What Would Jesus (pbuh) Be?

[Ramadhan]

I was just thinking about the question this morning, and the more I thought about it, the more clear the answer is.
There has been strong movement especially in the USA called WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) to speculate about the actions of Jesus pbuh had he lived among us now.

If Jesus pbuh lived today, what would he be?

Let's see:
- He would believe in one God
- He would establish daily prayer and worships to God
- He would be circumcised
- He would not eat pork
- He would fast on certain days
- He would give alms/zakat
(these facts are from the Bible)

Based on the above characteristics, people would think he's a muslim, of course.

What do you think?

[Danah]

I was just thinking about the question this morning, and the more I thought about it, the more clear the answer is.
There has been strong movement especially in the USA called WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) to speculate about the actions of Jesus pbuh had he lived among us now.

If Jesus pbuh lived today, what would he be?

Will do what any other prophet will do.

Let's see:
- He would believe in one God

Sure, because he will never worship himself!

The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah [Quran 4:172]

- He would establish daily prayer and worships to God
- He would be circumcised
- He would not eat pork
- He would fast on certain days
- He would give alms/zakat
(these facts are from the Bible)

True!

Based on the above characteristics, people would think he's a muslim, of course.

What do you think?

Sure he is like any other prophet a Muslim who submit to one and only one God.
I am sure that many people don't know the literal meaning of the word Muslim in Arabic and only think that its belong to a certain group of people who are calling themselves by that name. It mean in Arabic the one who submit, Islam is the noun of that word and it means the submission to the one God. So its not something new that invited when the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him was sent to the world. But rather the message that all prophets started from Adam was conveying.

[Supreme]

Jesus would drink wine, and I imagine He would be rather witty and funny. His messages of peace and charity would be interesting to listen to. He would be a general laugh to be with, not a womanizer, nor a racist or superior. He would invite in sinners in to His arms and bless them and forgive their sins. He would be humble, always putting the welfare and joy of other people, Jew or Gentile, righteous or sinner, before His own.

[Banu_Hashim]

Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) would speak Aramaic, a language very close to Arabic. Therefore, he would have been known as "Eesa" and his mother "Mariyam" (peace be upon them both.

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[mkh4JC]

The Bible says that when he returns to set up his thousand year reign that he will rule this world with a rod of iron, so that's what he will be like.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Jesus(Peace be upon him) would never be what he has been made out to be by people after him. Just like ALL the prophets and messengers sent by God to their people, he came with the same messege which is to establish the oneness of God!

Never would Jesus(Pbuh) have called himself a God but that his words and message was twisted by the people after him as is confirmed in the Dideche.

Older Manuscripts found in Palestine says that Jesus Christ (A) is NOT a God!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flafC8VDhms

Jesus(Pbuh) was was a revered Prophet of Allah who came to re-establish the old testament given to Moses not to abrogate or change it like Paul the apostle did.

It is satan that has from the beginning of creation wanted to lead man astray and his biggest achievement in doing this was was to make man worship other than God and to ascribe partners to him.

Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus attribute himself to God but his words and teachings have been distorted and intepreted in such a way as to make a man of God to become a God himself.

The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ:


"My Father is greater than I." [The Bible, John 14:28]

"My Father is greater than all." [The Bible, John 10:29]

"…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…." [The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

"…I with the finger of God cast out devils…." [The Bible, Luke 11:20]

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [The Bible, John 5:30]


Here are some very useful links to read more about the real truth and of Christianity and some links to learn more about Islam:

http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/muhamm...ised/index.htm

How The Bible Led Me To Islam Recommended

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...-me-islam.html

Very Useful Threads For Those Looking Into Islam, Some Amazing threads for those looking into Islam!!!

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...nto-islam.html

Brilliant "proof Of Islam" Lectures By Abdul Rahman Green

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...man-green.html

See why they converted to Islam:

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=44218

[Supreme]

The Bible says that when he returns to set up his thousand year reign that he will rule this world with a rod of iron, so that's what he will be like.

Could you please link the verses to that particular statement? It's not from the Book of Revelation, is it?

Also, this thread is about what Jesus would be like if He lived today, not what He does when He comes again.

[mkh4JC]

Could you please link the verses to that particular statement? It's not from the Book of Revelation, is it?

Also, this thread is about what Jesus would be like if He lived today, not what He does when He comes again.

Yes it is taken from Revelation:

'And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.' Revelation 19: 15.

It's important to note that when Jesus returns he will be coming to establish the kingdom of God on earth. So there will be peace throughout the earth, and the lion will lay down with the lamb, and children will be able to play in the presence of the snake, and human beings will learn war no more, and so forth, but Jesus will still rule.

[Supreme]

Yes it is taken from Revelation:

'And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.' Revelation 19: 15.

It's important to note that when Jesus returns he will be coming to establish the kingdom of God on earth. So there will be peace throughout the earth, and the lion will lay down with the lamb, and children will be able to play in the presence of the snake, and human beings will learn war no more, and so forth, but Jesus will still rule.

Alright cheers mate, not a big fan of Revelation myself, it is interesting to know what will happen when Jesus returns. However, this thread is about what would happen if Jesus was alive today as opposed to two thousand years ago.

[Rabi Mansur]

Jesus might drink wine, fast, not eat pork, pray to his father who is in heaven (Eloi/Allah?), speak Aramaic and understand Arabic and Hebrew. He would have compassion for the weakest members of society so he would probably hang out with aids victims, Palestinian refugees, etc. He would be in the middle of the mideast crisis seeking a solution. He would also probably try and meet with terrorist leaders and work toward a solution to this evil. I don't think he would like the big/ornate churches or the feel good/get rich quick gospel messages.

Would he be Muslim? Maybe. Would he be a liberation theology Catholic? Who really knows? It is all just speculation.

:wa:

[glo]

I was just thinking about the question this morning, and the more I thought about it, the more clear the answer is.
There has been strong movement especially in the USA called WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) to speculate about the actions of Jesus pbuh had he lived among us now.

If Jesus pbuh lived today, what would he be?

Let's see:
- He would believe in one God
- He would establish daily prayer and worships to God
- He would be circumcised
- He would not eat pork
- He would fast on certain days
- He would give alms/zakat
(these facts are from the Bible)

Based on the above characteristics, people would think he's a muslim, of course.

What do you think?

I agree with what you say.
However, although Jesus (as a Jew) was circumcised and did not eat pork, I don't recall the gospels talking anywhere about him making those demands on the non-Jews he encountered.

In fact, some of the discussions of the new church (after Jesus' death) was whether those Jewish laws were relevant for non-Jews who converted to Christianity, or whether they were still relevant for Jews only ...
Since Jesus never insisted on it, they were probably influenced by that when making their decision.

Jesus would drink wine, and I imagine He would be rather witty and funny. His messages of peace and charity would be interesting to listen to. He would be a general laugh to be with, not a womanizer, nor a racist or superior. He would invite in sinners in to His arms and bless them and forgive their sins. He would be humble, always putting the welfare and joy of other people, Jew or Gentile, righteous or sinner, before His own.

That's beautiful, Supreme. God bless. :)

[glo]

Jesus might drink wine, fast, not eat pork, pray to his father who is in heaven (Eloi/Allah?), speak Aramaic and understand Arabic and Hebrew. He would have compassion for the weakest members of society so he would probably hang out with aids victims, Palestinian refugees, etc. He would be in the middle of the mideast crisis seeking a solution. He would also probably try and meet with terrorist leaders and work toward a solution to this evil. I don't think he would like the big/ornate churches or the feel good/get rich quick gospel messages.

Would he be Muslim? Maybe. Would he be a liberation theology Catholic? Who really knows? It is all just speculation.

:wa:

Amen to that! :)

[Grace Seeker]

Before I can answer the question, it is important to clarify whether this speculative 21st century Jesus is still born in Bethlehem as the Jewish Messiah in particular or if he is born in some other location or of some other ethnic identity? The Bible says that Jesus was born in the "fullness of time" (Galatians 4:4), so it seems that there were certain conditions present with regard to the circumstances of his birth that were met in his age that perhaps cannot be replicated again today.

But should he come, I suspect today, as then, he would be a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and like one from whom men hide their face he would be despised, and we would not esteem him. He would be the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. But whether he would be Jewish, Christian or Muslim is probably irrelevant for, though the world was made through him, the world would not know him. He would come to his own people and not be received by them.

[aadil77]

It would be amazing to witness a prophet in our modern times, although the world may have changed alot more by the time prophet Isa descends.

He will obviously have the same message and beliefs as the prophets before, he may still be able to perform miracles by the will of Allah.

He won't drink wine as it is made forbidden. He'll carry out certains acts as mentioned in the hadith; break the crosses etc

Then he will live the rest of his life during a time of peace (I think) until he actually passes away. One thing to remember is that Isa alaihisalam will pass away as part of the ummah of our prophet Muhammad :saws1:

I'd love to just even catch a glimpse of him before I die, witnessing some of the best of Allahs creation an actual prophet

[Hamza Asadullah]

Alright cheers mate, not a big fan of Revelation

Is'nt that blasphemous to make such a remark about a book which is supposed to be 'divine' in your religion?

Do you question the book of Revelation and question its divine status? Are they not to be the teachings of Jesus and God?

I've also heard many Christians saying they don't believe in the old testament and that it's stories of the Prophets are not meant to be taken literally but metaphorically.

[Ramadhan]

Jesus would definitely NOT go to church to pray, since Jesus did not go to pagan temples where there were statues and idols.

[Italianguy]

I agree. Anyone can be a muslim. I've seen Christians who are better "Muslims" then Muslim Muslims :S

true, and vice versa.

[Italianguy]

He would probably be a little angry at how all of us brothers and sisters in humanity, have been fighting with each other, instead of doing what He told us to do.....Love one another, unconditionaly! I would say he would forgive us of our sins....but He already did that, and I wouldn't have the guts to ask Him to do it again.

[Italianguy]

Is'nt that blasphemous to make such a remark about a book which is supposed to be 'divine' in your religion?

Do you question the book of Revelation and question its divine status? Are they not to be the teachings of Jesus and God?

I've also heard many Christians saying they don't believe in the old testament and that it's stories of the Prophets are not meant to be taken literally but metaphorically.

Oh wow, really? I can't believe some one would tell you they are allowed and or are not supposed to take it literally?

We are supposed to read the Bible for what it is....The Word Of God. Not to be taken lightly nor interpreted in our on way for our own edefication.

[جوري]

This is what will happen when Jesus (p) returns insha'Allah:

Armageddon, World War III, Antichrist, and the second coming of Jesus (p) --- Islam Muhammad predict WW3 the future Islamic articles.Armageddon, World War III, Antichrist, and the second coming of Jesus

The Bible describes in a vivid language the corruption, destruction, and death typifying the end of times. We see the godly forces confronting the evil of Satan, the Antichrist, and Gog and Magog. We learn that the cataclysmic events will take place in the Middle East. But still the picture needs to be completed. Unanswered questions need to be answered. Who are Gog and Magog? Where will Jesus return? Where in the Middle East will Jesus confront the evil military forces? What nation(s) will supply the forces? Where will the 'Antichrist be slain?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad(p) has prophesied about several events that will occur just before the advent of the day of judgment. Among these, Muhammad(p) has foretold the return of Jesus(p), which will materialize when a one eyed claimant to divinity (Antichrist) will attempt to misguide the humanity into worshipping him. Messiah will descend from the heavens in Damascus, pray behind Imam Mahdi, pursue and kill the Antichrist, destroy the savage and unbelieving armies of Gog and Magog, and bring peace and brotherhood to the world. Christians will recognize the truth and accept him only as a Messenger of God; the religion of God (Islam) will justly rule the world.
There will be no oppression and no need to fight oppressors (war will be abolished) and no need to collect Jizyah (since there will be no non-Muslim people of the Book to collect this tax from). Every human being will be well-off and no one will accept charity. Messiah will perform Hajj (pilgrimage), marry, remain married for 19 years, beget children, and die after living on earth for 40 years. His death will signal the beginning of the last days
Verses from the Holy Quran relating to the Second Advent of Jesus Son of Mary (pbuh):

1. And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e. Jesus as an messenger of God and as a human being) before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them. (The Holy Quran, An-Nisa, 4:159)
2. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. (Quran, Az-Zukhuruf, 43:61)

Hadeeths Relating to the Second Advent of Jesus Son of Mary (pbuh):

1. "I swear by Him in Whose hand is my soul: the son of Mary shall descend among you as a just ruler. Then he will break the Cross, and kill the swine and put an end to war(in another Tradition, there is the word Jizyah (tax) instead of war, meaning that he will abolish of jizyah);Athen there will be such abundance of wealth that nobody will like to accept it, and (conditions will be such that) performing of one sajdah (prostration) before Allah will be considered better than the world and what it contains." (Bukhari and Muslim).
2. "Jesus son of Mary shall descend; then he will kill the swine and destroy the Cross; and a congregation will be held for him for the Prayer; and he will distribute so much wealth that people will be satiated with it; and he will abolish the tribute; and he will encamp at Rauha', B and from there will go to perform Hajj or 'Umrah, or both." (Muslim).
3. The Holy Prophet (after making mention of the appearance of the Dajjal) said: "In the meantime, When the Muslims will be making preparations to fight him, will be lining up (for the Prayer) and the lqamah will have been pronounced, Jesus son of Mary shall descend and lead them in the Prayer; and the enemy of Allah (Dajjal i.e. the Antichrist) on seeing him shall start dissolving like salt in water. If Jesus were to leave him alone, he would melt to death anyway, but Allah will have him killed at his hand, and he will show his blood on his spear to the Muslims." (Muslim).
4. "There is no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus Christ), and he shall descend. So, recognize him when you see him. He is a man of medium height, of ruddy and fair complexion; he will be dressed in two yellow garments; the hair of his head will appear as though water was going to trickle down from it, whereas it will not be wet. He will fight people in the cause of Islam, will break the Cross and kill the swine and will abolish jizyah; and Allah will put an end to all communities in his time except Islam; and he will slay the Antichrist (Dajjal); and he will stay in the world for 40 years; then will die and the Muslims will offer the funeral Prayer for him." (Abu Da'ud and Ahmad).
5. "... then Jesus son of Mary will descend. The leader of the Muslims will say to him, 'Come, lead us in the Prayer', but he will say, 'No: you yourselves are leaders over one another." C This he will say in view of the honour that Allah has bestowed on this Community." (Muslim and Ahmad).
6. The Holy Prophet (while relating the story of the Dajjal) said: "At that time suddenly Jesus son of Mary (on whom be peace) shall appear among the Muslims. Then the people will stand up for the Prayer, and he will be asked, 'Step forward, 0h Spirit of Allah (and lead us in the Prayer); but he will say, 'No: your own leader should step forward and lead the Prayer.' Then, after offering the Morning Prayer, the Muslims shall go forth to fight the Dajjal.' He said, 'When the liar will see Jesus, he will start dissolving like the salt in water. Then Jesus will advance towards him and will slay him; and it will so happen that the trees and the stones will cry out: '0h Spirit of Allah, here is a Jew hiding behind me.' None will be left from among the followers of the Dajjal, whom he (i.e. Jesus) will not kill." (Ahmad).
7. "In the mean time when the Dajjal will be busy doing this and this, Allah will send down Messiah son of Mary, and he will descend in the eastern part of Damascus, near the white minaret (tower), dressed in the two yellow garments, with his hands resting on the arms of two angels. When he will bend down his head, water drops will appear trickling down, and when he will raise it, it will appear as though pearl--like drops are rolling down. Any disbeliever whom the air of his breath reaches--and it will reach up to the last limit of his sight will fall dead. Then the son of Mary will go in pursuit of the Dajjal, and will overtake him at the gate of Lod, D and will kill him." (Muslim, Abu Da'ud: Kitab, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah).
8. "The Daijal will appear in my Ummah (nation), and will live for forty (I do not know whether he said 40 days, or 40 months or 40 years). Then Allah will send Jesus son of Mary. He will closely resemble 'Urwah Bin Mas'ud (a Companion). He will pursue him and kill him. Then for seven years the people will live in such a state that no ill-will and enmity will exist between any two of them." (Muslim).
9. Then in the morning Jesus son of Mary will join the Muslims, and Allah will cause the Dajjal and his hosts to be routed, until the walls and the roots of the trees will call 'out: "0h believer, here is a disbeliever hidden behind me: come and kill him." (Ahmad, Hakem).
10. Then Jesus (on whom be peace) will descend, and Allah will cause the Dajjal to be killed near the mountain pass of Afiq. E (Ahmad).
11. Exactly at the time when the Imam of the Muslims will have stepped forward to lead them in the Morning Prayer, Jesus son of Mary shall descend upon them. The Imam will step back so that Jesus may step forward (to lead the Prayer), but Jesus, placing his hand between his two shoulders, will say, "No, you should lead, for the congregation has assembled to follow you. So, the Imam will lead the Prayer. After the salutation, Jesus will say, "Open the gate;" so the gate will be opened. Outside there will be the Dajjal along with 70,000 of the armed Jews. As soon as he will look at Jesus (upon whom be peace) he will start melting like the salt in water, and will flee. Jesus will say, "I shall strike you a blow which will not let you live." And he will overtake him at the eastern gate of Lod, and Allah will cause the Jews to be defeated.... And the earth will be so filled with the Muslims as a vessel is filled with water. The entire world shall recite and follow one and the same Kalimah (word) and none shall be worshipped except Allah." (Ibn Majah).
12. The Dajjal would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan (in Iran) wearing Persian shawls.
13. How will you be when the Son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel. (Bukhari)
14. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, Ibn Maryam (Jesus Christ) would certainly pronounce Talbiyah for Hajj or for Umrah or for both (simultaneously as a Qarin) in the valley of Rawha.(Muslim)
15. Narrated Umm Sharik: I heard Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: The people would run away from the Dajjal seeking shelter in the mountains. She said: Where would be the Arabs then on the day? He said: They would be small in number.
16. The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

The following ahadith also explain the Middle East crisis. Abu Huraira reported Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:

1. The last hour would not come before the Euphrates (river) uncovers a mountain of gold for which people will fight. Ninety-nine out of each one hundred would die but every man amongst them would say that perhaps he would be the one who would be saved (and thus possess the gold). (Muslim)
2. The Last Hour would not come until the Romans would land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq.An army consisting of the best (soldiers)of the people of the earth (An international army?) at that time will come from Medina (to oppose them).
   When they will arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans (i.e. All the white Europeans including the Americans)would say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight with them; and the Muslims would say: Nay, by Allah, we would never get aside from you and from our brethren that you may fight them.
   They will then fight and a third (part)of the army would run away, whom Allah will never forgive. A third (part of the army), which would be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eye, would be killed and the third who would never be put to trial would win and they would be conquerors of Constantinople (the capital of the Romans --- can be any city).
   As they would be busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves)after hanging their swords by the olive trees, the Satan would cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your family. They would then come out, but it would be of no avail. And when they would come to Al-Sham (Damascus or Syria), he would come out while they would be still preparing themselves for battle drawing up the ranks.
   Certainly, the time of prayer shall come and then Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary would descend and would lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah would see him, it would (disappear) just as the salt dissolves itself in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely, but Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ).(Muslim)

Downfall of the Zionists and Israel


While the Zionists (Christian and Jewish) never get tired of quoting the Covenant of God with Abraham mentioned in the Bible, in their attempts to legitimize occupation of Palestine by forcing millions of Palestinians out of their homes, they somehow "forgot" to mention the fact that the children of Ishmael also become beneficiary to this Covenant according to the same Bible they claim to believe in. (Genesis 21)

As Dr. Mary Weaver, Professor of Religious Studies at Indiana University writes, "Abraham did have a son (two in fact), though the first, Ishmael, drops out of the story."

Although Ishmael and his descendents were also included, but-this was qualified for both sons of Israel and sons of Ishmael with obedience!
Since the Jews fail to accept Jesus (peace be upon him) as the true Messiah, which both Christians and Muslims know to be the truth, the Antichrist will arise as their "Messiah". The shrewd false Messiah will take advantage of the insidious Zionist military expansionist fervor ultimately leading to the downfall of the Zionists.

Already Muslims have been mercilessly expelled from Palestine while Zionists in their bloodthirsty lust for land and power are not' satisfied with Palestine. In their arrogance they openly admit that they want all of Syria, all of Lebanon, all of Jordan in addition to Iraq, Iskenderun from Turkey, the Sinai, and the Delta area from Egypt and the upper Hejaz and Najd from Saudi Arabia. Yes, they even want the holy city of Medinah.

According to the Hadith No.11 it is very clear that the Antichrist will enter Syria followed by 70,000 armed Zionists to position himself in Damascus. One morning, Jesus (pbuh) will descend in the eastern part of Damascus near a white minaret to begin the holy campaign against the false messiah. The Antichrist will flee towards Israel through the Afiq Pass, but Jesus (pbuh) will overtake him and destroy him at the airfield in Lod just 13 miles south east of Tel-Aviv. The Israelites will be destroyed putting an end to their treacherous community; whereas with the destruction of the Cross, all the religious communities will merge into the single community of Islam.
Notice that according to a hadith, one of the signs before the Resurrection will be Gog and Magog. Remember also that the Bible associates Gog with Meshech (Moscow) and Tubal (Tubalsek), which will come from the north invading Israel amid earthquakes, fire, and brimstone. According to Maududi, Gog and Magog will be let loose in the sense that they will swoop down on the regions of the earth like a beast of prey which is set free from its cage suddenly. (See Qur'an Al-Anbiyaa 94-l03.) The Qur'an also mentions Gog and Magog in relation to the Day of Resurrection.

They said: "0 Zul-qarnaini. The Gog and Magog (people) do great mischief on earth: Shall we then render thee tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between us and them? He said: "(The power) in which my Lord has established me is better (than tribute): Help me therefore with strength (And labour): I will. erect a strong barrier between you and them: "Bring me blocks of iron." At length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountain-sides, he said, "Blow (with your bellows" Then, when he had made it (red) as fire, he said: "Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead." Thus were they made powerless to scale it or to dig through it. He said: "This is a mercy from my Lord: But when the promise of my Lord comes to pass He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true." On that day We shall leave them (Gog and Magog-Yajooj and Majooj) to surge like waves on one another: The trumpet will be blown and We shall collect them all together. And We shall present Hell that day for Unbelievers to see, all spread out,-(Unbelievers) whose eyes had been under a veil from remembrance of Me, and who had been unable even to hear?.
(Sura 94:101)

Note: Gog and Magog are generally believed to be the wild tribes of Central and Northeastern Asia including the Tartars, Mongols, Huns, and Scythians. This isFalse! This belief contradicts with many Hadeeths. Gog and Magog (Ya'juj & Ma'juj) are hidden peolple from us.

------------------------------ Notes ------------------------------

A In other words it means: "All kinds of differences among the communities will disappear and human beings will join one community, the Community of Islam; thus, war will be put to an end to, and jizyah will cease to be imposed."
B A place at a distance of 35 miles from Madinah.
C 'That is, "Your leader should be from among yourselves."
D Lod (Lydda) is situated 13 miles south-east of Tel-Aviv, Capital of Israel, and is the most important airport of the country.
E Afiq (mod. Fiq) is the last Syrian city on the border between Syria and Israel. A little further on towards west at a few miles is the Lake Tiberias (Sea of Galilea), the source of River Jordan. Towards the south-west in the mountains is a low pass, which descends about 2,000 feet to the point from where River Jordan comes out from Lake Tiberias. This same mountain path is called 'Aqabah Afiq the pass of Afiq'.

http://islamicweb.com/history/ww3.htm

[Hamza Asadullah]

Oh wow, really? I can't believe some one would tell you they are allowed and or are not supposed to take it literally?

We are supposed to read the Bible for what it is....The Word Of God. Not to be taken lightly nor interpreted in our on way for our own edefication.

Yes it was when i used to take part in discussions in another forum called ummah forum. He said that Christians do not have to believe in all of the Bible.

When i read Supreme's statement on not being a fan of revelation it reminded me of what that person had said.

Statements like that are blasphemous in Islam because we believe in the Qur'an in its entirety.

[Italianguy]

This is what will happen when Jesus (p) returns insha'Allah:

Armageddon, World War III, Antichrist, and the second coming of Jesus (p) --- Islam Muhammad predict WW3 the future Islamic articles.Armageddon, World War III, Antichrist, and the second coming of Jesus

The Bible describes in a vivid language the corruption, destruction, and death typifying the end of times. We see the godly forces confronting the evil of Satan, the Antichrist, and Gog and Magog. We learn that the cataclysmic events will take place in the Middle East. But still the picture needs to be completed. Unanswered questions need to be answered. Who are Gog and Magog? Where will Jesus return? Where in the Middle East will Jesus confront the evil military forces? What nation(s) will supply the forces? Where will the 'Antichrist be slain?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad(p) has prophesied about several events that will occur just before the advent of the day of judgment. Among these, Muhammad(p) has foretold the return of Jesus(p), which will materialize when a one eyed claimant to divinity (Antichrist) will attempt to misguide the humanity into worshipping him. Messiah will descend from the heavens in Damascus, pray behind Imam Mahdi, pursue and kill the Antichrist, destroy the savage and unbelieving armies of Gog and Magog, and bring peace and brotherhood to the world. Christians will recognize the truth and accept him only as a Messenger of God; the religion of God (Islam) will justly rule the world.
There will be no oppression and no need to fight oppressors (war will be abolished) and no need to collect Jizyah (since there will be no non-Muslim people of the Book to collect this tax from). Every human being will be well-off and no one will accept charity. Messiah will perform Hajj (pilgrimage), marry, remain married for 19 years, beget children, and die after living on earth for 40 years. His death will signal the beginning of the last days
Verses from the Holy Quran relating to the Second Advent of Jesus Son of Mary (pbuh):

1. And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e. Jesus as an messenger of God and as a human being) before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them. (The Holy Quran, An-Nisa, 4:159)
2. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. (Quran, Az-Zukhuruf, 43:61)

Hadeeths Relating to the Second Advent of Jesus Son of Mary (pbuh):

1. "I swear by Him in Whose hand is my soul: the son of Mary shall descend among you as a just ruler. Then he will break the Cross, and kill the swine and put an end to war(in another Tradition, there is the word Jizyah (tax) instead of war, meaning that he will abolish of jizyah);Athen there will be such abundance of wealth that nobody will like to accept it, and (conditions will be such that) performing of one sajdah (prostration) before Allah will be considered better than the world and what it contains." (Bukhari and Muslim).
2. "Jesus son of Mary shall descend; then he will kill the swine and destroy the Cross; and a congregation will be held for him for the Prayer; and he will distribute so much wealth that people will be satiated with it; and he will abolish the tribute; and he will encamp at Rauha', B and from there will go to perform Hajj or 'Umrah, or both." (Muslim).
3. The Holy Prophet (after making mention of the appearance of the Dajjal) said: "In the meantime, When the Muslims will be making preparations to fight him, will be lining up (for the Prayer) and the lqamah will have been pronounced, Jesus son of Mary shall descend and lead them in the Prayer; and the enemy of Allah (Dajjal i.e. the Antichrist) on seeing him shall start dissolving like salt in water. If Jesus were to leave him alone, he would melt to death anyway, but Allah will have him killed at his hand, and he will show his blood on his spear to the Muslims." (Muslim).
4. "There is no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus Christ), and he shall descend. So, recognize him when you see him. He is a man of medium height, of ruddy and fair complexion; he will be dressed in two yellow garments; the hair of his head will appear as though water was going to trickle down from it, whereas it will not be wet. He will fight people in the cause of Islam, will break the Cross and kill the swine and will abolish jizyah; and Allah will put an end to all communities in his time except Islam; and he will slay the Antichrist (Dajjal); and he will stay in the world for 40 years; then will die and the Muslims will offer the funeral Prayer for him." (Abu Da'ud and Ahmad).
5. "... then Jesus son of Mary will descend. The leader of the Muslims will say to him, 'Come, lead us in the Prayer', but he will say, 'No: you yourselves are leaders over one another." C This he will say in view of the honour that Allah has bestowed on this Community." (Muslim and Ahmad).
6. The Holy Prophet (while relating the story of the Dajjal) said: "At that time suddenly Jesus son of Mary (on whom be peace) shall appear among the Muslims. Then the people will stand up for the Prayer, and he will be asked, 'Step forward, 0h Spirit of Allah (and lead us in the Prayer); but he will say, 'No: your own leader should step forward and lead the Prayer.' Then, after offering the Morning Prayer, the Muslims shall go forth to fight the Dajjal.' He said, 'When the liar will see Jesus, he will start dissolving like the salt in water. Then Jesus will advance towards him and will slay him; and it will so happen that the trees and the stones will cry out: '0h Spirit of Allah, here is a Jew hiding behind me.' None will be left from among the followers of the Dajjal, whom he (i.e. Jesus) will not kill." (Ahmad).
7. "In the mean time when the Dajjal will be busy doing this and this, Allah will send down Messiah son of Mary, and he will descend in the eastern part of Damascus, near the white minaret (tower), dressed in the two yellow garments, with his hands resting on the arms of two angels. When he will bend down his head, water drops will appear trickling down, and when he will raise it, it will appear as though pearl--like drops are rolling down. Any disbeliever whom the air of his breath reaches--and it will reach up to the last limit of his sight will fall dead. Then the son of Mary will go in pursuit of the Dajjal, and will overtake him at the gate of Lod, D and will kill him." (Muslim, Abu Da'ud: Kitab, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah).
8. "The Daijal will appear in my Ummah (nation), and will live for forty (I do not know whether he said 40 days, or 40 months or 40 years). Then Allah will send Jesus son of Mary. He will closely resemble 'Urwah Bin Mas'ud (a Companion). He will pursue him and kill him. Then for seven years the people will live in such a state that no ill-will and enmity will exist between any two of them." (Muslim).
9. Then in the morning Jesus son of Mary will join the Muslims, and Allah will cause the Dajjal and his hosts to be routed, until the walls and the roots of the trees will call 'out: "0h believer, here is a disbeliever hidden behind me: come and kill him." (Ahmad, Hakem).
10. Then Jesus (on whom be peace) will descend, and Allah will cause the Dajjal to be killed near the mountain pass of Afiq. E (Ahmad).
11. Exactly at the time when the Imam of the Muslims will have stepped forward to lead them in the Morning Prayer, Jesus son of Mary shall descend upon them. The Imam will step back so that Jesus may step forward (to lead the Prayer), but Jesus, placing his hand between his two shoulders, will say, "No, you should lead, for the congregation has assembled to follow you. So, the Imam will lead the Prayer. After the salutation, Jesus will say, "Open the gate;" so the gate will be opened. Outside there will be the Dajjal along with 70,000 of the armed Jews. As soon as he will look at Jesus (upon whom be peace) he will start melting like the salt in water, and will flee. Jesus will say, "I shall strike you a blow which will not let you live." And he will overtake him at the eastern gate of Lod, and Allah will cause the Jews to be defeated.... And the earth will be so filled with the Muslims as a vessel is filled with water. The entire world shall recite and follow one and the same Kalimah (word) and none shall be worshipped except Allah." (Ibn Majah).
12. The Dajjal would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan (in Iran) wearing Persian shawls.
13. How will you be when the Son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel. (Bukhari)
14. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, Ibn Maryam (Jesus Christ) would certainly pronounce Talbiyah for Hajj or for Umrah or for both (simultaneously as a Qarin) in the valley of Rawha.(Muslim)
15. Narrated Umm Sharik: I heard Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: The people would run away from the Dajjal seeking shelter in the mountains. She said: Where would be the Arabs then on the day? He said: They would be small in number.
16. The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

The following ahadith also explain the Middle East crisis. Abu Huraira reported Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:

1. The last hour would not come before the Euphrates (river) uncovers a mountain of gold for which people will fight. Ninety-nine out of each one hundred would die but every man amongst them would say that perhaps he would be the one who would be saved (and thus possess the gold). (Muslim)
2. The Last Hour would not come until the Romans would land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq.An army consisting of the best (soldiers)of the people of the earth (An international army?) at that time will come from Medina (to oppose them).
   When they will arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans (i.e. All the white Europeans including the Americans)would say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight with them; and the Muslims would say: Nay, by Allah, we would never get aside from you and from our brethren that you may fight them.
   They will then fight and a third (part)of the army would run away, whom Allah will never forgive. A third (part of the army), which would be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eye, would be killed and the third who would never be put to trial would win and they would be conquerors of Constantinople (the capital of the Romans --- can be any city).
   As they would be busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves)after hanging their swords by the olive trees, the Satan would cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your family. They would then come out, but it would be of no avail. And when they would come to Al-Sham (Damascus or Syria), he would come out while they would be still preparing themselves for battle drawing up the ranks.
   Certainly, the time of prayer shall come and then Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary would descend and would lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah would see him, it would (disappear) just as the salt dissolves itself in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely, but Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ).(Muslim)

Downfall of the Zionists and Israel


While the Zionists (Christian and Jewish) never get tired of quoting the Covenant of God with Abraham mentioned in the Bible, in their attempts to legitimize occupation of Palestine by forcing millions of Palestinians out of their homes, they somehow "forgot" to mention the fact that the children of Ishmael also become beneficiary to this Covenant according to the same Bible they claim to believe in. (Genesis 21)

As Dr. Mary Weaver, Professor of Religious Studies at Indiana University writes, "Abraham did have a son (two in fact), though the first, Ishmael, drops out of the story."

