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View Full Version : Pondering over Ibn Sina's (Avicenna) words.



Zico
01-18-2010, 10:22 AM
God, the supreme being, is neither circumscribed by space, nor touched by time; he cannot be found in a particular direction, and his essence cannot change. The secret conversation is thus entirely spiritual; it is a direct encounter between God and the soul, abstracted from all material constraints.


- Ibn Sina, "Kitab al-Najat"


Now I wonder how did he get to that conclusion? (a man from his century)
I think he hits a very important & interesting topic here...


What do muslims and non-muslims think?
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
01-18-2010, 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by Zico
God, the supreme being, is neither circumscribed by space, nor touched by time; he cannot be found in a particular direction, and his essence cannot change. The secret conversation is thus entirely spiritual; it is a direct encounter between God and the soul, abstracted from all material constraints.


- Ibn Sina, "Kitab al-Najat"


Now I wonder how did he get to that conclusion? (a man from his century)
I think he hits a very important & interesting topic here...


What do muslims and non-muslims think?
:sl:

When it comes to Allaah we have to make sure our sources on what we say is the Prophet (saw) and the early Muslims. There were many sects that emerged that deviated greatly in this such as the Jahmiyyah and Mu'tazila and the philosophers who spoke about Allaah that which they had no knowledge of. Allaah says:

{Say, "My Lord has only forbidden immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed - and sin, and oppression without right, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down authority, and that you say about Allah that which you do not know."}al-'Araaf, 33

The belief of Ahl as-Sunnah is that Allaah is that they affirm direction to Allaah and say that He is above us, above the seven heavens and above His throne as He has informed us in His Book and on the tongue of His Messenger.

The great companion 'Abdullah bin Abbas said,
'Verily Allaah was above His Throne before He created anything, then He created the creation and decreed what was to exist until the Day of Judgement.'
'Sharh Usul I'tiqaad' of al-Laalikaaee, pg. 496

And the companion, Ibn Mas'ud said about His saying, "then He rose over His Throne", - 'the Throne is over the water, and Allaah is above (fawqa) the Throne, and He knows what you are upon.'

'Khalq Af'aal al-Ebaad' of Imaam Bukhaaree (RH), pp.13+

And Imaam ash-Shafiee said:
"The belief that I am upon, and I saw Our Companions, the Ashaabul Hadeeth - like Maalik and Sufyaan and others - to be upon is: affirming the testimony that none has the right to be worshiped except Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah. And that Allaah is Over His Throne, above His Heaven (alaa Arshihi fee Samaa’ihi), He comes close to His Creation howsoever He Wills, and He Descends to the lowest heaven howsoever He Wills."
‘Awn al-Ma’bood’ (13/41), and ibn Abu Ya’la reports it in ‘Tabaqaat al-Hanaabilaa’ (1/283) with a chain of narration linked back to ash-Shaafi’ee.

I would advise you to stay away from statements of philosophers such Ibn Sina when it comes to statements of Creed. They are not the source from where we get our religion. We get it from Allaah and His Messenger (saw). I'm going to leave you with a passage from Imaam adh-Dhahabee who said in the final lines of his most excellent work, ‘al-Uluww lil-‘Aliyyil-Ghaffaar’ (pp.286-287):
"Al-Qurtubee said concerning the saying of Allaah, the Most High, "Then he ascended (istawaa) the Throne",

"We have explained the sayings of the Scholars regarding this issue in the book ‘al-Asnaa fee Sharh al-Asmaa al-Husnaa’ and we mentioned fourteen different sayings therein"

up until he said,

"And the Salaf of the very first times - may Allaah be pleased with them all - never used to negate direction (al-jihah) for Allaah and nor did they used to express this (negation). Rather, they, and all of the others, used to speak with its affirmation for Allaah, the Most High just as His Book has spoken about it and just as His Messengers informed of it. And not a single one of the Salaf denied that his ascending (istawaa) the Throne was real and true (haqeeqah) (as opposed to metaphorical, majaaz). And Allaah specified the Throne with istawaa because that is the greatest of all His creation. However they assumed ignorance only of the exact nature (kaifiyyah) of istiwaa, for the true nature of that is not known. Imaam Maalik said, ‘Istiwaa is known…’, meaning in the language, ‘…its true nature is unknown and asking about it is an innovation."

And al-Qurtubee also said in ‘al-Asnaa’,

"Many of the past and contemporary philosophers said, ‘When it is necessary to purify the Creator (al-Baaree) - whose Magnificence is great - from having direction (jihah) and demarcation (tamayyuz), then from the requirements and necessary consequences of this, in the view of most of the past scholars and their leading contemporaries, is the purify the Creator (al-Baaree) from having direction (jihah). In their view, direction does not have the aspect of ‘above’ to it. This is because to them, when Allaah is designated with direction, this would necessitate that He is restricted to a place (makaan) and a confine (hayyiz). (Subsequently), a place and a confine necessitate (for Him) (such) movement and stillness that is related to distinction (tamayyuz), transformation (taghayyur) and new occurrences (hudooth) . This is the saying of the philosophers.


I (adh-Dhahabee) say,
"Yes, this is what the deniers of the ‘uluww (highness) of the Lord, Mighty and Majestic, have depended upon. And they turned away from the requirement of the Book, the Sunnah, the sayings of the Salaf and the innate dispositions of the whole of creation. What they claim to be necessitated (from affirming Allaah’s highness) is only applicable to created bodies. Yet there is nothing like Allaah and the necessities arising from the clear and evident texts (of the Book and the Sunnah) are also true. However, we do not make use of any explanation except one that comes through a narration. In addition to this we say, ‘We do not accept that the Creator’s being upon His Throne and above the heavens, necessitates that He is confined and in spatial direction, since whatever is below the Throne is said to be confined and in spatial direction. However, what is above the Throne is not like that.

And Allaah is above the Throne as the very first generation are unanimously agreed upon and as the imaams after them have quoted from them. They said this in refutation of the Jahmiyyah, those who said that He is in every place seeking as a proof His saying, ‘And He is with you…’. So these two sayings were the very two sayings which were present in the time of the Taabi’een and their successors who came after them. And they are the two sayings that can be understood in this statement (i.e. of the philosophers). As for the third saying which came around after this which is that’ Allaah the Most High is not in any place, nor is His Holy Essence (Dhaat) confined, nor is He separate and distinct from His creation, nor is he in any spatial direction, nor is outside of any spatial directions, and nor this and nor that…’ then this is something that cannot be comprehended nor understood [1], along with the fact that within it is opposition to the verses (of the Book) and the narrations (from the Salaf). Therefore flee with your religion and beware of the opinions of the philosophers. Believe in Allaah and what has come from Him upon the desired intent of Allaah, then submit your affair to Him and there is no power nor movement except by Allaah."

The book is completed and all praise is to Allaah alone…"
End of quote from adh-Dhahabee.
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