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Uthman
11-13-2009, 06:46 PM
The alleged 9/11 mastermind will be transferred from Guantanamo to New York for a trial in which the death penalty will be sought, the US has confirmed.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four others would be tried in a civilian court near Ground Zero, the attorney general said.

Five other Guantanamo detainees would face military trials, Eric Holder said.

The move is part of US President Barack Obama's efforts to close Guantanamo, but some relatives of 9/11 victims say they oppose a federal court trial.

"Today I am announcing that the Department of Justice will pursue prosecution in federal court of the five individuals accused of conspiring to commit the 9/11 attacks," Mr Holder told a news conference.

"I fully expect to direct prosecutors to seek the death penalty against each of the alleged 9/11 conspirators."

'Fair and open'


Four men - the two Yemenis, a Saudi and a Pakistani-born Kuwaiti - will face trial alongside Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, accused of helping finance and plan the attacks of 11 September 2001 in which nearly 3,000 people were killed.

Responsibility for the case will go to the Southern District of New York, with proceedings taking place at a court not far from where the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center fell.

No date was given for a trial, but US media reports say Congress needs at least 45 days' notice before the detainees can be transferred to the US.

The five men had until now been facing prosecution at US military commissions in Guantanamo. The government had faced a 16 November deadline to decide how to proceed in their cases.

Mr Holder said he was confident that the defendants would get a fair trial that was "open to the public and open to the world".

Of the five detainees referred for military commission trials, one is Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, accused in connection with the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen.

'Unneccessary risk'


Speaking in Tokyo ahead of Mr Holder's announcement, Mr Obama said Khalid Sheikh Mohammed would face "most exacting demands of justice".

Mr Mohammed has been described by US investigators as "one of history's most infamous terrorists". They say he has admitted being responsible "from A to Z" for the 9/11 attacks.

Believed to be the number three al-Qaeda leader, he was captured in Pakistan in March 2003. He told a pre-trial hearing at Guantanamo in December 2008 that he wanted to plead guilty to all charges against him.

But intelligence memos released earlier this year revealed he had been subjected to harsh interrogation techniques including water-boarding on multiple occasions since his capture - potentially rendering some evidence inadmissible.

The decision to hold the trial in New York faces opposition from some lawmakers and relatives of those who died.

Congressmen Howard McKeon, the senior Republican on the House Armed Services Committee, said the decision would introduce "unnecessary risk to the citizens of New York".

But Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy, who chairs the Judiciary Committee, said the decision demonstrates "to the world that the most powerful nation on earth also trusts its judicial system".

The move is part of a White House bid to close Guantanamo by 22 January 2010.

Mr Obama's administration says it will try some detainees in US courts and repatriate or resettle others who are not perceived as a threat.

However, questions remain over the fate of those assessed as dangerous but who for legal reasons could not be prosecuted in a US court - prompting suggestions that the deadline will slip.

Paul Reynolds, BBC World Affairs correspondent

The decision to prosecute in a federal court is a major step towards President Obama's target of closing Guantanamo by 22 January. However, problems remain.

About 70 prisoners are in limbo. There is not enough useable evidence for a military or a civilian trial yet no other country will so far take them and release is seen as too dangerous.

Guantanamo Bay, as the attorney general indicated, is therefore unlikely to close by the deadline.

The announcement also confirmed military commissions will go ahead in some cases, so the move to civilian trials is not a general one.

It remains to be seen whether the trial will accept any alleged confession by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as it might have been based on water-boarding, or whether, in a courtroom close to Ground Zero, he will seek to glory in the attacks.

Source:BBC News
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جوري
11-13-2009, 06:55 PM
Is this some kind of a joke?
.. I like the perfect comedic timing though..

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AlHoda
11-13-2009, 07:24 PM
Terrorist give moslims a bad name, I can't believe there are such people in this world. :(
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جوري
11-13-2009, 07:26 PM
Muslims aren't behind 911 it is an inside job and it is no wonder that the trial is 10 yrs later, enough to cement the act in people's minds but not the facts of the matter..

:wa:
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OurIslamic
11-13-2009, 07:28 PM
It's been a while...
Reply

GuestFellow
11-13-2009, 07:30 PM
Wow I think I was ten when I heard about the 9/11 attacks. I'm 18 now O___o

I wonder why they had taken so long...
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AlHoda
11-13-2009, 07:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Muslims aren't behind 911 it is an inside job and it is no wonder that the trial is 10 yrs later, enough to cement the act in people's minds but not the facts of the matter..

:wa:
I don't want to insult muslims, but there is a possibility that some extemist were behind it.
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GuestFellow
11-13-2009, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AlHoda
I don't want to insult muslims, but there is a possibility that some extemist were behind it.
I'm not entirely sure myself what actually happened. I rather not jump to conclusions. I guess in time we'll find out.
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AlHoda
11-13-2009, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Wow I think I was ten when I heard about the 9/11 attacks. I'm 18 now O___o

I wonder why they had taken so long...
They were too busy, insulting,attacking,humiliating the muslim world, :raging:
btw, I was eight when it happened, saw it on tv
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OurIslamic
11-13-2009, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AlHoda
I don't want to insult muslims, but there is a possibility that some extemist were behind it.
Extremists aren't Muslims. They've created their own distorted version of Islam.
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جوري
11-13-2009, 07:33 PM

well if your passport can survive the fire the bombs err fire that brought down two buildings and the people therein, then I guess there is a possibility of anything..

