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جوري
12-12-2009, 01:27 AM
This story along with a few others have just horrified me-- words are worthless to describe the emotion since my mind can't even wrap around it... let alone when the mother is the culprit.. sob7an Allah.. so many people rich and poor, young and old struggle to have a healthy beautiful child, would give anything in the world to have a baby like that and this woman abuses her and kills her.. why why whyyyyyyyy? deranged ***** I want to wring her neck.. I hope they give her the death penalty!

Anthony Sobs at Account of Daughter's Death




Updated: 2 hours 42 minutes ago

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Mike Schneider AP

ORLANDO, Fla. (Dec. 11) -- A Florida mother charged with killing her 2-year-old daughter sobbed in court Friday as a prosecutor speculated aloud that the toddler was methodically drugged and suffocated with tape.

Casey Anthony cried as prosecutor Jeff Ashton suggested that Caylee Anthony's killer restrained her arms, dosed her with something that knocked her unconscious and put duct tape over her mouth and nose.

Ashton offered the scenario when explaining why he believes the case would qualify for the death penalty.

"Her killer would prepare some substance in advance that would render her physically unable to resist," said Ashton during the pretrial hearing. "If the killer looked at her face, maybe the killer saw her eyes. ... First one piece (of tape), then two, then three so that no breath was possible."

The cause of Caylee's death remains unknown, but duct tape was found on the body.
Little Girl Lost



Red Huber, Pool / MCT
18 photos

Casey Anthony sobbed in court Friday as a prosecutor suggested that her daughter's killer restrained and drugged her. Anthony's attorneys are asking a judge to stop prosecutors from seeking the death penalty in her murder trial.






Ashton offered the scenario in response to a defense request to bar prosecutors from seeking the death penalty.

Circuit Judge Stan Strickland said he would rule later.

Because the cause of death is still unknown, prosecutors are unable to prove that she suffered a heinous, cruel or atrocious death, which is the standard under Florida law for seeking the death penalty, said Andrea Lyon, one of Anthony's attorneys.

"The real reason the state has asked for the death penalty is because they wish to get as biased a jury as they possibly can," Lyon said. "It has the effect of coercing pleas in cases where that may in fact not be appropriate."

Anthony's attorneys contend that jurors in death-penalty cases, who are screened to eliminate those with moral objections to capital punishment, are more likely to convict defendants. The defense also says the threat of the death penalty could be used to coerce Anthony into making a plea agreement.

Anthony has pleaded not guilty and her trial is expected to start next year.
Filed under: Nation, Crime
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

http://www.sphere.com/crime/article/...death/19275721
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Insecured soul
12-12-2009, 01:59 AM
oh my god, i just cant belive that :S
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جوري
12-12-2009, 02:10 AM
she wanted to give her up

for adoption.. I can't imagine a mother doing that.. yet now, I think how much better off for that sweet little girl to have been adopted in a good loving home than dumped and gagged like some sort of worthless animal..

I am very sad.. May Allah swt bless this sweet child.. I keep imagining her horror at the moment of her death that the person she most trusted would do this to her and leave her in some unmarked grave cold and alone for animals possible to feed on.. My God it is just so cruel, I can't stand it...

I wish I hadn't seen the news today.. I am very upset and saddened by this imsad
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Insecured soul
12-12-2009, 02:24 AM
look at her, she looks like a doll, there are several such stories all over the world. they are not humans anymore they are actually shaytaan in human form
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Supreme
12-12-2009, 12:46 PM
If she isn't a fan of burning in fire, then there's no hope for her and her evil crimes.
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amirebi
12-12-2009, 01:36 PM
God creates us with love, he expects us to love each other, but some of us,humankinds, are not worth living in this beautiful world...
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Caller الداعي
12-12-2009, 01:42 PM
astagfirullah!!!
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dovelove
12-13-2009, 01:49 AM
salam alakom
oh another sad story about a child robbed of their life by the same people who were here to protect and raise them, its too common. while the parent must hav been most definetly at the time been suffering some kind of severe mental disorder, we shud not be so quick to condemn them to hell cos if they really repent to Allah He is the only one who can judge them, while it does make one o so sad and angry we r angry about the action and we shud try to forgive the human.

and i am not sticking up for the woman but i feel the death penalty is kinda wrong especially in the USA. fostering should be something that much more muslims are willing to partake in, giving many more children stability and loving homes that some need so badly.

women wanting to give children up for adoption face no easy hand over child and forget, for some it can be a longlasting trauma, and they do it because they fear they cannot cope. it is the systems that repeatedly fail mothers and children, this ties in with my above comments about hating the actions of people rather than the people.

all children that die in innocence go to paradise isnt it? And all is done by the will of Allah so try not b too sad, as evil and disgusting as the actions maybe :( :(
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I<3Bush
12-13-2009, 01:54 AM
I'm surprised her case has lasted this long. Her story was never consistent, and they have a lot of evidence against her.
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Donia
12-13-2009, 05:21 AM
I remember this story. Hadn't heard any recent updates on it so thank you for posting this article sis.
It is so sad to me everytime I see a case like this.
May Allah protect our children. Ameen.
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جوري
12-13-2009, 05:25 AM
Originally Posted by dovelove
salam alakom
oh another sad story about a child robbed of their life by the same people who were here to protect and raise them, its too common. while the parent must hav been most definetly at the time been suffering some kind of severe mental disorder, we shud not be so quick to condemn them to hell cos if they really repent to Allah He is the only one who can judge them, while it does make one o so sad and angry we r angry about the action and we shud try to forgive the human.

and i am not sticking up for the woman but i feel the death penalty is kinda wrong especially in the USA. fostering should be something that much more muslims are willing to partake in, giving many more children stability and loving homes that some need so badly.

women wanting to give children up for adoption face no easy hand over child and forget, for some it can be a longlasting trauma, and they do it because they fear they cannot cope. it is the systems that repeatedly fail mothers and children, this ties in with my above comments about hating the actions of people rather than the people.

