What atheism is for?

[Justufy]

greetings, feedback apreciated.

my thoughts
Yes..

I was wondering what Atheism brings to society and the world. That theists don’t, I am curious on issues of spreading the idea of peace and joy to the world. does atheist spread those? do they have large organisations that help the poor the suffering etc? Seeing everyone on here subscribing to atheism I’m sure it does bring something, surly being a very moderate theist(if I were a very adamant and by the book theist I would not be here) I’m missing out on the fun ??

My questions is , and I’m curious:
because when you see it atheism is a choice to disconnect with God, what has that choice brought you atheists?
what has it given you except the freedom to stop caring about your actions
Or is it simply out of frustration of being blind to gods light. A prayer that has stayed unanswered...? A loved one that has departed in eternity? And of whose signs we can no longer perceive but in our hearts.

Because when you look at it, a theist thinker and atheist thinker are quite the same and identical if not for a lack in the atheist, the lack of faith,

because I tried to invision myself as an atheist, rejecting god and mocking him and his religion here and elsewhere regularly. and getting down the road, as my last breaths expires into the world.. and bearing the fear, in those lasts instants that I might have been wrong all these years.so, im asking.
just curiosity.
And with a gentle mind of pure heart.

Most best regards and considerations.

[Uthman]

[Gator]

Hey Just,

Not too sure I understand the question (plus the post is a little disjointed, sorry).

Atheism is just that you don't think there's a god.

After that, each atheist has his/her own philosphy (though I'm sure their are major overlapping groupings).

For me, my best shot at the "TRUTH" is that the universe is governed by natural laws, which implies atheism. So what it "gives" me is that I live my life based on my beliefs without lying to myself.

Do Atheist spread peace and love? I guess some do, about the same as theists.
Are their large secular organizations that help the poor? Yes.

Thanks.

[Woodrow]

While there are atheists who choose atheism because they desire to reject God(swt) I believe most are so simply because they do not see any evidence of God(swt).

There have been a few governments and social structures based upon atheism, communism probably the most recent and best known to people today.

Atheism exists because it can. God(swt) has willed for all possible things to be, therefore if it is possible it exists. Now, as to what is Atheism for? Possibly because without it we would not have true freedom of choice.

It is impossible for a theist to become an atheist without a conscious effort to find a reason to reject the existence of God(swt). Also, to try to understand atheism requires us theists to constantly reaffirm our own faith and increase our own reasons to belief. It helps force us to better understand our selfs and helps guide us in defending our beliefs when the need arises.

So in simplistic terms, I see atheists as being useful people, as they help strengthen theistic beliefs, even if that is not their intent.

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[Justufy]

Most atheists argue that religion is some kind of a crutch for the weak who cannot live their life without God, I argue that loving god, and doing his will means living your belief which can be a painful process sometimes, however for those that are madly in love with God it is not seen as a burden.

My point being that atheism also can be seen as a crutch as the atheists refuses to make the choice to believe in god thus avoiding what living one’s life with god is about: sacrifice, unconditional love, and goodness.

[Supreme]

While there are atheists who choose atheism because they desire to reject God(swt) I believe most are so simply because they do not see any evidence of God(swt).

There have been a few governments and social structures based upon atheism, communism probably the most recent and best known to people today.

Atheism exists because it can. God(swt) has willed for all possible things to be, therefore if it is possible it exists. Now, as to what is Atheism for? Possibly because without it we would not have true freedom of choice.

It is impossible for a theist to become an atheist without a conscious effort to find a reason to reject the existence of God(swt). Also, to try to understand atheism requires us theists to constantly reaffirm our own faith and increase our own reasons to belief. It helps force us to better understand our selfs and helps guide us in defending our beliefs when the need arises.

So in simplistic terms, I see atheists as being useful people, as they help strengthen theistic beliefs, even if that is not their intent.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head in that post.

[KAding]

Most atheists argue that religion is some kind of a crutch for the weak who cannot live their life without God, I argue that loving god, and doing his will means living your belief which can be a painful process sometimes, however for those that are madly in love with God it is not seen as a burden.

My point being that atheism also can be seen as a crutch as the atheists refuses to make the choice to believe in god thus avoiding what living one’s life with god is about: sacrifice, unconditional love, and goodness.

Different people, different beliefs. Some people might lead a more fulfilling life while being religious, while others thrive in an a-religious setting. There is no one size/philosophy/lifestyle that fits all!

[GuestFellow]

greetings, feedback apreciated.

my thoughts
Yes..

I was wondering what Atheism brings to society and the world.

:sl:

Well Atheism do provide some sort of balance. They allow us to consider different points of views.

[Trumble]

There have been a few governments and social structures based upon atheism, communism probably the most recent and best known to people today.