:wa:
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OurIslamic
11-13-2009, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

well if your passport can survive the fire the bombs err fire that brought down two buildings and the people therein, then I guess there is a possibility of anything..

:wa:
Interesting picture.
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AlHoda
11-13-2009, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I'm not entirely sure myself what actually happened. I rather not jump to conclusions. I guess in time we'll find out.
:sl:
I suppose so, only Allah (swt) knows. (btw) are you really 18, I thought you were older :statisfie
:wa:
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AlHoda
11-13-2009, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by OurIslamic
Extremists aren't Muslims. They've created their own distorted version of Islam.
:sl:I know, but non-muslims they appear as 'muslims' so they do give us muslims a bad name.
:wa:
:statisfie
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GuestFellow
11-13-2009, 07:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
well if your passport can survive the fire the bombs err fire that brought down two buildings and the people therein, then I guess there is a possibility of anything..
:wa:
Interesting picture. Sorry my memory fails me. Was it not 3 buildings that were destroyed\/ :/

format_quote Originally Posted by AlHoda
I suppose so, only Allah (swt) knows. (btw) are you really 18, I thought you were older
Well I'm not surprised to hear that LOL.
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OurIslamic
11-13-2009, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AlHoda
:sl:I know, but non-muslims they appear as 'muslims' so they do give us muslims a bad name.
:wa:
:statisfie
That's a sad fact in life.
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جوري
11-13-2009, 07:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Interesting picture. Sorry my memory fails me. Was it not 3 buildings that were destroyed\/ :/



Well I'm not surprised to hear that LOL.
They don't like to mention the pentagon because well there is the case of the missing plane and all-- a bit mysterious for the cave dwellers who hijacked the planes with plastic knives..



but in 20 yrs a re-trial will resurface with less facts and more convictions I am sure...

:wa:
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rpwelton
11-13-2009, 08:32 PM
Actually it was 3 buildings, not including the Pentagon: WTC 7 was completely demolished and remains the most controversial collapse out of all 3.
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Humbler_359
11-13-2009, 08:53 PM
Based on my research, it is confirmed 9/11 was INSIDE JOB AND WELL-PLAN in order to gain world sympathy and expand military on Muslims world. Everyone will blame on innocent Muslims. Why? Muslims are unable to speak up in front of the world, they choose to silence.

However, billion Muslims worldwide including us and some Non-Muslims are aware of what's going on and will not silence anymore. US's secret plan (for New World Order) is FAILED, no question. :D
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GuestFellow
11-13-2009, 09:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
Actually it was 3 buildings, not including the Pentagon: WTC 7 was completely demolished and remains the most controversial collapse out of all 3.
I don't think any plane hit that building O___o
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rpwelton
11-13-2009, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I don't think any plane hit that building O___o
That's why it's the most controversial. Only a few pieces of debris hit it, but it came down like a textbook controlled demolition.

What's even more unbelievable is that the guy who had all these buildings under lease just purchased new "terrorism" insurance the summer before the attacks, and then after the buildings went down, he tried to get paid for 2 separate acts of terrorism (I think a total of something like $7 billion for both). I don't remember if he actually got paid that much, or if they just counted it as one.
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aamirsaab
11-13-2009, 09:09 PM
:sl:
This guy is so not getting a fair trial. I mean come on, are the jury really NOT going to find him guilty?
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Uthman
11-13-2009, 09:11 PM
In quotes: US 9/11 trial reactions
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جوري
11-13-2009, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
This guy is so not getting a fair trial. I mean come on, are the jury really NOT going to find him guilty?
I am sure they are searching for a 'Jury of His Peers' as we speak :hmm:
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Justufy
11-13-2009, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Is this some kind of a joke?
.. I like the perfect comedic timing though..

I think that it is preferable for them to be tried in a federal court rather than in a military court, the latter being much more strict, now they benefit constitutional rights. Moreover they could have just let them rot in Guantanamo bay forever. You shall agree?
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Ar-RaYYan
11-13-2009, 10:42 PM
Believed to be the number three al-Qaeda leader, he was captured in Pakistan in March 2003. He told a pre-trial hearing at Guantanamo in December 2008 that he wanted to plead guilty to all charges against him.
Anyone would plead guilty to anything if they are totured.

what is the point of wasting tax-payers money when in the end we all know that he and the others will be given the harshest punishment regardless how biased the evidence against them are.
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جوري
11-13-2009, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
I think that it is preferable for them to be tried in a federal court rather than in a military court, the latter being much more strict, now they benefit constitutional rights. Moreover they could have just let them rot in Guantanamo bay forever. You shall agree?
I don't think Guantanamo should have been all together..
Muslims don't stand a fair trial in the U.S.. folks want to see them guilty because they want a scape goat, so beyond rotting they'll probably face the death penalty.. nonetheless, I believe in a higher justice so even if they don't see it in that court, surely they'll see it else where..

