bible clearly says jesus was not crucified!!!

[cat eyes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OycAv...eature=related

[Supreme]

A Youtube video of an Islamic lecture, I'm converting straight away!

[Samiun]

A Youtube video of an Islamic lecture, I'm converting straight away!

I had a feeling you're joking

[cat eyes]

so after all the evidence what argument can u non muslim possibly bring that jesus was crucified???? what prove u have that a human is god??? u people dont even know your own scriptures even and he is a muslim and he knows every single verse he can quote no problem. your arguments that u bring on LI against us make no sense at all when u try and explain what the bible really means i just laugh at u pple are trying so hard lol

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[cat eyes]

A Youtube video of an Islamic lecture, I'm converting straight away!

islam is the second largest religion in your country united kingdom and more and more pple reverting every year who knows maybe the Queen will revert;D

[Supreme]

so after all the evidence what argument can u non muslim possibly bring that jesus was crucified???? what prove u have that a human is god??? u people dont even know your own scriptures even and he is a muslim and he knows every single verse he can quote no problem. your arguments that u bring on LI against us make no sense at all when u try and explain what the bible really means i just laugh at u pple are trying so hard lol

I don't want get into a discussion now, but let's just say it takes more than a biased YouTube video to discredit 2,000 of Church theology, history and apologetics.:statisfie

islam is the second largest religion in your country united kingdom and more and more pple reverting every year who knows maybe the Queen will revert

I doubt it, the current rules in place discriminate against a Catholic Head of State, what chance would a Muslim Head of State have?

I had a feeling you're joking

That was correct.


Cat eyes, tell me, is the purpose of this thread to promote dawah amongst the Christian community here (which is what comparitive religion is for) or to cast doubts out of the minds of fellow Muslims?

[cat eyes]

I don't want get into a discussion now, but let's just say it takes more than a biased YouTube video to discredit 2,000 of Church theology, history and apologetics.:statisfi

you don't want to get into the discussion cos you cannot answer me thats why :) and ive heard it all before :)

no i like doing dawah face to face because i like to see them taking the shahada when the evidence in put in front of them :)

[KittenLover]

I don't think us Muslim's are in doubt, I mean why would we be in doubt cos of a bible that contains contradictions and errors, so much so that they have to release new versions every time they've removed an error from it, how can something from God be edited by men, and how can a book of God contain errors and contradictions :S

God is perfect, it is men who make errors and contradictions in their attempt to distort the truth :)

[tango92]

its possible to disprove crucifixion just by thinking logically - can god die? can god be a man? no and no. if God came down on earth then there would be no doubt left in the matter, there would be no need for belief.

[MunirBinJulaihi]

I don't think us Muslim's are in doubt, I mean why would we be in doubt cos of a bible that contains contradictions and errors, so much so that they have to release new versions every time they've removed an error from it, how can something from God be edited by men, and how can a book of God contain errors and contradictions :S

God is perfect, it is men who make errors and contradictions in their attempt to distort the truth :)

I totally agree on that.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Aslamu alaaykum..
Jesus was cleearly not Crucified as told in the Bible from this Verse Also..

22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[b] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. (Acts)

Wa alaaykum Salaam

[Supreme]

you don't want to get into the discussion cos you cannot answer me thats why :) and ive heard it all before :)

Fair enough.

no i like doing dawah face to face because i like to see them taking the shahada when the evidence in put in front of them

So do I, which is why you'll never catch me creating a thread with a link to YouTube in a desperate bid to convert people of other faiths (or spreading the Good News/Word as other Christians would call it).

can god die?

This is a problem. If God cannot die, He is not omnipotent as He does not have the power to kill Himself. If God can die, then He is not immortal.

[Supreme]

Aslamu alaaykum..
Jesus was cleearly not Crucified as told in the Bible from this Verse Also..

22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[b] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. (Acts)

Wa alaaykum Salaam

How does this state Jesus was not crucified? It explains Him being nailed to a cross...

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

If Jesus Died on the Cross, then its reffered to "Crucification" if not then he wasnt. read it properly,
24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

And Jesus is Not God!!Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

[Salah al Qasim]

Very true sister, yet we have many of the christian people believing in this...
May Allah guide them all!

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Very true sister, yet we have many of the christian people believing in this...
May Allah guide them all!

Ameen Ameen Allahuma Ameen

[Supreme]

If Jesus Died on the Cross, then its reffered to "Crucification" if not then he wasnt. read it properly,
24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

And Jesus is Not God!!Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

I still don't get it (I'm tired and kinda in the middle of celebrating New Year's)- the passage you quoted explicitly stated He was nailed to a cross, which is crucifixion. You know crucifixion is being nailed to a cross right?

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

But he didnt die on the Cross!!! according to the verse

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

But he didnt die on the Cross!!! according to the verse

And the other part of the "Passage" shows that Jesus was a Man

[KittenLover]

the message of All the prophets was worship 1 god alone, he has no partners, God is one.

I find it so strange that people can believe Jesus as gods partner when all the messengers and prophets before him preached "The lord your god is one god thou shall not set up partners in worship to him"

why would God contradict himself later with Jesus it just don't make sense to me at all I'm afraid.

I don't believe God would have a son because having children is beneath him, I don't know how to explain it,

it's like a great king marrying an animal and impregnating that animal and saying that animal is his son lol. even though that's not possible lol.

but that's why I find it so hard to believe how can a great God have a son, like the rest of us, God is above us and better than us. He doesn't reproduce like we reproduce. He doesn't reproduce at all, he especially doesn't reproduce through the act of sex and impregnating :hmm: astagfirullah.

who is Jesus's grand father? was Mary married to god for her to have his son? :hmm:

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

the message of All the prophets was worship 1 god alone, he has no partners, God is one.

I find it so strange that people can believe Jesus as gods partner when all the messengers and prophets before him preached "The lord your god is one god thou shall not set up partners in worship to him"

why would God contradict himself later with Jesus it just don't make sense to me at all I'm afraid.

I don't believe God would have a son because having children is beneath him, I don't know how to explain it,

it's like a great king marrying an animal and impregnating that animal and saying that animal is his son lol. even though that's not possible lol.

but that's why I find it so hard to believe how can a great God have a son, like the rest of us, God is above us and better than us. He doesn't reproduce like we reproduce. He doesn't reproduce at all :hmm:

Yes agreed, totally sis :)

[Supreme]

The verse says:

put him to death by nailing him to the cross

Which implies very much so that He did die on a Cross. I still don't understand where the problem is.

[Samiun]

Let's get to the point here.

We Muslims believe that the Taurat,Bible and Al-Qur'an (I think I'm missing one holy book) was given to our selected beloved prophets (Peace be upon all of them). Jesus(pbuh) was never crucified, it looks like he was but he WASN'T. As far as I'm concern, Allah S.W.T. had change his soul with another soul so that he could live another day. Jesus(pbuh) never got resurrected or whatever non-sense. Oh and there's a claim that there were 2 jesus.

View more, I think it's a VERY long video and requires accurate date and time but if you feel that you need to get some info on Jesus(peace be upon him) on a Muslim respective I suggest you watch it.

Finally, I just want to say that I would like to be corrected if I'm wrong and I mean no harm to the Christians.



Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U4JWNEc

[mkh4JC]

its possible to disprove crucifixion just by thinking logically - can god die? can god be a man? no and no. if God came down on earth then there would be no doubt left in the matter, there would be no need for belief.

This is what is in scripture:

'Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.' Phillipians 2: 5-11.

Jesus voluntarily humbled himself and clothed himself with humanity (though he was still divine) and paid the penalty of humanity's sin debt. He's fully and truly God because he was always God from eternity to eternity with the Father, before anything was made. And he is fully and true man because he was born into this world and lived a sinless life, which is what God wanted from the beginning, even in the Garden of Eden.

the message of All the prophets was worship 1 god alone, he has no partners, God is one.

I find it so strange that people can believe Jesus as gods partner when all the messengers and prophets before him preached "The lord your god is one god thou shall not set up partners in worship to him"

why would God contradict himself later with Jesus it just don't make sense to me at all I'm afraid.

Well, consider this passage of scripture, in the Old Testament no less.

'The Lord said unto my Lord: Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Pslam 110: 1. Here's Jesus, in the Gospels, referencing this verse.

'Saying, what think ye of Christ, whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, til I make thine enemies thy footstool?

If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.' Matthew 22: 42-46.

I don't believe God would have a son because having children is beneath him, I don't know how to explain it,

it's like a great king marrying an animal and impregnating that animal and saying that animal is his son lol. even though that's not possible lol.

but that's why I find it so hard to believe how can a great God have a son, like the rest of us, God is above us and better than us. He doesn't reproduce like we reproduce. He doesn't reproduce at all, he especially doesn't reproduce through the act of sex and impregnating :hmm: astagfirullah.

who is Jesus's grand father? was Mary married to god for her to have his son? :hmm:

Jesus did not just come into existance when he was born of Mary. As I said, he has always existed with the Father in eternity past. And God doesn't reproduce. But the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have ALWAYS existed. Jesus though, stepped out of eternity and entered into time, and added humanity to his divinity, dying for the sins of the world.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

islam is the second largest religion in your country united kingdom and more and more pple reverting every year who knows maybe the Queen will revert;D

I guess , she will be killed if she wants to . Still it's a mystery how Princess Diana died.

[Samiun]

:sl:



I guess , she will be killed if she wants to . Still it's a mystery how Princess Diana died.

Wait what? Did you watch too much The Arrivals

[tango92]

@ fedos picking out verses from the bible does not constitute proof for a muslim. i was talking about thinking logically about it. see why did jesus have to "humble" himself before the father and not vice versa. i (and probably most people) can come up with a huge list of questions that contradict trinity and cannot be explained rationally.

what you are now going to do is tell me something like 'no no jesus was a purehearted being and it made no difference to him to be crucified'

which is basically just inventing some new characteristics and dynamics of jesus to rebut. if not that then coming back to 'god in his infinite wisdom decided'
stop deluding urself, your religion is incompatible with natural thought.

[glo]

Aslamu alaaykum..
Jesus was cleearly not Crucified as told in the Bible from this Verse Also..

22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[b] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. (Acts)

Wa alaaykum Salaam

Greetings

Like Supreme I am intrigued as to where you read from this Bible passage that Jesus did not die by crucifixion. :?
Twice it is stated very clearly that he was put to death.

He was raised from death, thereby overcoming death (a promised made also to all who follow him) ... but first he had to go through suffering death on the cross.

Salaam

[Supreme]

Cheers glo, I thought I must be going mad. I don't think the poster in question is a native English speaker, or else it would've become obvious to them.

[Danah]

If God can die even for few days then who will take care of the world?

If God die and the world is still running perfectly then it means that he never die, OR there is another God who is controlling the world while the first God is dead!

If the first God is resurrected from death then this means that there is something who made him alive again. In other words, there is another mighty being who is more powerful than the first God returned him to life!!

Can someone think seriously about this??

[KittenLover]

^ Christians don't believe in 1 god though, they're pagans I think cos they believe in 2 gods jesus and god.

Jesus did not just come into existance when he was born of Mary. As I said, he has always existed with the Father in eternity past. And God doesn't reproduce. But the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have ALWAYS existed. Jesus though, stepped out of eternity and entered into time, and added humanity to his divinity, dying for the sins of the world.

hmm so he's always existed with God, how did he become into being like who is his mother that conceived him and gave him as a son to God? If God doesn't reproduce then how can he have the relation of a son, isn't a son from the reproduction of a father? so how can he be a son of god if he wasn't reproduced by God :hmm: cos the relation isn't there.

so jesus gave up his divine powers and became like a lowly animal human that has human desires and needs food and sleep and has to use the bathroom?

and he did this why? :hmm: to pay for our sins? but I find that to be unjust why should someone else pay for my mistakes. It's like a murderer getting away scotch free cos some1 has paid for the crime of the murder and, that is unjust.

and is God that limited in his forgiveness that he can't forgive unless something is sacraficed for him? if that's the case Humans are more forgiving and mercifull than god cos we don't require a sacrafice to forgive our children. We don't require our children to shed blood so we can forgive them where as god does so I guess we're more forgiving than god.

and since jesus has paid for our debt with his blood, how come we can't do what ever we want now?? I mean Jesus has paid for our debt with his blood right so we don't have to worry about the debt of sin now cos it's been paid for with Jesus's blood right? .

also why would god create us as sinful and then expect us to pay for the debt of sin when he made us this why?

it's like me creating an alarm clock and asking it to pay for being noisy and waking me up in the morning, it's only doing what is in it's nature so how can I expect it to pay for it's debt when I made it that way?

there's no human being who is sin free so why would God expect us to pay for a design flaw that is his fault? the design flaw being sin that he doesn't accept.

it's like a company creating a product and something goes wrong with the product and then the company goes tough no refund.

is it the products fault that the company designed it with that flaw, or is it the creators fault?

obviously it's the creators fault cos the product can't help the way he is made so why should he be asked to pay for something he was created with? :hmm:

if God wanted sinless individuals in his kingdom why didn't he just create sinless individuals :hmm: instead of making them with faults and then asking them to pay for those faults.

I still don't understand why God contradicted himself when his message from the start of time was "there's 1 god worship me alone without any partners"

you quoted passages from the bible but they don't really make sense to me and I don't believe the bible to be the word of God as I mentioned earlier, the word of God is perfect and divine, therefore it doesn't need correcting by men to be made free from errors. However that isn't the case with the bible, errors are corrected then new versions are released, how can god make errors and contradictions in his revelation :hmm:

it's pointless quoting bible passages to me cos I don't believe it to be divine :hmm: I believe it to be the work of men like Paul and Marks'. and because it's the work of Men I believe that's why there's so many contradictions that have to be taken out and replaced with a new version bible :hmm:

it's like my quoting you the Qur'an it would mean nothing to you right since you don't accept it as divine, you accept it to be the word of a man called Muhammed and not the word of God.

but the word of Muhammed as you believe it to be, is free from errros and contradictions which in my eyes is much more acceptable as a revelation of God than a book that has verses removed and inserted by men because of contradictions.

The Qur'an even sets the criterion for whether or not something is from God, it says "if this revelation wasn't from God then it would contain many errors and contradictions" but the fact is it's perfect in every way, it says " if you believe this to be from other than god then try to reproduce a chapter like it" and no one has been able to reproduce a chapter like it which tells me it's from God and not the handywork of men. and the fact that it talks about facts like the Universe is constantly expanding, which was only recently discovered, it's not possible for them to have known that 1400 years ago but the Qur'an reveals it.

that's why I believe it to be from God, I believe what Jesus preached was from God also however I believe what Jesus preached has been distorted and corrupted by the hands of men.

where as the Qur'an is in it's orignal form, it's been the same for 1400 years, men haven't changed it, Imams (priests and rabbi's) haven't changed it,

cos God says in it

"I will preserve this book from modification by the hands of men"

also whose interpretation of the bible do you follow?? as you know a text can be interpretated in many different ways, we could both read the same thing and interpret it, in completely different ways, so who's interpretation of the bible do you follow?

your own interpretation?

your vicars interpretation?

your dad or mums interpretation?

[Samiun]

This thread is pointless. Yes I am serious about it. Just think about it, it's hard to change a fact that has been around for more than a thousand year and make people believe that that particular fact is false/true. It's just pointless. I know that some people with great knowledge and understanding would accept and that some of the people who are arrogant enough couldn't accept the fact. It's just like the boy who cried wolf. It's a sad story.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Say Amen' when the Imam says "Ghair-il-maghdubi 'alaihim wala-ddal-lin; not the path of those who earn Your Anger (such as Jews) nor of those who go astray (such as Christians); all the past sins of the person whose saying (of Amin) coincides with that of the angels, will be forgiven. (Book #12, Hadith #749)

[Supreme]

This thread is pointless. Yes I am serious about it. Just think about it, it's hard to change a fact that has been around for more than a thousand year and make people believe that that particular fact is false/true. It's just pointless. I know that some people with great knowledge and understanding would accept and that some of the people who are arrogant enough couldn't accept the fact. It's just like the boy who cried wolf. It's a sad story.

I wouldn't say this thread is completely pointless- I mean, learning about the religious beliefs of others can only make you wiser, and that's hardly a bad thing, even if you're not going to get the other side to agree with your religious beliefs or convert them.

[mkh4JC]

@ fedos picking out verses from the bible does not constitute proof for a muslim. i was talking about thinking logically about it. see why did jesus have to "humble" himself before the father and not vice versa. i (and probably most people) can come up with a huge list of questions that contradict trinity and cannot be explained rationally.

what you are now going to do is tell me something like 'no no jesus was a purehearted being and it made no difference to him to be crucified'

which is basically just inventing some new characteristics and dynamics of jesus to rebut. if not that then coming back to 'god in his infinite wisdom decided'
stop deluding urself, your religion is incompatible with natural thought.

Well, I'm not denying that truly believing in the God of the Bible and his Son Jesus Christ takes divine intervention. In fact, Jesus said it this way.

'No man can come to me, except the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.' St John 6: 44.

We are all born in sin and with sin nature, and it blinds us to the reality of God. Without God revealing himself to us then we are going to think that the things of God are foolishness.

'For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chose the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.' I Corinthians 1: 18-29.

^ Christians don't believe in 1 god though, they're pagans I think cos they believe in 2 gods jesus and god.




hmm so he's always existed with God, how did he become into being like who is his mother that conceived him and gave him as a son to God? If God doesn't reproduce then how can he have the relation of a son, isn't a son from the reproduction of a father? so how can he be a son of god if he wasn't reproduced by God :hmm: cos the relation isn't there.

What happened in the incarnation is, Jesus literally stepped down from the throne of heaven and entered into the womb of Mary.

^ so jesus gave up his divine powers and became like a lowly animal human that has human desires and needs food and sleep and has to use the bathroom?

and he did this why? :hmm: to pay for our sins? but I find that to be unjust why should someone else pay for my mistakes. It's like a murderer getting away scotch free cos some1 has paid for the crime of the murder and, that is unjust.

He did it to deliver us from the power that sin has over our lives. When you become Christian, God sets you free from your sins, so that you can begin to live a life of holiness. He who lived perfectly shed his blood (his life) on a cross and when you accept him you receive his perfect righteousness (because God demand's perfection from us) and are then delivered from all the things that you were bound with as a sinner. It doesn't mean that you are impervious from committing another sin, because the writer of Hebrews says that those Christians who do sin will fall under the discipline of an Almighty God. And I should know, having been suffering severally for sins that I committed way back in the summer of 2002.

^ and is God that limited in his forgiveness that he can't forgive unless something is sacraficed for him? if that's the case Humans are more forgiving and mercifull than god cos we don't require a sacrafice to forgive our children. We don't require our children to shed blood so we can forgive them where as god does so I guess we're more forgiving than god.

God is a Holy God. He is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. In the cross, these two extremes are met. The cross is perfect justice because God punishes sin to the fullest (Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross). And the cross is perfect mercy because God redeems all those who come to him from a life of bondage to sin.

and since jesus has paid for our debt with his blood, how come we can't do what ever we want now?? I mean Jesus has paid for our debt with his blood right so we don't have to worry about the debt of sin now cos it's been paid for with Jesus's blood right? .

If you, as a professing Christian, get 'saved' and then start living any old kind of lifestyle that you want because you are now 'saved' then that is evidence that you were never saved to begin with. God is a constant in the lives of Christians. He is always disciplining and reproving us. If you screw up, then get ready to be chastened sore for it (I should know, I have been chastened sore for seven years now.)

If you as a Christian will not be disciplined by God then he will just end your life. There is no such thing as a conintually carnal (sinful) Christian.

also why would god create us as sinful and then expect us to pay for the debt of sin when he made us this why?

I don't know why God allowed the devil to tempt Eve and thus Adam and bring about the fall. Our world was originally perfect, with one requirement that Adam and Eve had to obey, not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If they wouldn't have eaten from it, our world would not be fallen. God has a purpose for everything that he does though, he doesn't just do random things without backing them up with a purpose, he's not like us.

^it's like me creating an alarm clock and asking it to pay for being noisy and waking me up in the morning, it's only doing what is in it's nature so how can I expect it to pay for it's debt when I made it that way?

God doesn't want us to pay for our sins. He wants us to come into a loving relationship with his Son Jesus Christ. He wants to forgive us and set us on the path of rightouesness and holiness, without which no man will see the Lord.

^there's no human being who is sin free so why would God expect us to pay for a design flaw that is his fault? the design flaw being sin that he doesn't accept.

This is true. There is no human being who is sin free. But Christians are no longer bound by sin the way that a sinner is, in all areas of life. We are all born in sin and with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, God changes your nature, you are allowed to partake of his divine nature and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it. This is one of the major differences between Christianity and other religions.

if God wanted sinless individuals in his kingdom why didn't he just create sinless individuals :hmm: instead of making them with faults and then asking them to pay for those faults.

All those who are redeemed by the blood of Jesus will live perfect and sinless lives in the kingdom of God. As I said, I don't know why God allowed the fall to happen in the first place, but he did, and I know he has a puprose behind it. I don't know, for instance, why God didn't intervene on my behalf and stop me from making the mistake that I did which caused me to sin when I first accepted him, but he did, and now I trust that there is a puprose involved.

I still don't understand why God contradicted himself when his message from the start of time was "there's 1 god worship me alone without any partners"

you quoted passages from the bible but they don't really make sense to me and I don't believe the bible to be the word of God as I mentioned earlier, the word of God is perfect and divine, therefore it doesn't need correcting by men to be made free from errors. However that isn't the case with the bible, errors are corrected then new versions are released, how can god make errors and contradictions in his revelation :hmm:

Well, we have scrolls like the Dead Sea Scrolls and whatnot, from many, many years ago, that confirms the message of scripture. And the New Testament is more documented and verified than any other ancient manuscript.

also whose interpretation of the bible do you follow?? as you know a text can be interpretated in many different ways, we could both read the same thing and interpret it, in completely different ways, so who's interpretation of the bible do you follow?

your own interpretation?

your vicars interpretation?

your dad or mums interpretation?

You're supposed to have a good number of commentaries to read alongside reading the Bible, but the Holy Spirit is the one who leads you into all truth while you are learning about God.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you cat eyes;

what argument can u non muslim possibly bring that jesus was crucified????

There is no evidence that will convince you, because you take your evidence from the Quran.

But the greater question for me is, how do we get on with each other despite all our differences?

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding, and friendship.

Eric

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

The verse says:



Which implies very much so that He did die on a Cross. I still don't understand where the problem is.

