Can someone explain this chapter to me?

[Esther462]

My mum and I were talking the other day about the phosery of Jesus (pbuh) in the old testerment of the bible. She read Isaiah 53 to me to explain her point that God did send Jesus (pbuh) to die on the cross. Here is the chapter for the muslims.
Isaiah 53 (New International Version)

Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Can people explain this to me from a Christain and Muslim point of view.

[Supreme]

From a Christian point of view, I can confirm the figure mentioned in these passages is indeed Jesus. Considering this book was written hundreds of years prior to Jesus' ministry, I am hardly surprised such a passage is being used by your mother to support her arguments. This is further supported by a story in the Book of Acts:

26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[d]eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
"He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth."[e]

34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

(Acts 8:26-40)

Hope this helps.

[Rabi Mansur]

:sl:

I know that the Jews view this Suffering Servant chapter to refer to the nation of Israel, not to Jesus. For example it states:


"he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand."

Since Jesus didn't have any offspring nor were his days prolonged they argue that it doesn't fit Jesus and that it was always a reference to the nation of Israel.

The Jewish commentators have argued that this chapter is a prophecy of the nation of Israel, their suffering, scattering etc.

How does Islam view this chapter?

:wa:

[mkh4JC]

:sl:

I know that the Jews view this Suffering Servant chapter to refer to the nation of Israel, not to Jesus. For example it states:


"he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand."

Since Jesus didn't have any offspring nor were his days prolonged they argue that it doesn't fit Jesus and that it was always a reference to the nation of Israel.

The Jewish commentators have argued that this chapter is a prophecy of the nation of Israel, their suffering, scattering etc.

How does Islam view this chapter?

:wa:

Well, most Jews probably would view it this way, but that is because God has placed a veil over the eyes of most Jews, until the fulness of time, or the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. The Messianic Jews don't see it this way, and they are in fact the only Jews who really understand the Torah or Old Testament. The apostle Paul explains as such in Romans Chapter 11.

And Jesus does in a way have offspring, all who place their faith in Jesus Christ and thus become Christians are sons and daughters of the most high God.

Romans 11

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.



Here's a good explanation of Romans chapter 11 by an evangelical Chrisitian by the name of John Piper:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMMP98YeCiI

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[KittenLover]

God doesn't require a blood sacrifice to forgive.

why don't you ask her, why does God need to sacrifice is only son in order to forgive?? come on does that make sense?? your an all powerfull god and you say " I have to sacrifice my only son so that I can forgive" does that sound like a god to you?

a god is all powerfull he doesn't need anything, and say to her will hitler go to heaven cos he died as a christian and accepted christ??

what's the point of being good in this life then?? you jus accept christ and do whatever you want cos your going to heaven like Hitler who accepted christ does that mean he's in heaven?

an try to show her the contradictions in the bible and show her that it's not really a reliable source.

some questions maybe

why did jesus deny his divinity in the bible, john 10 34-36?

did jesus preach the original sin doctrine?

How can you believe a god would die?

did jesus say I am god worship me?

did jesus say we are three gods in one? 1+1+1=?

How can God have a god that he worships?

did jesus preach original sin doctrine?

how can you believe god would die?

did jesus say I am god worship me?

how can you believe a god can be born like a helpless baby?

show her the bibe hasn't been preserved when she realises the bible isn't a reliable source she'll begin to doubt it.

ask her it don't make sense, before Jesus god was sending messengers to mankind like Moses, why did he change all of a sudden and decide to send a son for??

what happened to all those people before Jesus?? do they go to Hell because they never accepted Jesus??

what was 1 of the 10 commandments? worship God alone, why would god contradict his own commandment later on and tell people to worship his son?

[KittenLover]

Isaiah 42 describes Muhammad

1- Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Until "...delighted"

If we consider "mine elect" as a noun then Mine elect = God's elect = Mustafa (in Arabic) the name of our Prophet Muhammad Mustafa (SAV). Otherwise it is true for all prophets of God.

After "..delighted..."

All prophets after Jacob (pbuh) mentioned in the Bible came for Israelites not Gentiles. This includes Jesus (pbuh) (look Matthew 15:21-26, Matthew 10:5-6 and many more). And Jesus (pbuh) did not stay on earth long enough to do that. But Muhammad (pbuh) was a Gentile and he brought message and judgment to Gentiles first.

2- He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heart in the street.

Here the word "not cry" is used as "not complain about the duty that I gave him" because we see in verse 13 God says "... he shall cry". There is a difference between these two using of the word cry. Now if we read your Bible Matthew 26:39-42, we can not say that Jesus (pbuh) never complained.