and Allah swt knows best

:wa:
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Supreme
11-13-2009, 11:01 PM
I seriously hope the murderous psycopaths on trial get the harshest possible penalty for such inhumane acts. My prayers are with the families of the victims of 9/11.
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جوري
11-13-2009, 11:11 PM
I seriously hope those behind 9/11 get exposed in this life and receive harshest punishment in this life and the hereafter .. my prayers and thoughts go to the million and a half victims of Iraq who died a result of this abomination, to all the folks suffering in Afghanistan, Palestine, Chechnya, Bosnia, and every where there is Muslim suffering as a consequence of imperialist and war mongering turds looking to inherit and exploit others!
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Fishman
11-13-2009, 11:11 PM
So, mass murderers are sent to New York to get a trial, whilst all the random farmers and confused kids just stay locked up indefinitely? Hmm, I love the smell of good ol' American justice!
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GuestFellow
11-13-2009, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ar-RaYYan
Anyone would plead guilty to anything if they are totured.
:sl:

Torture never guarantees anything. It is immoral and inhumane. Suspects are innocent until proven guilty. No harm should be inflicted upon them. I see this ''war on terror'' as a form of revenge.

Condaleeza Rice, Dick Cheeney and George Bush should be put on trial for war crimes.
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Supreme
11-13-2009, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
So, mass murderers are sent to New York to get a trial, whilst all the random farmers and confused kids just stay locked up indefinitely? Hmm, I love the smell of good ol' American justice!
Indeed. Somehow, the US system is too harsh, but the UK system too moderate. There needs to be a compromise.

As a liberal, I don't usually condone the death penalty; however, in the case of these terrorists, I could think of nothing more suitable than a painless injection to send them to hell.
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جوري
11-13-2009, 11:34 PM
You in fact echo the American sentiment so well, that I am rather glad you have shared your opinion here with us, you embody the typical couch potato glued to his TV ready to imbue whatever **** is dished out to him, and that is exactly another reason why there is no such thing as justice in America or a 'Jury of anyone's peers' we all know the kind of hatred these clods off the street walk into the court with, I don't even know why they should bother waste our tax money on this sham. forced confessions and pre-judged trials are a waste of everyone's time and money!

perhaps it is by way of a public purge, so the sick and psychotic can abreact in an open tent charge admission type fashion!~
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Supreme
11-13-2009, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You in fact echo the American sentiment so well, that I am rather glad you have shared your opinion here with us, you embody the typical couch potato glued to his TV ready to imbue whatever **** is dished out to him, and that is exactly another reason why there is no such thing as justice in America or a 'Jury of anyone's peers' we all know the kind of hatred these clods off the street walk into the court with, I don't even know why they should bother waste our tax money on this sham. forced confessions and pre-judged trials are a waste of everyone's time and money!

perhaps it is by way of a public purge, so the sick and psychotic can abreact in an open tent charge admission type fashion!~

Are you referring to moi?

If it doesn't match your conspiracy theories and overt hatred for the West, I must be doing something right! Sorry if I dislike people who have cut short the lives of three thousand others, I think it's called (oh what's it called again?)- oh yeah, it's called having morals.
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جوري
11-13-2009, 11:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Are you referring to moi?

If it doesn't match your conspiracy theories and overt hatred for the West, I must be doing something right! Sorry if I dislike people who have cut short the lives of three thousand others, I think it's called (oh what's it called again?)- oh yeah, it's called having morals.
I don't see how it is a 'conspiracy theory' when it is all out in the open? engineers, architects, physicists, have all spoken out on the matter..
http://www.ae911truth.org/
perhaps if you'd quite burying your head in the sand and searching for a scape goat you too might learn how to distinguish fact from fiction?

Sorry I too dislike people who cut short the lives of millions, including frank rape and torture which goes unmentioned and unpunished...

Does a double blind hypocrisy nullify itself? is that what you call 'having morals'? funny stuff!
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Justufy
11-13-2009, 11:57 PM
I don't see how it is a 'conspiracy theory' when it is all out in the open? engineers, architects, physicists, have all spoken out on the matter..
http://www.ae911truth.org/
I’m sorry this doesn’t hold water :heated: on the same scale as the ‘’moon landing being a hoax’’ theory... I think you are mistaking on this one... Perhaps collecting your information from more reliable sources?

All this with deepest respect.
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Supreme
11-13-2009, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't see how it is a 'conspiracy theory' when it is all out in the open? engineers, architects, physicists, have all spoken out on the matter..
http://www.ae911truth.org/
perhaps if you'd quite burying your head in the sand and searching for a scape goat you too might learn how to distinguish fact from fiction?

Sorry I too dislike people who cut short the lives of millions, including frank rape and torture which goes unmentioned and unpunished...

Does a double blind hypocrisy nullify itself? is that what you call 'having morals'? funny stuff!
The victims were responsible for millions of deaths?

Do you have a source from a reputable news company and/or politician, or am I going to have to rely on conspiratists websites and YouTube videos to get the 'facts' (lol).

Call me old fashioned, but I do believe in the Holocaust, I don't believe in the moon hoax conspiracy and I don't believe aliens visited Rosewell in the 1950s! My deductions come from a number of things, most prominent of them evidence. And websites including conspiracies devised by pensioners with nothing better to do on a Friday evening down the pub do not count as evidence, and are frankly a waste of time! I think it's called (oh what do they call it again?)- oh yes, having an education.