all children that die in innocence go to paradise isnt it? And all is done by the will of Allah so try not b too sad, as evil and disgusting as the actions maybe :( :(
I agree with you to an extent, except I believe in the death penalty as an expiation of sin amongst other things, and though adoption might be a difficult decision, I can't imagine a mother not making that sacrifice (to be with her child).. children are our wold and future.. sobhan Allah, for certain Allah swt has wisdom to try us in different ways.. there are many people who have sold everything to have a child, and she not only wanted to give her up for adoption but killed her in a heinous fashion when she couldn't fulfill that desire (to give her up)...she is not my child and I am trying to console myself that insha'Allah that sweet little girl is in paradise, but she is also the same age as my youngest niece and nephew and the thought of them ....... asthgor Allah, I can't fathom such a heinous crime, may Allah swt save us from such tribulations .. I am very sad for this little girl.. and I want justice for her, I don't think there is a bigger betrayal than deceit from the one who is supposed to love and protect you against all the ills in the world...
I think the only honorable thing for this woman to do is admit to guilt and let us know why? Why in God's name would anyone do that to a two year old? imsad

:wa:
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Italianguy
12-13-2009, 06:33 AM
That is just sick!+o(

I only can pray for her, we all know what is in store for that mother when she stands before Allah. How do you answer to that?

At least we know the little girl is in a better place than with that mother.

God be with her!
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cat eyes
12-13-2009, 10:40 PM
:sl: some people kill because they are under the influence of something much more stronger and that is our devils on our left shoulder, every human has one tempting them to do these types of things however some people just give into these whispers.. when there baby is crying to much or there kids are giving them a hard time.
these evil ginns are always there waiting for us humans to snap believe it or not. ive seen women beating the living daylights outa there kids on the road and in shopping malls. its all tests and trials we have to face and how we cope with it. single mothers which are poor can easily break down..they just lose all hope and feel they are being punished so they no longer care and give into there desires they start to hate god they feel they have nothing to live for anyway,

its a whole endless cruel cycle probably of her being rejected by men because she had a kid who know's and when that person loses hope thats when the shaytan takes full control of course not to worry this woman will still be held accountable for her crime on the day of judgement.
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Rabi'ya
12-13-2009, 10:44 PM
May Allah protect our children from these devils that live amongst us.ameen

It makes me physically sick to think of this happening and that poor little child.

The killers will get their punishment, preferably death and removal from thif life. they wlil surely get a much harsher punishment in the next.
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abu salaahudeen
12-14-2009, 07:35 PM
this is the society that we are living in
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AlHoda
12-14-2009, 07:39 PM
She should be executed at least :raging: What did this poor baby do?!
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aamirsaab
12-14-2009, 10:04 PM
:sl:
I don't know what is worse: the fact that this vile act occured or that I'm not phased at all by it (because of the frequency of these kinds of disgusting crimes and how it is becoming less of a shock).

I mean, when I was growing up, theft was the worst crime I could comprehend - like it was the worst crime possible. Nowadays, rape and murder...and this kinda of pure evil plagues society. It's terrible and I don't think it will get better.

May Allah grant the child firdaus.
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aadil77
12-14-2009, 10:18 PM
atleast the kids goin to jannah guarenteed, lucky
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Rabi'ya
12-14-2009, 10:20 PM
:sl:

aamirsaab - I completely agree. It is shocking that we just accept it as normality. and really worrying. sometimes its good to be sheltered from all these things.
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dovelove
12-15-2009, 12:01 AM
i know the woman done wrong very wrong, but stil i dont think we r in the position to judge her actions, did we witness it, no, do we know why she did it, no, do we know her life story, no- well ok we gather she must hav been a sik individual but that said, who knows what was going thru her mind or goin on in her life, not everyone is strong enuff to ignore the devil within and if she was wired on drugs or under constant intoxication, pychological distress, mayb she did not comprehend her actions.

yes some people hav tuff lives and pull themselves thru but some people just dont kno how, and its not fair for us get up on the high horse like we judge jury and executioner Islam dont teach that... or does it? i mean wat if she accepts Islam after a detox and rehabilitation?

many people do commit henious crimes while under longterm intoxication, and while im not saying its ok to do such crimes while intoxicated, we shudnt be judging her like so, perhaps when she had time to clean up she may realise that her actons were very bad and then she may turn to Allah.

I dont believe in the death penalty cos in these times i dont think anyone is sin free to chuck the first stone if u kno wat im sayin....... and we will be all be meeting with our Lord who will tell us we we did, wat is repentance for if governments r gonna give ppl the death penalty and end their life of repentance?

i mean come on obviously this woman is clearly mentally disturbed, thats wat kind of woman would commit a crime like this to her own 2 year old, if this was any crime and done while someone is mentally disturbed i dont think they should b given the death penalty.

yea the sheltered life is nice, but i dont think its good to b unable to relate to real life things, not only relate but grasp the concept that good muslims can come from the unsheltered life, if they r given a chance.

if someone does something bad 2 us, shud we go do the same bad thing to them?

and thats my opinion to me seems logical, and Allah knows best, the Owner of the Day of Judgement for all mankind and jinn.
peace
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جوري
12-15-2009, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
I don't know what is worse: the fact that this vile act occured or that I'm not phased at all by it (because of the frequency of these kinds of disgusting crimes and how it is becoming less of a shock).

I mean, when I was growing up, theft was the worst crime I could comprehend - like it was the worst crime possible. Nowadays, rape and murder...and this kinda of pure evil plagues society. It's terrible and I don't think it will get better.

May Allah grant the child firdaus.
:sl:
I wish I could feel less shocked about it or desensitized but it keeps playing in my mind-- it upset me in a very bad way I think perhaps since the Megan Kanka story and another one of a young girl who was raped and shot by this 60 year old guy, when he shot her he didn't kill her completely at her autopsy there were signs that she tried to climb from the area he left her for dead her nails were broken with dirt beneath her nails.. Astghfor Allah.. I really wish I could just let it go but I don't know how in fact even writing about it hasn't made a difference...