Rubbish. Communism was not 'based upon atheism'.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i didnt understand your question...


what do they bring to society?

well i havent benefitted from them one tiny little bit. Im sure i would have benefitted more from being taught from an islamic teacher then discussing with them yet i'll never stop discussing with them just out of hope that they'll see my view.

i will never stop thinking that society is better off without atheists

Assalamu Alaikum

[GuestFellow]

Rubbish. Communism was not 'based upon atheism'.

Well its based on the political theory or system in which all property and wealth is owned in a classless society by all the members of that society. Atheism does play a role in Communism to some extent.

[Supreme]

Rubbish. Communism was not 'based upon atheism'.

Communist states were atheist (not secular, secular states don't commit mass crimes against the religious believers).

[GuestFellow]

I met some people who believe atheism = secularism.

There are people who believe in God and there are people who don't believe in God. Some people adopt these beliefs.

There are some people who believe in God but have a religion which sets out how they should live their life while other people believe in God but don't follow any religion.

Same applies to atheism. There are people who don't believe in God and live a secular lifestyle where they are not bound by any structured belief system. While other atheists don't believe in God but have a set of values or are governed by an ideology like Communism.

That is my understanding of it :/

[Woodrow]

The example of communism most people are most aware of was the former USSR, perhaps that is not the ideal form of communism or what communism is in a theoritical sense. But, it is what communism becomes. Under communism heism was an impossibility. To exist as a stte communism had to be the antithesis of theism. In other words Soviet Communism had to be Atheistic.

Atheism was the biggest building block in the foundational structure of Soviet Communism. If that is not being based on atheism, it is only a hair bredth distance from being so.



My Granparents and Parents lived parts of their life under Soviet Rule and many of my relatives lived their entire short lives under it. If they were still living and they were asked "what Communism was in a Soviet Block country?" their answer would be: Communism=atheism=communism=atheism or very similar words.

So this gives us another use for atheism, it gives us an example of what hell on earth can be, when people denounce the existence ot God(swt).

[KAding]

I was wondering what Atheism brings to society and the world. That theists don’t, I am curious on issues of spreading the idea of peace and joy to the world. does atheist spread those?

Some secular ideologies and beliefs do exactly that, yes. I wouldn't call them 'atheist' per se though, since atheism is just a lack of belief in God. These secular ideologies often clash with some religious scripture though. For example, I do not think liberalism and Islam are compatible. It might well be compatible with some Buddhist denominations, I'm not sure.

do they have large organisations that help the poor the suffering etc?

Absolutely. I think most charitable are secular. They exist to help humanity, not to please God. Don't forget that the countries with the biggest welfare states are somehow also the most secular.

Seeing everyone on here subscribing to atheism I’m sure it does bring something, surly being a very moderate theist(if I were a very adamant and by the book theist I would not be here) I’m missing out on the fun ??

Hard to say. You are who you are. Perhaps you would be very unhappy without Islam. I think I would be less happy when I would be obligated to follow Islamic beliefs and rulings.

Btw, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that being religious is a real choice. IMHO it is not. Either you believe or you don't. I could put a gun to my head and I still couldn't force myself to start believing in God. You either have faith in the existence of God or you don't.

what has it given you except the freedom to stop caring about your actions

That is a very negative view of 'atheism'. My view is different. Atheism provides us the chance to follow our own conscience. To live for what we think is right. Religious beliefs are generally too much based on the collective, too much on a belief of "one size fits all". For some people some religious rulings would undermine the 'pursuit for happiness'. For example, I would consider the Islamic ruling against music a serious detriment to my happiness.

But it goes beyond the individual. I think on a societal level the big monotheistic religions are too much about worshiping God and too little about serving humanity. It simply does not provide us with a model that can help society progress, to lift us to new heights, scientifically, morally, socially and politically. It is reactionary at its core.

Because when you look at it, a theist thinker and atheist thinker are quite the same and identical if not for a lack in the atheist, the lack of faith,

I don't understand what you are saying here. An 'atheist' thinker can embrace any kind of philosophy. If they were to embrace a liberal and individualistic philosophy they would certainly not be "quite the same and identical" to a 'theist' thinker.

because I tried to invision myself as an atheist, rejecting god and mocking him and his religion here and elsewhere regularly. and getting down the road, as my last breaths expires into the world.. and bearing the fear, in those lasts instants that I might have been wrong all these years.

That just shows that you are incapable of truly envisioning yourself as an atheist, since apparently in "those last instants" you still assume a God exists. IMHO an atheist has no more to fear from death than a believer, who will always be in doubt whether he has properly followed Gods instructions. For me personally, the only fear of death is in the process of dying. I think it is fairly safe to assume that being dead will be very much the same as before I was born.

[GuestFellow]

because I tried to invision myself as an atheist, rejecting god and mocking him and his religion here and elsewhere regularly.