But if you read the life of Muhammad (pbuh) , the history of Islam you cannot find even one complaining word of Muhammad (pbuh) about the mission (duty) that given by God Almighty.

3- A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

This is true almost all prophets.

4- He shall not fall nor be discouraged, till he had set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Until "earth:"

Jesus (pbuh) couldn't finish his mission which had continued only for ~3 years. He fall and discouraged (you will find many places in NT about this) and he couldn't set judgment in the earth, because his followers were a few and they had little faith (you will find many places in NT about this). And yet they "forsook him and fled" at the time that Roman soldiers came to arrest Jesus (pbuh). And Jesus (pbuh) himself says "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence " John 18:36

But Muhammad established a state and ruled with his law that given by God. Therefore he set judgment in the earth and he did not fall and he was not discouraged.

After "earth:"

Here God says "his law", and in verse 9 says "former things come to pass". This means that he (new prophet) will bring new law. But if we read the Bible again, we see that Jesus (pbuh) says Matthew 5:17 "Think not I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but fulfill". And if we read further we understand that Jesus (pbuh) did not come with new law.

But Muhammad (pbuh) came with new law.

5- Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which come out of it ; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein;

6- I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.

Muhammad (pbuh) is a descendent of Abraham (pbuh) and came to Gentiles.

7- To open blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

"To open blind eyes". If we read verse 19 we will see more clearly that the word blind is used as idiom.

Meaning, he will show people the things that they did not know and will show people how to comprehend God and His message.

Prison is used as an idiom too. If a spirit doesn't know God and doesn't obey Him, then that spirit is in prison of Satan, and that person is prisoner of Satan. By accepting oneness of God and by obeying Him, the spirit of a person will be free and this makes that person free from prison of Satan. And in verse 8 God clearly states what He meant.

8- I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

(With explanation of verse 7) we understand that the person that God is talking about will come to a place that people worship idols as their gods. If we read verse 17, we may understand this better.

From verses 7 and 8, we understand that God is not talking about Jesus (pbuh) but Muhammad (pbuh). Because Jesus (pbuh) came to Israelites and they were not worshipping idols. But Muhammad (pbuh) came during the Jahilliya (ignorance) period of Arabs and destroy the idols. If we read verse 17, it will be understood more clearly.

9- Behold, the former things come to pass, the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

As we read in verse 4 and my explanation of it, the person, God is talking about, will come new law. And this person cannot be Jesus (pbuh) because of the reasons stated above. This person is nobody but prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

10- Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles and inhabitants thereof.

If you want to hear this new song please listen to someone reciting the Qur'an. The new song that God talking about is Noble Qur'an. If you hear how people recite the Noble Qur'an, you will understand what God is talking about.

11- Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

12- Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare his praise in the islands.

Kedar is son of Ishmael (pbuh) (Genesis 25:13-16), and has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh). This verse (verse 11) is not talking about Jesus (pbuh) but Muhammad (pbuh). As you know Muhammad (pbuh) is descendent of Abraham (pbuh) through Ishmael (pbuh). And the cities that they inhabited are in Arabia namely Telma (Tema/Teman), Yathrib (Al-Madinah Al-Munawwarah), Paran (Makkah) etc. And if you observe the ritual of Muslims (especially during Hajj), you will see that cities (Makkah and Al-Madinah) lift up their voices** and people shout and glorify Allah from top of mountains, especially Mt. Arafat**. The rock is the rock that God sent to Adam from heaven, and it is located at the side of Kaba. As you know Muslim people make 7 tours around Kaba and kiss this rock while glorifying the Lord.

**in fact, you can see this in every Muslim country, when people are called to prayer, muezzins read the Adhan (calling to prayer) that sounds like a song. And even far from city you can hear this Adhan, it will look like that city lifted up its voice. Meaning of Adhan is

Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest

Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest

I'm witness that there is no god but Allah

I'm witness that there is no god but Allah

I'm witness that Muhammad is His messenger

Come to prayer, come to prayer

Come to salvation, come to salvation

Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest

There is no god but Allah.

13- The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

14- I have long time holding my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing women; I will destroy and devour at once.

Until Islam, God had never ordered any prophets to fight against unbelievers to destroy them. Believer were fighting only to defense themselves. But Allah ordered Muhammad (pbuh) to fight against unbelievers, and slay them if they don't accept Allah. And if you study the life of Muhammad (pbuh) you will see that he was the commander of the army and he fought with his sword and he lost one of his teeth during the war. And God destroyed unbelievers at once (with only during of one prophet).

15- I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.

Here God is talking about deserts of Arabia. In desert place, mountains and hills of sand are not steady, they diminish with winds and another one appears. And you can not find rivers but small water islands as described by God.

