamic method or not. You have to be VERY careful and exercise caution when doing this.
No I did not. Why are you lying regarding what I said? Are you thinking this is a joke here to contradict yourself and give false statements over and over or do you think Islamic rules are not worth actually watching what you say?

Brother you are not only contradicting yourself and publishing false statements referring to scholars, you're actually outright turning things around on posts right here. Any person can look at my post and clearly read what I said about scholars agreeing that in the absence of halal meat, Kosher meat being permissible if certified, and christian's meat being questioinable until proven they are orthodox proper christians or not. This isn't proper at all from someone giving information that people might learn from.

Kosher meat means proper kosher meat and if you want to create a new parallel issues on "maybe it's not REALLY proper kosher" then it's an argument that applies to all halal meat as well, considering it could be also not REALLY proper halal or provided by questionable sources, or marked so by Shia sects that say the name of Ali instead of God. That is a possibility with both meats that had NOTHING to do with our discussion.

You seem to fall back to arguments of "getting halal meat instead" and "we don't know the kosher meat if it has pork", which is schitzophrenic to say considering:

1- The poster SAID she couldn't get her hands on Halal meat (Al-hamdolillah she later found a place)

2- Jews never eat pork or accept mixing any part of it, and you already yourself posted that information!


Above all that neither explains nor allows you to make absolute false statements regarding Islamic rulings with evidence, such as that most scholars say kosher meat is not permissible when the opposite is true by the very demonstration made on the thread (every named Sheikh including your references said so).

You're not making only ignorant deductions that are not of Islam and go against stated rulings, but also seem to be deliberately twisting your own or other people's statements. That is neither the akhlaq of muslims nor the accepted behaviour in a proper conversation.

I am no longer continuing it with you.

أستغفر الله العظيم
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
11-16-2009, 01:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sampharo
No I did not. Why are you lying regarding what I said? Are you thinking this is a joke here to contradict yourself and give false statements over and over or do you think Islamic rules are not worth actually watching what you say?

Brother you are not only contradicting yourself and publishing false statements referring to scholars, you're actually outright turning things around on posts right here. Any person can look at my post and clearly read what I said about scholars agreeing that in the absence of halal meat, Kosher meat being permissible if certified, and christian's meat being questioinable until proven they are orthodox proper christians or not. This isn't proper at all from someone giving information that people might learn from.

Kosher meat means proper kosher meat and if you want to create a new parallel issues on "maybe it's not REALLY proper kosher" then it's an argument that applies to all halal meat as well, considering it could be also not REALLY proper halal or provided by questionable sources, or marked so by Shia sects that say the name of Ali instead of God. That is a possibility with both meats that had NOTHING to do with our discussion.

You seem to fall back to arguments of "getting halal meat instead" and "we don't know the kosher meat if it has pork", which is schitzophrenic to say considering:

1- The poster SAID she couldn't get her hands on Halal meat (Al-hamdolillah she later found a place)

2- Jews never eat pork or accept mixing any part of it, and you already yourself posted that information!


Above all that neither explains nor allows you to make absolute false statements regarding Islamic rulings with evidence, such as that most scholars say kosher meat is not permissible when the opposite is true by the very demonstration made on the thread (every named Sheikh including your references said so).

You're not making only ignorant deductions that are not of Islam and go against stated rulings, but also seem to be deliberately twisting your own or other people's statements. That is neither the akhlaq of muslims nor the accepted behaviour in a proper conversation.

I am no longer continuing it with you.

أستغفر الله العظيم
Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb, these statements that you made in your previous posts are what triggered my responses:

"It is consensus of all schools of fiqh that eating meat from christians and jews is allowed. A brother above brought a fatwa by Sheikh Ibn Uthaiman which is more than sufficient."

This is clearly INCORRECT! It is only permissable IF the people of the book said the name of god and NO other deity BEFORE slaughter and that the slaughter takes places with a sharpened knife cutting the right vessels in the throat and WITHOUT being stunned because the animal HAS to be alive before slaughter and stunning causes the animal significant damage aswell as death.

