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Predator
01-04-2010, 12:59 PM
How do we know that a book claimed to be from God is really the Book of God? One of thetests, out of the many such tests, is - that a message emanating from an Omniscient Being MUST be consistent with itself. It ought to be free from all discrepancies and contradictions.
This is exactly what the LAST TESTAMENT, the Book of God says:

Holy Quran 4:82
Do they not consider the Quran with care
Had it been from anyone other than Allah
They would have found therein many a discrepancy



If God Almighty wants us to verify the authenticity of His Book (The Holy Qur-án) with this acid test, why should we not apply the very same test to any other Book claiming to be from Him

And with that we can start with God almightand his contradictory attributes in the bible

GOD : His contradictory attributes -

God the seen or the unseen

(a) "No man hath seen God at any time" JOHN 1:18
(b) "(God) whom no man hath seen, nor can see ..." 1 TIMOTHY 6:16
(c) "And he (God) said, Thou canst see my face: for there shall
no man see me, and live." EXODUS 33:20


Contradicted by:
(a) "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man
speaketh unto his friend." EXODUS 33:11
(b) "And they (Moses, Aaron and seventy others) saw the God of
Israel . . ." EXODUS 24:10
(c) "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have
seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." GENESIS 32:30
And as a special favour God shows his back parts to Moses:
"And I (God) will take away my hand and thou shalt see my
back parts . . ." EXODUS 33:23



13. GOD : Is not a fabricator of confusion -

(a) "For God is NOT the author of confusion . . ." 1 CORINTHIANS
14:33

Contradicted by:
(a) ". . . I make peace, and CREATE EVIL . . ." ISAIAH 45:7
(b) "But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and AN EVIL
SPIRIT from the Lord troubled him." 1 SAMUEL 16:14
(c) "And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion,
that they should BELIEVE A LIE." 2 THESSALONIANS 2:11



(a) GOD AS AN OMNIPOTENT BEING:
"And Jesus saith . . . for with God ALL THINGS are
possible." MARK 10:27, also MATTHEW 19:26
Contradicted by:
"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drove out the
inhabitants of the mountain; but COULD NOT drive out the
inhabitants of the valley, because they had CHARIOTS OF
IRON." JUDGES 1:19

(a) GOD'S ANGER ABIDETH FOR A MINUTE:
"For his (God's) anger endureth but a MOMENT." PSALMS 30:5

Contradicted by:
"And the Lord's anger was kindled against Israel, and he
made them (the Jews) wander in the wilderness FORTY
YEARS . . ." NUMBERS 32:13



(b) GOD DOES NOT SHOW ANY SELF-REPROACH:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of
man, that he should REPENT . . ." NUMBERS 23:19

Contradicted by:
". . . and the Lord REPENTED that he made Saul king over
Israel." 1 SAMUEL 15:35
Also: "And the Lord REPENTED of the evil which he thought to
do unto his people (Israel)." EXODUS 32:14


So the god isnt even perfect and commits sins as well , is this a quality of god


(c) GOD DWELLS IN LIGHT:
". . . (God) dwelling in the LIGHT which no man can
approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see . . ." 1
TIMOTHY 6:16

Contradicted by:
"Then spake Solomon, the Lord said that he would dwell in
the THICK DARKNESS." 1 KINGS 8:12

(d) GOD DOES NOT ENTICE MAN:
"Let no man say he is tempted, I am TEMPTED of God: for
God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTETH
he any man." JAMES 1:13

Contradicted by:
"And it came to pass after these things, that God DID
TEMPT Abraham . . ." GENESIS 22:1



God gets refreshed

for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the
seventh day he rested, and WAS REFRESHED." EXODUS 31:17


On the contrary the Holy Qur'an states:

"His throne doth extend
Over the heavens
And the earth, and He feeleth
No fatigue in guarding
And preserving them
For He is the most High,
The Supreme (in glory)." Holy Qur'an 2:255




ALCOHOL : A devilish advice in God's (?) Book?

(a) "Alcohol is for people who are DYING, for those who are in
MISERY. Let them drink and FORGET their poverty and
unhappiness." (From the "Good News Bible in Today's English") PROVERBS 31:6-
7
Alcohol recommended in preference to water!
(b) "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomachs
sake and thine often infirmities." 1 TIMOTHY 5:23



Alcohol is the Devil's handiwork says the . . . Holy Qur'an 5:93

GOD : Qualities ill-befitting God -

(a) A "hissing" God (?) ISAIAH 5:26, 7:18, ZECHARIAH 10:8

God evolving fire from his mouth like a dragon

(b) A "roaring" God (?) ISAIAH 42:13, JEREMIAH 25:30

(c) A "barber" God (?) ISAIAH 7:20


(e) A God "riding" a cherub (?) 2 SAMUEL 22:11

God couldnt come down to earth on a helicopter or a flying saucer , But rides a poor tiny girl angel .Even Superman does a better Job in that aspect

(f) A God murders 50,070 for looking into a box (?) 1 SAMUEL 6:19
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Ramadhan
01-06-2010, 06:38 AM
Aaahh.. these are very enlightening and make clear as the day from the night what is true and what is false.