Although Ishmael and his descendents were also included, but-this was qualified for both sons of Israel and sons of Ishmael with obedience!
Since the Jews fail to accept Jesus (peace be upon him) as the true Messiah, which both Christians and Muslims know to be the truth, the Antichrist will arise as their "Messiah". The shrewd false Messiah will take advantage of the insidious Zionist military expansionist fervor ultimately leading to the downfall of the Zionists.

Already Muslims have been mercilessly expelled from Palestine while Zionists in their bloodthirsty lust for land and power are not' satisfied with Palestine. In their arrogance they openly admit that they want all of Syria, all of Lebanon, all of Jordan in addition to Iraq, Iskenderun from Turkey, the Sinai, and the Delta area from Egypt and the upper Hejaz and Najd from Saudi Arabia. Yes, they even want the holy city of Medinah.

According to the Hadith No.11 it is very clear that the Antichrist will enter Syria followed by 70,000 armed Zionists to position himself in Damascus. One morning, Jesus (pbuh) will descend in the eastern part of Damascus near a white minaret to begin the holy campaign against the false messiah. The Antichrist will flee towards Israel through the Afiq Pass, but Jesus (pbuh) will overtake him and destroy him at the airfield in Lod just 13 miles south east of Tel-Aviv. The Israelites will be destroyed putting an end to their treacherous community; whereas with the destruction of the Cross, all the religious communities will merge into the single community of Islam.
Notice that according to a hadith, one of the signs before the Resurrection will be Gog and Magog. Remember also that the Bible associates Gog with Meshech (Moscow) and Tubal (Tubalsek), which will come from the north invading Israel amid earthquakes, fire, and brimstone. According to Maududi, Gog and Magog will be let loose in the sense that they will swoop down on the regions of the earth like a beast of prey which is set free from its cage suddenly. (See Qur'an Al-Anbiyaa 94-l03.) The Qur'an also mentions Gog and Magog in relation to the Day of Resurrection.

They said: "0 Zul-qarnaini. The Gog and Magog (people) do great mischief on earth: Shall we then render thee tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between us and them? He said: "(The power) in which my Lord has established me is better (than tribute): Help me therefore with strength (And labour): I will. erect a strong barrier between you and them: "Bring me blocks of iron." At length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountain-sides, he said, "Blow (with your bellows" Then, when he had made it (red) as fire, he said: "Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead." Thus were they made powerless to scale it or to dig through it. He said: "This is a mercy from my Lord: But when the promise of my Lord comes to pass He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true." On that day We shall leave them (Gog and Magog-Yajooj and Majooj) to surge like waves on one another: The trumpet will be blown and We shall collect them all together. And We shall present Hell that day for Unbelievers to see, all spread out,-(Unbelievers) whose eyes had been under a veil from remembrance of Me, and who had been unable even to hear?.
(Sura 94:101)

Note: Gog and Magog are generally believed to be the wild tribes of Central and Northeastern Asia including the Tartars, Mongols, Huns, and Scythians. This isFalse! This belief contradicts with many Hadeeths. Gog and Magog (Ya'juj & Ma'juj) are hidden peolple from us.

------------------------------ Notes ------------------------------

A In other words it means: "All kinds of differences among the communities will disappear and human beings will join one community, the Community of Islam; thus, war will be put to an end to, and jizyah will cease to be imposed."
B A place at a distance of 35 miles from Madinah.
C 'That is, "Your leader should be from among yourselves."
D Lod (Lydda) is situated 13 miles south-east of Tel-Aviv, Capital of Israel, and is the most important airport of the country.
E Afiq (mod. Fiq) is the last Syrian city on the border between Syria and Israel. A little further on towards west at a few miles is the Lake Tiberias (Sea of Galilea), the source of River Jordan. Towards the south-west in the mountains is a low pass, which descends about 2,000 feet to the point from where River Jordan comes out from Lake Tiberias. This same mountain path is called 'Aqabah Afiq the pass of Afiq'.

http://islamicweb.com/history/ww3.htm

wow, thanks for that post! I was just asking myself what Islams veiw of this matter would be, ....and hoping you would be the one posting....weird.

Your posts are in-depth and a great learning tool for me:D

God be with you.

[جوري]

wow, thanks for that post! I was just asking myself what Islams veiw of this matter would be, ....and hoping you would be the one posting....weird.

Your posts are in-depth and a great learning tool for me:D

God be with you.

I can't take credit for it though I agree fully-- but thanks..

peace

[mkh4JC]

Yes it was when i used to take part in discussions in another forum called ummah forum. He said that Christians do not have to believe in all of the Bible.

When i read Supreme's statement on not being a fan of revelation it reminded me of what that person had said.

Statements like that are blasphemous in Islam because we believe in the Qur'an in its entirety.

You do have to and are supposed to believe in Revelation if you are a Christian, though because of the content of the book some professing Christians take the position that the events have already happened, that they are metaphorical, and yet still others believe they are predicting future events.

[Grace Seeker]

Is'nt that blasphemous to make such a remark about a book which is supposed to be 'divine' in your religion?

No.

First the book of Revelation is not divine. God is divine, books are not. Books are at best the revelation of the divine.


Second, blasphemy is related to how we treat and respond to God himself. While of course it is wrong to be contemptuous toward any of the things of God or created by God (this would included people, btw), it is not necessarily blasphemous to do so.

[Hamza Asadullah]

No.

First the book of Revelation is not divine. God is divine, books are not. Books are at best the revelation of the divine.


Second, blasphemy is related to how we treat and respond to God himself. While of course it is wrong to be contemptuous toward any of the things of God or created by God (this would included people, btw), it is not necessarily blasphemous to do so.

So what part of the Bible are Gods words?

[Grace Seeker]

So what part of the Bible are Gods words?

None of it. (Note: There will be Christians who disagree with me with regard to this statement.) The Bible is not a book dictated by God, but a book written by men who were inspired to write of God as they best understood his revelation. (Well, I shouldn't have said none of it, there a places where the prophets report that they are saying what God told them to say. In those cases the words of the prophets and God's words would have been the same.)

And all of it. All of it has it's source in God's revelation to mankind. But it isn't a book like the Qur'an which claims to be the dictated work of God. If that is what you are looking for, then you're going to be disappointed with the Bible. But it still is a God's instrument for guiding people into relationship with him and able to direct us in the practice of our faith and life.

For instance, when it says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth..." that isn't God speaking, that is the voice of Moses (or another ancient Jewish author) who expresses his understanding of the origins of the earth as he best understands it based on his knowledge of God as experienced in his own life. Tradition holds that such verses are the product of Moses' hand (or at least his oversight in compilation), then though they may not be the dictated words of God, they still bear the full force of the weight of God who revealed himself to Moses.

Other passages such as the stories of Samuel, Saul, or David in the historical books of Samuel, Kings and Chronicles likewise have similar marks of being the work of inspired men who were nonetheless very human writers. The books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not meant to even be received as biographies, but have the unique category of "Gospel" a term taken from the opening of Mark's book: "The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Mark 1:1) meaning a story of the good news, as it says, about Jesus Christ, not a record of the life of Jesus or even of his teachings. So, these aren't God's words to us, but man's words about God and what God has done, is doing, and will continue to do, plus some guidance for holy living found in the letters perserved by the church and later adopted as scripture.

Of course, the Hadith of the Prophet (p) is hardly the words of God either (nor does it claim to be), but that doesn't keep Muslims from viewing it as authoritative with regard to their faith and practice. So, why should Muslims be surprised that we can view a book of our scriptures as authoritative for faith and practice even if it isn't the dictated work of God to humankind.

[Hamza Asadullah]

None of it. The Bible is not a book dictated by God, but a book written by men who were inspired to write of God as they best understood his revelation. (Well, I shouldn't have said none of it, there a places where the prophets report that they are saying what God told them to say. In those cases the words of the prophets and God's words would have been the same.)


And all of it. All of it has it's source in God's revelation to mankind. But it isn't a book like the Qur'an which claims to be the dictated work of God. If that is what you are looking for, then you're going to be disappointed with the Bible. But it still is a God's instrument for guiding people into relationship with him and able to direct us in the practice of our faith and life.

The stories of the Prophets as i understand are in the old testament But in regards to the new testament and Gospels then who gave those radnom men the right to write the teachings of God and Jesus when they never met Jesus and were'nt prophets or divinley inspired in anyway?

Also why are the authors of the Gospels unknown by Christian scholars? They also do not know the exact dates of when the Gospels were written. Hope you don't mind me asking these questions.

[Grace Seeker]

The stories of the Prophets as i understand are in the old testament But in regards to the new testament and Gospels then who gave those radnom men the right to write the teachings of God and Jesus when they never met Jesus and were'nt prophets or divinley inspired in anyway?

Who says they are writing the teachings of God? You said that. I was editting my previous response while you posted it. You'll note I have a wholly different take on what the New Testament is even intended to be than you presuppose for it.

The Gospel writers didn't need some one to give them permission to write what they wrote. They wrote to inform the church as best they could using the information that was available to them. Some of them (at the very least John), I believe, were indeed disciples of Jesus and could provide first-hand testimony to much of what they wrote. All of the others were written in the first generation of the church and had available to them the oral tradition of the church. I also suspect that there were collected stories and sayings of Jesus in circulation that Matthew, Mark, and Luke all appeared to have used to some extent. Mark appears to have been from Jerusalem and probably had some first-hand exposure to a few of these events, and according to tradition was a disciple of Peter. Luke made every effort to be a historian in collecting his information before writing. And Matthew may or may not have been a disciple; I don't know. And as for them being divinely inspired, though I can't prove it, as a point of faith I would argue that they indeed were.

Also why are the authors of the Gospels unknown by Christian scholars? They also do not know the exact dates of when the Gospels were written. Hope you don't mind me asking these questions.

No, we don't know the exact dates when they were written, but we don't know the exact dates of the writing of even major modern documents like the Declaration of Independence. What we do know is that all of them were completed by the end of the first century, for they are already being quoted by the church fathers in the early second century. As to their authorship, some academics make names for themselves by publishing their doubts. Tradition has long held to the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John with these identities established during the lifetime of people who would have known their actual authors. Either they are correct, the early church didn't care about authorship (highly unlikely as they rejected several alternate gospels simply on the lack of the credibility of claims with regard to authorship), or these early Christians were complicit in fabricating a falsehood that they then passed off onto the rest of the church (an accusation that defies creduality to me).

[Ramadhan]

Back to topic, one of the reasons for Jesus to avoid churches, apart from the obvious man worshipping that is going on in there, is that more and more churches especially in western countries now allow homosexual marriages.
Jesus would be horrified.

[Ramadhan]

Jesus pbuh would also sacrifice animals to feed the poor in fulfillment of Allah command, just like muslims sacrifice animals during iedul adha and during hajj.

[Ramadhan]

One of the reasons that Jesus pbuh would avoid going to churches is that churches are now used to enrich the institutions themselves, or the priests or the evangelists.
Remember the story how Jesus pbuh overturned the tables of moneychangers and other traders and kicked them out of the temple?

Jesus pbuh would most likely go to a mosque to pray and worship God.

[aadil77]

One of the reasons that Jesus pbuh would avoid going to churches is that churches are now used to enrich the institutions themselves, or the priests or the evangelists.
Remember the story how Jesus pbuh overturned the tables of moneychangers and other traders and kicked them out of the temple?

Jesus pbuh would most likely go to a mosque to pray and worship God.

Brother all these things are obvious as he will be following the religion of islam as a muslim, I don't think theres any point discussing it any more

sis skye has posted an article with probably all the hadith and verses available on prophet Isa when he descends.

He will live the rest of his life on earth so it would be obvious that he will be praying at a masjid

[Ramadhan]

Brother all these things are obvious as he will be following the religion of islam as a muslim, I don't think theres any point discussing it any more

sis skye has posted an article with probably all the hadith and verses available on prophet Isa when he descends.

He will live the rest of his life on earth so it would be obvious that he will be praying at a masjid

You are right, these things are obvious to MUSLIMS who can see clearly his true teachings and reconciled his true teachings with what Allah SWT tells us in the Qur'an.

However, these things might not be so obvious to our christians (or any other faith) friends, thats why I am putting it in the comparative religion section.

It seems to me that christians in general had serious difficulty to understand what Jesus pbuh did or taught during his time on earth.
It also seems to me that once Jesus was no longer with us, it was "Hallelujah!" for christians and replaced everything that Jesus taught with their own interpretations and rituals. So this thread is to remind our christian friends what jesus pbuh would do if he lived among us now, based on his real life and his daily practices.

[aadil77]

ok so looks like this is going to be a long thread :)

[tango92]

he will have a nice long beard and a trimmed mustache. he might be a big fan of some nasheeds!

[Supreme]

Back to topic, one of the reasons for Jesus to avoid churches, apart from the obvious man worshipping that is going on in there, is that more and more churches especially in western countries now allow homosexual marriages.
Jesus would be horrified.

Wait, Jesus who loved sinners, who sat with them, who said He had come to seek and save the lost, who forgave others sins? The only thing that ever shocked Jesus was when He found stalls and markets within the Holy Temple. Jesus would not hate or be horrified by anyone, He would be full of compassion and love, He would embrace homosexuals into His arms and invite them to their share of the Kingdom of God/heaven.

[Danah]

Oh wow, really? I can't believe some one would tell you they are allowed and or are not supposed to take it literally?

We are supposed to read the Bible for what it is....The Word Of God. Not to be taken lightly nor interpreted in our on way for our own edefication.

Me too heard by an ex-Christian priest that some Christians believe or said that NT cancel the OT which made me wonder too!!

[mkh4JC]

Me too heard by an ex-Christian priest that some Christians believe or said that NT cancel the OT which made me wonder too!!

No, you can't just believe in the New Testament and discount the Old Testament. You can't understand the New Testament without the Old. You wouldn't understand, for instance, the importance of blood sacrifice for the remission of sins, if you just read the New. Also, there are many prophecies concering the Jewish people, and how God would bring them back into the land of Israel (which he did and is doing) and concerning the time of the end, that have yet to be fulfilled, in the Old Testament. So as a Christian, yes you are supposed to take both the Old and New Testaments and stand on them as truth.

[tango92]

Wait, Jesus who loved sinners, who sat with them, who said He had come to seek and save the lost, who forgave others sins? The only thing that ever shocked Jesus was when He found stalls and markets within the Holy Temple. Jesus would not hate or be horrified by anyone, He would be full of compassion and love, He would embrace homosexuals into His arms and invite them to their share of the Kingdom of God/heaven.

lol! thats the funniest thing ive read all day. are all you christians really living in this bubble of, do what you want cos were forgiven anyway ?

[aadil77]

lol! thats the funniest thing ive read all day. are all you christians really living in this bubble of, do what you want cos were forgiven anyway ?

Its a bubble of 'salvation' to be specific. Then theres this other concept of everyone being a big happy family, plenty of love, embracing, everything is good, nothing is bad, sinners are good because by the time they've finished a certain sin they're already forgiven

[Supreme]

lol! thats the funniest thing ive read all day. are all you christians really living in this bubble of, do what you want cos were forgiven anyway ?

Er no, we just like to think our God is a loving, caring God. Which obviously seems a funny concept to you!

[Hamza Asadullah]

Er no, we just like to think our God is a loving, caring God. Which obviously seems a funny concept to you!

This dogma is not only a denial of the Mercy of God but also of His Justice. To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice.

Firstly, it is not historically correct to say that Jesus had come to die willingly and deliberately for the sins of men. We read in the Bible that he did not wish to die on the cross. For, when he knew that his enemies were plotting against his life, he declared that his "soul was exceedingly sorrowful unto death", he asked his disciples to keep watch over him to protect him from his enemies and he prayed to God, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this from me; nevertheless not what 1 will, but what Thou wilt." (Mark 14:36)

Secondly, we fail to see how the suffering and death of one man can wipe out the sins of others. It sounds something like the physician breaking his own head to cure the headache of his patients. The idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is illogical, meaningless and unjust.

Thirdly, the idea that shedding of blood is necessary to appease the Wrath of God has come into Christianity from the primitive man's image of God as an all-powerful demon. We see no connection at all between sin and blood. What is necessary to wash away sin is not blood but repentance, remorse, persistent struggle against evil inclinations, development of greater sympathy for mankind and determination to carry out the Will of God as revealed to us through the prophets. The Qur'an says:

"To God does not reach the flesh or the blood I of animals they sacrifice), but unto Him is acceptable righteousness on your part" (22:37)

[mkh4JC]

This dogma is not only a denial of the Mercy of God but also of His Justice. To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice.

It is actually not. What it reveals is that God is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. On the cross these two extremes are met. The cross is perfect justice because God punishes sin to the fullest (Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross, for all of humanity's sin) and the cross is perfect mercy because God through the cross redeems all those who put their faith in Christ, liberating them from a life of bondage to sin.

Firstly, it is not historically correct to say that Jesus had come to die willingly and deliberately for the sins of men. We read in the Bible that he did not wish to die on the cross. For, when he knew that his enemies were plotting against his life, he declared that his "soul was exceedingly sorrowful unto death", he asked his disciples to keep watch over him to protect him from his enemies and he prayed to God, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this from me; nevertheless not what 1 will, but what Thou wilt." (Mark 14:36)

And that was just an expression of Jesus' humanity. He was fully God, then he stepped out of eternity and entered into time, and added humanity to his divinity. The reason he said what he said is not because he would die on the cross, but because he would experience the wrath of God on the cross.

Secondly, we fail to see how the suffering and death of one man can wipe out the sins of others. It sounds something like the physician breaking his own head to cure the headache of his patients. The idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is illogical, meaningless and unjust.

You fail to see because you are yet dead in your trespasses and sins. The Bible teaches that man is born depraved, hopelessly lost in sin, and that because of this those who are in sin will think that the things of God are foolishness.

'For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destory the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.' I Corinthians 1: 18-29.

Thirdly, the idea that shedding of blood is necessary to appease the Wrath of God has come into Christianity from the primitive man's image of God as an all-powerful demon. We see no connection at all between sin and blood. What is necessary to wash away sin is not blood but repentance, remorse, persistent struggle against evil inclinations, development of greater sympathy for mankind and determination to carry out the Will of God as revealed to us through the prophets. The Qur'an says:

As I said earlier, the cross will seem like foolishness to those who are dead in trespasses in sins. But in the Old Testament it was God who introduced blood sacrifice for the remission of sins, not just to the the Israelites, but to all people. Here's what's in Levitcus 17 verse 11:

'For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.'

What happend on the cross is that Jesus shed his blood (life) and bore all of humanity's sin debt. Because he lived the perfect life those who accept him are then delivered from all the things that they were bound with while they were in their sins, so that they can begin to live a life of holiness, and you also receive Christ's perfect righteousness, because God demands perfection from us.

What you need to understand is, that we are all born in sin and with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, God changes your nature, you are allowed to partake of his divine nature and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it. This is one of the major differences between Christianity and other religions.

[tango92]

you see if god forgives everything then why does the bible even acknowledge sin? the bible is essentially a christian book, if you guys are pre forgiven then why even make it a sin to be gay etc ?

after all gays arent hurting anyone right? so this is only a crime they commit against themselves and god, no need for justice here. why would an ALL loving god make someone feel bad for being gay?

[Hamza Asadullah]

It is actually not. What it reveals is that God is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. On the cross these two extremes are met. The cross is perfect justice because God punishes sin to the fullest (Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross, for all of humanity's sin) and the cross is perfect mercy because God through the cross redeems all those who put their faith in Christ, liberating them from a life of bondage to sin.



And that was just an expression of Jesus' humanity. He was fully God, then he stepped out of eternity and entered into time, and added humanity to his divinity. The reason he said what he said is not because he would die on the cross, but because he would experience the wrath of God on the cross.



You fail to see because you are yet dead in your trespasses and sins. The Bible teaches that man is born depraved, hopelessly lost in sin, and that because of this those who are in sin will think that the things of God are foolishness.

'For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destory the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.' I Corinthians 1: 18-29.



As I said earlier, the cross will seem like foolishness to those who are dead in trespasses in sins. But in the Old Testament it was God who introduced blood sacrifice for the remission of sins, not just to the the Israelites, but to all people. Here's what's in Levitcus 17 verse 11:

'For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.'

What happend on the cross is that Jesus shed his blood (life) and bore all of humanity's sin debt. Because he lived the perfect life those who accept him are then delivered from all the things that they were bound with while they were in their sins, so that they can begin to live a life of holiness, and you also receive Christ's perfect righteousness, because God demands perfection from us.

What you need to understand is, that we are all born in sin and with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, God changes your nature, you are allowed to partake of his divine nature and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it. This is one of the major differences between Christianity and other religions.

So what is the fate of homosexual Christians and Christians who are rapists and murderers? Will they gain eternal salvation because they are believers in Christ?

[Supreme]

you see if god forgives everything then why does the bible even acknowledge sin? the bible is essentially a christian book, if you guys are pre forgiven then why even make it a sin to be gay etc ?

after all gays arent hurting anyone right? so this is only a crime they commit against themselves and god, no need for justice here. why would an ALL loving god make someone feel bad for being gay?

God doesn't forgive everything, He only forgives the sins of those who repent and accept Christ's sacrifice. Also, not everything is forgiven, as Jesus names the unforgivable sin:

30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

(Matthew 12:30-32)

It is also worth noting that even through Christ's sacrifice not everyone will be forgiven. God shall choose to forgive whomever He wants, however, by accepting salvation through Jesus, Christian theology suggests that one has a far greater chance of being forgiven.

This dogma is not only a denial of the Mercy of God but also of His Justice. To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice.

Firstly, it is not historically correct to say that Jesus had come to die willingly and deliberately for the sins of men. We read in the Bible that he did not wish to die on the cross. For, when he knew that his enemies were plotting against his life, he declared that his "soul was exceedingly sorrowful unto death", he asked his disciples to keep watch over him to protect him from his enemies and he prayed to God, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this from me; nevertheless not what 1 will, but what Thou wilt." (Mark 14:36)

Secondly, we fail to see how the suffering and death of one man can wipe out the sins of others. It sounds something like the physician breaking his own head to cure the headache of his patients. The idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is illogical, meaningless and unjust.

Thirdly, the idea that shedding of blood is necessary to appease the Wrath of God has come into Christianity from the primitive man's image of God as an all-powerful demon. We see no connection at all between sin and blood. What is necessary to wash away sin is not blood but repentance, remorse, persistent struggle against evil inclinations, development of greater sympathy for mankind and determination to carry out the Will of God as revealed to us through the prophets. The Qur'an says:

"To God does not reach the flesh or the blood I of animals they sacrifice), but unto Him is acceptable righteousness on your part" (22:37)

Sorry, I'm a little tired- exactly which part of this post relates to my claim that God is love?

[Grace Seeker]

lol! thats the funniest thing ive read all day. are all you christians really living in this bubble of, do what you want cos were forgiven anyway ?

No, we are not! It isn't that you can do whatever you want. Homosexual behavior is a sin (as is heterosexual behavior outside of marriage, coveting other people's possessions, not loving your neighbor, making anything or anyone of more importance than God in one's life, just to name a few). And unconfessed, unrepented sin leads to seperation from God. But we do believe that there is no sin (other than turning your back on God's offer of salvation itself) that cannot be forgiven. God is the reconciling business; he didn't send Jesus to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

[Danah]

No, you can't just believe in the New Testament and discount the Old Testament. You can't understand the New Testament without the Old. You wouldn't understand, for instance, the importance of blood sacrifice for the remission of sins, if you just read the New. Also, there are many prophecies concering the Jewish people, and how God would bring them back into the land of Israel (which he did and is doing) and concerning the time of the end, that have yet to be fulfilled, in the Old Testament. So as a Christian, yes you are supposed to take both the Old and New Testaments and stand on them as truth.

I was surprised by that too, as if they were picking what they like. It seems that this group is really existed but not recognized by the majority of the Christianity followers

Er no, we just like to think our God is a loving, caring God. Which obviously seems a funny concept to you!

Not funny but more like illogical to be more accurate. Just what kind of society we will be living in when we will know already that all our sins are forgiven, There will be nothing to prevent them from doing evil because they know that there sins will be forgiven.

[Supreme]

No, we are not! It isn't that you can do whatever you want. Homosexual behavior is a sin (as is heterosexual behavior outside of marriage, coveting other people's possessions, not loving your neighbor, making anything or anyone of more importance than God in one's life, just to name a few). And unconfessed, unrepented sin leads to seperation from God. But we do believe that there is no sin (other than turning your back on God's offer of salvation itself) that cannot be forgiven. God is the reconciling business; he didn't send Jesus to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

*Ahem*- just a minor correction- blasphemy against the Spirit is the unforgivable sin.

Not funny but more like illogical to be more accurate. Just what kind of society we will be living in when we will know already that all our sins are forgiven, There will be nothing to prevent them from doing evil because they know that there sins will be forgiven.

Christians don't do that either, because that would take the sacrifice of Jesus in vain. And God doesn't like His sacrifices being taken in vain very much.

[mkh4JC]

So what is the fate of homosexual Christians and Christians who are rapists and murderers? Will they gain eternal salvation because they are believers in Christ?

Well, here's what Paul said in Romans 6: 1-2.

'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?'

If you are a homosexual or a rapist, there is still hope for you in Christ. You don't have to live a lifestyle like that is what I am getting at. The question you seem to be asking is, can you be a Christian and live a life like a homosexual or rapist. Now, it's true that even Christians can fall back into sin after having been redeemed, but it is not possible to continue living in that kind of lifestyle after having known Christ, as God will discipline you and discipline you unto death if needs be.

What I am saying is, there is no such thing as a continually carnal (sinful) Christian.

[Hamza Asadullah]

No, we are not! It isn't that you can do whatever you want. Homosexual behavior is a sin (as is heterosexual behavior outside of marriage, coveting other people's possessions, not loving your neighbor, making anything or anyone of more importance than God in one's life, just to name a few). And unconfessed, unrepented sin leads to seperation from God. But we do believe that there is no sin (other than turning your back on God's offer of salvation itself) that cannot be forgiven. God is the reconciling business; he didn't send Jesus to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

If the blood of God led to the atonement of sins then why is there any need to ask for forgiveness if the sin of man is already forgiven by the blood atonement of sins?

[Hamza Asadullah]

Well, here's what Paul said in Romans 6: 1-2.

'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?'

If you are a homosexual or a rapist, there is still hope for you in Christ. You don't have to live a lifestyle like that is what I am getting at. The question you seem to be asking is, can you be a Christian and live a life like a homosexual or rapist. Now, it's true that even Christians can fall back into sin after having been redeemed, but it is not possible to continue living in that kind of lifestyle after having known Christ, as God will discipline you and discipline you unto death if needs be.

What I am saying is, there is no such thing as a continually carnal (sinful) Christian.

If the rapist, homosexual or murderer died believers in Jesus then will they be saved?

[Grace Seeker]

you see if god forgives everything then why does the bible even acknowledge sin? the bible is essentially a christian book, if you guys are pre forgiven then why even make it a sin to be gay etc ?

after all gays arent hurting anyone right? so this is only a crime they commit against themselves and god, no need for justice here. why would an ALL loving god make someone feel bad for being gay?

Hey, guess what? You are "pre-forgiven" too. (Though I would have chosen a different term.) Jesus offering of his life is the guarantee of forgiveness of our sin and reconciliation with God for all who will enter into this new covenant relationship with humanity that God has made in Jesus Christ. The idea that one can save one's self by being good enough for God is a fallacy. If you're trying to do good works to make the scales of balance tip to your side you are going to live a life of frustration, because none of us are good enough for God, not even the total accumulation of all of humanities good works can atone for a single act of disobedience or self-absorbtion, two things which we are all from time to time guilty of. So, by our own merit, none of us, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, secular humanist can be saved, nor do we deserve it. It is available only as a gift, and that gift is offered to each and every one of us in and through the life of Jesus Christ. So, whether you accept it or not is up to you, but from God's perspective, we've all already been forgiven he's just waiting for us to realize it and then live out a life reflective of that in the way we relate to him and one another.

