question for a christian

[mohammed_alim]

hello all. am not here to turn this thread into a debate just want to ask 2 questions which i need some answers for and then the thread can simply be closed.

• i would like to know if interest (usary) is forbiden in christianity
• and if eating pig is forbidden

if they are forbiden can u tell where it says so from the king james version of the bible. if its not forbiden then no problem we just leave it there.

thank you all

[Italianguy]

hello all. am not here to turn this thread into a debate just want to ask 2 questions which i need some answers for and then the thread can simply be closed.

• i would like to know if interest (usary) is forbiden in christianity
• and if eating pig is forbidden

if they are forbiden can u tell where it says so from the king james version of the bible. if its not forbiden then no problem we just leave it there.

thank you all

Yes, Pork is forbidden for a Christian, sadly many don't follow this as I do. I will qoute the verse for you.

Leviticus 11

Clean and Unclean Food

1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud.
4 " 'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you. 5 The coney, [a] though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.


Hope this helps? There are many more listed as unclean. But I figured this is a shorter answer.

God bless.

[Italianguy]

Yes, Pork is forbidden for a Christian, sadly many don't follow this as I do. I will qoute the verse for you.

Leviticus 11

Clean and Unclean Food

1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud.
4 " 'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you. 5 The coney, [a] though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.


Hope this helps? There are many more listed as unclean. But I figured this is a shorter answer.

God bless.

I appologise this is the King james version, the one above is the New International Version.

Leviticus 11
1And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,

2Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.

3Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.

4Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

5And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

6And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

7And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

8Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

9These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.

10And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

11They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

[Italianguy]

Sorry bro, i forgot to post this in the first one for you.


Deuteronomy 23:18-20 (King James Version)

18Thou shalt not bring the hire of a *****, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

19Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:

20Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

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[mohammed_alim]

italianguy thanx alot pal. thats wat i needed to know. thanx

[Italianguy]

italianguy thanx alot pal. thats wat i needed to know. thanx

Thats what I am here for!:statisfie I am happy that helped.

[mohammed_alim]

Thats what I am here for!:statisfie I am happy that helped.

hey italianguy i cudnt reply bcos i need to have 50 posts to send private reply. bt anyway i dnt mind answering ur question here.... basically i have a m8 i work with, his a practising christian. am the 1st muslim his ever met. when i 1st met him i told him i dnt eat pork at all. so he often takes the p*** (sorry 4 bad lang) outa me for not eating it and wat am missing out on so bcos i know islam and christianity are very similar i told him that am pretty sure christians r not allowed to eat pork.. and also we got into a talk about banks and i told him muslims dnt take interest also ect... he found dat part shocking and thought dats crazy.. so i said again am sure its the same in ur religion (christianity) so he said told me to prove it from the king james version like where it says those 2 things r not allowed.

[Nathaniel]

Yes, Pork is forbidden for a Christian, sadly many don't follow this as I do.

The more common view is that Jesus declared all foods clean:

"Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") - Mark 7:18-20 (TNIV)

Hebrews 7:11-12 is also very relevant for understanding why the law changed:

If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. - (TNIV)

[جوري]

So why would Jesus (your god) contradict himself by abolishing the laws of the OT and by the same token say:

in Matt 5:17, Jesus clearly states “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”

[Nathaniel]

So why would Jesus (your god) contradict himself by abolishing the laws of the OT and by the same token say:

in Matt 5:17, Jesus clearly states “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”

Because the last four words (in bold) mean that there is no contradiction whatsoever. The whole point of the passage in Hebrews (from which the quoted in part) is that Jesus superseded the Levitical priesthood as the new Priest.

[Rabi Mansur]

Because the last four words (in bold) mean that there is no contradiction whatsoever. The whole point of the passage in Hebrews (from which the quoted in part) is that Jesus superseded the Levitical priesthood as the new Priest.

I was always taught that the law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, hence there was no need to follow all the Mosaic laws anymore because they had served their purpose.

Almost all the Christians I know have no problem with usury and they eat pork. Neither of these two things are an issue for most Christians.

:wa:

[جوري]

Because the last four words (in bold) mean that there is no contradiction whatsoever. The whole point of the passage in Hebrews (from which the quoted in part) is that Jesus superseded the Levitical priesthood as the new Priest.

I don't see fulfillment in allowing a prohibition, do you?
There should be more than words on pages right? to fulfill the laws abandoned by the Jews doesn't equal to abrogating them?!

all the best

[Rabi Mansur]

I don't see fulfillment in allowing a prohibition, do you?
There should be more than words on pages right? to fulfill the laws abandoned by the Jews doesn't equal to abrogating them?!

all the best

I was taught that the mosaic laws had served their purpose and were replaced by a higher law through Jesus Christ. The Aaronic laws were given to the Jews when they rejected the higher law at Mount Sinai.

How does Islam view these laws? I don't see Muslims having to obey the Sabbath, be circumsized, not eat camel meat, etc., as required by the Mosaic law. They still follow the prohibition on pork, but there are a lot of things I read that were part of the Mosaic law that Islam no longer seems to follow.
What is the rationale for that? Have some of those laws been abrogated?

:wa:

[جوري]

I was taught that the mosaic laws had served their purpose and were replaced by a higher law through Jesus Christ. The Aaronic laws were given to the Jews when they rejected the higher law at Mount Sinai.

How does Islam view these laws? I don't see Muslims having to obey the Sabbath, be circumsized, not eat camel meat, etc., as required by the Mosaic law. They still follow the prohibition on pork, but there are a lot of things I read that were part of the Mosaic law that Islam no longer seems to follow.
What is the rationale for that? Have some of those laws been abrogated?

:wa:

God doesn't abrogate his commandments, there is no reason to, yes you have to keep with the laws, be circumcised etc. we observe all prayers but friday is considered a type of Eid. the sabbath was a test for the Jews which they didn't uphold.

(4: 47) O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah must be carried out.


and Allah swt knows best

:w:

[Italianguy]

I was always taught that the law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, hence there was no need to follow all the Mosaic laws anymore because they had served their purpose.

Almost all the Christians I know have no problem with usury and they eat pork. Neither of these two things are an issue for most Christians.

:wa:

Speak only for yourself, especially if you are a non-Christian my freind.

If Christ has changed and or abolished all old testament or Mosaic law, why do we have an old testament? Why not just the teachings of Christ book? We are not to follow the old testament veiws of sacrificing living creatures and such, but we are to follow what the Bible says. And still....until someone shows me (not metaphoricaly speaking) that Jesus said "it's ok to eat what the Father has told us not to now" I will continue to do so (not eat pork) for the same reason the Bible tells women NOT to speak in the church as a pastor or priest! AND to cover their heads in modesty before God in His huose as well while in prayer. I could care less what these so called liberal new movement Bible changing Christians are doing, I read what it says with out trying to make it work for my life, but rather making my life work for God!