In another post you stated:

"Ask them directly sister whether it is a slaughtered turkey or not. If it is slaughtered based on the vast majority of scholars and correct evidence it is permissible to eat it, but recite the name of God in the beginning because you don't know for sure. If it is not slaughtered and supermarket variety, tell them honestly not to get offended if you can't eat from it."

You are giving people the permissability to say bismillah before eating ANY type of meat whether it is slaughtered or not, how does that make the meat halal? This is clearly misleading people into thinking that if they are not ssure how the meat was slaughtered then they can just say bismillah before eating it and it will be fine. NO it will NOT be fine because it HAS to be slaughtered in the way mentioned above.

Now if i was an ordinary person reading your posts without much knowledge of Islam or the proper procedure of making an animal permissable for Muslims to eat then it would give me the excuse i need to go and eat non halal meat from whoever i want and just say bismillah before hand if im not sure how it was slaughtered.

You should be VERY careful indeed how you word your posts because your statements are CLEARLY giving permission to people to become complacent with regards to eating meat from non Muslim sources.
Reply

Sampharo
11-16-2009, 02:14 PM
Brother Hamza,

How can my statement "If it is slaughtered based on the vast majority of scholars and correct evidence it is permissible to eat it,....If it is not slaughtered and supermarket variety, tell them honestly not to get offended if you can't eat from it." mean "You are giving people the permissability to say bismillah before eating ANY type of meat whether it is slaughtered or not"?!?!?

EDITED by Woodrow

And kosher certified food IS permissible because kosher slaughter do NOT call any other deities and you already published scholarly views as such yourself, so please spare our sanity.

Subhanallah wa Allahu Al-MustaAAan
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
11-16-2009, 04:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sampharo
Brother Hamza,

How can my statement "If it is slaughtered based on the vast majority of scholars and correct evidence it is permissible to eat it,....If it is not slaughtered and supermarket variety, tell them honestly not to get offended if you can't eat from it." mean "You are giving people the permissability to say bismillah before eating ANY type of meat whether it is slaughtered or not"?!?!?

And kosher certified food IS permissible because kosher slaughter do NOT call any other deities and you already published scholarly views as such yourself, so please spare our sanity.

Subhanallah wa Allahu Al-MustaAAan
You seemed to have missed out this sentence.

"but recite the name of God in the beginning because you don't know for sure."

Your statements that were quoted from your posts are clearly giving people the impression that if they are not sure how the animal is slaughtered then just say "bismillah" just incase on is not sure how the meat is slaughtered and everything will be alright. This will inevitabley make a person complacent about finding out whether the meat they eat was slaughtered as prescribed by the sharia'ah.

You should be VERY careful of the words you choose in your posts and be responsible for what you have written and therefore take due criticism of the way you have worded your post because it is NOT right to give others the impression that generally one can eat meat from any Alhlel kitaab regardless of whether the slaughter method is as prescribed by the sharia.

To you it may not come across like this, but to others reading your posts it seems that you are implying permissability of eating any non Muslim slaughtered meat and to just say bismillah if one is not sure how it is slaughtered.

The truth does hurt. But it has to be said because already the fatwa of that sheikh has been misinterpreted and SO many people are now eating in Mcdonalds and Burger king aswell as other haraam sources and the excuse they have is the quote from the sheikh mentioned. Your posts also imply this so nect time be careful and re read what you are going to post. Jazakallah khayran
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
11-17-2009, 01:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnonymousGender
Okay, i think this is the most annoying topic because people will label is and say it is HARAM when it is NOT HARAM, it is not forbidden to eat non-thabiha meat. It is just RECOMMENDED that you do. If it is available then why not eat that but if it is not, no need to worry... all meat is permissible as long as it is not PORK. If your intentions are clean, Allah is with you. Just say bismillah before you eat it. The quran does not mention anything about thabiha meats, but it does mention pork. But it is very wrong to label things as haram unless it is CLEARLY stated in the QURAN that it is forbidden. Allah knows best.
Asalaamu Alaikum Wr Wb, brother i urge you to learn properly about these VERY important matters to do with Islam before making such unfound erroneous statements on that which you clearly have no knowledge on.

