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Khaldun
12-11-2009, 09:32 PM
:sl:

Most of you might know that I am somali. And like other arabs we have tribes, so everyone knows who everyone else is. Every single somali can be pinpointed down. This knowledge has been preseverd throughout the ages and no one can lie about their tribe. I am sure many muslim countries have tribes too like pakistan india etc

But what I wanted to know is, is there some sort of tribal knowledge left in the west? Is there some kind of tribe thing still there? Or perhaps as soon as families grow large they loose contact with eachother?
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Supreme
12-11-2009, 10:50 PM
Not really. Tribes are generally seen as uncivilised in the West.
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Khaldun
12-11-2009, 10:56 PM
:sl:

call it clans or whatever you want, i am sure there must be some sort of lineage even if its abit back in history?

Also what is uncivilised about tribes Supreme?
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Donia
12-11-2009, 11:08 PM
Wa alaikum asalaam.

Thank you for sharing this info, brother. I had no idea.
In America, I think lineage is best traced by a family tree. I believe the Native Americans still have active tribes also. I could be wrong and somebody please correct me if I am.
Anywhere I can go to get more info on this topic? I find it interesting for some reason.
JazakAllah.
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Woodrow
12-11-2009, 11:18 PM
:sl:

To some extent in the USA States are taking on some resemblance to tribes. People tend to Identify themselves as being say a New Yorker or Texan or whatever State the person is from. Each State tends to speak it's own dialect of English, especially in terms of slang. Also each State seems to be specialized as to industry etc. such as where I am the predominate industry is farming. Other States such as Connecticut the industry is more in terms of services.

But, as far as tribal affiliations nearly all Americans are mixed race and/or nationality. The typical American has no single family background. Most of us, like my self, can best be described as the result of an explosion at a UN meeting. I doubt if most Americans have 2 grandparents from the same cultural/ethnic/national heritage.

Only in America can you go into a Chinese Restaurant, owned by a German and order Chicken Biryani cooked by a Jamaican chef. the concept of tribes is not even comprehended by Americans.
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Junon
12-11-2009, 11:35 PM
Salaam

Interesting question brother, I'll just give you my opinion. Im typing on the hoof so forgive my typos :nervous:

The tribal system in Western system has fallen into disuse due to economic and social changes in Western societies. The family system especially in UK and the US has been continually undermined so the idea of kinship and community isnt one thats highly valued :hmm:. Instead what you have is a very atomised, individualistic existence, 'look after number one' etc etc.

However having said that it still exisits in some parts, you still have remants of the clan system in Scotland and in some areas you do have people who still believe in strong ties of kinship and family (usually from religious backgrounds). The rich of society still believe in family system as well (Just check out employers and employees of newspapers).

In Italy you still have very strong family and kin networks (Catholic influence). I know its an old film but the Godfather gives you an idea of importance of family and loyalty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdDO2...eature=related

Hope that makes sense!
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Supreme
12-11-2009, 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:

call it clans or whatever you want, i am sure there must be some sort of lineage even if its abit back in history?

Also what is uncivilised about tribes Supreme?

Many people look down on tribes as silly gangs who only accept people who look like you. The constant tribal wars in Africa over things such as water, food and territory hardly help matters. It's seen as a means of dividing people due to family/village circumstance.
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Woodrow
12-12-2009, 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by Donia
Wa alaikum asalaam.

Thank you for sharing this info, brother. I had no idea.
In America, I think lineage is best traced by a family tree. I believe the Native Americans still have active tribes also. I could be wrong and somebody please correct me if I am.
Anywhere I can go to get more info on this topic? I find it interesting for some reason.
JazakAllah.
Yes, the Native Americans do their best to retain their tribal linage. But it is getting to be more difficult as the young are leaving the reservations and by doing so loosing their tribal ties and heritage.
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Karl
12-12-2009, 12:56 AM
World War 2 was basically a tribal war, as the Nazis wanted to purge Europe of non Germinic tribes and liberate Germanic tribes in the East eg Novgorod. Tribalism is everywhere in Europe today, it is labelled as racism, anti semitism, Neo Nazism etc. It is tribal identity and sovereignty. England is considered Anglo Saxon turf. Scotland is Gailic and Viking. Minorities (eg Jews) suppress tribalism using the media and administrational political positions out of fear of Genocidal backlashes in Europe and the US.
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Khaldun
12-12-2009, 12:11 PM
:sl:

Some very interesting replies, thank you all for your input.

You are right supreme but thats the fault of mankind. In the Qur'aan Allah explains the function of tribes clearly and tells us what really makes one human being better then another.

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ

O men! Behold, We have created you all out of a male and a female, and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware.

Even the Prophet said in his last sermon:

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.




