I hate religions

[Judas]

I know hate is a strong word, but I have always felt that "religious" people state they love their specific (of the multitudes of) religion they have decided to follow. Why then can't I state that I hate all of them? (rhetorically speaking of course)


Hi all :)
I'm new here

I signed up because well I feel I can be good contributor here.
For one, I can inform members who are still undecided (basically still ignorant) that of all the billions of totally unique and individual beliefs (including some of the biggies) that you don't actually need to be religious at all (Many forget this most important point, weird I know)

Anyway, please welcome me to the forum as one that will always speak truthfully and without bias. I only wish we could all be like that, but sadly many adopt the first religious way of life (usually due to fear of death or possibly even fictional power)

I hope that all will be as strong as me and rejoice in life, as this is all there is. Although our physical body will decay (after death) this may be our only hope of attaching a small part of ourselves to something else. Obviously that's not religious belief either, that's just a likely possibility (possibly most likely) tiny option we have.

My daughter asked me, not long ago, "What happens when we die?" I gave her the best possible similarity: Just like when a computer turns off, that's it, there is no more" Unless you feel that there's some type of computer heaven that all computers go to? No, I wouldn't think so either.

Generally people are afraid to die (I'm sure I will be as well, at the time)
Religions just try to smooth over that fear, but in reality its just a lie. Hence: I hate religions.

Thanks for having me onboard :)

[glo]

Welcome to LI, Judas. :welcome:

You will certainly add a new flavour to this forum! :D

Can I ask you if your dislike is of 'organised religions' in particular or of 'a belief in God' in general?
Have you ever had a faith in God and lost it, or have you never believed in God?
Have you had bad experiences with religion or religious people?

(A lot of questions, but you seem like somebody who is not scared of answering a question or two ... :D Only answer, if you feel comfortable to)

[Judas]

You're right, I tend to be TOO open at times. For that reason I always write the truth. As I wouldn't want to come across as confused.

Certainly the issue is "religion" Not exactly God
As I would think that inevitably as the centuries pass by, that we may inevitably find a new energy (possibly just physical, but still unknown in its absoluteness)

Anyway, therefore, I must stay open to the fact that there may be a higher energy. That we may or may not ever know of.

I must reply to this first reply of yours, as I'm concerned that others may reply as well (confusing my reply to you)

I have never had any bad experiences, and I am of sound mind.

[UmmSqueakster]

Welcome to the forum, although I don't think you're really unbiased. Your biases seem pretty darn clear from your opening statement ;)

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[glo]

So you believe that religion is almost certainly harmful, but leave the possibility that there may be some higher force?
Would you describe yourself as and anti-theistic agnostic?

Nice talking to you. Try to ease yourself into this forum and get a feel for just how outspoken is acceptable within the forum rules. :)

[Judas]

Strangely about a year or so ago I looked up all those words, and even the reverse of them (there can be slight differences either way)

"So you believe that religion is almost certainly harmful, but leave the possibility that there may be some higher force?"

Yes. Most certainly religion (in my view) is extremely harmful

[glo]

Can you think of any benefits one might gain from religion, or do you think they are entirely harmful?

[Raaina]

Welcome to IB Judas. :)

I look forward to reading your posts :D

[Judas]

I can think of one (ironically)

If someone ignorantly (I must be straight out here) was religious and was dieing. I might white lie to them and say they are going to their heaven (basically helping them to feel brave)

But again in reality, I would not believe this myself.
It would be similar to saying to someone they are going to be ok, when they may have an immediate life threatening issue (say like someone in an accident)

This may sound a bit two faced, but obviously I couldn't be cruel to them

[ardianto]

Welcome to IslamicBoard, Judas. :)

[glo]

Where are you from, Judas?
Am I correct in thinking that English is not your first language?

[UmmSqueakster]

Hmm, I hope that in your time here, you can come to learn that there are many beneficial things one can gain from religion, and that perhaps, your hate will be tempered. But please do be aware, that we here love Allah (swt), His Messenger (saws) and His deen (ie religion). And it's not very polite to come into someone's house and start trashing what they hold dear ;-)

[Judas]

I must say thank-you to all the welcomes here, as I have been replying when they do.

Yes I am from an English only speaking country. I have not hidden my IP (so the Mods will know where) But I would personally rather not be specific of my location

[Judas]

Sorry for double post:

And it's not very polite to come into someone's house and start trashing what they hold dear ;-)

Agreed, I am more for the ones that haven't fully decided ;)

[glo]

^
I was wondering if English is your first language.
Of course you don't have to disclose where you live.

Right, I have asked enough questions for now. Must go ... :)

[Judas]

Actually I must go too

But I will return to see further replies, and then try to reply to others questions.