:sl:

I find it slightly odd that an Atheist would mock God. I know many do and I had the pleasure of meeting one. Though from my experience some mock and hate God so much that I get the impression that they do acknowledge his existence.

[KAding]

Well its based on the political theory or system in which all property and wealth is owned in a classless society by all the members of that society. Atheism does play a role in Communism to some extent.

I would agree with that. State-endorsed atheism is part of the Communist belief system, but it isn't based on it.

[KAding]

:sl:

I find it slightly odd that an Atheist would mock God. I know many do and I had the pleasure of meeting one. Though from my experience some mock and hate God so much that I get the impression that they do acknowledge his existence.

In that case he wouldn't be an atheist of course. He probably just hates what he thinks God stands for. In other words, he hates certain religious doctrine. It is sometimes hard to keep the two apart, since obviously theists believe the doctrine to be 'produced' by God.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Welcome to the forum, Justufy. :)

You've asked a number of questions here. I'll see if I can give you my thoughts on them one at a time.

I was wondering what Atheism brings to society and the world.

This is a bit like asking what non-belief in fairies brings to the world. What should it bring? Atheism doesn't come equipped with moral guidance, dogmas and a sense of mission like religions do - it's a single metaphysical proposition.

That theists don’t, I am curious on issues of spreading the idea of peace and joy to the world. does atheist spread those?

Some atheists do, some, I suppose, don't. If you don't believe in any gods, you're an atheist. All other aspects of your life are irrelevant to that categorisation.

For what it's worth (and it's not much), I think I've included the word 'Peace' in every post I've made on this forum. But anyway...

do they have large organisations that help the poor the suffering etc?

There are many charities that are not explicitly religious, but I don't know of any that are distinctly atheist. I'm not sure why anyone would expect such a thing.

Seeing everyone on here subscribing to atheism I’m sure it does bring something, surly being a very moderate theist(if I were a very adamant and by the book theist I would not be here) I’m missing out on the fun ??

I could be wrong, but I don't think many people decide to become atheists because they think they'll be able to live some kind of guilt-free life of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll as a result. I think it's more likely that they've thought about the question, and decided which position makes most sense to them.

My questions is , and I’m curious:
because when you see it atheism is a choice to disconnect with God, what has that choice brought you atheists?

If someone chooses to "disconnect with God", that implies they believe there is a god there to disconnect with. A more accurate way of stating it would be "a choice to disconnect with belief in god".

What has atheism brought me? It's the end result of a process of thinking, not something I went out looking for in the hope that it would bring me inner peace. I suppose atheism for me is simply the thought that there's a very obvious reason why all religions seem to me to be obviously man-made, a relic from the earlier days of our species when we hadn't a clue about the most basic natural processes that to a large degree govern our lives.

what has it given you except the freedom to stop caring about your actions

Actions still have consequences, even if you don't believe in god! :hmm:

Or is it simply out of frustration of being blind to gods light. A prayer that has stayed unanswered...? A loved one that has departed in eternity? And of whose signs we can no longer perceive but in our hearts.

This is the "are you an atheist because you're just so unhappy?" question. I've never really understood this one. What is supposed to be the connection between mood and belief or non-belief in god?

Because when you look at it, a theist thinker and atheist thinker are quite the same and identical if not for a lack in the atheist, the lack of faith,

Yes. Why say it like it's a bad thing? :hiding:

because I tried to invision myself as an atheist, rejecting god and mocking him and his religion here and elsewhere regularly. and getting down the road, as my last breaths expires into the world.. and bearing the fear, in those lasts instants that I might have been wrong all these years.so, im asking.
just curiosity.

Well, what if you're wrong? If there's no god, then some portion of your life has been wasted. That may or may not be a big deal. But what if there is a god, and you've picked the wrong one?

You could end up in a :raging: situation. Just as you (perhaps) think I will.

Besides, there have been many, many atheists who have gone to their deaths without feeling to the need for a sudden conversion. It hasn't stopped religious people from creating myths about them, though.

Peace

[Justufy]

This is not only about what atheism is morally, atheism is either a lack of insight, or a lack of wanting to see, there is 2 types of atheists, the one who cannot see, and the one who does not want to see.

sure you can lead a full life as an ateist, but you do not bring nothing morally, you just surf on the moral codes of your society.
now how do you distinguish wright from wrong, you will not kill you will not steal because you know it is wrong, now why is that?
the awnser is that gods insuflated a moral code in every humans even in those who deny him.
and those morals are from god.

thus atheism seems stupidity.
when god can be proven with faith but also with reason.

[Justufy]

Well, what if you're wrong? If there's no god, then some portion of your life has been wasted. That may or may not be a big deal. But what if there is a god, and you've picked the wrong one?

You could end up in a situation. Just as you (perhaps) think I will.