[tango92]

No, we are not! It isn't that you can do whatever you want. Homosexual behavior is a sin (as is heterosexual behavior outside of marriage, coveting other people's possessions, not loving your neighbor, making anything or anyone of more importance than God in one's life, just to name a few). And unconfessed, unrepented sin leads to seperation from God. But we do believe that there is no sin (other than turning your back on God's offer of salvation itself) that cannot be forgiven. God is the reconciling business; he didn't send Jesus to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

does repentance have to be genuine? or as long as you believe in jesus' crucifixion and repent anyhow your forgiven?

and see if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry?


well thats a QFT if i ever saw one.
am i to understand from your edit that asking for forgiveness is not required. simply belief in the crucifixion of jesus ?

[mkh4JC]

If the rapist, homosexual or murderer died believers in Jesus then will they be saved?

Firstly, if someone who claims to be Christian does something to the extreme of murder then I question whether they were really saved to begin with, just based on how I know God works in the life of believers. And there are differing views from Christians on this issue. Some say if you fall into sin and never confess it that you can lose your salvation, others say that you are saved regardless, and that God will just end your life, since you refuse to be disciplined by him. I know from my own life that as a Christian if you sin God will chasten you sore for it, as when I first accepted Christ back in the summer of 2002 I sinned, and I have been suffering under God's discipline ever since. But in the book of Hebrews it is taught at the very least that if you won't live under the discipline that God has placed in your life that he will just end your life.

[Predator]

It is actually not. What it reveals is that God is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. On the cross these two extremes are met. The cross is perfect justice because God punishes sin to the fullest (Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross, for all of humanity's sin) and the cross is perfect mercy because God through the cross redeems all those who put their faith in Christ, liberating them from a life of bondage to sin.

And What kind of mercy and Justice is this , that he cant punish the sinners and he takes his own inncent Son and sacrifices him on the cross. Do you call that Justice ?

And No it sounds more like you are passed all your sins as if it were a blame to an innocent man as if he were a scapegoat , so that you can make things easy for yourself and do whatever you like when your bible says the opposite


Ezekiel 18:20

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die

We the Children of Adam will not be questioned , about why adam Adam committed a sin by eating the forbidden fruit and similarly Adam will not be questioned by God for the sins of his children- the gays, the murderers etc

And if you do good , u earn a reward and if you sin , u get punished if you dont repent .Its as simple as that

Thats is Islam and the same is stated by the Hindu law of Karma , no one pays for anybody sins and as Hamza said We read in the Bible that Jesus did not wish to die on the cross.and when he knew that his enemies were plotting against his life and he prayed to God to save him from the Death and angels had appeared strengthening him
.

Is this how Jesus prepares for suicide and sacrifice ?

[Grace Seeker]

There will be nothing to prevent them from doing evil because they know that there sins will be forgiven.

Sure there is. People who have experienced God's forgiving love are called to a new way of living that is holy as he is holy and that expresses the love he has for the world to others. Christians are not free to continue sinning.

[Grace Seeker]

*Ahem*- just a minor correction- blasphemy against the Spirit is the unforgivable sin.

And when one remembers that the work of the Holy Spirit is to lead people into a relationship with God in Jesus Christ, that sin results in exactly what I described -- turning one's back on God's offer of salvation. That is why the act of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is called the unforgivable sin, because of the natural consequences which occur when one is committing it.

[Grace Seeker]

If the blood of God led to the atonement of sins then why is there any need to ask for forgiveness if the sin of man is already forgiven by the blood atonement of sins?

Because the new covenant is not some magic act. Christ's offering is universal in nature, available to all, but God does not run roughshod over people. People voluntarily enter into this new covenant that God makes with us. So, it isn't so much that we are asking for forgiveness (though that might be how some people express themselves), but that we confess that we are sinners and need to change. That means repentance, which is much more than just confession or asking for forgiveness, repentance also means a change in direction. In other words, we begin to live new lives. Not in our own power, because again we would fail, but in the power of God who makes himself available to help us live lives submitted to him through the presence of his indwelling Holy Spirit (which gets back to what both Supreme and I were talking about in terms of the important place of the Holy Spirit in our salvation experience).

[Supreme]

And What kind of mercy and Justice is this , that he cant punish the sinners and he takes his own inncent Son and sacrifices him on the cross. Do you call that Justice ?

Not only would I call it justice, I would also call it admirable. If I had one child whom I loved more than anything, yet had to sacrifice him for the wellbeing and good future of every soul on Earth, I for one would not do it. But God did it. What an admirable, enviable, great God.

[glo]

People who have experienced God's forgiving love are called to a new way of living that is holy as he is holy and that expresses the love he has for the world to others.

That's nicely put, Grace Seeker. :statisfie
Nothing else left to say, really.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Not only would I call it justice, I would also call it admirable. If I had one child whom I loved more than anything, yet had to sacrifice him for the wellbeing and good future of every soul on Earth, I for one would not do it. But God did it. What an admirable, enviable, great God.

The doctrine of the Atonement makes the First Person of Godhead into a blood-thirsty tyrant in order to demonstrate the self-sacrificing love of the Second Person. To a dispassionate critic, the sacrifice of the Second Person appears as much misplaced and meaningless as the demand of the First Person is cruel and sadistic.

Arthur Weigall makes the following significant comment on the doctrine of the Atonement:

"We can no longer accept the appalling theological doctrine that for some mystic reason a propitiatory sacrifice was necessary. It outrages either our conception of God as Almighty or else our conception of Him as All-Loving.

The famous Dr. Cruden believed that for the : purpose of this sacrifice 'Christ suffered dreadful pains inflicted by God', and this of course, is a standpoint which nauseates the modem mind and which may well be termed a hideous doctrine, not unconnected with the sadistic tendencies of primitive human nature. Actually, it is of pagan origin, being, indeed, perhaps the most obvious relic of heathendom in the Faith."

The Christian scheme of salvation is not only morally and rationally unsound, but also has no support of the words of Jesus. Jesus may be said to have suffered for the sins of men in the sense that, in order to take them out of darkness into light, he incurred the wrath of the evildoers and was tortured by them; but that does not mean that his death was an atonement for the sins of others and that only those who believe in his blood would be forgiven.

Jesus had come to rescue men from sin by his teaching and the example of his religiously devoted life to the commands of God, and not by deliberately dying for them on the cross and offering his blood as a propitiation for their sins. When a young man came and asked him "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" he mentioned nothing about his atoning sacrifice and the redeeming power of Iris blood. His reply was the same as that of every other prophet. For he said: "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God; but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
(Matthew 19:17)

"Keep the commandments" that, according to Jesus, was the way to eternal life. Salvation could be gained by believing in God, eschewing evil and doing good, and not by accepting Jesus as the redeemer and believing in his blood atonement.

[tango92]

see if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry?

[Predator]

What an admirable, enviable, great God.

Yeah an unjust God , do u call that Love , killing an innocent Man?

Someone murders your wife and daughter , parents, , destroys your home and what would you do , instead of punishing the evil doers , and you Go kill your own son , does that make any sense

[Supreme]

Yeah an unjust God , do u call that Love , killing an innocent Man?

Yes, I call that love. I couldn't think of a more loving act. It is as Jesus defined love:

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command.

(John 15:13-14)

If this is how we define love, God gave up His life on Earth for His friends (ie followers) out of love. So yes, I could not imagine a more loving act, certainly there could be no sign of greater love.

[tango92]

does any christian have an answer to my above question?

[Hamza Asadullah]

If this is how we define love, God gave up His life on Earth for His friends (ie followers) out of love. So yes, I could not imagine a more loving act, certainly there could be no sign of greater love.

Why does God need to come to the earth to atone the sins of his own creations? That is a pagan belief as is the trinity.

God is beyond needing to kill himself so that his own creations can be free of sin. No man is free of sin. If man is sinful by nature then how can atonement alone free him from sin?

Why does God need to be born a human out of a women and be suckled and excrete and eat and drink in order to survive and procreate. These are human attributes and God is beyond the attributes given to a human.

Why lower God? He is too high to be lowered like this! These were NEVER beliefs that Jesus taught for those after him twisted his message and words as was described in the Dideche.

Why does a price have to be paid for? Why can't we just repent and have God forgive us for our sins just like how Jesus taught in Matthew 6:12?

Humans are sinning against God, so God becomes a human being and then punishes himself because of what we did? There is no logic to this what so ever.

God does not need to become a human being in order to show us how to live. This is why he sends down messengers because that is their job.

[Grace Seeker]

does repentance have to be genuine? or as long as you believe in jesus' crucifixion and repent anyhow your forgiven?

and see if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry?


well thats a QFT if i ever saw one.
am i to understand from your edit that asking for forgiveness is not required. simply belief in the crucifixion of jesus ?

I don't know what you mean by QFT, so I can't speak to that.

If you understand "belief" as some sort of head knowledge, then the answer is NO. I'm sure that Pontius Pilate believed in the crucifixion of Jesus. So, that is not what we mean. Belief is an attitude of trust, and that requires living in a relationship. In relationship things must indeed be genuine. We mean that you have to trust in the efficacy of what Christ did, that in Christ God is acting to create a new way of living. And then if one enters into that new way, it will of course be expressed in one's life. The key is that one lives out this new relationship that one has with God in and through Jesus Christ. It finds experssion in all that one does.

(Those who don't like long answers should stop right here, because it is going to get long and involved.)


The key is that one lives out this new relationship that one has with God in and through Jesus Christ. It finds experssion in all that one does. One recognizes that "God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36). This statement declares several things, but chief among them is that we recognize Jesus as Lord. This is a term that as used in this context was a direct confrontation with the empirial concept that Ceasar was "Lord of all."

The proclamation of Jesus as the Christ is to say that he is the Jewish Messiah who brings in the culmination of a new eschatological era in which God is going to set all things right. The proclamation of him as Lord is to say that Ceasar is NOT Lord. Ceasar in NOT in control of this world. God is in control. And in Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, we have one who has come to reorder the systems of this world into one that reflects not the petty squabblings of people, each bent on their own various agendas, desires, and even vices. But rather we are called to live lives that give evidence of lives that place God at the pinnacle of all we give allegiance to and all we seek. God grants that when we make Jesus #1 in our lives that he receives it as making him #1.

Because we are united to one another in God through Jesus, there are to be no more divisions between us based on things like age, sex, nationality, ethnicity, or (dare I say) even creed. God is claiming all of us, whether we like it or not. Make something else in your life more important than your allegiance to God and his claims on your life (in Islamic terms, be unsubmissive) and you are resisting not just the law of God, but God himself. Those who resist are in a state of rebellion, and such rebellion will be dealt with as all rebels have always been dealt with. But lay down your arms, quit being in rebellion, and there is a place for you.

Now, what you mention about the injustice of God forgiving what I have done to another is a good question. But we have to begin by remembering that any injustice done to another person is once again evidence of our rebellion against God. We need to quit that status. AND we also need to go and seek reconcilation with those that we have hurt along the way. In our human relationship this might require reparations or even more. But in terms of our relationship with God, it means we need to get back on track with doing the right thing AND doing it for the right reason.

Curiously, despite the preaching of many evangelists, that reason is not to selfishly seek our own salvation (that is a consequence of doing the right thing, but it should not be the motivation for it); the reason we do the right thing is to glorify God and lift up his name. As we live lives fully submitted to God and his will, we bring glory to him. He is the be all and end all and ultimately the only reason for our existence. We should never make salvation about us, but should make it about God. Only when we honor and serve him, and truly live with him as the one and only LORD of our lives, can we say that we are living in the relationship with him that he wants to have with us.

So, that precludes the conditions that you speak of where a person decides that they shall "believe in Jesus" and then go about doing whatever they want. Such a person is fooling themselves. He/she is NOT a Christian. Of course, even those who truly desire to live the godly life connected with God through Christ are going to stumble and fall. It is with regard to these people that have a heart set for God, but that still find themselves not perfectly living the holy and righteous life that God calls us to, that we remember that Christ died for all of our sins. So, we remember that we are forgiven (pre-forgiven if you want), confess our sins, and repent by returning back to living holy lives offered to God. But this in no way should be understood as a license to sin, for every sin is grevious to God and is the moral equivalent of crucifiying Christ again. Christians need to understand that while God's grace is freely available to us, the act of making it available to us cost him dearly. We, therefore, cannot live as if are free to do whatever we want, for that would be to deny that Christ is indeed Lord of our lives.

[mkh4JC]

see if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry?

If I am understanding you aright, as I said, if you are Christian and you sin then you will pay for it. Here's what's in scripture:

'For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chasteneing, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-11.

So you can't get away from sinning as a Christian without being corrected or chastened sore for it.

[tango92]

So, that precludes the conditions that you speak of where a person decides that they shall "believe in Jesus" and then go about doing whatever they want. Such a person is fooling themselves. He/she is NOT a Christian. Of course, even those who truly desire to live the godly life connected with God through Christ are going to stumble and fall. It is with regard to these people that have a heart set for God, but that still find themselves not perfectly living the holy and righteous life that God calls us to, that we remember that Christ died for all of our sins. So, we remember that we are forgiven (pre-forgiven if you want), confess our sins, and repent by returning back to living holy lives offered to God. But this in no way should be understood as a license to sin, for every sin is grevious to God and is the moral equivalent of crucifiying Christ again. Christians need to understand that while God's grace is freely available to us, the act of making it available to us cost him dearly. We, therefore, cannot live as if are free to do whatever we want, for that would be to deny that Christ is indeed Lord of our lives.

very good. thats a more convincing answer. but still you did not respond to my previous question

if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry and a true christian believer?

[tango92]

So you can't get away from sinning as a Christian without being corrected or chastened sore for it.

now were getting somewhere. there are crimes you can commit in this world which cant be payed back i this life.

the prime example being hitler who killed over 6 million jews.

even if hitler was a true christian believer and was genuinely sorry (im not saying he was) how can any punishment in this life be equivalent to the murder of 6 million. at most you can kill him once

[Grace Seeker]

The doctrine of the Atonement makes the First Person of Godhead into a blood-thirsty tyrant in order to demonstrate the self-sacrificing love of the Second Person. To a dispassionate critic, the sacrifice of the Second Person appears as much misplaced and meaningless as the demand of the First Person is cruel and sadistic.

You understand that there are many different understandings in Christian circles with regard to this "doctrine of the Atonement". It is not a monolithic idea. That which you have objected to is also objected to by many Christians as well. For a broader treatment of the idea, one in which other understandings will be presented and those who hold to what you object to enter into dialogue with them, I recommend a book: The Atonement Debate: Papers from the London Symposium on the Theology of Atonement, published by Zondervan, c. 2008. Alternately, David Bronods' book, Salvation and the Cross traces some of the major epocal movements with regard to view of the atonement over the course of first Biblical and then Christian history.

[Grace Seeker]

if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry and a true christian believer?

Contained within my rather large post above is this statement:

Now, what you mention about the injustice of God forgiving what I have done to another is a good question. But we have to begin by remembering that any injustice done to another person is once again evidence of our rebellion against God. We need to quit that status. AND we also need to go and seek reconcilation with those that we have hurt along the way. In our human relationship this might require reparations or even more. But in terms of our relationship with God, it means we need to get back on track with doing the right thing AND doing it for the right reason.

It may not be entirely satisfactory as an answer to your question, but it is all I have time for at the moment. Forgive me, as I must run off to tend to other things.

[mkh4JC]

now were getting somewhere. there are crimes you can commit in this world which cant be payed back i this life.

the prime example being hitler who killed over 6 million jews.

even if hitler was a true christian believer and was genuinely sorry (im not saying he was) how can any punishment in this life be equivalent to the murder of 6 million. at most you can kill him once

Hitler was not a Christian, he was possessed of the devil and an occultist. The thing is, you cannot become a Christian and then live any old kind of lifestyle that you want because you are now Christian, because Jesus died for your sins. If you do so, if you 'convert' and begin doing so, then that is evidence that you were never saved to begin with.

And as I said earlier, if you will not be disciplined by God then he will just end your life. I don't know if that means you lose your salvation or not, but I know for sure that you will lose your life.

[Supreme]

Why does God need to come to the earth to atone the sins of his own creations?

Why does God need to create Earth and the Universe to glorify Himself? Why does God send to prophets in order so that more people can worship Him? Why does God need the human race? Why does God need to be worshipped? Why does God allow disbelief? Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? The point is, we can sit here and question God and His plans all day if need be, but we're going to be no more intelligent than before.

That is a pagan belief as is the trinity.

To be fair, I don't know of any pagans who believe God was sent down into creation to atone for sins, and it is nothing to do with the Trinity!

Why lower God? He is too high to be lowered like this! These were NEVER beliefs that Jesus taught for those after him twisted his message and words as was described in the Dideche.

11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Matthew 23:11-12

Humans are sinning against God, so God becomes a human being and then punishes himself because of what we did? There is no logic to this what so ever.

Wait, religion's about logic know? A skygod creates a planet and demands to be worshipped? Where's the any logic in that? There isn't, logic is for science, faith is for religion.

God does not need to become a human being in order to show us how to live. This is why he sends down messengers because that is their job.

This is in explained the Parable of the Tenants, as to why a prophet was no longer sufficient:

9He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
13"Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.'

14"But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

(Luke 20:9-16)

[Hamza Asadullah]

The dogma of the Atonement is unsound, for (1) man is not born in sin. (2) God does not require a price to forgive the sinners, and (3) the idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is unjust and cruel. By sinning we do not harm God, but ourselves.

The stain of sin on our souls can be red, not by the suffering or death of any other person, whether the latter be willing or unwilling, but by our own repentance, turning away from evil and doing good. And so, when Adam, after the act of disobedience, repented and submitted himself completely to God, his sin was forgiven. Neither is the sin of Adam inherited by the children of Adam, nor did it require the suffering and death of Jesus Christ to be forgiven. The truth is that Jesus did not die on the cross at all.

The doctrine of the Atonement is a denial of the Justice and Mercy of God. Islam rejects this dogma. It declares that the forgiveness of sins cannot be obtained by the suffering and sacrifice of any other person, human or divine, but by the Grace of God and our own sincere and persistent efforts to fight against evil and do good:

(that no laden one shall bear another's load, and that man hath only that for which he maketh effort, and that his effort will be seen)
(The Glorious Qur'un 53:38,40)

(Whosoever goeth right, it is only for the good of his own soul that he goeth right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load) (17:15)

[mkh4JC]

The dogma of the Atonement is unsound, for (1) man is not born in sin. (2) God does not require a price to forgive the sinners, and (3) the idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is unjust and cruel. By sinning we do not harm God, but ourselves.

Man is born in sin and completely opposed to Holy God. God is All Holy and there is no darkness in him. Man is fallen and depraved and there is nothing good about him. Apart from Christ there is no righteousness in man.

The best way I can describe sin nature or the fact that we are all born in sin is to say that sin nature is a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. Sinning for the sinner comes naturally, they are hopelessly lost in their sin and can do nothing but sin. When a sinner for instance tells a lie, they don't really think about what they are doing, it just comes naturally. How about the fact that you don't have to teach a young child how to lie, or how to steal, or how to disobey their parents. Why is that? Because we all are born in sin and have sin nature.

The thing is, when you become Christian, God gives you a new nature, you are allowed to partake of Christ's divine nature and you can begin to live a supernatural life. There are only two kinds of people in this world, those who are dead to sin (Christians) and those who are dead in their sins (sinners).

Neither is the sin of Adam inherited by the children of Adam, nor did it require the suffering and death of Jesus Christ to be forgiven.

No one will be punished for the sins of Adam. The Bible says that we as human beings have not sinned after the similtude (or likeness) of Adam's transgression. We were not in the garden and tempted by the devil is what I'm trying to get at. But the Bible also teaches that by one mans transgression or disobedience (Adam's) death and sin entered into the world. And so all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. I don't have an answer as to why God allowed the devil to tempt Eve and thus bring about the Fall. All I know is that God is not like us and he has a purpose in everything he does and allows.

[Ramadhan]

All I know is that God is not like us and he has a purpose in everything he does and allows.

Riiiggghhttt...... just a moment ago I swear I heard christians say that Jesus pbuh was god. And Jesus pbuh was certainly very much like a man.

[Ramadhan]

Back on topic..

Had jesus pbuh lived among us today, he would refuse to eat meat dishes prepared by christians, because he would be concerned that the dish contained pork.

Shouldn't christians be concerned that a person they love and worship refuse to eat the dish they prepare?

[Ramadhan]

When he was with us, Jesus pbuh went to temple to pray and worship God solely.

Had he lived among us, Jesus pbuh would definitely refuse to go to a church, because if he went there, he would find that he would have to worship his own self instead.

Also, he would refuse to go to church because in church he would have to sing and dance, instead of worshipping God.

[mkh4JC]

Riiiggghhttt...... just a moment ago I swear I heard christians say that Jesus pbuh was god. And Jesus pbuh was certainly very much like a man.

The Bible says this:

'Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.' II Corinthians 5: 16.

As I said earlier, Jesus stepped out of eternity, entered into time, and added humanity to his divinity, but now he is seated at the right hand of God the Father.

[Hamza Asadullah]

When he was with us, Jesus pbuh went to temple to pray and worship God solely.

Had he lived among us, Jesus pbuh would definitely refuse to go to a church, because if he went there, he would find that he would have to worship his own self instead.

Also, he would refuse to go to church because in church he would have to sing and dance, instead of worshipping God.

Jesus would never approve of images and idols which are worshipped in the church. Would he approve of those who worship him over the creator?

What about the mother? Why is she left out? Did she not give birth to God? Did she not suckle God when he was a baby? Did she not clean the excretion of faeces and urine from God when he was a baby? Did she not feed God in order for God to stay alive? Did she not raise God as child? Did she not teach God what he did not know? Then is she not worthy of worship for is she not the mother of God?

[Ramadhan]

Jesus would never approve of images and idols which are worshipped in the church. Would he approve of those who worship him over the creator?

It is indeed very perplexing that christians are not concerned at all that Jesus pbuh would definitely not want to go to church.

[Predator]

No one will be punished for the sins of Adam.

So why would Jesus be punished for the sins of the evil doers??? The evil doers didnt ask Jesus before committing a sin , how can God the father hold Jesus responsible.

It is indeed very perplexing that christians are not concerned at all that Jesus pbuh would definitely not want to go to church.

Yeah he might not want to go to a church because one of The first thing he will do after descending to the earth is destroying the cross

Sunan Abu Dawud Book 37, Number 4310:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (pbuh) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (pbuh). He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognize him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizya. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.

[mkh4JC]

So why would Jesus be punished for the sins of the evil doers??? The evil doers didnt ask Jesus before committing a sin , how can God the father hold Jesus responsible.

Well, Jesus is quoted in the New Testament, in St. John, as saying that the scriptures cannot be broken, meaning that they are true forever. Blood sacrifice for the remission of sins is a concept that God introduced to not only the Jewish people, but to all humanity. So that cannot be broken, it is true. He also says this in St. John 15: 13.

'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.'

It was in the plan of God to give his Son for the life of all those who come to him, as the Bible teaches that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Christianity is an exchange; you giving up your view or whatever you hold to be true for eternal truth. It also has to do with how offensive sin is to God, who is All Holy.

[Supreme]

Back on topic..

Had jesus pbuh lived among us today, he would refuse to eat meat dishes prepared by christians, because he would be concerned that the dish contained pork.

Shouldn't christians be concerned that a person they love and worship refuse to eat the dish they prepare?

Obviously, as a Jew, pork is forbidden for Jesus.

It is indeed very perplexing that christians are not concerned at all that Jesus pbuh would definitely not want to go to church.

I think you're more perplexed by the fact you expect Christians on here to agree with you on your speculations regarding what you think Jesus might not do. You're offering your opinion on someone who is no longer on Earth, and thus offering a redundant statement: why do expect us to take what you think Jesus might and might not do any more seriously than if you were to offer your opinion on the possible actions of Ceasar if he was alive in the 21st century? You're merely speculating, and like all speculation, do not expect others to take it seriously or agree with it.

[Grace Seeker]

What about the mother? Why is she left out? Did she not give birth to God? Did she not suckle God when he was a baby? Did she not clean the excretion of faeces and urine from God when he was a baby? Did she not feed God in order for God to stay alive? Did she not raise God as child? Did she not teach God what he did not know? Then is she not worthy of worship for is she not the mother of God?

In a word, No. She is not worthy of worship, for she is NOT God.

[Grace Seeker]

It is indeed very perplexing that christians are not concerned at all that Jesus pbuh would definitely not want to go to church.

I'm not concerned because I disagree with your supposition.

[Predator]

In a word, No. She is not worthy of worship, for she is NOT God

Yeah but the sects of the roman catholics worship her anyway

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/worship-of-mary-faq.htm

So now that makes it 4 gods , or should i say one
1+1+1+1 = 1

[Grace Seeker]

Yeah but the sects of the roman catholics worship her anyway

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/worship-of-mary-faq.htm

So now that makes it 4 gods , or should i say one
1+1+1+1 = 1

Catholics do teach that Mary is the Mother of God, and they are deovted to her as such. And though I don't agree even with the veneration of Mary done by Roman Catholics, I disagree with you and your source that it constitutes worship of Mary. The Catechism of the Catholic Church that I possess does NOT say the things that the website says that it says with regard to Mary. In the copy that I have the following is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church with regard to Mary:

It would be wrong to say that it is absolutely necessary to be devoted to Mary in order to be saved....

Devotion to Mary, of course, "differs essentially from the cult of adoration" (LG 66) which is given to God alone. Though Mary has sublime dignity as the Mother of God, she is a fellow creature.

[Ramadhan]

I am actually surprised that all christians here dismiss just like that without analyses the thought of what Jesus pbuh would be/do had he were among us now.
It seems to me that what jesus would do/teach/command has no relevance at all to christianity and there is complete disconnect between his examples with current practices of christianity.

i find it shocking that christians are okay with the notion that Jesus pbuh would refuse to enter church.

is there any church left in this world now which still practice exactly the same worships that Jesus pbuh did?

[Supreme]

Catholics do teach that Mary is the Mother of God, and they are deovted to her as such. And though I don't agree even with the veneration of Mary done by Roman Catholics, I disagree with you and your source that it constitutes worship of Mary. The Catechism of the Catholic Church that I possess does NOT say the things that the website says that it says with regard to Mary. In the copy that I have the following is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church with regard to Mary:

I have to agree with this. Although I'm not fully familar or entirely satisfied by Catholic customs and practices, even I know they don't worship Mary or the saints, although admittedly at time it does seem like it. I went into a Catholic service a few years back, they started praying to Mary. I actually couldn't believe my ears. I mean, respect your mother and all that, but do Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians think Jesus would be happy the way Mary is venerated as she is?

[Predator]

Yes, I call that love. I couldn't think of a more loving act. It is as Jesus defined love.

Jesus defined love, you cant be serious, can you . How can you believe that someone who makes statements like these be your so called so loving lord and a savior

HIS INVECTIVES AGAINST THE ELDERS OF HIS PEOPLE:

(a) "Ye hypocrites . . ." MATTHEW 23:13
"Ye wicked and adulterous generation . . ." MATTHEW 16:4
"Ye whited sepulchres . . ." MATTHEW 23:27
"Ye generation of vipers . . ." MATTHEW 23:33
(b) He calls his mother "WOMAN" JOHN 2:4, the same manner in
which he addresses a prostitute, ". . . WOMAN where are those
thine accusers?" JOHN 8:10

And Jesus your so called " PRINCE OF PEACE, " boasts that he had not come to bringpeace on earth but fire and division!

"I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish that it were
ALREADY KINDLED.
"Do you supposed that I came to bring peace to the world?
No, not peace BUT DIVISION." LUKE 12:49 and 51
"Think not that I am come to send peace on
earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew, 10:34)

And also when he has come For The Jews Only and not for the entire world

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but
unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 15:24)

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, andcommanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6)

According to Jesus ", The Gentiles" (Non-Jews) Are Dogs:

"It is not meet to take the
children's bread, and to cast it to dogs ." (matthew, 15:26)

Jesus wants his enemies killed , as they didnt want him to rule .Bring them here and cut their throats

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' Luke 19:27

does he sound to you like he is someone who will forgive sins or die for other's, when he cant forgive his enemies who dont want him to rule and wants them killed instead

Do you call that love - killing people ?

[Grace Seeker]

Airforce, you are a hoot. Jesus didn't demand: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me." He told a story in which one of the characters in that story said that. From your thinking that Jesus was walking around trying to prove to others that he didn't die on the cross to proposing that Jesus wants to kill his enemies, you illustrate that you simply do not understand even the most basic teachings of the scriptures. Now, I don't know, maybe you are not a native English speaker. I'll be glad to get the Bible to you in your mother tongue, if that would help you to understand it better.

[Hamza Asadullah]

In a word, No. She is not worthy of worship, for she is NOT God.

But why does she not deserve Godly status? Did she not gave birth to God? Did she not feed and clothe God? Did she not suckle God? Did she not wipe the faeces and clean the urine of God? Did she not raise God? Did she not teach God when he was a child what he did not know?

[glo]

Jesus defined love, you cant be serious, can you . How can you believe that someone who makes statements like these be your so called so loving lord and a savior

HIS INVECTIVES AGAINST THE ELDERS OF HIS PEOPLE:


And Jesus your so called " PRINCE OF PEACE, " boasts that he had not come to bringpeace on earth but fire and division!



And also when he has come For The Jews Only and not for the entire world




According to Jesus ", The Gentiles" (Non-Jews) Are Dogs:



Jesus wants his enemies killed , as they didnt want him to rule .Bring them here and cut their throats



does he sound to you like he is someone who will forgive sins or die for other's, when he cant forgive his enemies who dont want him to rule and wants them killed instead

Do you call that love - killing people ?

Airforce, it seems very unusual to hear a Muslim speak such disrespectful words about the revered Isa (pbuh).
I thought both Christians and Muslims loved and respected Jesus greatly!

Please refrain from discrediting the man you call your prophet and I call my Lord ...

[Ramadhan]

Jesus pbuh would be a lot more happy in Makkah than in Vatican.

Let's see:
1. In Makkah he could go to Masjidil Haraam to solely worship God every day all day and all night long, while in Vatican access to churches are not 24 hours for public, and on top of that, there are paintings and statues of all kind of people and idol and mythology all over the city and in churches and basilica, and paintings and statues of naked people. He would be too distressed that everytime he goes inside a church he would have to pray to the half naked statue of his own self nailed to a cross. If it were up to him, he would be demolishing all those pagan influences.
2. In Makkah he would not need worry about food as all food are halal, while in Vatican he would only be eating fruits as there is no halal shop. Remember that Jesus pbuh and all the apostles did not eat pork.
3. In Makkah all women are covered, just like his mother and all the chaste women from his time, while in Vatican especially in summer you can see many women parading around half naked.

