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Karina
12-09-2009, 07:50 PM
I'm studying language in non-human primates as part of my psychology degree.

Bonobo chimps are fascinating in terms of their intelligence and close similarities to humans, even more so than common chimpanzees.

Anyway, their sexual behaviour is also a matter of interest (although maybe more to zoologists than psychologists!) as they frequently 'mate' with most of the members of their group, male AND female, adult or juvenile - whoever! In fact when I say frequently, I mean all day every day, conflict resolution, friendship bonding, for pleasure....

Homosexuality is a no-no in the Qur'an, yet man's closest genetic relative uses it as one of their most frequent passtimes and social tools.

I just wondered - how is this explained in Islam?

PS Forgive me for the controversial subject matter - but this really is a genuine question!
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Alpha Dude
12-09-2009, 08:07 PM
Animals are not bound by Islamic law.
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Karina
12-09-2009, 08:09 PM
Ah-haaaaaaaaa! There's the answer then!

Thanks. :D
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cat eyes
12-09-2009, 08:12 PM
:sl:and who said its only humans that are perverted?:)
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Woodrow
12-09-2009, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Animals are not bound by Islamic law.
I'm just adding a few extra thoughts along that line. Non-Humans, Non-Angels, and Non-Jinn do not have an immortal soul and will not live forever. They have no reason to need to seek Jannah, it is not an option for them. This life is all they have. Sin is a noexistent concept to them, Islamic law does not apply as Bro. Alpha said above.
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جوري
12-09-2009, 08:25 PM
animals are also non-monogamous:

Researchers in animal behavior have long known that monogamy is uncommon in the natural world, but only with the advent of DNA "fingerprinting" have we come to appreciate how truly rare it is. Genetic testing has recently shown that even among many bird species it is not uncommon for 6% to 60% of the young to be fathered by someone other than the mother's social partner. As a result, we now know scientifically what most people have long known privately: that social monogamy does not necessarily imply sexual monogamy.
http://banderasnews.com/0911/hb-monogamyisnteasy.htm

So it appears are animals aren't only un-bound by islamic law.. they also seem to dismiss secular one..

all the best
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CosmicPathos
12-09-2009, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Karina
I'm studying language in non-human primates as part of my psychology degree.

Bonobo chimps are fascinating in terms of their intelligence and close similarities to humans, even more so than common chimpanzees.

Anyway, their sexual behaviour is also a matter of interest (although maybe more to zoologists than psychologists!) as they frequently 'mate' with most of the members of their group, male AND female, adult or juvenile - whoever! In fact when I say frequently, I mean all day every day, conflict resolution, friendship bonding, for pleasure....

Homosexuality is a no-no in the Qur'an, yet man's closest genetic relative uses it as one of their most frequent passtimes and social tools.

I just wondered - how is this explained in Islam?

PS Forgive me for the controversial subject matter - but this really is a genuine question!

How do you come to the conclusion that they are the "closest" to human primates in terms of behavior? By summing up all the similarities? For that matter, rats show amazing similarity to humans in terms of behavior as well as biology. Mind you, they are not as much related genetically at the same time to humans ... so you are just shooting in the dark here by arguing that since humans closest relatives do it, why not humans. Not only that, using argumentation for supporting behavior across species deny the very fact that they are different species.

