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mahi
11-18-2009, 03:57 PM
People in Palestine; oppressed daily, land taken away.
Afghanistan, Iraq, families killed. Just a few of the well known cases.

Prison camps all over the world like Abu Ghraib prison, Bagram, Guantanamo, Negev Desert prison camp, and all those many other prisoner camps holding muslims that I have not bothered listing or are yet not known to the public.
Many many thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of muslims held in these sort of prisons. Israel alone holds almost 10,000 Palestinians in prisons, the majority without charge, including woman and children. Muslims.

And these aren't minor things. These are major stuff that have been around for so long. And I've just listed a few. You have Israel commiting injustices left right and center, you have countries like France oppressing women, other groups around the world holding demos against muslims and inciting hatred. And yet the best time muslims speak out is when a cartoon is published? Where was the outcry of that muslim woman killed in court in front of her 3 year old child? Even that, something that got large amounts of publicity. Or Baha Mousa, the Hotel receptionist who died and sustained over 200 injuries or so just recently. Surely one of many..

Yet muslims all over the world carry on with their lives, school, job whatnot. Nobody cares for these people? I thought it went something like, When one part of the Ummah is attacked, the rest of the Ummah feels it?

Can I ask, what Ummah? Or are you muslims just blind to the sufferings or just feel like you can't do anything? Or do you think that muslims are indeed, strong? A line from native deen's song that goes like "M-U-S, L-I-M, I'm so blessed to be with them" sticks out in my mind. It goes, "we're one billion strong.."
One billion, more than that even, and yet these injustices are a regular occurrence. One billion weak is maybe more apt?
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Supreme
11-18-2009, 05:24 PM
Many many thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of muslims held in these sort of prisons. Israel alone holds almost 10,000 Palestinians in prisons, the majority without charge, including woman and children. Muslims.
Speak for yourself, I think it's an insult you haven't taken into account the injustices against the 10% Palestinian Christian population.

you have countries like France oppressing women
The French authorities are doing it because they think they're helping women. In some, albeit not all cases, thay may be right. They are, however, oppressing religion, which is equally revolting.

other groups around the world holding demos against muslims and inciting hatred
There are other groups inciting hatred against the Chinese, Americans, West, Christians, Jews etc. This isn't exclusive to Islam.

Where was the outcry of that muslim woman killed in court in front of her 3 year old child
I suggest you move to a Muslim country, then you would've heard the backlash and the woman's martyrdom.

Yet muslims all over the world carry on with their lives, school, job whatnot. Nobody cares for these people? I thought it went something like, When one part of the Ummah is attacked, the rest of the Ummah feels it?
What do you propose the Ummah do that it isn't already doing?

One billion weak is maybe more apt?
Actually, less degrading language would be more apt.
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mahi
11-18-2009, 05:56 PM
Pick apart what you wish, my question isn't "Why are muslims targetted", my question is..

Why are the muslims so divided, if they are, and why are they so weak when other muslims are oppressed and killed with ease.
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IbnAbdulHakim
11-18-2009, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by mahi
Pick apart what you wish, my question isn't "Why are muslims targetted", my question is..

Why are the muslims so divided, if they are, and why are they so weak when other muslims are oppressed and killed with ease.

Thauban reported that the messenger of Allah said: "It is near that the nations will call one another against you just as the eaters call one another to their dishes." Somebody asked: "Is this because we will be few in numbers that day?" He said: "Nay, but that day you shall be numerous, but you will be like the foam of the sea, and Allah will take the fear of you away from your enemies and will place weakness into your hearts." Somebody asked: "What is this weakness?" He said: "The love of the world and the dislike of death."
(Abu Daud)
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Eliphaz
11-19-2009, 05:44 PM
I think to understand why Muslims are so divided and apathetic, apart from the occasional rallying against the odd media controversy here and there, we need to understand why the Islamic Empire broke down.

Also, if we also see how European colonialism caused increased nationalism in contrast to falling religiousity, and therefore people became more concerned about their own immediate welfare rather than the Joe next door, with whom they now had less in common, compounded by the increasing sectarianism and divisions.

