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S_87
12-08-2009, 04:37 PM
Christian hotel manager in court accused of asking hijab-wearing guest: 'Are you a terrorist and a murderer?'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0Z7FQOpRQ


A Muslim convert was reduced to tears after being asked by a Christian hotelier if she was a terrorist and a murderer because she was wearing traditional Islamic dress, a court heard today.
Ericka Tazi, 60, said wearing the hijab 'triggered something' in hotel proprietor Benjamin Vogelenzang and his wife Sharon.
She told Liverpool Magistrates' Court she was subjected to a 60-minute tirade of abuse by the couple because on March 20, the final day of her stay with them, she decided to wear a hijab head covering and gown.
Mrs Tazi, who converted to Islam 18 months ago, spent a month at The Bounty House Hotel on Church Avenue, Aintree, Liverpool, while attending a four-week pain management course at The Walton Centre at Aintree Hospital.
The couple deny a charge, made under the 1986 Public Order Act, of using threatening, abusive or insulting words which were religiously aggravated.
Prosecutor Anya Horwood told the court that Benjamin Vogelenzang, 53, called the prophet Mohammed a 'warlord' and likened him to Saddam Hussein and Hitler.
He and his 54-year-old wife told Mrs Tazi, who has two grown-up sons, that her Islamic dress represented 'oppression' and was a form of 'bondage', the court heard.
Ms Horwood said that a row flared when Mrs Tazi, who had worn European dress during her four-week stay, came down on the morning she was due to leave dressed in traditional Islamic dress.
She said Benjamin Vogelenzang asked her: 'Why are you wearing those clothes' and began laughing at her. She explained to him it was important to her.
'He started to discuss his faith, he is a Christian, and the role Jesus played in both their religions.

'He became angry and was shouting at her and at that point Sharon Vogelenzang joined in. She was saying that the clothes she was wearing represented oppression and bondage.'


Ms Horwood said Mrs Tazi walked into the dining room but was followed by Benjamin Vogelenzang who was like 'a whirling dervish'.

She said: 'He was agitated and upset and began repeatedly asking her was she a terrorist, was she a murderer like Mohammed?
'Ericka Tazi kept asking him to stop and he became more agitated, saying Mohammed was a warlord and likened Mohammed to Saddam Hussein and Hitler.

'She asked the couple to stop insulting her. She tried to explain again how important her faith was.

'At that point Sharon Vogelenzang pointed her finger in her face, shouting, saying she had provoked this because of wearing the gown.'
Mrs Tazi came to court dressed in a hijab and gown and using a walking stick. She swore an oath on the Koran and kissed the holy book before giving evidence to the prosecutor.
She told the court that dressing in the hijab seemed to 'trigger something' in Benjamin Vogelenzang and that she had found the episode extremely traumatic.
Mrs Tazi, who suffers from fibromyalgia and lives with chronic pain, said: 'He just couldn't accept the way I was dressed


'He was laughing at me and it seemed to trigger something, I don't know why, I kept saying 'I'm Ericka', it was my outfit that had triggered him.

'He asked me if I was a murderer, if I was a terrorist. I'm a 60-year-old disabled woman, I couldn't understand where it was coming from, it was shocking to me.'
Mrs Tazi said the couple told her that her dress was bondage. She told the court: 'I was on this journey of being a convert, it was my decision, I couldn't be in bondage if it was my decision.'
She said: 'He followed me into the dining room and he was jumping up and down. I've never seen anything like it, his arms were flailing.

'Sharon came running in, she was shouting "you started this with your dress" and she was pointing in my face and I was frightened at this stage. I was absolutely traumatised by it all.

'I kept putting my hand up saying "please stop it". I just wanted to get out. If I had had the legs to run I would have run out of that hotel.'
She said she told the couple she had been a Christian and that 'I've always had God in my life' and had once been a member of the Catholic Legion of Mary.
Mrs Tazi contacted the police that night. When questioned by detectives, the couple said they had been sharing their 'faith views'.
The court heard that Sharon Vogelenzang told officers she did not mean to be disrespectful when she referred to the hijab as bondage.
She said she was entitled to respond when her faith was challenged and that she was merely expressing her opinions.

Benjamin Vogelenzang said he had referred to historical figures, but not Mohammed, and had not meant to be offensive or insulting.