A conspiracy theorist will challenge any established fact, whether it be the world is round or that there are terrorists out there who will kill. A conspiracy theorist is one who will try and convince themselves and others that their left foot is actually their right foot, and that the consensus that it is their left foot is just a hoax.
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جوري
11-14-2009, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
The victims were responsible for millions of deaths?
How did you conclude that the victims were responsible for millions of death from what I wrote? It really isn't that difficult to understand, look at the Muslim casualties in such countries as iraq a direct result of the wars started because of this attack!
Do you have a source from a reputable news company and/or politician, or am I going to have to rely on conspiratists websites and YouTube videos to get the 'facts' (lol).
I have included a link above, did you miss it along while misconstruing what I wrote? If that makes you feel better by all means!

Call me old fashioned, but I do believe in the Holocaust, I don't believe in the moon hoax conspiracy and I don't believe aliens visited Rosewell in the 1950s! My deductions come from a number of things, most prominent of them evidence. And websites including conspiracies devised by pensioners with nothing better to do on a Friday evening down the pub do not count as evidence, and are frankly a waste of time! I think it's called (oh what do they call it again?)- oh yes, having an education.
moon hoaxes, aliens or believing in holocausts are a complete nonsequitur to the topic, I have no idea what you are driveling about? .... until you can discuss a topic on a level can you expect a response.. I don't like wasting my time on puerile jokers with a keyboard

all the best
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جوري
11-14-2009, 12:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
I’m sorry this doesn’t hold water :heated: on the same scale as the ‘’moon landing being a hoax’’ theory... I think you are mistaking on this one... Perhaps collecting your information from more reliable sources?

All this with deepest respect.
I don't know what is reliable in your opinion, fox news? you have neither offered a detailed rebuttal to counter the numerous questionable facts and doubts surrounding that day, nor have you discussed why it is akin to a moon landing?
Expressing an opinion or a personal belief isn't akin to dispensing with facts..
You are entitled to your beliefs...

with deepest respect back of course

:wa:
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GuestFellow
11-14-2009, 12:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
That's why it's the most controversial. Only a few pieces of debris hit it, but it came down like a textbook controlled demolition.

What's even more unbelievable is that the guy who had all these buildings under lease just purchased new "terrorism" insurance the summer before the attacks, and then after the buildings went down, he tried to get paid for 2 separate acts of terrorism (I think a total of something like $7 billion for both). I don't remember if he actually got paid that much, or if they just counted it as one.
:sl:

9/11 third tower mystery 'solved'

I found this link...I thought I should post it if anyone was interested in reading it. I'll read it later...
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Supreme
11-14-2009, 12:19 AM
How did you conclude that the victims were responsible for millions of death from what I wrote? It really isn't that difficult to understand, look at the Muslim casualties in such countries as iraq a direct result of the wars started because of this attack
You were implying that because millions of people have been killed, the 9/11 victims deserved to die.

I have included a link above, did you miss it along while misconstruing what I wrote? If that makes you feel better by all means!
Yes, but I asked for a source from a reputable news company or politician- the site is from neither. As a historian, I take such sources very seriously. I mean, it could be run by... I don't know... puerile jokers with keyboards perhaps?

moon hoaxes, aliens or believing in holocausts are a complete nonsequitur to the topic, I have no idea what you are driveling about? .... until you can discuss a topic on a level can you expect a response.. I don't like wasting my time on puerile jokers with a keyboard
Usually yes, but seeing as you refuse to acknowledge such established facts that also exist for the Holocaust, moon landings and Roswell, you may as well not believe in anything. Human ignorance, however, is also an established fact, and I suppose it is something I will have to deal with.

By denying such evidence, you are making a mockery of the victims of 9/11.
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Justufy
11-14-2009, 12:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't know what is reliable in your opinion, fox news? you have neither offered a detailed rebuttal to counter the numerous questionable facts and doubts surrounding that day, nor have you discussed why it is akin to a moon landing?
Expressing an opinion or a personal belief isn't akin to dispensing with facts..
You are entitled to your beliefs...

with deepest respect back of course

:wa:

For starters the evidence is very weak... I have to go pick up my Daughter at her karate courses, I will give futher reasons when I get back. sit tight :statisfie

:wa:
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جوري
11-14-2009, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
You were implying that because millions of people have been killed, the 9/11 victims deserved to die.
No, that isn't what I have claimed either, although it is becoming obvious to me why you are christian, as you need that type of skewed understanding to turn a man into god or make 3 to equal 1



Yes, but I asked for a source from a reputable news company or politician- the site is from neither. As a historian, I take such sources very seriously. I mean, it could be run by... I don't know... puerile jokers with keyboards perhaps?
Does being a historian make you like wise a scientist and a master of the field? politics is written by politicians not scientists. If you want technical details, eye witness, and recorded facts on camera as they happened, then that is your source, amongst many others by the way, sure to be found by you equally questionable, it is a matter of personal conviction than established facts!


Usually yes, but seeing as you refuse to acknowledge such established facts that also exist for the Holocaust, moon landings and Roswell, you may as well not believe in anything. Human ignorance, however, is also an established fact, and I suppose it is something I will have to deal with.
You don't believe in area 17 of Brodmann though it is a fact yet believe that god prayed to himself in the garden of Gethsemane and forsake himself the next day anyway.. it is a wondrous world..
what can I say, ignorance is indeed an established fact, and thank you for hammering in that point by being you!
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جوري
11-14-2009, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
For starters the evidence is very weak... I have to go pick up my Daughter at her karate courses, I will give futher reasons when I get back. sit tight :statisfie

:wa:
you do that!