Besides, there have been many, many atheists who have gone to their deaths without feeling to the need for a sudden conversion. It hasn't stopped religious people from creating myths about them, though

classical, I see you have some talent in the fallacious strawman arguments.
with your ad populum, calling to the majority is quite fallacious.
and I see the if there is no god trown there. is that your gut feeling? should we start a new religion based upon your gut feeling?

But what if there is a god, and you've picked the wrong one?

when you put your trust in god there can be no wrog awnsers. we are all madly in love with the same god no matter what the religion.

[Justufy]

Wherever we look trough the human world it becomes apparent that we as humans are living by a set of moral standards that allows us to live in a harmonious society among each others,

you cannot deny that moral standards exist they are factual, if none of these moral standards existed everything would be permitted so to speak of. Now let’s take a look at the nature of facts, Il start with this short phrase, It is a fact that john has a blue sweater, it is a fact that Robert has eaten spaghetti for lunch, for most facts there are physical tangible objects that make these facts true, Now let us look at Moral facts and what they implied, Moral facts are the following I have listed that permit us to live in a harmonious society,

for instance if we say it is a fact that we should end the death penalty, or if we say that it is a fact that we should feed the helpless and give to the poor, now it is apparent that nothing in the physical world can prove a moral fact, nothing physical here in this world can do so. This is because these facts do not describe anything tangible they are prescriptive.

They assume the forms of commands, things we ought to do. Now no one would argue that commands necessarily imply a commander. Just like I said in one of my previous posts, cause needs something that caused this, and something that exists cannot exist without something pre-existent, such is the case of commands, you need a commander for commands to exist, just like in the army, you need a general to lead his men, or else the men would be completely lost. Now this brings me to something interesting, now that it has been dealt with that moral facts are in fact commands, who gave these commands? We make moral decisions very frequently in our lives, even a non believer is confronted to these decisions’, and Morality is undeniable. A moral code is universal, everywhere in the world, people know that it is wrong to kill, everywhere in the world it is wrong to Robb your neighbour, morality has a universal form, and It has full powers over our lives it has a somewhat lawful power.

So now that it has been found that morality has absolute power on all humans regardless if you decide to be a moral man or not since it transcends all of us and is the ultimate power in the world. This proves to us that there is also a being that is above us and rules the world, it proves the existence of the inventor of morality so to speak of, a being that has instigated laws both physical and moral laws

[Ramadhan]

Well, what if you're wrong? If there's no god, then some portion of your life has been wasted. That may or may not be a big deal. But what if there is a god, and you've picked the wrong one?

You could end up in a :raging: situation. Just as you (perhaps) think I will.

Well, only abrahamaic religions have the concept of heaven and hell.
So, if we find out that there is actually God after we die, those who follow abrahamaic religions will have narrowed dramatically their odd of not getting in a hell.

If there is God, the biggest loser will be those who reject that God exists.
If there is no God, why do say people of religion have wasted portion of their life?
Are atheists truly more happy than people of religion? because that is what people are after in this world right?

[tetsujin]

Greetings Justufy,

My questions is , and I’m curious:
because when you see it atheism is a choice to disconnect with God, what has that choice brought you atheists?

I didn't choose atheism for any financial or social gain.

what has it given you except the freedom to stop caring about your actions

It hasn't given me, or anyone I know, the freedom to stop caring about our actions. Are you implying you only care about your actions because you believe in god?

Or is it simply out of frustration of being blind to gods light. A prayer that has stayed unanswered...? A loved one that has departed in eternity? And of whose signs we can no longer perceive but in our hearts.

You shouldn't believe in an idea just because you find it comforting. It should be true.

Because when you look at it, a theist thinker and atheist thinker are quite the same and identical if not for a lack in the atheist, the lack of faith,

Pretty big difference when that faith leads to a particular way of life.

because I tried to invision myself as an atheist, rejecting god and mocking him and his religion here and elsewhere regularly. and getting down the road, as my last breaths expires into the world.. and bearing the fear, in those lasts instants that I might have been wrong all these years.so, im asking.
just curiosity.

I find it hard to swallow simultaneously compulsory fear and love.

And with a gentle mind of pure heart.

Most best regards and considerations.

All the best,


Faysal

[tetsujin]

This is not only about what atheism is morally, atheism is either a lack of insight, or a lack of wanting to see, there is 2 types of atheists, the one who cannot see, and the one who does not want to see.

People who disagree with you are not always ignorant or stubborn.

sure you can lead a full life as an ateist, but you do not bring nothing morally, you just surf on the moral codes of your society.

That's not true. There are many atheists who will challenge the moral codes of their society.

now how do you distinguish wright from wrong, you will not kill you will not steal because you know it is wrong, now why is that?