I can't understand how this woman wants to be free and a part of society after what she has done.. she must really be a sociopath =(

I don't believe she has mental illness.. andrea yates had serious postpartum psychosis and prematurely released from the psych. ward.. this woman is very calculating.. if they won't give her the death penalty then I hope she sits there and has the images of this poor girl especially her last moments haunt her for the rest of her miserable life...
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Donia
12-15-2009, 04:13 AM
SubhanAllah..
This topic just makes me really sad. I am not at all desensitized to it. I think it happens way to much and everytime I hear about it happening in another story, it just makes me sick.
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Argamemnon
12-15-2009, 06:58 PM
If I had my way I would throw that woman into a volcano.
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cat eyes
12-15-2009, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by dovelove
i know the woman done wrong very wrong, but stil i dont think we r in the position to judge her actions, did we witness it, no, do we know why she did it, no, do we know her life story, no- well ok we gather she must hav been a sik individual but that said, who knows what was going thru her mind or goin on in her life, not everyone is strong enuff to ignore the devil within and if she was wired on drugs or under constant intoxication, pychological distress, mayb she did not comprehend her actions.

yes some people hav tuff lives and pull themselves thru but some people just dont kno how, and its not fair for us get up on the high horse like we judge jury and executioner Islam dont teach that... or does it? i mean wat if she accepts Islam after a detox and rehabilitation?

many people do commit henious crimes while under longterm intoxication, and while im not saying its ok to do such crimes while intoxicated, we shudnt be judging her like so, perhaps when she had time to clean up she may realise that her actons were very bad and then she may turn to Allah.

I dont believe in the death penalty cos in these times i dont think anyone is sin free to chuck the first stone if u kno wat im sayin....... and we will be all be meeting with our Lord who will tell us we we did, wat is repentance for if governments r gonna give ppl the death penalty and end their life of repentance?

i mean come on obviously this woman is clearly mentally disturbed, thats wat kind of woman would commit a crime like this to her own 2 year old, if this was any crime and done while someone is mentally disturbed i dont think they should b given the death penalty.

yea the sheltered life is nice, but i dont think its good to b unable to relate to real life things, not only relate but grasp the concept that good muslims can come from the unsheltered life, if they r given a chance.

if someone does something bad 2 us, shud we go do the same bad thing to them?

and thats my opinion to me seems logical, and Allah knows best, the Owner of the Day of Judgement for all mankind and jinn.
peace
:sl:You do have a point no matter what the crime its Allah who will judge at the end of it all. there is people out there who are mentally sick and hear voices and tell them to do such things. i have so much compassion for the mentally ill too humm maybe because my brother suffered a great deal of hardship trying to fight these demons that were disturbing him and tormenting all the rest of the family. i still see this woman as human like all the rest of us and not some type of monster.

you know i always sometimes would say''how could a person do this. they might go to hell'' believe it or not i ended up doing the same sin or close to it not completely but close so i will finish of this post with this duaa, Allah should protect each and everyone of us of these whispering devils who tempt us if anytime we are feeling at our lowest or going through any hardship Ameen it can happen to any one of us people have to remember that. anybody can go insane by the will of Allah through black magic or any other thing.
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Karl
12-16-2009, 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I want to wring her neck.. I hope they give her the death penalty!
With all due respect, Goss, your judgmental vigilante rhetoric sounds more to me like jumped up selfrighteous kafir mentality rather than the way I would normally expect a Muslim to act. What you don't seem to understand is that this is strictly a DOMESTIC affair, NOT a public affair, NOT your affair, NOT my affair, NOT anyone's affair except that of the parents, and ultimately something that only ALLAH has the right to judge. If there is to be any judge it should only be ALLAH. How parents raise their OWN offspring is 100% their OWN business! It is NOT yours, or anyone else's business to get involved! Also not only does it come as a shock to me that you have this jumped up busybody attitude, you are furthermore involving yourself in the affairs of NON Muslims as well! That really takes the cake, Goss.

There is an old maxim that states "A man's house is his castle", and I place a maximal and imperative importance on this and PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS. I shall raise my OWN offspring 100% AS I SEE FIT! And any busybody selfrighteous socialist who thinks they have the right to get involved in my affairs automatically become my sworn ENEMY and my sights will be honed in on them. I don't care if the busybody culprit who selfrighteously barges into my house even calls themself a "Muslim". Once an outsider (no matter WHO they are) interferes in my PRIVATE affairs and crosses onto my private property against my consent is when they have rendered themselves none other than a busybody socialist TRESPASSER, as far as I'm concerned. Any such person(s) would class as my sworn enemy and I will fight and resist them with everything it takes. All matters between myself and my offspring are 100% up to Allah's judgment, NOT a bunch of busybody selfrighteous interfering vigilante lefties. Any misdeeds (or perceived misdeeds) that I ever commit against my OWN offspring are strictly between ME and ALLAH alone. It will never ever be any or your or anyone else's business whatsoever. You have NO natural right to make any judgment on that woman because you have NOTHING to do with her. That shall only be of Allah's rightful will to judge her how HE sees. Please don't get me wrong, Gossamer, and please don't take me as cold and callous. No doubt about it, such things are sad, but the only natural right we have is to feel pity and sadness alone. However, the moment we become involved in affairs that are simply not ours to begin with is when we have crossed the line and are trespassing onto someone's private property and into their private affairs. And I will stand strong against that kind of behaviour and will fight against it at all cost.
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Karl
12-16-2009, 04:27 AM
Dovelove said: "He is the only one who can judge them, while it does make one o so sad and angry we r angry about the action and we shud try to forgive the human."

While things like this might be sad, I'd utterly refuse to ever become "angry" over it. This is because getting angry over it is akin to assuming or implying AUTHORITY. I have absolutely NO natural authority over their personal affairs therefore it is NONE of my business. I am always irritated by the collectivist talk these days of "OUR children this, OUR children that". I am NOT a communist! My next door neighbour's offspring are HIS, they are NOT "ours". My offspring are MINE, they are NOT "yours" or "ours"! But every single creature on earth does belong to Allah, and Allah alone. We are all HIS property.

Gossamer said: "children are our world and future.."