I can think of many more reasons why Jesus pbuh would definitely choose to live in Makkah than in Vatican, but it could wait.
The point here is that isn't interesting that the person Christians call their god would prefer to live in Makkah than in Vatican.

[Predator]

Airforce, it seems very unusual to hear a Muslim speak such disrespectful words about the revered Isa (pbuh).Please refrain from discrediting the man you call your prophet

Its not me who is discrediting him, its your Bible .And Yes , we do respect Jesus as how we respect all prophets and we dont have such offensive or disrespectful things writtem about him in the Quran

And I call my Lord

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?(Matthew 7:21-22 )

In the name of Jesus , you are doing all these wonderful works You builts hospitals schools , orphanages,we built hospitals , you looked after the animals , you looked after Aborgines , Indians and we educated these fools and civilised them and cultured them ,

And what does Jesus say to that :

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7: 23

He tell you to get away . Depart from me , get away , you are evil to us .. He's not gonna tell the Muslims,Jews, Hindus,Athiest "get away ,depart from me ," he gonna tell you , the christians , who are claiming to be followers

Why would he do that to you , when you did all those things for Jesus ?

You know why ? Because you call him lord , he is not your lord and not your god . Thats the reason . You make him into a god, when he told you to worship the father in heaven . And He said come ,come , I' ll teach you how to pray and Like a little baby . like a little child , he puts the words in your mouth and tells you to pray like this

Matthew 6:9–13

Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
[For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.]
Amen.

Where does he say "Father of Jesus " or " Jesus christ, My Lord in heaven " , Because this is how you pray and you are worshipping Jesus instead of worshipping the father , thats why he tells you get away.

[Danah]

So, whether you accept it or not is up to you, but from God's perspective, we've all already been forgiven he's just waiting for us to realize it and then live out a life reflective of that in the way we relate to him and one another.

Peace,

I was wondering what if the person died before he realized that he was already forgiven, what is his destiny then?

[glo]

Its not me who is discrediting him, its your Bible .And Yes , we do respect Jesus as how we respect all prophets and we dont have such offensive or disrespectful things writtem about him in the Quran

With all respect, Airforce, I disagree.

You are randomly quoting Bible verses, without taking heed to the context they are written/spoken in, seemingly with the implicit intent to show Jesus/Isa (pbuh) in a negative light.
I am sure I could do the same with Muhammed (pbuh), if I wanted to. The simple truth is, I don't want to. I respect the man Muhammed too much, and I respect and love my Muslim brothers and sisters too much to wish to hurt their feelings in such a way!

You are putting words into Jesus' mouth, which he never said about himself ...
You are quoting Bible verses which don't refer to Jesus at all ...

Really, gain a better understanding of the Bible before you attempt to discredit it.
And please don't defame Jesus.
I know you wouldn't like it, if anybody did this to Muhammed (pbuh)

May the peace of God be with you.

[GreyKode]

With all respect, Airforce, I disagree.

You are randomly quoting Bible verses, without taking heed to the context they are written/spoken in, seemingly with the implicit intent to show Jesus/Isa (pbuh) in a negative light.
I am sure I could do the same with Muhammed (pbuh), if I wanted to. The simple truth is, I don't want to. I respect the man Muhammed too much, and I respect and love my Muslim brothers and sisters too much to wish to hurt their feelings in such a way!

You are putting words into Jesus' mouth, which he never said about himself ...
You are quoting Bible verses which don't refer to Jesus at all ...

Really, gain a better understanding of the Bible before you attempt to discredit it.
And please don't defame Jesus.
I know you wouldn't like it, if anybody did this to Muhammed (pbuh)

May the peace of God be with you.

Although I find his tone about prophet Jesus(pbuh) a lil bit disrespectful and ofcourse I disagree with it, however it can be observed that this wasn't his intention, I think he was trying to show that Jesus(pbuh) is not what some here keep saying about him that he loves to be in the company of sinners etc etc, but if needed he will use force and anger to correct the offenders against god. See how you reacted when you found the poster's words disrespectful about Jesus(pbuh), you were simply acting based on your innate nature, you got angry and stood up to defend the prophet of ALLAH(swt). This is how Jesus(pbuh) would react to ones who blaspheme against god and transgress his bounds, he would act militantly if needed.

And BTW, all the quotes were indeed uttered by Jesus(pbuh) except the last one which grace corrected him about.

[Supreme]

You know why ? Because you call him lord , he is not your lord and not your god . Thats the reason . You make him into a god, when he told you to worship the father in heaven . And He said come ,come , I' ll teach you how to pray and Like a little baby . like a little child , he puts the words in your mouth and tells you to pray like this

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

(Matthew 7:15-23)

Now, we can look at the verse in context. Here, Jesus is essentially saying that not everyone who called Him and proclaims Him Lord will enter Heaven, because though they call Him Lord, they do bad deeds, they take the love and mercy of Jesus for granted, they sin and they do not repent. He's saying only the people who call Him Lord and obey God's commandments will enter Heaven; you cannot just do one and not the others, there is not compromise.

I think it's probably your poor grasp of English more than anything else.

[Banu_Hashim]

And please don't defame Jesus.
I know you wouldn't like it, if anybody did this to Muhammed (pbuh)

No we wouldn't. Also, we would would not like anyone besmirching the name of Eesa/Jesus (alyhis salaam). Please know this: that Eesa (alayhis salaam) is one of the five greatest prophets of Islam, which include:

1. Muhammad (salalAllahu alayhi wa sallam) - The leader of and seal to, all prophets before him.

2. Ibrahim / Abraham

3. Musa / Moses

4. Isa / Jesus

5. Nuh / Noah

Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them all. The are the most pious men known to humanity and a role model for all Muslims. :)

Fee Amaanillah.

[Supreme]

No we wouldn't. Also, we would would not like anyone besmirching the name of Eesa/Jesus (alyhis salaam). Please know this: that Eesa (alayhis salaam) is one of the five greatest prophets of Islam, which include:

1. Muhammad (salalAllahu alayhi wa sallam) - The leader of and seal to, all prophets before him.

2. Ibrahim / Abraham

3. Musa / Moses

4. Isa / Jesus

5. Nuh / Noah

Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them all. The are the most pious men known to humanity and a role model for all Muslims. :)

Fee Amaanillah.

May I ask, obviously you know what Muhammed was like, but seeing as the last four prophets have most of their information within the Bible, and you believe the Bible to be false and untrue, other than a few brief mentions within the Quran, how do you know anything about those prophets?

[Predator]

Here, Jesus is essentially saying that not everyone who called Him and proclaims Him Lord will enter Heaven, because though they call Him Lord, they do bad deeds, they take the love and mercy of Jesus for granted, they sin and they do not repent. He's saying only the people who call Him Lord and obey God's commandments will enter Heaven; you cannot just do one and not the others, there is not compromise.

Jesus was telling you do the mighty works in the Name of the Father - God almighty and not in the name of Jesus because the Father is the One and Only God and not in the name of Jesus ,so it looks like you didnt understand

I think it's probably your poor grasp of English more than anything else.

No i thinks its you who cant grasp English nor any other language , you understand gibberish because you believe

Father +Son+ Holy Ghost = 1 God
1+1+1 = 1 God

If you and your 2 brothers are 3 identical triplets , if one of you commit murder can we hang the other
No , because he is a different person.What makes him different .His personality

when you say the Father , u are not thinking of the holy ghost and when u say Jesus , u are not thinking of the father , when u sayHoly ghost m , u arent thinking of the Jesus , are u ?. There are 3 distinct persons with distinct mental pictures and personalities no matter how hard you try you cannot super-impose and create one , there will ever be 3 in your mind. The Trinity is a flawed logic.

And Both the Quran and the Bible claim that GOD Almighty is an Absolute One and only One:

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

Notice also how Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty.

[Banu_Hashim]

May I ask, obviously you know what Muhammed was like, but seeing as the last four prophets have most of their information within the Bible, and you believe the Bible to be false and untrue, other than a few brief mentions within the Quran, how do you know anything about those prophets?

From the Qur'an of course. Their lives are recounted in the Qur'an (more so than in the Bible) and tafseer (commentary/exegesis) of the Qur'aan by notable classical Muslim scholars such as Ibn Kathir.

I suggest you read "Qasas al-anbiyah (Stories of the Prophets)" by Ibn Kathir. We know more authentic information from the Qur'an without ever having to look at the Bible, which, yes, we believe has been changed by man over time and therefore contains errors. It seems you have limited knowledge of Islamic beliefs and I appreciate that's why you're here, and I'm glad of that so that we can clear the misconceptions for you :).

[جوري]

No we wouldn't. Also, we would would not like anyone besmirching the name of Eesa/Jesus (alyhis salaam). Please know this: that Eesa (alayhis salaam) is one of the five greatest prophets of Islam, which include:

1. Muhammad (salalAllahu alayhi wa sallam) - The leader of and seal to, all prophets before him.

2. Ibrahim / Abraham

3. Musa / Moses

4. Isa / Jesus

5. Nuh / Noah

Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them all. The are the most pious men known to humanity and a role model for all Muslims. :)

Fee Amaanillah.

:sl:

I am always perplexed why christians get so offended when you quote the bible for them? Does the whole world have to see its lies through the same rose tinted glasses that they do? That is what their scribes have offered. If they feel it doesn't reconcile with the nature of their mangod to be so vengeful and so 'loving' at the same time, perhaps they should look for deeper answers else where instead of questioning people on motive.


:w:

[Predator]

:sl:

I am always perplexed why christians get so offended when you quote the bible for them? Does the whole world have to see its lies through the same rose tinted glasses that they do? That is what their scribes have offered. If they feel it doesn't reconcile with the nature of their mangod to be so vengeful and so 'loving' at the same time, perhaps they should look for deeper answers else where instead of questioning people on motive.


:w:

Yeah ,they ignore the practical teachings of the Bible and discard the Jewish Law followed by Jesus (Matthew 5:17-20, 23:23) they practice what is called ‘selective morality’ and ignore the teachings of the Gospels, paying close attention to the epistles of Paul (only).

· Jesus commanded fasting (Matthew 4:2, 6:16) yet Christians do not fast.
· Jesus abstained from eating pork and drinking wine (Leviticus 10:9, 11:7, Matthew 5:17-20) yet Christians practice the exact opposite, they eat pork and drink wine! Paul said it was okay to drink wine 1Timothy 5:23.

· Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day of infancy (Luke 1:59) yet Christians are not circumcised like Jesus. This equates to death penalty (Genesis 17:14)

· Jesus established the death penalty for those who abandon his teachings (John 15:6) yet Christians have abandoned his teaching but they are not being punished accordingly! The governments of Christian countries reject the Jewish Law because of the innovations of Paul. (He made everything permissible for them!)

[Supreme]

Jesus commanded fasting (Matthew 4:2, 6:16) yet Christians do not fast.

My church is hosting a fast this month, I'm actually going to participate in it. Moot point.

Jesus abstained from eating pork and drinking wine (Leviticus 10:9, 11:7, Matthew 5:17-20) yet Christians practice the exact opposite, they eat pork and drink wine! Paul said it was okay to drink wine 1Timothy 5:23.

Jesus was a Jew, so couldn't eat pork. He couldn't eat pork anyway though, it was actually not allowed in Holy Land. He also drank wine. Heck, He even turned water into wine!

· Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day of infancy (Luke 1:59) yet Christians are not circumcised like Jesus. This equates to death penalty (Genesis 17:14)

Some Christians are, especially in America. Although it's a Jewish law intended for the Jews, not the Gentiles.

Jesus established the death penalty for those who abandon his teachings (John 15:6) yet Christians have abandoned his teaching but they are not being punished accordingly! The governments of Christian countries reject the Jewish Law because of the innovations of Paul. (He made everything permissible for them!)

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

I'm not sure how you could have possibly interpreted from this verse that Jesus advocates the death penalty. I don't know of any scholar, even the mediocre ones, who say that this verse equates to Jesus permitting the death penalty. What a load of rubbish. As I said previously, it's most likely your poor grasp of English than your lack of understanding.

From the Qur'an of course. Their lives are recounted in the Qur'an (more so than in the Bible) and tafseer (commentary/exegesis) of the Qur'aan by notable classical Muslim scholars such as Ibn Kathir.

Cheers mate, could you give me passages referring to the story of Moses say?

[جوري]

Yeah ,they ignore the practical teachings of the Bible and discard the Jewish Law followed by Jesus (Matthew 5:17-20, 23:23) they practice what is called ‘selective morality’ and ignore the teachings of the Gospels, paying close attention to the epistles of Paul (only).

· Jesus commanded fasting (Matthew 4:2, 6:16) yet Christians do not fast.
· Jesus abstained from eating pork and drinking wine (Leviticus 10:9, 11:7, Matthew 5:17-20) yet Christians practice the exact opposite, they eat pork and drink wine! Paul said it was okay to drink wine 1Timothy 5:23.

· Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day of infancy (Luke 1:59) yet Christians are not circumcised like Jesus. This equates to death penalty (Genesis 17:14)

· Jesus established the death penalty for those who abandon his teachings (John 15:6) yet Christians have abandoned his teaching but they are not being punished accordingly! The governments of Christian countries reject the Jewish Law because of the innovations of Paul. (He made everything permissible for them!)

I agree.. then they quote passages about deeds and intentions having to match, but as usual it all comes up empty!


:w:

[aadil77]

Cheers mate, could you give me passages referring to the story of Moses say?

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...run-aaron.html

This is for all of them

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets-islam/index2.html

[aadil77]

May I ask, obviously you know what Muhammed was like, but seeing as the last four prophets have most of their information within the Bible, and you believe the Bible to be false and untrue, other than a few brief mentions within the Quran, how do you know anything about those prophets?

I suggest you read the quran before making claims like that, we have whole chapters on prophets, even named after them

The hadith (sayings) of the prophet Muhammad have detail about them as well

[Banu_Hashim]

Cheers mate, could you give me passages referring to the story of Moses say?

aadil77 has kindly posted the links to the accounts of Moses (peace be upon him). Interestingly Musa or Moses is the prophet which the Qur'an talks most about.

[Predator]

My church is hosting a fast this month, I'm actually going to participate in it. Moot point.

Only this month, ?

For us , its one of the 5 pillars of Islam thus a MUST and obligatory and we muslims fast 30 days every year and also on other occasions

Jesus was a Jew, so couldn't eat pork. He couldn't eat pork anyway though, it was actually not allowed in Holy Land

It isnt allowed in your Bible

Leviticus 11:8
You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

Are you practicing selective morality , since you want to eat pork , you ignore the above verse

Although it's a Jewish law intended for the Jews, not the Gentiles.

Well if you follow Jesus , then arent you're supposed to do what his practices does, like we follow Muhammad

He also drank wine. Heck, He even turned water into wine!

Not all Christians drink wine or alcohol. The Christian Mormons don't drink it nor use it in their church. and the mormons say that Wine is grape juice and not an alcoholic one. People misunderstood it. Alcohol including wine was scientifically proven to cause serious mental illness and damages.
Why would the "Real Holy Bible" allow for us to drink something that causes lots of mental damages for us? especially after knowing the fact that in Hebrew grape juice was often referred to as wine.
Jesus converted water into grape juice as one of his miracles that Allah Almighty granted for him, and said that his blood is like grape juice.
We must first explore the meaning of the word "Wine." Looking at the dictionary one can learn that the word "Wine" has following meanings.

wine
1.A beverage made of the fermented juice of any of various other fruits or plants
2.A beverage made of the fermented juice of any of various kinds of grapes, usually containing from 10 to 15 percent alcohol by volume
3. Something that intoxicates or exhilarates.

Let us keep this fact in mind that the word [wine] does not automatically carry connotations [in dictionary] of an intoxicant drink, it is more obviously used for juice. Looking into the issue further we see that word [alcohol] means:

al·co·hol (²l"k.-hôl", -h¼l") n. 1. Abbr. al., alc. A colorless, volatile, flammable liquid, C2H5OH, synthesized or obtained by fermentation of sugars and starches and widely used, either pure or denatured, as a solvent and in drugs, cleaning solutions, explosives, and intoxicating beverages. Also called ethanol, ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol. 2. Intoxicating liquor containing alcohol. 3. Any of a series of hydroxyl compounds, the simplest of which are derived from saturated hydrocarbons, have the general formula CnH2n+1OH, and include ethanol and methanol. [Medieval Latin, fine metallic powder, especially of antimony, from Arabic al-ku¡l : al, the + ku¡l, powder of antimony.]

Since Bible does not prove and/or indicates that alleged wine was intoxicant, It is therefore safe to say that it is inconceivable for a great Prophet Jesus to act in such contradictory fashion to turn water into intoxicant [wine] as we know it by proven record that intoxicants [alcoholic beverages] are responsible of social and moral bankruptcy of western world [in form of drunk driving accidental deaths, rape, incest, murder, suicide and more].

The Bible says :

Do not drink wine nor strong drink (Leviticus 10:9)
Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)
For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. (Proverbs 4:17)
But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble [in] judgment. (Isaiah 28:7)
Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth. (Joel 1:5)

*****dom and wine and new wine take away the heart. (Hosea 4:11)



Jesus was made to drink wine not that he wanted :

Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. (Mark 14:25)

Jesus was made to transform water into wine
Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare [it]. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, (John 2:7-9)

If the Gospels were written by the disciples of Jesus, then the miracle would have been reversed, the transforming of wine into water instead of water into wine. Jesus would never praise wine because it was the poison that caused Noah to get drunk, and Lot to commit incest!

Prophet Lot commits incest from wine
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, [and] lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. (Genesis 19:33-26)

According to the Bible, the Prophet Noah got drunk!
And Noah began [to be] an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid [it] upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces [were] backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. (Genesis 9:20-25)


Although these stories are false because they teaches blasphemy against the holy Prophets Noah and Lot, they still convey a moral lesson for mankind that alcohol (wine) is the most dangerous substance that should be rejected by the true followers of Jesus.

Muslims are the true followers of Jesus because they practice his teachings, the abstinence from alcohol and the consumption of forbidden foods, and they observe fasting. The 12 disciples fasted after Jesus’ departure, and Muslims obey their teachings whereas the “Christians” today neglect these laws.

Islam, the Kingdom of God, forbids the consumption of alcohol, and purges the society from all social evils.Alcoholic drinks are the only poison that is licensed in many countries. However, Islam took a clear attitude towards alcoholic drinks more than 1400 years ago. Islam prohibits such drinks. Any drink that causes drunkenness is prohibited in Islam regardless of the matter it is made from and regardless of the quantity. According to Islam, if too much of a drink causes drunkenness, then any small quantity of this drink is prohibited, because all alcoholics start with small quantities, and then they become the slaves of alcohol


Paul, the corrupter of the Gospel, made the drinking of wine permissible (1Timothy 5:23) and the Gospel writers reflected his teaching. and This cocktail quality of Western civilization proves that the people of the West are not satisfied with the social structure or the values of their societies and that is why they keep inventing new social trends and ideologies. With this Western chaos of ideologies, how can the ordinary man find mental pace

aadil77 has kindly posted the links to the accounts of Moses (peace be upon him). Interestingly Musa or Moses is the prophet which the Qur'an talks most about.

Yeah Moses is mentioned 136 times in the Quran and Muhammad only 5 times

[Hamza Asadullah]

Paul never did like the old law thats why he decided to abrogate it and create a new one. Should Christianity have been called Paulanity as he has much more influence than Christ ever did.

[Predator]

Should Christianity have been called Paulanity as he has much more influence than Christ ever did.

My words exactly , they should be called Paulians and not Christians. Any Knowledgeable christian would say that the True founder of Christianity is St Paul and not Jesus (PBUH)

[Supreme]

Only this month, ?

What do you mean 'only this month'? You made a claim, I disproved it, you never said 'Christians never fast for more than a month a year'!

or us , its one of the 5 pillars of Islam thus a MUST and obligatory and we muslims fast 30 days every year and also on other occasions

Good for you, I'm not entirely sure what you want me to say...?

Leviticus 11:8
You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

Are you practicing selective morality , since you want to eat pork , you ignore the above verse

'Selective morality', 'Gentile reasoning', call it what you want. James the Just settled these issues in the church's early days, it's rarely ever been debated again. It was agreed that to become Christian, one does not have to first become a Jew, and thereby does not have to abide by Jewish law.

Well if you follow Jesus , then arent you're supposed to do what his practices does, like we follow Muhammad

His practises? Like dying on a cross and being resurrected? Or walking on water? No one can ever hope to aspire to imitate the practises of Jesus, they would be impossible.

Not all Christians drink wine or alcohol. The Christian Mormons don't drink it nor use it in their church. and the mormons say that Wine is grape juice and not an alcoholic one. People misunderstood it. Alcohol including wine was scientifically proven to cause serious mental illness and damages.

Mormons seem drunk already, what with their beliefs of the events of the New Testament actually happening in America and their Book of Mormon that explains we'll all be gods of our own universes when we die! They are a small sect, no more Christian than Buddhists or Sikhs in their beliefs. As you can tell, no mainstream Christian denomination takes their beliefs on whether or not Jesus drank Shloer seriously.

Jesus converted water into grape juice as one of his miracles that Allah Almighty granted for him, and said that his blood is like grape juice.

Is there any evidence for this aside from Mormon beliefs?

Since Bible does not prove and/or indicates that alleged wine was intoxicant, It is therefore safe to say that it is inconceivable for a great Prophet Jesus to act in such contradictory fashion to turn water into intoxicant [wine] as we know it by proven record that intoxicants [alcoholic beverages] are responsible of social and moral bankruptcy of western world [in form of drunk driving accidental deaths, rape, incest, murder, suicide and more].

Since the Bible does not prove it? It says Jesus converted water into wine, not grape juice! What further evidence do you need? Would you rather the Gospel authors wrote a definition of what kind of wine Jesus was drinking in the margine? Or that they wrote an essay re-affirming Jesus' consumption of wine just in case two thousand years it is inconcievable to a religion that claims Him as one of their prophets that He should drink wine? The fact is, wine was not just a supplemant to Jewish society then and now, it was obligatory. Men an women had to drink at least four cups of wine at the passover, and it was even used in the Holy Temple! I'm not quite sure how you could have arrived at the conclusion that Jesus, who grew up in this society of win consumption and obligation, was in fact drinking 'grape juice', despite being a Jew Himself and therefore being involved in such ceremonies where wine was drunk!

If the Gospels were written by the disciples of Jesus, then the miracle would have been reversed, the transforming of wine into water instead of water into wine. Jesus would never praise wine because it was the poison that caused Noah to get drunk, and Lot to commit incest

Jesus neither praised wine nor criticized it. He simply asked His followers to view wine from then on as His blood. We Protestants believe this is symbollic, wheras Catholics believe Jesus' blood is actually present in the Eucharist.

Although these stories are false because they teaches blasphemy against the holy Prophets Noah and Lot, they still convey a moral lesson for mankind that alcohol (wine) is the most dangerous substance that should be rejected by the true followers of Jesus.

Blasaphemy? Holy? Why such almost God like veneration of prophets- they were mere humans, and therefore restricted to the same mistakes and not in any way perfect!

Muslims are the true followers of Jesus because they practice his teachings, the abstinence from alcohol and the consumption of forbidden foods, and they observe fasting. The 12 disciples fasted after Jesus’ departure, and Muslims obey their teachings whereas the “Christians” today neglect these laws

I've already addressed these issues. Forget them, move on.

Islam, the Kingdom of God, forbids the consumption of alcohol, and purges the society from all social evils.Alcoholic drinks are the only poison that is licensed in many countries. However, Islam took a clear attitude towards alcoholic drinks more than 1400 years ago. Islam prohibits such drinks. Any drink that causes drunkenness is prohibited in Islam regardless of the matter it is made from and regardless of the quantity. According to Islam, if too much of a drink causes drunkenness, then any small quantity of this drink is prohibited, because all alcoholics start with small quantities, and then they become the slaves of alcohol

Good for you, again I'm not sure what you'd like me to say.

aadil77 has kindly posted the links to the accounts of Moses (peace be upon him). Interestingly Musa or Moses is the prophet which the Qur'an talks most about.

That is interesting. But Moses is the most important figure in Judaism.

Paul never did like the old law thats why he decided to abrogate it and create a new one. Should Christianity have been called Paulanity as he has much more influence than Christ ever did.

I wouldn't say it was just Paul. Peter was probably equal rank, if not greater in authority, and had just as much an important role in the new church establishment. I wonder if they got on.

[Banu_Hashim]

That is interesting. But Moses is the most important figure in Judaism.

One of the scholars said that the ummah (communtiy) of Moses, i.e. Bani Israeel (the child of israel/jews) committed the most mistakes against God and the teachings of Moses and that is why he is mentioned so much- so we as Muslims can learn from their mistakes.

[Abdul Qadir]

I was just thinking about the question this morning, and the more I thought about it, the more clear the answer is.
There has been strong movement especially in the USA called WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) to speculate about the actions of Jesus pbuh had he lived among us now.

If Jesus pbuh lived today, what would he be?

Let's see:
- He would believe in one God
- He would establish daily prayer and worships to God
- He would be circumcised
- He would not eat pork
- He would fast on certain days
- He would give alms/zakat
(these facts are from the Bible)

Based on the above characteristics, people would think he's a muslim, of course.

What do you think?

I'd like to add two more things to those:

- He will break the crosses
- He will kill the pigs

[Danah]

Paul never did like the old law thats why he decided to abrogate it and create a new one. Should Christianity have been called Paulanity as he has much more influence than Christ ever did.

I always think of that too, even among Christians themselves, you find some who believe that Paul is the true founder of Christianity!

[Supreme]

- He will kill the pigs (Jews)

And this is where any parallel between the Quranic Isa and the Biblical Jesus whom Christians worship just comes to an end. Our Jesus is not a murderer.

[Hamza Asadullah]

And this is where any parallel between the Quranic Isa and the Biblical Jesus whom Christians worship just comes to an end. Our Jesus is not a murderer.

Our Jesus is certainly NOT a God. What a terrible thing in the eyes of God that the creations worship the created more than the creator.

[malayloveislam]

I had read Church articles of faith from a book by Baba Shnouda II and I do not want to judge others' faith, but I think that Church Creed is established by the Paulus and also by Church Fathers later in the 50th of CE during the Council of Jerusalem and it continues on to the Council of Chalcedon.

The book talked about the nature of the person Jesus whether he is divine or human or both of the nature being regarded as a unity and after that they never talk about them in separation anymore like the diophysites. There isn't any mention yet about Trinity because Spiritu Sanctu (Hly Ghost) wasn't yet being included in the Godhead in the early time but Jesus divinity had been debated by those Early Church Fathers.

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/t..._of_christ.pdf

I had read something about Tertullianus too in other books. At the beginning I read those books including about Christians' Creed, it's quite a dizzy experience and time for me because I've personally founded that Christians Creed is quite complicated with Church Fathers' words play and I have to think back in Arabic.

[mkh4JC]

I had read Church articles of faith from a book by Baba Shnouda II and I do not want to judge others' faith, but I think that Church Creed is established by the Paulus and also by Church Fathers later in the 50th of CE during the Council of Jerusalem and it continues on to the Council of Chalcedon.

The book talked about the nature of the person Jesus whether he is divine or human or both of the nature being regarded as a unity and after that they never talk about them in separation anymore like the diophysites. There isn't any mention yet about Trinity because Spiritu Sanctu (Hly Ghost) wasn't yet being included in the Godhead in the early time but Jesus divinity had been debated by those Early Church Fathers.

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/t..._of_christ.pdf

I had read something about Tertullianus too in other books. At the beginning I read those books including about Christians' Creed, it's quite a dizzy experience and time for me because I've personally founded that Christians Creed is quite complicated with Church Fathers' words play and I have to think back in Arabic.

The Trinity is very much Biblical. Perhaps this site will help, explaining the Nicene Creed taken from the scriptures. You can highlight each scripture and read for yourself:

http://www.extremetheology.com/2009/...criptures.html

[aadil77]

And this is where any parallel between the Quranic Isa and the Biblical Jesus whom Christians worship just comes to an end. Our Jesus is not a murderer.

lol since when did killing an animal make you a murderer? And there was no parallel to begin with; mangod vs prophet of god?

[Abdul Qadir]

And this is where any parallel between the Quranic Isa and the Biblical Jesus whom Christians worship just comes to an end. Our Jesus is not a murderer.

I feel that the bible is so misguiding..i asked my bro-in-law, who is a catholic that when he dies, does he think he will go to heaven...he said yes...i asked him, how sure is he...he said he is very certain...and when i asked him, does he fear the punishment of god..he said, god loves all...and will not punish them..and he quoted an example of how a mother will never harm her child and so God loves no matter what they do...but i asked him, if thats the case, why has god prepared hell? and the Hell is hardly mentioned in the bible as much as the Quran...the Quran tells us the good news(Heaven) and warns us repeatedly(about Hell)....Yes, Allah loves us 70 times more than the most loving mother in the world...but that is for those who deserve it...

[Ramadhan]

And this is where any parallel between the Quranic Isa and the Biblical Jesus whom Christians worship just comes to an end. Our Jesus is not a murderer.

Aaahh... but paul himself said that Jesus pbuh will slain the antichrist. That would make him a murderer, no?

Unless you don't believe in that, which I wouldn't be too surprised, because it seems for christians, religion is like an a la carte menu, you can choose and pick what you like that fits your desires and whims, and discard the others you don't find it too palatable.

[mkh4JC]

Aaahh... but paul himself said that Jesus pbuh will slain the antichrist. That would make him a murderer, no?

Unless you don't believe in that, which I wouldn't be too surprised, because it seems for christians, religion is like an a la carte menu, you can choose and pick what you like that fits your desires and whims, and discard the others you don't find it too palatable.

This is what is in Revelation:

'And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.' Revelation 19: 11-15.

This is in reference to the Second Coming. So yes, at the end of the age, Jesus will make war with the Beast Antichrist and his kingdom.

[Supreme]

lol since when did killing an animal make you a murderer? And there was no parallel to begin with; mangod vs prophet of god?

Jews are human beings. All the scientific references in the Quran and you can't even get your head around that! Also, I agree that there was incredibly little correlation between the two figures in the first place.

[aadil77]

Jews are human beings. All the scientific references in the Quran and you can't even get your head around that! Also, I agree that there was incredibly little correlation between the two figures in the first place.

??? Lol where did 'jews' come from. Don't even try to suggest that he will kill innocent jews, they will be fighting us as part of the armies of gog and magog. Is it ok if with you if we fight them back or is that too extreme?