And you are absalutely correct!!!! There are a lot of Christians doing wayyyyyyyyy worse things against God written and spoken law and word, than just eating pork, or charging people interest(insane amounts no one can afford) to build their own personal kingdoms,and justify it by titheing:heated:With only profits made off the interest!

It saddens my heart to see how distant we have become from God, and how we made our personal relationship with God through Christ just a pocket item...our own personal Jesus, not to be shared:cry:.

I have now become a historical manager i guess you could call it for my church, it is a life application newer age church. They have asked me to address any problems I may see that would cause the church body to stray from the message. Our church has 3,442 members so my work is cut out for me only being 1. Example; their were men comming in with hats on and the church had started a gender mixed singles Bible study, in which i put a stop to immediatley, after an interveiw investigation, i found %70 of the members ......dating, and or worse.

Start reading your Bibles for yourselves(Christians)....try it, you will be amazed how much you and I are doing wrong. Do not interpret it to make it what you want. Interpret it to tell you how to be.

God bless.

[Italianguy]

hey italianguy i cudnt reply bcos i need to have 50 posts to send private reply. bt anyway i dnt mind answering ur question here.... basically i have a m8 i work with, his a practising christian. am the 1st muslim his ever met. when i 1st met him i told him i dnt eat pork at all. so he often takes the p*** (sorry 4 bad lang) outa me for not eating it and wat am missing out on so bcos i know islam and christianity are very similar i told him that am pretty sure christians r not allowed to eat pork.. and also we got into a talk about banks and i told him muslims dnt take interest also ect... he found dat part shocking and thought dats crazy.. so i said again am sure its the same in ur religion (christianity) so he said told me to prove it from the king james version like where it says those 2 things r not allowed.

Ok, wow....a Muslim having to educate a Christian;D on Christian belief...ironic, buttttt cool to say the least.:D

There will be many Christians here giving interpretations. BUt there is only what God has commanded. And we may not eat pork, among other things. And were not SUPOSSED to charge intrest.

God be with you friend.

[Nathaniel]

I don't see fulfillment in allowing a prohibition, do you?
There should be more than words on pages right? to fulfill the laws abandoned by the Jews doesn't equal to abrogating them?!

I like to consider the analogy with the way parents bring up their child. When the child is very young, they have to obey rules that would be ridiculous for a teenager to have to follow (like being in bed before 8 o'clock, or not being allowed outside on their own). Though these rules no longer apply to the teenager, that does not mean that the now-abandoned rules were worthless (just "words on a page"); no, rather, they had a particular purpose for a particular time, and teach the child valuable principles that will apply to all of life (like the importance of resting and being safe). The rules are fulfilled in the child growing up, now that they have understood these principles.

Just in the same way, we see that the purposes of particular Old Testament laws has been completed (which is what "fulfilled" means) by Jesus. The laws are still immensely valuable, because of their underlying principles and the way they point towards their fulfillment in Jesus.

[Nathaniel]

If Christ has changed and or abolished all old testament or Mosaic law, why do we have an old testament? Why not just the teachings of Christ book? We are not to follow the old testament veiws of sacrificing living creatures and such, but we are to follow what the Bible says. And still....until someone shows me (not metaphoricaly speaking) that Jesus said "it's ok to eat what the Father has told us not to now" I will continue to do so (not eat pork) for the same reason the Bible tells women NOT to speak in the church as a pastor or priest!

See my previous post, and (again) Jesus' very explicit statement in Mark 7.

(We can discuss women as priests and pastors another time I'm sure.)

[Italianguy]

See my previous post, and (again) Jesus' very explicit statement in Mark 7.

(We can discuss women as priests and pastors another time I'm sure.)

No need for discussion on women being pastors or preists, It is forbidden.

[Nathaniel]

No need for discussion on women being pastors or preists, It is forbidden.

As I said, another time...

[جوري]

I like to consider the analogy with the way parents bring up their child. When the child is very young, they have to obey rules that would be ridiculous for a teenager to have to follow (like being in bed before 8 o'clock, or not being allowed outside on their own). Though these rules no longer apply to the teenager, that does not mean that the now-abandoned rules were worthless (just "words on a page"); no, rather, they had a particular purpose for a particular time, and teach the child valuable principles that will apply to all of life (like the importance of resting and being safe). The rules are fulfilled in the child growing up, now that they have understood these principles.

Just in the same way, we see that the purposes of particular Old Testament laws has been completed (which is what "fulfilled" means) by Jesus. The laws are still immensely valuable, because of their underlying principles and the way they point towards their fulfillment in Jesus.

The analogy fails.. this isn't about some curfew where we are stretching the time, it is about a prohibition, which Jesus as a ( messenger to the Jews was to uphold)
Either way it doesn't matter how you interpret your book or the words of your god.. to other parties it is very odd for a god to change his mind!


all the best

[Nathaniel]

The analogy fails.. this isn't about some curfew where we are stretching the time, it is about a prohibition, which Jesus as a ( messenger to the Jews was to uphold)
Either way it doesn't matter how you interpret your book or the words of your god.. to other parties it is very odd for a god to change his mind!

The point is that God isn't changing his mind: rather, He had a set purpose for particular Laws when he commanded them which He fulfilled in Jesus. The purpose of the analogy was to compare this to an example where a rule has a set purpose for a particular amount of time, and no longer applies when its purpose is fulfilled. Clearly Jesus fulfils the Law very differently to the way parents' rules are fulfilled by their child growing up.

[جوري]

The point is that God isn't changing his mind: rather, He had a set purpose for particular Laws when he commanded them which He fulfilled in Jesus. The purpose of the analogy was to compare this to an example where a rule has a set purpose for a particular amount of time, and no longer applies when its purpose is fulfilled. Clearly Jesus fulfils the Law very differently to the way parents' rules are fulfilled by their child growing up.

what was the purpose fulfilled in the case of allowing this prohibition?
They start off on baby formula and graduate to neurocysticercosis?

what an odd thing to write...


all the best

[Supreme]

Answer to the question: Neither pork nor usury is forbidden in Christianity. I do think Jewish Christians can't have pork, and possibly some small sects who claim to be Christian do not eat pork, but other than that, neither is forbidden.

[mohammed_alim]

hello people quite a few replies here i c. anyway in work today i told my m8 pork and interest is not allowed in ur religion and i have the verses frm the bible to prove it so he got his ipod out bocs he has got the bible in there bt unfortunately his ipod was not working. he was eager to check if i was right. so good thing i work in amazon online retailer warehouse, where me and my m8 work we are surrounded by books and theres kjv and niv bibles about on the shelves. so there we are...i grabbed the niv bible and i showed him the verses, i was quite supprised myself bcos in the niv bible it VERY clearly states pigs are unclean and to not eat it i didint think it would be as clearer than that. anyway he said he'll speak to his pastor.

this thread can b closed now i think.. i got what i needed to know, no point turning this into a debate bcos its very simple, bible says wat it says so if ur a practising christian n u read kjv or niv bible then u should accept it and follow it and not make excuses to suit ur desires.

once again thanks a lot mr italian guy u got straight to the point

[Supreme]

No he didn't- Nathaniel got right to the point when he showed the verse of when Jesus (quite rightly) said that what goes into a man is of no relevance, but what comes out of a man.