Let us Never get complacent about making sure that the meat we eat is slaughtered correctly and in the right way by the right people because as soon as you start not caring and thinking that Allah will be alright about you eating whatever meat you like then that's when you have misunderstood Islam and completley NOT understood the Qur'an and sunnah.

It seems clear to me from your comments that you have spoken and given your own fatwa without having any knowledge on the matter whatsoever. That is VERY wrong of you to do that and if you go around giving wrong and misleading information then you will be accountable on the day of judgement and Allah will ask you why did you not aqcuire correct knowledge rather than giving false misleading statements which are not in accordance to the teachings of the Qur'an and sunnah!

Here is the Islamic perspective which i will paste again for you and others because it is essential that we know these extremley important details about our deen especially on matters to do with what we eat, otherwise there is risk that we will continue eating haraam and risk the acceptance of our good deeds and dua's and then wonder why we have no peace,tranquility in our lives and why our dua's are not being accepted.

Allah Taãla says in the Noble Qurãn:
'Today I have made permissible for you pure things and the food of those who were given the Book (Ahlul-Kitaab) is also Halaal for you'. (Qurãn 5:4)

Overtly the above Aayat reads that the Zabeeha of the Ahlul-Kitaab is permissible, but the fundamental principle must be understood in order to understand the Qurãn i.e. 'One part of the Qurãn explains the other'.

Therefore, this verse should be understood in the light of another verse relating to the same matter: 'Do not eat unless Allah's name has been taken and this (not taking Allah's name) practice is transgression' (Quran 6:121)

While the former verse explicitly states that the Zabeeha of the Ahlul-Kitaab is permissible and the latter says, 'Do not eat unless Allah's name has been taken', in the light of both these verses, it is understood that the Zabeeha of the Ahlul-kitaab is permissible only if the name of Allah is taken at the time of slaughtering.

The Ahlul-kitaab used to take Allah's name when slaughtering an animal, therefore, their Zabeeha was also Halaal for Muslims. It is for this same reason that an animal slaughtered by the Mushrikeen, etc. is not permissible.

The Ahlul-kitaab of today are recognized only by name, less faith. There is no guarantee that they take the name of Allah/God when slaughtering an animal. Furthermore, they cannot be trusted in matters pertaining to Halaal/Haraam.

Since there is uncertainty in the above slaughter manner, the Jurists are unanimous that it is not permissible to consume meat which is doubtful. Unless there is certainty that the Ahlul-kitaab read the 'Tasmiyah' i.e. take the name of God when slaughtering an animal then only will the meat be permissible...

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

Also:

The answer to this question will be divided into three parts:

1. The first looks at the Islamic perspective and viewpoint with regards to meat-eating and slaughtering of animals.

2. The second deals with the conditions and rules pertaining to a valid slaughter in Shariah.

3. The third in refutation of those who call for the meat sold in western supermarkets to be considered lawful (halal).

1. The Islamic Perspective on Eating Meat & Slaughtering Animals:

It is common knowledge that eating meat goes back to the advent of man. Man has been consuming meat from the very early times. However, before the advent of Islam, all possible means were used in order to acquire the meat of animals. The flesh of dead animals was consumed. At times a part of the body of a living animal would be cut and eaten. No consideration would be taken in preventing the pain and suffering to the defenceless and innocent creatures of Allah.

Then, Allah blessed humanity with His Beloved Messenger (Allah bless him & give him peace), as a light and life-giving.

The Sacred Law (Shariah) of Islam that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) came with from Allah differentiated between a living and a dead animal. Dead animals were declared unlawful (haram). Certain animals that were harmful to the wellbeing of humans were also prohibited, such as: pigs, dogs, cats and wild animals.