24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

He did not die according to that verse "freeyin him from the agony of death", means u didnt die, well my main problem is why do you believe Jesus is God? when its never mentioned in the bible itself!

[abu salaahudeen]

[QUOTE=Supreme;1268208
This is a problem. If God cannot die, He is not omnipotent as He does not have the power to kill Himself. If God can die, then He is not immortal.[/QUOTE]

blasphemy.

This is christianity people.

[Supreme]

24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

He did not die according to that verse "freeyin him from the agony of death", means u didnt die, well my main problem is why do you believe Jesus is God? when its never mentioned in the bible itself!

Yes, He was freed of the agony of death because He was raised from death. How you could have arrived at such a conclusion when the verse clearly states He did die, and was raised from death, is beyond me.

[Ramadhan]

blasphemy.

This is christianity people.

You are right.
Christianity demands that God must die to be omnipotent.
That as twisted a logic as can be.

But twisted logic is required aplenty in christianity to account for the
1 + 1 + 1 = 1 concept of god.

And complete faith in twisted logic is demanded for christians to fill in gaps of many errors found in Bible.

[mkh4JC]

You are right.
Christianity demands that God must die to be omnipotent.
That as twisted a logic as can be.

But twisted logic is required aplenty in christianity to account for the
1 + 1 + 1 = 1 concept of god.

And complete faith in twisted logic is demanded for christians to fill in gaps of many errors found in Bible.

Jesus said this in the Gospels: 'Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:' Matthew 28: 19. It would be better to say: 1x1x1=1

[جوري]

You are right.
Christianity demands that God must die to be omnipotent.
That as twisted a logic as can be.

But twisted logic is required aplenty in christianity to account for the
1 + 1 + 1 = 1 concept of god.

And complete faith in twisted logic is demanded for christians to fill in gaps of many errors found in Bible.

It makes for good fairy tales.. god being a sheep or a lion or dead or a man..

Narnia anyone?

all I can say is:

[Pickthal 71:13] What aileth you that ye hope not toward God for dignity


:w:

[Eric H]

Blessings and peace be with you all,

Despite all our differences, the same God hears all our prayers.

Beyond a doubt the same God will know, the diverse scriptures he has placed in each of our hearts.

How do we each live with seemingly conflicting beliefs, should we still be kind to each other.

Every blessing to you all

Eric

[glo]

24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

He did not die according to that verse "freeyin him from the agony of death", means u didnt die, well my main problem is why do you believe Jesus is God? when its never mentioned in the bible itself!

I disagree.
The verse does not say 'Freeing him from the agony of dying' (in which case I may agree with you) ... instead it says 'Freeing him from the agony of death', meaning the state of 'having died' and 'being dead'.

In other words, Jesus was resurrected from the state of being dead to being alive again.

[LaRocque]

I have to say, I am a little disappointed at the attitude I am seeing in this thread. The majority of the posts are nothing more that attacks on Christian beliefs, and insults. I think most of the Christians on this board are here to learn and be open minded. Most of us realize that there is a huge misrepresentation and want to know the truth about Islam. Repeatedly I have seen, "I believe, I don't believe, I don't understand..." There is no need to ridicule. There is SOOO much in common, but no one focuses on anything other than the differences, and I find that very sad.
Why don't we start a thread on the commonalities rather than trying to prove one another wrong or right?

[Supreme]

It makes for good fairy tales.. god being a sheep or a lion or dead or a man..

Narnia anyone?

all I can say is:

[Pickthal 71:13] What aileth you that ye hope not toward God for dignity


:w:

It's funny you should say that, because CS Lewis was a devout Christian and some of his stories show Christian influence.

I disagree.
The verse does not say 'Freeing him from the agony of dying' (in which case I may agree with you) ... instead it says 'Freeing him from the agony of death', meaning the state of 'having died' and 'being dead'.

Exactly. That's essentially what I've been saying all along. As I said before, I think it's probably the poster's poor grasp of English more than anything else.

[Ramadhan]

I have to say, I am a little disappointed at the attitude I am seeing in this thread. The majority of the posts are nothing more that attacks on Christian beliefs, and insults. I think most of the Christians on this board are here to learn and be open minded. Most of us realize that there is a huge misrepresentation and want to know the truth about Islam. Repeatedly I have seen, "I believe, I don't believe, I don't understand..." There is no need to ridicule. There is SOOO much in common, but no one focuses on anything other than the differences, and I find that very sad.
Why don't we start a thread on the commonalities rather than trying to prove one another wrong or right?

I beg to differ.
This is the Comparative Religion forum, so naturally it is a place to discuss other religions in relations to Islam, at lengths and in critical manner.
And I truly believe the majority here have done just that.

If you have questions about Islam, ask away, in appropriate threads and forums.
And if you think others have misunderstandings about christianity then you should partake in the discussions in constructive manner to clarify the matter, but do not expect others to treat you or the subjects with kid glove.
Trust me, if there were undue attacks, the admins or moderators would have taken away the posts or at least gave warnings. They are that vigilant.

Like for example, I understand that most christians think
Father + Holy Spirit + Jesus pbuh = God
And so as many others have simplified the concept using the mathematical model
1 + 1 + 1 = 1
But I was surprised that someone has just mentioned it was more like
1 x 1 x 1 = 1
which one do you think is more accurate?

Now, back on topic, I also understand that all christians believe Jesus pbuh was crucified and died to atone the sins of all humanity, that means the equations should be modified to:
1 + 1 + (-)1 = 2
Or
1 x 1 x (-)1 = -1
the negative sign is to account for the death of Jesus pbuh.

What do you think about this?

[جوري]

It's funny you should say that, because CS Lewis was a devout Christian and some of his stories show Christian influence.

.

Why is it funny? I watched Narnia and it has a very christian underpinning .. the lion dying, coming back to life.. like I said a religion that makes for good fairy tales for children.. God in lion form, santa clause down chimneys .. it is a shame they have to grow up with so many made up lies!


BTW I have no interest in converting any of you (if that is what you deem the purpose of the thread, then Muslims would be better off traveling to christian sites than starting threads here)

.. the only christian on this forum that I have utmost respect and concern for is Eric H.. and I do wish him better!


all the best!

[Supreme]

Why is it funny? I watched Narnia and it has a very christian underpinning .. the lion dying, coming back to life.. like I said a religion that makes for good fairy tales for children.. God in lion form, santa clause down chimneys .. it is a shame they have to grow up with so many made up lies!

Oh bless... this is someone's idea of an argument! Watch out Gossamer, you may unwittingly achieve a conversion with such backed up, well thought out, unsarcastic, university lecturer level comments!

.. the only christian on this forum that I have utmost respect and concern for is Eric H.. and I do wish him better!

Oh darn- a stranger on an internet forum has no respect for me. It never ceases to amaze me how you pretend- heck, you may even believe- that we actually care whether or not we're on your birthday card list!

[جوري]

Oh bless... this is someone's idea of an argument! Watch out Gossamer, you may unwittingly achieve a conversion with such backed up, well thought out, unsarcastic, university lecturer level comments!

You can tell the difference between an argument and a comment? I wasn't offering you any arguments, as expressed clearly I couldn't careless if you worship Jesus or aton!

Oh darn- a stranger on an internet forum has no respect for me. It never ceases to amaze me how you pretend- heck, you may even believe- that we actually care whether or not we're on your birthday card list!

That is mildly comical man.. I joined a Muslim forum for the christian attention.. Try to herb up less, the more brain cells you waste the more puerile you get and I can't imagine you any lower!


all the best

[Supreme]

You can tell the difference between an argument and a comment? I wasn't offering you any arguments, as expressed clearly I couldn't careless if you worship Jesus or aton!

Could've fooled me, your hostility towards Christians and Christianity in general would suggest otherwise.

That is mildly comical man.. I joined a Muslim forum for the christian attention.. Try to herb up less, the more brain cells you waste the more puerile you get and I can't imagine you any lower

Actually, I would've thought you were part of a Muslim forum because they're the only people who can withstand your constant 2nd grade standard insults, although I'm sure being respected by you, a stranger on the internet no less, makes it all worthwhile!

[جوري]

Could've fooled me, your hostility towards Christians and Christianity in general would suggest otherwise.

You are easily fooled because the level of a cesspool is where you like to hover!

Actually, I would've thought you were part of a Muslim forum because they're the only people who can withstand your constant 2nd grade standard insults, although I'm sure being respected by you, a stranger on the internet no less, makes it all worthwhile!

You must stand at a two year old tantrum then for you can never resist to bait me or focus your attention long enough to understand the subject matter to remain in keeping with the topic!

all the best

[Uthman]

Members please bear in mind the following rule:

9. Beef will not be tolerated in any forum. Differences in opinion are expected, but please debate respectfully. (Beef are comments made for the purpose of insulting somebody else with negative intent, looking for a negative reaction, or blatantly insulting somebody)

[Italianguy]

The doctrine of the Trinity — that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God — is admittedly difficult to comprehend, and yet is the very foundation of Christian truth. Although skeptics may ridicule it as a mathematical impossibility, it is nevertheless a basic doctrine of Scripture as well as profoundly realistic in both universal experience and in the scientific understanding of the cosmos.
Both Old and New Testaments teach the Unity and the Trinity of the Godhead. The idea that there is only one God, who created all things, is repeatedly emphasized in such Scriptures as Isaiah 45:18:
“For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; …I am the Lord; and there is none else.”
A New Testament example is James 2:19:
“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble.”
The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16:
“I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”
The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).
The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said:
“But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me.”
Then there is the baptismal formula:
“baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).
One name (God) — yet three names!
JESUS — That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said:
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
HOLY SPIRIT — Some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said:
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come” (John 16:13).
TRI-UNITY — The teaching of the Bible concerning the Trinity might be summarized thus. God is a Tri-unity, with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one. The three Persons appear in a logical, causal order. The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.
We “see” God and His great salvation in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then “experience” their reality by faith, through the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.
Though these relationships seem paradoxical, and to some completely impossible, they are profoundly realistic, and their truth is ingrained deep in man's nature. Thus, men have always sensed first the truth that God must be “out there,” everywhere present and the First Cause of all things, but they have corrupted this intuitive knowledge of the Father into pantheism and ultimately into naturalism.
Similarly, men have always felt the need to “see” God in terms of their own experience and understanding, but this knowledge that God must reveal Himself has been distorted into polytheism and idolatry. Men have thus continually erected “models” of God, sometimes in the form of graven images, sometimes even in the form of philosophical systems purporting to represent ultimate reality.
Finally, men have always known that they should be able to have communion with their Creator and to experience His presence “within.” But this deep intuition of the Holy Spirit has been corrupted into various forms of false mysticism and fanaticism, and even into spiritism and demonism. Thus, the truth of God's tri-unity is ingrained in man's very nature, but he has often distorted it and substituted a false god in its place.

His body really did die. The Roman soldiers made sure of that. They were experts at killing people.

Jesus Christ's physical body was 100-percent human, not just part human. Our bodies can die, and so could his. When we die, our physical body dies, but our soul and spirit remain. They are eternal; they never die. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His physical body died, but his inner self is eternal and did not die.
Is Jesus alive today?
Yes, he is. Thousands of people saw him alive again. The Bible is very clear; Jesus Christ's physical body is no longer dead. He is alive today. The Bible records 11 times when people saw him.
How can this be?
Jesus is more than a man. Although he is 100-percent human, he is also 100% God, the Creator of the universe. He is all-powerful. Although evil men killed his physical body, he easily had the power to restore life to his body again.

When his body came alive, he walked out of his tomb, completely healthy and strong.
As you can imagine, when this happened in the darkness, it really frightened the Roman soldiers who were guarding his tomb to keep people away. They were surprised and terrified! It was suddenly very obvious that Jesus was not merely a man. He is God, with power over life and death.
The people of Jerusalem certainly should have known this already. Jesus had proved it many times before. He raised many people from the dead. One was a young girl. Another was a man who had been dead and buried for days.
Here's something else that is wonderful. Did you know that the moment that Jesus Christ's physical body died, he brought many dead people to life in the city of Jerusalem? It's true! The people were alive and healthy again. Many people saw them in the streets and homes of that great city (Matthew 27:52-53), and were so glad to see them again. These were not ghosts (there are no such things). These were living, breathing people, seen by many. They had been dead, some perhaps for years, and now they were alive because of Jesus' great power![1]
What about your death or the death of someone you love?
Here is a fact that is even more amazing! Everyone who dies and is a true follower of Jesus Christ will experience this same, awesome, life-giving power. Jesus will give them their body back again—alive, heathy and strong—a glorious body. Won't that be wonderful! Millions and perhaps billions of people will be made alive again. Mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, grandparents—every person that is a true follower of Jesus will be alive again—forever.
For all of us who are Christians, death is not permanent. When our loved ones in Christ die, we can know for certain that we will see them alive again.
You can be one of those people! If you haven't already done so. Admit that you are a sinner that has broken the Law and deserves punishment and is lost without him. Accept his free gift of salvation and life. Become a faithful follower of Jesus Christ, the Lord and Giver of Life.

No offense to anyone just some more to add to the thread.

[cat eyes]

Fair enough.



So do I, which is why you'll never catch me creating a thread with a link to YouTube in a desperate bid to convert people of other faiths (or spreading the Good News/Word as other Christians would call it).



This is a problem. If God cannot die, He is not omnipotent as He does not have the power to kill Himself. If God can die, then He is not immortal.

:sl: my attempt or zakir's naik attempt? lol this is not me speaking. this is dr. zakir naik speaking. please dont give me the credit for his amazing work. this lecture is very famous loads of pple reverted after watching it so hes amazing attempt worked. though i was wanting to find the full lenght lecture of it but its very long to. btw what made u think this vid was especially for you? cos thats what your sounding like so get down off your high horse and stop belittling pple with your snide comments. your amazing at that.

[cat eyes]

.. the only christian on this forum that I have utmost respect and concern for is Eric H.. and I do wish him better!


all the best!

my feelings exactly :hiding:

[Italianguy]

my feelings exactly :hiding:

Ahhhhh man, :hmm: what about me?........just kidding

God bless all of you!

[Supreme]

Members please bear in mind the following rule:

9. Beef will not be tolerated in any forum. Differences in opinion are expected, but please debate respectfully. (Beef are comments made for the purpose of insulting somebody else with negative intent, looking for a negative reaction, or blatantly insulting somebody)

I apologise if I offended Gossamer, but as other members know, it's just banter!

Italianguy, I've never seen you post such a grammatically sound post. But yeah, it raised some good points, although this thread is solely about the claim the Bible doesn't say Jesus was crucified, an inane assertion reserved only for Islamic/other faith lecturers or people who are trying to convince themselves- as if they weren't convinced enough- that Christianity is a falsehood, and that they need Biblical evidence to prove so, despite not having read a single complete chapter of the Bible in their lives. This video falls into the former.

my attempt or zakir's naik attempt? lol this is not me speaking. this is dr. zakir naik speaking. please dont give me the credit for his amazing work. this lecture is very famous loads of pple reverted after watching it so hes amazing attempt worked. though i was wanting to find the full lenght lecture of it but its very long to. btw what made u think this vid was especially for you? cos thats what your sounding like so get down off your high horse and stop belittling pple with your snide comments. your amazing at that.

Dr Naik didn't create this thread, did he? And loads of people reverted after watching it, that suggests you created this thread to revert people, presumably Christians seeing as the topic is Jesus, so that implies the video you posted is aimed at me and people of my faith. Or was this thread created to entertain Muslims?

[tango92]

@ bro naidamar

mathematically it kinda works. but consider the triplets analogy. if each triplet is 1, then its kinda dumb to say 1*1*1 = 1 kid. 1 SET of kids sure.

and christians believe all three entities to be different each possesing different qualities. eg jesus a man - so even their numerical values should be different.

if you ask me its more like (1/3)+(1/3)+(1/3)=1

therefore each is a third God. hence contradiction - i made a mistake, jesus appears to be less of a god then the father (yh he says the father is superior to him) and if the holy ghost is less than jesus

maybe (6/10) + (3/10) (1+10) = god

astugfirullah

[Italianguy]

I have an article on Christs crucificion , I will post it:D

[Italianguy]

John 19:16-42 NIV
The Crucifixion

16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified. So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. 17Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). 18Here they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle.
19Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read:|sc JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 20Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. 21The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, "Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews."
22Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written."
23When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.
24"Let's not tear it," they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it."
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said,
"They divided my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing."[a] So this is what the soldiers did.
25Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home

The Death of Jesus
28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"[b] 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."[c]
The Burial of Jesus
38Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away. 39He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.[d] 40Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. 41At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. 42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.



Hope this helps.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

.. Or was this thread created to entertain Muslims?

Did not follow the thread but I guess ans is no.

It was hard for me to take part in the Catholic and other Christians forum because almost each post went against my belief . It was painful to telerate all the harsh comments about my beloved Prophet pbuh and holy book and to hear from some Christians how Jesus pbuh will burn Muhammed pbuh in hell.

Christians in any Islamic forum are in a better position because Muslims respect both the Mother Mary and Jesus pbut and never utter any nasty words against them or fry them in fire .

So , Supreme I can understand it's hard for u to read our posts that go against ur belief but think that at least we respect your Lord and his mom . Try to feel my pain and other Muslims pain that we suffer in Christians forums . May be it will help u to ease ur sufferings here ( hopefully).

[Italianguy]

Salaam/Peace



Did not follow the thread but I guess ans is no.

It was hard for me to take part in the Catholic and other Christians forum because almost each post went against my belief . It was painful to telerate all the harsh comments about my beloved Prophet pbuh and holy book and to hear from some Christians how Jesus pbuh will burn Muhammed pbuh in hell.

Christians in any Islamic forum are in a better position because Muslims respect both the Mother Mary and Jesus pbut and never utter any nasty words against them or fry them in fire .

So , Supreme I can understand it's hard for u to read our posts that go against ur belief but think that at least we respect your Lord and his mom . Try to feel my pain and other Muslims pain that we suffer in Christians forums . May be it will help u to ease ur sufferings here ( hopefully).

I want to take this time to appologise for my fellow Christians whom may have made you feel unwelcome on those threads. Not all Christians feel that way. I respect my Muslim sisters and brothers beliefs and would never insult any part of Islam and or its prophets (PBUT). I have found some of the same things you speak of on those threads and have been trying diligently to stop and or advise those whom would say those things on those forums. I have been asked numerous times lately, by my more understanding Christian bretheren to start and orginize a Christian forum for all faiths to enjoy and answer questions without being chastised on every attempt. I think, starting this week i will do so. I will invite all whom want to join and will work on getting it started soon.

Again i appologse.

Please excuse my typing, grammar and punctuation as most of my replies are usually typed on my iphone and my fingures start to get numb and or tight:p

God bless.

[Supreme]

Salaam/Peace



Did not follow the thread but I guess ans is no.

It was hard for me to take part in the Catholic and other Christians forum because almost each post went against my belief . It was painful to telerate all the harsh comments about my beloved Prophet pbuh and holy book and to hear from some Christians how Jesus pbuh will burn Muhammed pbuh in hell.

Christians in any Islamic forum are in a better position because Muslims respect both the Mother Mary and Jesus pbut and never utter any nasty words against them or fry them in fire .

So , Supreme I can understand it's hard for u to read our posts that go against ur belief but think that at least we respect your Lord and his mom . Try to feel my pain and other Muslims pain that we suffer in Christians forums . May be it will help u to ease ur sufferings here ( hopefully).

That is disgraceful, on the Christian forum I frequent, any such insults would result in a deletion of that post and the discipline of that member. I also never said it was hard to read the posts on here about Christianity, and never said some of the posts here make me suffer. Sister, if anything, I enjoy reading some of the posts here, as it does let me know to a certain degree which members know a lot about Christianity and which members know actually hardly anything about Christianity.

I know you respect Jesus and heck, Muslims give more reverence to the virgin Mary than most Protestant Christians (such as myself) do. That's why it's rather easy to talk to Muslims, we share practically the same beliefs up until Christ's crucifixion and that is where we begin to disagree theology wise.

[cat eyes]

Dr Naik didn't create this thread, did he? And loads of people reverted after watching it, that suggests you created this thread to revert people, presumably Christians seeing as the topic is Jesus, so that implies the video you posted is aimed at me and people of my faith. Or was this thread created to entertain Muslims?

supreme last time i checked this is an islamic forum where members share islamic lectures with everyone.. obviously a little lecture is not going to make somebody revert im not forcing anybody to revert. thats upto Allah swt of course. i also share vids with my sis it dosent mean i expect her to revert but i like to share my faith with others and because the bibles are so corrupted i don't know where non muslims get the evidence to support there belief thats all. but our scripture is clear you know what i'm saying but its also our belief not to mock any other religion and be kind to non muslim's inshaAllah. so if i offended u or whatever i didn't mean to.. but what i really don't like is your cruel with some muslim members and i don't like that. we can debate in a more friendly way:wa:

[Eric H]

Greetings and peaace be with you Muslim Woman;

It was hard for me to take part in the Catholic and other Christians forum because almost each post went against my belief . It was painful to telerate all the harsh comments about my beloved Prophet pbuh and holy book and to hear from some Christians how Jesus pbuh will burn Muhammed pbuh in hell.

Like Supreme and Italianguy, I am so sorry that you suffer on Christian forums. If you are still having problems, please give me a link, maybe I can help.

We would all like to bring glory to God through our words and deeds, it seems easier to do this when we are with people who believe the same as us. But I wonder how we can bring glory to God when we are with people who oppose our beliefs.

Beyond a doubt I believe in the life, death and resurection of Jesus, the Son Of God, this has a deep and profound meaning for me.

I feel we should defend truth at all costs, but I feel the greatest truth to defend, is the right to deal in loving kindness with each other despite all our differences, and we should be willing to forgive.

Every blessing

Eric

[KittenLover]

In every group of people you get bad apples.

[Ramadhan]

In every group of people you get bad apples.

yes, but a real muslim will never insult Jesus pbuh and his mother, Maryam.
OTOH, I've encountered many christians who insulted prophet Muhammad SAW and blasphemed Allah SWT
Astaghfirullah

I never understand those people.
They seem to have no knowledge whatsoever about the teachings from Jesus PBUH

[Predator]

OTOH, I've encountered many christians who insulted prophet Muhammad SAW and blasphemed Allah SWT
Astaghfirullah

The name Jesus occurs times in the Quran 500% more times (25) than the name Muhammad (5)

And Mary name appears in the Bible 18 times
And in the Quran ,Mary names appears 32 times and also there is a chapter with Mary's name

Even when Prophet Muhammad met Prophet Jesus in his ascension , they both exchanged greetings and Jesus prayed for him thus clearly indicating that they're both on the same team.