How many of the members here actually know their lineage? I dont mean back to Adam or something, but perhaps two or three hundred years back? And if you dont know it yourself do you have any living relative that you could ask?
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Danah
12-12-2009, 12:31 PM
^Interesting...I know my lineage but not in detail though. At least I know who is our great grand grand....etc father

I think this tribe thing is more preserved in the Arab culture unlike Europeans or Americans or even some far asian people as in Singapore where you can find more than one ethnicity like 4 or 5 in the same family.
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Supreme
12-12-2009, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
World War 2 was basically a tribal war, as the Nazis wanted to purge Europe of non Germinic tribes and liberate Germanic tribes in the East eg Novgorod. Tribalism is everywhere in Europe today, it is labelled as racism, anti semitism, Neo Nazism etc. It is tribal identity and sovereignty. England is considered Anglo Saxon turf. Scotland is Gailic and Viking. Minorities (eg Jews) suppress tribalism using the media and administrational political positions out of fear of Genocidal backlashes in Europe and the US.
Perhaps that's partially true for Europe, although what about the war in the Pacific against Japan? Or the wars in Africa against Italy?

England is no longer 'Anglo Saxon' turf. Pure Anglo Saxons in England are now in a small minority, and probably don't even know themselves they're Anglo Saxon.
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Cabdullahi
12-12-2009, 03:35 PM
Keep it real my somali brother!....tribes are causing so much trouble in the mother land :(
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Snowflake
12-12-2009, 03:53 PM
To claim/belong to a tribe one would have to know his (paternal) blood line. I don't think this would be possible in the non-muslim West even if they tried; simply because many children don't know who their father is, or they believe someone to be their father when he isn't.
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Danah
12-12-2009, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah
To claim/belong to a tribe one would have to know his (paternal) blood line. I don't think this would be possible in the non-muslim West even if they tried; simply because many children don't know who their father is, or they believe someone to be their father when he isn't.
very good point!
thats true in many cases
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Supreme
12-12-2009, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah
To claim/belong to a tribe one would have to know his (paternal) blood line. I don't think this would be possible in the non-muslim West even if they tried; simply because many children don't know who their father is, or they believe someone to be their father when he isn't.
I'm sorry, I had to laugh. Is the only information you get about the West from Eastenders or something?
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Danah
12-12-2009, 04:04 PM
^ well you can't deny that many don't know their fathers, can you?
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Raaina
12-12-2009, 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
I'm sorry, I had to laugh. Is the only information you get about the West from Eastenders or something?
That comment made me laugh :statisfie

Interesting topic though about tribes.
I don't think tribes really work in the west, considering we don't even have community support anymore, unless you live in a rural remote village maybe, they are usually quite close, but thats not really a tribe.
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Khaldun
12-12-2009, 05:05 PM
:sl:

Yes perhaps it might be partially due to zina.

SubhanAllah a few minutes of pleasure leads to the downfall of social structure not to mention all the other harms it brings.
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alcurad
12-12-2009, 05:22 PM
people form tribes here as well, but around football teams and such, or as Woodrow said around city or state or maybe even profession. sports especially are a way to maintain 'fighting' spirit and tribal cohesion, vestiges of the past to many, but unless our brain structure changes we'll still form tribes whenever we can.

the extended family is no longer a solid anchor in most of the world, industrialization + information age changed everything, sort of like how Agriculture did in the far past to our ancestors-from nomads to village/city dwellers.

nowadays people will have less children than their parents did, and everyone will want to enjoy their lives more instead of upholding any notion of 'responsibility to procreate' etc.

/rant
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syilla
12-14-2009, 02:06 AM
try geni.com

It is a very great place to the lineage project...lol

I've done mine...and it is getting too big...i think :skeleton:
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Grofica
12-14-2009, 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

To some extent in the USA States are taking on some resemblance to tribes. People tend to Identify themselves as being say a New Yorker or Texan or whatever State the person is from. Each State tends to speak it's own dialect of English, especially in terms of slang. Also each State seems to be specialized as to industry etc. such as where I am the predominate industry is farming. Other States such as Connecticut the industry is more in terms of services.

But, as far as tribal affiliations nearly all Americans are mixed race and/or nationality. The typical American has no single family background. Most of us, like my self, can best be described as the result of an explosion at a UN meeting. I doubt if most Americans have 2 grandparents from the same cultural/ethnic/national heritage.

Only in America can you go into a Chinese Restaurant, owned by a German and order Chicken Biryani cooked by a Jamaican chef. the concept of tribes is not even comprehended by Americans.
I love your answer!!! but yes woodrow is right.... 100%
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Grofica
12-14-2009, 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah
To claim/belong to a tribe one would have to know his (paternal) blood line. I don't think this would be possible in the non-muslim West even if they tried; simply because many children don't know who their father is, or they believe someone to be their father when he isn't.
oh it's not that bad.... we know who our dad's are its just most parents are divorced... its so not how the movies and jerry springer portray it....
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KAding
12-14-2009, 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:

Most of you might know that I am somali. And like other arabs we have tribes, so everyone knows who everyone else is. Every single somali can be pinpointed down. This knowledge has been preseverd throughout the ages and no one can lie about their tribe. I am sure many muslim countries have tribes too like pakistan india etc

But what I wanted to know is, is there some sort of tribal knowledge left in the west? Is there some kind of tribe thing still there? Or perhaps as soon as families grow large they loose contact with eachother?
Well, isn't the nation just a big tribe? Though nations aren't usually defined based on a genetic connection though, they are about citizenship.