Animals that were declared lawful (halal) were also subjected to certain rules & regulations, which would ensure that the blood and other impure elements come out from their body as much as possible and that the slaughter be done in a way that was least painful and most merciful to the animal. The ritual nature of the slaughtering also serves as a reminder to humans of the tremendousness of the gift of life, and the blessing of food in general and meat in particular.

The Sacred Law of the Beloved Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) also distinguished between the consumption of animals and other types of food. Animals are similar to humans as they possess a soul and the five senses. They are able to experience pains and pleasures. Due to this fact, it would appear that the consumption of animal meat should not have been lawful for humans. Some people, in different civilizations and times, whose intellects have not been enlightened by the light of revelation, came to this conclusion.

However, Allah Almighty through his infinite Mercy and Grace permitted humans to consume the meat of certain animals. He made humans the best of creations and created everything for their benefit. Allah Most High Says:

“It is He, who has created for you all things that are on earth.” (Qur’an, al-Baqarah, 2.29).

With this, Islam stands out from the man-made religions and faiths in that it has appointed and fixed certain methods and ways for the slaughtering of animals. It has laid down principles, and prescribed laws without which the animals are not lawful to consume.

The issue of slaughtering animals is not a normal and mundane issue, in which an individual may act as he/she desires, without being restricted to rules and principles. Rather it is regarded from the acts of worship, and there is sacredness associated with it, for the reasons mentioned above.

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

“Whoever prays our prayer and faces our Qiblah and eats our slaughtered animals, is a believer who is under Allah’s and His Messenger’s protection.” [Recorded by Imam al-Bukhari on the authority of Anas ibn Malik (Allah be pleased with him)]

In another hadith, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) stated:

“I have been ordered to fight the people until they say: ‘There is no God but Allah.’ When they do so, and pray like our prayers, face our Qiblah and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacrosanct except by due legal right.” [Bukhari]

The above two narrations of the blessed Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) are very clear in determining that the slaughtering of animals holds a significant position in Shariah. The Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) counted the slaughtering of animals with praying Salat and facing the Qiblah. He considered it from those specific features of Islam, which distinguishes a Muslim from a non-Muslim and regarded it as one of the hallmarks of a true believer with which his life and wealth is protected.

Therefore, those who believe that the slaughtering of animals is a normal and non-religious affair and that one may practice the slaughter in the manner one wishes, are clearly in contradiction with the sayings and guidance of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). How can one regard it as a purely mundane act when our Beloved Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) considered it to be sign of a Muslim?

Thus, it may be seen that the Shariah is very clear with regards to the consumption of animals. It has prescribed certain principles, rules, regulations and laws to which a Muslim must adhere. Some of these laws are connected to the actual lawfulness of the animal and others to the slaughtering of the animal. Failing to comply with these rules may well render the animal haram.

2. The Conditions & Rules Pertaining To A Valid Slaughter In The Sacred Law:

The rules and laws governing hunting and slaughtering are given great importance in traditional Islamic jurisprudence, because of the importance Allah and His Messenger (Allah bless him & give him peace) gave them.

The fuqaha (jurists) have explained these rules in great detail in their various works, deducing from the Qur’an, Prophetic example (sunna), and the sayings of the Companions (Allah be pleased with them). Very rarely one will find a book in traditional Islamic jurisprudence without a complete chapter on hunting and slaughtering.

We can obviously not cover all of these rules in this brief article; neither is that our aim, but the basic fundamentals and important principles with regards to the slaughtering of animals can be mentioned.

There are basically three conditions for a valid slaughter according to the Shariah:

a) Most of the four veins (including the Jugular vein, according to some) must cut with a tool that is sharp and has a cutting edge;

b) The name of Allah must be taken at the time of slaughtering, whether actually or effectively (such as when it is forgotten by someone who would normally have said it);

c) The slaughterer must be either a Muslim or from the People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab). [As mentioned by Haskafi and Ibn Abidin in Radd al-Muhtar `ala al-Durr al-Mukhtar]

It should be also remembered here, that all these conditions are necessary individually and separately. Failure to fulfil them will render the animal unlawful.