That may be so. However it only really means anything from an individualistic parent point of view, not a collectivist point of view. Your children might be YOUR future, but they certainly are not MY future. And vice versa-- my offspring are only MY future, they are NOT your or anyone else's future. I know I might be stating the obvious here, but I just wanted to make sure you understand that little point because your parlance has a definitely familiar leftist/communist edge to it.


Rabi'ya said: "The killers will get their punishment, preferably death and removal from thif life. they wlil surely get a much harsher punishment in the next."

Alhoda said: "She should be executed at least"

Fair enough, but that should only be for Allah to dish that out, NOT you, not me, and not any self-important bunch of busybody communists who thinks they are Allah themselves. It is up to Allah to strike them down with lightening (if he so chooses).


Rabi'ya said: "It is shocking that we just accept it as normality"

Because this is simply none of your business to begin with, it is therefore not up to you to either "accept" or "not accept" it as "normality". It may not be "normal" for you to do, but it may be normal for them.


Dovelove said: "i know the woman done wrong very wrong, but stil i dont think we r in the position to judge her actions, did we witness it, no, do we know why she did it, no, do we know her life story, no- well ok we gather she must hav been a sik individual but that said, who knows what was going thru her mind or goin on in her life, not everyone is strong enuff to ignore the devil within and if she was wired on drugs or under constant intoxication, pychological distress, mayb she did not comprehend her actions."

Some very good points. However you missed the fundamental point that we are not in any position to judge because it is NOT even our BUSINESS to begin with how they raise their OWN offspring, no matter WHAT the situation. Your points were good, but they are only peripheral points when compared to fundamental importance of what I have just pointed out to you.

"...and its not fair for us get up on the high horse like we judge jury and executioner Islam dont teach that"

Absolutely!! If there is to be any judge, jury and executioner then ALLAH shall be all that alone, except of course there won't be any need for a jury, as ALLAH is the only judge, and he is infallible.


Gossamer said: "I can't understand how this woman wants to be free and a part of society after what she has done.."

Did you ask her if she even wanted to be part of someone's "society" to begin with? How do you know that she wanted to have anything to do with anyone's "society"??

Argamemnon said: "If I had my way I would throw that woman into a volcano."

Careful! Who are YOU to judge her? Don't pretend to be Allah, otherwise you might just find that he will judge YOU in a way not pretty at all!


cat eyes said: "You do have a point no matter what the crime its Allah who will judge at the end of it all."

Absolutely!! I am with you all the way there! I give you full marks on that statement:)
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جوري
12-16-2009, 04:51 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
With all due respect, Goss, your judgmental vigilante rhetoric sounds more to me like jumped up selfrighteous kafir mentality rather than the way I would normally expect a Muslim to act.
How should a Muslim react in your mind?
What you don't seem to understand is that this is strictly a DOMESTIC affair, NOT a public affair, NOT your affair, NOT my affair, NOT anyone's affair except that of the parents, and ultimately something that only ALLAH has the right to judge. If there is to be any judge it should only be ALLAH.
1- I haven't set out to wring her neck (I was expressing an opinion) with hopes that the highest level of justice will be served.
2- She is being charged with first degree murder with highest penalty sought, thus whether in my mind I think her guilty or not is inconsequential (again, my thoughts are of a young life snuffed in a vile manner) and the records are made public in other words it is no longer a private affair! such things as not reporting her missing for five weeks, seems to indicate so little regard for life (whether her own or someone else') I certainly hope that when one is made aware of someone being missing or dying that they'd at least offer an anonymous call so someone who does care would offer help.. it is called a 'good Samaritan law' -- we don't live in a lawless world..
3- We are given shari3a to impose justice on earth.. and the crime for voluntary man-slaughter is death just like the crime for theft is to have your hand cut off.. if you don't like such laws because it is by way of 'judging' then perhaps you shouldn't be a Muslim all together (I have always had my doubts that you are anyway)

you can't be a leftist and support the death penalty by the way.. you are a dynamo of a hyperbole!


How parents raise their OWN offspring is 100% their OWN business! It is NOT yours, or anyone else's business to get involved! Also not only does it come as a shock to me that you have this jumped up busybody attitude, you are furthermore involving yourself in the affairs of NON Muslims as well! That really takes the cake, Goss.
She hasn't really raised an offspring, she has murdered one.
children are born on fitrah and are so classified until someone actively turns them into something else. your attitude toward humanity and lack of regard to the law and human life, leave very little to be desired.. I really do hope you are a Muslim impersonator as you are a poor excuse for a Muslim!

There is an old maxim that states "A man's house is his castle", and I place a maximal and imperative importance on this and PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS. I shall raise my OWN offspring 100% AS I SEE FIT! And any busybody selfrighteous socialist who thinks they have the right to get involved in my affairs automatically become my sworn ENEMY and my sights will be honed in on them. I don't care if the busybody culprit who selfrighteously barges into my house even calls themself a "Muslim". Once an outsider (no matter WHO they are) interferes in my PRIVATE affairs and crosses onto my private property against my consent is when they have rendered themselves none other than a busybody socialist TRESPASSER, as far as I'm concerned. Any such person(s) would class as my sworn enemy and I will fight and resist them with everything it takes. All matters between myself and my offspring are 100% up to Allah's judgment, NOT a bunch of busybody selfrighteous interfering vigilante lefties. Any misdeeds (or perceived misdeeds) that I ever commit against my OWN offspring are strictly between ME and ALLAH alone. It will never ever be any or your or anyone else's business whatsoever. You have NO natural right to make any judgment on that woman because you have NOTHING to do with her. That shall only be of Allah's rightful will to judge her how HE sees. Please don't get me wrong, Gossamer, and please don't take me as cold and callous. No doubt about it, such things are sad, but the only natural right we have is to feel pity and sadness alone. However, the moment we become involved in affairs that are simply not ours to begin with is when we have crossed the line and are trespassing onto someone's private property and into their private affairs. And I will stand strong against that kind of behaviour and will fight against it at all cost.
Should I understand from your tirade, that:

1- you are in support of people murdering their children in the privacy of their 'castles?'
2- you'd stand idly to abuse because it isn't your business, and not your place to 'judge' especially the heathens, even though is it un-islamic to see injustice and not change it in one of several ways in which the lowest is with the heart and is the weakest form?
3- you are in opposition to impose the law God has set for us on Earth?


try to strip your diatribe down from the emotional hyperbole... people who identify with criminals perhaps have a few skeletons in their closet?

all the best 'Karl'
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جوري
12-16-2009, 05:11 AM
[QUOTE=Karl;1259810]


That may be so. However it only really means anything from an individualistic parent point of view, not a collectivist point of view. Your children might be YOUR future, but they certainly are not MY future. And vice versa-- my offspring are only MY future, they are NOT your or anyone else's future. I know I might be stating the obvious here, but I just wanted to make sure you understand that little point because your parlance has a definitely familiar leftist/communist edge to it.
You don't live in an insular world, and certainly they are the future whether you like it or not.. someone's kid could potentially be determining your Gleason score tomorrow or operating on your prostate the next, maybe even wiping your drool once you are placed on olanzpine, try to move away from your telescope and focus on an entire picture, and take your leftist rightest propaganda BS where it may receive applause.. I doubt sectarian nonsense will sit well on an Islamic forum!



Gossamer said: "I can't understand how this woman wants to be free and a part of society after what she has done.."

Did you ask her if she even wanted to be part of someone's "society" to begin with? How do you know that she wanted to have anything to do with anyone's "society"??
That is what it means to plead not guilty when all evidence points to you alone, and when you hide your daughter's death and not report her missing for more than a month while roaming free.. have you been following this case at all?

all the best 'Karl the rightest'
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Maryan0
12-16-2009, 07:31 AM
This is a very sad case. However i've heard from an islamic perspective that only Allah can judge the parents who harm or kill their children and that they can't be judged in a worldly court, but i'm not sure.
salam
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جوري
12-16-2009, 07:35 AM
:sl:

can I please have the hadith for that?

:wa:
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Maryan0
12-16-2009, 07:43 AM
I don't have a hadith, ayah or opinion from a scholar for it. I've "heard" about it however I'm not sure. Maybe somebody knowledgeable in this regard can clarify?
salam
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Maryan0
12-16-2009, 07:52 AM
retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." However, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." (Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).
I found this on google i'm not sure of it's validity though it's apparently from a book on the Shafi'i school of thought.
salam
Reply

جوري
12-16-2009, 07:58 AM
I found that hadith on jihadwatch alleging that it is how Muslims justify honor killings!
Reply

جوري
12-16-2009, 08:01 AM
I have found this a reply to the hadith you have posted:

"The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to be a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside."

- Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4457.
Reply

Maryan0
12-16-2009, 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I found that hadith on jihadwatch alleging that it is how Muslims justify honor killings!
yah that was the second link that came up on google lol...
honestly i'm not sure i'm not saying it's true it's just of something i've heard alot and that I wanted clarified.
salam
Reply

جوري
12-16-2009, 08:03 AM
I have found a hadith above to refute it-- on this website:

http://www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/print/3240/

:wa:
Reply

Maryan0
12-16-2009, 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have found this a reply to the hadith you have posted:

"The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to be a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside."

- Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4457.
jazakhallahu khairan i've heard of this too and that story of Prophet Musa and the lessons he learned from khadr.
salam
Reply

Maryan0
12-16-2009, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have found a hadith above to refute it-- on this website:

http://www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/print/3240/

:wa:
Thanks again
salam
Reply

جوري
12-16-2009, 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by Lisa0
jazakhallahu khairan i've heard of this too and that story of Prophet Musa and the lessons he learned from khadr.
salam
In the link it states that if the intent is murder then:

A father “is not executed because of the respect for fatherhood.” The commentary adds a caveat, however: “If circumstances indicate the [father] actually intended to kill [the son], then [the father] is killed for him in the well-known position.”



Islam goes with fitrah not against it.. I am certainly glad this is clarified!

:wa:
Reply

Karl
12-16-2009, 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
How should a Muslim react in your mind?

With a sense of courteous humility and not snooping into someone else's private affairs. Keeping off one's high horse, and understanding the blatantly obvious difference between private and public affairs, and that they are NOT to be treated the same way.




Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
1- I haven't set out to kill her (I was expressing an opinion) with hopes that justice will be served.

You might not have set out to kill her yourself, but you are still HOPING for kafir interference into her private affairs. That makes you look like their ally to me.


Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
2- She is being charged with first degree murder with highest penalty sought, thus whether in my mind I think her guilty or not is inconsequential (again, my thoughts are of a young life snuffed in a vile manner) and the records are made public.. in other words it is no longer a private affair!

You have tried to twist things about. Yes it has been forced into a public matter, from something that at its roots is rightfully a DOMESTIC matter. One could expose things about your private life that are not inherently a public matter (like what kind of perfume you use), but just because it can be TURNED in to a public matter doesn't mean to say that it IS a public matter in its essence.



Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
3- We are given shari3a to impose justice on earth.. and the crime for voluntary man-slaughter is death!

That is different. That is when one commits murder or theft etc against an outsider. It has nothing to do with and shouldn't be imposed on private property of which offspring are part and parcel of that (they are parental chattels, so "murder" charges are simply invalid and can never rightfully apply here). Fair enough too that some kind of basic law would be needed against killing outsiders, otherwise we could be all out there on the streets slaughtering each other left, right and centre, and this could become completely out of control. So yes, it only seems understandable that there does need to be some kind of "law" if public peace is to be kept. BUT when this law is enforced BEYOND that extent and overrides independant parental prerogative it then becomes a patent violation of private property rights.

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
you can't be a leftist and support the death penalty by the way.. what a dynamo of a hyperbole you are!

Err, look at China, still very communist and they have about the highest number of executions in the world. And lets not mention Stalin and co. Lefties are about the worst when it comes to busybodying, interferences and violations against private property rights, capital punishment and genocide. They hold the worst track record for these types of things.


Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
She hasn't really raised an offspring, she has murdered one.

Ok then if you prefer it to be put that way: She killed one as she saw fit. A baby of her creation, she hasn't even a husband, therefore her choice by default to do what she wants. Remember the only loss is hers. Her line will be extinguished.