Mrs Tazi told Hugh Tomlinson QC, for the defence, that she was not trying to make a statement by wearing the hijab and denied having robust arguments about religion with other guests during her stay.

She told him her father and grandfather had fought in both world wars and said: 'I love my country, I thought I had the freedom to wear what I wanted to wear.'
Mrs Tazi said she had thought the Vogelenzangs were a 'genteel couple' until the incident.
She said she tried 'many religions' before converting to Islam when she married.

Mrs Tazi said: 'My journey has been a long, long journey, it was a very difficult decision to wear these clothes... I'm a normal Warrington girl who liked the Beatles.

'I had a different life before and I'm proud. My hijab is part of my faith, it's in the Koran.'
Supporters of the Vogelenzangs from The Christian Institute demonstrated outside the court this morning by singing songs.
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Uthman
12-08-2009, 05:10 PM
BBC Article: Christian hotelier 'abused' Muslim guest

We must condemn this, but at the same time we must remember of course, that the person in the article does not represent all Christians.
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Muezzin
12-08-2009, 05:25 PM
Not the most professional way to treat your guests and customers, Mr and Mrs Vogelenzang.
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Woodrow
12-08-2009, 05:26 PM
Stories like this makes me wonder if life has become a "B" Grade Science Fiction movie titled "Invasion of The Idiots From Beyond Reason"
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cat eyes
12-08-2009, 05:33 PM
:sl:people are not going to like probably what i have to say but i am in two minds whether it was the right thing to do to take them to court or not. i just keep thinking how much the prophet mohammad saw was constantly tormented by the non muslims even one woman throwing rubbish at him everytime the prophet saw walked by her house and the prophet saw never complained she ended up embracing islam due to his kindness because he visited her when she was sick but it must have been awful experience for her :cry: however i don't think i would have brought the couple to court i would have shown them mercy and forgiven them for what they have done to me i believe this will only make people rebel more against islam and its teachings thats just my opinion others may differ :cry:
Reply

Uthman
12-08-2009, 05:42 PM
Article from the Times

I just realised - she's from Warrington! That's where I live as well. It's a shame that something like this had to happen, when there was really no need for it at all.
Reply

Argamemnon
12-08-2009, 06:24 PM
That's the mindset of a large number of westerners.
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جوري
12-08-2009, 07:44 PM
Hope she sues them for all their worth and insha'Allah bankrupts them..
what a couple of deranged loons!
Reply

جوري
12-08-2009, 07:45 PM
bondage and oppression isn't forcing your roommate into orgy sex before killing her, apparently it is when you keep your clothes on......... ohhhhhhhhh.. now I get it!
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The_Prince
12-08-2009, 10:30 PM
she should have responded back by saying no, im not a terrorist, but do you two like molesting little alter boys while telling them about the good news of Jesus Christ?
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dragonofzenshu
12-08-2009, 10:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
she should have responded back by saying no, im not a terrorist, but do you two like molesting little alter boys while telling them about the good news of Jesus Christ?
This is where two worlds collide, right here.

Prince, brother, what you are saying is not representative of christians either! Sure, that happens among priests and baptizers, but is it any different from the radical imam who preaches hate and violence against all non muslims, or the radical rabbi who will call for the extermination of all palestinians, arabs and muslims?

There are bad, bruised apples in the bucket, my brother Prince. Of ALL groups and of ALL people.

These people acted like savages. I feel sorry for this woman. I don't know her, but she sounds like a peaceful Muslim woman and all we can do is feel her pain and try to see things from her side.

I hope and pray very much that people from all groups and types in the world can live in peace together always.