A true Christian will respect other religions . These people who have blasphemed Muhammad and insulted Allah are spineless cowards who are basically spewing out filth and are not worth having a discussion as in reality they know nothing about religion and should FIRST be taught to respect other religions even if they dont believe in them before they start any discussion on religion

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

Greetings and peaace be with you Muslim Woman;


.... If you are still having problems, please give me a link, maybe I can help.

thanks bro but it's too late. I am already banned in 2 forums and one forum is closed long ago.

Now , sometimes I feel like joining a Christian forum , but when think about some possible fanatic Christians who will bash my Prophet pbuh 24/7 , I lost the courage and interest.

Anyway , thanks a lot for trying to help. May God bless you .

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Muslim Woman;

I am a Catholic, and I came close to being banned from a Catholic Forum, I don’t tend to post much on Christian forums now, but I have been here for nearly five years. Maybe I should post more on Catholic forums again.

Now , sometimes I feel like joining a Christian forum , but when think about some possible fanatic Christians who will bash my Prophet pbuh 24/7 , I lost the courage and interest.

That’s a tough problem to deal with, and sadly to say, it would happen again. On occasions the same kind of things are said against Christianity on this forum, but I have to say the mods are really good, and a great help. From a personal point of view, if someone says harsh things about my faith, I try not to respond for twenty four hours.

Two things seem to happen, other people respond to the post, they may also be fanatical, but more importantly, I have time to calm down, and search for a kind response. I cannot change what other people think of my faith, I can only change how I respond to them.

Praying for them helps, if you can find ways to respond kindly after fanatical and provocative posts, then your faith in Islam will shine brightly.

Every blessing

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Gossamer skye, and cat eyes;

.. the only christian on this forum that I have utmost respect and concern for is Eric H.. and I do wish him better!

Thank you so much for your kind words, but they do cause me problems. In a way it is easy to like the people who are kind to us, I feel the greater challenge is, how do we strive to respect those who give us the most grief.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Every blessing

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Airforce;

Even when Prophet Muhammad met Prophet Jesus in his ascension , they both exchanged greetings and Jesus prayed for him thus clearly indicating that they're both on the same team.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are linked together by The Temple Mount, The Dome of the Rock, and Al-Asqa Mosque, but where is God amongst all this diversity?

It is said in Judaism and Christianity, that God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son in the region of Mount Moriah. It is also said that God commanded Solomon to build the Temple Mount on Mount Moriah, this is a huge structure, a small part of it is what we know as the Wailing Wall, or Western Wall. On top of the Temple Mount, which I can only describe as a massive foundation, God commanded Solomon to build a Temple, that will house ‘The Ark of the Covenant’ better known as the Ten Commandments.

The Temple was destroyed, and the Two Mosques were built on top of the Temple Mount, were the Temple once stood. The Dome is said to be the place where the prophet pbuh, ascended up to heaven on his winged horse.

My question is, Where is God amongst all this diversity, why did he place us all together on this one place?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[Predator]

Greetings and peace be with you EricH ,

but where is God amongst all this diversity?

God is above the heavens

[Supreme]

Salaam/Peace



thanks bro but it's too late. I am already banned in 2 forums and one forum is closed long ago.

Now , sometimes I feel like joining a Christian forum , but when think about some possible fanatic Christians who will bash my Prophet pbuh 24/7 , I lost the courage and interest.

Anyway , thanks a lot for trying to help. May God bless you .

If you joined the Christian forums I'm part of, there would be no such insults hurled at you. I think it's one of the largest forums on the net, it has a rather small but growing Muslim community. We did have a Muslim nutter on it a few months back trying to convert us all, but he was duly banned, so as long as you don't proselytize- just as Christians aren't allowed to do here- you should be fine and your prophet respected.

[Grace Seeker]

If you joined the Christian forums I'm part of, there would be no such insults hurled at you. I think it's one of the largest forums on the net, it has a rather small but growing Muslim community. We did have a Muslim nutter on it a few months back trying to convert us all, but he was duly banned, so as long as you don't proselytize- just as Christians aren't allowed to do here- you should be fine and your prophet respected.

I only wish that were true. But I am a member of that forum. I find it very wide ranging with the tolerance level for differences varying greatly from sub-forum to sub-form with in it. In some places it is indeed well balanced with a wide variety of thoughts accepted and disagreements tolerated. In other places, a person who is a non-covenantal reformed Baptist of the 1833 convention will be vilified by those who belong to non-covenantal reformed Baptist churches of the 1835 convention.

[Grace Seeker]

yes, but a real muslim will never insult Jesus pbuh and his mother, Maryam.
OTOH, I've encountered many christians who insulted prophet Muhammad SAW and blasphemed Allah SWT
Astaghfirullah

I never understand those people.
They seem to have no knowledge whatsoever about the teachings from Jesus PBUH

If you consider the only source of knowledge about teachings from Jesus to be found in the Qur'an, then you are exactly right, most Christians will have no knowledge of that. However, I thank you for bringing us back to the topic of this thread, which is what the Bible (not the Qur'an and not Isalm) says about Jesus' crucifixion.

The OP references a video. Others have responded here with quotes from the Bible that (IMO) clearly show that the Bible does speak of Jesus being crucified. Some people seem to read those quotes and not accept that when the Bible says "he was crucified" (2 Corinthians 13:4) that it means that he was indeed crucified. Against such (il)logic I cannot argue. Others, perhaps seeing that the Bible does indeed clearly say that Jesus was crucified, have changed the subject to raise all manner of other objections against from their own lack of understanding of the Christian concept of the Trinity to arguing from Islamic tradition that Jesus didn't actually die or some even bellittling Christians for our beliefs, but such distractions -- and that is all these comments are, distractions and not comments relevant to the thread's actually topic -- do nothing to put forth the case made by the OP, which I believe has been thoroughly refuted.


Perhaps the OP wanted to argue that the Bible is wrong, or that even though he was crucified that Jesus wasn't really dead. But as for what, in the words of the OP's topic sentence, the "Bible clearly says":

2 Corinthians 13:4
For to be sure, he [Jesus] was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him to serve you.

Matthew 28:5
The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.

Mark 15:24-25
24And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get. 25It was the third hour when they crucified him.

Luke 24:20
"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him;

John 19:41
At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid.

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

[Predator]

But as for what, in the words of the OP's topic sentence, the "Bible clearly says":

2 Corinthians 13:4
For to be sure, he [Jesus] was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him to serve you.

Matthew 28:5
The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified.

Mark 15:24-25
24And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get. 25It was the third hour when they crucified him.

Luke 24:20
"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him;

John 19:41
At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid.

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

And the Bible also contradicts itself with :

"And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening
him."
(Luke 22:43)

He keepeth all his bones, not one of them is broken."
(Psalm 34:20)

If the bones of a victim were to be protected from harm, then they could only be of benefit if the person was ALIVE! For a person, already dead, intact bones mean nothing. Whether theyare sawed into pieces, or smashed into smithereens, it will not make any difference to the resurrected body, the spirit or the ghost

". . . angels who had said that he was ALIVE!" - Luke 24:23. Did not say,
"resurrected" but the actual word uttered by the angels was "ALIVE!"


28. MARY MAGDALENE TESTIFIES -
". . . they heard that he was ALIVE, and had been seen by her, they believed
not." - (Mark 16:11): Mary did not vouch for a spook, or ghost or spirit of
Jesus but a LIVE Jesus. What they could not believe was that the Master was
ALIVE!


"For I am not yet ASCENDED unto my Father."
(John 20:17)
She is not blind. She can see the man standing there before her. What does he mean by "notyet ascended" - GONE UP - when he was DOWN right there? He is, in fact, telling her thathe is not RESURRECTED from the DEAD, but ALIVE!"

"And they (the disciples), when they heard that he was ALIVE, and had
been seen by her (Mary Magdalene), they BELIEVED NOT."
(Mark 16:11)


"And they (the disciples), when they heard that he was ALIVE, and had
been seen by her (Mary Magdalene), they BELIEVED NOT."


"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I am
the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and
bones, as you see me have.
. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet Luke 24:39-40

Luke 24:41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?"

Luke 24:43 and He took it and ate it before them


To prove what? That he is RESURRECTED that he is the same living Jesus .

[M.I.A.]

when you mention him is it not right to say P.B.U.H?
just asking

[KittenLover]

As brother air force posted a few of the many contradictions in the bible it astounds me as to how people can accept it's authenticity and take what it says to be true. Don't these errors raise doubts about the validity of the bible? :S wouldn't a book from god be perfect and free from errors.

[Grace Seeker]

And the Bible also contradicts itself with :

"And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening
him."
(Luke 22:43)

He keepeth all his bones, not one of them is broken."
(Psalm 34:20)

If the bones of a victim were to be protected from harm, then they could only be of benefit if the person was ALIVE! For a person, already dead, intact bones mean nothing. Whether theyare sawed into pieces, or smashed into smithereens, it will not make any difference to the resurrected body, the spirit or the ghost

". . . angels who had said that he was ALIVE!" - Luke 24:23. Did not say,
"resurrected" but the actual word uttered by the angels was "ALIVE!"


28. MARY MAGDALENE TESTIFIES -
". . . they heard that he was ALIVE, and had been seen by her, they believed
not." - (Mark 16:11): Mary did not vouch for a spook, or ghost or spirit of
Jesus but a LIVE Jesus. What they could not believe was that the Master was
ALIVE!


"For I am not yet ASCENDED unto my Father."
(John 20:17)
She is not blind. She can see the man standing there before her. What does he mean by "notyet ascended" - GONE UP - when he was DOWN right there? He is, in fact, telling her thathe is not RESURRECTED from the DEAD, but ALIVE!"

"And they (the disciples), when they heard that he was ALIVE, and had
been seen by her (Mary Magdalene), they BELIEVED NOT."
(Mark 16:11)


"And they (the disciples), when they heard that he was ALIVE, and had
been seen by her (Mary Magdalene), they BELIEVED NOT."


"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I am
the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and
bones, as you see me have.
. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet Luke 24:39-40

Luke 24:41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?"

Luke 24:43 and He took it and ate it before them


To prove what? That he is RESURRECTED that he is the same living Jesus .

I don't see a one of these contradicting the message that Jesus was crucified.

Yes, most certainly Jesus is seen as alive later. But that doesn't mean he wasn't crucified. THE message of all four gospels is clear: Jesus was crucified, dead and buried. That should be the end of the story, at least it is with most people. But it isn't with Jesus. Why not? Becuase, as each of the gospels go on to report, not only did Jesus die, but he was also raised to life again from the dead. This phrase "from the dead" is used by every New Testament writer, save James and Jude, as a way of referring to Jesus.

The New Testament obviously offers a different account with regard to Jesus' life than the Qur'an does -- no doubt a reason that Muslims don't accept the Christian scriptures as valid, and vice versa. So, I can understand a Muslim wanting to argue that they don't believe the story of Jesus life, death, and subsequent resurrection as presented in the Bible. But it stretches the imagination to understand how one can argue that the Bible doesn't present Jesus as having been crucified when it is one of the clearest and most repeated statements of the entire Bible.

[Grace Seeker]

evry body says he was not put on da cross

You're working from a very small sample or limited field of reference if everybody you have contact with says that he was not put on the cross.

[Supreme]

As brother air force posted a few of the many contradictions in the bible it astounds me as to how people can accept it's authenticity and take what it says to be true. Don't these errors raise doubts about the validity of the bible? :S wouldn't a book from god be perfect and free from errors.

The Bible is a group of books written over hundreds of years by numerous different authors regarding history, letters, songs, poems, prophesies, gospels, and even revelations. I challenge you to find any other book written by so many people about so many things over a long period of time with its length that isn't free of contradictions.

[tango92]

^explain the sisters point. how can God allow there to be contradictions in his inspired works?

[Predator]

The Bible is a group of books written over hundreds of years by numerous different authors regarding history, letters, songs, poems, prophesies, gospels, and even revelations. I challenge you to find any other book written by so many people about so many things over a long period of time with its length that isn't free of contradictions.

I am not suprised that they arent free from contradictions as they have been written by people and not by God alone the way quran is , as the below verse proves

Holy Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Quran with care
Had it been from anyone other than Allah
They would have found therein many a discrepancy

[mkh4JC]

^explain the sisters point. how can God allow there to be contradictions in his inspired works?

Most of the issues bought up as 'contradictions' are just translation errors. Other circumstances arise when people take what an author says out of context.

[Supreme]

I am not suprised that they arent free from contradictions as they have been written by people and not by God alone the way quran is , as the below verse proves

And that's just the point. We don't believe the Bible is written by God at all. The Bible itself never makes such a bold claim, nor to many Christian apologists argue that. We don't honestly believe God sits down and writes a book, that is the work of man, and man has almost certainly made mistakes, as is part of the definition of being human.

explain the sisters point. how can God allow there to be contradictions in his inspired works?

Um, because it's written by man?

[Predator]

Most of the issues bought up as 'contradictions' are just translation errors. Other circumstances arise when people take what an author says out of context.

Which ones are translation mistakes and which ones are out of context ?

101 Clear Contradictions in the Bible

Shabir Ally


1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)


2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?

Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
4. God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
Three (I Chronicles 21:12)
5. How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)
6. How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?

Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)
Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)
7. How long did he rule over Jerusalem?

Three months (2 Kings 24:8)
Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)
8. The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?

Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8)
Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)
9. When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?

After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)
Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)
10. How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?

Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)
Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)
11. When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture?

One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4)
Seven thousand (I Chronicles 18:4)
12. How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?

Forty thousand (I Kings 4:26)
Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25)
13. In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die?

Twenty-sixth year (I Kings 15:33 - 16:8)
Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1)
14. How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple?

Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2)
Three thousand three hundred (I Kings 5:16)
15. Solomon built a facility containing how many baths?

Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26)
Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5)
16. Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab?

Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6)
Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11)
17. How many were the children of Zattu?

Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8)
Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13)
18. How many were the children of Azgad?

One thousand two hundred and twenty-two (Ezra 2:12)
Two thousand three hundred and twenty-two (Nehemiah 7:17)
19. How many were the children of Adin?

Four hundred and fifty-four (Ezra 2:15)
Six hundred and fifty-five (Nehemiah 7:20)
20. How many were the children of Hashum?

Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:19)
Three hundred and twenty-eight (Nehemiah 7:22)
21. How many were the children of Bethel and Ai?

Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:28)
One hundred and twenty-three (Nehemiah 7:32)
22. Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows:

29,818 (Ezra)
31,089 (Nehemiah)
23. How many singers accompanied the assembly?

Two hundred (Ezra 2:65)
Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67)
24. What was the name of King Abijahs mother?

Michaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah (2 Chronicles 13:2)
Maachah, daughter of Absalom (2 Chronicles 11:20) But Absalom had only one daughter whose name was Tamar (2 Samuel 14:27)
25. Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem?

Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40)
No (Joshua 15:63)
26. Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary?

Jacob (Matthew 1:16)
Hell (Luke 3:23)
27. Jesus descended from which son of David?

Solomon (Matthew 1:6)
Nathan(Luke3:31)
28. Who was the father of Shealtiel?

Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12)
Neri (Luke 3:27)
29. Which son of Zerubbabel was an ancestor of Jesus Christ?

Abiud (Matthew 1: 13)
Rhesa (Luke 3:27) But the seven sons of Zerubbabel are as follows: i.Meshullam, ii. Hananiah, iii. Hashubah, iv. Ohel, v.Berechiah, vi. Hasadiah, viii. Jushabhesed (I Chronicles 3:19, 20). The names Abiud and Rhesa do not fit in anyway.
30. Who was the father of Uzziah?

Joram (Matthew 1:8)
Amaziah (2 Chronicles 26:1)
31. Who was the father of Jechoniah?

Josiah (Matthew 1:11)
Jeholakim (I Chronicles 3:16)
32. How many generations were there from the Babylonian exile until Christ?

Matthew says fourteen (Matthew 1:17)
But a careful count of the generations reveals only thirteen (see Matthew 1: 12-16)
33. Who was the father of Shelah?

Cainan (Luke 3:35-36)
Arphaxad (Genesis II: 12)
34. Was John the Baptist Elijah who was to come?

Yes (Matthew II: 14, 17:10-13)
No (John 1:19-21)
35. Would Jesus inherit Davids throne?

Yes. So said the angel (Luke 1:32)
No, since he is a descendant of Jehoiakim (see Matthew 1: I 1, I Chronicles 3:16). And Jehoiakim was cursed by God so that none of his descendants can sit upon Davids throne (Jeremiah 36:30)
36. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on how many animals?

One - a colt (Mark 11:7; cf Luke 19:3 5). And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it.
Two - a colt and an ass (Matthew 21:7). They brought the ass and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon.
37. How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?

By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)
His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)
38. Where did Jesus first meet Simon Peter and Andrew?

By the sea of Galilee (Matthew 4:18-22)
On the banks of river Jordan (John 1:42). After that, Jesus decided to go to Galilee (John 1:43)
39. When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus daughter already dead?

Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, My daughter has just died.
No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, My little daughter is at the point of death.
40. Did Jesus allow his disciples to keep a staff on their journey?

Yes (Mark 6:8)
No (Matthew 10:9; Luke 9:3)
41. Did Herod think that Jesus was John the Baptist?

Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16)
No (Luke 9:9)
42. Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?

Yes (Matthew 3:13-14)
No (John 1:32,33)
43. Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism?

Yes (John 1:32, 33)
No (Matthew 11:2)
44. According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness?

If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true (John 5:3 1)
Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true (John 8:14)
45. When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day?

Yes (Matthew 21:12)
No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark I 1:1- 17)
46. The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once?

Yes. (Matthew 21:19)
No. It withered overnight (Mark II: 20)
47. Did Judas kiss Jesus?

Yes (Matthew 26:48-50)
No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12)
48. What did Jesus say about Peters denial?

The cock will not crow till you have denied me three times (John 13:38)
Before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times (Mark 14:30) . When the cock crowed once, the three denials were not yet complete (see Mark 14:72). Therefore prediction (a) failed.
49. Did Jesus bear his own cross?

Yes (John 19:17)
No (Matthew 27:31-32)
50. Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn?

Yes (Matthew 27:50-51; Mark lS:37-38)
No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit! And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46)
51. Did Jesus say anything secretly?

No. I have said nothing secretly (John 18:20)
Yes. He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him Why do you speak to them in parables? He said, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given (Matthew 13: 1 0-11)
52. Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion?

On the cross (Mark 15:23)
In Pilates court (John 19:14)
53. The gospels say that two thieves were crucified along with Jesus. Did both thieves mock Jesus?

Yes (Mark 15:32)
No. One of them mocked Jesus, the other defended Jesus (Luke 23:43)
54. Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion?

Yes. He said to the thief who defended him, Today you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43)
No. He said to Mary Magdelene two days later, I have not yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17)

55. When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice?

Yes (Acts9:7)
No (Acts22:9)

56. When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground?

Yes (Acts 26:14)
No (Acts 9:7)
57. Did the voice spell out on the spot what Pauls duties were to be?

Yes (Acts 26:16-18)
No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts9:7;22: 10)
58. When the Israelites dwelt in ****tin they committed adultery with the daughters of Moab. God struck them with a plague. How many people died in that plague?

Twenty-four thousand (Numbers 25:1 and 9)
Twenty-three thousand (I Corinthians 10:8)
59. How many members of the house of Jacob came to Egypt?

Seventy souls (Genesis 4 & 27)
Seventy-five souls (Acts 7:14)
60. What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus?

He bought a field (Acts 1: 18)
He threw all of it into the temple and went away. The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5)
61. How did Judas die?

After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5)
After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18)
62. Why is the field called Field of Blood?

Because the priests bought it with the blood money (Matthew 27:8)
Because of the bloody death of Judas therein (Acts 1:19)
63. Who is a ransom for whom?

The Son of Man came...to give his life as a ransom for many (Mark 10:45). Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all... (I Timothy 2:5-6)
The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the faithless for the upright (Proverbs 21:18)
64. Is the law of Moses useful?

Yes. All scripture is... profitable... (2 Timothy 3:16)
No. . . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness... (Hebrews 7:18)
65. What was the exact wording on the cross?

This is Jesus the King of the Jews (Matthew 27:37)
The King of the Jews (Mark 15:26)
This is the King of the Jews (Luke 23:38)
Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews (John 19:19)
66. Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist?

Yes (Matthew 14:5)
No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20)
67. Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve?

Thaddaeus (Matthew 10: 1-4; Mark 3:13 -19)
Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Lukes gospel (Luke 6:12-16)
68. Jesus saw a man sitat the tax collectors office and called him to be his disciple. What was his name?

Matthew (Matthew 9:9)
Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27)
69. Was Jesus crucified on the daytime before the Passover meal or the daytime after?

After (Mark 14:12-17)
Before. Before the feast of the Passover (John 1) Judas went out at night (John 13:30). The other disciples thought he was going out to buy supplies to prepare for the Passover meal (John 13:29). When Jesus was arrested, the Jews did not enter Pilates judgment hail because they wanted to stay clean to eat the Passover (John 18:28). When the judgment was pronounced against Jesus, it was about the sixth hour on the day of Preparation for the Passover (John 19:14)
70. Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion?

Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42)
No. (John 12:27)
71. In the gospels which say that Jesus prayed to avoid the cross, how many times did he move away from his disciples to pray?

Three (Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42)
One. No opening is left for another two times. (Luke 22:39-46)
72. Matthew and Mark agree that Jesus went away and prayed three times. What were the words of the second prayer?

Mark does not give the words but he says that the words were the same as the first prayer (Mark 14:3 9)
Matthew gives us the words, and we can see that they are not the same as in the first (Matthew 26:42)
73. What did the centurion say when Jesus dies?

Certainly this man was innocent (Luke 23:47)
Truly this man was the Son of God (Mark 15:39)
74. When Jesus said My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me ? in what language did he speak?

Hebrew: the words are Eloi, Eloi ..(Matthew 27:46)
Aramaic: the words are Eloi, Eloi .. (Mark 15:34)
75. According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he died?

Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit! (Luke 23:46)
"It is finished" (John 19:30)
76. When Jesus entered Capernaum he healed the slave of a centurion. Did the centurion come personally to request Jesus for this?

Yes (Matthew 8:5)
No. He sent some elders of the Jews and his friends (Luke 7:3,6)
77.

Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17)
Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5)
78.

God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3)
Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16)
79. Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven?