Jazakallah khair.
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Grace Seeker
01-06-2010, 09:30 PM
First, I appreciate that you have posted this seperately rather than injecting it into other threads.

Second, I think you have a well formulated list and good examples.

Third, you do recognize that Christians don't think of the Bible as a book by God (or at least the majority of us don't), can you see how that perhaps not eliminating all of your objections straight away, that it would change the force of your objections?

Fourth, are you willing to subject the Qur'an to non-Muslims searching through it for "shortcomings, contradictory attributes and other qualities"? I've steadfastly refused to do that with the Qur'an out of respect for our hosts here. If you have no objection, since the Hadith is often treated as on par with the Qur'an in terms of providing guidance, would you object to us including it as well?
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Ramadhan
01-07-2010, 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
First, I appreciate that you have posted this seperately rather than injecting it into other threads.

Second, I think you have a well formulated list and good examples.

Third, you do recognize that Christians don't think of the Bible as a book by God (or at least the majority of us don't), can you see how that perhaps not eliminating all of your objections straight away, that it would change the force of your objections?

Fourth, are you willing to subject the Qur'an to non-Muslims searching through it for "shortcomings, contradictory attributes and other qualities"? I've steadfastly refused to do that with the Qur'an out of respect for our hosts here. If you have no objection, since the Hadith is often treated as on par with the Qur'an in terms of providing guidance, would you object to us including it as well?

So basically, those verses actually exist in the bible correct?
So basically, you accept there are numerous contradictions and errors in the bible correct?
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Grace Seeker
01-07-2010, 05:18 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
So basically, those verses actually exist in the bible correct?
I didn't actually check them out by comparing them to my copy of the Bible. I assumed that Airforce would not have invented them from thin air, and that he is a conscientious enough person to quote them accurately.

So basically, you accept there are numerous contradictions and errors in the bible correct?
I know that there are apparent contradictions in the Bible. I think the word "apparent" is important. I find that often things that I once thought were contradictions are not once I learn more about what the actual meaning behind the respective verses. Some suggest that when properly understood that there are no actual contradictions in the Bible. I don't know that this is true either. I do know that there are passages that still don't quite fit together for me, but I find this to be true any every religion's scriptures -- yes, Islam included. (But, just like many say, when properly understood the Bible is without error or contradictions, so I find this is the response of the Muslim with regard to the Qur'an. Not surprisingly, most people are oblivious to the inherent difficulties of their own sacred scriptures but quick to find them in another's.)
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Ramadhan
01-07-2010, 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I know that there are apparent contradictions in the Bible. I think the word "apparent" is important. I find that often things that I once thought were contradictions are not once I learn more about what the actual meaning behind the respective verses. Some suggest that when properly understood that there are no actual contradictions in the Bible. I don't know that this is true either. I do know that there are passages that still don't quite fit together for me, but I find this to be true any every religion's scriptures -- yes, Islam included. (But, just like many say, when properly understood the Bible is without error or contradictions, so I find this is the response of the Muslim with regard to the Qur'an. Not surprisingly, most people are oblivious to the inherent difficulties of their own sacred scriptures but quick to find them in another's.)
I just love another of your unsatisfying long explanatory verbal acrobat attempt to get out of simple and yet d amning situation. Maybe. or maybe not.

Now, can you give us explanation to each of the bible verses mentioned above why the "apparent" contradictions are actually not contradictions (whatever the meaning of this sentence is)?
Because to my understanding, they were BLATANT contradictions, not just slight differences.
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tango92
01-07-2010, 08:29 AM
ive found some contradictions that cannot be explained by mistranslation or conxt issues.
and those are the MATHEMATICAL contradictions.

in the king james version (and in others, im just quoting frm there)

ii book of kings : ch 8 : v 26 - refereing to when ahazia began his reign as king

Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

ii chronicles 22:2

Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7lPQPeeBjc

its only 3.39 mins long, its v interesting. watch if you belive your faith is strong enough to handle it
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Eric H
01-07-2010, 09:15 AM
Greetings and peace be with you tango92; I hope you are well.