:w:
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Supreme
11-14-2009, 12:49 AM
No, that isn't what I have claimed either, although it is becoming obvious to me why you are christian, as you need that type of skewed understanding to turn a man into god or make 3 to equal 1
Ohh, touche touche!

Does being a historian make you like wise a scientist and a master of the field? politics is written by politicians not scientists. If you want technical details, eye witness, and recorded facts on camera as they happened, then that is your source, amongst many others by the way, sure to be found by you equally questionable, it is a matter of personal conviction than established facts!
Yup, I didn't think you'd be able to produce a source either. A shame, but nonetheless anticipated!

You don't believe in area 17 of Brodmann though it is a fact yet believe that god prayed to himself in the garden of Gethsemane and forsake himself the next day anyway.. it is a wondrous world..
what can I say, ignorance is indeed an established fact, and thank you for hammering in that point by being you!
Same old persistent trash. I know when someone is loosing an argument when they avidly change the subject, as I have done it before when I am loosing. If you're trying to attack Christianity, it's not working. If you're trying to defend your case, it's not working. If you're trying to convince others of your perverse theories, that too, you've guessed it, isn't working.
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جوري
11-14-2009, 12:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Ohh, touche touche!
Indeed!



Yup, I didn't think you'd be able to produce a source either. A shame, but nonetheless anticipated!
Selective blindness is always good, just not on the road!

Same old perennial trash. I know when someone is loosing an argument when they avidly change the subject, as I have done it before when I am loosing. If you're trying to attack Christianity, it's not working. If you're trying to defend your case, it's not working. If you're trying to convince others of your perverse theories, the too, you've guessed it, isn't working.
What is that? nothing if substance to impart, unable to controvert slap you in the face evidence? can't find a link that is staring you in the face? misconstrue words so overtly written? Yeah.. that is what I thought..
go pray to man/god for some wisdom..

peace be with you
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Justufy
11-14-2009, 01:58 AM
oh yes, having an education.
I don’t think it is fair to assume someone has no education just because they disagree with you, from the light of gossamers posts she seems to be pretty educated, but this does not keep us from mistakes sometimes as believing in this 9/11 conspiracy clearly is. Perhaps this belief was influenced partly by emotions but in all cases if we look carefully this conspiracy becomes a huge pile of -------s, first of all because no reliable and media or politicians have endorsed it.

The site you provided does not answer these criteria.
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جوري
11-14-2009, 02:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
I don’t think it is fair to assume someone has no education just because they disagree with you, from the light of gossamers posts she seems to be pretty educated, but this does not keep us from mistakes sometimes as believing in this 9/11 conspiracy clearly is. Perhaps this belief was influenced partly by emotions but in all cases if we look carefully this conspiracy becomes a huge pile of -------s, first of all because no reliable and media or politicians have endorsed it.

The site you provided does not answer these criteria.
Thanks, but in your mind, are politicians dispensers of truth? I don't think they even bother cover their lies!

Why Politicians Have to Lie

9 December, 2006
Politicians and Used Car Salespersons

There are some occupations whose members we almost expect to be dishonest. For example, politicians and used car salesmen.
Used car salesmen (and saleswomen, but I think most of them are men) tend to be dishonest because car buyers only buy cars very occasionally, and a car is a big ticket item. The salesman has an advantage over the buyer, because he is selling cars all the time, and he can make a career out of learning all the tricks and schemes for ripping his customers off. The large size of each transaction means that it's worth putting significant effort into extracting maximum profit from every sale.
Similar logic applies to other salespeople who sell big ticket items to buyers who buy those items very infrequently.
What's different about politicians, as compared to used car salesmen, is that although they are often "selling" something, their communications are one-to-many, rather than one-to-one. Even when a politician talks one-to-one with a television reporter, really they are talking to the television audience.
With such a large audience, it should be so much harder to tell lies and get away with it. The words and actions of politicians are subject to intense scrutiny by many commentators and observers, all supposedly acting to serve the general public's desire to know what there is to know about their politicians.
And yet, despite all this scrutiny and commentary, and the large audience, politicians lie, and they lie persistently. The car salesperson lies because there is a good chance that the buyer fails to see through some of the lies. But the politician lies and keeps on lying, even though the audience knows that the politicians are lying. Why is this? If we know that politicians are lying, why don't we throw them out and get better ones that don't lie?
Politicians are Lying to us, but they are also Lying for us.

The reason that politicians lie so much is not because they are pathological liars (or at least not just because they are pathological liars), it is because we expect too much of them. In the first instance, we expect them to take political positions. A political position is a position intended to appeal to a particular constituency. But we also expect politicians to take moral positions.
So what's wrong with that? Isn't morality a good thing? (by definition?) Unfortunately, morality and politics are in conflict, because morality and politics must appeal to different portions of your audience. Morality is something that almost everyone agrees on, because the whole point of morality is to lay down the ground rules for a society. It's difficult to put a precise number on it, but I would say that a moral proposition is only really "moral" if at least 90% of people in a society agree with it.
Majority Politics