The argument that if its normal in chimpanzees then it should be normal in humans is fallacious. Widow spider eats its male partner after copulation. That should be allowed in a secular society too for angry females to kill their mates after sex. I bet that would see the rise masculists.
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GreyKode
12-09-2009, 08:38 PM
No offense to the OP, but this has to be the most ridiculous argument regarding homosexuality.
From what little I know, this type of behaviour in animals is more of a dominating practice, the alpha male dominates or humbles the other male, like in prison the big guy does the same for two reasons, to satisfy a sexual desire which if possible it would have been with a female and to demonstrate strength and dominance.
I don't think that's the example of inmates is a very good one to be followed.
Second, the claimed homosexuality in humans is that of desiring males more than females, I don't think that's the case with animals i.e. favouring males even in the presence of a females.
Finally, this is only from my limited knowledge about the issue.
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CosmicPathos
12-09-2009, 08:44 PM
Homosexuality is a psychiatric disorder. I have talked to 3 doctors and that is what their opinion is. Of course they dont voice it because their job and salary is beloved to them. If they do so, their license would be snatched and what not. Anyways. Other psychiatric disorders are the extreme desire to have sex with a dead body, orgasm reached just by looking at women's clothes etc. I do not want to name em all, but getting aroused after looking at the same sex is very similar to getting aroused after looking at bikini.
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BlackMamba
12-09-2009, 09:11 PM
I think it is a psychological disorder, but the APA no longer says so. I think up until the 1970s it was classified by the apa as a mental disorder.
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GuestFellow
12-09-2009, 09:23 PM
Scientifically how would Homosexuality be defined as a disorder?

For disorders, there are set of criteria to be met. Can the same be done with Homosexuality?
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جوري
12-09-2009, 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Scientifically how would Homosexuality be defined as a disorder?

For disorders, there are set of criteria to be met. Can the same be done with Homosexuality?
It was considered a pathological deviation of normal sexual development in DSM-II now in DSM-IV it is considered a normal variant...

http://www.psychiatryonline.com/DSMP...y_Revision.pdf

it was also criminalized in many western societies:

pls see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law

but since the laws have changed in the west, they'd like the rest of the world to jump on the same wagon..

I personally couldn't care less who does what in their bedroom, so long as the rest of us aren't made painfully aware of it on daily basis with allowances that go both against nature, family unit, and religious morality!


and Allah swt knows best

:wa:
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Argamemnon
12-09-2009, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
:sl:and who said its only humans that are perverted?:)
Most humans are worse. Animals can't choose to not be perverted, while humans choose to be perverted and do horrible things. By doing so, a large number of people lower themselves below the level of animals.

:wa:
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Rabi'ya
12-09-2009, 09:53 PM
:sl:

wow, nice thread. i often wondered this. I grew up on a farm and learnt about the birds and the bees when i was about 5! anyway, I often used to watch the sheep and the young male sheep would often "practise" on each other. I always found this strange.
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CosmicPathos
12-09-2009, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Rabi'ya
:sl:

wow, nice thread. i often wondered this. I grew up on a farm and learnt about the birds and the bees when i was about 5! anyway, I often used to watch the sheep and the young male sheep would often "practise" on each other. I always found this strange.
Never heard of homosexuality in sheep.


Regarding APA, they did change their guidelines under the disguise of "scientific reasons" jsut because homosexuals are normal in everything else except sexual behavior. They have great minds and can be good scientists etc. Same cannot be said for people with peadophilic tendencies etc. Could be that homosexuality is a somewhat benign disorder in which other functions of the brain are not damaged and thus apparently does not "meet" the disorder guidelines of APA.
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cat eyes
12-09-2009, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Rabi'ya
:sl:

wow, nice thread. i often wondered this. I grew up on a farm and learnt about the birds and the bees when i was about 5! anyway, I often used to watch the sheep and the young male sheep would often "practise" on each other. I always found this strange.
i would have probably covered my eyes :blind: and got sick +o( that is disgusting man :giggling:
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Rabi'ya
12-09-2009, 10:38 PM
yeh well, believe me i saw pretty much everything on the farm. so nothing really phases me. I saw animals give birth, mating and even used to go with mum to slaughter a chicken for dinner! so nothing new! lol
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Ummu Sufyaan
12-10-2009, 05:28 AM
:sl:
I thought that an animals instinct is run and dictated by their chemical make-up. so if an animal exhibits homosexual traits, couldn't mean that their is some sort of chemical imbalance in them?
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Chuck
12-10-2009, 07:24 AM
Well to my knowledge, they just do sex, it is not homosexuality per se. They exhibit both homosexual and heterosexual behavior. And another thing, it is really difficult to ask them if they prefer male over females.
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Ramadhan
12-10-2009, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by Chuck
Well to my knowledge, they just do sex, it is not homosexuality per se. They exhibit both homosexual and heterosexual behavior. And another thing, it is really difficult to ask them if they prefer male over females.
LOL.