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
1- you are in support of people murdering their children in the privacy of their castles?

It doesn't have to be only in the privacy of their own castles to be legitimate. Seeing their offspring are their chattels it is irrelevant whether what happens is on public domain or private property.


Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
2- you'd stand idly to abuse because it isn't your business, and not your place to 'judge'

Correct, I am too humble to play Allah. I am not Allah. If he really needs "justice" he'll do it by striking her down with lightning or making her drown in the sea. I'm sure he'd prefer just to do it that way rather then choosing a bunch of busybody socialists to have to do it for him.



Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Even though is it un-islamic to see injustice and not change it in one of three ways in which the lowest is with the heart and is the weakest form?

Depends how you define "justice". Two "wrongs" don't make a right. if someone kills his offspring, and you cross into his private property and bust down his door wanting "justice" (for something you have no actual right of demanding in the first place, by the way), this is trespassing on PRIVATE PROPERTY. As I said before, two wrongs don't make a right. I define "justice" as something only in the realm of interpublic relations, but not relevant and applicable when it comes to matters to do with one's own flesh and blood offspring. People have the right to regard their own offspring by whatever way they wish, but as far as I'M concerned, my offspring are my chattels, and therefore not rightfully bound within ordinary public law.

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
3- you are in opposition to impose the law God has set for us on Earth?

No. I think I have now explained everything in my above statements. As I said, when it comes to offspring, that changes everything completely. That might not be the position you hold, but it is nonetheless MY position on it, and will forever remain that way.

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
.. people who identify with criminals perhaps have a few skeletons in their closet?

No, I have nothing to hide. But I have a hardwired thing in me called PRIDE and I will never allow anyone to poke their nose into any of my private affairs (which includes how I raise my own flesh and blood). I would never DREAM of killing them because I love them very much, but I am nonetheless stating to you my uncompromising principle here, which I think you understand, even if I know you will no doubt loathe me for it.





Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You don't live in an insular world

Wrong. I DO live in an insular world, I have MADE my own insular world because I decided long ago to isolate myself and my family away from the high horse self-righteous authority of the masses. In the isolated world we have made for ourselves we live only with Allah, and only he alone will judge us. Nothing else, no one else, only Allah. My offspring regard me and me alone as their complete and only authority under Allah.

Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
try to move away from your telescope and focus on an entire picture

Oh I SEE the "big picture", but just refuse to be a part of it and play by its rules. I will NEVER allow it authority of me. I submit to Allah alone and nothing else.


Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
all the best 'Karl'
All the best to you too, Gos..
Reply

Karl
12-16-2009, 08:57 AM
Furthermore!, there is one VERY important thing I need to point out here...

In the quran it states that "blood money" can be paid as restitution to the family for a killing of their kin. If the blood money is accepted by the family, it then becomes automatically forbidden for that familiy who has accepted the blood money to kill the murderer. However if they DON'T accept the blood money they then have the right to kill the murderer themselves. Therefore, shift this to a situation involving a father killing his very own son, for instance. Seeing the father is already his direct family, there is simply no need for blood money! It would be simply ludicrous for a father to try and pay HIMSELF blood money. LOL
Reply

جوري
12-16-2009, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
With a sense of courteous humility
Then why do you seem to be lacking that feature?


and not snooping into someone else's private affairs. Keeping off one's high horse, and understanding the blatantly obvious difference between private and public affairs, and that they are NOT to be treated the same way.
These are public records.. snooping into someone's private affairs would denote spying on them, and such is obviously not the case!


You might not have set out to kill her yourself, but you are still HOPING for kafir interference into her private affairs. That makes you look like their ally to me.
Indeed I hope the highest degree of justice will be served. You don't get to dictate how people should feel to the loss of innocent life!




You have tried to twist things about. Yes it has been forced into a public matter, from something that at its roots is rightfully a DOMESTIC matter. One could expose things about your private life that are not inherently a public matter (like what kind of perfume you use), but just because it can be TURNED in to a public matter doesn't mean to say that it IS a public matter in its essence.
You are confabulating, go wipe your drool!






That is different. That is when one commits murder or theft etc against an outsider. It has nothing to do with and shouldn't be imposed on private property of which offspring are part and parcel of that (they are parental chattels, so "murder" charges are simply invalid and can never rightfully apply here). Fair enough too that some kind of basic law would be needed against killing outsiders, otherwise we could be all out there on the streets slaughtering each other left, right and centre, and this could become completely out of control. So yes, it only seems understandable that there does need to be some kind of "law" if public peace is to be kept. BUT when this law is enforced BEYOND that extent and overrides independant parental prerogative it then becomes a patent violation of private property rights.
More worthless drivel to both secular and Islamic law!




Err, look at China, still very communist and they have about the highest number of executions in the world. And lets not mention Stalin and co. Lefties are about the worst when it comes to busybodying, interferences and violations against private property rights, capital punishment and genocide. They hold the worst track record for these types of things.
This isn't about China, this is about Caylee's death, her mother drugged and suffocated her with tape and failed to report her missing for five weeks, I am starting to think that someone should commit you, you are just not normal!




Ok then if you prefer it to be put that way: She killed one as she saw fit. A baby of her creation, she hasn't even a husband, therefore her choice by default to do what she wants. Remember the only loss is hers. Her line will be extinguished.
it isn't a baby of her creation. reproduction doesn't equal creation!



It doesn't have to be only in the privacy of their own castles to be legitimate. Seeing their offspring are their chattels it is irrelevant whether what happens is on public domain or private property.
chattels seems like a jewish term.. in Islam Allah swt has bestowed dignity of human life, as such even a fetus in the womb of four months is prayed upon and has a funeral and treated like a full fledged human being!





Correct, I am too humble to play Allah. I am not Allah. If he really needs "justice" he'll do it by striking her down with lightning or making her drown in the sea. I'm sure he'd prefer just to do it that way rather then choosing a bunch of busybody socialists to have to do it for him.
Allah swt has given us the law to carry out justice, try purchasing a rudimentary book on jurisprudence and read it before you write!