Its the same old cheap tactic by you lot, always victimizing jews, have you read the talmud lately it has alot to say about you 'gentiles'?

Atleast you agree that killing an animal does not make you a murderer, since you failed to answer my question

[Grace Seeker]

Peace,

I was wondering what if the person died before he realized that he was already forgiven, what is his destiny then?

In my writing above I was thinking principally of how we who are alive are called to live.

With regard to the hereafter, Danah, my own thoughts on this are that God's primary response to his creation is to be gracious. I do believe that there is a hell and that those who totally reject God will seperate themsevles from his presence by ending up there. But, I also believe that God wills to save all people (only he won't force his will on us, as he created us with the free will to chose for ourselve who we will, or will not, serve). Therefore, I suspect (based on my reading of a few biblical texts in a slightly different way than many of my fellow Christians) that God can still elect to save whosoever he wills, and that those who have a heart that reflects the nature and character of God in their own lives (even though they may not know him by his proper name) will still ultimately be save by him. Nevertheless, though I have this hope based on what I know of God and his past actions with regard to even fallen humanity, the only guaranteed promise that I can find is to be made alive in Christ.

[Grace Seeker]

From the Qur'an of course. Their lives are recounted in the Qur'an (more so than in the Bible) and tafseer (commentary/exegesis) of the Qur'aan by notable classical Muslim scholars such as Ibn Kathir.

As I understand a commentary, it helps to explain that which it refers to by making comment upon it. But it cannot add to the information that which either is not a part of the original or available from some other outside source (such as a contemporary history). A commentator cannot add new original material of his/her own making. Apart from the Qur'an, what other source material would these Muslim commentaries use, especially since they could hardly use a corrupt source such as the Bible, to make comment upon Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses and Isa?

[Grace Seeker]

Yeah ,they ignore the practical teachings of the Bible and discard the Jewish Law followed by Jesus (Matthew 5:17-20, 23:23) they practice what is called ‘selective morality’ and ignore the teachings of the Gospels, paying close attention to the epistles of Paul (only).

That's simply not true. In fact, if you go into most churches, on any given Sunday, the primary text for the sermon will be taken from the Gospel reading. This past Sunday, I used passages from Genesis, Joshua and Luke, and not a single verse from Paul as the basis of my sermon. There are suggested texts to be read each Sunday in worship, these generally include a Pslam, one other text from the Old Testament, one text from the Gospels, and one text from the espistles or Revelation. But the espitles texts could be from either Paul or non-Pauline epistles. So, there are Sundays when Paul isn't even suggested, and others when he is suggested that he isn't utilized.

No doubt, some preachers and churches prefer to emphasize Paul, but that certainly isn't universal, and it is entirely erroneous to suggest that we pay attention to Paul exclusively. The Sermon on the Mount, the parables of the Prodigal Son, the Good Samaritan, and separation of the sheep and goats are all frequent messages that we in the church use to remind one another of the moral call that Christ makes on our lives.

To say, as you have, "[Christians] practice what is called ‘selective morality’ and ignore the teachings of the Gospels, paying close attention to the epistles of Paul (only)" is nothing more than pure falsehood. Either you simply are unaware of the facts and talk about what you do not know, or knowing (that Christians do not ignore the teachings of the Gospels nor do they pay attention to Paul only) you do not care and choose to knowingly and intentionally speak something other than the truth. Neither is becoming for one who writes falsely and accusatorily of another's morality.

[Rabi Mansur]

He will kill the pigs

Somewhere I read that this is a reference to his keeping Kosher.

:wa:

[Grace Seeker]

It isnt allowed in your Bible

Leviticus 11:8
You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

Are you practicing selective morality , since you want to eat pork , you ignore the above verse

How am I -- a Gentile, one who is not a participant in the Jewish covenant, and one who even present day Jews recognize is not to be held accountable to the Levitical laws but only Noahide law -- to be understood as required to keep a law that was not even written for me?

[Ramadhan]

Jesus pbuh would certainly shun churches, as current churches are used instead as money making enterprises.
see: evangelists, chatholic church.

[Ramadhan]

How am I -- a Gentile, one who is not a participant in the Jewish covenant, and one who even present day Jews recognize is not to be held accountable to the Levitical laws but only Noahide law -- to be understood as required to keep a law that was not even written for me?

so if Jesus pbuh laws are only for jews, whose laws are you follwoing?
Paul?

[Grace Seeker]

Paul never did like the old law thats why he decided to abrogate it and create a new one. Should Christianity have been called Paulanity as he has much more influence than Christ ever did.

This is something that you have been spoonfed and so I understand why you believe it to be true. Even many Christians believe that Paul turned his back on the Jewish law. But I would argue that he never did. That in fact it was his understanding of the law that fueled his evangelistic ferver, and once he realized how Jesus fulfilled the law he wanted to take that message to all, and thus began a mission that went beyond his fellow Jews and into the Gentile world. A place where the Jewish law did not apply in the same why that it had among Jews. (If you think it would be of any value, I could write a whole thread on this myself, but I doubt that anyone would actually care to try to understand what I was writing.)

[Grace Seeker]

so if Jesus pbuh laws are only for jews, whose laws are you follwoing?
Paul?

The command concerning not eating pork is found in Leviticus, it is not a law of Jesus. Jesus gave one command: Love one another as I have loved you. And when asked about the greatest command, he said to "love God" and then he added that along with that one was also to "love your neighbor". Jesus didn't say to not eat pork.

But what Jesus did say that might be inferred by some to speak to the subject includes the following:

What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' (Matthew 15:11)

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (John 6:28-29)

Mark 7

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

[Grace Seeker]

Jesus pbuh would certainly shun churches, as current churches are used instead as money making enterprises.
see: evangelists, chatholic church.

Now, finally, I think you are getting to something that represents the character of Jesus. I think that Jesus would enter most churches primarily to ask them to get with the program. To start going about the task he commissioned them to be about, that is making disciples. He didn't ask us to become some sort of sanctified rotary or country club. However, I also don't think that is inclusive of all churches, but mostly those in westernized nations. There are plenty of churches (even a few in the west) that have something other than their own self-aggrandizement motivating them, and that are genuinely seeking to know God and serve him as his ambassadors in this world.

[Grace Seeker]

My words exactly , they should be called Paulians and not Christians. Any Knowledgeable christian would say that the True founder of Christianity is St Paul and not Jesus (PBUH)

You imply by such a statement that you know more about what it means to be a Christian than do those who are Christians. Worse, you also imply that anyone who disagrees with you is also not knowledgeable.

[Grace Seeker]

Our Jesus is certainly NOT a God. What a terrible thing in the eyes of God that the creations worship the created more than the creator.

The Son of God is not a created being, we Christians would assert that he is indeed the creator. So, we don't violate that which you appear to be most concerned about. But rather, we would hold that in your assertion that we who worship Jesus worship the created that you are doing the terrible thing of calling the creator nothing more than a part of his creation.

It all depends on where you are standing, just what you will see.

[Grace Seeker]

I'd like to add two more things to those:

- He will break the crosses
- He will kill the pigs (Jews)

lol since when did killing an animal make you a murderer? And there was no parallel to begin with; mangod vs prophet of god?

Abdul Qadir's posts seems to equate pigs and Jews -- at least that is my understanding as to why he has inserted the word "Jews" in the parenthesis, to explain that by pigs he actually means Jews. (If that is not what he means I would like for him to clear that up for me please.)

So, to say that he will kill the pigs is identical to saying that he will kill the Jews.

Are you now saying that human beings who are Jews should not be thought of as anything more than as an animal? Or that the killing of a Jew should not be considered murder?

[Grace Seeker]

the Quran tells us the good news(Heaven) and warns us repeatedly(about Hell)....Yes, Allah loves us 70 times more than the most loving mother in the world...but that is for those who deserve it...

Then I guess we are all bound for hell, for none of us can ever truly claim to "deserve" it.

[Ramadhan]

This is what is in Revelation:

'And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.' Revelation 19: 11-15.

This is in reference to the Second Coming. So yes, at the end of the age, Jesus will make war with the Beast Antichrist and his kingdom.

So in plainer words, Jesus pbuh would have no qualms in killing the anti christ and other wicked people.

[Grace Seeker]

So in plainer words, Jesus pbuh would have no qualms in killing the anti christ and other wicked people.

According to the book of Revelation it would appear that in his second coming Christ will indeed do battle against and slay those who are in rebellion. Whether he has qualms about doing so the text does not say. As to their wickedness, that is not specified either but I feel that it is safe to say one might infer that they are indeed wicked, but that wickedness would extended to those who saw themselves as "good" but were in rebellion against God and Christ and as such would include all who were unwilling to recognize the Lamb of God (i.e., Christ) as being legitimately on the throne of heaven.

[Ramadhan]

Now, finally, I think you are getting to something that represents the character of Jesus. I think that Jesus would enter most churches primarily to ask them to get with the program. To start going about the task he commissioned them to be about, that is making disciples. He didn't ask us to become some sort of sanctified rotary or country club. However, I also don't think that is inclusive of all churches, but mostly those in westernized nations. There are plenty of churches (even a few in the west) that have something other than their own self-aggrandizement motivating them, and that are genuinely seeking to know God and serve him as his ambassadors in this world.

Aaahhh... you must have missed my previous post about the main reason Jesus pbuh would never enter a church in the first place:

Jesus pbuh would never enter a church because then he would be forced to worship his own self.
Remember in the bible, Jesus pbuh always said to worship God only, The One.

Churches used as money spinning enterprises is only the supporting reason why Jesus pbuh would never enter a church.

[Ramadhan]

According to the book of Revelation it would appear that in his second coming Christ will indeed do battle against and slay those who are in rebellion. Whether he has qualms about doing so the text does not say. As to their wickedness, that is not specified either but I feel that it is safe to say one might infer that they are indeed wicked, but that wickedness would extended to those who saw themselves as "good" but were in rebellion against God and Christ and as such would include all who were unwilling to recognize the Lamb of God (i.e., Christ) as being legitimately on the throne of heaven.

Finally, a christian who acknowledge that Jesus pbuh would be a murderer. because in previous posts, other christians flatly denied that Jesus pbuh would be a murderer, dressing up in words such as "loving", "forgive all sins" etc.
so, no more "turn your left cheek" kumbaya-style non-sensical phrases, huh?

[Grace Seeker]

Finally, a christian who acknowledge that Jesus pbuh would be a murderer. because in previous posts, other christians flatly denied that Jesus pbuh would be a murderer, dressing up in words such as "loving", "forgive all sins" etc.
so, no more "turn your left cheek" kumbaya-style non-sensical phrases, huh?

I said Jesus would kill. Is a soldier in war a murderer?

[Grace Seeker]

Aaahhh... you must have missed my previous post about the main reason Jesus pbuh would never enter a church in the first place:

Jesus pbuh would never enter a church because then he would be forced to worship his own self.
Remember in the bible, Jesus pbuh always said to worship God only, The One.

Churches used as money spinning enterprises is only the supporting reason why Jesus pbuh would never enter a church.

Yes, I knew that. I concur that there is some validity in your supporting reason. I do not acknowledge what you see as the main reason to have any basis in fact.

[Ramadhan]

The command concerning not eating pork is found in Leviticus, it is not a law of Jesus. Jesus gave one command: Love one another as I have loved you. And when asked about the greatest command, he said to "love God" and then he added that along with that one was also to "love your neighbor". Jesus didn't say to not eat pork.

interesting.
So according to christian interpretation. Anything Jesus pbuh was and did is of holds no relevance whatsoever to the faith.

No wonder current practices of christians are so removed from what Jesus pbuh was and did.
It seems that as long as you believe that Jesus pbuh died on the cross to expiate all your sins, then you can do whatever you want, regardless of jesus pbuh examples and teachings.

an example:

http://www.newsfromafrica.org/articles/art_10231.html

All over Rwandan hills, valleys and mountains, thousands of crosses
mark mass graves of genocide victims of 1994. During the genocide, many
Tutsis were massacred in or around places of worship, including Catholic churches – paradoxically, in a country which was the most Christianised in Africa, with Christians representing more than 80% of the population. Catholic bishops in Rwanda have sometimes claimed that all Rwandans believe in God. (Kinyamateka, No. 1614, January 2003, pg. 6) There are hundreds of churches and chapels everywhere and almost every day followers repeatedly recite the prayer, “Our Father who art in heaven”, pleading with the Father to deliver them from evil (Matthew 6:13). From where, then, did the malevolence at the root of the genocide come? How and by whom could it have been overcome? Part of the answer to these questions is the Church and its members.


http://www.afrol.com/Countries/Rwand...s_genocide.htm

The 1994 Rwandan genocide, killing an estimated 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus, is made even more incomprehensible by the documented participation of many representatives of Rwandan church societies. How could God fearing nuns, and even a bishop, take part in the most cruel crimes against humanity committed on African soil? Even worse, several church societies allegedly were co-responsible for the growing hatred that led to the genocide. It remains an enormous contradiction to the Christian Message of Love.

The pattern is very clear. Throughout history, the churches have always conducted evils so shocking that when Jesus pbuh had been around, he would have battled wars against them and killed those evil and wicked people, and definitely not coming to them and say "your sins are forgiven", "do you want to slap my left cheek" and "lets hold hands and sing kumbaya"

Quote:
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has [/b]sent[/B]." (John 6:28-29)

So according to this verse, God sent Jesus pbuh. So God did not come down to the earth Himself (unlike the belief of prevailing greek/latin/roman/pagan faith who portrayed God as coming down to the earth. Otherwise Jesus pbuh woudl have said "to believe in me, your god who has come down to the earth"
This verse is very clear, unless you want to twist it around and around.

[Ramadhan]

Yes, I knew that. I concur that there is some validity in your supporting reason. I do not acknowledge what you see as the main reason to have any basis in fact.

Maybe it's time for you to read your bible again, and see if Jesus pbuh ever told his people to worship him.

[Grace Seeker]

Maybe it's time for you to read your bible again, and see if Jesus pbuh ever told his people to worship him.

He told people to worship exactly as many times as he told people to NOT worship him. Beyond that red herring, I've noted more than once on this forum that there are several times when people did worship Jesus and he accepted that worship of him.

[Grace Seeker]

interesting.
So according to christian interpretation. Anything Jesus pbuh was and did is of holds no relevance whatsoever to the faith.

No wonder current practices of christians are so removed from what Jesus pbuh was and did.
It seems that as long as you believe that Jesus pbuh died on the cross to expiate all your sins, then you can do whatever you want, regardless of jesus pbuh examples and teachings.

Christianity teaches no such thing, and it is a slander concotted by people who desire not to deceive others with regard to our teaches that Christians are not accountable for our actions. Jesus' taking of our sins upon himself demands that we give all of our allegiance to him, we are not our own but his. We cannot do whatever we want, we are to live according to his will for our lives. But that will simply does not include the keeping of the levitical rituals for non-Jewish Christians.

That some persons claiming to be followers of Christ have done terrible things I acknowledge. I myself, though not having done any of the crimes you listed above, have not always been faithful to follow Christ as I ought. There is no excuse for this. We need to confess our sins. Confession means to acknowledge that we are in the wrong and not living in accordance with the will of God. Of course we pray that God might forgivess, but that is for God to decide. Our job is to get back on track and begin to live in harmony and submission to God's direction for our lives. But to make that about something like ritual cleanness as set forth in the Levitical code is not what God is asking from us. Ritual cleanliness is not even what it ever meant for Jews to keep Torah, and was what Jesus himself often objected to in criticizing the religious establishment of his day, that they kept every jot and tittle of the law but neglected its spirit.

[Ramadhan]

He told people to worship exactly as many times as he told people to NOT worship him. Beyond that red herring, I've noted more than once on this forum that there are several times when people did worship Jesus and he accepted that worship of him.

Please bring forth the bible verses where Jesus pbuh told directly loud and clear to worship him, and let's compare to the bible verses where he told directly loud and clear to worship only God.

[Ramadhan]

That some persons claiming to be followers of Christ have done terrible things I acknowledge. I myself, though not having done any of the crimes you listed above, have not always been faithful to follow Christ as I ought. There is no excuse for this. We need to confess our sins. Confession means to acknowledge that we are in the wrong and not living in accordance with the will of God. Of course we pray that God might forgivess, but that is for God to decide. Our job is to get back on track and begin to live in harmony and submission to God's direction for our lives. But to make that about something like ritual cleanness as set forth in the Levitical code is not what God is asking from us. Ritual cleanliness is not even what it ever meant for Jews to keep Torah, and was what Jesus himself often objected to in criticizing the religious establishment of his day, that they kept every jot and tittle of the law but neglected its spirit.

I see.
So, according to your interpretation of Jesus teachings, those priests and nuns who killed directly and helped slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people in Rwanda should just confess to God, and their sins are forgiven and all is well in the kumbaya land?

And who decided which laws are applicable only to the jews? and where do you set boundaries as to which laws are for jews and which laws are for gentiles?

[Ramadhan]

Back on topic,

Jesus pbuh would never go to church to pray because churches have become place for sexual deviants and perversion.

see: sexual abuse, children molestation, sexual perversities and deviances throughout the church history done by the church authority themselves.
That is the perks obtained by "those arcane restricting laws are for the jews only, for us we can just confess and halleluja!"

[Supreme]

Please bring forth the bible verses where Jesus pbuh told directly loud and clear to worship him, and let's compare to the bible verses where he told directly loud and clear to worship only God.

He is only God, therefore worshipping Him is worshipping God.

Jesus pbuh would never go to church to pray because churches have become place for sexual deviants and perversion.

Ouch, geez louis, bold claim. Any evidence for that? I assume you're referring to the Catholic cases of peadophilia by priests, and whilst they're rare, I agree Jesus would never enter a Catholic church- He'd only ever visit a Protestant one! Problem solved duderino.

see.
So, according to your interpretation of Jesus teachings, those priests and nuns who killed directly and helped slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people in Rwanda should just confess to God, and their sins are forgiven and all is well in the kumbaya land

Again, this is more of a thing against the corrupt Catholic church than Christians, including Catholics, in general. Do you have any quarrels with Christians aside from a select elite residing in the Vatican? Of course people who commit genocide will be punished duly. They shall be punished, but one day, perhaps in the hereafter, God shall extend His mercy upon them.

[Grace Seeker]

I see.
So, according to your interpretation of Jesus teachings, those priests and nuns who killed directly and helped slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people in Rwanda should just confess to God, and their sins are forgiven and all is well in the kumbaya land?

No, that is not what I said. I said that people should own what they have done. Whether they are to be forgiven or not is up to God to decide -- i.e., Allah knows best. Surely you can't object to leaving such decisions in God's hands?

They need to also be prepared to accept whatever consequences might be meted out to them in this life by civil authorities.

And who decided which laws are applicable only to the jews? and where do you set boundaries as to which laws are for jews and which laws are for gentiles?

God already did. He made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That covenant binds Israel, but it has never bound any other people.

[Grace Seeker]

Please bring forth the bible verses where Jesus pbuh told directly loud and clear to worship him, and let's compare to the bible verses where he told directly loud and clear to worship only God.

I never said that jesus told people to worship him. I said he told people to worship him exactly as many times as he told people to NOT worship him. If you believe Jesus told people to NOT worship him, then it is incombant on you to bring forth the Bible verses where Jesus told directly, loud, and clear "Do NOT worship me." Find me just one where he words it that way.

[mkh4JC]

Back on topic,

Jesus pbuh would never go to church to pray because churches have become place for sexual deviants and perversion.

see: sexual abuse, children molestation, sexual perversities and deviances throughout the church history done by the church authority themselves.
That is the perks obtained by "those arcane restricting laws are for the jews only, for us we can just confess and halleluja!"

I see.
So, according to your interpretation of Jesus teachings, those priests and nuns who killed directly and helped slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people in Rwanda should just confess to God, and their sins are forgiven and all is well in the kumbaya land?

Again. Not everyone who calls themselves Christians are really Christ's. There are many people living in this world who go to church on Sunday and live like hell Monday through Saturday. Here's what Jesus said:

'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name have done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity' (hidden sin). Matthew 7: 21-23.

Jesus won't say, I knew you but you backslid. He will tell them he never knew them period. And these are people who are going around supposedly casting out devils.

Also, consider this passage:

'For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening God dealeth with you as sons, for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievious: nevertheless afteward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of rightouesness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-11.

I repeat, you CANNOT just accept Christ and then begin to live any old kind of lifestyle that you want, because you have now accepted him and he died for your sins. If you do so, if you begin to live any old kind of lifestyle you want, then that is evidence that you were never saved to begin with. I can't stress this enough. I know from experience what is like to be chastened by God, for sinning when I first accepted the Lord as my savior. I have been chastened sore for going on seven years now, and if I were to tell you the things that I have had to endure for sinning as a Christian, you'd consider them lies.

[aadil77]

I don't understand how laws with in the bible only somehow apply to one group and not everyone, shouldn't god's law apply to all of mankind

[Nathaniel]

I don't understand how laws with in the bible only somehow apply to one group and not everyone, shouldn't god's law apply to all of mankind

Good question, aadil77. There are basically three types of laws in the torah (the first five books of the Bible: moral, ceremonial and civil. It is useful to look at the purposes of these different types:

• Moral laws apply to all people at all times: this is God's universal standard upon which He judges everyone. All these laws, in the end, come down to two things: loving God, and loving your fellow human beings.
• Ceremonial laws applied to all believers until Jesus' death (because Jesus' death fulfilled these laws) - these are the laws about things like circumcision and sacrificing animals: these laws are symbolic, and their purpose is to provide outward expressions of faith. For example, circumcision is an outward expression of commitment and obedience to God, and is symbolic of the perfect standard of holiness that God requires of his people.
• Civil laws applied to all those in the land of Israel when it was nation: these laws were the civil regulations of Israel, and have to do with the nation's law-enforcement and order.

It is only the moral laws which tell us what is right and wrong (and thus what it is to sin), and so it is these laws which have always applied (and will always apply) to all people.

I hope this helps! Do ask more questions if you would like some more information or if this isn't clear. : )

[Ramadhan]

He is only God, therefore worshipping Him is worshipping God.

Ok, if that is so, please bring the verses where Jesus pbuh says "Worship me".

Ouch, geez louis, bold claim. Any evidence for that? I assume you're referring to the Catholic cases of peadophilia by priests, and whilst they're rare, I agree Jesus would never enter a Catholic church- He'd only ever visit a Protestant one! Problem solved duderino.

sexual deviances in churches are rare?? Are you challenging me and want me to produce historical evidence of all kinds of sexual perversions that have been going on inside churches since the dark ages? I can do it if you want me to, but I thought I might save some good christians here from further embarrassment.
I have no doubt that the perversions will not end at any time, case in point: gay marriages in a church are getting more and more accepted in western churches.

You also forget that those church sexual perversions is not the main reason why Jesus pbuh would not go to a church to pray. Please read my previous posts just in case you forget.

Again, this is more of a thing against the corrupt Catholic church than Christians, including Catholics, in general. Do you have any quarrels with Christians aside from a select elite residing in the Vatican? Of course people who commit genocide will be punished duly. They shall be punished, but one day, perhaps in the hereafter, God shall extend His mercy upon them.

Nope, I have no quarrels whatsoever with vatican/catholics/christians. I am only highlighting the fundamental flaws in the church and its philosophy.

[Ramadhan]

No, that is not what I said. I said that people should own what they have done. Whether they are to be forgiven or not is up to God to decide -- i.e., Allah knows best. Surely you can't object to leaving such decisions in God's hands?

So, according to you, those evil-doers should not be punished. Christians don't believe Jesus pbuh laws apply to them, and christians believe in "turn your left cheek if your right cheek is slapped".
and if one has sin, a confession is enough to forgive all sins.
Logically, christians would just have to let those evil priests, bishops and nuns to confess their sins to god without giving them any earthly punishments.

They need to also be prepared to accept whatever consequences might be meted out to them in this life by civil authorities.

hence, there is complete disconnect between christianity as a religion with daily/earthly/worldly/practical affairs.

God already did. He made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That covenant binds Israel, but it has never bound any other people.

so God is discriminatory. God's laws are applicable only to jews, since according to christians god is a jew. For non-jews, you can do anything you desire as long as you confess after and sings halleluja!

[Ramadhan]

I never said that jesus told people to worship him. I said he told people to worship him exactly as many times as he told people to NOT worship him. If you believe Jesus told people to NOT worship him, then it is incombant on you to bring forth the Bible verses where Jesus told directly, loud, and clear "Do NOT worship me." Find me just one where he words it that way.

I know that christianity faith of man-as-a-god-as-a-man and three-in-one-but-really-is-three requires one hell of a cognitive dissonance exercise, but this logic from you takes the cake.

1. So jesus pbuh clearly in the bible repeatedly told his people to worships only god (he referred to as the father)
2. according to you, Jesus pbuh never told his people to worship him
3. according to you, Jesus pbuh never told his people not to worship him

hence, we must worship Jesus pbuh?

So, can we now go and start worshipping Paul?
After all, Jesus pbuh never told us to worship him but Jesus pbuh also never told us not to worship him. Paul also said to worships god, no? But paul also never told us to worship him or not worship him, no?

[Ramadhan]

Again. Not everyone who calls themselves Christians are really Christ's. There are many people living in this world who go to church on Sunday and live like hell Monday through Saturday. Here's what Jesus said:

'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name have done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity' (hidden sin). Matthew 7: 21-23.

Jesus won't say, I knew you but you backslid. He will tell them he never knew them period. And these are people who are going around supposedly casting out devils.

Also, consider this passage:

'For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening God dealeth with you as sons, for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievious: nevertheless afteward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of rightouesness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-11.

I repeat, you CANNOT just accept Christ and then begin to live any old kind of lifestyle that you want, because you have now accepted him and he died for your sins. If you do so, if you begin to live any old kind of lifestyle you want, then that is evidence that you were never saved to begin with. I can't stress this enough. I know from experience what is like to be chastened by God, for sinning when I first accepted the Lord as my savior. I have been chastened sore for going on seven years now, and if I were to tell you the things that I have had to endure for sinning as a Christian, you'd consider them lies.

You forgot one important detail:
Those perpetrators of evil, killers and sexual abusers and deviants were not just ordinary christians who just go to church every sunday:
They were priests, nuns, bishops, evangelists, preachers, popes.
Not just catholic church, but all kinds of denominations.
And the perversions that have been going on since the dark ages are documented, if only captured just tiny bits of the whole crimes.
And it is still occurring, and I have no doubt it will only to always continue.

Hence, the problem seems not only lies on individual choices, but there have to be some fundamental flaws with the church itself or its philosophy.

[mkh4JC]

You forgot one important detail:
Those perpetrators of evil, killers and sexual abusers and deviants were not just ordinary christians who just go to church every sunday:
They were priests, nuns, bishops, evangelists, preachers.
Not just catholic church, but all kinds of denominations.
And the perversions that have been going on since the dark ages are documented, if only captured just tiny bits of the whole crimes.
And it is still occurring, and I have no doubt it will only to always continue.

Hence, the problem seems not only lies on individual choices, but there have to be some fundamental flaws with the church itself or its philosophy.

All I can tell you is, based on how I know God works in the life of believers, I find it very hard to believe that someone who is truly Christian can go to such an extreme as to take another person's life. God is always disciplining and chastening us as Christians, even our thought life. And Jesus said in the Gospels, 'He who kills with the sword must perish with the sword.' So already they are disobeying one of Jesus' teachings.

[Ramadhan]

I said Jesus would kill. Is a soldier in war a murderer?

Now we are getting somewhere.
So, Jesus would kill people.
No more "turn your left cheek" and sing "halleluia"

[glo]

Good question, aadil77. There are basically three types of laws in the torah (the first five books of the Bible: moral, ceremonial and civil. It is useful to look at the purposes of these different types:

• Moral laws apply to all people at all times: this is God's universal standard upon which He judges everyone. All these laws, in the end, come down to two things: loving God, and loving your fellow human beings.
• Ceremonial laws applied to all believers until Jesus' death (because Jesus' death fulfilled these laws) - these are the laws about things like circumcision and sacrificing animals: these laws are symbolic, and their purpose is to provide outward expressions of faith. For example, circumcision is an outward expression of commitment and obedience to God, and is symbolic of the perfect standard of holiness that God requires of his people.
• Civil laws applied to all those in the land of Israel when it was nation: these laws were the civil regulations of Israel, and have to do with the nation's law-enforcement and order.

It is only the moral laws which tell us what is right and wrong (and thus what it is to sin), and so it is these laws which have always applied (and will always apply) to all people.

I hope this helps! Do ask more questions if you would like some more information or if this isn't clear. : )

Thank you for sharing that, Nathaniel.

May (some of) the ceremonial and civil laws still be of meaning to Christians today, or not at all?
It would be a very interesting exercise to go though all the Jewish laws and sort the laws into their own category.
Do you know if that can be easily done, or if there are laws where scholars are undecided which category they fall into?

God bless.

[glo]

According to the book of Revelation it would appear that in his second coming Christ will indeed do battle against and slay those who are in rebellion. Whether he has qualms about doing so the text does not say. As to their wickedness, that is not specified either but I feel that it is safe to say one might infer that they are indeed wicked, but that wickedness would extended to those who saw themselves as "good" but were in rebellion against God and Christ and as such would include all who were unwilling to recognize the Lamb of God (i.e., Christ) as being legitimately on the throne of heaven.

Now we are getting somewhere.
So, Jesus would kill people.
No more "turn your left cheek" and sing "halleluia"

I hope you two don't mind me offering my own thoughts on this.
It may or may not be theologically sound, but I am sure Grace Seeker can offer his knowledge to put me right, if necessary.

I have a sense that we are talking about two Jesus' - the human Jesus and the divine Jesus.

Christians believe that the first and foremost reason that God came to earth as man, was to reconcile mankind to himself.
But as a consequence of God coming to earth we now have the man Jesus, who gives us the perfect example of perfect living - through his teachings, his parables and his actions.

I must say that if I look to the man Jesus, I find him to give me examples of peaceful, loving and caring living.
He did say 'turn the other cheek'; he did say 'walk the extra mile'; he did say 'lay you life down for your brother'; he did tell his disciples to put away their swords and healed the soldier's severed ear; he did heal and help wherever he went; etc, etc ...
If I choose to follow Jesus, then really and truly he is calling me to a life of loving and caring, seeking peace and harmony with all.

It is true that Jesus said he had come to cause division - and by saying that he points to the other Jesus, the divine Jesus.
Jesus causes people to fall into two groups: those who follow him (I think the idea of who follows or doesn't follow Jesus is a very interesting one, and perhaps deserves another discussion elsewhere ...) and those who refuse to follow him.