[mohammed_alim]

No he didn't- Nathaniel got right to the point when he showed the verse of when Jesus (quite rightly) said that what goes into a man is of no relevance, but what comes out of a man.

so then why does CLEARLY say in Leviticus 11 pig is unclean and NOT to eat it? why is two differnt things being said?

[Supreme]

so then why does CLEARLY say in Leviticus 11 pig is unclean and NOT to eat it? why is two differnt things being said?

Because that law is a Jewish law, not a Christian one.

[mohammed_alim]

Because that law is a Jewish law, not a Christian one.

i would appreciate if you could answer these questions thank you.

so that rulling is only for the jews and not for the followers of jesus (peace be upon him)?

was jesus (peace be upon him) a jew?

so if jesus (peace be upon him) was a jew then that rulling was also for jesus (peace be upon him) and...... the followers of jesus (peace be upon him) should also stick to that rulling.

i would like to know if there is one rulling for jesus (peace be upon him) and a differnt rulling for his followers?

[Supreme]

so that rulling is only for the jews and not for the followers of jesus (peace be upon him)?

Yes. It's for Jews and Jewish Christians. Christians may follow the law, it is by no means obligatory, however, as the majority of Christians are not Jewish.

was jesus (peace be upon him) a jew?

Yes.

so if jesus (peace be upon him) was a jew then that rulling was also for jesus (peace be upon him) and...... the followers of jesus (peace be upon him) should also stick to that rulling.

Jesus was a Jew and therefore abided by the rules. His disciples (and I suspect most of His followers) were also Jews, and would have followed Jewish dietary laws.

i would like to know if there is one rulling for jesus (peace be upon him) and a differnt rulling for his followers?

No they followed the same rules.

[Italianguy]

i would appreciate if you could answer these questions thank you.

so that rulling is only for the jews and not for the followers of jesus (peace be upon him)?

was jesus (peace be upon him) a jew?

so if jesus (peace be upon him) was a jew then that rulling was also for jesus (peace be upon him) and...... the followers of jesus (peace be upon him) should also stick to that rulling.

i would like to know if there is one rulling for jesus (peace be upon him) and a differnt rulling for his followers?

No their is no distinction, we must try (emphasis on try) to be as Christ like as possible. We wouldn't have the Old Testament if it were cancelled out by the comming of the Messiah. We are not to sacrifice aything for repentence anymore, Because Crist the Lamb was the last sacrifice by God. Thus the reason He is called the sacrificial lamb, and addresses this in the Bible. But it is not an excuse to cancell out what was commanded of us. There were many things that changed after Jesus was here, as He commanded. But there are certian things tha we are to stick to that are not subject to interpretation nor opinion.......but....i lean more towards the more Orthodox veiws anyway.

[Grace Seeker]

hello all. am not here to turn this thread into a debate just want to ask 2 questions which i need some answers for and then the thread can simply be closed.

• i would like to know if interest (usary) is forbiden in christianity
• and if eating pig is forbidden

if they are forbiden can u tell where it says so from the king james version of the bible. if its not forbiden then no problem we just leave it there.

thank you all

No, neither of these are forbidden to Christians. Regarding Italianguy's several responses, and still with respect to him as a brother in Christ, I believe he has misapplied and misunderstood the scriptures in arriving at the conclusions he has expressed here.

[Italianguy]

No, neither of these are forbidden to Christians. Regarding Italianguy's several responses, and still with respect to him as a brother in Christ, I believe he has misapplied and misunderstood the scriptures in arriving at the conclusions he has expressed here.

Helllllllloooooooooo GraceSeeker!!:D

Thats cool, I canot condem nor relinquish ones opinion on these matters. I humbley appologise if i came across a little rudeimsad I need to understand that I do lean more to the Orthodox sect of faith, although i am considered protestant. And should not tell you you ae wrong on what you believe. My decision to follow these rules are my choice.......I still love all my Christian bro's and sis's here:D:D May we see each other at the gates.Amen

[mohammed_alim]

i never heard of "christian jews" what is the religion of a "christian jew"? i know theres jews and there are christians. but anyway nevermind... pork was forbidden for jesus (peace be upon him) because he was a jew and he abided by the rules so did his followers.

so why is it not obligatory for now a day followers of jesus (peace be upon him) to also abide by the rules? because it just makes sence jesus (peace be upon him) and his followers didnt eat pork then u guys now adays should also not eat prok.

pork was forbiden for jesus (peace be upon him).
the bible says not to eat it as stated earlier on.
u say that rule is for jews ok but (jesus peace be upon him) was a jew his follwers at the time didint also eat pork...... u as followers now should also not eat it too. beacuse its forbidden

[Grace Seeker]

so why is it not obligatory for now a day followers of jesus (peace be upon him) to also abide by the rules? because it just makes sence jesus (peace be upon him) and his followers didnt eat pork then u guys now adays should also not eat prok.

The forbidding of pork was a part of the old covenant that God made with the nation of Israel, and thus is required of all Jews. But, there is no requirement for Christians to become Jews. Jesus himself established a new covenant. That covenant is different than the one that God made with the Jews through Moses. Very few of the old covenant's Levitical laws (such as the prohibition against eating pork) are included in the new covenant. And since one does not have to become a Jew or a participant of the old covenant to be part of the new covenant or a follower of Jesus, the rules of the old covenant simply do not apply to the members of the new covenant, for the two covenants (though both being covenants with God) are as much two different things with different commands and different rewards as are apples and oranges (though both fruit) different from one another.

[Grace Seeker]

i never heard of "christian jews" what is the religion of a "christian jew"? i know theres jews and there are christians.

There are a few, a very few, Jews who have recognized Jesus to be the Messiah. These individuals understand themselves to be as Jewish now as they have ever been, but they also believe Jesus to be God's promised Messiah. They see themselves as participants in both the old covenant (hence being bound by the Levitical rules) and the new covenant (hence receiving the promise of new life in Jesus). They go by a variety of different names (Jews of Jesus, Messianic Jews, Followers of Yeshua). Some of them participate fully in Jewish synagouge life even as they, others have immersed themselves in modern church life retaining only their Jewish ethnicity but none of the religious practices, and others still feel a need to make a new way not feeling completely comfortable in either church nor synagogue.