I agree however.
Unlike humans, animals do not have conscience that control their hormonal urges.
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Woodrow
12-11-2009, 04:14 PM
I just realized something. I believe Humans are the only human creature that has to be taught sexual behavior. There also seems to be evidence that we are the only creatures that have a choice about engaging in or not engaging in any sexual act. We are also the only creatures that have freedom of choice over engaging in halal or haram sexual behavior. Our price is we are the only creature that can sin through sexual behavior.

The animal world is free from sin as they are also free from eternal punishment or reward.
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Sampharo
12-11-2009, 05:27 PM
Dogs rub against everything from garden faucets to people's legs on the street when excited, is that now basis to discuss why it isn't acceptable behaviour by humans?
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جوري
12-11-2009, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Sampharo
Dogs rub against everything from garden faucets to people's legs on the street when excited, is that now basis to discuss why it isn't acceptable behaviour by humans?

:sl:

The general idea is to make animalistic behavior common amongst humans and rid us of the spiritual aspect of ourselves for carnal animalistic ones ...
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Cabdullahi
12-11-2009, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by Rabi'ya
:sl:

wow, nice thread. i often wondered this. I grew up on a farm and learnt about the birds and the bees when i was about 5! anyway, I often used to watch the sheep and the young male sheep would often "practise" on each other. I always found this strange.
Sheep?!?................. should've gone to specsavers!!
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- Qatada -
12-11-2009, 08:22 PM
:salamext:


homosexuality, is it right?
Those who claim that homosexuality is right, their reasoning is that these people should have the freedom to have a relationship which they desire without anyone restricting their rights.

They also believe that the homosexual gene can be inherited [although i wonder how this is if a homosexual couple cannot have children together.] Although there is some research to support this, there is also research to prove that homosexuality is not genetic and effected by society only.




Incest Moral?


Now, if people use that as the basis of argument - then they need to question whether it is okay for a brother and sister to commit incest? If they love each other? Why is it still illegal in many parts of the US whereas homosexuality isn't?

If they still agree with that, then they should know that this is immoral, not just because they are having sex with their own family members, but because their children are likely to be affected a great deal by this, since having sex within closer relatives poses more of a threat of genetic diseases.




Sex with Parents Moral?


If the person still believes that they should be allowed to do that, then is it also moral to have sex with ones mother or father? If they both are mature and fit for it, willing to do it?

If someone says that this is moral, then who will their children be? Will they be sons/daughters? What will their child be to them? It can't be a son/daughter, nor can it be a brother/sister - so who is this child to them?


Is this really moral?



Sex with Animals Moral?


How about having sex with an animal, is this moral? Some may argue that animals cannot consent for sex, but what if an animal makes the first move and approaches the person sexually, is it moral then to have sex with that animal?



Eating your Partner?


If the person is still going to play along and think that this is moral, is it moral to have sex with ones partner, and after having intercourse with them - you kill them and then eat them. Is this moral, if both parties had consented to it?

Since people like comparing themselves to animals so much (by arguing that some animals do homosexual acts 'so humans can do it to'), i'd love to hear a response to this - especially the last one (since fishing spiders * eat their mates after mating.)

VORACIOUS female spiders just cannot help trying to eat suitors before sex. Why? It's their aggressive personalities.

Females of several spider and mantis species dine on their partners, but only after acquiring the sperm necessary to fertilise their eggs. By providing his mate with a good meal, the male increases his own reproductive success. But that doesn't explain the behaviour of females that opt for dinner instead of sex, as fishing spiders (Dolomedes triton) often do. "Eating your mate during or after copulating, that's no big deal. Eating your mate beforehand, that's weird," says Chadwick Johnson at the University of Toronto, Canada.