No (John 3:13)
Yes. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven (2 Kings 2:11)
80. Who was high priest when David went into the house of God and ate the consecrated bread?

Abiathar (Mark 2:26)
Ahimelech, the father of Abiathar (I Samuel 1:1; 22:20)
81. Was Jesus body wrapped in spices before burial in accordance with Jewish burial customs?

Yes and his female disciples witnessed his burial (John 19:39-40)
No. Jesus was simply wrapped in a linen shroud. Then the women bought and prepared spices so that they may go and anoint him [Jesus) (Mark 16: 1)
82. When did the women buy the spices?

After the Sabbath was past (Mark 16:1)
Before the Sabbath. The women prepared spices and ointments. Then, on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment (Luke 23:55 to 24:1)
83. At what time of day did the women visit the tomb?

Toward the dawn (Matthew 28: 1)
When the sun had risen (Mark 16:2)
84. What was the purpose for which the women went to the tomb?

To anoint Jesus body with spices (Mark 16: 1; Luke 23:55 to 24: 1)
To see the tomb. Nothing about spices here (Matthew 28: 1)
For no specified reason. In this gospel the wrapping with spices had been done before the Sabbath (John 20: 1)
85. A large stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb. Where was the stone when the women arrived?

They saw that the stone was Rolled back (Mark 16:4) They found the stone rolled away from the tomb (Luke 24:2) They saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb (John 20:1)
As the women approached, an angel descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and conversed with the women. Matthew made the women witness the spectacular rolling away of the stone (Matthew 28:1-6)
86. Did anyone tell the women what happened to Jesus body?

Yes. A young man in a white robe (Mark 16:5). Two men ... in dazzling apparel later described as angels (Luke 24:4 and 24:23). An angel - the one who rolled back the stone (Matthew 16:2). In each case the women were told that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5 footnote)
No. Mary met no one and returned saying, They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him (John 20:2)
87. When did Mary Magdelene first meet the resurrected Jesus? And how did she react?

Mary and the other women met Jesus on their way back from their first and only visit to the tomb. They took hold of his feet and worshipped him (Matthew 28:9)
On her second visit to the tomb Mary met Jesus just outside the tomb. When she saw Jesus she did not recognize him. She mistook him for the gardener. She still thinks that Jesus body is laid to rest somewhere and she demands to know where. But when Jesus said her name she at once recognized him and called him Teacher. Jesus said to her, Do not hold me... (John 20:11 to 17)
88. What was Jesus instruction for his disciples?

Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me (Matthew 2 8: 10)
Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God (John 20:17)
89. When did the disciples return to Galilee?

Immediately, because when they saw Jesus in Galilee some doubted (Matthew 28:17). This period of uncertainty should not persist
After at least 40 days. That evening the disciples were still in Jerusalem (Luke 24:3 3). Jesus appeared to them there and told them, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high (Luke 24:49). He was appearing to them during forty days (Acts 1:3), and charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise ... (Acts 1:4)
90. To whom did the Midianites sell Joseph?

To the Ishmaelites (Genesis 37:28)
To Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh (Genesis 37:36)

91. Who brought Joseph to Egypt?

The Ishmaelites bought Joseph and then took Joseph to Egypt (Genesis 37:28)
The Midianites had sold him in Egypt (Genesis 37:36)
Joseph said to his brothers I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt (Genesis 45:4)
92. Does God change his mind?

Yes. The word of the Lord came to Samuel: I repent that I have made Saul King... (I Samuel 15:10 to 11)
No. God will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent (I Samuel 15:29)
Yes. And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel (I Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions:

i. The Lord was sorry that he made man (Genesis 6:6)

I am sorry that I have made them (Genesis 6:7)

ii. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people (Exodus 32:14).

iii. (Lots of other such references).

93. The Bible says that for each miracle Moses and Aaron demonstrated the magicians did the same by their secret arts. Then comes the following feat:

Moses and Aaron converted all the available water into blood (Exodus 7:20-21)
The magicians did the same (Exodus 7:22). This is impossible, since there would have been no water left to convert into blood.

94. Who killed Goliath?

David (I Samuel 17:23, 50)
Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19)

95. Who killed Saul?

Saul took his own sword and fell upon it.... Thus Saul died... (I Samuel 31:4-6)
An Amalekite slew him (2 Samuel 1:1- 16)
96. Does every man sin?

Yes. There is no man who does not sin (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810)
No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1). We should be called children of God; and so we are (I John 3: 1). He who loves is born of God (I John 4:7). No one born of God commits sin; for Gods nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (I John 1:8)

97. Who will bear whose burden?

Bear one anothers burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2)
Each man will have to bear his own load (Galatians 6:5)
98. How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection?

Twelve (I Corinthians 15:5)
Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:3 3)
99. Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?

After his baptism, the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ... (Mark 1:12-13)
Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee - two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)
100. Was baby Jesus life threatened in Jerusalem?

Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)

101. When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond?

They worshipped him, saying, Truly you are the Son of God (Matthew 14:33)
They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened (Mark 6:51-52)

[Predator]

man has almost certainly made mistakes, as is part of the definition of being human

So , Why believe in something that isnt credible ?

[tango92]

your not getting it. how can this book serve as a guidance for you if you have to pick and choose which verses to believe and which to ignore.

youve already admitted there are contradictions (admitedly it wasnt a big step) this means at least one verse of two contradicting verses is wrong. how can god leave you in a position like this?

[Supreme]

So , Why believe in something that isnt credible ?

Just because something contains contradictions, it doesn't mean it isn't credible.

[tango92]

Most of the issues bought up as 'contradictions' are just translation errors. Other circumstances arise when people take what an author says out of context.

gimme a break. have you even read the bible? even your scholars admit there are contradictions in the bible. ive seen learned christians having studied the bible and its language stand up and say they have 'no explanation' for some contradictions in the bible'

and i can link you the video if your not scared to watch it.

[Predator]

Just because something contains contradictions, it doesn't mean it isn't credible.

As tango said how can this book serve as a guidance for you if you have to pick and choose which verses to believe and which to ignore .

Here is an example

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die

1 Peter 2:21-25

He (Jesus) Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; .

[Grace Seeker]

Airforce, tango92, M.I.A., KittenLover:

Since you are all debating other issues, and NOT the thread topic of Jesus crucifixion, shall we close the thread with your concession that indeed the Bible clearly says that Jesus was crucified?

And if you are not willing to conceed that, will you please return to that discussion and save these miscellaneous distractions you keep interjecting for some other thread.

[glo]

Airforce, tango92, M.I.A., KittenLover:

Since you are all debating other issues, and NOT the thread topic of Jesus crucifixion, shall we close the thread with your concession that indeed the Bible clearly says that Jesus was crucified?

And if you are not willing to conceed that, will you please return to that discussion and save these miscellaneous distractions you keep interjecting for some other thread.

Perhaps this is a good time to plug the old 'Questions about Christianity thread'!

[mkh4JC]

gimme a break. have you even read the bible? even your scholars admit there are contradictions in the bible. ive seen learned christians having studied the bible and its language stand up and say they have 'no explanation' for some contradictions in the bible'

and i can link you the video if your not scared to watch it.

Yes, I read the Bible pretty much every morning and every night. I've read the New Testament all the way through, many, many times, and I'm currently in Ezekiel of the Old Testament, reading it all the way through for the first time.

I'm not saying that there aren't passages that are hard to grapple over, even Peter said in his writings that the writings of Paul were hard to grasp, I'm just saying that a lot of instances peoples conclusions are based off of the wrong context, and that there are also translation errors. Also, the Bible is not written for the sceptic, but for the believer.

Which ones are translation mistakes and which ones are out of context ?

101 Clear Contradictions in the Bible

Shabir Ally


1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

Ok, I'll try to answer some of these. But just keep in mind that I'm not a Biblical scholar by any means and I don't have all the answers. Just of note people have made lists like this for the Quran too.

In terms of the above, let's see:

'And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.' II Samuel 24: 1.

'These are the sons of Israel, Rueben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Issachar, and Zebulon,' I Chronicles 1: 2. The second passage doesn't say anything about Satan.

2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?

Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
4. God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
Three (I Chronicles 21:12)
5. How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)
6. How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?

Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)
Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)
7. How long did he rule over Jerusalem?

Three months (2 Kings 24:8)
Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)
8. The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?

Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8)
Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)

The way I've heard this explained is that the Hebrew lettering is very similar so translation errors creep in. This doesn't effect doctrine however.

9. When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?
After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)

Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)

Here's what it says:

'And the king and his men went unto Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shal not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.' II Samuel 5: 6.

'And the ark of God remained with the family of Obed edom in his house three months. And the Lord blessed the house of obed edom, and all that he had.' I Chronicles 13: 14. The two verses don't even align.

10. How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?

Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)
Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)

In Chapter 6 verse 19 we see this: 'Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.' So he did follow the commandment.

Michaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah (2 Chronicles 13:2)
Maachah, daughter of Absalom (2 Chronicles 11:20) But Absalom had only one daughter whose name was Tamar (2 Samuel 14:27)

Well, maybe there are two men named Absalom.

[Supreme]

Airforce, tango92, M.I.A., KittenLover:

Since you are all debating other issues, and NOT the thread topic of Jesus crucifixion, shall we close the thread with your concession that indeed the Bible clearly says that Jesus was crucified?

And if you are not willing to conceed that, will you please return to that discussion and save these miscellaneous distractions you keep interjecting for some other thread.

Indeed, their contention is with Biblical contradictions, not the fact that the Bible does indeed mention Christ's crucifixion.

[maisha]

is this discussion happening becuase of me because im getting confused and im new to the forum so i dont understand wat is happnin! :S

[maisha]

i THINK i got an e-mail from diss fedos but i got confused so i really dont get what is

happening! im really confused!! :S :S

[tango92]

honestly it doesnt mater to me what you people think anymore.

As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

quran 2:6

[Supreme]

honestly it doesnt mater to me what you people think anymore.

I was never under the impression it mattered to you what I thought in the first place.

[Grace Seeker]

is this discussion happening becuase of me because im getting confused and im new to the forum so i dont understand wat is happnin! :S

This is your first post in this thread. Why would you think that any of the previous discussion happened because of you?

[Predator]

I don't see a one of these contradicting the message that Jesus was crucified.

Yes, most certainly Jesus is seen as alive later. But that doesn't mean he wasn't crucified. THE message of all four gospels is clear: Jesus was crucified, dead and buried. That should be the end of the story, at least it is with most people. But it isn't with Jesus. Why not? Becuase, as each of the gospels go on to report, not only did Jesus die, but he was also raised to life again from the dead. This phrase "from the dead" is used by every New Testament writer, save James and Jude, as a way of referring to Jesus.

Jesus is supposed to have been on the cross for three hours and his legs and bones were not broken . According to the system in vogue, no man could die by crucifixion in so short a time ,The crucifixion is a slow lingering death unlike hanging a man, drowning a man etc which kills a man so soon which he would mean that he survived


And after the crucifixion Mary Magdalene alone (Mark 16:9 and John 20:1)
visited the tomb of Jesus.
The question arises: "Why did she go there?" "TO ANOINT HIM", Mark 16:1 tells us andThe second question is: "Do Jews massage dead bodies after 3 days?" The answer is "No!" "Do the Christians massage dead bodies after 3 days?" The answer is again, "No!" Do the Muslims (who are the nearest to the Jews in their ceremonial laws) massage dead bodies after 3 days?
And the answer is again, "No!" Then why should a Jewess want to massage a dead, decaying body after 3 days? We know that within 3 hours rigor mortis sets in - the stiffening of thebody after death. In 3 days time, the body would be fermenting from within - the body cells
would be breaking up and decomposing. If anyone rubs such a decaying body, it will fall topieces. Does the rubbing make sense? No!
It would, however, make sense if she was looking for a LIVE person. You see, she was aboutthe only person besides Joseph of Arimathe'a and Nicodemus who had given the final rites tothe body of Jesus. If she had seen any sign of life in the limp body of Jesus when he was takendown from the cross, she was not going to shout, "HE IS ALIVE!" She returns after 2 nights and
a day, when the Jewish Sabbath had passed, to take care of Jesus.

STONE REMOVED - WINDING SHEETS UNWOUND
She was sorely amazed to find on arrival, that somebody had already removed the stone and,on peeping into the tomb, she finds that the winding sheets (shroud) were folded up inside.More questions arise? "Why was the stone removed?" Because for a resurrected body, onewhich had conquered death, it was not necessary for the stone to be removed for it to get
out, nor was it necessary for the winding sheets to be unwound for it to move. Because, for a spiritualised body: "STONE WALLS DO NOT A PRISON MAKE, NOR IRON BARS A CAGE." The removal of the stone and the unwinding of the winding sheets was the need of aphysically resuscitated body, not that of a resurrectedbody! The empty tomb was an
anti-climax to what she had expected! So the hysterical woman (Jesus had had to cast out of her "seven devils" - Mark 16:9) breaks down and sobs. Jesus was all the while watching her from the vicinity - not from heaven, but from earth.Jesus is there! He is watching this woman. He knows who she is, and he knows why she is
there. He approaches her from behind, and finds her crying. So he asks her:

"Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? - (John 20:15). Before she replies,
allow me to interject: "Why does he ask what appears to be silly questions? Doesn't he knowthe obvious reasons? Of course he does! Then why the silly questions?"The answer is that in reality they are not silly questions, though they appear to be so. Heknows that this woman is looking for him, and she is disappointed on not finding him; hence the weeping. But he also knows that because of his heavy disguise she would not be able to
recognise him. So metaphorically speaking he is pulling her leg. In describing this incidentJohn, referring to Mary Magdalene, says: "She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him". Now why should she suppose that he is a gardener? Do resurrected personslook like "gardeners"? No!! Then why does she suppose him to be a gardener? Because he is disguised as a GARDENER! Why is he disguised as a gardener? Because he is afraid of the
Jews! Why is he afraid of the Jews? Because he did not die and did not conquer death! Ifhe had died, and if he had conquered death, then he would not be afraid anymore. Why not?
Because a resurrected body cannot die twice! Who says so? The Bible says so. Where? In the

Book of Hebrews 9:27. It says:
". . . it is ordained unto all men ONCE to die, and after that the
judgement."

You cant die twice

BACK FROM THE DEAD ????


But what about the hundreds of people who have come back from the "dead"? We read about them daily in our newspapers.

Those persons who were certified dead, by medical men, and who subsequently came back to life; were not really DEAD, in the sense of DEATH AND RESURRECTION. Our Doctors have erred and will continue to make mistakes; it cannot behelped. newspaper reporter in each case is telling us, very subtly, that the "DEAD" was not really dead. That the "CORPSE" was not really a corpse, and that the "CRUCIFIXIONS" were not
really crucifixions but cruci-fictions! They were SO-CALLED dead, the SO-CALLED corpse,the SO-CALLED crucifixions, etc. But from the newspaper circulation point of view, the word"SO-CALLED" would greatly diminish the sensationalism, lessen the news value, and reduce
possible sales. After all business is business! Hence the inverted commas ". . ." In actual fact,no man ever dies twice. No matter how many death certificates are issued.

THE DRAMA CONTINUES
Mary supposing the disguised Jesus to be a gardener, says unto him:
"Sir, if you have taken HIM hence, tell me where have you laid HIM . . .
(John 20:15)
She is not looking for a corpse, for "it". She is looking for a LIVE person, for "HIM". And further, she wants to know as to "where have you 'LAID' him?" (i.e. To rest, to relax, to
recuperate!) NOT, "where have you BURIED him?"
"So that I might take HIM away."
(John 20:15)
Take HIM away, where? What would she want with a dead (?), decomposing body? She couldonly bury it. Who dug the grave? Carrying a corpse is one thing for an American Super-woman, but another for this frail Jewess; carrying a corpse of at least a hundred and sixty
pounds. That weight plus another 100 pounds of medicants (according to John 19:39) wouldmake a neat load of 260 pounds. Carrying would be one thing, but burying? She would haveto dump it in a hole! Does it make any sense?The prank that Jesus was playing upon this woman had gone too far. The woman had notbeen able to see through the disguise yet and Jesus was "laughing under his breath", but could restrain himself no longer. He blurts
out: "M-A-R-Y!" Only the one word! But it was enough. This one word, "Mary!" did what allthe exchange of words failed to do. It enabled Mary to recognise her Master. Everyone has his or her unique and peculiar way of calling one's nearest and dearest. It was not the mere utterance of the word "Mary", but its deliberate intonation which made her respond: "Master! Master!". Mad with happiness, she lunges forward to grab her Master, to pay reverence.

Jesus says,
"Touch me not!"
(John 20:17)
SOBERING QUESTIONS
Why not? Is he a bundle of electricity, a dynamo, that if she touches him, she might get electrocuted? No! "Touch me not!", because it would hurt. Though he appears normal to all intents and purposes, he had, nevertheless, been through a violent, physical and emotionalordeal. It would be excruciatingly painful if he allowed her any enthusiastic contact. Jesus continues:

"For I am not yet ASCENDED unto my Father."
(John 20:17)
She is not blind. She can see the man standing there before her. What does he mean by "notyet ascended" - GONE UP - when he was DOWN right there? He is, in fact, telling her thathe is not RESURRECTED from the DEAD. he is saying: "I AM NOT DEAD YET!" - He is saying: "I AM ALIVE!"

[Predator]

Just because something contains contradictions, it doesn't mean it isn't credible.

But it stretches the imagination to understand how one can argue that the Bible doesn't present Jesus as having been crucified when it is one of the clearest and most repeated statements of the entire Bible.

It might be repeated statement but when they can be easily refuted just like the other below statements of your bible than it doesnt make it credible even if repeated several times

“Scientific evidence” number 1

The Bible says the earth was created in six days (Genesis 2:1) [In case apologetics think that the 6 days constitute epochs or periods of time instead of 24 hour days, let them consider Genesis 1:3 where day and night + morning and evening are clearly mentioned]

Scientific response
Modern science in geology and physics have calculated that the earth was created in the time span of MILLIONS of years and not simply six 24 hour days. Even a non-scientist can see that it’s ridiculous to suggest that the earth came into being in only six 24 hour days as even the smallest of plants take quite sometime to grow.


“Scientific Evidence” number 2
The Bible says that there was light on the first day of creation:
“And God said,”Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God seperated light from darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.” (Genesis 1:3-5)

Yet, the source of light itself i.e. the sun was created not until the FOURTH day! (Genesis1:14)

To reconcile the apparent scientific anomaly, apologetics have tried to suggest that the “Light” spoken in Genesis 1:3-5 is a spiritual light or some other light besides that emanated by the sun to the earth. A simple observation and reading of the verses in question will prove otherwise. Verse 5, “And there was evening and there was morning, the first day” is quite revealing and shows that IT IS INDEED SPEAKING about the LIGHT GIVEN TO EARTH which brings about night and day which is due to the SUN!

Scientific Response
Day and night on earth exists due to the rotation of the earth and the existence of the Sun and the Moon.


“Scientific evidence” number 3
The Bible says that plants formed on the third day of creation:
“And God said,”Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth.” And it was so.”(Genesis 1:11)

Yet, the Sun which is one of the basic components required for complex seed formation was only created on the fourth day!(Genesis 1:14)

Scientific Response
Plants require the Sun to go through a process known as photosynthesis for growth.


“Scientific Evidence” number 4
The Bible says that animals were created before man. (Genesis 1:24-27)
Yet, in Genesis 2:7 it mentions that man was first created and only in verse 19 were animals created.
Scientific Response
Logically and reasonably, animals were created before humans so that the latter may survive on the former.

“Scientific Evidence” number 5
The Bible says that trees were created before man. (Genesis 1:11-12 and 26-27)
Yet, in Genesis 2:4-9 it says man was created before trees.

Scientific Response
Trees were created prior to humans as the existence of trees in supplying oxygen is crucial for the existence of other creatures including man.

“Scientific Evidence” number 6
The Bible gives a lucid picture of the earth being flat. It is little wonder that many Christian figures of ancient times actually believed the earth was flat such as Lactantius, Severian of Gabala, Cosmas Indicopleustes and others.

“And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)

“that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it” (Job 38:13)

“The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth.”(Daniel 4:11)

Which tree is taller than the Petronas Twin Towers in Malaysia? Can the people in Europe see the Petronas Twin Towers from Europe even when the towers are so bloody high? It’s silly to even suggest such a thing.

“Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them” (Matthew 4:8)

The verses in Daniel and Matthew gives an idea that if you went high up enough you can see the whole wide world. The earth is geo-spherical which means that even if one were to go to the Moon one will still not be able to see the whole world together at once. The only way is if the world was flat. Now, compare this notion with “o whom then will ye liken God? ….It is he that sits upon the circle (chuwg) of the earth (Isaiah 40:18-23 ). If the earth can be seen from an exceedingly high summit as suggested by Matthew 4:8 and Daniel 4:11 and then in Isaiah it says the world is a circle, then the shape of the earth as given by these verses is a huge COIN! Is the earth’s shape like that of a coin? I don’t think so.

Scientific Response
Duh…even 7 year olds know the earth is a globe!

“Scientific Evidence” number 7
The Bible says the earth does NOT move!
“The Lord is king. He is clothed wit majesty and strength, The earth is set firmly in place and cannot be moved.” (psalms 93:1)

“Say among the nations,”The Lord reigns.” The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the people with equity.”(Psalms 96:10)

“tremble before him, all the earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.”( 1st Chronicles 16:30)

Scientific Response
The earth does move i.e. rotate and cricle around the sun in its orbit. It also moves along with the whole galaxy to a point in the universe.

“Scientific Evidence” number 8
The Bible says the earth has foundations that support it:
The earth has no foundation (Job 26:7). However, this is contradicted by 1st Samuel 2:8 and Job 9:6 where it clearly says Earth sits upon pillars.
Scientific Response
The earth is not supported by pillars but by what is known as gravity suspending it on what is known as an orbit.

“Scientific Evidence” number 9
The Bible says that the heaven i.e. sky has got pillars!
“The pillars of heaven tremble, and are astonished at his reproof.”(Job 26:11)
Scientific Response
What hogwash! Even a doofus can see that the sky does not have pillars supporting it.

“Scientific Evidence” number 10
The Bible says that the earth will last forever in Ecclesiastes 1:4 but in 2 Peter 3:10 it says that the earth will be destroyed.
Scientific Response
There are many ways the earth can be destroyed and indeed it will be destroyed. What is certain is that when the sun extinguishes and that is inevitable the earth and everything else in the galaxy will be destroyed along with it.