I have a good friend who doesn't use any of these titles. She simple considers herself a Jewish Christian (the way that one might consider themselves an Irish Catholic). Her husband is even a Christian pastor. But every Friday night she lights the candles for Shavvoth, they don't eat pork, the sweep the house clean for passover, and they also attend church every Sunday, they put up a Christmas tree, they worship Jesus as Lord the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel and all the peoples of the earth.

[Italianguy]

If you consider yourself a Christian than there should be no distinction, Being a Christian ahould hold no other titles to it. .....just my opinion:D

But there are some other groups that don't call them selves Christians, but follow Christ as their Messiah, or savior.

Just google these and you will find them.(I don't think i am allowed to post links to these on this site?)

Titles:

"Jews for Jesus"

"Muslims for Jesus"

[Rabi Mansur]

so why is it not obligatory for now a day followers of jesus (peace be upon him) to also abide by the rules? because it just makes sence jesus (peace be upon him) and his followers didnt eat pork then u guys now adays should also not eat prok.

pork was forbiden for jesus (peace be upon him).
the bible says not to eat it as stated earlier on.
u say that rule is for jews ok but (jesus peace be upon him) was a jew his follwers at the time didint also eat pork...... u as followers now should also not eat it too. beacuse its forbidden

These things were debated right after the death of Jesus. If you read the book of Acts in the New Testament you will find that there was a dispute about how much of the Law the Christians would have to keep. The Gentile Christians, who were not Jews, were told that they did not have to be circumcised or follow the whole law. The church leaders basically came up with a compromise:

Acts 15

24"Since we have heard that (BB)some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have (BC)disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,

25(BD)it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26men who have (BE)risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27"Therefore we have sent (BF)Judas and (BG)Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.

28"For (BH)it seemed good to (BI)the Holy Spirit and to (BJ)us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:

29that you abstain from (BK)things sacrificed to idols and from (BL)blood and from (BM)things strangled and from (BN)fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

30So when they were sent away, (BO)they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.

31When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.

If you read the whole chapter it makes more sense. But the bottom line was that the new Gentile converts did not have to follow the Law and were not required to be circumcised. The were required to not eat meat sacrificed to idols and refrain from things strangled and from fornication. They were not required to follow the kosher dietary laws.

Hope this helps.

:wa:

[جوري]

These things were debated right after the death of Jesus. If you read the book of Acts in the New Testament you will find that there was a dispute about how much of the Law the Christians would have to keep. The Gentile Christians, who were not Jews, were told that they did not have to be circumcised or follow the whole law. The church leaders basically came up with a compromise:

Acts 15


If you read the whole chapter it makes more sense. But the bottom line was that the new Gentile converts did not have to follow the Law and were not required to be circumcised. The were required to not eat meat sacrificed to idols and refrain from things strangled and from fornication. They were not required to follow the kosher dietary laws.

Hope this helps.

:wa:

I don't believe that christianity was meant for the 'gentiles' anyway and I think that is part of its mess, it makes no sense to me that god would change his mind, and it makes less sense, that god would now be a son and a spirit, so what can I say?.. That is just my view on the matter...

New International Version (©1984)
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."New Living Translation (©2007)
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

[Rabi Mansur]

And that is why the apostle Paul is frequently called the apostle to the Gentiles. In the Christian view, Jesus (PBUH) was sent to the lost sheep of Israel and Paul was sent to the Gentiles.

I don't believe that christianity was meant for the 'gentiles' anyway and I think that is part of its mess, it makes no sense to me that god would change his mind, and it makes less sense, that god would now be a son and a spirit, so what can I say?.. That is just my view on the matter...

If you don't believe that Christianity was meant for the Gentiles, I assume, then, that you are saying that Muhammad's (PBUH) message was the one for the Gentiles? (Since it was addressed to all mankind.) I'm just trying to understand your point...



:wa:

[جوري]

And that is why the apostle Paul is frequently called the apostle to the Gentiles. In the Christian view, Jesus (PBUH) was sent to the lost sheep of Israel and Paul was sent to the Gentiles.




If you don't believe that Christianity was meant for the Gentiles, I assume, then, that you are saying that Muhammad's (PBUH) message was the one for the Gentiles? (Since it was addressed to all mankind.) I'm just trying to understand your point...



:wa:

:sl:

yes, That is the universal message for all man-kind and the only one that Allah swt promised to safeguard its scriptures from corruption-- you need to know that I believe that most people received a messenger (otherwise their trials would be on the day of judgment)

:wa:

[bibleblevr]

hello all. am not here to turn this thread into a debate just want to ask 2 questions which i need some answers for and then the thread can simply be closed.

• i would like to know if interest (usary) is forbiden in christianity
• and if eating pig is forbidden

if they are forbiden can u tell where it says so from the king james version of the bible. if its not forbiden then no problem we just leave it there.

thank you all

No these things are not forbidden. They were forbidden in the Jewish law, But Christians are not under the Mosaic law anymore:
Galatians 3:24:
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Jesus fulfilled the law and we are in a sense out of school. We do however need to examine what each law was trying to teach us. Laws about usury were to prevent people taking advantage of each other. laws on pork were to keep us health, because pigs at that time where dangerous to eat. This teaches us to respect our bodies and care for them.

Here it is in the jewish law:

Leviticus 11:7-8
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.
Deuteronomy 14:8
And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
Isaiah 65:3-4
A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;
Isaiah 66:16-17
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

laws on usury can be found here: Exodus 22:25-27, Leviticus 25:36-37 and Deuteronomy 23:20-21.

God bless

[Italianguy]

No these things are not forbidden. They were forbidden in the Jewish law, But Christians are not under the Mosaic law anymore:
Galatians 3:24:
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Jesus fulfilled the law and we are in a sense out of school. We do however need to examine what each law was trying to teach us. Laws about usury were to prevent people taking advantage of each other. laws on pork were to keep us health, because pigs at that time where dangerous to eat. This teaches us to respect our bodies and care for them.

Here it is in the jewish law:

Leviticus 11:7-8
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.
Deuteronomy 14:8
And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
Isaiah 65:3-4
A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;
Isaiah 66:16-17
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

laws on usury can be found here: Exodus 22:25-27, Leviticus 25:36-37 and Deuteronomy 23:20-21.

God bless

hmmmmmmmm:hmm:

[Ramadhan]

In summary, there are two possibilities:

1. God in the bible has severe split/multiple personalities

OR

2. The bible has been changed/corrupted/added/removed by unknown authors/parishees/priests etc.

take your pick.

[Italianguy]

In summary, there are two possibilities:

1. God in the bible has severe split/multiple personalities

OR

2. The bible has been changed/corrupted/added/removed by unknown authors/parishees/priests etc.

take your pick.

Those aren't the only 2 options. Why would you say that? They have televised the same thing about Islam and the Qur'an. Watch "inside the Qur'an" It is scholary Muslims who say the Qur'an has been changed, and Muslims have confirmed this, as well as liquidity in the Hadiths. (not my words bro).