I looked up the King James Bible, and indeed there are two different ages quoted. I am not a scholar, and I suppose you would have to look back at even older Bibles, to see the original translations.

I have the New International Bible, and in both verses it says, that Ahaziah was twenty-two.

The Bible as a complete work, was written to inspire me to do something, and certainly the King James version inspired many people to do something also.

I have stopped and reflected on the discrepancies, and I still sincerely believe that the complete Bible has been inspired by God. The Bible I read today, is the Bible that God intends me to read.

The Bible and the Quaran were written in very different ways, and as many people say, the Bible can suffer from translation. Faith in God means that I should still be inspired, despite all the things that challenge me.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric
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aadil77
01-07-2010, 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Fourth, are you willing to subject the Qur'an to non-Muslims searching through it for "shortcomings, contradictory attributes and other qualities"? I've steadfastly refused to do that with the Qur'an out of respect for our hosts here. If you have no objection, since the Hadith is often treated as on par with the Qur'an in terms of providing guidance, would you object to us including it as well?
Why not? I'm sure plenty of people have tried and failed on this forum, the hadith might be difficult as it depends on which book of hadith you quote from, because some can only be verified by scholars and other knowledgable people.

But go for it, it'd be quite interesting, but in a new thread :thumbs_up
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Eric H
01-07-2010, 10:53 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Grace Seeker; I hope you and your family are well.

Fourth, are you willing to subject the Qur'an to non-Muslims searching through it for "shortcomings, contradictory attributes and other qualities"? I've steadfastly refused to do that with the Qur'an out of respect for our hosts here.
Like you, I am sure there will be passages in the Qur’an that non- Muslims could challenge, but I do not think this is a good idea to do so. My reason is that by doing so, we would challenge the faith of our brothers and sisters, if anyone lost their faith and became an atheist, because of something I said, then this would not be good for me or them.

Faith in God is a struggle, and when I read through some of the posts in the ‘support and advice forum’ I see how some of our Muslim brothers and sisters have struggled in the ways I have also struggled. I believe we should be encouraging each other, despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding

Eric
Reply

Grace Seeker
01-07-2010, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
I just love another of your unsatisfying long explanatory verbal acrobat attempt to get out of simple and yet d amning situation. Maybe. or maybe not.
I'm so happy that you love them.

Now, can you give us explanation to each of the bible verses mentioned above why the "apparent" contradictions are actually not contradictions (whatever the meaning of this sentence is)?
Because to my understanding, they were BLATANT contradictions, not just slight differences.
No. I cannot. Though I could for some passages, there are others that, as I indicated above, I find perplexing myself. These (and even more) are some of my objections to those Christians who argue for various dictation theories with regard to the Bible, and I suspect they are there because while God is himself perfect and without flaw, the human writers that he used were not. However, it isn't my agenda to either excuse or try to defend the Bible; I don't think that it needs me to do that. Jesus himself noted that the problem isn't with the scriptures nor with realiy (often denied) but with an individual's lack of faith (see Luke 16:31).

Now, if you have some serious question of faith, rather than what comes across as mere random pot-shots taken at the Bible, then of course I am glad to join you in wrestling with the issue as best I can. But I don't perceive that to be your agenda. If you have chosen to accept the validity of the Qur'an, a Bible with no mysteries, no contradictions, entirely logical in construction and supported by non-bilbical but contemporaneous historians would still be in disagreement with the Qur'an and we would still be at the same impasse we are today. There is enough of the nature of who God truly is revealed in the text of the Bible for you to come to know and accept him if you want or to reject him and turn away if you want. That choice is yours to make, and I am not so self-deluded as to think that my response here is going to change your mind on that issue unless you are open to consider new ideas or new ways of thinking with regard to the world -- which again I do see as being the case.

For those who seek the God of the Bible, even with all of its apparent shortcomings, it remains able to lead one into a relationship with him and is a guide for faith and practice.
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aadil77
01-07-2010, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H

Like you, I am sure there will be passages in the Qur’an that non- Muslims could challenge, but I do not think this is a good idea to do so. My reason is that by doing so, we would challenge the faith of our brothers and sisters, if anyone lost their faith and became an atheist, because of something I said, then this would not be good for me or them.
Eric
Sorry I have to disagree with your opinion. I think most of us here would be quite confident that it will only have the opposite effect, strengthen our belief in islam and possibly invite people to islam.

There have been many debates between christian and muslim speakers with the same challenge and I don't think fears of people becoming atheist have ever been considered, after all muslims believe that Allah guides whom he wills and sends astray whom he wills.
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aadil77
01-07-2010, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I'm so happy that you love them.