Let us look at these rules and conditions in more detail:

The first condition:

Those animals which are within ones capacity to slaughter, whether domesticated or wild, it is necessary that its blood is shed by a tool that has a cutting edge, and that it kills the animal with its sharpness and not by its force. This sharp thing may be a knife or anything else. However, it is disliked (makruh) to use a tooth or a claw in the Hanafi School and impermissible to do so in the Shafi’I school. [Ibn Abidin, Radd al-Muhtar, 5/208]

Allah Almighty says:

“Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been invoked the name of other than Allah, that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death, that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal, unless you are able to slaughter it (before the animal dying due to the above causes).” [Qur’an, Surah al-Ma’idah, 5.3]

In a rigorously authenticated (sahih) hadith recorded by Imam al-Bukhari and others, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

“If the killing tool causes the blood to gush out, and the name of Allah is mentioned, then eat (of the slaughtered animal), but do not use a nail (claw) or a tooth.” [Bukhari]

Ibn Abbas reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

“Whatever cuts the jugular veins, then eat the animal.” (Muwatta of Imam Malik, 2/489)

Ibn Abbas and Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with them) report:

“The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) prohibited the Sharita of Shaytan. It is an animal which is slaughtered by cutting it open, and the veins are not cut, and is then left to die.” [Sunan Abu Dawud]

From the above hadiths and other evidences, the fuqaha (jurists) have deduced that for the animal to be lawful (halal) it is necessary that its veins are cut open in a way that the blood streams and gushes out. This is to make sure that the impure elements are removed from the animal as much as possible.

The Fuqaha differ as to which of the veins must be cut. According to Imam Shafi’i, both the wind pipe and the gullet must be slit in order for the animal to be lawful. According to our (Hanafi) school, three from the four must be cut. However, all the fuqaha agree that the place to slaughter is the throat and the upper part of the chest.

The second condition:

As far as the second condition (taking Allah’s name) is concerned, the majority of the jurists are of the view that this is necessary. If one failed to recite Allah’s name intentionally and deliberately, the animal will be unlawful to consume. However, if this is left out due to forgetfulness, it will remain halal, as the primary texts indicate

This is the ruling according to the majority of the jurists. It is usually related from Imam Shafi’i (Allah be pleased with him) that the animal will be halal even in the situation of leaving pronouncing the name of Allah intentionally, and to recite the name of Allah is merely a Sunnah. However, my respected teacher Mufti Taqi Usmani (Allah preserve him) argues (after giving proofs from the extensive works of the Shafi`i school) that this is only when it occurs infrequently. If a habit is made of leaving pronouncing the name of Allah due to negligence and taking the matter lightly, it is also not permissible according to the Shafi`i school.

Some evidences regarding the necessity of pronouncing the name of Allah when slaughtering:

a) Allah Most High says:

“Eat not of (meats) over which Allah’s name has not been pronounced. That would be impiety.” (al-An’ am, V. 121)

The above text is clear in determining the necessity of taking the name of Allah when slaughtering and the unlawfulness of the animal when it is left out, as the major Qur’anic commentators explain.

b) Allah Almighty says:

“They ask you what is lawful for them (as food). Say: Lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure and what you have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah. Eat what they catch for you and pronounce the name of Allah over it.” (al-Ma’idah, V.4)

c) Allah Almighty says:

“Why should you not eat of (meats) on which Allah’s name has been pronounced.” (al-An’am, V. 119)

d) Jundub ibn Sufyan al-Bajali narrates that:

“Once we offered some animals as sacrifices with the Messenger of Allah. Some people slaughtered their sacrifices before the Eid prayer. When the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) completed his prayer, He saw that they had slaughtered before the prayer. He said: “Whoever slaughtered before the prayer, should slaughter another animal (sacrifice) in place of it and those who did not slaughter until we prayed, should slaughter by mentioning Allah’s name.” [Bukhari]

The third condition:

The third condition is that the slaughterer must be either a Muslim or from the people of the book (Ahl al-Kitab). The animal slaughtered by other then a Muslim or the People of the Book (namely, Jews and Christians, if the other conditions are also fulfilled) is haram according to all the jurists of Islam. Scholarly consensus (ijma`) has been transmitted on this matter by major authorities. [Ibn Qudama, Mughni 9.312, and other works]

Allah Most High says:

“Today are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them” (al-An’am, V. 5).