“Scientific Evidence” number 11
The Bible says that embryos are fashioned like cheese!
“Remember, I beseech thee, that thou has fashioned me as clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again! Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? Thou has clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews.” (Job 10:9-11)

The idea that embryology is fashioned like cheese is strikingly identical with what Aristotle said in his book “On the Generation of Animals.”(page 64-65). Yet, Christian apologists and missionaries have the audacity to accuse the Qur’an of having plagiarised Greek philosophies.

Scientific Response:
Babies are not made like cheese. Stop drinking!


Conclusion

These are but a few examples of many UNSCIENTIFIC and not credible teachings in the Bible

[Grace Seeker]

Airforce, what is the point of your last two posts? Neither of them provides any basis on which to deny that the Bible presents Jesus as having been crucified, in fact the passages used in your first of the two posts assumes it to have been so.

You do realize that a supposed refutation that Jesus was crucified is NOT the same as a refutation that the Bible says that he was crucified? It is merely calling the Bible itself into question, but the testimony of the Bible stands. The OP's video claimed that from the Bible he could refute that Jesus was crucified because the Bible clearly says Jesus was not crucified. He failed miserably in the endeavor. If you now seek to embark on a new endeavor of refuting the validity of the Bible's claims that Jesus was crucified, you must begin that by admitting that the Bible does indeed claim that Jesus was crucified or there is nothing to refute.

So, yes or no, do you admit that the Bible does indeed claim that Jesus was crucified?

[Predator]

So, yes or no, do you admit that the Bible does indeed claim that Jesus was crucified?

It does says both crucified and as well as alive . Contradictions just like how it said the earth is flat but infact it is scientifically proven that it is round .

And Jesus is trying to prove to his people that he has survived the cross and that he is alive

Would you believe

1. The words of Jesus
2 Bible

[Grace Seeker]

It does says both crucified and as well as alive . Contradictions just like how it said the earth is flat but infact it is scientifically proven that it is round .

And Jesus is trying to prove to his people that he has survived the cross and that he is alive

Would you believe

1. The words of Jesus
2 Bible

I don't see any place in the Bible where Jesus is trying to prove that he survived the cross. On the contrary, it presents him as having died and been resurrected. That is an entirely different thing.

[Al-manar]

I don't see any place in the Bible where Jesus is trying to prove that he survived the cross.

And I dont see any place in the Quran where Jesus is trying to prove that he survived after being crucified !!

Such Shallow discussion (from the Muslims part) ,is to be expected when it begins with a flawed introduction and wrong methodology by DR Zakir Naik ( I highly respect his arguments but not that one), the discussion has gone far to another flawed argument (Though been crucified,he survived)!.....


and who knows may be some next posts one would argue that the bible says clearly that Juda was crucified instead of Jesus !......

The lesson to be learned here,is whenever you dont follow what the Quran tells ,you wouldnt be convincing in whatever discussion with a christian you may have......

The verse (they killed him not, nor crucified him) makes the argument that Jesus survived after being on the cross ,a waste of time....


and the first argument in the video,what is he trying to say?
to provide some NT material that would negate the death of Jesus by crucifiction,according to the NT narratives?

no way for that ...

simply that is not what the Quran tells about such issue .....

the quran negates the crucifiction and provides us with sufficint reasons

It doesnt tell ,that we should go the the gospel putting the burden of the negation of crucifiction proofs on our shoulders ,as the one who asserts is the one who has to prove....

what is the prove for crucifiction?

some writings by some men...


crucifiction (and the other NT claims)stands or falls on the trustworthy of the gospel writers and the consistency,inerrancy of their narratives...


What is the Quranic opinion of such writers?


1- They followed a form of the conjecture after the sudden absence of Jesus from the scene

4:157 they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

Have they erred? Are they to be blamed?
absolutely not

If they lived and died believing that the life of their teacher terminted that way....

If they taught such misinformation to their seed and generation after generation .. there is none to blame them ,and there is nothing that would bother God for a minute of their continuous believe of such trivial thing...


The pain begins when such writers did the following:

Holy Quran 6:93 Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against Allah, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none.

Holy Quran Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price! - Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.


Holy Quran 5:41 O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places.


they claimed inspiration and made the wild claim that the death of Jesus has significance with regard to salvation...


The best methodology to refute the crucifiction narratives is the Quranic one:

1- The narratives is based on conjectures, clues?
the contradictions therin.

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/2maze92.html

2- The narrators themselves are untrustworthy as they clearly used to change the words from their (right) times and places,clues?

http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=c...html&Itemid=27

Any christian who have a word to rebut such material,just join me in such thread.

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...8-injil-6.html

Still we need after all that a non Quranic swoon or substitution theory, or NT reference that Jesus didnt die on the cross to negate the crucifiction?

I dont think so...

simply the proofs that the gospel writers and their writings are unworthy of trust,are overwhelming....

Though I criticized Dr Naiks methodology in such specific matter,but no doubt he is a great scholar and thinker....
just watch his debate with Dr William Cambell, to know what mentality the man has....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v1TT...eature=related


A final word to the muslims ,before you convince the non-muslims be honest and convince yourself first....

and remember, if one reflects well,the Quran has always the answer....

peace for all

[Supreme]

And I dont see any place in the Quran where Jesus is trying to prove that he survived after being crucified !!

Jesus says stuff in the Quran? Where?

Anyway, this thread is about the Bible. Do you concede that the Bible does indeed say Jesus was crucified?

what is the prove for crucifiction?

some writings by some men...

What is proof of any historical event?

Some writings by some men...

The past exists through records and memories; seeing as there is no one alive today who was alive in the time of Jesus, that leaves only records about Him, or as you bluntly put it: 'some writings by some men'.

The verse (they killed him not, nor crucified him) would put the argument that Jesus survived after being on the cross ,to shame....

The fact that the Quran hasn't been brought into the discussion is because we are talking about the Bible, and also no Christian sees the Quran as authorative.

[Al-manar]

Jesus says stuff in the Quran? Where?

Where did I say that Jesus says stuff in the Quran,regarding the crucifiction?!!!

Anyway, this thread is about the Bible. Do you concede that the Bible does indeed say Jesus was crucified?

It seems you read my post in a hurry ...The Bible says not only Jesus died by means of crucifiction but also tries to make the cliam that his death has significance to the issue of salvation....

but Just because the Bible said it, doesn't make it necessarily so.

The fact that the Quran hasn't been brought into the discussion is because we are talking about the Bible, and also no Christian sees the Quran as authorative.

Once you read my previous post carefully ,you will soon realize why It was neccesary to quote the Quran....

The past exists through records and memories; seeing as there is no one alive today who was alive in the time of Jesus, that leaves only records about Him

Quoting from a work(especially the religious one) is fruitless unless you first prove the book is valid, truthful and reliable. I provided in the thread I refered to,some of evidence the Bible fails this test.

your input is welcome there,though.

Regards

[Supreme]

Quoting from a work(especially the religious one) is fruitless unless you first prove the book is valid, truthful and reliable

.

Indeed. And how does one determine the reliability of a source? Through provenance, audience and content of course.

provided in the thread I refered to,some of evidence the Bible fails this test.

I wouldn't say that. The Bible contains some of the most (in fact, the most) reliable accounts of Jesus, the prophets and the early church in existence. Without it, we certainly wouldn't have a clue about anything to do with the early Abrahamic religions.

[Predator]

I don't see any place in the Bible where Jesus is trying to prove that he survived the cross. On the contrary, it presents him as having died and been resurrected. That is an entirely different thing.

Jesus was not resurrected because Jesus saying in Luke 20:36 "They cannot die any more for they are equal angels" proves the resurrected will have to be first equal into angels (angelised) in qualities in order to be immortalized. However, Jesus was not equal unto angels (angelised) in qualities as Jesus never appeared and disappeared as angels do after he came out the tomb according to Acts 1:3 " He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God." Hence, Jesus was not immortalized and was not resurrected.

1) Jesus saying after he came out from the tomb to the disciples in Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet it is I myself" proves Jesus was physical, so Jesus was not resurrected because the Bible in 1 Corinthians 15:50 says "Physical bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God" New Living Translation.

2) Jesus saying after he came out from the tomb to the disciples in Luke 24:39 "For a spirit has no flesh and bones" proves Jesus was not spirit, so Jesus body was not a body of the spirit, so his body was not spiritual, so Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected body will be spiritual not physical as Jesus was physical after he rose according to 1 Corinthians 15:44 "They are buried as natural human bodies, but they are raised as spiritual bodies" (New Living Translation)

3) Jesus eating after he came out from the tomb according to Luke 24:43 then John 21:15 does not just prove Jesus was flesh , but also blood, so Jesus was not resurrected because "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" in 1 Corinthians 15:50.

[Grace Seeker]

I don't think you understand what resurrection means. It is not resuscitation and it is not reincarnation. It means that a person was actually dead, physically dead, and that this same person was brought back to life, physical life. Comments on the nature of what the eschatalogical resurrection of the dead at the end of time will be like (which is what the passages you quote are referring to) are not really relevant to discusing the nature of Jesus' resurrection.

[Predator]

I don't think you understand what resurrection means.

No it looks like you're one who cant understand . Resurrected bodies as per your bible are spiritual bodies with no flesh and bones.
Jesus was not resurrected ,therefore the disciple could hold him and Jesus could eat the food .Spiritual Bodies cannot do that.

Comments on the nature of what the eschatalogical resurrection of the dead at the end of time will be like (which is what the passages you quote are referring to) are not really relevant to discusing the nature of Jesus' resurrection

.

Yeah i was talking about the eschatalogical resturrection and Jesus' soul didnt depart from his body , so he didnt die and he was merely UNCONSCIOUS or clinically pronounced dead by error when he was actually alive just like these cases

Those persons who were certified dead, by medical men, and who subsequently came back to life; were not really DEAD, in the sense of DEATH AND RESURRECTION. The Doctors have erred and will continue to make mistakes; it cannot behelped. In actual fact,no man ever dies twiceand the same has happened to Jesus when he was expected to be dead , he is alive.

And according to your Bible ,No Man dies twice

Book of Hebrews 9:27. It says:
". . . it is ordained unto all men ONCE to die, and after that the
judgement

[mkh4JC]

No it looks like you're one who cant understand . Resurrected bodies as per your bible are spiritual bodies with no flesh and bones.
Jesus was not resurrected ,therefore the disciple could hold him and Jesus could eat the food .Spiritual Bodies cannot do that.

You misunderstand. Those who are resurrected in Christ can eat. In Revelation the marriage supper of the Lamb is mentioned:

Revelation 19:7-9
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

When the Bible says this:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. I Corinthians 15: 44.

It is talking about our natural, corrupted, fallen bodies that we presently have inheriting the kingdom. When the rapture of the Church happens, God will resurrect all those saints who died in Christ and the Old Testament saints and give them new, uncorrupted, spiritual bodies.

[Predator]

[QUOTE]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. I Corinthians 15: 44.

It is talking about our natural, corrupted, fallen bodies that we presently have inheriting the kingdom. When the rapture of the Church happens, God will resurrect all those saints who died in Christ and the Old Testament saints and give them new, uncorrupted, spiritual bodies [QUOTE]

Jesus said told his disciple " A spirit has no flesh and bones as you see I have " so if Jesus was raised from the dead , he would be raised a spiritual body as per the verse you quoted and that DIDNT happen , he has flesh and bones , so he didnt die but survived

Another reason to prove that Jesus didnt die is that Jesus himself foretold that the miracle of Jesus would be that of Jonah

Matthew 12:40 >>

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The miracle of Jonah was that when we expected him to be dead in the belly of the whatever ( because of suffocation and heat , 3 days without food and water) , he came out alive and so similarly when Jesus was expected to be dead in the earth , he would comes out alive and fulfil the miracle

[mkh4JC]

Jesus said told his disciple " A spirit has no flesh and bones as you see I have " so if Jesus was raised from the dead , he would be raised a spiritual body as per the verse you quoted and that DIDNT happen , he has flesh and bones , so he didnt die but survived

Again, you misunderstand. When Jesus was referring to a spirit in that instance, he was talking about evil spirits, devils or demons, who don't have bodies, which is what the disciples mistook him for.

Matthew 12:40 >>
Another reason to prove that Jesus didnt die is that Jesus himself foretold that the miracle of Jesus would be that of Jonah The miracle of Jonah was that when we expected him to be dead in the belly of the whatever ( because of suffocation and heat , 3 days without food and water) , he came out alive and so similarly when Jesus was expected to be dead in the earth , he would comes out alive and fulfil the miracle

Jesus says he will be in the heart (center) of the earth for three days. This was the miracle he was referring to:

'Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.'

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)' Ephesians 4: 8-10.

[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

[27] "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

[29] "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

[30] " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

[31] "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Luke 16: 19-31.

'And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.' Matthew 27: 52-53.

So then the miracle is that Jesus did indeed die, he descended into the center or lower parts of the earth (where hell is currently, and where paradise used to be), delivered those people who were the Lord's (ie the Old Testament saints) who were in paradise out of the center of the earth, and raised them to the third heaven, where God is.

[Predator]

Again, you misunderstand. When Jesus was referring to a spirit in that instance, he was talking about evil spirits, devils or demons, who don't have bodies, which is what the disciples mistook him for.

Jesus mentioned " a spirit" without mentioning whether its good or bad ,and a spirit means any spirit .

This was the miracle he was referring to:

He has clearly mentioned Jonah

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah."

And his miracle was when we expected him to die in whales belly , he was alive

Whatever verses you have quoted have no connection whatsoever to Jonah

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

well well, Mr or miss Apple.
Your not doing much of goood job are you aye ?
Heres the real Verse "The Real verse!"

English Yusuf Ali: [4:157]
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
English Muhsin Khan: [4:157]
And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) 4:157 An Nissa

[Predator]

LOL ,as Gosammer said in the other thread we are going to have fun wiping the floor with you!

[mkh4JC]

Jesus mentioned " a spirit" without mentioning whether its good or bad ,and a spirit means any spirit .

It didn't mean any spirit. The disciples were affrighted because they thought it was an evil spirit. Evill spirits, or devils, or demons don't have bodies, that is how they possesses people.

[mkh4JC]

Also, I've already shown through the book of Revelation that we as Christians when the Rapture happens that we will be able to eat, ie the marriage supper of the Lamb.

[Predator]

It didn't mean any spirit. The disciples were affrighted because they thought it was an evil spirit. .

So by your logic ,if Jesus is possesed by an evil spirit , Jesus would have behaved in an evil manner but that's not what happened. There were terrified because they thought he was a Ghost ( he had risen from the dead) because they thought that he was killed on the cross

[mkh4JC]

So by your logic ,if Jesus is possesed by an evil spirit , Jesus would have behaved in an evil manner but that's not what happened. There were terrified because they though he was a Ghost ( he had risen from the dead) because they thought that he was killed on the cross

He did die on the cross, and the Bible teaches this. To say that it doesn't, is to flat out just to deny what scripture says.

'And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.' St. John 20: 26-29.

He says, blessed are they that have not seen, and yet believed. Believed what? That he died and rose again.

[Predator]

Believed what?

Believed that he fulfilled the miracle of Jonah which he said he would fulfill , Jonah was alive after coming out from the whales belly and so has Jesus is alive after coming from the earth belly ,which is why his body still has flesh and bones like a natural body and he can be touched


If he was dead and raised from the dead or resurrected , he would have had a spiritual body and he would say " I am a spirit and have no flesh and bones , thou cant touch me and i cant eat food "

[mkh4JC]

Believed that he fulfilled the miracle of Jonah which he said he would fulfill , Jonah was alive after coming out from the whales belly and so has Jesus is alive after coming from the earth belly ,which is why his body still has flesh and bones like a natural body and he can be touched


If he was dead and raised from the dead or resurrected , he would have had a spiritual body and he would say " I am a spirit and have no flesh and bones , thou cant touch me and i cant eat food "

Well, I've already shown through quotes from the book of Revelation that Christians who are resurrected during the Rapture of the Church will be able to eat:

Revelation 19:7-9
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

As the Bible says, there is a natural body (fallen, corrupt, current bodies we possesses here on earth) and there is a spiritual body (uncorrupted, supernatural bodies in heaven). Those who die in Christ don't have their resurrected bodies yet though, so that would probably explain that verse you mentioned.

[Al-manar]

[QUOTE=Airforce;1274952]

The miracle of Jonah was that when we expected him to be dead in the belly of the whatever ( because of suffocation and heat , 3 days without food and water) , he came out alive and so similarly when Jesus was expected to be dead in the earth , he would comes out alive and fulfil the miracle

Dear Airforce....

There is Arabic proverb


لكل فارس كبوة ... ولكل عالم هفوة

for every knight a fall, for every scholar an error... (may be a native English speaker would provide A similar proverb in better English?)

I find such proverb related to the work you quotin.....

every great scholar once would err.... and I think that Ahmed Deedat followed nonQuranic methodology in the work you use right now...


Ahmed Deedat(may Allah bless his soul and reward him for his huge efforts for Islam) has approached the issue of crucifiction wrongly:

while he correctly followed the quranic test of a book claimed to be divine

Holy Quran:4:82
Do they not ponder on the Qur'an?Had it been from other than Allah,they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.


he wrote in accordance:

No I dare humbly claim that such unattested documents would be thrown out of hand, in any Court-of-Law, in any civilised country, in just two minutes.

yet he ignores such advice and continue quoting the narratives ,arguing as if the narratives to be accepted ,it is just the christians misunderstood it !!

He argues that Jesus was crucified ,injured,stayed in tomb days ,recovered then back to his disciples !!

Is that Quranic?

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157


so which should we believe the Quran, or a theory based on speculations?!




I would just quote one piece of such work which based on nonQuranic theory,to show what it would lead to:

Then why does Jesus need to belabour the point? It is simply because the disciples were thinking that he had returned from the dead, that he had been resurrected, and if so he would be in a spiritual form — A SPIRIT! And Jesus is telling them that he is NOT that — he is not a spirit — NOT resurrected!

So we should trust the narratives?

if so then Jesus is said to be claimed that he rose from the dead in the immediate context:


Luke 24:36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 37They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." 40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence. 44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, .


Have you seen? If one won't follow the Quran in his arguments ,he would go nowhere .....


I don't believe that Jesus was crucified ,neither resurrected ,why?

not because the bible says that Jesus wasn't crucified (Zakir naik's approach) nor because the bible says that he was crucified but not died on the cross(Deedat's approach).....,but because the source from which the story is told has failed the test of inerrancy......

eg, to harmonize the resurrection has been and will be the impossible dream for the christian apologetics.... they invented theory after theory in order to harmonize the story but no way......

another example to put serious doubts on such narratives ,I have just typed.....

This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day


where is it written that the promised Jewish messiah will be resurrected from the dead AFTER THREE DAYS?


Regards

[Al-manar]

LOL ,as Gosammer said in the other thread we are going to have fun wiping the floor with you!

Take it easy with the guy ,dear Muslims :statisfie

we shouldn't offend him ,but to show him with proofs where he erred...
Iwas going to show him a liguestic analysis of the verse ,in such thread but it was closed....


anyway plz tolerate the guy's ignorance of Arabic and don't mock him just cause he misinterpreted a verse.....

peace for all

[جوري]

Surah Al-Fajr 1 CONSIDER the daybreak 2 and the ten nights!1 3 Consider the multiple and the One!2 4 Consider the night as it runs its course!3 5 Considering all this - could there be, to anyone endowed with reason, a [more] solemn evidence of the truth?4 6 ART THOU NOT aware of how thy Sustainer has dealt with [the tribe of] 'Ad,5 7 [the people of] Iram the many-pillared, 8 the like of whom has never been reared in all the land? - 9 and with [the tribe of] Thamud,6 who hollowed out rocks in the valley? - 10 and with Pharaoh of the [many] tent-poles?7 11 [It was they] who transgressed all bounds of equity all over their lands, 12 and brought about great corruption therein: 13 and therefore thy Sustainer let loose upon them a scourge of suffering: 14 for, verily, thy Sustainer is ever on the watch! 15 BUT AS FOR man,8 whenever his Sustainer tries him by His generosity and by letting him enjoy a life of ease, he says, "My Sustainer has been [justly] generous towards me";9 16 whereas, whenever He tries him by straitening his means of livelihood, he says, "My Sustainer has disgraced me!"10 17 But nay, nay, [O men, consider all that you do and fail to do:] you are not generous towards the orphan, 18 and you do not urge one another to feed the needy,11 19 and you devour the inheritance [of others] with devouring greed, 20 and you love wealth with boundless love! 21 Nay, but [how will you fare on Judgment Day,] when the earth is crushed with crushing upon crushing, 22 and [the majesty of] thy Sustainer stands revealed,12 as well as [the true nature of] the angels, rank upon rank? 23 And on that Day hell will be brought [within sight]; on that Day man will remember [all that he did and failed to do]: but what will that remembrance avail him? 24 He will say, "Oh, would that I had provided beforehand for my life [to come]!" 25 For, none can make suffer as He will make suffer [the sinners] on that Day, 26 and none can bind with bonds like His.13 27 [But unto the righteous God will say,] "O thou human being that hast attained to inner peace! 28 Return thou unto thy Sustainer, well-pleased [and] pleasing [Him]: 29 enter, then, together with My [other true] servants - 30 yea, enter thou My paradise!" 1 The "daybreak" (fajr) apparently symbolises man's spiritual awakening; hence, the "ten nights" is an allusion to the last third of the month of Ramadan, in the year 13 before the hijrah, during which Muhammad received his first revelation (see introductory note to surah {96}) and was thus enabled to contribute to mankind's spiritual awakening. 2 Lit., "the even and the odd" or "the one": i.e., the multiplicity of creation as contrasted with the oneness and uniqueness of the Creator (Baghawi, on the authority of Sa'id ibn al-Khudri, as well as Tabari in one of his alternative interpretations of the above phrase). The concept of the "even number" implies the existence of more than one of the same kind: in other words, it signifies every thing that has a counterpart or counterparts and, hence, a definite relationship with other things (cf. the term azwaj in 36:36, referring to the polarity evident in all creation). As against this, the term al-watr - or, in the more common (Najdi) spelling, al-witr - primarily denotes "that which is single" or "one" and is, hence, one of the designations given to God - since "there is nothing that could be compared with Him" (112:4) and "nothing like unto Him" (42:11). 3 An allusion to the night of spiritual darkness which is bound to "run its course" - i.e., to disappear - as soon as man becomes truly conscious of God. 4 Lit., "a [more] solemn affirmation" (qasam): i.e., a convincing evidence of the existence and oneness of God. 5 See {7:65-72}, and particularly the second half of note [48] on 7:65. Iram, mentioned in the next verse, seems to have been the name of their legendary capital, now covered by the sands of the desert of Al-Ahqaf. 6 See surah {7}, notes [56] and [59]. The "valley" referred to in the sequence is the Wadi 'l-Qura, situated north of Medina on the ancient caravan route from South Arabia to Syria. 7 For an explanation of this epithet, see surah {38}, note [17]. 8 The above phrase, introduced by the particle fa-amma ("But as for..."), obviously connects with the reference to the "solemn evidence of the truth" in verse {5} - implying that man does not, as a rule, bethink himself of the hereafter, being concerned only with this world and what promises to be of immediate advantage to him (Zamakhshari, Razi, Baydawi). 9 I.e., he regards God's bounty as something due to him (Razi). 10 I.e., he regards the absence or loss of affluence not as a trial, but as an evidence of divine "injustice" - which, in its turn, may lead to a denial of God's existence. 11 I.e., "you feel no urge to feed the needy" (cf. 107:3). 12 Lit., "[when] thy Sustainer comes", which almost all of the classical commentators understand as the revelation (in the abstract sense of this word) of God's transcendental majesty and the manifestation of His judgment. 13 See note [7] on {73:12-13}.

