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View Full Version : French immigration fears cloud identity debate



Uthman
12-08-2009, 11:41 AM
President Nicolas Sarkozy insists it is a noble exercise in soul-searching about what defines Frenchness, but the national identity debate gripping France has quickly exposed fears about immigration.

Sarkozy's right-wing government launched the debate last month, inviting ordinary citizens to explain what it means to be French on an Internet forum and at town hall meetings organised across the country.

On Tuesday, the debate goes to the National Assembly where deputies will provide their input before the introspection draws to a close on February 4 with a national conference allowing the government to take stock.

The initiative ignited controversy from the outset, with the left accusing Sarkozy of trying to woo far-right voters ahead of March regional elections by appealing to French pride and patriotism.

Struggling with low approval ratings, Sarkozy has defended the discussion about national identity, saying "this is a noble debate" and that those who opposed it are simply afraid of tackling complex issues.

A member of Sarkozy's party showed no fear when he told a local gathering last week that France had too many immigrants and that this problem had been swept under the carpet for too long.

"It's time we reacted because we are going to be eaten alive," said Andre Valentin, mayor of a small village in northern France. "There are already 10 million of them, 10 million who are getting paid to do nothing."

Immigration Minister Eric Besson, who is also the minister for national identity, stepped in and declared such remarks "unacceptable" within the government-sponsored debate.

He also announced that his ministry would from now on carefully monitor the posted comments on its identity debate website to remove contributions deemed racist or xenophobic.

These include such comments as "being France means being white. That's all" and "being French means learning to park your car in a garage to avoid having it torched" -- a reference to car burnings in the high-immigration suburbs.

France is home to Europe's largest Muslim minority and Islam now ranks as the nation's second religion, so opinion was rattled by the Swiss referendum vote to ban minaret construction.

Despite several local campaigns by the French far right, dozens of mosques are slated for construction in France, including a Grand Mosque in Marseille that will have a 25-metre (82-foot) minaret.

Next month, a parliamentary inquiry will produce a much-awaited report on whether to ban the full Islamic veil, and the "burqa debate" is providing yet another test of how far France is willing to go to accommodate Islam.

"This debate is being organised in a very unhealthy context," said Eugene-Henri More, the deputy mayor of the ethnically-mixed Paris suburb of La Courneuve.

"The idea is to come up with a model for being French, but who will define this model?" he asked. "It really seems to me that it's being organised to appease fears about immigration."

Among the questions raised by the debate's organisers are: Should France have "integration contracts" for immigrants imposing rules such as French language skills, and should students be required to sing the national anthem "La Marseillaise" at least once a year?

Booing "La Marseillaise" at soccer matches has become the signature form of protest by French immigrant youths.

The opposition Socialist Party is boycotting the debate, with leader Martine Aubry accusing Sarkozy of whipping up anti-immigrant sentiment and allowing the debate to become a platform for xenophobia.

As of last week, more than 40,000 comments had been posted on the debate website.

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Uthman
12-09-2009, 05:44 PM
Nicolas Sarkozy: Muslims must be discreet about faith
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Amadeus85
12-09-2009, 09:12 PM
French identity is various in modern days. There are many groups of people who... tolerate themselves.
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Supreme
12-10-2009, 05:17 PM
What it means to be French:- surrender at times of war.

Sorry, that was terrible...
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GuestFellow
12-10-2009, 07:14 PM
Nationalism serves no purpose.
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جوري
12-10-2009, 07:24 PM
He did alot of soul searching, found out cheating on his wife and having a mistress or two is better as well a few divorces for his indiscretions .. and that is what it means to lead by example--and not be discreet about it!...

'tis not a harem thing when the french do it...
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Uthman
01-05-2010, 06:19 PM
French minister defends national identity debate

The French government has claimed its attempts to define "national identity" have overwhelming public support despite accusations it has exploited xenophobic fears.

President Nicolas Sarkozy launched a "great debate" in November, calling it a "noble" meditation on what it means to be French.

But now he is facing increasingly vocal calls – including from within his own camp – to scrap what critics say has become a dangerous slanging match over immigration and a perilous attempt to woo back the hard Right vote three months ahead of regional elections.

On Monday, the man Mr Sarkozy tasked with leading the debate trumpeted it as an "immense popular success".

Eric Besson, the minister of immigration and national identity insisted that the debate had not "veered off course" into caricature nor was it solely "focused on immigration and Islam".

He announced the results of a TNS Sofres poll he ordered suggesting that 80 per cent of French felt national identity was "weakening".

"The vast majority of contributions are perfectly respectful of our republican values," he said in a press conference.