The divine Jesus will come to do battle against evil in the last days.
That will be a divine act of divine justice. How can we pass judgment on God?? That would be blasphemous to an extreme!

God's judgement is above and beyond us all.

But the man Jesus shows us how to live a good and righteous life.

Am I making sense?

[Ramadhan]

Let's go back on topic:

Jesus would not worship in a church because he said:

(Matthew 15:9):
“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Men make all doctrines of modern Christianity: the Trinity, Divine Sonship of Jesus, Divinity of Jesus Christ, Original Sin and Atonement.

[Ramadhan]

Again,
I don't think I have stressed enough the interesting fact that current Islamic teachings and practices much more resemble Jesus pbuh teachings and practices?

The life of a good muslim reflects much more the life of Jesus pbuh than the life of a good christian does.

[Ramadhan]

The point of this thread is to show christians to closely examine the real life and teachings and practices of Jesus pbuh and to contrast them with the current teachings/commands/practices of christianity/church of any denomination.

I just find it staggering that christians would rather follow the church and all of their made up rituals, doctrines, teachings and practices, and discard almost everything that Jesus pbuh did.

Christians believe Jesus pbuh is god, and apparently what was good for god is not good enough for men.
How more blasphemous can you get than this.

[Nathaniel]

Thank you for sharing that, Nathaniel.

May (some of) the ceremonial and civil laws still be of meaning to Christians today, or not at all?
It would be a very interesting exercise to go though all the Jewish laws and sort the laws into their own category.
Do you know if that can be easily done, or if there are laws where scholars are undecided which category they fall into?

God bless.

Certainly all of the ceremonial and civil laws can have meaning today - but we have to look at the reasons God commanded them at that point in history. These reasons show us the underlying principles (like commitment, holiness) that certainly apply to us today. Ultimately, they all point towards Jesus' fulfilment (completion) of the Law in his life and death, and it is through the lens of this fulfilment that we can see more clearly these principles.

I think the Torah makes it pretty clear which laws are moral, ceremonial and civil, but I've not personally gone through them all to try and categorise them - though I think it would definitely be a good thing to do. Can you think of any examples which would be difficult to categorise?

[glo]

I think the Torah makes it pretty clear which laws are moral, ceremonial and civil, but I've not personally gone through them all to try and categorise them - though I think it would definitely be a good thing to do. Can you think of any examples which would be difficult to categorise?

Not off the top of my head.
Like you said, it might be an interesting exercise to go through. :)

[Nathaniel]

I was just thinking about the question this morning, and the more I thought about it, the more clear the answer is.
There has been strong movement especially in the USA called WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) to speculate about the actions of Jesus pbuh had he lived among us now.

If Jesus pbuh lived today, what would he be?

Let's see:
- He would believe in one God
- He would establish daily prayer and worships to God
- He would be circumcised
- He would not eat pork
- He would fast on certain days
- He would give alms/zakat
(these facts are from the Bible)

Based on the above characteristics, people would think he's a muslim, of course.

What do you think?

I'm interested as to where Jesus establishes a routine of regular prayer in the Bible, and where he teaches the people should fast on particular days. Could you show me?

I'd also be interested in any evidence that shows that Jesus taught that the Mosaic Law applied to Gentiles as well as Jews.

[Ramadhan]

Back on topic,

Jesus pbuh would not go to a church to pray, because he would be forced to see and pray to statue of himself (often half naked), nailed to a cross.

The likeness of Jesus pbuh (and Mary pbuh and other people) are so prevalent in all churches, even though christians are aware that that is something NOT allowed by Jesus pbuh, as he said:

Deutronomy 5:7-9] “Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight. Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them.”

More proof that Jesus pbuh would rather pray and worship in a mosque.

[Ramadhan]

Jesus pbuh and fasting:


What Jesus Said About Fasting !

The Gospel of Matthew shows that Jesus “fasted forty days and forty nights” (Matthew 4:21). The Gospel of Luke adds the detail that “in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered” (Luke 4:2). Since Jesus fasted, his true followers will also fast, if they indeed follow his teachings. He said, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed” (John 8:31).

People had complained to Jesus saying, “Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?” (Luke 5:33). But Jesus replied that as long as he is with them his disciples should not fast, but after he is taken away then “they will fast in those days” (Luke 5:35). This is why Jesus also gave them instructions on how to fast for the sake of God (Matthew 6:16-18). If they were never to fast, such instructions would be pointless. The Bible shows that the disciples were fasting afterwards: “they had fasted and prayed” (Acts 13:3), and again they had “prayed with fasting” (Acts 14:23).

The Bible mentions fasting as one of the observances of a minister of God (2 Corinthians 6:5), and “fasting often” as a proof of the worth of a disciple of Jesus.

Luke 5:33 quoted above reveals that (a) fasting means abstinence from eating and drinking, and, (b) that although the disciples were not to fast until after Jesus was taken away, Jesus himself continued to fast, otherwise the complaint would have been against him also. It is clear that the Jewish Rabbis were fasting (Matthew 9:14, and Mark 2:18). And Jesus too was called a Rabbi (see John 1:38; 3:2; 6:25 and Matthew 23:8). So he too must have been
fasting.

The disciples were unable to drive out a demon from a boy, but Jesus drove it out. When the disciples asked how he did it, he said that this kind can be driven out only “by prayer and fasting” (Mark 9:29). This shows that because the disciples were not fasting they could not drive out the demon, and, that Jesus could drive it out because he was fasting. Some copyists attempted to change this verse by leaving out the words ‘and fasting’. This is how, for example, the Revised Standard Version reads. But this reading gives the passage an impossible meaning that Jesus’s disciples were not praying either. This is perhaps why the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version restores the words ‘and fasting’. The New Testament From the Ancient Eastern Text also includes the words ‘and fasting’ (Mark 9:29).

God rescued us from this uncertainty by revealing his final incorruptible message in which He instructs all able believers to fast for a month each year. Today Jesus' true followers are still fasting according to God's pure instructions. Muslims are the true followers of Jesus and all of God's Messengers.

All Bible references are to the King James Version except where stated otherwise.

http://www.beconvinced.com/archive/e...20Christianity

[Ramadhan]

Jesus pbuh and pray:

How did Jesus (P.B.U.H) Pray? Print E-mail

How did Jesus (Peace and Blessing be Upon Him) pray?

Some of you may be wondering, “How did Jesus pray?” Below are a few events and times that the Bible describes Jesus praying to His Father in Heaven.

Jesus prayed for guidance in places of quiet solitude - “Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed” (Mark 1:35)

“But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed” (Luke 5:16).

Jesus prayed in a posture and with an attitude of reverent submission - “Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will’” (Matthew 26:39).

See how Muslims Pray.

Prayers-

What did disciples say about Jesus: "What did they see in his life that wrung this cry from their hearts?" What was it that impressed them as they watched Jesus pray and convinced them that his prayer life and his amazing power and wisdom were somehow together?

They saw first of all that, with Jesus, prayer was a necessity. It was more than an occasional practice on his part, it was a lifelong habit. It was an attitude of mind and heart. It was an atmosphere in which he lived, it was the very air he breathed. Everything he did arose out of prayer

http://www.findingtruth.net/index.ph...mid=68&lang=en

[Nathaniel]

naidamar,

These verses show that Jesus valued prayer and fasting, and I agree entirely. But I am looking for verses which show that Jesus taught regular daily prayers (say, 5 times a day) and annual fasting (for a month). There reason I'm asking for this is simple: unless you can establish that Jesus prayed and fasted in a distinctly Islamic way, there is no way to distinguish (at least using your criteria) whether Jesus was a Jew or a Muslim. In order to show that he was a Muslim, you're going to have to come up with a criterion that doesn't also apply to Jews.

[Ramadhan]

Jesus pbuh would pray very similarly to these:

[Predator]

Is Jesus really a Muslim? »Jesus is a Muslim

Luke 6:40 (KJV)
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Read it in the language of Jesus

“Ein talmeed na’leh ‘al rabbo; shekken kal adam she’MUSHLAM yihyeh k’rabbo.”

“No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher.”

Jesus taught to rinse before Praying as Muslims do {John 13:10}

Jesus bowed down in Submission on the Ground to God as Muslims do {Matthew 26:39}

Jesus said, all of You who Submit your will to God, are my true Brothers and Sisters (Mark 3:31-35) as Muslims do

Jesus taught Salvation comes from Submitting your will to God and Faith as Muslims do .

(Matthew 7:21-23) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

Behold my servant(Jesus), whom I(God) have chosen.”-
[Matthew 12:18]

“The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, hath glorified his servant Jesus.”-
[Acts 3:13] (RSV)

“For of a truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hast anointed….”-
[Acts 4:27] (RSV)

“Say He is God, the One and Only God, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him!”
Qur’an112:1-4

“So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again) “Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is.”-
Quran -19:33-35

CHASTITY BEFORE MARRIAGE AND LOYALTY AFTER MARRIAGE AND SIMILITUDE WITH MOTHER MARY(PBUH)

Our beloved last Prophet Muhammad, has said
“Mary is the leader of all the women of the world, in paradise and heaven.”

Mary was a pure and chaste virgin. Her body was the temple of God, not a fleshly plaything. In our day, promiscuity and prostitution and premarital intercourse are reaching proportions that are almost unbelievable. Thousands of people in America have moral standards about like those of an alley cat.The students heard that the Muslim tradition of modest dress and of women covering their hair comes from the example Mary set with her chastity. Michigan Catholic (Sep29,2006,p.10) says”girls wore headscarves and leggings for their legs,to comply with Muslim standards of modesty

” ‘And every woman who prays or prophesies with her hair uncovered dishonors her hair – it is just as though her hair were shave(Corinthians 11:4-10) First Thessalonians 4:3-5 says, “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from fornication; that each one you know how to control your own body in holiness and honor, not with lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God.

http://www.brfwitness.org /Articles/2000v35n6.htm St. Tertullian (the first man to formulate the Trinity), in his treatise, On the Veiling of Virgins, even obliged its use at home: ‘Young women, you wear you veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church; you wear them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers.’ So Islam didn’t invent the veil, it merely clarifies that it is simply a sign of faith, modesty and chastity which serves to protect the devout from molestation.

O Prophet! Tell you wives and daughters and the believing women that they should case their cloaks over their bodies (when outdoors) so that they be recognized as such (decent, and chaste believers) and not molested.
The Holy Qur’an,

MUSLIM GREETS LIKE JESUS(PBUH)

In ancient times, the prophets of God including Moses, Joseph, David, Jesus, the angles of God and many others have made it their custom to greet the believers with the words ” Peace be unto you”.
Can anyone guess what Muhammad taught his followers to say when greeting each other or departing from each other? You guessed it! “Assalam alaikum” or “Peace be unto you .”
Have you ever met a Christian who greets others with the words of Jesus: “Peace be unto you” or departs with those words? Genesis 43:23 “And he said, Peace be to you, fear not: your God, and the God of your father, hath given you treasure in your sacks: I had your money. And he brought Simeon out unto them.”
Judges 6:23

“And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.”
1 Samuel 25:6

“And thus shall ye say to him that liveth in prosperity, Peace be both to thee, and peace be to thine house, and peace be unto all that thou hast.”
Numbers 6:26

“The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.”
1 Samuel 1:17

“Then Eli answered and said, Go in peace”
Luke 24:36

“And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.”
John 20:19

“came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.”
John 20:26

“.then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.”
Luke 10:5

“And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say,Peace be to this house.”

Can anyone guess what Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) taught his followers to say when greeting each other or departing from each other? You guessed it! “Assalam alaikum” or ” Peace be unto you.” Have you ever met a Christian who greets others with the words of Jesus: “Peace be unto you” or departs with those words?

MUSLIM PROSTRATE TO GOD LIKE JESUS(PBUH)

When a prays or thanks God he does so in same fashion that was taught to Abraham, Moses, Jesus(pbut)& all of prophets of Allah.You will find that when a Muslim prays he places his forehead on the ground in total submission to God Almighty. Let us see how the prophetsprayed.

Genesis 17:3 “And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,”

Genesis 17:17 “Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?”

Exodus 34:8 “And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.”

Numbers 16:20-22 “And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?”

Joshua 5:14 “And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?”

Ezekiel 9:8 “And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?”

2 Chronicles 20:18 “And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD.”

Ezekiel 11:13 “Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?” Matthew

17:6 “And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.”

Matthew 26:39 “And he ( Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass f

MUSLIM BELIEVE THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDES GOD

I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
(Isaiah 43:11)

Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me.
(Hosea 13:4)

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
(Luke 1:47)

These verses refute the Christian phrase “Jesus is my lord and saviour”. There is no Saviour besides Yahweh! Jesus never claimed to be “Lord and Saviour” to the Jews. He explicitly said “I do not accept praise from men” (John 5:41)

“In vain do they worship me” (Matthew 15:9, Mark 7:7) and “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) etc.

A TRUE MUSLIMS WILL NEVER TOUCH WINE/Gambling

“Do not drink wine nor strong drink
(Leviticus 10:9)

“Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
(Proverbs 20:1)

“*****dom and wine and new wine take away the heart.
(Hosea 4:11)

“Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
(Romans 13:13)

“Since an overseer is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.
(Titus 1:7)

Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover
of money.
(1Timothy 3:2-3)

Gambling prohibited in bible

“He that hastens to be rich hath an evil eye, and considers not that poverty shall come upon him.”
Proverbs 28:22

The Holy Quran, 5.90:
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan’s handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

ONLY MUSLIMS CALL FOR PRAYER THROUGH AZAAN

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, make thee two trumpets of silver.. that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly.. And when they shall blow whit them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.”-(NUMBERS 10:1-3).

MUSLIMS COME TO THE MOSQUE IN BARE FEET

the faithful come to the mosque and take off their shoes so that they may enter the house of worship in bare feet…

“When he came to the Fire, a voice was uttered: O Moses! I am thy Lord, therefore put off thy shoes, for thou art in the sacred valley of Tuwa.”-
(HOLY QURAN 20:11-12).

(And God said to Moses), “Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”-
(EXODUS 3:5, also ACTS 7:33).

MUSLIMS MAKE ABULTION BEFORE PRAYERS, WASHING THEIR FACES, HANDS AND FEET

“And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat; when they went into tent of the conregation they washed as the Lord commanded Moses.”-
(EXODUS 40:31-32).

“Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple…”-
(ACTS 21:26)

“O you who belive! When you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles.”-(HOLY QURAN 5:7)

MUSLIMS FACE THAT GREAT MOSQUE IN MECCA WHILE PRAYING

“So turn thy face toward the Sacred Mosque, and (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces toward it.”-
(HOLY QURAN 2:144).

“Now when Daniel…went into his house; and his window being open in his chamber towards Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.”-
(DANIEL 6:10)


MUSLIMS DONT KEEP IMAGES OF ANY PROPHET IN MOSQUE/HOME

The MUSLIM MOSQUE/HOME is a place of peace and serenity, without images or idols of worship, and simple, with a carpet on which to stand or sit, and meditate. “God forgiveth not (the sin of) joining other gods with Him;…one who joins other gods with God, hath strayed far, far away (from the Right).”-
(HOLY QURAN 4:116).

“I am the Lord thy God…Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them.”-
(THE FIRST COMMANDMENT, EXODUS 20:2-5).

MUSLIMS REJECT EATING PORK

“And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you”….” Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you.” [Leviticus 11:7-8]

“And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass.”[Deuteronomy 14:8]

“Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah.”[Al-Qur'an 5:3]

ONLY MUSLIMS BLESS PROPHET ABRAHAM AND THE PEOPLE OF PROPHET ABRAHAM FIVE TIMES A DAY

Do you KNOW Every time we pray and prostrate to God 5 time a Day, we end our prayer by sitting on our knees and say the following exact quote:


“..and bless Prophet Muhammad and his people,like You blessed Prophet Abraham and his people”

Genesis 12:1-31

The LORD had said to Abraham, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you.

2 “I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.

3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

The quote “I will make you into a great nation” is quite interesting. How can GOD Almighty call the Muslims, who came from Ishmael, a “great nation” if they are as the modern Christians of today consider them to be “Satan’s followers”? How can we be a “great nation” in the eyes of GOD Almighty if we are hated by Him? How can the Muslims be cursed and considered satan followers when GOD Almighty in Genesis 12:3 blesses them because they bless Abraham? How can the Muslims be cursed by GOD Almighty when they bow down to Him and only Him in prostration? can the Muslims be cursed by GOD Almighty when they bow down to Him and only Him in prostration?

ONLY MUSLIMS SEND PEACE TO THE ANGELS ON OUR SHOULDERS

To conclude the prayer, the Muslim turns their face first toward his right shoulder and then toward his left shoulder, each time saying the taslim (salutation) to the (right shoulder) angel that takes notes of your good deeds and (left shoulder) angel that takes notes of your evil deeds:

“Peace be on you and the mercy of God. (But verily, over you (are appointed angels in charge of mankind) to watch you, Kiraman (Honorable) Katibin – writing down (your deeds), they know all that you do.) QURAN (82:10-12)

Remember) that the two receivers (recording angels) receive (each human being),one sitting on the right and one on left (to note his or her actions.Not a word does he (or she) utter but there is a watcher by him ready (to record it).) (50:17-18)

So whosoever does good equal to the weight of a speck of dust shall see it.And whosoever does evil equal to the weight of a speck of dust shall see it.)(99:7-8).

[Predator]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Grace Seeker]

“Ein talmeed na’leh ‘al rabbo; shekken kal adam she’MUSHLAM yihyeh k’rabbo.”

“No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher.”

I don't know what your mother tongue is, but based on your past postings I'm fairly certain that you speak more than one language. So, certainly you've come across false cognates in the process. In this case you've reversed translated out of the recorded Greek into Aramaic in order to compare it with English. Can you illustrate that beyond having a similar sound that there is indeed a connection between your suspicions that these were Jesus' words (an interesting assumption by the way, since you've previously proposed that the Bible is corrupted and not to be trusted) "MUSHLAM" and "Muslim"?

But I actually question that you have even translated the text correctly into Arabic. The verse in question, before being translated into English, reads: "ουκ εστιν μαθητης υπερ τον διδασκαλον κατηρτισμενος δε πας εσται ως ο διδασκαλος αυτου" with the key term being "κατηρτισμενος" (a derivative of katartizo, meaning to make fit and can be used in a figurative way meaning to make perfect, hence the English translation that you find.

If you are suggesting that one can reverse translate the word karatizo back into Aramaic to "MUSHLAM" which then has as its direct equivalent the Arabic term "Muslim", it should then hold true for all the other times that the term karatizo is used in the New Testament. Following your methodology would produce the following verses:

Matthew 4:21 -- "Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, MUSLIMING their nets."

Matthew 21:16 -- "From the lips of children and infants you have MUSLIMED praise?"

Mark 1:19 -- "When he had gone a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John in a boat, MUSLIMING their nets."

Romans 9:22 -- "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—MUSLIMED for destruction?"

1 Corinthians 1:10 -- "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be MUSLIMLY united in mind and thought."

2 Corinthians 13:11 -- "Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for MUSLIM, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you."

1 Thessalonians 3:10 -- "Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might MUSLIM that which is lacking in your faith."

Hebrews 10:5 -- "Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: 'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you MUSLIMED for me.' "

Hebrews 11:3 -- "By faith we understand that the universe was MUSLIMED at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

Hebrews 13:20-21 -- "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, (MAKE) MUSLIM you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 5:10 -- And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself MUSLIM you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.


Now, you will notice that I included both passages like Hebrews 13 that really go along with what you are saying as much as I did those like those found in Matthew, Mark, and Romans where the concept doesn't fit at all. So, I am not just rejecting your thesis out of hand, but I need you to do more than just a little word play to show me that it actually applies specifically to the passage in Luke. After all, to be a Muslim is to live a life of submission to God, so it is no surprise that a passage in Luke that is talking about discipleship (i.e. a life of submisive following of one's teacher) should have some similar connotations. But it doesn't follow that Jesus is calling all people to be Muslims with the same meaning that you apply to it today.

When one takes a look at how Jews of Jesus' day actually understood the term "katartizo," it's Hebrew equivalents were many: most commonly "to complete", but also to equip, to restore, to make, to establish. Only once was I able to find something that fit with what it means to be a Muslim and that case katartizo is used of the righteous man's steps to hold fast to Yahweh's paths.

So, there is a possiblity, but we need more data. Until such time as you are able to produce it, I'm going to stay with the work of scholars who have rendered the passage variously:

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect(ed) shall be as his master." -- KJV, ASV, Youngs, Darby, Wycliffe

"A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher." -- NIV, NLT, CEV, NASB

"Students are not better than their teachers. But everyone who is completely trained will be like his teacher." NIRV

"A disciple is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully qualified will be like the teacher." -- NRSV

[Ramadhan]

Jesus pbuh would wage war against the church for putting endless likeness of his ownself (often half-naked) in churches whose people worship and pray to.

[Ramadhan]

It is indeed staggering that christians would rather follow Paul's dreams instead of commandments from Jesus pbuh.
And it is even more staggering that christians call Islam the religion of satan, while in fact it is the muslims who believe in what Jesus pbuh believed, who practise what Jesus pbuh practised.
It's almost like christians only borrow the name and (supposedly) image of Jesus pbuh for a religion that is now strayed very far from Jesus pbuh teachings.

[Grace Seeker]

It is indeed staggering that christians would rather follow Paul's dreams instead of commandments from Jesus pbuh.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

[Ramadhan]

In effect, for current christians, formerly pagan practises that have been "christianised" are more important to follow and believe in than God's laws and commands (which were swept away by Paul's dreams).

[Grace Seeker]

In effect, for current christians, formerly pagan practises that have been "christianised" are more important to follow and believe in than God's laws and commands (which were swept away by Paul's dreams).

Name one bit of Torah that Paul told Jewish Christians were not to be followed?

[Ramadhan]

The systematic destruction of the law of Jesus

Jesus (pbuh) was a very devout Jew. No Jew could ever raise a finger at him and say why do you not observe the Sabbath? Why do you eat pork? Indeed, it is the apostles of Jesus and not Jesus himself who are depicted in the NT as violating the law. The Bible tells us that Jesus (pbuh) departed never having eaten pork, never having violated the Sabbath, divorce was disallowed except in adultery during his lifetime, he followed the law of Moses to the letter. However, Paul's dreams have now legalized for all Christians that which Jesus (according to the Bible) died believing in.

You will not find a single priest or evangelist who tells his Christian followers "to enter heaven, only keep the commandments" (as his "Lord" did). The vast majority of Christians today do not refrain from eating pork nor do they observe the Sabbath as their "Lord" did, and died doing. There are so many differences between Christians today and Jesus and his actions. Christians in general follow the commandments of Paul and others who are given the power to totally cancel out all of the commandments of both Moses and Jesus, and no Christian has any reservations whatsoever. Christianity is literally built around the premise that disciples of disciples, have the power to cancel the commandments of their prophets and even the law practiced by the alleged Son of God himself.

Let us look at this matter a little closer. God commanded the Jews to observe a very disciplined dietary regimen. This is where the Jews get the word "Kosher" from. "Kosher" refers to all food that it is permissible for a Jew to eat. Among those food that God forbade upon all Jews was swine. For this reason we find that Jesus (pbuh) considered pigs such filthy and disgusting animals that not only did he never taste their flesh (incidentally, Muslims also live out their lives never having tasted a single swine), but he literally considered them so lowly that they were only fit as garbage dumps for devils. In Matthew 8:31-32 we read

"So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.."

However, shortly after Jesus' departure, Paul makes lawful all of the creatures of the earth

"If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake."

1 Corinthians 10:27

In one tragic moment, Jesus' lifetime of restraint was casually swept under the carpet.

Many people believe that the vision of Peter found in Acts was the primary factor in the cancellation of this fundamental law of the Jews. However, Christian scholars today are well aware that the writings of Paul are the oldest writings to be found in the Bible. They were written between 50-60 AD while even the four Gospels themselves were written decades later between 70-110 C.E. Secondly, the book of Acts (70-90 AD) although popularly considered to have been written by Paul, is now recognized to have been written by some unknown author(s) other than Paul but who was/were sympathetic to his cause.

According to the Bible, Jesus (pbuh) spent his whole life in strict adherence to the commandments of the law of Moses (pbuh). He departed leaving his followers with the following words:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 5:17-19

Paul's dreams, however, have broken commandments right and left. There is so much of what Jesus (pbuh) did during his lifetime that his followers have now totally neglected, not because Jesus (pbuh) told them to break the commandments, but because Paul would later tell them to break them upon the authority of the visions he was receiving.

So, what we have concluded from the current view of Jesus' master plan is the following:

1) Jesus (pbuh) lived among his people for thirty three years showing them many miracles and teaching them to keep the commandments of Moses, to observe the Sabbath, to refrain from eating pork, to circumcise their children, to fast with the Jews, to worship in the synagogues, and so forth. He did not do this with his words alone but gave them an example in his own actions. Whenever he spoke about his miracles he claimed that he did them through "the finger of God" and that he "can of mine own self do nothing." Whenever he spoke of worship he would say "worship the Father" and not "worship me," "worship the Trinity," or "worship us." He also never said "I am a god." The term "son of God" was used by his people for many millennia before him to describe a devout servant of God and applied in the Bible to many prophets before him and even to common people. Further, God was understood by the people of his time to be the "Father" of all those who love him.

2) For three centuries after the departure of Jesus (pbuh), his apostles and their followers (excluding Paul and his followers) continued the tradition of Jesus (pbuh) as faithful Jews and followers of the law of Moses (pbuh). They practiced their worship in the synagogues of the Jews, they visited the Temple daily, and for all intents and purposes were indistinguishable from all other Jews except for the fact that they affirmed that Jesus (pbuh) was the promised Messiah, which many Jews did not (and still do not) accept. None of these people, not even Paul, had ever heard of a "Trinity." Jesus (pbuh) decided not to reveal his (and God's) "true" nature until three centuries after his departure. He decided that three centuries after his departure it would be time to come to the church and give them divine "inspiration" to "insert" verses in the Bible validating the "Trinity" (such as 1 John 5:7). These "inspired" revelations from Jesus are documented by Christian historians to have been continuing at least up till the fifteenth century CE (see above). Jesus also "inspired" them to utterly destroy all Gospels written before this fourth century which did not teach this "true" nature of Jesus as being God. He further "inspired" the church to utterly destroy all ancient manuscripts written in the original Aramaic or Hebrew language of Jesus (pbuh) and the apostles. He "inspired" them that the Greek and Latin manuscripts would be amply sufficient. And finally, he "inspired" them to launch a massive campaign of "inquiry" to "cleanse" the earth of all remaining Unitarian Christians or convert them.

3) When Jesus (pbuh) departed, his followers continued to faithfully follow his example and observe the laws of Moses. Now Paul comes along and persecutes the followers of Jesus every way he knows how. He admits that:

"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it"

Galatians 1:13 (also see Acts 7:58-60, 8:1-3)

Now Jesus (pbuh) decides to bypass his apostles and go directly to the worst persecutor of his followers on earth in a "vision" and give him knowledge not available to the apostles. Paul now reveals that God holds all of mankind responsible for the sin of Adam (Romans 5:11-19, 1 Corinthians 15:22). God himself, however, claims long before Paul was ever born that

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin"

Deuteronomy 24:16.

and "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son"

Ezekiel 18:20

....etc.

4) Paul further revealed that Jesus came to him in visions and told him to nullify the commandments of God which he had spent thirty three years on earth upholding and teaching his followers to observe, and that these commandments "decayeth," were ready to "vanish away," and were a "curse" upon us. The only requirement in order to receive true salvation, according to Paul, is to believe in the original sin and the atonement. No actual work is necessary. This one belief is the only necessary and sufficient condition. However, Jesus departed not only never having violated the law of Moses but also having told his people that "till heaven and earth pass" whoever would dare to do so would be called "the least in the kingdom of God." Jesus (pbuh) was claimed to have been conditioned and prepared for "the atonement" from the beginning of time, however, whenever he was asked about the path to heaven he not only never mentioned any atonement but only (repeatedly) told his followers to "keep the commandments." Even when pressed for the path to perfection he only told his followers to sell their belongings.

5) Jesus never in his life saw fit to write a single inspired word. However, after he died, he started appearing to countless people in their dreams and visions and commanding them to write in his name and guiding their words. He did not see fit to guide their hands from writing conflicting versions of the same story (chapter two) since these contradictions were intended to strengthen a Christian's faith.

6) Since the only course to salvation is to accept the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh) and the law of Moses is worthless, therefore, God did not see fit to allow those born before Jesus (pbuh) including countless previous prophets to enter heaven, but rather allowed them to remain stained with the sin of Adam and gave them a very strict and disciplined law that was totally useless and could never relieve them of this hereditary stain. These people shall never receive true salvation. Only those after Jesus (pbuh) will receive true salvation (Romans 3:28...etc.).

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/l...y/ch1.2.6.html

[Ramadhan]

and let's not forget the undeniable fact that were Jesus pbuh among us today, what he would do and practise would be very close to what Muslims do and practise.

[Grace Seeker]

naidamar, I hope your last two posts weren't in response to my challenge. If so, it's a big swing and a miss, for none of that shows Paul telling Jewish Christians to do anything, pro or con.


On top of which, the idea that all of the creatures of the earth are made lawful to eat by Paul only after Jesus overlooks what Jesus himself said to the disciples during his own ministry:

Mark 7

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[f]

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

But even though Jesus had done away with this proscription much earlier, Paul never does tell Jews that they should eat anything unclean. Paul's comments are directed to the Gentiles that have come to have faith in Christ, and to them he says that they know that these other gods that people in paga temples pretend to sacrifice meat to before selling it in the marketplace aren't really gods. There is only one God, YAHWEH, and therefore this meat wasn't sacrificed to anything, and they are free to eat it without being concerned. The only exception is if there are new converts present who have recently come out of this pagan culture, then they need to be mindful of how this could still be confusing to them and abstain until they become more mature in their faith.

[Ramadhan]

naidamar, I hope your last two posts weren't in response to my challenge. If so, it's a big swing and a miss, for none of that shows Paul telling Jewish Christians to do anything.

You are one tricky guy, arent you?

Show me where I ever wrote jewish christians?

By keep on entering the phrase "jewish christians", you are indirectly acknowledge that Jesus pbuh teachings only applied to the jews while Paulian teachings applied to the rest of humanity.

If that is so, then be my guest.

It is not me who are claiming to follow jesus pbuh, and yet eschewing almost everything he taught and did in exchange for the dreams of Paul.

[Ramadhan]

the Bible gave hints on how to identify the main Anti-Christ.