What you are saying is that you have no good reason to prevent violent crimes other than the instructions you believe were given by god. Do you think any society would have made it far by raping and killing people at will? Do you need god to tell you that you shouldn't kill others? Do you believe that the golden rule as something brought to the world by the Abrahamic faiths?

the awnser is that gods insuflated a moral code in every humans even in those who deny him.
and those morals are from god.

You're assuming something that can't be test to be true or false.

thus atheism seems stupidity.
when god can be proven with faith but also with reason.

You haven't reasoned so far, maybe you could start. This is a blank slate, what's the proof for god's existence?


All the best,


Faysal

[tetsujin]

Well, only abrahamaic religions have the concept of heaven and hell.
So, if we find out that there is actually God after we die, those who follow abrahamaic religions will have narrowed dramatically their odd of not getting in a hell.

I don't know how you can say that. There have been literally thousands of concepts of god(s). The ancient Egyptians Book of the dead describes in no small detail what must be accomplished for the safe passage of a soul to the hereafter. There were many different concepts of the afterlife prior to the old testament.

Frankly it doesn't even matter if its not the particular lake of fire someone believes in, we all know of religions with alternate afterlife scenarios that are no more favourable.

If there is God, the biggest loser will be those who reject that God exists.
If there is no God, why do say people of religion have wasted portion of their life?
Are atheists truly more happy than people of religion? because that is what people are after in this world right?

That can't possibly be someone's basis for faith. If you have any integrity you couldn't possibly believe that uttering a few words daily would fool your creator. You either believe it or you don't. I'd rather be honest. If there is a punishment for honesty then so be it.

You also shouldn't believe something simply because it makes you happy. The truth matters. We really do want to know how much money we have in the bank, whether we have a cold or pneumonia, whether our spouse is faithful, and certainly whether we are right on the biggest question since man spoke. Those who trivialize it with pascal's wager betray their sincerity to themselves.


All the best,


Faysal

[Ramadhan]

I don't know how you can say that. There have been literally thousands of concepts of god(s). The ancient Egyptians Book of the dead describes in no small detail what must be accomplished for the safe passage of a soul to the hereafter. There were many different concepts of the afterlife prior to the old testament.

I never said there is no other concepts of gods. Of course there are countless concepts of gods.
But which other religions that have such strict concept of heaven and hell than abrahamaic religions?

That can't possibly be someone's basis for faith. If you have any integrity you couldn't possibly believe that uttering a few words daily would fool your creator. You either believe it or you don't. I'd rather be honest. If there is a punishment for honesty then so be it.

Never did I mention taking chances as the basis for faith or speculate about people's intention in choosing a faith.
What i did was comparing the logical outcomes of anyone's choice. The chances of what will happen to the believers and non-believers after we die. Never about the reason why they believe or not believe.

Why are you getting defensive and suddenly talking all over about what you believe or lack of it?

You also shouldn't believe something simply because it makes you happy.

What are you trying to say here?
Are trying to speculate that the believers believe because that's what makes them happy?

The truth matters. We really do want to know how much money we have in the bank, whether we have a cold or pneumonia, whether our spouse is faithful, and certainly whether we are right on the biggest question since man spoke. Those who trivialize it with pascal's wager betray their sincerity to themselves.

So you know the truth?
Care to enlighten the rest of humanity with the truth that you have been keeping?

[KAding]

This is not only about what atheism is morally, atheism is either a lack of insight, or a lack of wanting to see, there is 2 types of atheists, the one who cannot see, and the one who does not want to see.

I can never follow this argument about "not wanting to see". Either you believe there is a God or you don't. And then the next step is either believing a specific religion or not. Why would I not want to see the truth, especially if that truth is a matter of eternal hellfire or not! It doesn't make the least bit of sense to me.

sure you can lead a full life as an ateist, but you do not bring nothing morally, you just surf on the moral codes of your society.

That is not true. Many secular moral systems are continuously being refined and improved as new insights and thinkers debate it. I do not think it religious doctrine that brought us essential principles of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, individual liberty, human rights, the abolition of slavery, gender equality, animal rights, etc. There is not one secular moral code (and there isn't such a thing as an 'atheist' one!), but many are in my opinion miles ahead of the pre-medieval ones provided by the Abrahamic religions.

now how do you distinguish wright from wrong, you will not kill you will not steal because you know it is wrong, now why is that?

Reason! That is after all the whole point of moral philosophy, to which countless people have contributed. We can articulate some essential premises and develop a code from that. For me these premises are individual liberty in combination with the harm principle. Those tell me that killing and stealing are wrong. No divine code needed for that.

the awnser is that gods insuflated a moral code in every humans even in those who deny him.
and those morals are from god.

thus atheism seems stupidity.

Why, thank you ;).

when god can be proven with faith but also with reason.