Without an effective leadership that appeals to almost every heart and mind, dealing with the immediate and diverse array of problems facing each part of the Ummah, there cannot be unity. The last time this happened was during the khilafah. Until Muslims can agree upon how to establish a khilafah in the modern 'global village' we now find ourselves in, there cannot be unity.
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ChOcCi
11-19-2009, 05:50 PM
Well, if your Christian, you'll know that Jesus Christ is coming again and there IS unity destined for us.. but until then we have to try and work harder to become better people and Inshallah we can go back to the right path that Allah (swt) wants us to follow. :)
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Abdul Qadir
11-19-2009, 06:27 PM
the sunnah is not being followed...Islam is not being practiced in accordance to how Muhammad SAW relayed it to ask. too many bid'ahs and shirk...ppl are not following their Salaf...u see women leading the prayer...men wearing garments below their ankles...u see groups such as Sufis...Shias...u think Allah would want to grant victory to these sorta muslims? Subahanallah...Based on the Quran, i dun think so...Allah will only Grant Muslims victory when they, "Wa'tasimu bihablillahi jami'au wa la tafarraku". meaning, when they hold firm to the sunnah of muhammad and not let go, and they stay united based on that...Then, only then the victory will come, and even that, insyallah...only when Allah wills....=)...
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Abdul Qadir
11-19-2009, 06:28 PM
wa'tasimu bihab lillahi jami'au walaatafarraku....
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Eliphaz
11-19-2009, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Qadir
...men wearing garments below their ankles...
Are you honestly saying that men wearing garments below their ankles has anything whatsoever to do with the disunity of the Ummah?

Or maybe it has more to do with the lack of universities, child literacy and economic development in Muslim countries? Ironic considering Muslims built some of the first higher education institutions back in the day.
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Abdul Qadir
11-20-2009, 06:46 AM
Originally Posted by Eliphaz
Are you honestly saying that men wearing garments below their ankles has anything whatsoever to do with the disunity of the Ummah?

Or maybe it has more to do with the lack of universities, child literacy and economic development in Muslim countries? Ironic considering Muslims built some of the first higher education institutions back in the day.
wearing the garment below the ankle(isbaal) is a sin...and its against the sunnah of the Prophet SAW...he says such ppl will have to go thru the torment of hell...its just a example...if ur going against Allah's words, or dun have enuff islamic knowledge of even how the men's islamic dress code should be, how do u expect Allah to grant these sorta muslims victory?
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titus
11-20-2009, 02:43 PM
Or maybe it has more to do with the lack of universities, child literacy and economic development in Muslim countries? Ironic considering Muslims built some of the first higher education institutions back in the day.
No, it's definitely the garments below the ankle thing.
ppl are not following their Salaf...u see women leading the prayer...men wearing garments below their ankles...u see groups such as Sufis...Shias...
Or it could be that there are so many Muslims that are adamant that their way is the only way that there will never be any kind of unity.
I think to understand why Muslims are so divided and apathetic, apart from the occasional rallying against the odd media controversy here and there, we need to understand why the Islamic Empire broke down.
Partially. But you also need to understand the mindset of the Empire and how that mindset helped lead to the downfall. Learn about how those in the Empire, especially the leadership, thought about the rest of the world and how they reacted to it.
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Abdul Qadir
11-20-2009, 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by titus
No, it's definitely the garments below the ankle thing.


Or it could be that there are so many Muslims that are adamant that their way is the only way that there will never be any kind of unity.


Partially. But you also need to understand the mindset of the Empire and how that mindset helped lead to the downfall. Learn about how those in the Empire, especially the leadership, thought about the rest of the world and how they reacted to it.
i've got no comments...
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titus
11-20-2009, 03:39 PM
Just in case you may have misunderstood my post:

No, it's definitely the garments below the ankle thing.
That was sarcasm.

Or it could be that there are so many Muslims that are adamant that their way is the only way that there will never be any kind of unity.
By this I mean that many Muslims are looking for unity, but they also feel that the unity should only come if all Muslims feel and believe exactly the same way that they do. With that mindset it will never happen.
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Eliphaz
11-20-2009, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Qadir
wearing the garment below the ankle(isbaal) is a sin...and its against the sunnah of the Prophet SAW...he says such ppl will have to go thru the torment of hell...its just a example...if ur going against Allah's words, or dun have enuff islamic knowledge of even how the men's islamic dress code should be, how do u expect Allah to grant these sorta muslims victory?
When the Islamic Empire was in its golden age, there was fitnah left right and centre. The only difference was that they thought with their heads and didn't rely on scholars to tell them everything. It's discussions like this which are stopping the Ummah from advancing, by nitpicking on issues like trouser length whilst there are much more significant issues to be concerned with.

Originally Posted by titus
Or it could be that there are so many Muslims that are adamant that their way is the only way that there will never be any kind of unity.
There will never be unity of the kind that everybody agrees on everything, but agreeing on the main points would be a start. The Ummah should, in its optimum state, be like a the human body - not each part needs to have the same function but there at least needs to be like a kind of harmony between the different parts.
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ChOcCi
12-02-2009, 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by Eliphaz
Are you honestly saying that men wearing garments below their ankles has anything whatsoever to do with the disunity of the Ummah?

Originally Posted by titus
No, it's definitely the garments below the ankle thing.


Or it could be that there are so many Muslims that are adamant that their way is the only way that there will never be any kind of unity.


Partially. But you also need to understand the mindset of the Empire and how that mindset helped lead to the downfall. Learn about how those in the Empire, especially the leadership, thought about the rest of the world and how they reacted to it.