There are plenty of reasons

Catholics have most of it right, until....they think a man, priest can forgive your sins(well if thats true, Then Jesus crucifixtion was for nothing) so i can't follow Catholicism anymore.

Eastern Orthodox ^ditto. with some extras.

And then protestants, (which I am.....that may change) We seem to have changed and or interpreted what the Bible says in order to make it easier to follow Christ....because truthfully, we could never do it, not excluding myself! Protestants also seem to think they can do anything they want, then just pray for forgiveness as well they speak all the time of hell, but all think they are going to heaven no matter what....so why even care if there is a hell, not like their going anyway??

Just my oppinion anyway. God bless all. And thank you for all of my Christian friends here replying as well, my reponses shouldn't be the only ones veiwed.

So i don't believe the Bible is corrrupt at all....the people who read it and preach wrong are! Same goes for your Qur'an. Not everyone in high status among our faiths are right, we just believe them instead of finding out for our selves.

Christians....What do you think about what Pat robertson said about the Haitians???? People like him are making us look really badddddddd:heated:

[جوري]

Those aren't the only 2 options. Why would you say that? They have televised the same thing about Islam and the Qur'an. Watch "inside the Qur'an" It is scholary Muslims who say the Qur'an has been changed, and Muslims have confirmed this, as well as liquidity in the Hadiths. (not my words bro).

No Muslim scholar or non-scholar who is Muslim would say the Quran has been changed..if you have different copies then produce them, before writing out of whims or show us the 'televised' scholars so we'd examine their scholarship!

13: 9 Behold, it is We Ourselves who have bestowed from on high, step by step, this reminder:9 and, behold, it is We who shall truly guard it [from all corruption].10

all the best

[Italianguy]

No Muslim scholar or non-scholar who is Muslim would say the Quran has been changed..if you have different copies then produce them, before writing out of whims or show us the 'televised' scholars so we'd examine their scholarship!

13: 9 Behold, it is We Ourselves who have bestowed from on high, step by step, this reminder:9 and, behold, it is We who shall truly guard it [from all corruption].10

all the best

I said that wasn't my opinion.

Watch the tv special I am sure it is on dvd or youtube? I saw it on tv. Even Zainab was watching it at the same time....although she wasn't happy with those veiws in it.

I understand what you are trying to say, again , not my veiw of it. Thats why I am here. To learn from people like you. You have helped me exponentialy and I continue to learn from all here.

I was just trying to find the verse in the Qur'an you have listed. I can't find it? I have been reading it for some time now....Amazing to say the least.

And they may have spelled it differently on the show. It may have been "Inside the Koran" My copy says "Qur'an" on the front? Is there a difference?

I was told i can find a free copy? A freind of mine wants to study it as well. I payed $40 for mine, but he doesn't have allot of money. How would he go about doing that? Or is that just for reverts?

God bless.

[Italianguy]

I like sis Skye....she keeps me on my toes.

[جوري]

I said that wasn't my opinion.

Watch the tv special I am sure it is on dvd or youtube? I saw it on tv. Even Zainab was watching it at the same time....although she wasn't happy with those veiws in it.

I understand what you are trying to say, again , not my veiw of it. Thats why I am here. To learn from people like you. You have helped me exponentialy and I continue to learn from all here.

I was just trying to find the verse in the Qur'an you have listed. I can't find it? I have been reading it for some time now....Amazing to say the least.

And they may have spelled it differently on the show. It may have been "Inside the Koran" My copy says "Qur'an" on the front? Is there a difference?

I was told i can find a free copy? A freind of mine wants to study it as well. I payed $40 for mine, but he doesn't have allot of money. How would he go about doing that? Or is that just for reverts?

God bless.

it is your opinion, and I am starting to think that Zainab might be a name for your pet cat.
bring me the TV show let't all have a look at it here.. (I say that in a non-hostile manner)
Thanks!

all the best

[Italianguy]

it is your opinion, and I am starting to think that Zainab might be a name for your pet cat.
bring me the TV show let't all have a look at it here.. (I say that in a non-hostile manner)
Thanks!

all the best

Why would you say thats my opinion? I just said it wasn't. If you believe it, I have to as well until proven otherwise....correct?

I will do my best to provide some kind of link. I have a hard time knowing how to search for that stuff....besides googleing.

And Zainab is not a pet cat:hmm: She is a good woman, friend of my wife and famly friend. And a devout Muslim. You shouldn't call her names Skye, I have not done so to you nor anyone else here.

Do you say such things to get a rise out of me? To get me to show hostility? I will not do so.

God bless.

[جوري]

Why would you say thats my opinion? I just said it wasn't. If you believe it, I have to as well until proven otherwise....correct?

I will do my best to provide some kind of link. I have a hard time knowing how to search for that stuff....besides googleing.

And Zainab is not a pet cat:hmm: She is a good woman, friend of my wife and famly friend. And a devout Muslim. You shouldn't call her names Skye, I have not done so to you nor anyone else here.

Do you say such things to get a rise out of me? To get me to show hostility? I will not do so.

God bless.

because you haven't provided me with the evidence from the TV of said 'Islamic scholars' all the talking in the world won't change that, never has, never will. Plato and voltaire and abe lincoln could all come back from the great beyond and plead your case with all the eloquence that humankind has ever mustered, but all the talking still doesn't translate to any evidence from TV with Muslim scholars..

like the last time when you said that face wash is haram and didn't want to link us to the website because well the guy who provided the 'evidence' was banned even from the other forum..

I didn't even go by previous history, just what I know of the Quran, which I have studied cover to cover!

so we can beat around the bush and about zainab and your wife or you can bring me the piece that you saw on TV with Muslim scholars to show us where the Quran has changed!

all the best

[Italianguy]

because you haven't provided me with the evidence from the TV of said 'Islamic scholars' all the talking in the world won't change that, never has, never will. Plato and voltaire and abe lincoln could all come back from the great beyond and plead your case with all the eloquence that humankind has ever mustered, but all the talking still doesn't translate to any evidence from TV with Muslim scholars..

like the last time when you said that face wash is haram and didn't want to link us to the website because well the guy who provided the 'evidence' was banned even from the other forum..