No. I cannot. Though I could for some passages, there are others that, as I indicated above, I find perplexing myself. These (and even more) are some of my objections to those Christians who argue for various dictation theories with regard to the Bible, and I suspect they are there because while God is himself perfect and without flaw, the human writers that he used were not. However, it isn't my agenda to either excuse or try to defend the Bible; I don't think that it needs me to do that. Jesus himself noted that the problem isn't with the scriptures nor with realiy (often denied) but with an individual's lack of faith (see Luke 16:31).
I'll have to take note of that, firstly because its the first time I've heard a christian member on this forum admit there are flaws in the bible and secondly because it confirms our beliefs that previous scriptures are corrupted
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Eric H
01-07-2010, 11:13 PM
Greetings and peace be with you aadil77;

Sorry I have to disagree with your opinion. I think most of us here would be quite confident that it will only have the opposite effect, strengthen our belief in islam and possibly invite people to islam.

There have been many debates between christian and muslim speakers with the same challenge and I don't think fears of people becoming atheist have ever been considered, after all muslims believe that Allah guides whom he wills and sends astray whom he wills.
Nevertheless only a couple of days ago, I replied hopefully in an encouraging way to a Muslim struggling with his faith. I feel it is so much better to try and encourage others, rather than debate and argue with them, even when their beliefs are different to mine

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith support

Eric.
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aadil77
01-07-2010, 11:20 PM
no need to worry,

from debates we can learn alot more about our own beliefs and others, most debates here are quite civil
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Eric H
01-08-2010, 11:09 AM
Greetings and peace be with you aadil77;
from debates we can learn alot more about our own beliefs and others, most debates here are quite civil
In all things, we should strive to bring glory to God. When we ask questions about our faith, and ask for clarification, then debates and points of view may help us.

I still struggle with the idea of debates, often they are used to try and pick holes in other peoples beliefs. When this appears to be the motive, I wonder how either side brings glory to God.

The same God who planted Islam in your heart, planted the Catholic faith in my heart, and I often ask, why God chose to do this.

I do agree with you that most debates here are civil, and the mods are very helpful when tempers flare.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding

Eric
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Grace Seeker
01-08-2010, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
I'll have to take note of that, firstly because its the first time I've heard a christian member on this forum admit there are flaws in the bible and secondly because it confirms our beliefs that previous scriptures are corrupted
There are those Christians who hold that the Bible is infallible in all things. Those who hold that it is only infallible in terms of matters of faith. And those who hold that it isn't infallible in any way whatsoever.

As for the the Bible being corrupted. That is a different issue. Is the Bible that we have today the same Bible that it was when originally written? No. The process of copying has introduced changes. Textual criticism is a tool by which scholars attempt to reconstruct the original text. I believe that by this means we have been able to produce a text today that, while undoubtedly not identical to the original text, is nonetheless in accord with the original text. If you are familiar with the phrase, as pure as ivory soap, which advertises itself to be 99 and 44/100ths percent pure, that is how I personally conceive of the Biblical text that we use for translating the Bible into English today.


Please don't make the mistake of mixing fallibility with corruption. They are entirely different things. A text could be a perfect preserved text, but if it is false to begin with, then it remains false even if uncorrupted. On the other hand, a text could be perfectly true and in the processes of copying sustain changes. Whether or not it would still be perfectly true would depend on the nature of those changes, for instance a phrase that says "Jesus was born in Bethlehem" might be changed in a copy to read "Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem" and in another copy to read "Jesus, the Christ, was born in Bethlehem." While obviously corrupted, the truth of the passage remains unchanged because elsewhere in the scriptures Jesus is identified as being the Christ. On the other hand if it was changed to read, "Jesus was born in Bethlehem (a city in Pennsylvania)", then while it is true that there is a city in Pennsylvania named Bethlehem, the meaning derived from the passage has been signficantly changed.

As a Muslim, if you dispute the accuracy and validity of the Bible there may be multiple reasons for this, among them both questions as to whether it was ever true to begin with and then also questions as to whether the text has properly preserved over time. But be sure to distinguish that they are two seperate issues and arguing them together greatly confuses the issue, for it would not follow that if you are able to show one that you have thereby shown the other.
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aadil77
01-10-2010, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
As a Muslim, if you dispute the accuracy and validity of the Bible there may be multiple reasons for this, among them both questions as to whether it was ever true to begin with and then also questions as to whether the text has properly preserved over time. But be sure to distinguish that they are two seperate issues and arguing them together greatly confuses the issue, for it would not follow that if you are able to show one that you have thereby shown the other.
It is clear from the Qur'an that the scriptures were corrupted (Torah, Injeel and Zaboor), obviously not corrupted initially when they were revealed to in their true form to our prophets, but over time due to whatever reasons
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Joe98
01-11-2010, 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77

It is clear from the Qur'an that.......
I still cannot understand muslims.