But then again, why should I care about ethnic or 'blood' relationship? I am certainly not aware of any kind of background in my family that could be understood as 'tribal'. But of course, we haven't had real tribes in these regions in literally more than a thousand years.

I'm not even sure what it means to be part of a tribe to be honest. How does it affect your life exactly? Is your tribe hierarchical in any way?
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Khaldun
12-15-2009, 01:59 AM
:sl:

Tribes serve many purposes from amongst which are providing help and protection and a sense of belonging. Just in the same way as if you are in a foreign country all alone and you walk down the street and you hear someone speaking your mother tongue you might genuinly be happy because you feel you can connect with this person etc.

In Islaam there are no sense of a hierachal tribe system, a person is not better then another just based on what tribe he might be from (as explained in my previous post)

Do not people in the west have family trees? Is their past really that lost that they do not know whom their ancestors are?
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Al-Indunisiy
12-15-2009, 02:57 AM
:sl:

Well, the European royal families maybe. Does that count?

:wa:
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Grofica
12-15-2009, 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
Do not people in the west have family trees? Is their past really that lost that they do not know whom their ancestors are?
you make us sound like we are lost cavemen... we care some people have traced their family back to the 1400 (like my aunt has with ours) but as a general rule we dont sit down and tell storys of people from years and years ago.... we know our parents and our grandparents its just not as important on where we came from because we are all so mixed... american means american it doesnt matter where your from... america was built by immigrants there is no one person there. everyone who is there migrated from somewhere.

i mean no offence but why do you think we are lost neandrathals?
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Woodrow
12-15-2009, 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:



Do not people in the west have family trees? Is their past really that lost that they do not know whom their ancestors are?
:wa:

For many of us in the USA it is nearly impossible to trace beyond ones grandparents, unless you are from a long line English family. Most of us in the USA are second or third generation Americans and our family trees stop at the time of immigration. I was one of the fortunate ones who was able to go back further because I learned of my family from my grandparents.
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Donia
12-15-2009, 04:20 AM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
:sl:

Tribes serve many purposes from amongst which are providing help and protection and a sense of belonging. Just in the same way as if you are in a foreign country all alone and you walk down the street and you hear someone speaking your mother tongue you might genuinly be happy because you feel you can connect with this person etc.

In Islaam there are no sense of a hierachal tribe system, a person is not better then another just based on what tribe he might be from (as explained in my previous post)

Do not people in the west have family trees? Is their past really that lost that they do not know whom their ancestors are?
On the first paragraph.. I found that so interesting that you said that because that is how I feel when I see another sister in hijab outside whether it be at the grocery store or wherever. Masha'Allah.
People in the west do have family trees. I'm not sure how many people are actually willing or even care enough to know about it though. :hmm: Kind of sad.
I'm guessing because your "status" is not so much based on your lineage except in some specific cases (like if you are Donald Trump's children, etc.) but I think it is more based on how successful you as a person are... career, financially.. Hope that makes sense.
It would be so much better if more people evaluated others on their true character. Insha'Allah.
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Snowflake
12-15-2009, 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by Supreme
I'm sorry, I had to laugh. Is the only information you get about the West from Eastenders or something?

No there's more but didn't want to go off topic! : D

..btw, any idea what happened to the woman on the Maury show who had 23 men tested for paternity and none of them were her baby's daddy? :hmm:
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KAding
12-15-2009, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by Khaldun
Do not people in the west have family trees? Is their past really that lost that they do not know whom their ancestors are?
Some people keep track of their family trees as a kind of hobby. But I don't personally know anyone that does, so it is not that widespread I think.

It's just that I do not understand why it would matter? All it is is a blood relationship. You don't know these people any better than you do any other stranger. I just doesn't seem like a sensible way to relate to people.

On the other hand, I am sure it is very comforting to have such an extended community on which you know you can rely. In this individualized era some people really do end up abandoned and alone.
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Muezzin
12-15-2009, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Some people keep track of their family trees as a kind of hobby. But I don't personally know anyone that does, so it is not that widespread I think.

It's just that I do not understand why it would matter? All it is is a blood relationship. You don't know these people any better than you do any other stranger. I just doesn't seem like a sensible way to relate to people.

On the other hand, I am sure it is very comforting to have such an extended community on which you know you can rely. In this individualized era some people really do end up abandoned and alone.
If you want a different understanding of family trees, try reading up on some Probate Law. ;)
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Maryan0
12-15-2009, 11:53 PM
I can go back 17 generations of men not women on my mom's side and 8 generations on my dad's. It seems weird to me not to know your ancestors or your origins but then again i'm somali also, so tribalism and knowing your lineage is important.
salam
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