Also this verse has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh)

16- And I will bring blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked thins straight. These things I will do unto them, and not forsake them.

As God says above, He did not send to pagan Arabs until Muhammad (pbuh) as stated in verse 22. Until Muhammad (pbuh), Arabs were worshipping idols, killing baby girls, drinking alcohol, gambling etc. Allah a way (Islam, unity of God) that they did not know, made Qur'an and Muhammad (pbuh) guided (as light before) them, and made crooked things (mentioned above) straight.

This verse also has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh).

17- They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that they say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.

This is exactly what pagan Arabs did, when they heard the message that given to Muhammad (pbuh) by God. They offered money, authority and many things to our prophet and he did not accept any of them. They ashamed, because they thought that all other Arabs will mock them, and will not visit the Kaba (at that time they were using Kaba as place of the idols that all other Arab tribes were using) and this would be their economic end. And they turned graven images and they asked help from those images.

This verse also has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh).

18- Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

19- Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant?

20- Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

In this verses God talks to Christians and Jews.

In verse 18: Hear you (Christians and Jews) deaf, and look you (Christians and Jews) blind, you may see that above things are happening every day in Islamic world.

In verse 19: God says, "Who is blind or deaf? My messenger (Muhammad (pbuh) and his followers) or you?

In verse 20: You do see these things but you don't pay attention, you don't comprehend. You do hear the Qur'an and you know that Muslims sing new song and Muslim cities lift up their voices and they shout from top of mountains, they glorify Me, but you don't pay attention, you don't comprehend.

Indeed, Christians and Jews think that Muslims do not see the right path (blind). Even you wrote that "What Muslims do not understand...".

These verses also have nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh).

21- The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

In Qur'an many places Allah calls Prophet as "My friend" (friend is not exactly translation for Habeeb/Habib, because Habeeb is closer then friend but I couldn't find another word for this). And He magnified the law and people still follow his law. Jesus did not bring new law, and non of the Christians follows the law that he was following.

This verse also has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh)

22- But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.

In this verse God talks about corrupted society of pagan Arabs. And, indeed, He had not send any prophets to Arabs until Muhammad (pbuh). That's why "none saith, Restore". But up to Jesus (pbuh), many prophets had been send to Israelites.

This verse also has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh)

23- Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

Who will become Muslim?

Conclusion:

Isaiah 42 describes Prophet Muhammad.

[KittenLover]

ORIGINS OF THE BIBLE



Before it became a collection of books, it was a folk tradition that relied entirely upon human memory, originally the only means of passing on ideas. This tradition was sung.

"At an elementary stage, writes E. Jacob, every people sings; in Israel, as elsewhere, poetry preceded prose. Israel sang long and well; led by circumstances of his history to the heights of joy and the depths of despair, taking part with intense feeling in all that happened to it, for everything in their eyes had a sense, Israel gave its song a wide variety of expression". They sang for the most diverse reasons and E. Jacob mentions a number of them to which we find the accompanying songs in the Bible: eating songs, harvest songs, songs connected with work, like the famous Well Song (Numbers 21, 17), wedding songs, as in the Song of Songs, and mourning songs. In the Bible there are numerous songs of war and among these we find the Song of Deborah (Judges 5, 1-32) exalting Israel's victory desired and led by Yahweh Himself, (Numbers 10, 35); "And whenever the ark (of alliance) set out, Moses said, 'Arise, oh Yahweh, and let thy enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee nee before thee".

There are also the Maxims and Proverbs (Book of Proverbs, Proverbs and Maxims of the Historic Books), words of blessing and curse, and the laws decreed to man by the Prophets on reception of their Divine mandate.

E. Jacobs notes that these words were either passed down from family to family or channelled through the sanctuaries in the form of an account of the history of God's chosen people. History quickly turned into fable, as in the Fable of Jotham (Judges 9, 7-21), where "the trees went forth to anoint a king over them; and they asked in turn the olive tree, the fig tree, the vine and the bramble", which allows E. Jacob to note "animated by the need to tell a good story, the narration was not perturbed by subjects or times whose history was not well known", from which he concludes:

"It is probable that what the Old Testament narrates about Moses and the patriarchs only roughly corresponds to the succession of historic facts. The narrators however, even at the stage of oral transmission, were able to bring into play such grace and imagination to blend between them highly varied episodes, that when all is said and done, they were able to present as a history that was fairly credible to critical thinkers what happened at the beginning of humanity and the world".