Depends how you define "justice". Two "wrongs" don't make a right. if someone kills his offspring, and you cross into his private property and bust down his door wanting "justice" (for something you have no actual right of demanding in the first place, by the way), this is trespassing on PRIVATE PROPERTY. As I said before, two wrongs don't make a right. I define "justice" as something only in the realm of interpublic relations, but not relevant and applicable when it comes to matters to do with one's own flesh and blood offspring. People have the right to regard their own offspring by whatever way they wish, but as far as I'M concerned, my offspring are my chattels, and therefore not rightfully bound within ordinary public law.
See previous reply (you are starting to become redundant) righting a wrong is very much in concert with Islamic beliefs especially in pre-meditated murder.. no one here is interested in your personal opinion!




No. I think I have now explained everything in my above statements. As I said, when it comes to offspring, that changes everything completely. That might not be the position you hold, but it is nonetheless MY position on it, and will forever remain that way.
And as I stated, your opinion or position means nothing in the scheme of things. The courts will still go on to charge her with the highest crime possible and I'll pray that she received the highest penalty possible!



No, I have nothing to hide. But I have a hardwired thing in me called PRIDE and I will never allow anyone to poke their nose into any of my private affairs (which includes how I raise my own flesh and blood). I would never DREAM of killing them because I love them very much, but I am nonetheless stating to you my uncompromising principle here, which I think you understand, even if I know you will no doubt loathe me for it.
pride is a deadly sin, you should read up on basic Islamic principles before converting .. that is if you are indeed a Muslim!








Wrong. I DO live in an insular world, I have MADE my own insular world because I decided long ago to isolate myself and my family away from the high horse self-righteous authority of the masses. In the isolated world we have made for ourselves we live only with Allah, and only he alone will judge us. Nothing else, no one else, only Allah. My offspring regard me and me alone as their complete and only authority under Allah.
Ok then you get yourself a unabomber hut and live by your own manifesto away from the rest of us, preferably give up your keyboard as well!




Oh I SEE the "big picture", but just refuse to be a part of it and play by its rules. I will NEVER allow it authority of me. I submit to Allah alone and nothing else.
I am glad, then stop bugging the crap out of the rest of us with your demented ideology!



All the best to you too, Gos..
Insha'Allah
Reply

جوري
12-16-2009, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
Furthermore!, there is one VERY important thing I need to point out here...

In the quran it states that "blood money" can be paid as restitution to the family for a killing of their kin. If the blood money is accepted by the family, it then becomes automatically forbidden for that familiy who has accepted the blood money to kill the murderer. However if they DON'T accept the blood money they then have the right to kill the murderer themselves. Therefore, shift this to a situation involving a father killing his very own son, for instance. Seeing the father is already his direct family, there is simply no need for blood money! It would be simply ludicrous for a father to try and pay HIMSELF blood money. LOL

you should familiarize yourself the differences between pre-meditated murder and involuntary man-slaughter before LOLing like a --------

Go take your own advise and live in an insular world away from my thread. I'll not have it closed because of you!


all the best
Reply

Argamemnon
12-16-2009, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I found that hadith on jihadwatch alleging that it is how Muslims justify honor killings!
Salam,

I have stopped reading sites such as jihadwatch and other anti-Islam sites long ago, I can't tolerate it anymore and always avoid them. I prefer Infidel Kafir Watch: http://infidelkafirwatch.wordpress.com/

And Zionist Crusade Watch: http://zionist-crusade-watch.blogspot.com/
Reply

جوري
12-16-2009, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Salam,

I have stopped reading such as jihadwatch and other anti-Islam sites long ago, I can't tolerate it anmore and always avoid them. I prefer Infidel and Kafir Watch: http://infidelkafirwatch.wordpress.com/

And Zionist Crusade Watch: http://zionist-crusade-watch.blogspot.com/

sob7an Allah.. I don't understand the mentality of the people who in their own way support these sites by advocating female infanticide or even male infanticide since these children are properties to their parents, or Basta*d children who need to be dead anyway. When Islam clearly stands on the matter that one should seek to change injustice even through hating it in ones heart as the weakest form of iman, and that no child shall bear the sin of their parents. I truly have my doubts that one of the folks in here is in fact Spencer under false pretenses.. it wouldn't be the first time we had a Muslim impersonator on board!

:wa:
Reply

Donia
12-18-2009, 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
Ok then if you prefer it to be put that way: She killed one as she saw fit. A baby of her creation, she hasn't even a husband, therefore her choice by default to do what she wants. Remember the only loss is hers. Her line will be extinguished.
I know this debate is between you two but this statement actually struck a nerve with me.
That baby is the creation of Allah. SubhanAllah. Only Allah gives life and she was a gift enTRUSTed to her parents. It is not for me to judge this woman as a person. That is only for Allah as only Allah knows truly what is in our hearts. Her actions were horrible though. People judge other people's actions all the time. It is almost necessary to do so. I'm getting off topic though. I just find the fact that you said she killed this baby as she saw fit.... just wow. Who is she to decide if that innocent baby lives or dies? Just because the father figure is not around.... well that's just silly. That would give all single parents the right to end their childrens lives? I don't even understand the logic in that. The loss is not only hers. The baby's grandparents seemed very upset also.
I mean no disrespect.. but we have to respect life.
Salaamu Alaikum.
Reply

Karl
12-19-2009, 05:30 AM
Originally Posted by Donia
I know this debate is between you two but this statement actually struck a nerve with me.
That baby is the creation of Allah. SubhanAllah. Only Allah gives life and she was a gift enTRUSTed to her parents. It is not for me to judge this woman as a person. That is only for Allah as only Allah knows truly what is in our hearts.
Correct, therefore it is only Allah's business. Only Allah has the right to judge her. Getting involved in someone else's PRIVATE business is nothing but COMMIE behaviour, as far as I'm concerned. Leave what people do in their own private affairs up to Allah alone. He will deal with it. It is not up to you to initiate force or make judgment. Your job is not to become involved in other's PRIVATE affairs, but instead you should do your best in trying to become the best mother you possibly can. That is what Allah will reward you for. :)



Originally Posted by Donia
Her actions were horrible though. People judge other people's actions all the time. It is almost necessary to do so.
Wrong. It is NOT necessary to judge another's actions WHEN those actions are inherently of their own business to begin with! If I ever saw my neighbour kill his offspring, I would not get selfrighteously involved because it is NOT my business. They are HIS offspring, NOT mine. I would say to myself "Well Allah will probably judge him one day".