I disagree.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

classical, I see you have some talent in the fallacious strawman arguments.
with your ad populum, calling to the majority is quite fallacious.
and I see the if there is no god trown there. is that your gut feeling? should we start a new religion based upon your gut feeling?

when you put your trust in god there can be no wrog awnsers. we are all madly in love with the same god no matter what the religion.

If you like, you could address the points I've made. That may be better than throwing around irrelevant philosophical terms that you don't appear to understand.

The choice is yours. :shade:

Peace

[Gator]

Atheism was the biggest building block in the foundational structure of Soviet Communism. If that is not being based on atheism, it is only a hair bredth distance from being so.

Communism was a social and political based system so to say that atheism was a founding doctrine is incorrect (no offense to your Grandparents).

As Marx saw it it was Religion/Church that had to be abolished. Religion was targeted because it was a political tool of those in power used to oppress the people. The Communist Manifesto metions only organized religion and does not metion God or Atheism.

[Woodrow]

Communism was a social and political based system so to say that atheism was a founding doctrine is incorrect (no offense to your Grandparents).

As Marx saw it it was Religion/Church that had to be abolished. Religion was targeted because it was a political tool of those in power used to oppress the people. The Communist Manifesto metions only organized religion and does not metion God or Atheism.

I see your point. But, to me that is like saying a Dietician only opposes establishments that sell fattening foods, while not opposing obesity.

[GuestFellow]

As Marx saw it it was Religion/Church that had to be abolished. Religion was targeted because it was a political tool of those in power used to oppress the people. The Communist Manifesto metions only organized religion and does not metion God or Atheism.

But it does prevent people from practising their religion. In North Korea Christians are persecuted for practising their faith. So in some countries Atheism does play a major role in Communist societies. Is this not oppressing people? O_o

[JaffaCake]

I was wondering what Atheism brings to society and the world. That theists don’t,

Objectivity?

I am curious on issues of spreading the idea of peace and joy to the world. does atheist spread those?

Some do, some don't, same as theists.

do they have large organisations that help the poor the suffering etc?

The Red Cross (as strange as that may seem).

Because when you look at it, a theist thinker and atheist thinker are quite the same and identical if not for a lack in the atheist, the lack of faith,

Exactly.

because I tried to invision myself as an atheist, rejecting god and mocking him and his religion here and elsewhere regularly.

I think you're confusing 'atheist' with 'belligerent a-hole'.

and getting down the road, as my last breaths expires into the world.. and bearing the fear, in those lasts instants that I might have been wrong all these years.

Are you certain you chose the right religion? How will you know until it's too late? That's the same problem.

I'm not worried at all.

[Gator]

But it does prevent people from practising their religion. In North Korea Christians are persecuted for practising their faith. So in some countries Atheism does play a major role in Communist societies. Is this not oppressing people? O_o

Definitely, Communist Dictatorships as practiced are F****ed up (even the theory is impractical).

I was just pointing out the fact it is a political motivation rather than some philosophical base and that it was not a "Basic foundation".

Just to clarify my position on things, people will use any reason (religion, atheism, ethnic, tribal, political, etc.) to justify being horrible to each other.

North Korea, the Taliban states are both repressive yet one is based on religion while the other is not. So religion alone isn't the problem.

[Justufy]

You haven't reasoned so far, maybe you could start. This is a blank slate, what's the proof for god's existence?

Ok let’s start with this: throughout the years philosophers and theologians have done a fine job of proving god using logic and reason, for example st-Thomas of Aquinas has provided 5 arguments in hi works summa theologia which I present to you from Wikipedia, Wikipedia il well vulgarised for the regular folk. I think Thomas Aquinas has done a fine job using concepts from both Aristotle and Plato for these arguments.


Some things are moved.
Everything that is moving is moved by a mover.
An infinite regress of movers is impossible.
Therefore, there is an unmoved mover from whom all motion proceeds.
This mover is what we call God.


Some things are caused.
Everything that is caused is caused by something else.
An infinite regress of causation is impossible.
Therefore, there must be an uncaused cause of all that is caused.
This causer is what we call God.

Many things in the universe may either exist or not exist. Such things are called contingent beings.
It is impossible for everything in the universe to be contingent, for then there would be a time when nothing existed, and so nothing would exist now, since there would be nothing to bring anything into existence, which is clearly false.
Therefore, there must be a necessary being whose existence is not contingent on any other being or beings.
This being is whom we call God.


Varying perfections of varying degrees may be found throughout the universe.
These degrees assume the existence of an ultimate standard of perfection.
Therefore, perfection must have a pinnacle.
This pinnacle is whom we call God.


All natural bodies in the world act toward ends.
These objects are in themselves unintelligent.
Acting toward an end is characteristic of intelligence.
Therefore, there exists an intelligent being that guides all natural bodies toward their ends.
This being is whom we call God.