Some king reigned well before Christ. "Jack' writes the king was 22 and "Fred" writes the king was 42.

How does that make any difference to the deeds done by that king?

Please explain how the difference changes the 10 commandments?

Please explain how the difference affects Christs teachings?

-
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CosmicPathos
01-11-2010, 03:47 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
I still cannot understand muslims.

Some king reigned well before Christ. "Jack' writes the king was 22 and "Fred" writes the king was 42.

How does that make any difference to the deeds done by that king?

Please explain how the difference changes the 10 commandments?

Please explain how the difference affects Christs teachings?

-
If the writers of the bible are not even sure of the age, how can they be sure of what exactly the teachings of Jesus were. ... i think its quite clear to see that ? no? Ooh, but you are an atheist ... thought so
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Ramadhan
01-11-2010, 05:34 AM
Originally Posted by Wa7abiScientist
If the writers of the bible are not even sure of the age, how can they be sure of what exactly the teachings of Jesus were. ... i think its quite clear to see that ? no? Ooh, but you are an atheist ... thought so
But this is where it's baffling.
Atheists always claim they are very critical and logical.
How could he forgive such glaring error and contradiction?
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aadil77
01-12-2010, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
I still cannot understand muslims.

Some king reigned well before Christ. "Jack' writes the king was 22 and "Fred" writes the king was 42.

How does that make any difference to the deeds done by that king?

Please explain how the difference changes the 10 commandments?

Please explain how the difference affects Christs teachings?

-
How hard is it to understand that the qur'an and bible conflict, the beliefs,teachings, stories are not the same, doesn't that make it obvious why we think the bible is corrupted? Its simple the bible does not contain the same message as the quran, so we know that isn't in its true form otherwise nothing would conflict between the two.

The obvious contradictions within the bible are a blatent sign of it being corrupted, but the main evidence is the message isn't the same as it is in the Qur'an, how much more do we need to state the obvious?
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Grace Seeker
01-13-2010, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
How hard is it to understand that the qur'an and bible conflict, the beliefs,teachings, stories are not the same, doesn't that make it obvious why we think the bible is corrupted? Its simple the bible does not contain the same message as the quran, so we know that isn't in its true form otherwise nothing would conflict between the two.
Or..... perhaps you can understand why it is that--as one who holds to the integrity of my own scriptures-- the contradictions you have noted between them instead of proving the corrupted nature of my text become the most glaring reason as to why I will always have problems with accepting the Qur'an as the very words of God recited.
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syilla
01-13-2010, 04:14 AM
^^^maybe u should post the problem here like the muslims are doing to the bible
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Grace Seeker
01-13-2010, 04:50 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
^^^maybe u should post the problem here like the muslims are doing to the bible

Beyond noting the obvious differences between the Qur'an and the Bible, e.g. the different accounts regarding the crucifixion or our understanding of Jesus' nature, I have no desire to endlessly attack my hosts on this forum. I understand that I am a guest here. This is a place for discussion of Islam. I am here principally to learn more about Islam in order to better understand it, and (as needed) correct misunderstandings of the Christian faith. I am not here to prosleytize (though I fear I probably cross this line more than I realize), and I am certainly not here to attack Islam as a means of promoting my faith.

But, thank-you for your openness in inviting such comments. That is more than gracious.
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syilla
01-13-2010, 06:24 AM
^^^ you don't need to attack... just show the verses that you can't accept. And if you still can't accept the muslims explanation...nothing harm was done. I'm sure most of the muslims here are used it.
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aadil77
01-13-2010, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Beyond noting the obvious differences between the Qur'an and the Bible, e.g. the different accounts regarding the crucifixion or our understanding of Jesus' nature, I have no desire to endlessly attack my hosts on this forum. I understand that I am a guest here. This is a place for discussion of Islam. I am here principally to learn more about Islam in order to better understand it, and (as needed) correct misunderstandings of the Christian faith. I am not here to prosleytize (though I fear I probably cross this line more than I realize), and I am certainly not here to attack Islam as a means of promoting my faith.

But, thank-you for your openness in inviting such comments. That is more than gracious.
I'll be honest you've been here long enough for us to know that you're not some islam hating troll or some christian missionary, I don't think anyone will feel you're attacking islam. So please do point out any flaws, contradictions etc you feel are present in the Qur'an, it will be interesting to see what you can find, like you said this is a place to discuss islam so go ahead.

Don't make me challenge you! :D
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