Oh and archdemon, we should go on an anti-western propaganda campaign, and try to present things from the other sides of view :D We seriously should im very confident others would want to follow
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Italianguy
12-09-2009, 02:25 AM
Please don't take that as all Christians view of Islam. He is and idiot and not a true Christian...okay that was harsh. wish i was there that is not how a Christian should act....Plus i think a Hijabb is beautiful, and don't take that the wrong way ladies. My Nonna always wore something similar.

i was told by a Muslim. "Muslims are NOT terrorists, some terrorists just claim to be Muslim" he also told me that terrorism is everything Islam is NOT.
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Italianguy
12-09-2009, 02:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
she should have responded back by saying no, im not a terrorist, but do you two like molesting little alter boys while telling them about the good news of Jesus Christ?
Was that necessary?
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Italianguy
12-09-2009, 02:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
:sl:people are not going to like probably what i have to say but i am in two minds whether it was the right thing to do to take them to court or not. i just keep thinking how much the prophet mohammad saw was constantly tormented by the non muslims even one woman throwing rubbish at him everytime the prophet saw walked by her house and the prophet saw never complained she ended up embracing islam due to his kindness because he visited her when she was sick but it must have been awful experience for her :cry: however i don't think i would have brought the couple to court i would have shown them mercy and forgiven them for what they have done to me i believe this will only make people rebel more against islam and its teachings thats just my opinion others may differ :cry:
I feel the same way, as a Christian, we are not supposed to sue at all. I would forgive them and pray that God changes their hearts.
Reply

nocturnal
12-09-2009, 02:41 AM
I agree with the sentiments expressed so far in this thread that the views of the hoteliers should not be seen as representative of Christians in general. But one wonders what the outcome would have been had it been a Muslim hotelier having a go at a liberal person who just happens to be wearing a miniskirt. It would most likely have triggered another round of press tirades against Muslims and their recalcitrant attitude towards intergrating and assimiliating "Western values".

Just an observation.
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Humbler_359
12-09-2009, 03:00 AM
:sl:

I am not sure why these couples harrassed this old lady. Does this christian couples understand Catholics tradition regarding Mary, Nuns, and hijabs things? Have they seen it before?

Jesus's Mother wore clothes similar to Hijab. Don't forget that.
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Ramadhan
12-09-2009, 03:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nocturnal
I agree with the sentiments expressed so far in this thread that the views of the hoteliers should not be seen as representative of Christians in general. But one wonders what the outcome would have been had it been a Muslim hotelier having a go at a liberal person who just happens to be wearing a miniskirt. It would most likely have triggered another round of press tirades against Muslims and their recalcitrant attitude towards intergrating and assimiliating "Western values".

Just an observation.
This another tired "what if a muslim does that... blah..blah..blah..."

Focus on the case, will you?
Who is the victim here?
No one in this thread said the couple represents every christians in the world.
Reply

Ramadhan
12-09-2009, 03:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Humbler_359
:sl:

I am not sure why these couples harrassed this old lady. Does this christian couples understand Catholics tradition regarding Mary, Nuns, and hijabs things? Have they seen it before?

Jesus's Mother wore clothes similar to Hijab. Don't forget that.

Because christians today follow mostly the teachings and examples by Paul, other saints, and their priests, and not the examples and teachings by Jesus pbuh and Maryam?

What Would Jesus Do?
remains empty slogan.
Reply

Ramadhan
12-09-2009, 03:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Hope she sues them for all their worth and insha'Allah bankrupts them..
what a couple of deranged loons!
I hope she does, just for this:

The court was told Mr Vogelenzang behaved like 'a whirling dervish', saying the Prophet Mohammed was 'a warlord' and comparing him to Hitler and Saddam Hussein.
Reply

جوري
12-09-2009, 03:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I hope she does, just for this:

The court was told Mr Vogelenzang behaved like 'a whirling dervish', saying the Prophet Mohammed was 'a warlord' and comparing him to Hitler and Saddam Hussein.
good for her al7mdlillah..May Allah swt aid her through this....
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Italianguy
12-09-2009, 06:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Because christians today follow mostly the teachings and examples by Paul, other saints, and their priests, and not the examples and teachings by Jesus pbuh and Maryam?

What Would Jesus Do?
remains empty slogan.
Well, i agree most follow the teachings of other authors, but their writings are supposed to be the words of Jesus teachings. Catholics only believe in saints protestants don't, i recognise many saints to be great poeple whom may have done good in the past, but i have seen many more who have done more, Christian and muslim.
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Futymed
12-09-2009, 10:23 AM
She (Ericka Tazi ) says:

format_quote Originally Posted by amani
'I had a different life before and I'm proud. My hijab is part of my faith, it's in the Koran.'
I might be mistaken, but I can’t seem to find the hijab in the Koran, it does speak of a ‘Veil ‘ , but that seems to be a curtain used in the home for privacy. Is this a bit of propaganda or has she been brainwashed ?