1Jo 2:18 ... ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The Apostle John is a good source because his epistles were written slightly after the Pauline epistles have circulated, thus are in a position to question Paul. John said that the anti-Christ "went out from us". Clearly, this means that the anti-Christ/s is/are people associated with Christianity.

Paul called himself as "Apostle". But in the Bible, apostleship is a well-defined office. There are only 12 apostles!!! The Bible keep on referring to the apostles as the 12. The number is symbolic as symbolic as the 12 tribes. In fact, when Judas needed to be replaced, the eleven had to go through a special process to elect Matthias to the "twelve. Rev 21:14 talks about 12 named apostles.

Paul is not qualified, not validly selected. He had evil qualities even as he ostensibly followed Christ. He violated the Commandments. He directly opposed Christ in many, many situations. He is the Anti-Christ.

And his followers were called Christians! (Acts 11:26)

[Grace Seeker]

the Bible gave hints on how to identify the main Anti-Christ.

1Jo 2:18 ... ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The Apostle John is a good source because his epistles were written slightly after the Pauline epistles have circulated, thus are in a position to question Paul. John said that the anti-Christ "went out from us". Clearly, this means that the anti-Christ/s is/are people associated with Christianity.

Paul called himself as "Apostle". But in the Bible, apostleship is a well-defined office. There are only 12 apostles!!! The Bible keep on referring to the apostles as the 12. The number is symbolic as symbolic as the 12 tribes. In fact, when Judas needed to be replaced, the eleven had to go through a special process to elect Matthias to the "twelve. Rev 21:14 talks about 12 named apostles.

Paul is not qualified, not validly selected. He had evil qualities even as he ostensibly followed Christ. He violated the Commandments. He directly opposed Christ in many, many situations. He is the Anti-Christ.

And his followers were called Christians! (Acts 11:26)

The biggest problem with the above analysis is simply that it is never asserted in scripture nor would it be in keeping with what is in fact revealed in scripture to say, "There are only 12 apostles!!!"


The English word "Apostle" comes from the Greek word apostello, which is used 131 times in the New Testament and it means to send. The apostles apostolos are people who are sent out with a message, specifically with a message about the resurrection. Now, Paul is NOT an apostle in the same way that say Peter and John are, and even he recognizes this. But he is one who is sent out by Christ to bear witness to the resurrection and God's new movement of the Gospel that is to be shared, by Christ's own command, with all the world. So, Paul becomes an apostle (a sent out one) to the Gentiles. Nothing at all improper about that usage or for Paul to make such a claim for himself.

Acts 13 tells how the Holy Spirit himself specifically told the other apostles that he was also calling Paul and Barnabas to a special work and ministry. And in Acts 14:14 they are both called apostles. Others who are noted as apostles, in addition to "THE TWELVE", include Andronicus and Junias (Romans 16:7).

So, while we generally think of the apostles as those who were initially THE 12 Disciples of Jesus, the truth is that just as Jesus had more than 12 disciples so too the term "apostle" should not be so narrowly defined as to automatically exclude all who were not a part of that group.

[Predator]

Mark 7

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[f]

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

But even though Jesus had done away with this proscription much earlier, Paul never does tell Jews that they should eat anything unclean. Paul's comments are directed to the Gentiles that have come to have faith in Christ, and to them he says that they know that these other gods that people in paga temples pretend to sacrifice meat to before selling it in the marketplace aren't really gods. There is only one God, YAHWEH, and therefore this meat wasn't sacrificed to anything, and they are free to eat it without being concerned. The only exception is if there are new converts present who have recently come out of this pagan culture, then they need to be mindful of how this could still be confusing to them and abstain until they become more mature in their faith.

Moot point . The Gospels show Jesus breaking the laws of the Torah. According to Matthew and Mark, Jesus said that all foods are clean, but the Jewish Law clearly prohibits the consumption of pork!

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. (Matthew 15:11)

"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' (Mark 7:18-20)

Notice how the deceptive editors placed a note (in brackets) claiming that Jesus made all foods clean. This is clearly false, and Jesus never uttered these words. The Gospels were written under the influence of Paul, who rejected the Jewish Law (Hebrews 5:13, Galatians 3:13)


The Gentile writers fabricated these words to make Jesus say that all foods are clean, thus supporting the Pauline doctrine. According to Matthew 5:17-20, 23:23, Jesus came to preach the Jewish Law, and what does the Jewish Law say about eating pork?

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.
Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you. (Leviticus 11:7-8)
And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
These ye shall eat of all that [are] in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: (Deu 14:8-9)

The Bible prohibits the eating of pork. Jesus never made permissible the consumption of ‘all’ foods, it was a Pauline innovation by the Gospel writers..
Jesus only ate kosher meat and was forbidden to eat pig’s flesh.

Jesus said that he had come to uphold the law and not to destroy it one jot or one tithe. Jesus was educated in the synagogue in Jerusalem from the age of twelve. He preached in the synagogue. He used to keep the synagogue clean. No Christian today can be found performing these actions. How many Christians have been even been circumcised in the manner that Jesus was? The services now held in today’s churches were developed long after Jesus had disappeared. Many of them come directly from the pagan Graeco-Roman mythological rites.

The prayers they use are not the prayers which Jesus made. The hymns they sing are not the praises which Jesus sung. Due to the innovations of Paul and his followers, there is no revealed teaching left as to what to eat and what not to eat. Anyone given a “Christian education” today eats what he feels like. Yet Jesus and his true followers only ate kosher meat and were forbidden to eat pig’s flesh”.

The Gospels imply that eating pork is forbidden, since Jesus murdered over 2,000 pigs by drowning them in the sea, and he will destroy the pigs on his Second Coming.
And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. (Matthew 8:32, Mark 5:13)

[Predator]

None of Jesus miracles were unique

The Bible itself refute the uniqueness of Jesus' Miracles:

Bringing the dead back to life:

"Then he cried out to the LORD , "O LORD my God, have you brought tragedy also upon this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?" Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried to the LORD , "O LORD my God, let this boy's life return to him!" The LORD heard Elijah's cry, and the boy's life returned to him, and he lived. Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother and said, "Look, your son is alive!" (From the NIV Bible, 1 Kings 17:20-23)"

"But the child's mother said, "As surely as the LORD lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So he got up and followed her. Gehazi went on ahead and laid the staff on the boy's face, but there was no sound or response. So Gehazi went back to meet Elisha and told him, "The boy has not awakened." When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch. He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the LORD. Then he got on the bed and lay upon the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out upon him, the boy's body grew warm. Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out upon him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes. Elisha summoned Gehazi and said, "Call the Shunammite." And he did. When she came, he said, "Take your son." (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 4:30-36)"


Jesus' dead body never caused for any dead to come back to life, but Elisha's did:

"Elisha died and was buried. Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man's body into Elisha's tomb. When the body touched Elisha's bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet. Hazael king of Aram oppressed Israel throughout the reign of Jehoahaz. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 13:20-22)"


Creating life:

Jesus only restored life, but never actually created one from scratch. Moses, however, did create a live snake from a wooden stick:

"Then the LORD said to him, "What is that in your hand?" "A staff," he replied. The LORD said, "Throw it on the ground." Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. Then the LORD said to him, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail." So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 4:2-4)"


Curing the blind:

"When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. "Oh, my lord, what shall we do?" the servant asked. "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them." And Elisha prayed, "O LORD , open his eyes so he may see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the LORD , "Strike these people with blindness." So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked. Elisha told them, "This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for." And he led them to Samaria. After they entered the city, Elisha said, "LORD , open the eyes of these men so they can see." Then the LORD opened their eyes and they looked, and there they were, inside Samaria. When the king of Israel saw them, he asked Elisha, "Shall I kill them, my father? Shall I kill them?" "Do not kill them," he answered. "Would you kill men you have captured with your own sword or bow? Set food and water before them so that they may eat and drink and then go back to their master." So he prepared a great feast for them, and after they had finished eating and drinking, he sent them away, and they returned to their master. So the bands from Aram stopped raiding Israel's territory. Some time later, Ben-Hadad king of Aram mobilized his entire army and marched up and laid siege to Samaria. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 6:15-24)"


Healing leprosy:

"Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, "Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed." But Naaman went away angry and said, "I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn't I wash in them and be cleansed?" So he turned and went off in a rage. Naaman's servants went to him and said, "My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, 'Wash and be cleansed'!" So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 5:10-14)"


Feeding hundreds with few loafs of bread:

"A man came from Baal Shalishah, bringing the man of God twenty loaves of barley bread baked from the first ripe grain, along with some heads of new grain. "Give it to the people to eat," Elisha said. "How can I set this before a hundred men?" his servant asked. But Elisha answered, "Give it to the people to eat. For this is what the LORD says: 'They will eat and have some left over.' " Then he set it before them, and they ate and had some left over, according to the word of the LORD. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 4:42-44)"

So as we clearly see from the above verses, Jesus' Miracles were not unique. Therefore, they can never be used to prove that he is the Creator of the Universe

[Ramadhan]

The biggest problem with the above analysis is simply that it is never asserted in scripture nor would it be in keeping with what is in fact revealed in scripture to say, "There are only 12 apostles!!!"

I really could swear you are not at all interested what are asserted/written/revealed in your own scripture, based on your multitude posts that ignored the bible verses about the oneness of God and Jesus' commands to worship God only, while believing in what is not revealed/written in the bible such as the worshipping of jesus pbuh.

quick summary about Paul:

1. Jesus (pbuh), during his lifetime on earth, commands mankind to strictly and uncompromisingly observe the religion of Moses till the end of time (Matthew 5:18). He tells them that observing the religion of Moses and selling their belongings shall make them "prefect." (Luke 18:18-22).
2. After the departure of Jesus, Paul, according to his own admission "beyond measure" severely persecuted countless Christians, strove to "slaughter" them, and also "wasted" the church (Galatians 1:13-15, Acts 8:1-3, Acts 9:1-2, Acts 9:41, Acts 6:5, Acts 22:4,.. etc.). Paul also looked on with satisfaction as the apostle Stephen was stoned to death (Acts 22:20).
3. Paul receives "visions" and is saved (Acts 22:9, Acts 9:7...etc.)
4. Paul is not sure exactly what he saw in his visions. His visions also contained "unspeakable words that it is unlawful to utter." (2 Corinthians 12:1-5)
5. Paul tells us that the person in his visions was Jesus (pbuh). He declares that he received his teachings of "Christianity" from these visions and from no one else, not even the apostles (Galatians 1:12). In other words, he has no need of learning from the apostles. His visions are higher in authority than anything they might have to say. He then goes on to show everyone how the apostles of Jesus are constantly in need of his guidance to recognize the truth (e.g. Galatians 2:11-13)
6. Paul claims that all things are made lawful to him and he shall not follow anyone (1 Corinthians 6:12). He also claims that he shall do whatever it takes to get people to follow him, no matter what that might entail (1 Corinthians 9:20-22).
7. The apostles differ with Paul regarding the "truth" of the circumcision ordained by God and other matters.(1 Corinthians 7:19, Galatians 2:7...etc.).
8. The apostles, according to Paul, did not walk "uprightly" according to the "truth of the Gospel" and were lazy, misguided, hypocrites (1 Corinthians 15:10, Galatians 2:14, Galatians 2:13).
9. Most of the books of the New Testament are written by Paul himself. In them, Paul himself gives an unblushing pronouncement of how he was a vastly superior apostle of Jesus (pbuh) than the apostles who accompanied Jesus (pbuh) during his ministry and they all needed his guidance to see the "truth" of Jesus' message and how Jesus (pbuh) and the apostles eagerly appointed him the twelfth apostle.

[Ramadhan]

Back on topic, Jesus pbuh would greet people with:
"shalom alaikum"

a "peace be with you" greeting that is offered by every muslims many times a day.

[Predator]

And this is where any parallel between the Quranic Isa and the Biblical Jesus whom Christians worship just comes to an end. Our Jesus is not a murderer.

One of the most common claim made by Christians is that Jesus never killed anybody. They often always bring this up against Muslims as if to show that the prophet Muhammad was a bad person because he killed people. Before refuting the myth that Jesus never killed anyone, we must also expose the Christian double standard and the Christian weak line of argument. If Jesus is great, and the prophet Muhammad is bad because he killed people, then so is Moses, and so is David.



The OT shows us a lot of battles that both Moses and David took part in, and both these men killed a lot of people, including women and children. Yet when we show this to Christians, they simply ignore it, or try to justify it. Yet what is most inconsistent about this is that if the prophet Muhammad kills people in battle or war, the Christian goes mad and starts screaming out 'false prophet! Such inconsistency from the Christian only exposes the Christian's deceptive character, and shows that these Christians dont have no holy spirit in them.



Now let us go back to the main topic, which is refuting the Christian propaganda lie that Jesus never killed anyone. As you all know, Christians always make the claim that Jesus is God, they claim that Jesus is the same God of the OT. So basically what we have is this:



1- Jesus is God



2- Jesus is the God of the Old Testement



3- Christians believe that the OT is the inspired word of God



4- The OT is authentic to the Christian



5- The God in the OT is Jesus



So since Jesus is the God of the OT, we shall now look at the God of the OT ordering the KILLINGS of many people:



Zephaniah 2:12-15



Zephaniah 2:12-15

"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist



Ezekiel 9:5-7

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."



Matthew henry's Biblical commentary writes this on Ezekial 9:5-7 :



. A command given to the destroyers to do execution according to their commission. They stood by the brazen altar, waiting for orders; and orders are here given them to cut off and destroy all that were either guilty of, or accessory to, the abominations of Jerusalem, and that did not sigh and cry for them. Note, When God has gathered his wheat into his garner nothing remains but to burn up the chaff, Matthew 3:12 http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+3:12&t=kjv.



1. They are ordered to destroy all, (1.) Without exception. They must go through the city, and smite; they must slay utterly, slay to destruction, give them their death's wound. They must make no distinction of age or sex, but cut off old and young; neither the beauty of the virgins, nor the innocency of the babes, shall secure them. This was fulfilled in the death of multitudes by famine and pestilence, especially by the sword of the Chaldeans, as far as the military execution went. Sometimes even such bloody work as this has been God's work. But what an evil thing is sin, then, which provokes the God of infinite mercy to such severity! (2.) Without compassion: "Let not your eye spare, neither have you pity (Ezekiel 9:5 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+9:5&t=kjv> ); you must not save any whom God has doomed to destruction, as Saul did Agag and the Amalekites, for that is doing the work of God deceitfully, Jeremiah 48:10 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jer+48:10&t=kjv> . None need to be more merciful than God is; and he had said (Ezekiel 8:18 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+8:18&t=kjv> ), My eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity." Note, Those that live in sin, and hate to be reformed, will perish in sin, and deserve not to be pitied; for they might easily have prevented the ruin, and would not.



2. They are warned not to do the least hurt to those that were marked for salvation: "Come not near any man upon whom is the mark; do not so much as threaten or frighten any of them; it is promised them that there shall no evil come nigh them, and therefore you must keep at a distance from them." The king of Babylon gave particular orders that Jeremiah should be protected. Baruch and Ebed-melech were secured, and, it is likely, others of Jeremiah's friends, for his sake. God had promised that it should go well with his remnant and they should be well treated (Jeremiah 15:11 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jer+15:11&t=kjv> ); and we have reason to think that none of the mourning praying remnant fell by the sword of the Chaldeans, but that God found out some way or other to secure them all, as, in the last destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, the Christians were all secured in a city called Pella, and none of them perished with the unbelieving Jews. Note, None of those shall be lost whom God has marked for life and salvation; for the foundation of God stands sure.



3. They are directed to begin at the sanctuary (Ezekiel 9:6 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+9:6&t=kjv> ), that sanctuary which, in the chapter before, he had seen the horrid profanation of; they must begin there because there the wickedness began which provoked God to send these judgments. The debaucheries of the priests were the poisoning of the springs, to which all the corruption of the streams was owing. The wickedness of the sanctuary was of all wickedness the most offensive to God, and therefore there the slaughter must begin: "Begin there, to try if the people will take warning by the judgments of God upon their priests, and will repent and reform; begin there, that all the world may see and know that the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God, and hates sin most in those that are nearest to him." Note, When judgments are abroad they commonly begin at the house of God, 1 Peter 4:17 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1pe+4:17&t=kjv> . You only have I known, and therefore I will punish you, Amos 3:2 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=am+3:2&t=kjv> . God's temple is a sanctuary, a refuge and protection for penitent sinners, but not for any that go on still in their trespasses; neither the sacredness of the place nor the eminency of their place in it will be their security. It should seem the destroyers made some difficulty of putting men to death in the temple, but God bids them not to hesitate at that, but (Ezekiel 9:7 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+9:7&t=kjv> ), Defile the house, and fill the courts with slain. They will not be taken from the altar (as was appointed by the law, Exodus 21:14 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+21:14&t=kjv> ), but think to secure themselves by keeping hold of the horns of it, like Joab, and therefore, like him, let them die there, 1 Kings 2:30,31 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ki+2:30,31&t=kjv> . There the blood of one of God's prophets had been shed (Matthew 23:35 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+23:35&t=kjv> ) and therefore let their blood be shed. Note, If the servants of God's house defile it with their idolatries, God will justly suffer the enemies of it to defile it with their violences, Psalms 79:1 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ps+79:1&t=kjv> . But these acts of necessary justice were really, whatever they were ceremonially, rather a purification than a pollution of the sanctuary; it was putting away evil from among them. 4. They are appointed to go forth into the city, Ezekiel 9:6,7 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+9:6,7&t=kjv> . Note, Wherever sin has gone before judgement will follow after; and, though judgement begins at the house of God, yet it shall not end there. The holy city shall be no more a protection to the wicked people then the holy house was to the wicked priests.

II. Here is execution done accordingly. They observed their orders, and, 1. They began at the elders, the ancient men that were before the house, and slew them first, either those seventy ancients who worshipped idols in their chambers (Ezekiel 8:12 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+8:12&t=kjv> ) or those twenty-five who worshipped the sun between the porch and the altar, who might more properly be said to be before the house. Note, Ringleaders in sin may expect to be first met with by the judgments of God; and the sins of those who are in the most eminent and public stations call for the most exemplary punishments. 2. They proceeded to the common people: They went forth and slew in the city; for, when the decree has gone forth, there shall be no delay; if God begin, he will make an end.



These are just 2 examples the God in the OT ordering the death and destruction of the people. In fact the verses are very explicit; the God of the OT is making it clear that it is HIS SWORD which shall slay the people.

So since Jesus is God, and is the God of the OT, this means that it was Jesus who ordered these killings and it was Jesus who killed all these people! Hence the Christian myth is DEBUNKED. Jesus did kill, and Jesus ordered the killings of women and children, the fact that Christians claim that Jesus never killed anyone is a plane intentional lie by the Christians. We must ask why would the Christians make such a blatant lie? And it also leaves us with another question, which is what else do the Christians lie about? What other myths and propaganda do they create on their made up faith? We can only guess, but no doubt each lie will get caught and exposed.

[Supreme]

One of the most common claim made by Christians is that Jesus never killed anybody. They often always bring this up against Muslims as if to show that the prophet Muhammad was a bad person because he killed people. Before refuting the myth that Jesus never killed anyone, we must also expose the Christian double standard and the Christian weak line of argument. If Jesus is great, and the prophet Muhammad is bad because he killed people, then so is Moses, and so is David.

I mentioned it not to try and refute any claims Muhammed, David and the like weren't great. Killing people doesn't make one great, and not killing them does not make one great. I mentioned it because Jesus is not a murderer, because He never murdered anyone.

The OT shows us a lot of battles that both Moses and David took part in, and both these men killed a lot of people, including women and children. Yet when we show this to Christians, they simply ignore it, or try to justify it. Yet what is most inconsistent about this is that if the prophet Muhammad kills people in battle or war, the Christian goes mad and starts screaming out 'false prophet! Such inconsistency from the Christian only exposes the Christian's deceptive character, and shows that these Christians dont have no holy spirit in them.

Again, I think I may've hit a nerve unintentionally. My post did not say 'Jesus never killed, therefore our main figure is better than your main figure who did kill.' I understand the tirades and murders recorded in the OT.

Now let us go back to the main topic, which is refuting the Christian propaganda lie that Jesus never killed anyone. As you all know, Christians always make the claim that Jesus is God, they claim that Jesus is the same God of the OT. So basically what we have is this:



1- Jesus is God



2- Jesus is the God of the Old Testement



3- Christians believe that the OT is the inspired word of God



4- The OT is authentic to the Christian



5- The God in the OT is Jesus

We don't deny whatsoever God has killed/kills people. What we do deny is that Jesus ever killed anyone during His time on Earth, as this would be completely contrary to His Earthly message.

[Predator]

We don't deny whatsoever God has killed/kills people.

So by God you mean you refer to Jesus :

Jesus = The God who created the universe

So that means God is infact killing people remotely ,so Jesus does kill people

What we do deny is that Jesus ever killed anyone during His time on Earth, as this would be completely contrary to His Earthly message

Yeah but Jesus isnt finished yet ,he will be coming back to earth towards the end of time

Killing people doesn't make one great, and not killing them does not make one great.

So killing doesnt make one great , so i suppose killing the Beast devil anti-christ at the end of time would be cruel thing , right ,since Jesus forgives , he should be forgiving and cleanse the devil instead

I mentioned it because Jesus is not a murderer, because He never murdered anyone,

You make that sound so wonderful , Right , Jesus is not a murder yet but would be a HERO for killing the beast anti-christ .

Killing people doesn't make one great, and not killing them does not make one great

Couldnt the same be said about Muhammad , David and Moses , they were heroes of God and killing their enemies made them great?

[Grace Seeker]

I really could swear you are not at all interested what are asserted/written/revealed in your own scripture, based on your multitude posts that ignored the bible verses about the oneness of God and Jesus' commands to worship God only, while believing in what is not revealed/written in the bible such as the worshipping of jesus pbuh.

Look who is talking. Again, you make a number of assertions (9 enumerated), but none of them are related to what you quoted from my previous post.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The biggest problem with the [naidamar's] analysis is simply that it is never asserted in scripture nor would it be in keeping with what is in fact revealed in scripture to say, "There are only 12 apostles!!!"

BTW, it is revealed/written in the Bible that Jesus is worshipped, so quit saying that it isn't.

Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Matthew 28:17
When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Luke 24:52
Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:38
Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.


So, while we may not be able to definitively answer the question as to what group he would associate with, what places he would or would not enter. As long as there were people today who related to him as they did in the past, the one thing that we can definitively say about Jesus is that people would worship him, and he would accept it now just as he did then.

[Supreme]

So by God you mean you refer to Jesus :

Jesus = The God who created the universe

So that means God is infact killing people remotely ,so Jesus does kill people

By God, I mean the Son. Jesus is just God the Son in human form. The Son has killed people, but Jesus, seeing as He was merely the Son incarnate, does not kill people.

Yeah but Jesus isnt finished yet ,he will be coming back to earth towards the end of time

I don't think there's a single Christian who doubts this.

So killing doesnt make one great , so i suppose killing the Beast devil anti-christ at the end of time would be cruel thing , right ,since Jesus forgives , he should be forgiving and cleanse the devil instead

Seeing as the Devil is not human, forgiveness cannot be applied to it.

ou make that sound so wonderful , Right , Jesus is not a murder yet but would be a HERO for killing the beast anti-christ .

The 'beast anti-christ' is not human, therefore murdering it is not the same as murdering a human.

Couldnt the same be said about Muhammad , David and Moses , they were heroes of God and killing their enemies made them great?

The same could be said, yes, but it's entirely subjective.

[glo]

Back on topic, Jesus pbuh would greet people with:
"shalom alaikum"

a "peace be with you" greeting that is offered by every muslims many times a day.

During our church service we too say to each other 'peace be with you' - after all, what greater thing than to offer your fellow man than the peace of God? :statisfie

But you make a good point - we should wish each other the peace of God at all times and with every greeting, not just when we are in church.
Food for thought ... :)

[Predator]

BTW, it is revealed/written in the Bible that Jesus is worshipped, so quit saying that it isn't.

Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Matthew 28:17
When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Luke 24:52
Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:38
Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.


So, while we may not be able to definitively answer the question as to what group he would associate with, what places he would or would not enter. As long as there were people today who related to him as they did in the past, the one thing that we can definitively say about Jesus is that people would worship him, and he would accept it now just as he did then.

Jesus has clearly defined who is person that needs to be worshipped

" 'All this I will give you,' he (Satan) said (to Jesus), 'if you will bow down and worship me.' Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 4:9-10)"

In this verse, we clearly see that Jesus refused to obey to Satan's commands by taking Satan as his GOD or Superior. Jesus told him that non shall be worshiped except GOD Almighty. If Jesus was GOD Almighty Himself as Trinitarians falsely claim, then his answer to Satan would be completely different!


"They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 15:9)"

"They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 7:7)"

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. (From the NIV Bible, John 4:23)"

Again, here we clearly see how Jesus defined the true worship. It is the Worship of GOD Almighty alone! There is no "trinity worshiping". This is all bogus man made lies and "rules (Mark 7:7)" that misinterpret what Jesus really meant.

Thus you are supposed to worship the FATHER in heaven (God almighty) and not Jesus



Did David worship Saul when he prostrated his face down to the ground before him?
Let's look at the following verses:

1 Samuel 24
7 With these words David rebuked his men and did not allow them to attack Saul. And Saul left the cave and went his way.
8 Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, "My lord the king!" When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
9 He said to Saul, "Why do you listen when men say, 'David is bent on harming you'?


Notice how David called Saul "my lord". While this is elaborated on much greatly in this article, but I just find it quite ridiculous that trinitarian Christians use "Jesus is lord" as a desperate proof for their lies about Jesus being our so-called "Creator".

Also, when David prostrated his face down to the ground to Saul, was he worshiping Saul as if Saul was GOD Almighty?


More examples:

2 Samuel 14:4
4 When the woman from Tekoa went to the king, she fell with her face to the ground to pay him honor, and she said, "Help me, O king!"

2 Samuel 14:22
22 Joab fell with his face to the ground to pay him honor, and he blessed the king. Joab said, "Today your servant knows that he has found favor in your eyes, my lord the king, because the king has granted his servant's request."


You Trinitarians are confused about people loving and adoring Jesus peace be upon him so much that they would greet him by either bending down their heads while standing (which could be considered an act of worship), or by bowing down on their hands and knees and greeting him with an act of worship. They think this would without a doubt the Creator of the Universe.

Notice in Luke 24:53 it says "praising God" and not "praising Jesus". After they finished greeting Jesus, who was given the power to heal the sick, cure the blind, and bring the dead into life, they returned to Jerusalem and Worshiped GOD Almighty.

Please be advised that some people in the Old Testament were too given the power to heal the sick, cure the blind, and bring the dead into life by GOD Almighty. So Jesus' miracles don't prove that he is GOD Almighty at all! Read 1 Kings 17:22, 2 Kings 4:34, 2 Kings 6:17,20, 2 Kings 5:14, and 2 Kings 4:44 for more details.

As I said, you have to take the entire argument of Jesus about the word "worship" to fully understand that GOD Almighty is an Absolute Undivided One GOD.


People dared to praise Jesus as GOD. Jesus refuted them:

“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)”


If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty?

I have yet to see a good answer to this one by any polytheist trinitarian.


"Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

"My Father (GOD) is greater than I. (From the NIV Bible, John 14:28)"

"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. (From the NIV Bible, John 5:31)"

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. (From the NIV Bible, John 5:30)"

"...You have never heard his (GOD's) voice nor seen his form...(From the NIV Bible, John 5:37)"

"Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 23:46)"

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 24:36)" Not even Jesus knows when the Hour will come! How in the World can he be the Creator of the Universe?!

"1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears; (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 11:1-3)"

If Jesus had the spirit of fearing GOD in him, then how in the world is he the Creator of the Universe?!



In Islam, Allah Almighty ordered the Angels to bow down to Adam:

It is important to know that the word "worship" in the Middle East doesn't always apply to GOD Almighty alone. Even in Islam, Allah Almighty ordered the Angels to bow down to Adam peace be upon him

"And behold, We said to the angels: 'Bow down to Adam:' and they bowed down: Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. (The Noble Quran, 2:34)"

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said:

Narrated 'Umar: "I heard the Prophet saying, 'Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophets, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 654)"

[Ramadhan]

Did people really worshipped Jesus pbuh and he did not object?

With regard to John 9:38 "Lord. I believe, and he worshipped him." and Matthew 28:17 "they saw him, they worshipped him." Please note that the word translated as "worshipped" in both verses is the GREEK word "prosekunesan" which is derived from the root word proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o}. The literal meaning of this word is (and I quote): "to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand." This word also has the general meaning of "bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate." Please check the Strong's concordance for the true meaning of this word. Is the act of kissing someone's hand the same as worshipping him? Once again, selective translation.

However, the above two verses of John and Matthew are not the only two verses of the Bible were such selective translation techniques are employed in order to impress upon the reader a chosen doctrine. For example, in the "Gospel of Matthew" the English "translation" records that Jesus was "worshipped" by Magi that came from the East (2:11); by a ruler (9:18) , by boat people (14:33), by a Canaanite woman (15:24), by the mother of the Zebedees (20:20); and by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:9) to name but a very few.

Since worshipping any one other than God is a fundamental sin, therefore, the reader understands that Jesus was God since he condoned them "worshipping" him. Since Jesus (pbuh) never once in the whole Bible ever told anyone "worship me!" (as God Himself does in many places), therefore, once again, we are told that Jesus was "hinting" that he wants us to worship him. However, as we can plainly see, what the author was in fact saying in these verses is that these people "fell at Jesus' feet," or that these people "knelt before Jesus."

How then shall we interpret their "kneeling down before Jesus."? Should we understand that they were "praying" to him? Far from it! Let us ask the Bible to explain:

"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid."

1 Samuel 25:23-24

When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?. Similarly,

"Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."

2 Kings 4:37

"And his (Joseph's) brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants."

Genesis 50:18

"And there went over a ferry boat to carry over the king's household, and to do what he thought good. And Shimei the son of Gera fell down before the king, as he was come over Jordan;"

2 Samuel 19:18

"Worship" is one of those English words which carry a double meaning. The one most popular among most people is "to pray to." This is the meaning that immediately springs into everyone's mind when they read this word. However, "worship" has another meaning. It also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" (see for example Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition). The second meaning is used more frequently in England than, for example, in the United States. However, the first remains the most popular and well known meaning in any English speaking country. Even at that, in Britain it is not at all uncommon even in this age to find the British addressing their nobles as "your worship."

What the translators have done when translating these verse is that they have "technically" translated the word correctly, however, the true meaning of this word is now completely lost.