There is good reason to believe that after the Jewish people settled in Canaan, at the end of the Thirteenth century B.C., writing was used to preserve and hand down the tradition. There was not however complete accuracy, even in what to men seems to demand the greatest durability, i.e. the laws. Among these, the laws which are supposed to have been written by God's own hand, the Ten Commandments, were transmitted in the Old Testament in two versions; Exodus (20,1-21) and Deuteronomy (5, 1-30). They are the same in spirit, but the variations are obvious. There is also a concern to keep a large written record of contracts, letters, lists of personalities (Judges, high city officials, genealogical tables), lists of offerings and plunder. In this way, archives were created which provided documentation for the later editing of definitive works resulting in the books we have today. Thus in each book there is a mixture of different literary genres: it can be left to the specialists to find the reasons for this odd assortment of documents.

The Old Testament is a disparate whole based upon an initially oral tradition. It is interesting therefore to compare the process by which it was constituted with what could happen in another period and another place at the time when a primitive literature was born.

Let us take, for example, the birth of French literature at the time of the Frankish Royalty. The same oral tradition presided over the preservation of important deeds: wars, often in the defense of Christianity, various sensational events, where heroes distinguished themselves, that were destined centuries later to inspire court poets, chroniclers and authors of various 'cycles'. In this way, from the Eleventh century A.D. onwards, these narrative poems, in which reality is mixed with legend, were to appear and constitute the first monument in epic poetry. The most famous of all is the Song of Roland (La Chanson de Roland) a biographical chant about a feat of arms in which Roland was the commander of Emperor Charlemagne's rearguard on its way home from an expedition in Spain. The sacrifice of Roland is not just an episode invented to meet the needs of the story. It took place on 15th August, 778. In actual fact it was an attack by Basques living in the mountains. This literary work is not just legend ; it has a historical basis, but no historian would take it literally.

This parallel between the birth of the Bible and a secular literature seems to correspond exactly with reality. It is in no way meant to relegate the whole Biblical text as we know it today to the store of mythological collections, as do so many of those who systematically negate the idea of God. It is perfectly possible to believe in the reality of the Creation, God's transmission to Moses of the Ten Commandments, Divine intercession in human affairs, e.g. at the time of Solomon. This does not stop us, at the same time, from considering that what has been conveyed to us is the gist of these facts, and that the detail in the description should be subjected to rigorous criticism, the reason for this being that the element of human participation in the transcription of originally oral traditions is so great.

[KittenLover]

A Prophet amongst People

Let us examine the testimony of the bible. The people in general believed him to be a prophet. The bible says:

After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world." John 6:14

On hearing his words, some of the people said, "Surely this man is the Prophet." John 7:40

When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, "Who is this" The crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee." Matthew 21:10 & 11

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the Prophets." Matthew 16:13 &14

Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, "Who do people say I am?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets." Mark 8:27 & 28

Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, "Who do the crowds say I am" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life." Luke 9:18 &19

The above versus of the bible not only establish beyond doubt that Jesus (peace be upon him) had claimed to be a prophet, but also that his claim had found wide circulation amongst the general public. People were overwhelmed by the miracles he performed. His teachings were and are true! They would have called him God if he had so desired. People have accepted men of a far lesser stature than Jesus (peace be upon him) as Gods.

[KittenLover]

Miracles convince People of Jesus’ Prophethood

Even those touched by the miracles, as well as their immediate family, called him a prophet:

Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him [Jesus]? It was your eyes he opened." The man replied, "He is a prophet." John 8:17

The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother. They were all filled with awe and praised God. "A great prophet has appeared among us," they said. Luke 7:15 &16

Those living in the year 30 A.D. were not confused. Jesus (peace be upon him) lived and preached amongst them. Some accepted his claim, others rejected it. Both groups knew and understood the claim and its consequences. The beneficiaries of the miracles, the blind men who began seeing again, and the young man who came back from the dead, would have gladly called him God. Yet, they called him a Prophet!

Even his adversaries (the Pharisees) knew what the message was:

[The Pharisees] replied, "Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee." John 7:52

The Pharisees, being well versed in the scriptures, knew that Jesus (peace be upon him) had claimed to be a prophet. In the above verse they were refuting Jesus’ claim (peace be upon him). Their books did not show a prophet coming from Galilee.

The Jewish king Herod, the political authority of that time, was perplexed:

Now Herod the tetrarch heard about all that was going on. And he was perplexed, because some were saying that John had been raised from the dead, others that Elijah had appeared, and still others that one of the prophets of long ago had come back to life. Luke 9:7 & 8

King Herod’s men (his secret agents) had informed him what people thought about Jesus (peace be upon him). Even after Jesus (peace be upon him) had gone, people did not begin calling him God and continued to believe that he was a prophet:

One of [the disiples], named Cleopas, asked [the stranger], "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?" “What things?" [the stranger] asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” [the disciples] replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people.” Luke 24:18 & 19

[KittenLover]

Jesus declares his prophethood

The following verses of the bible prove clearly that Jesus (peace be upon him) had declared his prophethood.