The meaning of “food” in the above verse is specifically the animals slaughtered by the People of the book (Christians and Jews). (See Tafsir Ibn Kathir, 2/19).

Overtly, the above verse reads that the animal slaughtered (zabiha) by the People of the Book is permissible and lawful to consume. However, there is a fundamental principle in the science of the exegesis of the Holy Qur’an (Tafsir) which states, very understandably, that, “One part of the Qur’an explains the other.” [See: Qurtubi’s introduction to his al-Jami` li Ahkam al-Qur’an, and Suyuti’s al-Itqan fi `Ulum al-Qur’an]

Therefore, this verse should be understood in the light of another verse mentioned earlier relating to the same matter: “Eat not of (meats) on which Allah’s name has not been pronounced” (al-An’am, 121).

In the light of both verses, it is deduced and understood that the Zabiha of the Ahl al-Kitab is only permissible when the name of Allah was taken at the time of slaughtering the animal, and the slaughtering itself done in the proper manner. As mentioned earlier, this condition of reciting the name of Allah is independently necessary. This is discussed further in the following section.

3. Regarding the Claims of Those Who State That Western Supermarket Meats Are Halal:

Now we look at the claims made by certain groups that the meat available in western supermarkets is Halal. From among such people is also one of the renowned contemporary scholars Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, as rightly pointed out by the questioner.

I would not like to offend anybody but, rather, to point out to the truth. Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi is a great scholar who has done great service to Islam, and conveyed its message and rulings to people few others have been able to reach. May Allah reward him greatly for this. It is this unbefitting for a mere student like me to criticize him. But this is a unique aspect of our religion that it enables and empowers students and lesser people to stand up for the truth. And it is only the barakah of these great scholars themselves enables those less than them to bring their views foreword. And all, ultimately only seek the truth and Allah’s acceptance.

Regarding Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, I think the following excerpt of our moderator Sayyidi Faraz Rabbani is sufficient, which was posted earlier:

“Traditional scholars caution about Shaykh Qaradawi’s fiqh methodology and especially his excessive leniency that often reaches the point of laxity. This is because he does not limit himself to reliable positions within the four Sunni schools of Fiqh, and is notorious among scholars for many aberrant stances and positions.

They respect him as a scholar, but they are cautious and caution others about positions he takes that depart from the mainstream.”

The basis of Shaykh Qaradawi’s argument is that the verse of the Holy Qur’an which permits the food of the People of the Book (mentioned earlier) is general and includes their meats, produce and other foods irrespective of the way the slaughter took place, and whether the name of Allah was taken or not.

Also, he argues, the food of the Christians and Jews is permitted on the basis of the original permissibility of things, as Allah did not prohibit it.

In summary, there are two questions which arise here:

a) Is it necessary for the people of the Book to slaughter the animal according to the method prescribed by Shariah? and

b) Is it necessary for them

The first question: Is it necessary for the people of the Book to slaughter the animal according to the method prescribed by Shariah?

As far as the first question is concerned, the overwhelming majority of the jurists are of the view that the slaughtering of the People of the Book will only be Halal if they slaughter the animal according to the principles set down by Shariah.

Below are some of the evidences which signify this:

1) Allah Almighty says in Surah al-Ma’idah:

“Forbidden to you are: dead meat, the flesh of swine, and that on which has been invoked the name of other than Allah, that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death, that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal, unless you are able to slaughter it” (Qur’an, 5.3).

Swine has been declared unlawful in this verse, as has been the animal which was strangled to death or was killed by a violent blow. If one considers animals strangled by the Ahl al-Kitab as lawful will also have to regard the meat of swine Halal, as both have been mentioned in the same context, and also it is from the “food of the People of the Book”.