*http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...efore-sex.html
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Woodrow
12-11-2009, 09:00 PM
Good Point. Cannibalism is common among most animals. But, I have yet to see any sane person use that as an excuse to say it is normal in humans.
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Cabdullahi
12-12-2009, 02:49 PM
Im a little skeptic that there's even such thing as homosexuality in monkeys

ask any monkey out there who he prefers and he'll say 'i prefer the female everyday of the week!!'
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Woodrow
12-12-2009, 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by Abdullahii
Im a little skeptic that there's even such thing as homosexuality in monkeys

ask any monkey out there who he prefers and he'll say 'i prefer the female everyday of the week!!'
It is quite common in monkeys. You may want to read a bit about Bonobos.

I think we get a bit confused between Sexual Gratification and Sexuality. Among the animal world there is no such thing as Sexuality. It is simply a question of sexual gratification. The means to acheive such is to use any available means, no real concept of deirability, just a question of what is available. However, sexual urges in animals have very specific triggers. In most animals it is only by estrus in a female that an urge is triggered in a male. so typically the most common method of gratification for the male will be the female in estrus. However, the pheromones produced by the female can travel a long distance and will trigger arousal in a male nowhere near the female, in which case the gratification can take on some rather bizarre methods.
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Chuck
12-12-2009, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Abdullahii
Im a little skeptic that there's even such thing as homosexuality in monkeys

ask any monkey out there who he prefers and he'll say 'i prefer the female everyday of the week!!'
Well, even if there is in animal, argument is still very weak. Animals eat feces, do incest, etc... which humans find very detestable.
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Uthman
12-12-2009, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The animal world is free from sin as they are also free from eternal punishment or reward.
I heard from one of the 'Ulema that Allah will even judge between the animals on the day of judgement. Perhaps one of our knowledgeable brothers or sisters can clarify this.
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Insaanah
12-12-2009, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
I heard from one of the 'Ulema that Allah will even judge between the animals on the day of judgement. Perhaps one of our knowledgeable brothers or sisters can clarify this.
:sl:

The key word in Uncle Woodrow's post is Eternal. Yes, scores will be settled, but then they will be turned to dust. See the following links from Islamqa.com

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/10673/animals%20%20%20dust

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/21679/animals%20%20%20dust

:sl:
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cat eyes
12-12-2009, 08:21 PM
i have goldfish and the males mate together the males also lay eggs and then they eat them :D
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Uthman
12-12-2009, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
:sl:

The key word in Uncle Woodrow's post is Eternal. Yes, scores will be settled, but then they will be turned to dust. See the following links from Islamqa.com

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/10673/animals%20%20%20dust

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/21679/animals%20%20%20dust

:sl:
:wasalamex

JazakAllah Khayr.
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Cabdullahi
12-12-2009, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
i have goldfish and the males mate together the males also lay eggs and then they eat them :D
thanks for the explicit details
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cat eyes
12-12-2009, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Abdullahii
thanks for the explicit details
your welcome :giggling:
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Woodrow
12-12-2009, 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
i have goldfish and the males mate together the males also lay eggs and then they eat them :D
:wa:

Not quite certain how to break the news to you. but, if it lays eggs it is a female. Sorry, but males are incapable of laying eggs.
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cat eyes
12-12-2009, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:wa:

Not quite certain how to break the news to you. but, if it lays eggs it is a female. Sorry, but males are incapable of laying eggs.
yeah i think you might be right actually i don't know what fool told me that the male goldfish lays eggs lol
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Cabdullahi
12-12-2009, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
yeah i think you might be right actually i don't know what fool told me that the male goldfish lays eggs lol
Males do lay eggs.....dinosaur eggs to be precise and they can be found cracking in the bowls at the public toilets
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Ramadhan
12-13-2009, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by Abdullahii
Males do lay eggs.....dinosaur eggs to be precise and they can be found cracking in the bowls at the public toilets
:skeleton:

:exhausted
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