HAHAHAHA you two really made my day!! kudos! ;D


Originally Posted by Abdul Qadir
wearing the garment below the ankle(isbaal) is a sin...and its against the sunnah of the Prophet SAW...he says such ppl will have to go thru the torment of hell...its just a example...if ur going against Allah's words, or dun have enuff islamic knowledge of even how the men's islamic dress code should be, how do u expect Allah to grant these sorta muslims victory?
As for you sir.. a man who ALWAYS did his prayers, sacrificed EVERYTHING for others and did the BEST he could ever do for his religion (in other words, the perfect definition of a GREAT human being and a muslim) wore his trousers below his ankles, he'd be burned in hell fire?? ;D;D;D;D;D:D


Boy, do I love you guys and your extremist views of life :)
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ShayB
12-02-2009, 02:59 AM
:sl:
I think Abdul Qadir is right on!, but your missing the point with the trousers. Long trousers where a show of wealth in that time. Be like someone showing up to Masjid in a designer suit, and then leave in his BMW. My levi's are long, but they're in no way a show of wealth.
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_PakistaN_
12-02-2009, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim

Thauban reported that the messenger of Allah said: "It is near that the nations will call one another against you just as the eaters call one another to their dishes." Somebody asked: "Is this because we will be few in numbers that day?" He said: "Nay, but that day you shall be numerous, but you will be like the foam of the sea, and Allah will take the fear of you away from your enemies and will place weakness into your hearts." Somebody asked: "What is this weakness?" He said: "The love of the world and the dislike of death."
(Abu Daud)
I was about to post that.
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Abdul Qadir
12-03-2009, 06:11 AM
Originally Posted by titus
Just in case you may have misunderstood my post:



That was sarcasm.



By this I mean that many Muslims are looking for unity, but they also feel that the unity should only come if all Muslims feel and believe exactly the same way that they do. With that mindset it will never happen.
obviously i knew that was sarcasm...thats y i have nothing to say to someone like u...
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Abdul Qadir
12-03-2009, 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by ShayB
:sl:
I think Abdul Qadir is right on!, but your missing the point with the trousers. Long trousers where a show of wealth in that time. Be like someone showing up to Masjid in a designer suit, and then leave in his BMW. My levi's are long, but they're in no way a show of wealth.
Anything that is below the ankles is in the hellfire...bukhari...there is a hadith in sunan Abu daud which says a man's prayer was not accepted because he was praying and his garments were below his ankles...now, was that man arrogant? by letting down ur trousers below ur ankle and saying thats not out of arrogance, you are actually being arrogant...isbaal is not a small matter...Umar Khattab was in his death bed barely able to talk...and he signalled to a boy to pull his garment up...there is a hadith but im not sure where to find this...
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titus
12-03-2009, 06:18 AM
obviously i knew that was sarcasm...thats y i have nothing to say to someone like u...
Yet you have replied twice.

Can you respond to my statement, though? I really want to know your opinion about this:

By this I mean that many Muslims are looking for unity, but they also feel that the unity should only come if all Muslims feel and believe exactly the same way that they do. With that mindset it will never happen.

Do you only desire unity if everyone believes and acts as you do? Can you overlook things such as trouser length for "unity"?
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Abdul Qadir
12-03-2009, 06:20 AM
Originally Posted by titus
Yet you have replied twice.

Can you respond to my statement, though? I really want to know your opinion about this:

By this I mean that many Muslims are looking for unity, but they also feel that the unity should only come if all Muslims feel and believe exactly the same way that they do. With that mindset it will never happen.

Do you only desire unity if everyone believes and acts as you do? Can you overlook things such as trouser length for "unity"?
islam will unite as one insyallah....what i was talking about was the lack of knowledge amongst muslims nowdays...i would link knowledge with unity...i used isbaal as an example to highlight knowledge...and i hope u have the sense to recognise that...
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Abdul Qadir
12-03-2009, 06:46 AM
Originally Posted by ChOcCi
HAHAHAHA you two really made my day!! kudos! ;D




As for you sir.. a man who ALWAYS did his prayers, sacrificed EVERYTHING for others and did the BEST he could ever do for his religion (in other words, the perfect definition of a GREAT human being and a muslim) wore his trousers below his ankles, he'd be burned in hell fire?? ;D;D;D;D;D:D


Boy, do I love you guys and your extremist views of life :)
that is for those who had not heard about the hadith...if he comes to know about the hadith....he has no choice but to follow it...if truth has been relayed with firm evidence and still he arrogantly continues to deny it, thats different...
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titus
12-03-2009, 06:50 AM
Well then, what do you believe is the biggest obstacle to Muslim unity, and do you have any plausible idea on how to go about achieving that? I know you believe that knowledge is important, but that is very broad. Even Muslim scholars are not united and certainly knowledge is not the issue there. Is is sectarianism? Nationalism? What, exactly?
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