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By the way.. where is A'ad and Thamud mentioned in your bible idolater?

What is that? not there? yeah.. I thought so!

why don't you scurry to your cesspool and see if you can concoct some more manure to feed on!

all the best

[Predator]

He argues that Jesus was crucified ,injured,stayed in tomb days ,recovered then back to his disciples !!

Yeah , but He was trying to prove it from the Biblical perspective and with Jesus words rather than the Quran because the Christians dont believe in the below verse nor the quran

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157

And the next verse is that , it was made to appear to them so - wa laakin shubiha lahum , in other words ,they saw him crucified on the cross

I don't believe that Jesus was crucified ,neither resurrected ,why?

not because the bible says that Jesus wasn't crucified (Zakir naik's approach) nor because the bible says that he was crucified but not died on the cross(Deedat's approach).....,but because the source from which the story is told has failed the test of inerrancy.....

So is this what you believe happened regarding "But it was made to appear to them so " ,that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place

The time was near at hand and Taynoos or Judas as he is known in the Bible, accompanied by the Roman soldiers made his way to the place where Jesus was offering his prayer. Judas instructed the soldiers to remain outside and entered the room alone. However, before Tatynoos entered the room, Allah in His Mercy, sent the Arch Angel Gabriel to take Jesus up through the skylight to the heavens so when Tatynoos entered the room, the room was empty.

When Judas entered the room his appearance was miraculously transformed to resemble that of Jesus, however, he was unaware of his transformation and when he couldn't find Jesus he went outside to tell the soldiers he was not there and was set upon. Many of the soldiers had seen and heard Prophet Jesus preach, and had no doubt that Judas was actually Jesus. Judas protested violently and a state of confusion ensued whereupon several soldiers entered and searched the room for Judas but they were unable to find him. . Despite Judas' protest that he was not Jesus he was taken away and later crucified in place of Prophet Jesus, praise be to Allah.

[Grace Seeker]

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157

Airforce seems to hold (in some of his previous posts) that to say that one is crucified is to say that he is actually killed by the process of hanging on a cross. Do you agree with that definition? Or... would you allow, as apparently Deedat does, that to say that one is crucified means that they have been put on a cross, but that such a person could be taken down from the cross before death and while they would be alive (never dead) that it could still correctly be said of them that they were crucified?

Please note: I'm asking here only about your definition of the term "crucified" and not what happened with regard to Jesus in particular.

[Ramadhan]

Airforce seems to hold (in some of his previous posts) that to say that one is crucified is to say that he is actually killed by the process of hanging on a cross. Do you agree with that definition? Or... would you allow, as apparently Deedat does, that to say that one is crucified means that they have been put on a cross, but that such a person could be taken down from the cross before death and while they would be alive (never dead) that it could still correctly be said of them that they were crucified?

Please note: I'm asking here only about your definition of the term "crucified" and not what happened with regard to Jesus in particular.

I could see (and any other sane person would also be to do so) that Airforce was trying to show that there are contradictions in the bible about the matter of the crucifixion/death/resurrection of Jesus pbuh by using the bible own accounts, and to show that the bible gives indications that Jesus pbuh did not die and did not get resurrected.

As for muslims, it is very clear what we believe in, as it is explained without a doubt in the Qur'an.

It is the bible which is confused with itself.

[Grace Seeker]

and any other sane person would also be to do so

Are you directing this comment at any particular person or group of people on this forum?

[Grace Seeker]

"But it was made to appear to them so " ,that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place

Is this what you believe, that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place? If this is your belief, on what do you basis it? I don't believe you will find this anywhere in the Qur'an.

[Ramadhan]

Is this what you believe, that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place? If this is your belief, on what do you basis it? I don't believe you will find this anywhere in the Qur'an.

This is what I believe:

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157

[Grace Seeker]

This is what I believe:

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157

Yes, naidamar, I suspected you were willing to stick to what the Qur'an actually says. That question was for Airforce. He seems to suggest that he believes something beyond simply that which is taught in the Qur'an. A most interesting position for one who criticizes the "corruption" of Christianity because he believes it to teach other things than what the prophet Isa taught.

My question to you involves your definition of what it means to be crucified? Does the process have to result in death for it to be called crucifixion, or is the fact that one is hung on a cross (but are rescued from it before death) enough to say that an individual has been crucified?

[Supreme]

So is this what you believe happened regarding "But it was made to appear to them so " ,that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place

May I ask, as I have often wondered, what do Muslims think of this? God gaves Judas the looks of Jesus and had him crucified- only to, seven hundred years later, when Christianity was already one of the largest religions in the world, admit He'd made a mistake and He'd deliberately misled a whole group of people to believing that Jesus was crucified when He actually wasn't?

[Predator]

Is this what you believe, that Judas the traitor was given the likeness of Jesus and crucified in his place? If this is your belief, on what do you basis it? I don't believe you will find this anywhere in the Qur'an.

I didnt say I believe it , I was asking Al Manar if he believes regarding that "But it was made them to appear to them so " that Judas was crucified in the Jesus place as mentioned in Gospel Of Barnabas, which some muslims believe to be a true theory regarding his alleged "crucifixion"

http://www.answering-christianity.co..._crucified.htm

admit He'd made a mistake and He'd deliberately misled a whole group of people to believing that Jesus was crucified when He actually wasn't?

God doesnt make mistakes ,its humans that misunderstand , make mistakes and commit sins and invent pagan theories like the trinity even when Jesus never claimed to be God and said

The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

John 5:30." My father is greater than I , My father is greater than All and I can of my ownself do nothing .
MARK 13:32
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the
angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the
Father."
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. Luke 6:12


But I dont think you would believe that since your "God" is not above mistakes in your bible

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of
man, that he should REPENT . . ." NUMBERS 23:19

Contradicted by:
". . . and the Lord REPENTED that he made Saul king over
Israel." 1 SAMUEL 15:35
Also: "And the Lord REPENTED of the evil which he thought to
do unto his people (Israel)." EXODUS 32:14

for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the
seventh day he rested, and WAS REFRESHED." EXODUS 31:17

[Supreme]

God doesnt make mistakes ,its humans that misunderstand , make mistakes and commit sins and invent pagan theories like the trinity even when Jesus never claimed to be God and said

The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one

John 5:30." My father is greater than I , My father is greater than All and I can of my ownself do nothing .
MARK 13:32
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the
angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the
Father."
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. Luke 6:12


But I dont think you would believe that since your "God" is not above mistakes in your bible

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of
man, that he should REPENT . . ." NUMBERS 23:19

Contradicted by:
". . . and the Lord REPENTED that he made Saul king over
Israel." 1 SAMUEL 15:35
Also: "And the Lord REPENTED of the evil which he thought to
do unto his people (Israel)." EXODUS 32:14

for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the
seventh day he rested, and WAS REFRESHED." EXODUS 31:17

This still hasn't addressed my question. I asked you what you thought about it. I most certainly did not require you to attempt to discredit Christian theology. So I'll repeat the question: What do you think about Judas magically acquiring the looks of Jesus for unexplained reasons only for it to subsequently found a massive religion? Why would God allow Judas to be placed on the cross if he looked like Jesus? I don't quite understand that verse: why would Judas appear like Jesus and all the disciples of Jesus, who had been with Him for His ministry, suddenly 'mistake' Judas for Jesus? Surely they knew what Jesus and Judas looked like?

[aadil77]

This still hasn't addressed my question. I asked you what you thought about it. I most certainly did not require you to attempt to discredit Christian theology. So I'll repeat the question: What do you think about Judas magically acquiring the looks of Jesus for unexplained reasons only for it to subsequently found a massive religion? Why would God allow Judas to be placed on the cross if he looked like Jesus? I don't quite understand that verse: why would Judas appear like Jesus and all the disciples of Jesus, who had been with Him for His ministry, suddenly 'mistake' Judas for Jesus? Surely they knew what Jesus and Judas looked like?

Whatever we say about this does not reflect islamic teachings.

We don't know what officially happened, but if it was made to appear that it was somebody else - it could be because Allah wanted to save prophet Jesus, like he did with musa, ibrahim and many other prophets, I'm not saying all prophets were saved by Allah, thousands were killed at the hands of disbelievers, I'm just giving you an example.

Like the verse says it was made to appear to them, so they thought it was the prophet jesus they killed. This is nothing difficult for god to do.

[Predator]

Or... would you allow, as apparently Deedat does, that to say that one is crucified means that they have been put on a cross, but that such a person could be taken down from the cross before death and while they would be alive (never dead) that it could still correctly be said of them that they were crucified?

.

Right,the act of fixing to the cross is called crucifixion. Crucifxion is not like beheading,drowning and blasting which kills a person instantly . Its a slow death . The Filipinos re-enact these crucifixion on Good friday just for a short while and then they are removed (de-crucified ) from the cross and then they walk away smoking cigarettes,so going by the dictionary its technically correct to say that these person were crucified

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17978154/

When the Quran says that "they didnt kill him and they didnt crucify him" , it means it has ruled out 2 things

1.Crucifxion
2. Death

Thus telling us that Jesus was never put on the cross. According to the Gospel of Barnabas and one hadith ,it was one of the disciple and most probably Judas who was put on the cross

http://www.answering-christianity.or...n_of_judas.htm

[Al-manar]

Peace

Yeah , but He was trying to prove it from the Biblical perspective

I don't think he was trying to prove it from the Biblical perspective ,nor from the Quranic prospective...... he approached it (the In between) approach...

and with Jesus words rather than the Quran

but shouldn't we first get a clue that those were really the words of Jesus?

The Quran affirms that those are not the words of Jesus and tells us about a simple test to support its claims....

And the next verse is that , it was made to appear to them so - wa laakin shubiha lahum , in other words ,they saw him crucified on the cross

They didn't see him or anyone else crucified on the cross ,that is what the Quran tells...

Airforce seems to hold (in some of his previous posts) that to say that one is crucified is to say that he is actually killed by the process of hanging on a cross. Do you agree with that definition? Or... would you allow, as apparently Deedat does, that to say that one is crucified means that they have been put on a cross, but that such a person could be taken down from the cross before death and while they would be alive (never dead) that it could still correctly be said of them that they were crucified?

But they killed him not, nor crucified him. Holy Quran 4: 157

If crucified means killed,then we can rewrite it:

But they killed him not, nor killed him. Holy Quran 4: 157

Is that possible? if the verb (salaba) and alone denotes killing by crucifiction then why to use the other verb (Qatala) (killed)?!!!

I was asking Al Manar if he believes regarding that "But it was made them to appear to them so " that Judas was crucified in the Jesus place as mentioned in Gospel Of Barnabas, which some muslims believe to be a true theory regarding his alleged "crucifixion"

Barnaba's view is based on the common narrations of the book of tafsirs which came from 2 or three sahabi who were jew christian converts, who themselves got such narration from the Gnostic based oral material ......

We don't know what officially happened, but if it was made to appear that it was somebody else, it could be because Allah wanted to save prophet Jesus

and raising him up wouldn't be enough to save him?

and what could be more official than that?

[004:158] On the contrary, ALLAH exalted him to Himself. And ALLAH is Mighty, Wise.


indeed,how truth such proverb:

صواب مهجور خير من خطا شائع

(Abandoned truth better than a common mistake)





كل معلوم من الدين بالضرورة مجمع عليه ، و ليس كل مجمع عليه معلوم من الدين بالضرورة

Regards

[Predator]

They didn't see him or anyone else crucified on the cross ,that is what the Quran tells...

So you are saying that the Jews are simply boasting and they didnt catch and or put someone similar on the cross at all ,so in other words you belive that the below Hadith is fabricated and false

The renowned Muslim commentator Ibn Kathir record a similar tradition

(O you to whom the Dhikr (the Qur'an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man!) When Allah sent `Isa with proofs and guidance, the Jews, may Allah's curses, anger, torment and punishment be upon them, envied him because of his prophethood and obvious miracles; curing the blind and leprous and bringing the dead back to life, by Allah's leave. He also used to make the shape of a bird from clay and blow in it, and it became a bird by Allah's leave and flew. `Isa performed other miracles that Allah honored him with, yet the Jews defied and bellied him and tried their best to harm him. Allah's Prophet `Isa could not live in any one city for long and he had to travel often with his mother, peace be upon them. Even so, the Jews were not satisfied, and they went to the king of Damascus at that time, a Greek polytheist who worshipped the stars. They told him that there was a man in Bayt Al-Maqdis misguiding and dividing the people in Jerusalem and stirring unrest among the king's subjects. The king became angry and wrote to his deputy in Jerusalem to arrest the rebel leader, stop him from causing unrest, crucify him and make him wear a crown of thorns. When the king's deputy in Jerusalem received these orders, he went with some Jews to the house that `Isa was residing in, and he was then with twelve, thirteen or seventeen of his companions. That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep.

Allah sid (And (remember) when Allah said: "O `Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself.'') When `Isa ascended, those who were in the house came out. When those surrounding the house saw the man who looked like `Isa, they thought that he was `Isa. So they took him at night, crucified him and placed a crown of thorns on his head. The Jews then boasted that they killed `Isa and some Christians accepted their false claim, due to their ignorance and lack of reason. As for those who were in the house with `Isa, they witnessed his ascension to heaven, while the rest thought that the Jews killed `Isa by crucifixion. They even said that Maryam sat under the corpse of the crucified man and cried, and they say that the dead man spoke to her. All this was a test from Allah for His servants out of His wisdom. Allah explained this matter in the Glorious Qur'an which He sent to His honorable Messenger, whom He supported with miracles and clear, unequivocal evidence. Allah is the Most Truthful, and He is the Lord of the worlds Who knows the secrets, what the hearts conceal, the hidden matters in heaven and earth, what has occurred, what will occur, and what would occur if it was decreed

[Al-manar]

So you are saying that the Jews are simply boasting and they didnt catch and or put someone similar on the cross at all ,so in other words you belive that the below Hadith is fabricated and false

Peace Bro


the narration you just quoted is not a hadith....

they are narrated from Wahb ibn Munabbih and Qatada , they simply narrated such narrations which they heard before adapting Islam ...but just cause they heard it from Gnostic oral traditions doesn't mean they are true....

those narrations to be rejected:

1- absent from the Quran and hadith Mutawatir, or even Ahaad.

2- contradictory in itself .

3- would Question Allah's wisdom.

4- linguestic factor who would bring it upon its face(details may be in another occasion)..

5- Gnosticism has a theology in general against Islam,so how we would trust what they say regarding crucifiction.

Peace

[Supreme]

Whatever we say about this does not reflect islamic teachings.

We don't know what officially happened, but if it was made to appear that it was somebody else - it could be because Allah wanted to save prophet Jesus, like he did with musa, ibrahim and many other prophets, I'm not saying all prophets were saved by Allah, thousands were killed at the hands of disbelievers, I'm just giving you an example.

Like the verse says it was made to appear to them, so they thought it was the prophet jesus they killed. This is nothing difficult for god to do.

So the Quran simply doesn't provide an answer? Surely if God wanted to make that verse seem more acceptable to Christians, he would at least elaborate and give more than just a brief mention. I also understand how it's possible for God to do it; I just don't understand what incentive He had if all it would do is go on to found a major world religion dissimilar from Islam.

[Grace Seeker]

Whatever we say about this does not reflect islamic teachings.

We don't know what officially happened, but if it was made to appear that it was somebody else - it could be because Allah wanted to save prophet Jesus, like he did with musa, ibrahim and many other prophets, I'm not saying all prophets were saved by Allah, thousands were killed at the hands of disbelievers, I'm just giving you an example.

Like the verse says it was made to appear to them, so they thought it was the prophet jesus they killed. This is nothing difficult for god to do.

The "IF" in your statement is something that I would like to take a closer look at.

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

(translation by Yusuf Ali)

You said:if it was made to appear that it was somebody else

Does the Qur'an actually say that it was somebody else?
No. It only says that they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them.

There is more than one way that a group might believe that they have crucified a person when they indeed did not.
1) They were mistaken about who it was they crucified. I.e., someone was crucified, but it wasn't Jesus.
2) They were mistaken about there being anyone actually crucified at all. I.e., rather than substituting another person in Jesus' place, God caused the people to "see" what they wanted to see, but the reality is that it was all a figment of their imagination. (BTW, while I would seriously doubt this to be a credible explanation, it makes every bit as much sense to me as the explanation that they actually crucified Judas but God caused them to see Jesus' face.)
3) They might be correct about the facts of the person being crucified, but wrong with regard to whom they assign the responsibility for the crucifixion being carried out. I.e, Jesus was indeed crucified and the Jews viewed themselves as having accomplished this, but the reality is that the people really responsible for it were the Romans, not the Jews.
4) They might have one definition of crucifixion and the writer another. I.e., it could be that the Jews in question perceived that if a person was put on a cross and appeared to be dead that this meant he was crucified, but it might be that God is saying that though it appears Jesus was killed, the reality is that God brought him back to life and therefore it is wrong for the Jews to say that they either crucified or killed him.


So, given that the Qur'an doesn't spell it out and there is more than one possible way to understand what the passage describes, why is it that Muslims gravitate to the first of these explanations rather than one of the other possibilities?

[aadil77]

Lucky I found this, it might interest you Grace Seeker

Who was the person who was made to resemble ‘Eesa (peace be upon him)?
I have a few question about the one who was crucified instead of Isa (peace be upon him) I have seen in one place saying that the one who betrayed Isa (PBUH) was made to look like Isa and was crucified and I have seen in another place saying that one Isa’s companions volunteered to be crucified instead of Isa. I am confused, can you tell me which one is true?.


Praise be to Allaah.

The Qur’aan states that ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) was not crucified or killed, and that he was lifted up to heaven. There is no text of the Revelation that tells us the details of what happened on the day when that was made to appear to the Jews, but there is a saheeh report from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messiah (peace be upon him) said to those of his companions who were with him in the house: “Which of you will be made to look like me and be killed in my stead, and he will be with me in the same level as me (in Paradise)?” A young man who was one of the youngest of them stood up, and he said to him: “Sit down.” Then he repeated it and that young man stood up again, and he said: “Sit down.” Then he repeated it again and that young man stood up and said, “I (will do it).” He said: “You are the one.” So he was caused to look like ‘Eesa and ‘Eesa was lifted up from a window in the house to heaven. Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Tafseer (4/337), commenting on this report: This is a saheeh isnaad going back to Ibn ‘Abbaas. Similarly it was narrated from more than one of the salaf that he said to them: “Which of you will be made to look like me and be killed in my stead, and he will be my companion in Paradise?” End quote.

Then he (may Allaah have mercy on him) said (4/341): Ibn Jareer favoured the view that all of his companions were made to look like ‘Eesa. End quote. This was mentioned in a report narrated from Wahb ibn Munabbih which was narrated by Ibn Jareer (may Allaah have mercy on him) and quoted by Ibn Katheer (4/337), in which it states that when they surrounded ‘Eesa and his companions and entered upon them, “Allaah made them all appear in the form of ‘Eesa and they said to them, ‘You have bewitched us; send forth to us ‘Eesa or we will kill you all,’ until they sent forth one of their number after ‘Eesa promised Paradise to him, and they took him and crucified him.”

But Ibn Katheer said after that: This is a very strange story. End quote.

He also (may Allaah have mercy on him) said (4/341): Some of the Christians claim that Judas Iscariot – who is the one who led the Jews to ‘Eesa – is the one who was made to look like ‘Eesa so they crucified him, and he said: I am not the one you want, I am the one who led you to him. Allaah knows best what really happened. End quote.

With that, Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) concluded his discussion of this topic: Allaah knows best what really happened.

Knowledge of this matter is of no great benefit; if we needed to know that, our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would have told us.
And Allaah knows best.


Islam Q&A

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/103515/isa

[Grace Seeker]

Lucky I found this, it might interest you Grace Seeker

Thanks, aadil. Though I note what Al-manar said with regard to these stories:

they are narrated from Wahb ibn Munabbih and Qatada , they simply narrated such narrations which they heard before adapting Islam ...but just cause they heard it from Gnostic oral traditions doesn't mean they are true....

So, my question remains: Why is it that Muslims gravitate to the first of these explanations rather than one of the other possibilities?

[aadil77]

Thanks, aadil. Though I note what Al-manar said with regard to these stories:


So, my question remains: Why is it that Muslims gravitate to the first of these explanations rather than one of the other possibilities?

Which explanations? I really don't want to comment anymore as I don't have the knowledge about it.

There isn't much certainty on the matter as even the scholar ibn kathir ends with this

With that, Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) concluded his discussion of this topic: Allaah knows best what really happened

Thats all we really have, the only way we'd know for sure is when the prophet himself descends back to earth

[Grace Seeker]

Which explanations?

I listed four (there may be more) different possiblities that would all fit within the scope of what the Qur'an actually says:

1) They were mistaken about who it was they crucified.
2) They were mistaken about there being anyone actually crucified at all.
3) They might be correct about the facts of the person being crucified, but wrong with regard to whom they assign the responsibility for the crucifixion being carried out.
4) They might have one definition of crucifixion and the writer another.