IMO, Sometimes the hijab can look nice, and I am sure it is warm in winter. I would like it removed from its religious connotations so any woman ( or man ) can wear it , as they choose.
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Khaldun
12-09-2009, 10:39 AM
:sl:

أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّا أَرْسَلْنَا الشَّيَاطِينَ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ تَؤُزُّهُمْ أَزًّا

Allah is Just, these people will get what they deserve.
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The_Prince
12-09-2009, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Italianguy
Was that necessary?
offcourse it is, when your dealing with trash you must sometimes speak to them in their own language.
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czgibson
12-09-2009, 11:27 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
offcourse it is, when your dealing with trash you must sometimes speak to them in their own language.
Or how about rising above it and showing that you are the better person?

Peace
Reply

S_87
12-09-2009, 02:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Futymed
She (Ericka Tazi ) says:



I might be mistaken, but I can’t seem to find the hijab in the Koran, it does speak of a ‘Veil ‘ , but that seems to be a curtain used in the home for privacy. Is this a bit of propaganda or has she been brainwashed ?

IMO, Sometimes the hijab can look nice, and I am sure it is warm in winter. I would like it removed from its religious connotations so any woman ( or man ) can wear it , as they choose.
you are talking about the word 'hijab' specifically from the verses revealed to the Prophet Muhammed peace and blessings be upon hims wives i take it>

hijab isnt specific to muslims, any woman of other faiths can totally wear it.

she hasnt been brainwashed there are many many verses regarding covering:

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful
33:59

then theres:

And as for women past childbearing who do not expect wedlock, it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment. But to refrain (i.e. not to discard their outer clothing) is better for them. And Allaah is All‑Hearer, All‑Knower
24:60

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful
24:31


of course the issue of hijab has been discussed at length on many topics together with hadiths and interpretation, if you would like to discuss further.
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Uthman
12-09-2009, 03:51 PM
Christian hoteliers cleared in Muslim woman abuse row

Hoteliers cleared of abusing Muslim guest
Reply

nocturnal
12-09-2009, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
This another tired "what if a muslim does that... blah..blah..blah..."

Focus on the case, will you?
Who is the victim here?
No one in this thread said the couple represents every christians in the world.
It's not another tired cliche like you're saying, its a an undeniable fact. Had it been the other way round it would promptly bring Muslims back under the spotlight. If you lived here in the UK and had a sense of the latent Islamophobia that is pervasive, you'd know what im talking about.
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Uthman
12-10-2009, 10:10 AM
Well, the case has been dismissed anyway.
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Khaldun
12-10-2009, 10:22 AM
:sl:

I call upon fellow muslims to rise above this and follow the gudiance of our Prophet. Remember how in Taif he had the chance to destroy the people living there but he did not. Remember how the Jewish lady used to put out thorns on his path everyday and the one day she did not the Prophet asked about her, if she was well etc.

I know it is difficult but when we turn the other cheek to ignorant people that is when people will realise that Muslim truly practise what they preach.

وَعِبَادُ الرَّحْمَنِ الَّذِينَ يَمْشُونَ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ هَوْنًا وَإِذَا خَاطَبَهُمُ الْجَاهِلُونَ قَالُوا سَلَامًا

For, [true] servants of the ar-Rahmaan [Most Gracious] are [only] they who walk gently on earth [without pride], and who, whenever the foolish address them, [with insults] reply with [words of] peace
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MSalman
12-10-2009, 04:09 PM
as-salamu alaykum

what can we expect from bunch of bankrupt kuffaars!? May Allah reward our sister abundantly and keep her steadfast, ameen.

@Khaldun

akhee al-kareem, it is true that forgiving is a beloved to Allah; however, He has also made permissible for us to seek justice and get something in return for our rights, which were violated.
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Supreme
12-10-2009, 05:16 PM
It may be the Christian in me, but I for one am pleased such a case was rejected out of hand by the courts. As far as I understand, insults were exchanged both ways, with the Muslim woman calling Jesus a 'minor' prophet in Islam. Even though this was clearly unacceptable and unprofessional, I can't imagine how an insult would hurt somebody so badly. I also think the two Christians in question have been punished enough with the poor business their hotel has recieved since.
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MSalman
12-10-2009, 05:30 PM
^visit my house and let me call you a terrorist and rapist because you are wearing a cross. After I do that, let me tell you how you feel - it wouldn't be so bad right? Your hypocrisy is written all over your post: you find her calling Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) a minor prophet offensive and a big deal; however, the other way around isn't that bad.