[Yusuf Saeed]

Originally Posted by Judas
Most certainly religion (in my view) is extremely harmful

Hello! :)

This statement is not only very biased but it is also wrong. To prove otherwise I will list some beneficial things in religion.

So briefly, religion is good for:

1. Social reasons.

Religion makes life better in contrast to no religion as it has shown betterment in health, lower level of crimes and higher level of happiness.

Studies have shown that people of religion live longer with better physical health, there is less drug abuse amongst the youth and lower level of attempt of suicide.

Another good social thing coming from religion is that religious people are more charitable. Thisway they improve the whole society and help people in need.

About 60% of Australians are obese. Following religion prevents people from becoming obese as forbids being excessive in eating.

Islam forbids alcohol which benefits a lot to society. Even small amount of drinking increases the chance of cancer 70%. And do not only think about direct results alcohol causes but also consider all the broken families and children who've had to suffer because of having an alcoholic parent.

2. Moral and philosophical reasons.

Religion makes life better as God is the only objective source of morality.
Without God there is no objective distinction between good and bad.

God is All-knowing whereas people are not, hence it is rational and smarter to follow His rules.

3. Political reasons.

Religion, especially islam, makes life better because its economic model deals with poverty and creates financial stability better than any other model past or present.

Religion urges people to distribute and not compete all the time for material things, something we can see a lot mostly in non-religious societies.


Religion, especially islam, has benefits that no non-religious system can have. It doesn't just tell hwo to believe but also teaches how to live in this life in a good manner.


Take care!

[Rabi'ya]

welcome to LI

I can see you will start some interesting topics and will contribute well to the existing ones.

welcome aboard and look forward to seeing you around

[Asiyah3]

Welcome, great to have you here :D

Sorry, I have to go, I'll read your introduction later all

[Misz_Muslimah]

Welcome to the forum Judas..

[OurIslamic]

Welcome to IB Judas. I'm quite interested in what you have to say. Not that I believe it, but I like to see your reasoning. I'm at least glad that you don't insult Islam directly (even if you do to religion as a whole). I have one question though. What compelled you to join IslamicBoard?

[Judas]

I searched online for the seemingly best board of this culture, as I wanted to voice my opinion so as others may grow a little in their mind (religion is obviously so behind the times)

In response to Yusuf Saeed and his lies, well his ignorance to how religion "helps" us in 3 ways in society.
Religion is on the down in percentage, thank god (excuse the pun)
Certainly from being older I now have a clearer understanding and can conclude a few things without immaturity of young adolescents first starting out.

I find that religious followers are young in their mind. As if they have just not developed any further. That's the issue I suppose, that when you find your faith or belief or whatever it is that satisfies you, many then decide to stop growing. There is just no need to progress past your simple faith and learn any more.

Further I see that children of religious parents are forgotten and left to desperately take on religion themselves as desperate act of belonging again. Thus not growing from that time on.

Islam seems to be at the top of this issue even above the favorite Christianity. I think they all stopped quite a few thousand years ago (at least the newer religions have more knowledge but are obviously still wrong)

Looking directly at the 3 statements:
1. Social reasons.
Certainly this is the contrary. (as like all religions) Religious believers are the most anti-social group of the world, this shown in wars and words of hate against other social (religious) groups. Basically they generally don't like leaving their own sanctuary and "socialize" with others.
It's very sad that they miss out on the world and many societies that have different beliefs to their own.

2. Moral and philosophical reasons.
I don't understand this point. Morals? Like don't kill and things like that? No religious followers have little of real morals and accepting others.
Philosophy? Religion and philosophy should never be in the same sentence, they are both opposites.
In reality we are slowly but surely finding the truth, and as first thought, its not religious. As we inevitably find intelligent life on other planets (strange how religions feel that our small time on Earth is anyway related to another life being in a much older or more intelligent society, elsewhere.

Picture us as fish in a small bowl, there is much more out there that has yet to be seen. Thankfully I have the ability of allowing this further knowledge without being biased to a backward religion.

3. Political reasons.
Well this is a big topic (way too much to say) Lets just say that thankfully religion has been removed from our law books in most of the developed world countries. Imagine living under religious laws, now that was the dark ages. And who's in power anyway? Because I see no god on Earth, I just see Earth and far beyond into the universe and religion just has no place.
We have all evolved, just as a seed evolves into a tree. That's the only miracle that exists not someone's childish backward viwpoint

[OurIslamic]

Ok.........you might want to make your way to a religion "hate" site....you won't accomplish anything here...speaking logically...

[Judas]

No that's incorrect
I feel that many religious homes that most are living in fear, especially the most wisest of the family: the innocent children
I've even heard that babies don't believe in Allah at all, shocking I know. But sadly they are told to believe or get out (which is certainly the best option for them, I know I'd leave as soon as I heard such rubbish)

Logic says that religion is illogical, so therefore I stay

[OurIslamic]

Logically, how can the world exist without the influence of a supreme being? The world is not just here for no reason. There's a reason behind everything, which logically makes sense. The argument that religion is illogical is illogical in itself.