Now Jesus himself had pointed out that a prophet has no honor in his own country. John 4:44

And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a Prophet without honor." Matthew 13:57

Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a Prophet without honor." Mark 6:4

[Jesus said] “I tell you the truth," he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown.” Luke 4:24

[Jesus said] “In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day, for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!” Luke 13:33

[Jesus said] "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward.” Matthew 10:40 &41

[Jesus said] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you.” Matthew 23:37

Jesus (peace be upon him) was a great prophet, a true messenger, who conveyed the message of God in the best possible manner. He neither changed the message nor added anything to it. Nor did he accept any credit for the message. He gave all credit and praise to God Almighty.

Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from Him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.” John 7:16 & 17

[Jesus said] “He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” John 14:24

(When sending messengers to other places Jesus (peace be upon him) tells his apostles) Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” John 20:21

[Jesus said] “I tell you the truth no servant is greater than his master, nor a messenger greater than the One who sent him.” John 13:16

[mkh4JC]

hmm why don't you ask her, why does God need to sacrifice is only son in order to forgive?? come on does that make sense?? your an all powerfull god and you say " I have to sacrifice my only son so that I can forgive" does that sound like a god to you?

Because sin carries with it a price, and that price has to be paid. When you as a sinner commit sin after sin after sin you are storing up for yourself God's wrath and a debt. You either as a human being end up paying the debt yourself or you accept the payment that God has provided.

'For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6: 23.

God too is also an All Holy God. He will not tolerate sinners in his presence for this reason. Jesus Christ bore the entirety of humanity's sin debt, and is the bridge between sinful man and a Holy God.

It wouldn't and doesn't make sense, to someone who is still in their sins, and blind to the things of God. But to the saints, it makes all the sense in the world.

Jesus also said in the New Testament that the scriptures cannot be broken, meaning that they are true forever. God established blood sacrifice for the remission of sins in the Old Testament, which was a picture of what the Lord Jesus Christ would have to ultimately do in establishing the New Testament, or New Covenant. Here's what scripture says:

'For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chose the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.' I Corinthians 1: 18-29.

Let me also try to answer some of your other concerns.

a god is all powerfull he doesn't need anything, and say to her will hitler go to heaven cos he died as a christian and accepted christ??

what's the point of being good in this life then?? you jus accept christ and do whatever you want cos your going to heaven like Hitler who accepted christ does that mean he's in heaven?

Who told you Hitler went to heaven? Hitler was not a Christian, he did not accept Christ on his deathbed, he was an occultist. The belief that you can accept Christ and then begin to live any kind of lifestyle that you wish BECAUSE he paid your sin debt is faulty. First off, as a Christian, God can and often does disciplines his own. You just can't get away with sinning as a Christian. I should know, having been suffering for sins I committed way back in the Summer of 2002 when I first accepted Christ.

Consider this passage of scripture, Hebrews 12, starting with the sixth verse:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

The point is, you can't expect to get away with sinning as a Christian, rather you are chastened sore for it.

why did jesus deny his divinity in the bible, john 10 34-36?

He didn't. What he was referencing I believe were Judges in the Old Testament who were given authority.

did jesus preach the original sin doctrine?

Yes he did:

'I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.' St John 8: 24.

How can you believe a god would die?

Jesus willingly laid down his life, as per his command from the Father. No one took it from him.

'Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.' St John 10: 17-18.

did jesus say I am god worship me?

He said that he was one with God (ie the Father).

'My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I and my Father are one.' St John 10: 29-30.

did jesus say we are three gods in one? 1+1+1=?

He said this: 'Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:' Matthew 28: 19. It would be better to say: 1x1x1=1

how can you believe a god can be born like a helpless baby?

This is what is in scripture:

'Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.' Phillipians 2: 5-11.

So it was in God's plan to send Christ into the world to die for the sins of mankind since before the creation of the world.