I didn't even go by previous history, just what I know of the Quran, which I have studied cover to cover!

so we can beat around the bush and about zainab and your wife or you can bring me the piece that you saw on TV with Muslim scholars to show us where the Quran has changed!

all the best

Actually this time I think I will end it here(as I was told to). Many others here said they saw it was on, at the same time I was watching so maybe they would be able to provide the link. Thanks for all of your help. God bless.:D

[جوري]

Actually this time I think I will end it here(as I was told to). Many others here said they saw it was on, at the same time I was watching so maybe they would be able to provide the link. Thanks for all of your help. God bless.:D

oh? who are the 'many others?' I can believe that it will end here, as you will extricate yourself from the topic for not being able to back it up, but not because there is any semblance of truth in what you have written!--

all the best

[Italianguy]

oh? who are the 'many others?' I can believe that it will end here, as you will extricate yourself from the topic for not being able to back it up, but not because there is any semblance of truth in what you have written!--

all the best

Good night Skye. God be with you.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

.. It is scholary Muslims who say the Qur'an has been changed, and Muslims have confirmed this,

if anyone believes that Quran has been changed , then s/he is not a Muslim.
Because God says in Quran :

Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).

( سورة الحجر , Al-Hijr, Chapter #15, Verse #9)

Memorizing is one of the ways how Quran was preserved as it was revealed to the last Prophet pbuh. Millions memorized Quran and each adult Muslim know and recite several verses from memory in daily prayers. If anyone wants to change any single word from Quran , Qurane Hafizz ( those who have Quran in memory ) will identify the changes immideatley.

For free Quran and CD , u may write here .

Innovative Audio Insights
P.0. Box 23683 Alexandria, VA 22304


http://www.islamtomorrow.com/order/

[Italianguy]

Salaam/Peace



if anyone believes that Quran has been changed , then s/he is not a Muslim.
Because God says in Quran :

Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).

( سورة الحجر , Al-Hijr, Chapter #15, Verse #9)

Memorizing is one of the ways how Quran was preserved as it was revealed to the last Prophet pbuh. Millions memorized Quran and each adult Muslim know and recite several verses from memory in daily prayers. If anyone wants to change any single word from Quran , Qurane Hafizz ( those who have Quran in memory ) will identify the changes immideatley.

For free Quran and CD , u may write here .

Innovative Audio Insights
P.0. Box 23683 Alexandria, VA 22304


http://www.islamtomorrow.com/order/

Well, thank you for the info and the link:D

And thanks for straightening that out for me.:D

God be with you.

[Supreme]

I think what Italianguy means is that there were once different version of the Quran, until it was compiled by Uthman and the others destroyed. Italiaguy, do you concede that pork and usury are indeed not forbidden to Christians?

[Grace Seeker]

13: 9 Behold, it is We Ourselves who have bestowed from on high, step by step, this reminder:9 and, behold, it is We who shall truly guard it [from all corruption].

all the best

That is like a Christian quoting 2 Timothy 3:16-17 -- "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Such verses, be they from the Qur'an or the Bible embolden those who already believe the respective scritpures, but they don't speak to unbelievers in the slightest.

[جوري]

That is like a Christian quoting 2 Timothy 3:16-17 -- "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Such verses, be they from the Qur'an or the Bible embolden those who already believe the respective scritpures, but they don't speak to unbelievers in the slightest.

ah, but the difference is, history and the copies we have of the Quran are a testament to that safeguarding-- whereas with Christianity you can't get passages from the book to reconcile with each other let alone a protestant book to agree with a coptic one. and are a compilation of words hundreds of years after the fact of the matter from unknown authors! Therein lies the difference..

all the best

[جوري]

I think what Italianguy means is that there were once different version of the Quran, until it was compiled by Uthman and the others destroyed. Italiaguy, do you concede that pork and usury are indeed not forbidden to Christians?

there were 'no' different versions of the Quran. the Quran was written in scrolls and in people's memories all along, Uthman (RA) compiled it into four books to be sent to different regions for the purposes of da3wa..

if you want to engage this topic, I suggest you join the 25 page thread, I am not going to whittle myself away over a topic that is discussed in more than one place just to appease the christian desire that all books be lowered down to one common denominator! ..

all the best

[Supreme]

there were 'no' different versions of the Quran. the Quran was written in scrolls and in people's memories all along, Uthman (RA) compiled it into four books to be sent to different regions for the purposes of da3wa..

if you want to engage this topic, I suggest you join the 25 page thread, I am not going to whittle myself away over a topic that is discussed in more than one place just to appease the christian desire that all books be lowered down to one common denominator! ..

all the best

I apologise, you seem to have thought my response was directed at you. Rather, it was addressed at Italianguy. The fact that I mentioned 'Italianguy' twice in my post is a hint to the slower amongst you!

[جوري]

I apologise, you seem to have thought my response was directed at you. Rather, it was addressed at Italianguy. The fact that I mentioned 'Italianguy' twice in my post is a hint to the slower amongst you!

and I am correcting the views of what you deemed

I think what Italianguy means

seeing that they are incorrect!

all the best!

[Grace Seeker]

I don't believe that christianity was meant for the 'gentiles' anyway and I think that is part of its mess, it makes no sense to me that god would change his mind, and it makes less sense, that god would now be a son and a spirit, so what can I say?.. That is just my view on the matter...

I understand that this is what you believe. It may even be what is taught in Islam. But it is not what is actually taught in the Bible.

You see, though many Muslims like to refer to the verse where Jesus says, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24), that is not the end of the story. It is true that Jesus was sent to Israel, for he came as the Jewish Messiah. But it not true that his followers were to be similarly so restricted.

1) First, even Jesus himself ministered to more than just the people of Israel. In this very story itself, Jesus goes on to minister to the Canaanite woman:

Matthew 15

21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Please note, that this entire event takes place while Jesus is in "the region of Tyre and Sidon." These are Phoenician cities along the coast north of (i.e., outside of) Israel. And the conclusion of the story shows Jesus granting the request of this Canaanite (i.e., non-Jewish) woman. There are many other stories of Jesus engaged in ministry outside of Israel and with Gentiles, but to use this single verse to declare that Jesus is exlcusively ministering to the Jews and brings a message for them alone is to glaring miss the context that the whole event takes place outside of Israel and in the midst of Jesus ministering to a non-Jew.



2) Second, Jesus specifically directs his disciples to be in ministry and making disciples among not just Jews but all people:

Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Acts 1
7He [Jesus] said to them [the disciples]: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Thus, even from an understanding that Jesus generally (though not exclusively) restricted his ministry and message to that of the Jews, he does not so do with his disciples. Rather, he expressly sends them out -- to make disciples of all nations (the Greek behind that term refers to all ethnicities). Jesus tells his disciples that are to be his witness, taking his message, not only to the Jewish world, but globally.



3) I believe you err when you see this as God changing his mind. For Israel's role was never to be God's only people. They were chosen for a purpose, and God makes that clear to them in the words of the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 51:4
"Listen to me, my people; hear me, my nation: The law will go out from me; my justice will become a light to the nations.

Isaiah 60:3
Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn.

The Jews were to live in covenant with God and become a beacon to other peoples so that they too would be drawn into relationship with the one God. The nation of Israel may have failed with that respect, the the Jewish Messiah, Jesus, did not. And, to this very day, he continues to "draw all men" (John 12:32), not just Jews but also non-Jews (i.e., Gentiles), to himself.