[Justufy]

IMHO an atheist has no more to fear from death than a believer, who will always be in doubt

This is an emotional argument and is not valid. ''Im not afraid of there being no life after death'' Please refrain from using these fine peices of sophistry.:hiding:

[Justufy]

I think it is fairly safe to assume that being dead will be very much the same as before I was born.

What brings you to this assumption?

[Pygoscelis]

That just shows that you are incapable of truly envisioning yourself as an atheist, since apparently in "those last instants" you still assume a God exists. IMHO an atheist has no more to fear from death than a believer, who will always be in doubt whether he has properly followed Gods instructions. For me personally, the only fear of death is in the process of dying. I think it is fairly safe to assume that being dead will be very much the same as before I was born.

Indeed. Atheists literally have nothing to fear from death, because to the atheist death is nothing. If your "atheist" is on his death bed fearing hell... he isn't an atheist.

[Pygoscelis]

If there is God, the biggest loser will be those who reject that God exists.

From reading these holy books I see far more bits about God hating you worshiping false Gods than God hating you worshiping no God at all.

[Pygoscelis]

But it does prevent people from practising their religion. In North Korea Christians are persecuted for practising their faith. So in some countries Atheism does play a major role in Communist societies. Is this not oppressing people? O_o

I think this line of argument confuses atheism with religious freedom. The two are not related.

There are plenty of atheists out there who actually believe that religion is a good thing - for other people. Michael Shermer calls this "belief in belief" and it is very common. There is nothing inherently about atheism that pushes one to restrict the religious beliefs of others.

Also, note that many religions themselves explicitly forbid the worship of what they see as false gods thus restricting religious freedom.

[Uthman]

Greetings,

From reading these holy books I see far more bits about God hating you worshiping false Gods than God hating you worshiping no God at all.

In Islam, excessively following ones desires at the expense of what Allah has revealed is also a form of associating partners with Allah. In such a case, one is essentially submitting to their desires instead of submitting to Allah and, in the broad sense of the word, taking their desires as their 'God'. Thus, even atheists can be seen as worshipping a 'false God' from this perspective.

[JaffaCake]

Everything that is moving is moved by a mover.

Not everything that moves has a mover. Spontaneous radioactive decay changes one stationary particle into two particles moving in opposite direction.

Everything that is caused is caused by something else.

Again, spontaneous radioactive decay breaks this rule.

Therefore, there must be a necessary being whose existence is not contingent on any other being or beings.

First cause argument. Everything must be contingent except this special thing which we've chosen. More holes in that than a teabag.

These degrees assume the existence of an ultimate standard of perfection.

Entirely subjective.

All natural bodies in the world act toward ends.

A mistake in your perception of the world.

[Khaldun]

:sl:

If I might throw in a sie question [I do not mean to hijack the thread]

Is it just me or do alot of members notice an unusually how number of atheists on an Islamic discussion board?

What makes an atheist who denies the very exsistence of God to go out of his way and actually sign up on a forum like this? I mean if this forum wasnt an Islamic forum then I could have seen a reason, but since this is a purely Islamic Forum I am baffled. Maybe I am speaking about myself but I wouldnt sign up in an atheist forum because we disagree on the fundamentals. Or maybe atheist see it upon themselves to save mankind from the opium of the people?

[Trumble]

"IMHO an atheist has no more to fear from death than a believer, who will always be in doubt"

This is an emotional argument and is not valid. ''Im not afraid of there being no life after death'' Please refrain from using these fine peices of sophistry.:hiding:

It's not an 'argument' at all, emotional or otherwise; it's an opinion. Please refrain from using technical terms unless you actually understand what they mean. :hiding:

[Justufy]

you clearly misunderstand ALL of the five ways, offering simplistic rebuttals, let me rephrase argument number 3: According to Aristotle existing things are said to exist in act and in potency (power) This means that their essence is not made of exactly what they are at some point, but what they have in them to become, they also have the potential to become something entirely different, for example, gold has the potential to become a statue it also has the potential to become floor tiles therefore becoming something different in act, this is what potency is.

potency of beings also includes the possibility of not-being, because all things that exists have potency and the attributes of potency there must necessarily have been a time when nothing existed, In the time when nothing existed it s impossible to derive existence from non existence, even a thousand nothings cannot make the smallest something, this being said something must exist that is necessary in itself and thereby causes in all other things the necessity.

This argument supposes that the opponent holds that things have existed from eternity.