I'm not asking any one to speculate as to which of these scenarios (or any other one might imagine) actually occurred. You say there isn't much certainty on the matter -- of course not -- we both agree that the Qur'an doesn't actually say. Yet I observe that, on the whole, Muslims do in fact tend to not only speculate, but have strongly held opinions as to what happen. And when they do so they nearly universally gravitate to the first option -- that someone else was crucified in Isa's place -- as their most commonly held way of understanding the passage. Can someone explain to me why that is?

[aadil77]

I'm not asking any one to speculate as to which of these scenarios (or any other one might imagine) actually occurred. You say there isn't much certainty on the matter -- of course not -- we both agree that the Qur'an doesn't actually say. Yet I observe that, on the whole, Muslims do in fact tend to not only speculate, but have strongly held opinions as to what happen. And when they do so they nearly universally gravitate to the first option -- that someone else was crucified in Isa's place -- as their most commonly held way of understanding the passage. Can someone explain to me why that is?

Yes I understand that, I thought the same as I'd heard it from someone else, I think this view has probably just spread amongst muslims and the fact that it doesn't sound hard to believe can make it popular.

[Al-manar]

There is more than one way that a group might believe that they have crucified a person when they indeed did not.

let's interpret the Quran by the Quran,analysing your arguments one by one:


1- They might be correct about the facts of the person being crucified, but wrong with regard to whom they assign the responsibility for the crucifixion being carried out. I.e, Jesus was indeed crucified and the Jews viewed themselves as having accomplished this, but the reality is that the people really responsible for it were the Romans, not the Jews.


we can rule that out completely ,

A- The Holy Quran, 4:157 and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.


If the Roman crucified him why would they differ therin? why would they follow conjecture? what was the conjecture about,to begin with?


B- [005:110] Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.


Allah called the act of protection of Jesus to be favor and bless......

would Allah have let him to the hands of the Roman to do what he protected him from the Jews?!!

Imaginary dialogue :

God: Jesus, Recount My favour to you I did restrain the Children of Israel from violence to you...


Jesus : but I can't forget that day the Romans humilated me, tortured me till death.......


does that make sense?!!!!



2-
They were mistaken about who it was they crucified. I.e., someone was crucified, but it wasn't Jesus.

1- We don't have any authentic proof text for such theory.

2- If they really been decieved by someone had the exact physical appearance of Jesus,and swallowed the trick ,then again the question impose itself ,why would they differ therin? why would they follow conjecture? a man exactly looks like jesus and been crucified and buried,and jesus disappeared from the scene , so what conjecture been there?!!!

may be a conjecture by his disciples that their prophet passed safely ,and someone had the exact looking been excuted instead? but who cares? and who would believe?

would the jews believe their theory about their master and reject what they had seen by their own eyes?


The Holy Quran, 4:157 and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.


3- it could be that the Jews in question perceived that if a person was put on a cross and appeared to be dead that this meant he was crucified, but it might be that God is saying that though it appears Jesus was killed, the reality is that God brought him back to life .


1 - Isn't the act of crucifiction violence? if so God affirms:

I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) [/B]thee

2- again,what was the conjecture and guessing about?

.................................................. ................................

Have we had enough nonQuranic theories and speculations without necessity?
yes , I think so..

now let's read the Quran again and let it interpret itself:


- Jesus came with the message and supported his message validity with miracles,but the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'[005:110]


- the magician must be excuted...

- the hand of God is there and the protection from violence,they killed him not, nor crucified him [004:157]

what happened? [004:158] Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-


his mission was terminated in peace and he rest in the place which God decided it for, in peace...


Jesus as any important figure if disappears suddenly without clues to the masses , would creat a conjecture from every kind and color..

The Holy Quran, 4:157 and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow...


I posted that before :

The absence of Jesus would make them in doubt and be victims to conjecture, just as the absence of famous figures, who have lots of enemies,
I remember once there was conjecture that Ben laden has died, and his friend been killed and some people believed such conjecture and continued believing that till they found new message from him!!!
Had he stayed silent forever, you would find claims as, it was someone else similar to him, who been killed etc......

People followed conjecture after the departure of Jesus :

Some thought he was killed....

Others thought he been substituted on the cross...

Others thought he married Maria Magdalena...
Etc…..


Had the man been killed and been witnessed by his enemies and his friends alike, there wouldn’t had been such disagreement on how his mission terminated !!

The matter, according to the Quran, is conjecture and doubts which been experienced by those who witnessed nothing.

Regards

[Grace Seeker]

Al-manar, I really appreciate the other parts of the Qur'an you brought to bear on this topic. After all, if I want to know why it is that Muslim tend to one answer over another, then having the Qur'an interpret the Qur'an is indeed the preferred way to proceed. So, I sincerely appreciate that you did just that.

But I am confused by part of your answer:

2-
They were mistaken about who it was they crucified. I.e., someone was crucified, but it wasn't Jesus.

1- We don't have any authentic proof text for such theory.

2- If they really been decieved by someone had the exact physical appearance of Jesus,and swallowed the trick ,then again the question impose itself ,why would they differ therin? why would they follow conjecture? a man exactly looks like jesus and been crucified and buried,and jesus disappeared from the scene , so what conjecture been there?!!!

may be a conjecture by his disciples that their prophet passed safely ,and someone had the exact looking been excuted instead? but who cares? and who would believe?

would the jews believe their theory about their master and reject what they had seen by their own eyes?


The Holy Quran, 4:157 and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

It seems to me (though perhaps I misunderstand your meaning) as if you are saying that it is conjecture that anyone was crucified. If that is so, then where does this pervasive theory that I find repeated in these forums come from that another was crucified in Jesus' palce? And why, if it is only conjecture, does this view so stubbornly persist within Islamic circles despite no actual evidence regarding it from the Qur'an?

Thanks again for what you've already shared. I await your reply before asking more questions.

[Al-manar]

where does this pervasive theory that I find repeated in these forums come from that another was crucified in Jesus' palce? And why, if it is only conjecture, does this view so stubbornly persist within Islamic circles despite no actual evidence regarding it from the Qur'an?

.

1- common in the books of tafsirs,just 2 tafsirs questioned it .

2- people always search for what amuses their imagination , putting the likeness of jesus on someone else seems amusing,interesting especially for the eastern people.

3- another factor is the discovery of the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter ,and the gospel of barnaba

both provide the same idea , some muslims mistakenly argued that their discovery would support the theory,while the fact we think that their discovery would damage more and more the credibility of the theory......


as the first is nothing but Gnostic work which can never be called a gospel or a reflection of what the Quran tells about the nature of true christianity and true christians....
and the second ,it is wise to be dealt with as a forgery till it proven otherwise...



Regards

[Predator]

I feel Christians are confused between the definition of Resurrection and Resuscitation

When Jesus raised Lazarus from death by asking God , God just resuscitated and revived him

(d) "And Jesus lifted up his eyes (towards heaven), and said,
Father, I thank thee that THOU HAST HEARD ME.
"And I know that THOU HEAREST ME ALWAYS: but
because of the people which stand by l said (my supplication
aloud), that THEY MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.
"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,
Lazarus, come forth.
"And he that was dead came forth . . ." JOHN 11:41-43
Who then gave life back to Lazarus? The answer is "GOD!" For God
heard the prayer of Jesus, as "always!"

Resurrection : When the hour of your real death(Not the clinical death ,as pronounced by doctors , the doctors have erred and will continue to make mistakes ) arrives , the angel of Death comes and takes our soul from your Body and then your Body decomposes , that doesnt happen in the case of Lazarus and Jesus revived him and NOT resurrected him from death and lazarus died later on

It is mentioned in your bible

Hebrews 9:27 : It is ordained for all men once to die and after that the Judgement ,

Quran 21:35 Every human being is bound to taste death once and We test you [all] through the bad and the good [things of life] by way of trial: and unto Us you all must return.

Only Allah can resurrect the dead people ,( all these bones ) and Allah said he would put back even the end of our fingertips on the day of Judgement

Back on topic Abdullah Kareem in his article has given very good reasons here to believe that it was indeed the traitor Judas who betrayed Jesus was crucified instead as a punishment from God and God saved Jesus from the crucifuxion

http://www.answering-christianity.or...n_of_judas.htm

[Supreme]

Back on topic Abdullah Kareem in his article has given very good reasons here to believe that it was indeed the traitor Judas who betrayed Jesus was crucified instead as a punishment from God and God saved Jesus from the crucifuxion

http://www.answering-christianity.or...n_of_judas.htm

So, despite the Bible having four seperate accounts, each of which mention that Jesus was crucified explicitly, the article searches out Psalms, OT books completely unrelated to Christ's crucifixion and an uncanonical Gnostic Gospel, digging out verses whose interpretation is arguable and completely subjective, and expects this desperation to win over Christians to his side? Seriously?

Also, this Abdullah Kareem can believe whatever he wants about the crucifixion- indeed, it looks like he already has, by using sources completely independent (and therefore almost certainly corrupt, immoral and false!) from the Quran to determine his efforts in proseltyzing to Christians. Fail.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Airforce;

I feel Christians are confused between the definition of Resurrection and Resuscitation

We pray to a God of power and might, we believe all things are possible for God. He created the universe and life from nothing, he can give virgins birth, he can raise the dead, why should we doubt God's power?

In the spirit of praying for a greater faith.

Eric

[Predator]

We pray to a God of power and might, we believe all things are possible for God

You cant be serious about that " all things are possible" especially when he has already failed

JUDGES 1:19

"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drove out the
inhabitants of the mountain; but COULD NOT drive out the
inhabitants of the valley, because they had CHARIOTS OF
IRON."

[Predator]

So, despite the Bible having four seperate accounts, each of which mention that Jesus was crucified explicitly, the article searches out Psalms, OT books completely unrelated to Christ's crucifixion and an uncanonical Gnostic Gospel, digging out verses whose interpretation is arguable and completely subjective, and expects this desperation to win over Christians to his side? Seriously?

Also, this Abdullah Kareem can believe whatever he wants about the crucifixion- indeed, it looks like he already has, by using sources completely independent (and therefore almost certainly corrupt, immoral and false!) from the Quran to determine his efforts in proseltyzing to Christians. Fail.

The only fail is the crucifxion and even the bible prophesizes and proves christ wasnt crucified and the Psalm clearly and indisputably confirms that Jesus never got crucified!

http://www.answering-christianity.co...16_117_118.htm

[Nathaniel]

You cant be serious about that " all things are possible" especially when he has already failed

What translation was that?

Here is better translation (TNIV):

The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron.

[Predator]

The King James version

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Lord "teams up" with Judah and together they couldnt drive out those chariots of iron , so it means basically the Lord and Judah together have failed

[Nathaniel]

The King James version

Lord "teams up" with Judah and together they couldnt drive out those chariots of iron , so it means basically the Lord and Judah together have failed

The KJV, beautiful as it is, is far from the perfect translation. If you continue to read Judges, you will see the YHWH's purposes in Judah losing the battle, and how He could still be "with them" and yet allow them to be defeated.

Judges 2:1-3 clearly shows these purposes:

The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? And I have also said, 'I will not drive them out before you; they will become traps for you, and their gods will become snares to you.' "

First of all, the angel speaks of YHWH's unbreakable covenant with Israel. This is what the phrase "The Lord was with them" means. YHWH is forever faithful to His people. But second, "Yet you have disobeyed me" - YHWH allows Judah to be defeated as is part of the covenant: when Israel obeys YHWH, He protects them and drives out their enemies; when they disobey Him, He removes His protection and does not drive them out.

[Al-manar]

Peace Bro Airforce.... It is nice that you shared that link... I have some notice

The only fail is the crucifxion and even the bible prophesizes and proves christ wasnt crucified and the Psalm clearly and indisputably confirms that Jesus never got crucified!

http://www.answering-christianity.co...16_117_118.htm

Note:

the bible prophesizes and proves christ wasnt crucified

Again the same approach !

I criticized first the approach:

problem:Christians quote the bible to prove a crucifiction.

resolved:Muslims quote the bible to prove that there wasn't crucifiction.


now the writer repeats a similar error:

problem Christians claims that the old testament prophecized the crucifiction.

resolved to find indisputable! old testament prophecies that jesus wasn't crucified !.


such approach is flawed, because again:

1- the burden of proofs lies on him who alledges ,Muslims are not supposed to get old testament prophecies that jesus wasn't crucified ,christians have to do the opposite if they claim...

2- the writer (and those alike) while they tried to find old testament prophecies that jesus wasn't crucified ,they imitiated the mistakes of the new testament writers .....

while the NT writers misapplied the psalms to the crucifiction, the writer misapplied the psalms to the non-crucifiction !!

Instead of questioning the christian misapplication of psalms ,he himself misapllied it !!!


The questions to the way he applied psalms:

1- why do you assume that the psalms is about Jesus,why do you think the language to be prophetic?

2- How many servants,priests,prophets God heard their cries,covered them with protection,calm the fears in their hearts,got them observe with their eyes the punishment of the wicked,heard their prayers and honored them, etc...........

that is exclusive to none,and that is a bad example of prophecy fullfilment.......

Psalms is not the proper book to find either a crucifiction prophecy or non-crucifiction prophecy that(if to be found) would be exclusive to anyone...


The writer (and those who follow the same approach) reminds me of a loving mother who is searching hard for her beloved son while walking by him hand in hand !!


Regards

[Supreme]

The only fail is the crucifxion and even the bible prophesizes and proves christ wasnt crucified and the Psalm clearly and indisputably confirms that Jesus never got crucified!

http://www.answering-christianity.co...16_117_118.htm

Here is the Psalm in its fullness:

He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]

2 I will say [b] of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust."

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare
and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling—
even the LORD, who is my refuge-

10 then no harm will befall you,
no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra;
you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him
and show him my salvation."

Al Manar has addressed this before me, but Christians do not believe this Psalm was written for or about Jesus, rather it is for anyone who puts their faith in the Lord. As states above, the Psalms are never good are trying to disprove the crucifixion, and they are rarely ever specified for who they're talking about. So, in your opinion, do you think Christians will pay more attention to:

1) A Psalm that never mentioned Jesus or tries to disprove His crucifixion and is in fact nothing to do with Jesus? OR
2) 4 seperate Gosepl accounts that unanimously and expicitely state that Jesus' crucifixion was a reality?

[Predator]

2) 4 seperate Gosepl accounts that unanimously and expicitely state that Jesus' crucifixion was a reality?

How are we to take those Gospels seriously trusted because The trial of Jesus is recorded differently in each Gospel and There are two contradictory passages in the New Testament that record Judas’ death. The Gospel of Matthew says Judas hanged himself (27:5), yet the Book of Acts says Judas fell on rocks and his bowels burst open (Acts 1:18).

The tomb was empty and the winding sheets were removed

And on top of that Jesus is telling you that spirit has no flesh and bones now does that mean a spirt has flesh and bones

So Jesus was not resurrected because Jesus saying in Luke 20:36 "They cannot die any more for they are equal angels" proves the resurrected will have to be first equal into angels (angelised) in qualities in order to be immortalized. However, Jesus was not equal unto angels (angelised) in qualities as Jesus never appeared and disappeared as angels do after he came out the tomb according to Acts 1:3 " He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God." Hence, Jesus was not immortalized and was not resurrected.

1) Jesus saying after he came out from the tomb to the disciples in Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet it is I myself" proves Jesus was physical, so Jesus was not resurrected because the Bible in 1 Corinthians 15:50 says "Physical bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God" New Living Translation.

2) Jesus saying after he came out from the tomb to the disciples in Luke 24:39 "For a spirit has no flesh and bones" proves Jesus was not spirit, so Jesus body was not a body of the spirit, so his body was not spiritual, so Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected body will be spiritual not physical as Jesus was physical after he rose according to 1 Corinthians 15:44 "They are buried as natural human bodies, but they are raised as spiritual bodies" (New Living Translation)

Besides if Jesus your supposed "God" was dead for 2 nights and a day , who was running the universe for those 2 nights and a day ? Who ?

[Supreme]

How are we to take those Gospels seriously trusted because The trial of Jesus is recorded differently in each Gospel and There are two contradictory passages in the New Testament that record Judas’ death. The Gospel of Matthew says Judas hanged himself (27:5), yet the Book of Acts says Judas fell on rocks and his bowels burst open (Acts 1:18).

I'd love to know how this disproves the crucifixion. Different accounts do mean conflicting views, especially seeing as the authors had different audiences and had seperate sources. ITV news will provide different coverage on the same event to BBC News. As for the Judas hanging, how does that disprove the crucifixion?

And on top of that Jesus is telling you that spirit has no flesh and bones now does that mean a spirt has flesh and bones

No, when Jesus said spirit has no flesh and bones, believe it or not, He means sporot has no flesh or bones.

So Jesus was not resurrected because Jesus saying in Luke 20:36 "They cannot die any more for they are equal angels" proves the resurrected will have to be first equal into angels (angelised) in qualities in order to be immortalized. However, Jesus was not equal unto angels (angelised) in qualities as Jesus never appeared and disappeared as angels do after he came out the tomb according to Acts 1:3 " He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God." Hence, Jesus was not immortalized and was not resurrected.

This is nothing but trying to link unrelated passages and give them your own meaning, and hence arriving at your own conclusion. Completely different from mine of course, I've actually read the Gospels.

) Jesus saying after he came out from the tomb to the disciples in Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet it is I myself" proves Jesus was physical, so Jesus was not resurrected because the Bible in 1 Corinthians 15:50 says "Physical bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God" New Living Translation.

How can a King be prevented from entering His kingdom when it is He who makes the rules? You don't understand the Christian point of view; we bellieve Jesus is God, albeit in human form. We don't believe He's some sort of prophet that abides by humanity's rules. Anything is possible for God.

) Jesus saying after he came out from the tomb to the disciples in Luke 24:39 "For a spirit has no flesh and bones" proves Jesus was not spirit, so Jesus body was not a body of the spirit, so his body was not spiritual, so Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected body will be spiritual not physical as Jesus was physical after he rose according to 1 Corinthians 15:44 "They are buried as natural human bodies, but they are raised as spiritual bodies" (New Living Translation)

Again, I've already covered this. God can do whatever God wants to do.

Besides if Jesus your supposed "God" was dead for 2 nights and a day , who was running the universe for those 2 nights and a day ? Who ?

This is just stupid; Jesus died, not God who uses Jesus as His human form. God can't die. It was His human flesh that died. Nothing else.

[Al-manar]

I'd love to know how this disproves the crucifixion. Different accounts do mean conflicting views

And the inerrant inspired word of God mustn't have conflicting views :


1-



Matthew 10:16 do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."

These writers were presumably not speaking on their own but were being guided by an omniscient deity, who would have known all of the supporting details of "what had happened." Any errors from any kind, therefore, would not have been the fault of the writers but of the omniscient deity who was allegedly guiding them as they wrote.


The following verse would evaporate the argument, the errant-but-still-the-word-of-God view of the Bible


2 Timothy 3:16-17 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.




2-

witnesses at an accident, unlike what is claimed about the gospel writers, are not claiming inerrancy.

"...but if the witnesses are inspired of God then there is no reason for their disagreeing on anything, and if they do disagree it is a demonstration that they were not inspired...." Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 11, p. 295


3-

That if we assume that the writers were eyewitnesses ,but the fact is that any objective reading to their work one would find out easily that they weren't eyewitness and not describing their testimony ..... we have not once the writer of Mark or the others entering the tomb or speaking with the resurrected jesus etc..... ,actually the so called eyewitnesses Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, Salome, Joanna, Cleopas, the "twelve," Cephas, James, the 500 brethren--none of these left any firsthand testimony of their alleged experiences with the crucified,risen Christ.....


5-

If creeds to be taken through contradictory,hearsay accounts then one should follow the whole world creeds,without using a critical eye,mind to filter what is errant and what is inerrant !...



Regards

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Al-manar;

"...but if the witnesses are inspired of God then there is no reason for their disagreeing on anything, and if they do disagree it is a demonstration that they were not inspired...." Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 11, p. 295

Somehow God had the Bible written in this way, and it has inspired a couple of billion people, the stories have survived two thousand years in spite of all the faults some might find. If God was not behind the Bible then it would have faded into obscurity long ago.

Beyond a doubt, and in spite of all that is said, I still trust that the Bible is the inspired word of God.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[Al-manar]

Greetings and peace be with you Al-manar;
Somehow God had the Bible written in this way, and it has inspired a couple of billion people, the stories have survived two thousand years in spite of all the faults some might find. If God was not behind the Bible then it would have faded into obscurity long ago.


Eric

Greetings and peace be with you Eric

Allow me to disagree with you in that point

the Vedas (the oldest scriptures of Hinduism)which dates back to about
1500–1000 BCE, never faded away ....

The Avesta (the sacred book of Zoroastrianism) which dates back to about 1000 BCE, survived till today.....


etc etc etc.....................


In the spirit of searching for God

Mostafa

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Al-manar; of course I shall allow you to disagree, we shall settle this once and for all, pistols at dawn. :D

Whilst all things are possible for God, I often ponder about the burden he seems to have placed on himself. God gave us commandments to follow, but he created us with the freedom to do anything, and we have the temptation to continuously disobey God.

Some how the same God has inspired me to be a Christian, and you a Muslim. I wonder, did God intend that we should try and change each other, or was his intention that he gave each of us seemingly opposing scriptures to change ourselves.

We each have our scriptures, and I feel we are too stubborn to do things only one way, I feel God chose to give us opposing scriptures. His intentions are that we should still be family and community towards each other despite all our differences.

When you mention other world religions, and their role, your previous quote comes to mind, complete with your word in bold.

Timothy 3:16-17 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

In the spirit of praying to the same God, who hears all our prayers.

Eric

[Grace Seeker]

The King James version



Lord "teams up" with Judah and together they couldnt drive out those chariots of iron , so it means basically the Lord and Judah together have failed

Whether your read it in KJV or some other version isn't important. What you miss is that it is Judah, not the Lord, who fails.

Beyond that, to say that nothing is impossible for God, doesn't mean that there are things that he doesn't do even though he might will them. Every human being has been given free will. And though God wants every human being to worship God and God only, and though God wants every human being to submit to God, yet we know that this does not happen. Now, could God make it so? Most certainly, but then we wouldn't be creators with free will. So, God allows for some things to transpire that are not in accordance with his will, in order that when we do come to him it can truly be said that we freely chose to come to him. And those that do not come to him and are eventually cast into hell, well, they just as freely chose that result also.

[Grace Seeker]

How are we to take those Gospels seriously trusted because The trial of Jesus is recorded differently in each Gospel and There are two contradictory passages in the New Testament that record Judas’ death. The Gospel of Matthew says Judas hanged himself (27:5), yet the Book of Acts says Judas fell on rocks and his bowels burst open (Acts 1:18).