[Danah]

hello all. am not here to turn this thread into a debate just want to ask 2 questions which i need some answers for and then the thread can simply be closed.

• i would like to know if interest (usary) is forbiden in christianity
• and if eating pig is forbidden

if they are forbiden can u tell where it says so from the king james version of the bible. if its not forbiden then no problem we just leave it there.

thank you all

:sl:

An interesting video you may or your friend may like to watch about pork from Christians view:

Media Tags are no longer supported

:wa:

[جوري]

I understand that this is what you believe. It may even be what is taught in Islam. But it is not what is actually taught in the Bible.
.

That is what I know to be true.. how much of your bible are scribal addendums? did the story of Mary Magdalene even take place?

Media Tags are no longer supported

I can't hold any content in your bible as true given the disparity in the book itself, let alone recorded history and logic..


all the best

[Supreme]

:sl:

An interesting video you may or your friend may like to watch about pork from Christians view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJrJkFBEt_c

:wa:

The conclusion one can draw from such a video is not Christianity's view, but the view of some Christians. Christianity is far too diverse to say for certain that two Christians views are the same, but seeing as the Catholic Church- the largest denomination of Christianity with a billion adherents- and Eastern Orthodoxy with 150 million adherents do not prohibit pork, it is safe to assume that the general majority of Christians do not have a problem.

[tango92]

^yh its a shame, God doesnt really want to guide you lot does he?

[Grace Seeker]

:sl:

An interesting video you may or your friend may like to watch about pork from Christians view:

And again, as with Italian Guy, I'm not going to say that this person isn't a Christian. But I do question Joel Osteen's interpretation of the scriptures (BTW, not just on this point but many others that he preaches, such as his prosperity gospel). However, I will certainly recognize that these two gentlemen are not alone in their view. There are many others who would agree with them, but they are in the minority. And the reason they are has nothing to do with the rest of Christianity being in rebellion against God and God's laws, but rather an understanding that those passages to which they refered do not apply universally, not now, not ever. They apply only to the people of the nation of Israel, for they are part of God's covenant with them as Jews. We who are gentiles are connected with God in a different covenant that does not include the same dietary (and many other) laws that were part of the covenant God made with the nation of Israel.


BTW, what is the Islamic ruling with regard to the eating of shellfish? As Osteen points out, that too is outlawed for Jews. If Muslim hold that Jews have this right, wouldn't Muslims be restricted from eating not just pork but any of the other things that Jews were told not to eat?

[Grace Seeker]

I can't hold any content in your bible as true given the disparity in the book itself, let alone recorded history and logic..


all the best

Then you can't hold as true that Jesus ever said that he came only to the lost sheep of Israel either. You just like to believe it because it fits with your own worldview. And that's all well and good, but if you are going to assert as factual that Jesus said that line, then please remember to keep that assertion within context, and that context reveals that it isn't as exclusive of an assertion as you pretend it to be.

[جوري]

Then you can't hold as true that Jesus ever said that he came only to the lost sheep of Israel either. You just like to believe it because it fits with your own worldview. And that's all well and good, but if you are going to assert as factual that Jesus said that line, then please remember to keep that assertion within context, and that context reveals that it isn't as exclusive of an assertion as you pretend it to be.

Only contents that agree with Islamic principles.. I'll try to narrow the confidence interval the next time!

all the best

[Supreme]

^yh its a shame, God doesnt really want to guide you lot does he?

Only Protestants;D

[mohammed_alim]

some one who is a christian ovbiously will want to follow what jesus (peace be upon him) did they would would want to be like him becuase he is a excellent example on how to lead ones life. so jesus (peace be uon him) did not eat pork because it is a unclean animal. if there was nothing wrong with eating pig then he wud have eaten it but the main point is he diidnt. as followers of jesus peace be upon him. you should stick to what jesus peace be upon him did and stay away from things he stayed away from because he is an example for people to follow?

[Italianguy]

I think what Italianguy means is that there were once different version of the Quran, until it was compiled by Uthman and the others destroyed. Italiaguy, do you concede that pork and usury are indeed not forbidden to Christians?

Well, I didn't mean to point out any kind of veiw on the Qur'an. I amy have...sorry. Typing some of these replys on an iphone can be tough to get a question across as many want it.

I can say that for some Christians it's ok to eat it. Not all agree. as you said. I chose to do so on my own accord.. ...but if another Christian chooses to eat it who am I to judge? I wouldn't think anything different of that person. It's my choice.

God be with you Supreme!

sorry buddy, I am leaving to go to New York in like 30 minutes so i won't be able to explain myself more for a couple of days. God bless.

[sister herb]

Have a safe travel to New York then (sorry this is off topic comment).

Thanks to all of you about this interesting discussion.

[Italianguy]

Have a safe travel to New York then (sorry this is off topic comment).

Thanks to all of you about this interesting discussion.

Thank you.:D Ciao!

[glo]

^yh its a shame, God doesnt really want to guide you lot does he?

What makes you think that God doesn't guide us??
Of course he guides us all the time - as long as we open our hearts to him!

I think what you mean is that the Bible doesn't seem to be specific, explicit and clear enough for you to consider it as a 'guide book'. Perhaps that's what you have come to expect the Qu'ran to be: wholly specific, explicit and clear (I personally doubt that it is entirely so ... but that's for another discussion ...)

I agree that there is much in the Bible which is difficult to understand or is confusing or seems contradictory.
But strangely, those are still things which I believe are there to guide us!

The Bible is much more than just an instruction book - it requires us to engage with it, study it, ponder and discuss it, pray about it, question it and be challenged by it!

I love to watch and listen to Christians, when they discuss their understanding of the Bible - even if they have different understandings and interpretations of certain Bible passages.
Ever since the beginning (see Book of Acts) followers of Christ have pondered, discussed and tried to agree on how best to implement Christ's teachings in every new situation/age/culture/circumstance ...
I believe that is part of engaging with God and being in relationship with him!

Not a day goes by when Biblical teachings don't challenge me to the core!

I certainly do feel God's guidance - directly through his Spirit within me, but also through reading the Bible - through the new insights I gain, but also through the things 'I don't yet get'.
May God be patient with me and continue to guide me.

I feel truly blessed to have been invited on this wonderful journey with God! :statisfie

[Danah]

BTW, what is the Islamic ruling with regard to the eating of shellfish? As Osteen points out, that too is outlawed for Jews. If Muslim hold that Jews have this right, wouldn't Muslims be restricted from eating not just pork but any of the other things that Jews were told not to eat?

I dont know about Jews and shellfish but here what Islam said:

Are shellfish and shrimp halal to eat?
Are all birds halal to eat?


Anything of seafood is halal. As the Quran says in surah number 5, verse 96, "To hunt and to eat the fish of the sea is made lawful for you." In surah 16, verse 14, "And He it is who has constrained the sea to be of service that you eat fresh meat from thence."