Mr Besson was responding to claims that a website set up to encourage discussion has turned into an immigrant-bashing forum. About a fifth of the 50,000 entries had to be erased. "They're not publishable," Mr Sarkozy was reported to have complained.

The president called for calm in a televised New Year's address. He said: "Let us be able to debate without tearing ourselves apart, with insulting each other, without losing unity."

Disquiet has grown at what many regard as a threatening presence of Islam in France – home to around six million Muslims. This was compounded by Switzerland's recent vote to ban the building of minarets on mosques.

Right-wing MPs are now promoting a ban on the burka, while another law put before parliament last month would outlaw the waving of foreign flags at weddings in town halls.

Mr Besson insisted that only a third of comments on his website referred to immigration and Islam. However, tensions were palpable at a recent meeting in Nanterre, a suburb west of Paris, one of around 300 "national identity debates" held around the country.

Mohamed el Madani, a well-spoken French Muslim stood up to address the crowd of 100 from the suburb – a mix of big business and multi-ethnic high-rise estates.

"I grew up in the Auvergne (central France). When I see President Sarkozy telling the French to show respect for immigrants who have arrived, and for newcomers to do likewise, I say: 'I have not arrived: I'm here'," said the IT manager.

"Abroad everyone takes me for a Parisian. Here I'm a North African, a bizarre bearded man. People cross the street when they see me coming."

An angry voice chimed in from the back of the hall. David Rachline, a National Front member, grabbed the microphone. "You say that but why is it that pork is no longer served in our school canteens, why is that Muslim women refuse to be treated by male doctors in our hospitals and push for single-sex swimming pool hours?" he exclaimed.

The opposition Socialists claim Mr Sarkozy is trying to pander to the National Front electorate ahead of regional elections in March. They want the whole exercise scrapped.

Three former right-wing prime ministers have voiced serious doubts. Alain Juppé called it "pointless" while Jean-Pierre Raffarin said it risked becoming a "café counter chat" devoid of "intellectual rigour". Some 45,000 people have signed an online petition calling for it to stop.

Yet the president has made it clear he has no intention of pulling the plug on the exercise. "Am I making up the 'ghettoisation' of certain city districts, the rise of a form of racism in others, violence in yet others, the absence of diversity in French elites?" he recently asked.

In a tribune in the Le Figaro newspaper, some 25 right-wing MPs said the debate is healthy and must go on. "To leave (it) solely to nationalists and xenophobes would be playing into their hands once again," they wrote.

Mr Besson said: "Debate doesn't boost extremism, taboos do." He will hand in this month a "synthesis" of the debate to the president, who will decide whether new legislation is required to better protect French identity.

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Raaina
01-05-2010, 07:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
What it means to be French:- surrender at times of war.

Sorry, that was terrible...
;D I like it.
Reply

Muezzin
01-05-2010, 09:39 PM
Mr Besson said: "Debate doesn't boost extremism, taboos do."
Very true. I hope those in who are in favour of banning, censoring, or otherwise rendering taboo further expressions of Islam or other religions in France bear this in mind.
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Pygoscelis
01-06-2010, 03:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Nationalism serves no purpose.
Agreed. Its just another form of tribalism.
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Pygoscelis
01-06-2010, 03:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Very true. I hope those in who are in favour of banning, censoring, or otherwise rendering taboo further expressions of Islam or other religions in France bear this in mind.
That goes for everything. Taboos create backlash. Its why we have more gay pride parades and a more booming porn industry in america as compared to europe.
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Joe98
01-06-2010, 06:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Nationalism serves no purpose.
You are mistaken. Without nationalism we would all be Americans with mom and apple pie!

-
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Amadeus85
01-06-2010, 02:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That goes for everything. Taboos create backlash. Its why we have more gay pride parades and a more booming porn industry in america as compared to europe.
:exhausted :exhausted
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Amadeus85
01-06-2010, 02:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That goes for everything. Taboos create backlash. Its why we have more gay pride parades and a more booming porn industry in america as compared to europe.

The fans of little young girls or boys and fans of incest can't wait when USA reach the final level of progress, tolerance, and equality. I'm sure that no fascist will stop the march of equality and tolerance.

He will be happy

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Pygoscelis
01-07-2010, 06:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85
:exhausted :exhausted
lol gays and porn upset you so much you were momentarily at a loss for words? The point remains. Taboo creates backlash. Make Islam taboo, more people are going to check it out. This also works for other things. Some taboos justify the backlash (such as the example you give), for others the backlash is more of a problem than the original.

Taboos fascinate me. Especially taboo language. Some words are offensive for good reason, such as ethnic slurs. But others are taboo simply because we make them taboo, such as the famous "f" word.
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