[KittenLover]

Because sin carries with it a price, and that price has to be paid. When you as a sinner commit sin after sin after sin you are storing up for yourself God's wrath and a debt. You either as a human being end up paying the debt yourself or you accept the payment that God has provided.

so god is a debt collector? who can't forgive unless he sends a payment which is his son? so he punishes his son for my sins? that's kinda unjust if you ask me.

what other debt solutions does he offer?? can I just ask for forgiveness? why do I have to believe he let his son be murdered and humiliated on a cross?

also why did god all of a sudden send his son when all along he's been sending messengers, he sent moses, abraham, noah, and many more then all of a sudden he sends his son?

so he sends a long line of messengers then sends his son, then sends another messenger that don't make sense. I believe he sent jesus as a prophet just like he sent noah, moses, abraham.

also what happens to all those people who died before Jesus came, who is paying their debt??

is there a debt collecter scheme in place for them also?? and why did god violate his own 10 commandments it don't make sense to me?

and why does god need a debt collection in the form of a blood sacrifice, why can't he just say " I'm the all mighty god I forgive you if you ask me sincerly"

surely god is capable of forgiving without a debt collection, are you telling me that god doesn't forgive unless I pay the debt? he sounds awfully human to me, that's what my uncle says "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, if you don't do this for me I won't do this for you" lol.

is that what god is saying? in order for us to forgive him we need to believe he killed his son?

and once you accept christ you could still go to hell?

how come I have this debt of sin when that's the way god made me?

why does his son have to pay for my sins? isn't that unfair?

Jesus willingly laid down his life, as per his command from the Father. No one took it from him.

why did he ask god "why have you forsaken me" if he did it willingly I don't get it. if it was part of the plan he shouldn't be asking god why he's forsaken them.

[mkh4JC]

so god is a debt collector? who can't forgive unless he sends a payment which is his son? so he punishes his son for my sins? that's kinda unjust if you ask me.

The thing is, God is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Sin of any kind is a monstrous offense to God, who is All Holy. There is no darkness in God, so he cannot fellowship or have a relationship with those who are in darkness.

Through the cross, God's requirements of perfect justice and perfect mercy are met. The cross is perfect justice because man's sin is punished, and God then shows forth his mercy on those whom he saves, redeeming them from a life of bondage to sin.

what other debt solutions does he offer?? can I just ask for forgiveness? why do I have to believe he let his son be murdered and humiliated on a cross?

As I said in my previous post, Jesus is quoted in the New Testament (in fact he's quoted in the scripture that you referenced concerning John) saying that the scriptures cannot be broken, meaning they are true forever. In the Old Testament God introduced to the children of Israel and in fact to all of humankind the idea of blood sacrifice for the remission of sins. This is God's system, and this is what he requires for the remission of sins, a payment of some kind.

'For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.' Leviticus 17: 11.

Blood flow is seen as life. We all live by blood. Jesus shed his life on the cross so that we too might have life. When you accept him, he comes to live within you, granting you power over your lifestyle, and delivering you from all the things that you were bound with, so that you can begin to live a life of victory over sin. If you believe with all your heart that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died for your sins, and rose from the dead, then he will save you.

also why did god all of a sudden send his son when all along he's been sending messengers, he sent moses, abraham, noah, and many more then all of a sudden he sends his son?

The entire Old Testament points to Christ. Moses wrote of him. Abraham was promised by God that through his seed God would bless all of humanity, and he has, through the saving power of Jesus Christ. Isaiah, of whom this thread is based on, who was one of the major prophets, was shown by God how that the Messiah--that is, Jesus Christ--would have to suffer to bring sinful man back to a Holy God. So the Old Testament is a percursor to, or a foreshadowing of the New Testament.

so he sends a long line of messengers then sends his son, then sends another messenger that don't make sense. I believe he sent jesus as a prophet just like he sent noah, moses, abraham.

also what happens to all those people who died before Jesus came, who is paying their debt??

is there a debt collecter scheme in place for them also?? and why did god violate his own 10 commandments it don't make sense to me?

The Old Testament saints were awaiting the promise of the Messiah. God judged them based on their response to that. It is taught in the New Testament that when Jesus was crucified, he descended into the lower parts of the earth (the center of the earth) where paradise and also hell were located. Jesus then delivered those who were in the center of the earth who were the Lord's people out of the earth to be with God in the third heaven. The message being, we can't be in the presence of Holy God without Christ's redeeming work on the cross.

and once you accept christ you could still go to hell?

Some Christians believe that once saved always saved. Others believe that you could still lose your salvation. You can't though, once you accept Christ, just fall back into sin and carnality and expect to live without any reprecussions. God will take you out of here (ie he will end your life) if you refuse to be disciplined by him. I don't know if that means you lose your salvation or not, but I know for sure that he will take you out of this world.

why did he ask god "why have you forsaken me" if he did it willingly I don't get it. if it was part of the plan he shouldn't be asking god why he's forsaken them.

That was just an expression of Jesus' humanity. He was fully God, then he stepped out of eternity, entered into time, and added humanity to his divinity.