The tomb was empty and the winding sheets were removed

If you want to disprove the crucifixion, this is a much better tactic than those you've adopted before. But you will note that what you have to do is accept that the Bible does clearly say that Jesus was crucified and now you are arguing that the Bible was wrong. You've denied the thesis of the OP, which is that the Bible says that Jesus was not crucified.

If what you want to argue is that despite what the Bible says -- that Jesus was crucified -- that you believe him not to have been, then lets close this thread and begin a new one on that topic.

[Grace Seeker]

And the inerrant inspired word of God mustn't have conflicting views

You're the one claiming that it is inerrant, not me. I believe it is inerrant only with regard to matters of faith and practice. It is neither an inerrant historical treatise nor an inerrant science text. It records what men saw, understood, believed, and their interpretations and recollections of events. In some cases those men were indeed in error, and their reported errors are going to be found within the Bbile.

Matthew 10:16 do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."

These writers were presumably not speaking on their own but were being guided by an omniscient deity, who would have known all of the supporting details of "what had happened." Any errors from any kind, therefore, would not have been the fault of the writers but of the omniscient deity who was allegedly guiding them as they wrote.

The verse in Matthew applies to giving people confidence when they stand before tribunals of judgment and other trials. It does not suggest that God is going to dictate anything with regard to those who wrote the scriptures. As to the process of the writing of the scriptures you and I have very different views as to how that occured. Yours is much more mechanical than mine.

The following verse would evaporate the argument, the errant-but-still-the-word-of-God view of the Bible

2 Timothy 3:16-17 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

I disagree. Scripture does indeed do these things -- it instructs us in righteousness (i.e. holy living), it does not claim anything beyond that, and it is wrong to for you to ask it to do.

witnesses at an accident, unlike what is claimed about the gospel writers, are not claiming inerrancy.

Actually, I don't think that you will find them making that claim. Rather, you will find that they admit to editting their material for a particular purpose:
John -- "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31, NIV).

Luke -- "So many others have tried their hand at putting together a story of the wonderful harvest of Scripture and history that took place among us, using reports handed down by the original eyewitnesses who served this Word with their very lives. Since I have investigated all the reports in close detail, starting from the story's beginning, I decided to write it all out for you, most honorable Theophilus, so you can know beyond the shadow of a doubt the reliability of what you were taught" (Luke 1:1-4, MSG).

Mark -- "A beginning of the good news of Jesus Christ, Son of God. As it hath been written in the prophets...." (Mark 1:1-2a, YLT).

"...but if the witnesses are inspired of God then there is no reason for their disagreeing on anything, and if they do disagree it is a demonstration that they were not inspired...." Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 11, p. 295

If Ingersoll was correct in all things you might have a point, but he isn't and you don't.

actually the so called eyewitnesses Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, Salome, Joanna, Cleopas, the "twelve," Cephas, James, the 500 brethren--none of these left any firsthand testimony of their alleged experiences with the crucified,risen Christ.....

John who entered the empty tomb, who was in the upper room when Jesus entered it, and who had breakfast with the resurrected Jesus by the shore of Lake Galille was most definitely present at Jesus crucifixion. He would write both a gospel account of these events and a letter in which he specifically looks back on these events: [quote] From the very first day, we were there, taking it all in—we heard it with our own ears, saw it with our own eyes, verified it with our own hands. The Word of Life appeared right before our eyes; we saw it happen! And now we're telling you in most sober prose that what we witnessed was, incredibly, this: The infinite Life of God himself took shape before us. We saw it, we heard it, and now we're telling you so you can experience it along with us, this experience of communion with the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. Our motive for writing is simply this: We want you to enjoy this, too. Your joy will double our joy!" (1 John 1:1-4, MSG).

Peter, another who entered the tomb and subsequently saw Jesus several times after his resurrection, also wrote in one of his letters -- "Jesus was raised from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3, MSG). And further, the sermon he preached within weeks of this experience also records his testimony regarding this event:

Acts 2
22b Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
(NIV)

The Biblical testimony remains clear:
1) Jesus was crucified under order of Pontius Pilate by Romans at the bequest of some of the Jews' religious leaders
2) Jesus died on the cross
3) Jesus was buried
4) God raised Jesus bodily from the dead
5) subsequent to that experience Jesus' disciples began tell this story, to worship Jesus, to proclaim him Lord and God, and to encouraged others to do these things as well

Muslims (and others) may disagree with the truth of the Biblical testimony, but this arguing that the Bible presents something different than this is bordering on ridiculousness.

[Predator]

Whilst all things are possible for God,

Thats one of the biggest man-made lies in the Bible and even the atheist can easily nail you on that one .

There are a number of things that God cant do

God cannot create another " Uncreated" God
God cannot banish a person from his domain
God cannot die

May I ask, as I have often wondered, what do Muslims think of this? God gaves Judas the looks of Jesus and had him crucified- only to, seven hundred years later, when Christianity was already one of the largest religions in the world, admit He'd made a mistake and He'd deliberately misled a whole group of people to believing that Jesus was crucified when He actually wasn't?

Similar question asked and answered in the below video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OuB9HhSTVY

[Predator]

Was the Person on the Cross Really Jesus?

The Bible says

“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)

Mary the mother of Jesus is a virtuous and saintly God fearing woman

Judas was wicked as he betrayed Jesus to romans for 30 pieces of silver


Yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones?? Now the Christians have four options to choose from.

1. The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.

2. Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.

3. Jesus (pbuh) lied that God forsook him.

4. Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

You have four options to choose from. Now with whatever gymnastics you try. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.

[Al-manar]

You're the one claiming that it is inerrant, not me.

Just note for the readers

It seems that our friend Grace seeker belong to the new trend (the errant-but-still-the-word-of-God view of the Bible) which is being adopted by some Christians today, who are aware that the errant content of the bible can no longer be cleared up or defended ......


though such new moda (the errant-but-still-the-word-of-God view of the Bible) is believed by some christians but it is not the view of both the real biblical inerrantists and the bible itself....

I believe it is inerrant only with regard to matters of faith and practice. It is neither an inerrant historical treatise nor an inerrant science text. It records what men saw, understood, believed, and their interpretations and recollections of events. In some cases those men were indeed in error, and their reported errors are going to be found within the Bbile.

I won't quote muslims who disagree with that,but the christians themselves:

“By this word ( inerrancy) we mean that the Scriptures possess the quality of freedom from error. They are exempt from the liability to mistake, incapable of error. In all their teachings they are in perfect accord with the truth.
E. J. Young, Thy Word Is Truth, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 1957, p. 113



‘Being wholly and verbally God-given, Scripture is without error or fault in all its teaching, no less in what it states about God’s acts in creation, about the events of world history, and about its own literary origins under God, than in its witness to God’s saving grace in individual lives’ (James Montgomery Boice, Does Inerrancy Matter?, Oakland: International Council on Biblical Inerrancy, 1979, p. 13.)



“Even if the errors are supposedly in ‘minor’ matters, any error opens the Bible to suspicion on other points which may not be so ‘minor.’ If inerrancy falls, other doctrines will fall too.” If we can’t trust Scripture in things like geography, chronology, and history, then how can we be sure we can trust it in its message of salvation and sanctification?
Charles C. Ryrie, Basic Theology, Victor Books, Wheaton, IL, 1987, electronic media.


If the biblical record can be proved fallible in areas of fact that can be verified, then it is hardly to be trusted in areas where it cannot be tested. As a witness for God, the Bible would be discredited as untrustworthy. What solid truth it may contain would be left as a matter of mere conjecture, subject to the intuition or canons of likelihood of each individual. An attitude of sentimental attachment to traditional religion may incline one person to accept nearly all the substantive teachings of Scripture as probably true. But someone else with equal justification may pick and chose whatever teachings in the Bible happen to appeal to him and lay equal claim to legitimacy. One opinion is as good as another. All things are possible, but nothing is certain if indeed the Bible contains mistakes or errors of any kind (Gleason Archer ,Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties pp. 23-24).



Some say that the Bible is inspired in the same sense that great literature is inspired, as the plays of Shakespeare or the poems of Tennyson and Browning. Such people sometimes say, "I know the Bible is inspired because it inspires me." Really they mean that the Bible is not the infallible Word of God but that it is a good inspiring book even though it has mistakes. Some say that God gave the general thought and left it to men to write it down so that of necessity there would be some slight errors. Some say that the New Testament is authoritative and true, but the Old Testament is imperfect and is simply a survival of primitive religious thinking. Some so-called scholars, who are not scholars enough to know what the Bible claims for itself nor the evidence that it is true, teach a so-called "progressive revelation" and say that none of the Bible is reliable except the very words of Jesus, and they doubt many of the statements of the gospels. Many good men are deceived by these theorists and quote them. Some people say that the Bible contains the Word of God but that not all of it is the Word of God. If one must find for himself or depend upon some modernistic scholar to say just how much of the Bible is really the Word of God and authoritative, of course no two living men, on that plan, would perfectly agree as to what was true and what was not. Some good men very foolishly say that the Bible is inspired and reliable for religious knowledge but is not necessarily true in scientific matters, or in history (John R. Rice, Verbal Inspiration of the Bible, Sword of the Lord Publishers, p. 1).



"The Bible is the inerrant... Word of God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etc." (Jerry Falwell,Finding Inner Peace and Strength,Doubleday, 1982, p. 26, ).


, "The Holy Spirit taught the apostles what to say--what to write. We have, therefore, the Word of God. If God had wanted another i dotted or another t crossed, He would have had it done. The writers did not use one word unless God wanted that word used. They put in every word which God wanted them to put into the Bible" (Alleged Bible Contradictions Explained, George DeHoff p. 23).

It(The Bible) does not err in its revelation, its assertions relative to doctrine, ethics, history, et al. The autographs were absolutely and totally free from error. The Bible gives a faultless record of everything with which it deals (including lies and faults, at times); it chronicles the record of those errors but does not sanction them. It does claim infallibility in all that it does teach, however. Further, when accurately transmitted/translated, the translation is also inspired, the Word of God" (Biblical Inerrancy: The First Annual Gulf Coast Lectures, Church of Christ, Portland, Texas, 1993, pp. 33-34).



I believe that God moved the men who wrote the Holy Bible so that the very words they wrote and the very thoughts they expressed were given to them by God and miraculously preserved from every possibility of error. I further believe that Holy Scriptures "since they are the Word of God, contain no errors or contradictions, but are in all their parts and words infallible truth, also in those parts that treat of historical, geographical, and other secular matters" . I will go even further since Jesus went further. I believe that the Bible is not only verbally inspired, but is also totally accurate in its tense, mood, voice, and case (in the original autographs) because Jesus says so
William Bischoff, a pastor in Bridgeton, Missouri.


"... But how do you know Jesus except as he is presented to you in the Bible? If the Bible is not God's Word and does not present a picture of Jesus Christ that can be trusted, how do you know it is the true Christ you are following? You may be worshipping a Christ of your own imagination." (Does Errancy Matter by James Boice, page 24)



Once conceding there are errors in the Bible, you have opened a Pandora's Box. How do you know which parts are true if you admit some parts are false. As ICBI said: "... But this position (claiming truthfulness for those parts of the Bible where God, as opposed to men has spoken-ed). is unsound. People who think like this speak of Biblical authority, but at best they have partial Biblical authority since the parts containing errors obviously cannot be authoritative. What is worse, they cannot even tell us precisely what parts are from God and are therefore truthful and what parts are not from God and are in error. Usually they say that the "salvation parts" are from God, but they do not tell us how to separate these from the non-salvation parts." (Does Errancy Matter by James Boice, page 8)

The verse in Matthew applies to giving people confidence when they stand before tribunals of judgment and other trials. It does not suggest that God is going to dictate anything with regard to those who wrote the scriptures.

Inerrantists will argue that these texts spoke of divine inspiration that would be given to the disciples in situations where they were brought before kings and rulers and said nothing about written inspiration. This will put him in the situation of arguing that God was careful enough to put into the mouths of the disciples the words they should speak, which would be gone and forgotten moments after they had spoken them, but when they were writing books that were intended to guide mankind for thousands of years through the Christian era, they were left pretty much on their own to record "the substance of what had happened" and to give "as many supporting details as they could conveniently remember." Well, why not? Such a position would be no more idiotic than various other scenarios that inerrantist cohorts have resorted to in order to circumvent numerous discrepancies in the Bible.(Farrell till,Ex christian missionary)

I disagree. Scripture does indeed do these things -- it instructs us in righteousness (i.e. holy living), it does not claim anything beyond that, and it is wrong to for you to ask it to do.

I did ask the bible ,are you wholly the word of God ?and it says ..yes,I'm

ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God

The bible tells it is ALL inspired and you say no it isn't ,just why don't you believe it?!

If Ingersoll was correct in all things you might have a point, but he isn't and you don't.

Ingersoll wasn't correct in all things neither me nor anyone else,but the bible has to be.

John who entered the empty tomb, who was in the upper room when Jesus entered it, and who had breakfast with the resurrected Jesus by the shore of Lake Galille was most definitely present at Jesus crucifixion. He would write both a gospel account of these events and a letter in which he specifically looks back on these events

I would not discuss again anything regarding the authorship of John,cause not only the matter is at best controversal but also if one reads my posts would know that I care for the work not who the writer it might have been.....

If John witnessed the issue why he would contradict another writer who is imagined to have witnessed the same issue? eg;

If Mary Magdalene had been told by an angel that Jesus had risen and if she had even seen Jesus and touched him after leaving the tomb,as in (Matthew 28:1,10), why did she go tell Peter that the body of Jesus had been stolen as in (John 20:1)?

[Supreme]

How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones?? Now the Christians have four options to choose from.

Jesus was never forsaken, for that would imply He never would have been resurrected. How can He have been forsaken when He was resurrected? Can you explain? Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, written by David- a Psalm, it has to be said, that end happily and with God victorious. God being victorious is the story of the crucifixion in a nutshell.

You have four options to choose from. Now with whatever gymnastics you try. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.

Um... the fifth one could be Jesus was never forsaken but was quoting a Psalm? It's mere rhetoric; it is easy perhaps for someone who speaks English as a first language, however I suppose the concept would be understandably harder for someone who only speaks it as a second language.

[Predator]

Whether your read it in KJV or some other version isn't important.

Its a word of God and how can you say it isnt important



"THE KING JAMES VERSION (alternative description of AV) HAS WITH GOOD REASON BEEN TERMED 'THE NOBLEST MONUMENT OF ENGLISH PROSE.' ITS REVISERS IN 1881 EXPRESSED ADMIRATION FOR 'ITS SIMPLICITY, ITS DIGNITY, ITS POWER, ITS HAPPY TURNS OF EXPRESSION ... THE MUSIC OF ITS CADENCES, AND THE FELICITIES OF ITS RHYTHM.' IT ENTERED, AS NO OTHER BOOK HAS, INTO THE MAKING OF THE PERSONAL CHARACTER AND THE PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS OF THE ENGLISH-SPEAKING PEOPLES. WE OWE TO IT AN INCALCULABLE DEBT."

Can you, imagine a more magnificent tribute being paid to the "Book of Books" than the above? I, for one, cannot. Let the believing Christian, now steel himself for the un-kindest blow of all from his own beloved Lawyers of Religion; for in the very same breath they say:

"YET THE KING JAMES VERSION HAS GRAVE DEFECTS." And, "THAT THESE DEFECTS ARE SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS AS TO CALL FOR REVISION . . ."(R S V 1971) This is straight from the horse's mouth, i.e. the orthodox Christian scholars of "the highest eminence." Another galaxy of Doctors of Divinity are now required to produce an encyclopaedia explaining the cause of those GRAVE AND SERIOUS DEFECTS in their Holy Writ and their reasons for eliminating them. Do you attributethese serious defects to God Almighty.

[Al-manar]

Um... the fifth one could be Jesus was never forsaken but was quoting a Psalm? .

The sixth one (the sophisticated )is that Matthew used the pesher technique to find an old testament supposed meaning of the hearsay accounts regarding jesus ,he received .

but if he was able to predict the future ,he wouldn't have practiced the pesher in such occasion ,as such passage he used (My God ,My God why have you forsaken me) would later cause much suffering to the trinitarian theology in front of its critics(more details in the right time)..

Regards

[Supreme]

The sixth one (the sophisticated )is that Matthew used the pesher technique to find an old testament supposed meaning of the hearsay accounts regarding jesus ,he received .

Don't you mean Mark? Matthew used Mark as a source; more than likely he acquired the phrase from Mark. Of course that is a possiblity, but it is a mere theory, and different from the one generally held by Christian scholars at that.

but if he was able to predict the future ,he wouldn't have practiced the pesher in such occasion ,as such passage he used (My God ,My God why have you forsaken me) would later cause much suffering to the trinitarian theology in front of its critics(more details in the right time)..

I'd argue against this, because:

1) It has no relevance to the Trinity whatsoever.
2) It's hardly causing 'much suffering'. As mentioned previously, Christians have thought about this, weighed it out, and arrived at the same conclusion, just as they have every controversial passage. There's little debate between Christians about the meaning of the verse outside the consensus; the only 'suffering' caused is by Muslim apologists giving weight to their own cause and trying to turn the verse into something it isn't, and something not taken seriously by the general majority of Christians. Which is fine, every religion must have its apologists that seek faults in the religious texts and theology of others in order to proselytize. It's human nature, even atheists get involved.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Airforce;

There are a number of things that God cant do

God cannot create another " Uncreated" God
God cannot banish a person from his domain
God cannot die

But these things have little meaning, if you are searching for something with a greatest and most profound meaning, then look to the greatest commandments.

When Jesus the Son of God spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by these greatest commandments,

Jesus, God the Son, loves God the Father, with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us, as he loves himself.

Can God the Father, or God the Son love each one of us more than they love themselves?

In the spirit of searching for a greatest God

Eric

[Grace Seeker]

Its a word of God and how can you say it isnt important

Look at what I said was unimportant. I said whether you read in the KJV or some other version isn't important. But I said that in the context of the post that you made, that there was something that was important that you were missing.

Airforce, words do not stand in isolation. They are written within the context of wider discussions and patterns of thought. If you are unable to understand that in our conversations here, it is little wonder that you keep missing this important thing called context in the Bible passages you continue to quote, for more often than not you radically miss their actual meaning for innovations that are not Gospel, not Pauline, but pure Airforcean.

[Predator]

It's hardly causing 'much suffering'. As mentioned previously, Christians have thought about this, weighed it out, and arrived at the same conclusion, just as they have every controversial passage. There's little debate between Christians about the meaning of the verse outside the consensus; the only 'suffering' caused is by Muslim apologists giving weight to their own cause and trying to turn the verse into something it isn't, and something not taken seriously by the general majority of Christians. Which is fine, every religion must have its apologists that seek faults in the religious texts and theology of others in order to proselytize. It's human nature, even atheists get involved

.

If Jesus knew all along that he was destined to be crucified to death (indeed if that was his purpose in life), why did he exclaim on the cross Eli, Eli Lama Sabachthani meaning my God my God why hast thou forsaken me?

Is this how Jesus prepares for sacrifice ?
Is this how Jesus prepares for suicide ?

"When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.

Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in God ?

And if he was God , how could he let himself down ?

[Supreme]

.

If Jesus knew all along that he was destined to be crucified to death (indeed if that was his purpose in life), why did he exclaim on the cross Eli, Eli Lama Sabachthani meaning my God my God why hast thou forsaken me?

Is this how Jesus prepares for sacrifice ?
Is this how Jesus prepares for suicide ?

"When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.

Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in God ?

And if he was God , how could he let himself down ?

Jesus was never forsaken, for that would imply He never would have been resurrected. How can He have been forsaken when He was resurrected? Can you explain? Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, written by David- a Psalm, it has to be said, that end happily and with God victorious. God being victorious is the story of the crucifixion in a nutshell.

Um... the fifth one could be Jesus was never forsaken but was quoting a Psalm? It's mere rhetoric; it is easy perhaps for someone who speaks English as a first language, however I suppose the concept would be understandably harder for someone who only speaks it as a second language.

I've always found it useful to read posts before asking the same poster who posted that post in a post what something means that you've already asked in about a dozen other posts. In short, use your eyes next time.

[Grace Seeker]

.

If Jesus knew all along that he was destined to be crucified to death (indeed if that was his purpose in life), why did he exclaim on the cross Eli, Eli Lama Sabachthani meaning my God my God why hast thou forsaken me?

Is this how Jesus prepares for sacrifice ?
Is this how Jesus prepares for suicide ?

"When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.

Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in God ?

And if he was God , how could he let himself down ?

You've jumped to several conclusions that a more careful reading either of the scriptures or our answers to these very questions in previous posts would have helped you to avoid.

Is this how Jesus prepares for sacrifice ?

Jesus is on the cross when he says these things, so he is not preparing for anything, he is in the middle of actually experiencing it.

Is this how Jesus prepares for suicide ?

While Jesus does go willingly to the cross I would not call this suicide any more than I would call a soldier on the battlefield falling on a grenade to save his comrades an act of suicide. But that's just my personal understanding of it, perhaps you would.

if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

Jesus's dark night of the soul was not the cross, but the night before in the garden of Gethsemane. There, knowing what lay before him, he prayed asking if there might be another way. But in terms of his level of commitment, he never waivered, always seeking to do the will of his Father, even when that meant death on a cross.

BTW, with regard to comparisons between Abraham's son and Jesus, Jesus doesn't experience what Abraham's son experienced, Jesus experiences what the lamb that was actually sacrificed experienced.

Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in God ?

No. There is absolutely no evidence, even in Jesus' cry from the cross, that Jesus did not have faith in God. As has been pointed out to you numerous times, Jesus is quoting from one of David's psalms, Pslam 22 specifically, and this opening line introduces a psalm that focuses on God's faithfulness, faithfulness even in the midst of suffering.

Now, this is at least the second time I've answered this particular question for you, and I remember others besides me doing so previously as well. I can understand the question coming from people without background in the scriptures, so when you asked the first time that was not unexpected. But when you've repeatedly asked this same question of more than one of us and been shown the answer but then still continue to ask it repeatedly as if you've stumbled upon something, all that you're making obvious to the rest of us is that either (1) you don't actually take the time to read answers to your questions, (2) your questions aren't really sincere and you're just intentionally contentious in nature, or (3) you're simply not able to process the information given to you and that we're casting our pearls before swine (as the saying goes, not that you're a pig) in trying to help educate you on these things.

if he was God , how could he let himself down ?

He didn't.