Finally, in order to seal the proof of this matter and to dispel any lingering doubt that may remain in the reader's mind, the reader is encouraged to obtain a copy of the "New English Bible." In it they will find the translations of the quoted verses to read:

1. "bowed to the ground" (2:11);
2. "fell at his feet" (14:33);
3. "falling prostrate before him" (28:9), and
4. "fell prostrate before him" (28:17)...etc.

Please also read the translation of these verses in "The Complete Bible, an American Translation" By Edward Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith where they are once again honestly translated as:

1. "they threw themselves down and did homage to him" (2:11),
2. "fell down before him"(14:33),
3. "and they went up to him and clasped his feed and bowed to the ground before him" (28:9), and
4. "bowed down before him"(28:17), etc.

Once again, we remember that such sublime manipulation of the translation in order to establish with the reader a chosen doctrine was exposed by God in the noble Qur'an. The Qur'an says:

"There is among them a party who distort the Scripture with their tongues that you might think that it is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture; and they say, 'It is from God,' but it is not from God; and they speak a lie against God, and [well] they know it!"

The Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):78

[Ramadhan]

During our church service we too say to each other 'peace be with you' - after all, what greater thing than to offer your fellow man than the peace of God? :statisfie

But you make a good point - we should wish each other the peace of God at all times and with every greeting, not just when we are in church.
Food for thought ... :)

Good for you and your church to little by little try to emulate what Jesus pbuh did and would do.

Maybe you and your fellow christians will also one day believe in what Jesus pbuh believed, and practise what Jesus pbuh practised.

[Supreme]

During our church service we too say to each other 'peace be with you' - after all, what greater thing than to offer your fellow man than the peace of God? :statisfie

But you make a good point - we should wish each other the peace of God at all times and with every greeting, not just when we are in church.
Food for thought ... :)

I suppose we do similar things. We turn round and greet one another. The other day, the lovely tall black gentleman turned round to me, gave me a high five and told me that we were both one. It made me feel fantastic.

[Predator]

lol since when did killing an animal make you a murderer?

‘By him in whose hand my soul is, surely the son of Mary will come down among you as a just ruler. He will break the cross, kill the pigs and abolish the Jizyah. Wealth will be in such abundance that no one will care about it, and a single prostration in prayer will be better than the world and all that is in it.’ (An-Nisaa 4:159) (Bukhari; Muslim).

The hadith clearly demonstrates that: First, Pigs will one day become a big menace for the mankind; Second, Killing pigs is an open option. Third, it will be Jesus after his Second Advent who will ultimately order the killing of all pigs. The question can be asked here: When birds can be culled in a big way to stop Bird flu, why can pigs not be killed to stop Swine flu? Killing pigs will not be easily acceptable to the market. But this option must not be lost sight of, and the action must be taken before it is too late.


Killing Pigs and banning Pig Farming must be an open option

By

Dr. Javed Jamil

In a disturbing new projection, Centre for Disease Control and Prevention, a health agency of the US says up to 40 percent of Americans could get swine flu this year and next and several hundred thousand could die without a successful vaccine campaign and other measures. The virus has already killed about 300 Americans and experts believe it has sickened more than 1 million, comparable to a seasonal flu with the weird ability to keep spreading in the summer. The world health organization and other agencies fear that the current pandemic can affect up to 2 billion people, that is one third of the world population, and the number of deaths could very well cross the ten million mark.

The world health organization and other agencies fear that the current pandemic can affect up to 2 billion people, that is one third of the world population, and the number of deaths could very well cross the ten million mark. ….. The 1918 flu pandemic in humans was associated with H1N1 and influenza appearing in pigs. It is estimated that anywhere from 50 to 100 million people were killed worldwide. This outbreak confirmed that pigs can serve as a crucible where novel influenza viruses emerge as a result of the re-assortment of genes from different strains.

Swine flu is a respiratory disease of pigs first described in the 1930s and while historic transmissions to people have been "sporadic", the human infection rate is rising. The cases commonly involved pig industry workers or people who came into close contact with infected pigs at country fairs. Of the several strains of the swine flu known to be circulating in the world’s pig populations, the one labelled H1N1 is the most common and it is a new variant of this strain which is thought responsible for the latest spate of cases. The 1918 flu pandemic in humans was associated with H1N1 and influenza appearing in pigs. It is estimated that anywhere from 50 to 100 million people were killed worldwide. This outbreak confirmed that pigs can serve as a crucible where novel influenza viruses emerge as a result of the re-assortment of genes from different strains.

It is sickening to see that even health policies are not outside the domain of the global forces of economics, which weigh all the policies on the balance provided by the interests of the market. Harsh measures to stop the death of humans are never applied, if these damage the “economy” – the “economy” in effect means the interests of the market. In the fast growing pandemic of Swine flu also, attempts are being made not to cause any severe damage to the tourism industry and the pig farming. People are being told that Pork eating does not cause Swine Flu. While it is true that pork does not directly cause the Flu, it is also true that the pig farming, which is directly associated with the supply of pork is directly responsible for its spread. That in itself is an enough reason to prohibit Pork eating. A history of the death of more than 50 million people less than a century back, and the fear of the disease affecting more than a third of the world population must be substantial enough grounds not only for banning Pork but also ban Pig farming. If the current and future pandemics are to be prevented,pigs should be killed

[Predator]

SWINE : The flesh of the swine forbidden -
(a) "Of their flesh (of the swine) shall ye NOT EAT, and their
carcase ye shall NOT TOUCH; they are unclean to you."
LEVITICUS 11:8

Jesus (pbuh) destroyed 2000 pigs to heal one man -
(b) "And forthwith Jesus gave them leave (permission). And the
unclean spirits (the devils) went out, and entered into the
swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the
sea, (they were about two thousand); and were choked in the
sea." MARK 5:13


So thus JESUS the MAN we Muslims call as our Prophet and the MAN you Christians call as your "Lord" killed the pigs to heal people , so thus why cant we kill pigs to prevent swine flu , the same way we kill birds as a swine flu prevention measure

PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE

[Supreme]

1) Why did God create pigs if only to kill them at the end of time?
2) Jesus sent the evil spirits into the pigs, and the evil spirits killed the pigs.

[Ramadhan]

1) Why did God create pigs if only to kill them at the end of time?

Maybe you can ask god directly?
I always heard, in this forums too, that christians claim they are always in communication/contact with god.

2) Jesus sent the evil spirits into the pigs, and the evil spirits killed the pigs.

And so I assume god told you this.

[Nathaniel]

And so I assume god told you this.

Simply read the "pig passage" in full:

When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
Matthew 8:28-34 (TNIV)

The passage seems to have more of an emphasis on Jesus being "anti-demon" than "anti-pig"...

[جوري]

isn't it interesting though, that Jesus your god decided to put the unclean spirits of devils in pigs and have them off of a cliff?
either way it doesn't matter to me what you guys eat, it is just a conundrum from where we are, that your god is a poor man who never ate pigs, in fact drove them off a cliff to save a human life and yet you feast on the filthy creatures day and night..


why did God create pigs? why did he create hippopotamus or giraffes? just because an animal exists in creation doesn't denote that it should also exist on your plate, especially if specifically forbidden -- don't you in the least find it strange that the alleged god of the OT is the same God of the NT, yet he changes his mind about oh just about everything?

[Ramadhan]

Simply read the "pig passage" in full:

When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
Matthew 8:28-34 (TNIV)

The passage seems to have more of an emphasis on Jesus being "anti-demon" than "anti-pig"...

Thank you for the explanation of the pigs killing scene.
Christians believe that Jesus is god, right.
and christians also believe that being god, jesus was all-knowing and knew things in advance. This is evidence because christians believe that Jesus was actually god who came down to earth to atone humans sins with his own blood. Hence, he'd known he would sacrifice himself by crucifixion.

Now let's go back to the 2,000 pigs killing scene. Based on christianity premise of jesus being god, surely Jesus pbuh must have known in advance that droving the evil spirits into the 2,000 pigs would cause the death of all those pigs, and yet he did it anyway.

Therefore, it is safe to assume that Jesus did not think much about killing those 2,000 pigs.

[Ramadhan]

These are the things Jesus pbuh would do:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"

{Matthew 26:39}

-Not eating pork (leviticus 11:7, Deuteronomy 14:8)

-Praying from dawn to evening (Psalms 113:3)

-Supplicating with hands raised (1 Kings 8:54, Nehemiah 8:6)

-No alcohol (Luke 1:15)

-Fasting (Matthew 4:2 - 5:6 - 6-16)

-Greetings (all prophets greeted by "peace be upon you (pbuh)!" Translation: "al salamu aleikum" as all muslims of today great each other... John 20:19-21-26, Luke 24:36, Matthew 10:12-13)

-Muslim frequently use the phrase "Insha Allah" (James 4:14-15)

-Charity (Leviticus 27:30-33)

-No interest (psalms 15:5, Exodus 22:25)

-Circumcision (Luke 2:21)

-Woman with veil on her hair (1corinthians 11:6)

-Taking of shoes in holy worship places (exodus 3:5 - Joshua 5:15 - Acts 7-33)

-Ablution before praying (Exodus 40:31-32)

-Following the lunar calendar (Isaiah 66:23)

-Pilgrimage (deuteronomy 12:5-7)


Had Jesus pbuh been among us today, there would be not a shred of doubt that he would be a muslim.
Tell me one christian that does ALL those things that Jesus pbuh did, while I can tell you a billion muslims who do.

[Nathaniel]

Christians believe that Jesus is god, right.
and christians also believe that being god, jesus was all-knowing and knew things in advance.

No, Jesus was not all-knowing, as he was fully man.

The simple reason Christians don't eat pork is because of what Jesus says in Mark 7:14-22 (TNIV):
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside you can defile you by going into you. Rather, it is what comes out of you that defiles you."

After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters you from the outside can defile you? For it doesn't go into your heart but into your stomach, and then out of your body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

He went on: "What comes out of you is what defiles you. For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile you."

[Santoku]

I was just thinking about the question this morning, and the more I thought about it, the more clear the answer is.
There has been strong movement especially in the USA called WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) to speculate about the actions of Jesus pbuh had he lived among us now.

If Jesus pbuh lived today, what would he be?

Let's see:
- He would believe in one God
- He would establish daily prayer and worships to God
- He would be circumcised
- He would not eat pork
- He would fast on certain days
- He would give alms/zakat
(these facts are from the Bible)

Based on the above characteristics, people would think he's a muslim, of course.

What do you think?

Which Jesus? Muslism Jesus or Christian Jesus?

[aadil77]

1) Why did God create pigs if only to kill them at the end of time?
2) Jesus sent the evil spirits into the pigs, and the evil spirits killed the pigs.

Why did god create anything that is harmful and forbidden? drugs, alcohol etc

Mainly because its His will and then because it is a test for mankind

[Nathaniel]

I think this is the key question: did Jesus do anything that Muslims do but 1st century Jews didn't do? I don't think an example of this has been given (yet), so the most obvious answer seems to be that Jesus was a Jew.

[tango92]

^^ right and the jews were (supposed to be) muslim

[Predator]

The simple reason Christians don't eat pork is because of what Jesus says in Mark 7:14-22 (TNIV):
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside you can defile you by going into you. Rather, it is what comes out of you that defiles you."

After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters you from the outside can defile you? For it doesn't go into your heart but into your stomach, and then out of your body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

The Gospels show Jesus breaking the laws of the Torah. According to Matthew and Mark, Jesus said that all foods are clean, but the Jewish Law clearly prohibits the consumption of pork!

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. (Matthew 15:11)

"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' (Mark 7:18-20)

Notice how the deceptive editors placed a note (in brackets) claiming that Jesus made all foods clean. This is clearly false, and Jesus never uttered these words. The Gospels were written under the influence of Paul, who rejected the Jewish Law (Hebrews 5:13, Galatians 3:13)

The Gentile writers fabricated these words to make Jesus say that all foods are clean, thus supporting the Pauline doctrine. According to Matthew 5:17-20, 23:23, Jesus came to preach the Jewish Law, and what does the Jewish Law say about eating pork?

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.
Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you. (Leviticus 11:7-8)

And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
These ye shall eat of all that [are] in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: (Deu 14:8-9)

The Bible prohibits the eating of pork. Jesus never made permissible the consumption of ‘all’ foods, it was a Pauline innovation by the Gospel writers.

The Gnostic leader Marcion (d 140 CE) said that Jewish scribes were corrupting the Gospels by adding Jewish material into them. This proves that the four Gospels were originally composed by Gentile (pagan) writers.

Jesus only ate kosher meat and was forbidden to eat pig’s flesh.

"By what comes out of a man defileth a man ", he means waste products such as excreta as we all know that the Pig eats almost anything, be it human excreta or anything foul and unwholesome. Amongst all animal flesh, pork is the favoured cradle of harmful germs. Pork also serves as a carrier of diseases to mankind. It is for this reason that its flesh is not suitable for consumption and Thus by eating the pork , you're actually consuming those harmful germs some of which could not be killed even by cooking

[Nathaniel]

^^ right and the jews were (supposed to be) muslim

Was their statement of faith that "there is no God but YHWH and Moses is his messenger"?
Did they perform prayers five times a day?
Did they fast for a month each year?
Did they participate in a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lifetime?

How else do you define a Muslim without the Five Pillars?

[Nathaniel]

Notice how the deceptive editors placed a note (in brackets) claiming that Jesus made all foods clean.

You realise that there are no brackets in Greek?

How, then, do you interpret Jesus' words that "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?" It seems to me that you either have to say this is a corrupt verse, or that Jesus really did teach that what you eat doesn't make you unclean (but cleanliness depends on your heart).

[Predator]

How, then, do you interpret Jesus' words that "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?" It seems to me that you either have to say this is a corrupt verse, or that Jesus really did teach that what you eat doesn't make you unclean (but cleanliness depends on your heart).

Jesus never mentioned that it was pork . Would you eat the cockroaches , worms and insects that are found in the sewage ?No ! So the same applies to the Pig as it feed on waste products

[aadil77]

Was their statement of faith that "there is no God but YHWH and Moses is his messenger"?

Yes

Did they perform prayers five times a day?

No, the command for that amount of prayers came after the prophet Muhammad was told to tell his people.

Did they fast for a month each year?

I'm not sure, although they fasted on the day of ashura (when moses was saved from pharoah)

Did they participate in a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lifetime?

I think, I'm not sure, that prophet Sulaiman (Solomon) did go with a group of jews for pilgramage to makkah

How else do you define a Muslim without the Five Pillars?

Thats about it, aslong as they followed everything that was revealed to them by Allah through their own prophets, they were muslim

There have been muslims since the creation of Adam till now, whether they called themselves jews, christians or whatever, as long as they folloed the true message revealed to them they are muslims.

Remember there were over 40,000 prophets sent to mankind, so there have been believers throughout those periods

[Nathaniel]

Jesus never mentioned that it was pork . Would you eat the cockroaches , worms and insects that are found in the sewage ?No ! So the same applies to the Pig as it feed on waste products

So what did Jesus mean when he said that it isn't what goes in your mouth that makes you unclean but what comes out of it? What is your interpretation?

[Nathaniel]

There have been muslims since the creation of Adam till now, whether they called themselves jews, christians or whatever, as long as they folloed the true message revealed to them they are muslims.

So basically you've loosened up the definition of Muslim in order to make Jesus a Muslim. Does that mean I'm allowed to say that Moses was a Christian? Because I can define a Christian as someone who follows the true message of YHWH, and Moses certainly did that!

[aadil77]

So basically you've loosened up the definition of Muslim in order to make Jesus a Muslim. Does that mean I'm allowed to say that Moses was a Christian? Because I can define a Christian as someone who follows the true message of YHWH, and Moses certainly did that!

He certainly did follow the true message of Allah, but your understanding of 'true mesage' is not the same as ours, because if it was - nothing in the Quran and bible would conflict.

And no I haven't 'loosened up the definition of Muslim in order to make Jesus a Muslim' because Allah already states that in our Quran

[Uthman]

Bear in mind that the definition of a Muslim in the linguistic sense is a person who submits. In a religious context, it refers to a person who submits themselves to God. Therefore, it is absolutely correct in this sense to say that Jesus and Moses were Muslims.

[Predator]

So what did Jesus mean when he said that it isn't what goes in your mouth that makes you unclean but what comes out of it? What is your interpretation?

"By what comes out of a man defileth a man ", he means waste products such as excreta as we all know that the Pig eats almost anything, be it human excreta or anything foul and unwholesome. Amongst all animal flesh, pork is the favoured cradle of harmful germs. Pork also serves as a carrier of diseases to mankind. It is for this reason that its flesh is not suitable for consumption and Thus by eating the pork , you're actually consuming those harmful germs many of which could not be killed even by cooking


01- CONSUMPTION OF PORK CAUSE SEVERAL DISEASES

The other non-Muslims and atheists (disbelievers of God) will agree only if convinced through reason, logic and science. Eating of pork can cause no less than SEVENTY different types of diseases.

A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc… One of the most dangerous is “Taenia Solium”, which is in lay man’s terminology called tapeworm. It harbors in the intestine and is very long. Its ova i.e. eggs, enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body.

Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature.


02-DISEASES CAUSED BY PORK IN DETAIL

The following lists show germs or parasites that are found in pork and some diseases caused by them. Many of these diseases are contagious while some are proven fatal. This proves that the more science advances the more Islam is shown correct as a religion of God.


PARASITIC (Bloodsucking) DISEASES

a) TRICHINELLA SPIRATIS ( Trichina worms )
It is the most dangerous parasite to man ( Rheumatism and muscular pain). The infected persons shown no symptoms, recover very slowly some die, some reduced to permanent invalids. No one is immune from this disease and there is no cure.

b) TAENIA SOLIUM ( Pork tape worm )
The worm causes malnourishment of the person leading to anemia, diarrhea, extreme depression melancholia and digestive disturbances. Cysticercosis means that larva enter the blood stream then settle down in one or more of the vital organs of the body, for example: brain, liver, lungs or spinal cord. They grow and encapsulate, inducing pressure to thesystem around, resulting in dangerous diseases (diarrhea,digestive disorder, anemia, chronic invalidation).

c) ROUND WORMS
Examples: Ascaris, which may lead to digestive disturbances, appendicitis, obstructive jaundice.

d) HOOK WORMS
Examples:Ancylostomiasis, which may lead to anemia, oedema, heart failure or retarded growth ( mental and physical), tuberculosis,
diarrhea and typhoid.

e) SCHITOSOMA JAPONICUM
Bleeding, anemia and other syndromes. If ova are settled in the brain or spinal cord, paralysis and death may occur.

f) PARAGOMINES WESTERMAINI
Infestation leading to bleeding of the lungs ( endenve haemoptysis )

g) PACIOLEPSIS BUSKI
Digestive disturbances leading to persistent diarrhea; generalized oedema.

h) CLONORCHIS SINENSIS
chlonorchiasis-obstructive jaundice, liver enlargement.

i) METASTRONGYLUS APRI
Causes bronchitis, abscess of the lungs.

j) GIGANTHORINCHUS GIGAS
Cause anemia and digestive disorders.

k) BALATITIDIUM COLI
Causes acute dysentery and general weakness.



BACTERIAL DISEASES

Tuberculosis Fusiformis necrofurus: causing foot-rot which is very difficult to heal.
Salmonella Cholera suis: causing cholera Paratyphoid
Bruceellosis: Acute, sub acute and chronic. It may lead to permanent disabilities.
Swine Erysipelas: causing Erysipelas in man.

VIRAL DISEASES

Small pox: is was a source of infection to man.
Japanese B-encepphalitis: It is the source of infection
Influenza, foot mouth disease, gas tro-enteritis of the new born babies.


PROTOZOAN DISEASES

Toxo plasma goundii- It is a very dangerous diseases. A new born baby of an infected woman may die within few days or weeks after delivery. But if he survives he may develop blindness or deafness.In adult chronic exhaustive fever with enlarged liver and spleen may occur. Pneumonia, or celebro- spinal meninggitis which may lead to death or madness. The patient may become blind and deaf too.


OTHER DISEASES

Flesh of the pork is hard to digest and may lead to chronic digestive disturbances. Pimples, boils, cysts are common in pork eaters. These are some of the parasites and diseases found in pork and/ or the skin of pigs and certainly there are many more. There is still no means of killing these parasites, in the tissues, neither has anyone found a method of expelling them, even produced any specific treatment for the diseases.




03-FATS IN PIGS

Pork contains more fats than other meats. Therefore, people who are loving of pork are more fat than others. Cholesterol is higher in their blood thus making them more flat to asthereosclerosis cardiovascular accidents and sudden death.


04-PIG IS THE MOST SHAMELESS ANIMAL

The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say “you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife.” If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common practice in South Asia.


05- PIG IS ONE OF THE FILTHIEST ANIMALS ON EARTH

The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, feces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers defecate in the open air (Body releases) and Very often these releases are cleared by pigs.

Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are filthy by nature. They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbor's excreta.

[Ramadhan]

No, Jesus was not all-knowing, as he was fully man.

Alhamdulillah!

Finally a christian who acknowledges Jesus pbuh was fully man!

The simple reason Christians don't eat pork is because of what Jesus says in Mark 7:14-22 (TNIV):
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside you can defile you by going into you. Rather, it is what comes out of you that defiles you."

After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters you from the outside can defile you? For it doesn't go into your heart but into your stomach, and then out of your body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

He went on: "What comes out of you is what defiles you. For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile you."

I do not claim to be an expert in bible, but to me those verses do not abolish what foods are allowed and what are not allowed. The verses only say that what you eat do not make you unclean/defiled, they do not say that you can eat all food.
So you think Mark 7-22 supercede these following verses:

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase." Deuteronomy 14:8

And Jesus (pbuh) came to reinforce verses like Deuteronomy 14:8 quoted above with:

Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,
5:18 - because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.
5:19 - So whoever sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven
5:20 - because I tell you, unless your righteousness greatly exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!"


If you really think that Jesus pbuh would be happy with you eating pork, be my guest. I am not the one claims to follow his teaching. I am just pointing out that Jesus pbuh stated otherwise supported by your own scriptures.

By the way, did you know that Mark 7:16 is problematic? Except for KJV, no other bible version list 7:16 in the main text.
That shows you how (un)reliable your own scripture is.

Honestly, do you really think ALL food is clean for you?
Do you really believe Jesus pbuh made all food okay to eat?

[Ramadhan]

Which Jesus? Muslism Jesus or Christian Jesus?

Can't you read? or do you just love to shoot cr*ap out of your mouth?

Originally Posted by naidamar View Post
I was just thinking about the question this morning, and the more I thought about it, the more clear the answer is.
There has been strong movement especially in the USA called WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) to speculate about the actions of Jesus pbuh had he lived among us now.

If Jesus pbuh lived today, what would he be?

Let's see:
- He would believe in one God
- He would establish daily prayer and worships to God
- He would be circumcised
- He would not eat pork
- He would fast on certain days
- He would give alms/zakat
(these facts are from the Bible)

Based on the above characteristics, people would think he's a muslim, of course.

What do you think?

[Uthman]

Please be civil! :)

[Ramadhan]

From http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...AskAboutIslamE


In the first place, we need to recognize that, according to the Christian Gospels, there were pigs in Palestine at the time of Jesus (peace be upon him). In one of the Gospel accounts of Jesus healing a young man possessed with devils, Jesus commands the devils to leave the man and to go, instead, into a head of pigs.



In the story, the pigs then rush off a nearby cliff and are killed. In Saint Luke's story of the Prodigal Son, too, Jesus talks about a young man who goes off with his share of the inheritance and wastes it on wine, women and song, until he is so penniless that he has to take a job looking after pigs.



So clearly there were pigs around. What were they doing in Palestine, when Jews do not eat pork? Who were they for? In fact, both the Romans and the Greeks used to eat pork as a delicacy, so we must assume that the pigs were bred either for export or to feed the Romans who were occupying Palestine at the time.



In one of the first books of the Old Testament the Jews are told very clearly which animals they may eat and which animals they may not eat. We read:



"… and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you." (Leviticus 11:7-8)



To this day, Jews do not eat pork.



From what we read in the Gospels, Jesus says nothing at all about eating or not eating pork, so where do his Christian followers get the idea from that it is permissible to eat pork?



As a prophet of Islam, Jesus would not have eaten pork, but it is highly unlikely, according even to the Gospel accounts themselves, that he would have done so as a Jew.



Why the change, then? Why do Christians eat pork, if they believe that their religion grew out of the Jewish one, which forbids it?



Jesus, in fact, is quoted as saying in Saint Matthew's Gospel,



"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them."



In such a case, then, we can only presume that he left untouched the instruction about pork.



The answer, in fact, lies not with Jesus, but with the Church which grew up after him and claimed to speak in his name.



After Jesus died, according to a book called Acts of the Apostles written by St Luke, a dispute arose among his followers about those who converted to Christianity. In the earliest days, the followers of Jesus were known as "followers of the Way." They did not consider themselves as anything other than Jews, but they followed the teachings of the Jewish rabbi, Jesus. It was only later in Antioch that they first came to be called "Christians."



Some people said that if someone wanted to be a follower of Jesus, he clearly had to become a Jew first.



"But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, 'It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic Law.' The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter." (Acts 15:5)



A meeting was held in Jerusalem to discuss this. It was much more important than a debate about circumcision, since its results would determine the future of those who followed Jesus. There were basically two arguments.



The first was put forward by the Apostle James, heavily influenced by Peter. He upheld the traditional view about circumcision and observation of the Jewish Law. In other words, as Jews the followers of Jesus had to follow the Jewish laws.



Paul of Tarsus, on the other hand, said that there was no longer any need for those new to Christianity to observe the Mosaic Law and become Jews, since Christianity was something different to Judaism.



A compromise was reached. Those who were born as Jews but who had become followers of Jesus would continue to observe the laws of the Jews. Those who were converts did not have to. The prevailing idea was expressed by Peter,



"The truth I have come to realize is that God does not have favorites. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:34).



Laws particular to the Jews would no longer need to apply.



So, you see, it was not Jesus who changed the rule about eating pork. He was quite clear that the Law said you must not do so. As in so many other cases, it was his followers, who became known as the Church, who made this new rule.



If Christians did not have to become Jews, then Christians were no longer bound by the rules of circumcision or of dietary requirements. They could eat as much pork as they wanted.



These leaders would ultimately declare, three hundred years later, that Jesus was God.

[Supreme]

Bear in mind that the definition of a Muslim in the linguistic sense is a person who submits. In a religious context, it refers to a person who submits themselves to God. Therefore, it is absolutely correct in this sense to say that Jesus and Moses were Muslims.

So if a Christian and Jew submits to God, are they by linguistic definition Muslims too? Heck, you can pretty much claim that any devout theist is thus a Muslims seeing as they have devoted themselves to God.

[Uthman]

But if they are not following God's true guidance, can we really say they are truly submitting to him? :)

[Supreme]

But if they are not following God's true guidance, can we really say they are truly submitting to him? :)

Yes, but each religion claims it's following God's true guidance. Therefore, should those people see themselves as Muslims?

[Nathaniel]

Bear in mind that the definition of a Muslim in the linguistic sense is a person who submits. In a religious context, it refers to a person who submits themselves to God. Therefore, it is absolutely correct in this sense to say that Jesus and Moses were Muslims.

Sure, we can take that definition, but then Zoroastrians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahais, and (dare I say it) Trinitarian Christians are all Muslims.

[Nathaniel]

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them."

So what did Jesus mean when he said that he came to "fulfill" the Law?

[Uthman]

Yes, but each religion claims it's following God's true guidance. Therefore, should those people see themselves as Muslims?

I suppose this is getting a little abstract, but if they claim to be submitting to God, then I suppose that they might call themselves Muslims in the linguistic sense since it basically means the same thing but in different languages. Within the sphere of Islamic theology though, they would obviously not be considered Muslims unless they follow what was revealed by Prophet Muhammad (:saws:).

[Predator]

and (dare I say it) Trinitarian Christians are all Muslims.

Wrong


Surah Maidah Verse 73.

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.


If you were to worship only God the Father ( God Almighty) as the creator of the universe and say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not GODs but are his creations and they are just servants of God then you are monothiest

A monotheist worships the One and only Uncreated being

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the created beings and thus cannot be called Gods

GOD Almighty is uncreated and how can he create another Uncreated ????

Look this is common sense, HE CANT CREATE ANOTHER GOD.

[Nathaniel]

Airforce,

Feel free to quote me completely out of context if you like. But if you'd actually like to engage with what I said, here is what you should have quoted:

Sure, we can take that definition, but then Zoroastrians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahais, and (dare I say it) Trinitarian Christians are all Muslims.

I'd also recommend that you do a little research about what Christians actually believe about God rather than saying what the Quran claims we believe. Christians do not believe that "Allah is one of three in a Trinity" - we believe that the One God (YHWH) has existed eternally as three Persons. We do not believe that the Son or the Spirit were created.

[mkh4JC]

I'd also recommend that you do a little research about what Christians actually believe about God rather than saying what the Quran claims we believe. Christians do not believe that "Allah is one of three in a Trinity" - we believe that the One God (YHWH) has existed eternally as three Persons. We do not believe that the Son or the Spirit were created.

Yes and perhaps for a person to come to some kind of understanding of the Trinity (though of course not complete understanding) I could say that the Bible says in the book of Genesis that God made man in his image and likeness. And as we are triune beings or threefold beings and still one, so too is he. As it goes; God=the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body. So just as we are threefold beings and are still one, so too is God. That's not all it means to be made in the image and likeness of God but it is one of the things it means.

[Supreme]

Airforce,

Feel free to quote me completely out of context if you like. But if you'd actually like to engage with what I said, here is what you should have quoted:



I'd also recommend that you do a little research about what Christians actually believe about God rather than saying what the Quran claims we believe. Christians do not believe that "Allah is one of three in a Trinity" - we believe that the One God (YHWH) has existed eternally as three Persons. We do not believe that the Son or the Spirit were created.

I would have to agree with him that Jesus was a created being, but the part of God that became incarnate as Jesus, that we now call the Son, is uncreated.

[Nathaniel]

I would have to agree with him that Jesus was a created being, but the part of God that became incarnate as Jesus, that we now call the Son, is uncreated.

He also said that the Holy Spirit was created, so I wanted to clarify the eternal nature of the Son and the Spirit. Of course, Jesus' human nature was necessarily finite.

[Supreme]

He also said that the Holy Spirit was created, so I wanted to clarify the eternal nature of the Son and the Spirit. Of course, Jesus' human nature was necessarily finite.

Oh yes, such a statement requires minimal understanding from even the least capable of folk. And saying the Holy Spirit is created is just a stupid thing to say. How can God be created? Such an idea is blasphemous in Christianity.