[Grace Seeker]

KittenLover, our sister Esther462 asked for an explanation of the chapter, not the rant you've sidetracked the thread down. I think it is possible to give an interpretation of Isaiah 53 without having to attack every Christian concept, after all, they are not all a part of the chapter in question. So, if we can stay focused on that chapter, I believe it will be more helpful to Esther, which is my goal here.


Esther -- short answer -- that passage is part of a section of Isaiah that is referred to by both Jews and Christians as focused on the Suffering Servant. At the time of Jesus, one common interpretation was that this suffering servant of Isaiah (chapters 49-53) is to be the Jewish Messiah. Of course there were probably other interpretations in circulation as well, but this is the interpretation that was picked up by the early church who identified the suffering that Jesus experienced with the man of suffering portrayed in Isaiah, especially as Jesus himself seemed to make a few allusions to it as well. Since that time, given the final events of Jesus' earthly life, Christians have quite naturally read back into the Isaiah 53 passage and seen it as a prophecy with respect to Jesus' crucifixion. Whether it is or not, I'll let you decide. I've just given the briefest of sketches here to provide some background on the chapter and will gladly provide more if you desire it, but didn't want to overwhelm you if you weren't interested in anything more than this.

[KittenLover]

so God is a debt collector who's collecting the debt of sin from us by killing his son right?

[Grace Seeker]

so God is a debt collector who's collecting the debt of sin from us by killing his son right?

Some Christians (not all) do hold to that interpretation as to why Jesus died, but that's not what Isaiah 53 is about.

[Rabi Mansur]

Some Christians (not all) do hold to that interpretation as to why Jesus died, but that's not what Isaiah 53 is about.

Are there any Muslims out there who want to address Isaiah 53? I'm curious as to how they interpret this chapter.

:wa:

[Salahudeen]

Are there any Muslims out there who want to address Isaiah 53? I'm curious as to how they interpret this chapter.

:wa:

I don't see the point in trying to interpret it since it's obivious the bible isn't divine and holy. For it to be holy it would have to be free of contradictions and errors.

[Rabi Mansur]

I don't see the point in trying to interpret it since it's obivious the bible isn't divine and holy. For it to be holy it would have to be free of contradictions and errors.

I think the original poster was hoping that someone would explain this chapter from an Islamic perspective.

Is the following consistent with how this chapter is viewed in Islam?

http://www.mosqueonline.com/saviour/...-isaiah-53.htm

:wa:

[Rabi'ya]

Are there any Muslims out there who want to address Isaiah 53? I'm curious as to how they interpret this chapter.

:wa:

:sl:

I am not sure that many(if any) people on this forum are well enough educated in different religious texts to say much about this. what ever anyone says would perhaps merely be specualtion.

As Muslims, we can only accept the parts of the Bible which are corroborated by the Quraan as this is the final word of God and is uncorrupted. There are parts of the Bible which have been changed through translation, and parts have been omitted throughout the years so we really are in no place to judge, unless we have studied this in depth.

[Supreme]

Oh gee, ignore my post, which even gave Biblical references. Not even Grace Seeker's posts gave Biblical references.

[Esther462]

I think the original poster was hoping that someone would explain this chapter from an Islamic perspective.

Is the following consistent with how this chapter is viewed in Islam?

http://www.mosqueonline.com/saviour/...-isaiah-53.htm

:wa:

That link is very helpful. Thank you.

[KittenLover]

^ sorry for taking your thread off topic earlier forgive me.

[جوري]

so God is a debt collector who's collecting the debt of sin from us by killing his son right?

By killing himself if you want to be in keeping with 'monotheism'

[Al-manar]

I think it is possible to give an interpretation of Isaiah 53 without having to attack every Christian concept, after all, they are not all a part of the chapter in question. So, if we can stay focused on that chapter.

That is wise Grace Seeker....

Two things reflect the lack of wisdom & knowledge in a person

1- To get into irrelevant details..

2- To delete others arguments which he not ready yet to refute....

The Jewish commentators have argued that this chapter is a prophecy of the nation of Israel, their suffering, scattering etc.

How does Islam view this chapter?.

:sl:

If you mean how muslims view this chapter,then they usually like the Jewish commentaries.....


How Islam should view this chapter?

After long time of reflection, it should be neither the christian nor the jewish way .....



1-
Isaiah 53 according to Islam can't be reference neither to Jesus nor to The Jews

we believe in God's justice as some Old Testament verses:

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bearthe iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20 "O ye house of Israel,I will judge you every one after his ways."

Jer. 31:29-30 "In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall ie for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."



So when Isaiah comes and write:


But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;
he punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.


there we say STOP !

God laids not the iniquity of the people on others.... neither Jesus nor the Jews.....


2-


The problem of exclusiveness:and that is the basic weakness of such passage, It is mere a description of things that been experienced by thouthands if not millions !