Likewise, all the birds are edible, especially Malik's opinion states that every animal except pork could be edible. Some school's object birds or animals that are meat-eaters. Those birds, like falcon or crow, could be makruh but not haram.


Source

[Supreme]

some one who is a christian ovbiously will want to follow what jesus (peace be upon him) did they would would want to be like him becuase he is a excellent example on how to lead ones life. so jesus (peace be uon him) did not eat pork because it is a unclean animal. if there was nothing wrong with eating pig then he wud have eaten it but the main point is he diidnt. as followers of jesus peace be upon him. you should stick to what jesus peace be upon him did and stay away from things he stayed away from because he is an example for people to follow?

Christians don't aspire to be like Jesus, it's completely impossible. We know we can't die on crosses and be resurrected three days later or go into the desert for forty days and forty nights in fast. We do, however, aspire to obey the teachings of Jesus. Seeing as He never mentioned anything about the prohibition of pork- if anything, He seems to have sanctioned it by intelligently pointing out that what goes into a man does not make him impure- then Christians should not have anything against it.

[mohammed_alim]

ovibously you cant be like him, bt his ur role model. giving up pork is not exactly very hard... its gets so confusing and differnt opinions r given but 1 has to be the right and safe way and 1 has to be the rong way. i would much rather be on the safe side.

[Grace Seeker]

if there was nothing wrong with eating pig then he wud have eaten it but the main point is he diidnt. as followers of jesus peace be upon him. you should stick to what jesus peace be upon him did and stay away from things he stayed away from because he is an example for people to follow?

I completely disagree. And I suspect that if you were to think this through at all levels you would disagree with this part of your post as well.


First, we know that God made everything and that everything that God made was good. Pigs are declared to be ritually unclean. But this does not mean that they are "dirty". If we're simply talking about dirt, chickens are among the dirtiest animals I know. Have you ever harvested a fresh warm egg covered with excrement? I'm not trying to be crude, but pigs are not really any dirtier than many other animals. Lots of animals are scavengers, including most all carnivores who will gladly take a found free meal rather than have to hunt it down for themselves.

Second, the reason that Jesus didn't eat pork was because it was because it was forbidden by terms of the covenant between God and Israel, and Jesus was a member of that covenant community. To impose those standards on people outside of that covenant is not an act of a just God.

Third, there are many other things that Jesus also didn't do that I don't see anyone arguing for. If the argument that Jesus didn't do it so no one else should was really valid then why not make the same point about them? You don't because that isn't really what you want, what you want is for non-Muslims to conform to a Muslim lifestlye. I can understand that. But if you are going to make your argument the other way that we should all be conformed to Jesus' lifestyle, then I'm going to expect to see Muslims refrain from not only eating pork, but also camel, rabbit, shrimp, lobster, clams, oysters, or catfish. And if you're going to make Jesus the pattern for your life, then why don't Muslims worship YAHWEH as Jesus did?

Fourth the argument that one should not do the things that one's prophet didn't do, if extended to Muslims, would prevent Muslims from driving automobiles or flying in airplanes. Please, don't give me the line that they weren't invented then. Since Muhammad didn't invent them, they should not have been invented either. Now, you probably think that this is a pretty dumb argument, and I agree. But it isn't mine. It is yours: "you should stick to what jesus [or Muhammed] peace be upon him did and stay away from things he stayed away from because he is an example for people to follow."

So, let's be done with these fallacious arguments please, and just see what God says with regard to what foods Gentiles are to avoid, and the answer is that we are told that "everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial." So, we might want to avoid pork for health reasons, but eating it would only be a violation of common sense, not God's command to us.

[Supreme]

ovibously you cant be like him, bt his ur role model. giving up pork is not exactly very hard... its gets so confusing and differnt opinions r given but 1 has to be the right and safe way and 1 has to be the rong way. i would much rather be on the safe side.

Giving up a type of food, especially a tasty type of food, is always hard. I'm hardly going to give up some food when it is unnecessary.

[mohammed_alim]

ok kwl..its been a interesting disscussion, am sorry if i offended anyone. n thank you, to every1 who posted.

[Italianguy]

ok kwl..its been a interesting disscussion, am sorry if i offended n thank you, to every1 who posted.

No offense taken:D Glad we could help you.........or confuse;D

God be with you bro!

[Italianguy]

What makes you think that God doesn't guide us??
Of course he guides us all the time - as long as we open our hearts to him!

I think what you mean is that the Bible doesn't seem to be specific, explicit and clear enough for you to consider it as a 'guide book'. Perhaps that's what you have come to expect the Qu'ran to be: wholly specific, explicit and clear (I personally doubt that it is entirely so ... but that's for another discussion ...)

I agree that there is much in the Bible which is difficult to understand or is confusing or seems contradictory.
But strangely, those are still things which I believe are there to guide us!

The Bible is much more than just an instruction book - it requires us to engage with it, study it, ponder and discuss it, pray about it, question it and be challenged by it!

I love to watch and listen to Christians, when they discuss their understanding of the Bible - even if they have different understandings and interpretations of certain Bible passages.
Ever since the beginning (see Book of Acts) followers of Christ have pondered, discussed and tried to agree on how best to implement Christ's teachings in every new situation/age/culture/circumstance ...
I believe that is part of engaging with God and being in relationship with him!

Not a day goes by when Biblical teachings don't challenge me to the core!

I certainly do feel God's guidance - directly through his Spirit within me, but also through reading the Bible - through the new insights I gain, but also through the things 'I don't yet get'.
May God be patient with me and continue to guide me.

I feel truly blessed to have been invited on this wonderful journey with God! :statisfie

Amen to that! If we are not challenged everyday, we are not trying! Love your reply. God bless you sister!:D

[glo]

ok kwl..its been a interesting disscussion, am sorry if i offended anyone. n thank you, to every1 who posted.

Perhaps there is a lesson here: if you ask Christians a question, you'll get more answers than you bargained for! :D

Don't worry, Mohammed, threads in this forum have tendency to go on for a long while, and sometimes go off tangent too ... unless the mods intervene and put an end to it ...

[Asiyah3]

I have to say that I'm very confused^o)

:><: I'll edit this soon and post some "comments"/questions

[Asiyah3]

Start reading your Bibles for yourselves(Christians)....try it, you will be amazed how much you and I are doing wrong. Do not interpret it to make it what you want. Interpret it to tell you how to be.

God bless.

Peace,

I like this attitude of yours, Italianguy

[Asiyah3]

(I personally doubt that it is entirely so ... but that's for another discussion ...)

I think you have heard about the sunnah of the Prophet (SAAS)?



(a bit off-topic, sorry)

[Italianguy]

Peace,

I like this attitude of yours, Italianguy

Thanks sis:statisfie