Originally Posted by Donia
I'm getting off topic though. I just find the fact that you said she killed this baby as she saw fit.... just wow. Who is she to decide if that innocent baby lives or dies?
Simple, she IS the PARENT, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by Donia
Just because the father figure is not around.... well that's just silly.
No it's not. she is the only other parent left, therefore everything is in her hands.



Originally Posted by Donia
That would give all single parents the right to end their childrens lives? I don't even understand the logic in that.
It makes perfect logic to me. She is of her own flesh and blood. She is the only one on this earth who has the right to do with her offspring as she sees fit. The rest is up to Allah and if he will judge her. It is not up to "societies" to stick their filthy snotty noses into her private affairs.


Originally Posted by Donia
The loss is not only hers. The baby's grandparents seemed very upset also.
The parents are the direct life givers, not the grandparents.

Originally Posted by Donia
I mean no disrespect.. but we have to respect life.
Salaamu Alaikum.
Fair enough, we need to respect life, but getting involved in someone else's PRIVATE business is nothing but COMMIE behaviour, as far as I'm concerned. I am sure that any parents who do not respect life will be judged by Allah.
Reply

abu_musab461
12-19-2009, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by Adib Shaikh
look at her, she looks like a doll, there are several such stories all over the world. they are not humans anymore they are actually shaytaan in human form
Very... very... true!
Reply

Danah
12-20-2009, 01:29 PM
:ooh:
What kind of hearts this mom has????
this is in case she has a heart!!
Reply

abu_musab461
12-20-2009, 09:44 PM
I think the society we live in corrupt the natural disposition of women so they lose thier femanine side, shyness, sense of responsibilty to the ummah, honour, dignity and motherhood.
Reply

dovelove
12-22-2009, 04:33 PM
:argue:

phew, that was gettin over miow, glad u seem to hav put ur claws away :heated:
Reply

laggitress
12-22-2009, 04:49 PM
Subhanallah...
what has the world become ?
this is just sick.
Reply

xboxisdead
07-18-2018, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by abu_musab461
I think the society we live in corrupt the natural disposition of women so they lose thier femanine side, shyness, sense of responsibilty to the ummah, honour, dignity and motherhood.
That is not the man's fault. That is 100% the woman's fault. Her heart is attached to the dunaya and she wants to proof she can be superior to her man and do everything a man do and better. When you start mimicking something you start becoming that something you mimic (even if done better) and physically and mentally you starting changing to that something. By competing against men you will lose your femininity, you will lose your sense of responsibility, your honor and dignity and you will destroy society with it. Prophet (peace be upon him) could have easily glorified masculine women and cursed feminine men..but he didn't he cursed both masculine women and feminine men. Prophet peace be upon him is putting boundaries so the gender role do not get meshed and destroyed and women don't lose her shame and honor and men don't end up screwed up either.

@Directed to the previous posters and not to abu_musab461
As for the mother who killed her daughter, I wonder if people would have posted that same thing had that child being a boy? Many would be happy to see less kafir men around. Let me tell you something. I would be happy to see less kafir women around too. How do you know that child wouldn't end up being kafir like her mother and die a kafir? They are non-Muslim. Maybe you need to focus on the Muslim children who are suffering? What about all these Muslim boys who are in the street who need help? Who need educational support. Means to change their educational style and help them back from the street to avoid being raped, killed or end up criminals themselves. Maybe you should put the tears to the proper place. Cry for the Muslim children boys and girls alike. I don't know. But what would I know?

By the way? This is why boys who are failing at school should be taking seriously. Like seriously. Because when you have single mothers....only women in power in raising their children and one they are the head of the house hold that story not only will become the norm, but will increase.



Here is a story of single mothers who only have daughters. Watch and observe.
Reply

Zzz_
07-18-2018, 11:42 PM
xboxisdead

video
Reply

xboxisdead
07-18-2018, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Zzz_
You know...I agree with that 100% ;D ;D ;D !!! Prophet peace be upon him cried so much that his chest sounded like a boiling pot!! Hehe! We have hard stone heart...sadly! If i am going to cry is how we men have now heartless heart! By the way...in my previous post...I still said the truth and hold value. You posting here only shows that you make mockery of what make us human and what prophet peace be upon him did a lot. I have a question to ask you...when was the last time you cried?
Reply

Zzz_
07-19-2018, 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
I have a question to ask you...when was the last time you cried?
i get teary eye watching some of those online videos lol

like this one almost had me!

https://nypost.com/2018/07/17/studen...fts-him-a-car/

Page Six Daily
Bellhops CEO Luke Marklin drove from Tennessee to Alabama on Monday and presented his dedicated new employee, Walter Carr, with his personal 2014 Ford Escape after seeing a heartfelt social media post from Carr&#039;s first moving client....
Reply

xboxisdead
07-19-2018, 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Zzz_
i get teary eye watching some of those online videos lol

like this one almost had me!

https://nypost.com/2018/07/17/studen...fts-him-a-car/

Page Six Daily
Bellhops CEO Luke Marklin drove from Tennessee to Alabama on Monday and presented his dedicated new employee, Walter Carr, with his personal 2014 Ford Escape after seeing a heartfelt social media post from Carr's first moving client....
That actually made me cry :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry: I wish more brothers unite with each other instead of against each other and work to helping each other succeed in this world and afterlife. BELIEVE YOU ME this is actually part of Islam to help your brother for the sake of Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa). :cry::cry::cry: imsadimsad I want brothers when walking in the street in addition to saying salaam..run to his arm and give him a brother hug instead of hand shaken. Maan that one act makes an enormous different and THAT PISSES OF THE SHAYATAAAN ahahahaha!! ;D ;D ;D
Reply

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