[Justufy]

you clearly misunderstand ALL of the five ways, offering simplistic rebuttals, let me rephrase argument number 3: According to Aristotle existing things are said to exist in act and in potency (power) This means that their essence is not made of exactly what they are at some point, but what they have in them to become, they also have the potential to become something entirely different, for example, gold has the potential to become a statue it also has the potential to become floor tiles therefore becoming something different in act, this is what potency is.

potency of beings also includes the possibility of not-being, because all things that exists have potency and the attributes of potency there must necessarily have been a time when nothing existed, In the time when nothing existed it s impossible to derive existence from non existence, even a thousand nothings cannot make the smallest something, this being said something must exist that is necessary in itself and thereby causes in all other things the necessity.
Edit:
And this all men know as God*
as the god concept does not hold any internal contradictions.

[KAding]

This is an emotional argument and is not valid. ''Im not afraid of there being no life after death'' Please refrain from using these fine peices of sophistry.:hiding:

I'm not following you. That was a reply to your own statement that "as my last breaths expires into the world.. and bearing the fear, in those lasts instants that I might have been wrong all these years.".

You were the one that started talking about fear, not me. How could me disagreeing with that view be any more an 'emotional argument' than your own assertion that you would still fear God even if you were envision yourself to be an atheist :hiding:?

[Justufy]

Not everything that moves has a mover. Spontaneous radioactive decay changes one stationary particle into two particles moving in opposite direction

you cannot use a theory that has been acquired using inductive reasoning to disprove another one that has been acquired with the same reasoning they are on a foot of equality.

[KAding]

What brings you to this assumption?

Being dead means not being conscious. I was not conscious before I was born. So I assume when I die I'll similarly will simply not be...ehm...conscious. I will no longer capable of experiencing anything.

But I have to admit, the concept of consciousness is difficult to grasp. What is it exactly? I suspect it is a product (or by-product?) of our brain. We cannot have consciousness when we don't have a body. That much clear, since our physical state determines whether we are conscious or not. Thus we cannot be conscious when we die.

I just don't know to be honest though. But that sounds most reasonable to me.

[KAding]

:sl:

If I might throw in a sie question [I do not mean to hijack the thread]

Is it just me or do alot of members notice an unusually how number of atheists on an Islamic discussion board?

What makes an atheist who denies the very exsistence of God to go out of his way and actually sign up on a forum like this? I mean if this forum wasnt an Islamic forum then I could have seen a reason, but since this is a purely Islamic Forum I am baffled. Maybe I am speaking about myself but I wouldnt sign up in an atheist forum because we disagree on the fundamentals. Or maybe atheist see it upon themselves to save mankind from the opium of the people?

The mere fact that I 'disagree with the fundamentals' is what attracts me to a forum like this. Surely you and I are both reasonable beings? How come we reach such different conclusions then? That baffles me. That is why I am here. To figure that out. I really don't think there is a reason beyond satisfying my personal interest on this subject.

So rest assured, I am not here to save you, nor do I think you need saving :D. I'm not really that altruistic ;).

[Justufy]

The mere fact that I 'disagree with the fundamentals' is what attracts me to a forum like this. Surely you and I are both reasonable beings? How come we reach such different conclusions then? That baffles me. That is why I am here. To figure that out. I really don't think there is a reason beyond satisfying my personal interest on this subject.

So rest assured, I am not here to save you, nor do I think you need saving :D. I'm not really that altruistic ;).

I think it would be possible to correlate Atheism on this board with some of the lowest IQ's.:hiding: Inductive reasoning has led me to this.:hiding:

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I think it would be possible to correlate Atheism on this board with some of the lowest IQ's.:hiding: Inductive reasoning has led me to this.:hiding:

Once again, welcome to the forum. It's refreshing to have someone so intelligent on board. :)

Peace

[Trumble]

you cannot use a theory that has been acquired using inductive reasoning to disprove another one that has been acquired with the same reasoning they are on a foot of equality.

I'm sorry, but that is complete gibberish. Or do you seriously claim, for example, that Newton's law of gravitation is 'on a foot of equality' with Ptolemy's idea that the Earth was at the centre of the universe because all things fell towards it!

I really would suggest you refrain on commenting about other people's IQs when it is quite clear you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about!

[KAding]

I think it would be possible to correlate Atheism on this board with some of the lowest IQ's.:hiding: Inductive reasoning has led me to this.:hiding:

That is not a nice thing to say :hmm:. And quite uncalled for!

I know you are new here, but this is not how we generally interact with each other on this forum.

[JaffaCake]

Maybe I am speaking about myself but I wouldnt sign up in an atheist forum because we disagree on the fundamentals. Or maybe atheist see it upon themselves to save mankind from the opium of the people?

You want people to believe what is true rather than what is false, yes? Same thing for me... you make Da'wah, I join an Islamic forum.

[JaffaCake]

you clearly misunderstand ALL of the five ways, offering simplistic rebuttals, let me rephrase argument number 3: According to Aristotle existing things are

If they only require a simple rebuttal why would I offer anything more?

An 800 year old theological argument based on 2000+ year old science and philosophy is not a formidable challenge to modern science.