So this is teachings which Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) brought? Talk about so called "love for everyone and being just"!
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جوري
12-10-2009, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
^visit my house and let me call you a terrorist and rapist because you are wearing a cross. After I do that, let me tell you how you feel - it wouldn't be so bad right? Your hypocrisy is written all over your post: you find her calling Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) a minor prophet offensive and a big deal; however, the other way around isn't that bad.

So this is teachings which Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) brought? Talk about so called "love for everyone and being just"!
what? you didn't find the Christian actions all 'Jesus like'?
I think they represent their religion well. Haters, uneducated and war-mongers.. they are the best ones to represent Jesus, and their actions say alot more than a 'minor prophet'

:wa:
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Supreme
12-10-2009, 05:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
^visit my house and let me call you a terrorist and rapist because you are wearing a cross. After I do that, let me tell you how you feel - it wouldn't be so bad right? Your hypocrisy is written all over your post: you find her calling Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) a minor prophet offensive and a big deal; however, the other way around isn't that bad.

So this is teachings which Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) brought? Talk about so called "love for everyone and being just"!
Wait, I never said it offended me. I merely stated that insults were exchanged both ways. Most things said against Christianity do not offend me, as strong faith and trust in the teachings of Jesus should not be rocked by a human being. Jesus Himself said:

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
(Matthew 5:11-12)

He also states:

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
(Matthew 24:9-14)

Therefore, any Christian should not be offended by any insult, but should merely expect it and grow used to it. However, this woman clearly felt insulted, and rightly so, but she also thought so much of the situation she took it to court. I can't help but feel that those of us who pay taxes deserve for them to be spent on more worthwhile things than the feelings of one individual. There's a difference between being insulted and over-exaggerating.

what? you didn't find the Christian actions all 'Jesus like'?
I think they represent their religion well. Haters, uneducated and war-mongers.. they are the best ones to represent Jesus, and their actions say alot more than a 'minor prophet'
Spare us liberal Christians a thought will you? Jeez!
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جوري
12-10-2009, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme


Spare us liberal Christians a thought will you? Jeez!
Don't like it here don't be a member here!.. I don't really see any points in pasting passages from your bible when the actions of many self-professed christians is so contrary to what is written.. surely even you have heard of hypocrisy?
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Supreme
12-10-2009, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Don't like it here don't be a member here!.. I don't really see any points in pasting passages from your bible when the actions of many self-professed christians is so contrary to what is written.. surely even you have heard of hypocrisy?
Not really. Hyposcrisy only really applies to the individual, and I as an individual do not go against some integral teachings of Jesus unlike other Christians.

For the record, I do like it here, and please don't ever change your antagonistic childlike behaviour!
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Uthman
12-10-2009, 06:38 PM
Tone it down please, people.
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جوري
12-10-2009, 06:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Not really. Hyposcrisy only really applies to the individual, and I as an individual do not go against some integral teachings of Jesus unlike other Christians.
It applies to the hoteliers and those who support them, and those who think like them and those running to their defense citing nonsense for reason!

For the record, I do like it here, and please don't ever change your antagonistic childlike behaviour!
1- that is good to know
2- self-reflection is always a good thing, so long as you are capable differentiating it from projection!


all the best as always!
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MSalman
12-10-2009, 07:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Wait, I never said it offended me. I merely stated that insults were exchanged both ways. Most things said against Christianity do not offend me, as strong faith and trust in the teachings of Jesus should not be rocked by a human being.
Whatever the case maybe but you were comparing apples with oranges - not surprising. Your brotherns insulted our sister direclty and not her religion. The issue is not about insulting a religion, the issue is about insulting a person. For you to say insulting a person (calling her terrorist) is not big deal really tells a story about you. How about I do the same to you and we will see what happens then!? Let us not pretend as nothing happens to us when we or our beliefs are insulted.

format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Jesus Himself said
we know what Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) said and we don't need to learn from a history book. and like sister said, you don't even follow that history book.
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