One would assume that getting 90% of people to agree with you can't be a bad thing, especially if you're a politician who wants as many people to agree with you as possible.
But it doesn't work like that. A political position that appeals to 90% of the population is a failed political position. Politics is never about getting everyone on your side – it's about getting a majority of people on your side.
The competitive nature of politics encourages politicians to appeal to the smallest majority that they need to in order to gain power. In a democracy this usually means that any percentage more than 50%, for example, 51%, is enough, although a smaller percentage can be sufficient if a three-way situation develops (but three-way situations don't last in the long run, because the two losers will always be tempted to join forces if they can). In a non-democracy a politician can make their case to any constituency that has the power and influence required to maintain control over a society – which may or may not need to be more than half the population.
The first reason that a politician appeals to the smallest majority possible is that this maximises the benefits that the politician can promise to that majority. The second reason is that the politician needs to spread the disadvantages of their policies over the largest possible minority of non-supporters. In other words, if you try to appeal to too large a constituency, the size of the minority that you can screw is too small, which limits what you can steal from them, and the benefits passed onto your target constituency will be spread too thinly.
This logic in itself does not require anyone to lie. Every politician can choose a majority of supporters and a minority of non-supporters and openly promise to benefit the majority by screwing the minority.
But, as it happens, we expect our politicians to be morally upright and to express moral positions that are regarded as morally correct, which means they are expected to state moral positions that are agreed with by at least 90% of people in society, because if the number of people in agreement is less than 90% then it isn't a moral position.
Moral Majorities versus Political Majorities

And that's the cause of the conflict: 51% isn't equal to 90%. To get the votes, if you're a politician, you must take a position that clearly benefits the 51%, and to be morally upright you must take a position that is agreeable to 90%, and you must take both of these positions simultaneously.
Luckily for you, although the 51% expect you to take a moral position, they don't mind if you do so dishonestly. Indeed your supporters will assist you to resolve this conflict – by expecting and tolerating political doublespeak. They will expect you to lie about the morality of your political platform, while remaining sensitive to whether or not your platform benefits them. They will expect you to use language which is deceptive and confusing in order to express positions which have the appearance of morality yet have the reality of exploitation and transfer of wealth and power.
So why bother with morality at all, if it's just something that politicians lie about? If morality counted for nothing at all, then politics would be the majority finding a minority to screw without constraint, and that would be it. In other words, politicians would select a target group, seize their property, round them up, send them all to special camps, and leave them to either die or escape as refugees to a neighbouring country. Or maybe just kill all of them.
This is the politics of genocide and civil war. It's ugly, yet it's a logical consequence of the logic of politics.
However, we are not all living in the middle of civil wars. There must be something that constrains the sharp edge of politics. And that something is morality. In other words, morality does count for something, and it's not just a sham.
The Two Faces of Morality

We can consider morality as a philosophical abstraction, or we can consider it from a purely pragmatic point of view.
Suppose for example that you're a politician, and you adopt a political platform of civil war and genocide which offers apparent benefits to an identified majority of supporters. Why might the potential beneficiaries of your platform decline to accept its benefits?
Philosophically, we can state a moral objection in terms of an abstract principle – it is unconscionable to better yourself by exploiting others. Of course morality is somewhat elastic, and it can be hard to determine what counts as "exploitation" and what doesn't, and some people will go further than others in order to serve their own interests. But there are usually limits, and those limits usually prevent the majority from selecting a target minority and killing them all.
Pragmatically, we can point out that if the majority attempts to screw the minority, the minority may fight back. The minority may fight back quite viciously, especially if they have nothing to lose. Even if the majority eventually wins the war, they will be worse off than if the war never happened at all.
Or will they?
The Short Run and the Long Run

If Group A is 60% of the population of a country X, and they fight Group B which is the other 40%, and Group A kills all of Group B, but while they are being killed Group B kills the same number of people from Group A, then in the end there will just be 1/3 of the original Group A left (i.e. 20% of the original total population of country X). Can you be said to win a civil war if more than half your side is dead?
In the short run it seems like a disaster for both sides, but in the long run, Group A has won, because they can use all the resources of country X, and they can recover lost population by breeding, all without having to compete with any members of Group B (who, remember, are all dead).
So if we judge success in the long run, even a brutal war that kills almost everyone on both sides can still have a winner.
However this conclusion, that every civil war has a winner, depends on one assumption: that external forces can be ignored. But of course there is more than one country in the world, and our hypothetical country X will have neighbours. If most of the inhabitants of country X kill each other, and the infrastructure of country X is destroyed, then country Y which is next door to country X may decide to take advantage of country X's weakness and invade it and take all country X's resources for itself. And if the inhabitants of country Y have not themselves been recently fighting a civil war, then they will be internally stronger and they will be better positioned to fight and win an external war (against country X for example).
First Pick Your Minority

There are other difficulties (besides moral considerations) for the politician who wants to gain power by exploiting a vulnerable minority. One is that the minority has to be relatively inelastic in its membership. If the minority is defined in a way that makes it easy to leave or join the group, then a policy based on victimising that minority won't be very successful – because its members will all leave the group.
Another problem is that the minority has to be not too entangled with the majority that is benefiting from the screwing of the minority. For example, a policy of benefiting men at the expense of women is less likely to win political acclaim, because the biggest source of happiness in most people's lives comes from man-to-woman relationships. If you take from the women to give to the men (or vice versa), you're not going to achieve any net benefit for either party, and even if women don't get to vote, their male relatives and partners will disapprove of policies that disrupt relationships between the two sexes (and we must remember that in any give/take relationship, there is usually a net loss such that the amount given is less than the amount taken away).
In practice, the following types of minority can be effectively targeted as victims of a political policy:

  • Members of a given race
  • Members of a particular religion
  • The poorest and weakest members of society
  • The richest and most powerful members of society

Over time, Western democracies have moved towards using abstract criteria of wealth and power to choose political consitituencies, i.e. the last two items rather than the first two, and this corresponds to the "left"/"right" polarisation that we have all come to know and love as the basis of politics in modern Western democracies.
Policies based on explicit racial, religious or other ethnic fashion have somewhat gone "out of fashion", although in many countries there are major correlations between ethnic group and economic status, sometimes for historical reasons (i.e. one race screwed the other race in the past), which means that the racial aspect of politics never completely disappears, even in those countries where everyone likes to think of themselves as explicitly "anti-racist".
When it comes to the conflict between politics and morality, the left/right polarisation has a corresponding moral polarisation, based mostly on uncertainty about whether those worse off "deserve" their fate. If we could study every person's individual circumstances, we might decide that some do deserve their fate and other's don't. But political policies are necessarily based on averages, and everyone has a different opinion on how much the poorer and the richer in general deserve their current economic status. And most people have opinions that are conveniently consistent with their own personal economic interests (and which therefore determine their voting decisions).
Democracies and Non-Democracies

As I mentioned above, in a democracy a 51% majority is enough to get power. In a non-democracy it is less clear what the required minimum is. In practice there is usually some minimum number of supporters required to maintain power by force. The very clever dictator can arrange things so that everyone else is scared to challenge him, and everyone one is scared not to dob in those who look likely to threaten their leader, but such arrangements can be fragile, and a dictator's position is more robust if there is some substantial group within society who are clear beneficiaries of the dictator's dictatorship.
Which means that even dictators have to play politics, because they have to advertise the benefits of their political policies to their target constituency.
It also means that dictators have to adopt a facade of morality, just like "real" politicians do, and for much the same reasons. If a dictator openly admits the immorality of his rule, then that increases the chances that the people will rise up and depose him.
Hope For World Peace

Many ideas have been put forward for creating everlasting world peace, including:

  • Solving poverty
  • Making all countries democratic
  • All joining the same religion
  • Getting rid of religion altogether
  • Racial interbreeding
  • Forming a world government

The problem with all these schemes is that they ignore the fundamental logic of war and politics, which is that if a majority can screw a minority, then in the longer term, the majority is better off. Even if poverty is solved and all countries are democratic and we all belong to the same religion or to no religion and we all have the same colour skin, people will still be looking for ways to better themselves at the expense of others, and politicians will be looking for ways to identify a majority group which can better itself at the expense of a remaining minority.
As for world government, there's no particular reason to believe that it will be any more effective at preventing war than any other kind of government. The only difference under a world government is that there will no longer be any distinction between "civil" war and "world" war.
And if we think that not having a world government will prevent a world war, then we are also mistaken, because countries inevitably tend to group themselves into friendly alliances, and today's friendly alliance is tomorrow's defensive military alliance, and so on and so on. (And there will always be some "evil" threatening alliance that "needs" to be confronted and dealt with.)
Is There Any Hope At All?

The basic constraint of biology is that winners win the evolutionary race and losers lose and we are living on a finite piece of real estate with finite resources. Maybe one day we will expand into space in different directions, and there will be less requirement to continually exterminate each other just in order to have descendants. But space exploration is expected to remain rather expensive in the short to medium term future, and there seems to be little chance that it will ever change the basic parameters of life for 99.99% of the world's population.
One future change likely to happen soon is the technological singularity (which will probably arrive before major emigration to other worlds becomes feasible). Human competition and co-operation are becoming more and more entwined with self-accelerating technological development. This doesn't necessarily solve the war problem, and indeed when the singularity arises it might just decide to engage in a war of extermination against everyone and everything else. But if we are lucky, somehow most of "us" will be a part of the singularity, for example if it's a combined human-machine amplified-intelligence singularity, in which case things won't be so bad.
http://thinkinghard.com/politics/Why...HaveToLie.html

It is easy to believe what is common.. it is comfortable, and no one has to wake up at night asking the hard question, especially when they send innocent people to their death or justify their torture..

:wa:
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
11-14-2009, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I seriously hope those behind 9/11 get exposed in this life and receive harshest punishment in this life and the hereafter .. my prayers and thoughts go to the million and a half victims of Iraq who died a result of this abomination, to all the folks suffering in Afghanistan, Palestine, Chechnya, Bosnia, and every where there is Muslim suffering as a consequence of imperialist and war mongering turds looking to inherit and exploit others!
ameen.
what i truly dont get is, even if Muslims were behind this, then why the full scale invasion/torture, etc of people in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. i mean common sense dictates that when a criminal does harm somewhere, you track the individual/s down and bring them to justice (not American justice, that's for sure :$), not launch a full attack on the countries/towns/civilians they come from...like really :hmm:
Reply

جوري
11-14-2009, 03:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
:sl:

9/11 third tower mystery 'solved'

I found this link...I thought I should post it if anyone was interested in reading it. I'll read it later...
Your BBC actually references the links I have included.. Does the BBC qualify as conspiracy theorists apologists or will they now be deemed as such simply because what is written isn't in concert with the general consensus?