2) The meaning of the verse “The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you” is that they are considered as equal to the Muslims with regards to the slaughter of animals, not surpass them. How can it be that the animal slaughtered by someone of the People of the Book is Halal regardless of the procedure used in slaughtering, and the animal slaughtered by a Muslim in the same manner is deemed unlawful?

3) Islam made a distinction between the Ahl al-Kitab and other non-Muslims with regards to slaughter and marriage, as their laws in these two aspects were very similar to those of Muslims. For example, it is stated in the Jewish book The Mishnah:

“If he slaughtered with a hand-sickle or with a blunt glass or with a reed, what he slaughters is valid. All may slaughter and at any time and with any implement excepting a reaping sickle or a saw or teeth or the finger-nails, since these choke.” (The Misnah, hullin 1, P.513)

The above is clear in determining that the permissibility of consuming meat slaughtered by Christians and Jews is only because they adhere to the principles set down by Islam.

4) If one was to marry a Christian or a Jewish girl, but not in accordance with the laws of the Shariah, such as the need for witnesses and not marrying an immediate family member, it would be considered unlawful without disagreement. Then why the difference in the issue of slaughter and animals?

There are also other evidences, but I will suffice with these, as not to prolong our discussion.

The Second Question:Is it necessary for them to take the name of Allah?

Regarding the taking of Allah’s name by the people of the book, there is a difference of opinion between the jurists.

According to the Hanafi and Hanbali schools, this is a condition for the animal to be Halal. (See: Kasani, Bada’i` al-Sana’i`, 5.46). Also here, the reason why an animal slaughtered by the Ahal al-Kitab is Halal is because they used to take Allah’s name when slaughtering the animal.

Then there is another aspect to this issue, which is that many people in the West claim to be Christians. This claim is not true insofar as they do not firmly believe in God, a revealed book, and a prophet, regardless of the nature of their beliefs in these matters. Rather, they are often Christians only by name and do not actually believe in any religion. Thus, they cannot be termed People of the Book. They are atheists and it is not permissible to consume the animal slaughtered by them, by scholarly consensus.

In conclusion, the meat sold in western supermarkets or served by Christians will be unlawful as they generally do not fulfil the conditions of a valid slaughtering and that they are usually not true Christians. Kosher meat, would be however, in itself permitted. Top scholars across the Muslim world, including Shaykh Qaradawi himself say that Muslims should avoid Kosher meat due to the Zionist oppression in Palestine.

And Allah Knows Best

Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam
Darul Iftaa
Leicester, UK

Also

Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states the following:

"Kosher meat, strictly speaking, is considered halal. But this rule, it should be emphasized, does not apply indiscriminately to all kosher foods that are prepared and labeled as kosher, since it is possible they may contain wine or other ingredients that are considered haram. It is, therefore, necessary that we stringently inquire into the components of each food that is labeled as kosher; if a food is found to be free of haram ingredients, it shall be considered halal (permitted). Otherwise, it will be haram (forbidden) for us to consume.

If we don’t inquire into the details of the ingredients and the way kosher foods have been prepared, we may end up inadvertently eating what is haram—as happened to one of our sisters who was in a hospital in Toronto. She was served a kosher meal and consumed it thinking it was halal, but later she discovered that it had been prepared with wine.

Setting aside the jurisprudential aspects of kosher being halal or not, before deciding to purchase and consume kosher products, we should also take into consideration another important sociopolitical issue: by purchasing kosher foods, are we indirectly supporting the systematic displacement and genocide of our Palestinian brothers and sisters? This is not to say that this consideration renders purchasing kosher products haram, but it is to say that perhaps our economic power could be used more wisely.

Finally, if one was to objectively survey one’s local food retail landscape, there is clearly no shortage of vendors of Muslim halal products. Therefore, it is quite evident that circumstances requiring one to purchase kosher instead of Muslim halal would be few and far between."

Taken from Islamonline
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