Isaiah, or at least the writer of the book that bears his name, employs the whole of this chapter, Iiii., in lamenting the sufferings of some deceased persons, of whom he speaks very pathetically. It is a monody on the death of a friend; but he mentions not the name of the person, nor gives any circumstance of him by which he can be personally known; and it is this silence, which is evidence of nothing, that Matthew has laid hold of, to put the name of Christ to it; as if the chiefs of the Jews, whose sorrows were then great, and the times they lived in big with danger, were never thinking about their own affairs, nor the fate of their own friends, but were continually running a Wild-Goose chase into futurity.

To make a monody into a prophecy is an absurdity. The characters and circumstances of men, even in the different ages of the world, are so much alike, that what is said of one may with propriety be said of many; but this fitness does not make the passage into a prophecy; and none but an impostor, or a bigot, would call it so.

Isaiah, in deploring the hard fate and loss of his friend, mentions nothing of him but what the human lot of man is subject to. All the cases he states of him, his persecutions, his imprisonment, his patience in suffering, and his perseverance in principle, are all within the line of nature; they belong exclusively to none, and may with justness be said of many. But if Jesus Christ was the person the church represents him to be, that which would exclusively apply to him must be something that could not apply to any other person; something beyond the line of nature, something beyond the lot of mortal man; and there are no such expressions in this chapter, nor any other chapter in the Old Testament.

It is no exclusive description to say of a person, as is said of the person Isaiah is lamenting in this chapter, He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a Lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before his shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. This may be said of thousands of persons, who have suffered oppressions and unjust death with patience, silence, and perfect resignation.

.

My advice to Muslims ,just don't follow blindly any Jewish commentary, their commentaries are helpful but not all the way ...


Regards

[Grace Seeker]

My advice to Muslims ,just don't follow blindly any Jewish commentary, their commentaries are helpful but not all the way ...


Regards

That's generally good advice with regard to most commentaries, there is good and bad alike to be found in most all of them (though some are so bad as to offer no help at all). Certainly Thomas Paine's commentaries on the Colonial scene were very helpful with regard to the American Revolution, but his writings with regard to Isaiah 53 seem to miss completely that it is a part of a large section of the book of Isaiah. His treatment of it in isolation from that larger context makes it very unhelpful in nature.

[Al-manar]

his writings with regard to Isaiah 53 seem to miss completely that it is a part of a large section of the book of Isaiah. His treatment of it in isolation from that larger context makes it very unhelpful in nature.

If you mean his treatment with isaiah 53 was out of context,then I think you should read again my quotation....

his comments has nothing to do with the context.... he plainly put it

The applecation of Isaiah as a prediction to Jesus or even anyone else,has The problem of exclusiveness.......

and that is the reasonable understanding which anyone(except the jews and christians who obliged to argue that the passage must have a meaning) Muslim,non Muslim should get.....


If you would like to know Paine's opinion in Isaiah's writing in general :


"Whoever will take the trouble of reading the book ascribed to Isaiah, will find it one of the most wild and disorderly compositions ever put together; it has neither beginning, middle, nor end; and, except for a short historical part, and a few sketches of history in the first two or three chapters, is one continued, incoherent, bombastical rant, full of extravagant metaphor, without application, and destitute of meaning; a school-boy would scarcely have been excusable for writing such stuff; it is...prose run mad." The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine, p. 129-130

"Isaiah is, upon the whole, a wild, disorderly writer, preserving in general no clear chain of perception in the arrangement of his ideas, and consequently producing no defined conclusions from them. It is the wildness of his style, the confusion of his ideas, and the ranting metaphors he employs, that have afforded so many opportunities to priestcraft in some cases, and to superstition in others, to impose those defects upon the world as prophecies of Jesus Christ. Finding no direct meaning in them, and not knowing what to make of them, and supposing at the same time they were intended to have a meaning, they supplied the defect by inventing a meaning of their own, and called it his ." The Life and Works of Paine, Vol. 9, p. 229-30


Regards

[Grace Seeker]

If you mean his treatment with isaiah 53 was out of context,then I think you should read again my quotation....

Indeed I did, and still do. Paine tries to interpret Isaiah 53 in isolation from Isaiah 49, 50, 51, and 52, all which provide context to the presentation of a suffering servant. This suffering servant of Isaiah is understood by different groups of people in a variety of different ways -- the future-coming Messiah, the nation of Israel personified, prophecies with regard to Jesus personally -- but Isaiah 53 is most certainly NOT, as Paine describes it, "a monody on the death of a friend."


I also disagree with Paine regarding what he perceives as a lack of structure to the book.