please allow me to quote and I thank you for the link:
'Smoking gun'
However, a group of architects, engineers and scientists say the official explanation that fires caused the collapse is impossible. Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth argue there must have been a controlled demolition.
anyone else for a good old fashioned



:w:
Reply

hector
11-14-2009, 04:09 AM
did you see the replays on tv
Reply

جوري
11-14-2009, 04:28 AM
you mean this from the BBC as well?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...es/7433017.stm
Reply

Supreme
11-14-2009, 05:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Justufy
I don’t think it is fair to assume someone has no education just because they disagree with you, from the light of gossamers posts she seems to be pretty educated, but this does not keep us from mistakes sometimes as believing in this 9/11 conspiracy clearly is. Perhaps this belief was influenced partly by emotions but in all cases if we look carefully this conspiracy becomes a huge pile of -------s, first of all because no reliable and media or politicians have endorsed it.

The site you provided does not answer these criteria.

I apologise, perhaps my conduct was inappropriate.

I apologise Gossamer if you took offense.

(For the record, it has been proven that people who follow conspiracy theories generally have lower IQs, although this probably isn't the case with Gossamer).
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Humbler_359
11-14-2009, 06:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
I apologise, perhaps my conduct was inappropriate.

I apologise Gossamer if you took offense.

(For the record, it has been proven that people who follow conspiracy theories generally have lower IQs, although this probably isn't the case with Gossamer).

Liberal, which people you refer to based on your judgement?
Reply

YusufNoor
11-14-2009, 06:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
I apologise, perhaps my conduct was inappropriate.

I apologise Gossamer if you took offense.

(For the record, it has been proven that people who follow conspiracy theories generally have lower IQs, although this probably isn't the case with Gossamer).
and what do you call the governments position? other than a theory about a conspiracy?

:hmm:
Reply

جوري
11-14-2009, 06:12 PM
a 'conspiracy theory' needs a set of criteria to be labeled as such:

1- be accepted by a mere few
2- can be easily refuted
3- is in fact 'theoretical'

none of these from the official 911 research are 'theoretical'
1.
Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration
2.
Improbable symmetry of debris distribution
3.
Extremely rapid onset of destruction
4.
Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes
5.
Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally 600 ft at 60 mph
6.
Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking
7.
Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
8.
1200-foot-dia. debris field: no "pancaked" floors found
9.
Isolated explosive ejections 20 – 40 stories below demolition front
10.
Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame
11.
Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises
12.
Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples
13.
Evidence of explosives found in dust samples
14.
No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire


http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/index.html



__________________


people with the true low IQ, are ready to imbue whatever, just because their govt. dishes it out .. you know if I really wanted to dabble in commonalities or generalities.. but it stands ad homs aren't a deterrent or a clause to keep people silenced!


all the best!
Reply

GuestFellow
11-14-2009, 06:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
(For the record, it has been proven that people who follow conspiracy theories generally have lower IQs,).
I would like to see evidence for that.
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جوري
11-14-2009, 06:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I would like to see evidence for that.

lol.. I too was awaiting that article from the esteemed journal that ran that double blind randomized trial... but figured since we are dealing with adhoms and derisory commentaries, not to hold my breath for long...


Enjoy the MSNBC & CNN conspiracy:


Media Tags are no longer supported
Reply

Ar-RaYYan
11-14-2009, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
:sl:

Torture never guarantees anything. It is immoral and inhumane. Suspects are innocent until proven guilty. No harm should be inflicted upon them. I see this ''war on terror'' as a form of revenge.
I agree but to be honest those suspected of terrorism do not have that legal right. It's usually the other way around- after years of torture and wasting their life in a prison they suddenly become 'innocent'.

Condaleeza Rice, Dick Cheeney and George Bush should be put on trial for war crimes.
Indeed.
Sorry to crush your dream but i dont think it will ever come to that. Unfortunately we dont have that kind of justice in this world.
Reply

GuestFellow
11-14-2009, 10:39 PM
:sl:

EDITED BY WOODROW: Removed reference to a deleted post

format_quote Originally Posted by Ar-RaYYan
I agree but to be honest those suspected of terrorism do not have that legal right. It's usually the other way around- after years of torture and wasting their life in a prison they suddenly become 'innocent'.
Well yes they don't have rights when the President can easily change laws to suit his needs.

Indeed.
Sorry to crush your dream but i dont think it will ever come to that. Unfortunately we dont have that kind of justice in this world.
Maybe not in this world but they'll surely face justice in the next world!!! =)
Reply

cat eyes
11-14-2009, 10:40 PM
:sl:

Just looking at those muslims who are going to be convicted come on man they do not look clever enough to carry out something as huge as this.

i am not saying this because i am a muslim but there is thousands if not millions of non muslims who feel the same way!
Reply

titus
11-15-2009, 05:19 AM
Just looking at those muslims who are going to be convicted come on man they do not look clever enough to carry out something as huge as this.
Something huge? All they had to do was hijack a plane, which was easy before 9/11, and then fly it into some buildings. They weren't building a hydrogen bomb.

Remember, before 9/11 no one expected a hijacked plane to be used as a weapon.

Also, what exactly does a clever or smart man look like? Einstein certainly didn't look like a genius, and Steven Hawkings certainly doesn't fit the mold of your average college professor, much less a super genius.
Reply

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