[Clover]

I am sorry you hate religion. It can be a amazing thing, and a terrible thing. Depends on the believer in opinion.

[YusufNoor]

I know hate is a strong word, but I have always felt that "religious" people state they love their specific (of the multitudes of) religion they have decided to follow. Why then can't I state that I hate all of them? (rhetorically speaking of course)

it's EASY to hate religions, alll but the TRUTH are manmade or perverted by man.


Hi all :)
I'm new here

I signed up because well I feel I can be good contributor here.
For one, I can inform members who are still undecided (basically still ignorant) that of all the billions of totally unique and individual beliefs (including some of the biggies) that you don't actually need to be religious at all (Many forget this most important point, weird I know)

well, we have to call you out on THAT one. ignorance is bliss and you MUST be very happy!


Anyway, please welcome me to the forum as one that will always speak truthfully and without bias.

if you don't know the TRUTH, you can't speak it. thus you will ALWAYS be biased towards your own ignorance, bit of a Catch-22, eh?

I only wish we could all be like that, but sadly many adopt the first religious way of life (usually due to fear of death or possibly even fictional power)


Allah guides those whom He wills.

I hope that all will be as strong as me and rejoice in life, as this is all there is. Although our physical body will decay (after death) this may be our only hope of attaching a small part of ourselves to something else. Obviously that's not religious belief either, that's just a likely possibility (possibly most likely) tiny option we have.

again, ignorance comes shining thru, i thought you weren't gonna be biased?

My daughter asked me, not long ago, "What happens when we die?" I gave her the best possible similarity: Just like when a computer turns off, that's it, there is no more" Unless you feel that there's some type of computer heaven that all computers go to? No, I wouldn't think so either.

why would you misguide your own daughter? so, so sad.

Generally people are afraid to die (I'm sure I will be as well, at the time)
Religions just try to smooth over that fear, but in reality its just a lie. Hence: I hate religions.

Thanks for having me onboard :)

perhaps you could just off yourself and see that your daughter gets a better upbringing, eh?

[Judas]

@OurIslamic, yes I hope we prove the existance of that "supreme being" one day.
I hope you are not basing your logic (even though there is only one logic) on some make believe and fairytale stuff. Now that would be sad.

@Clover, it's true I say "in my opinion" But I only say such things as to not being removed from this board
Certainly everything stated here is in someone's opinion. In my opinion religion is certainly a terrible thing.

It's ironic that my young children are not religious, especially since just by co-incidence I'm not religious either.
I wonder if it only is relevant to the household or location in which you live? If so, then I can't wait for my children to have children of their own. But in reality religious groups are falling lower and lower, I'm hoping to see the total demise of religion in my lifetime, we have come a long way since even 20 years ago (even 40) These are the awakening years, lets bring it on.

I don't go to hell when I die, as that is a religious point of view.
I have always felt that if there's something after death, then I'd want to be in charge (of course) Not a "follower" even the word makes me cringe.
Religion is about after life. But since I am presently alive I am not religious. I'll try to be my own god, after death, if I can. Because what I have seen so far I wouldn't want to be apart of.

So why am I here again? If I get to just one young ignorant child. Then it has been worth it. Maybe we can all be gods. Lets hope. But reality always sets in. My guinea pig died not long ago, where's he gone now? Oh that's right... trees and animals and even things like computers and electronics don't go to a better place, just people??? How weird :) I dearly hope we find other lifeforms on other universes that will set us straight (since they too will not go to heaven) What a joke.

[Getoffmyback]

You believe in a power behind the universe you call it power. You don't call it god so you deny the existence of any god. Don't you think that You should change your way of life from agnostic to atheist. But i will understand if you don't have the stomac for being called atheist. I know its not a good term for saloon ladys on a social level. Really agnosticism is just a decorated description of atheism to suit people who are afraid of having a bad reputation in their society.

[Woodrow]

Interesting.

We are very similar. You just believe in one less religion than I believe in. Not very many years ago, I could easily have posted the exact same thing you did.

It took me 65 years to find Islam. Oddly, I was not in an Islamic area and had no contact with Muslims. But, the events that happened that day convinced me I was wrong when I thought all religions were the same.

All I can say is do not close your mind to any possibilities and always ask questions and do your best to verify all answers.

[Judas]

No definitely not atheist. They are closed minded, hmm that sounds familiar to others here
I can't wait until we find a God out there (as yet not) I want to ask it how it became god so I can too.

[IslamicRevival]

If you think we are here in this world to have fun then you are sadly mistaken. If you think when we die, that's it its over then you are gravely misguided

At the end of the day....Its your loss. Islam will prevail in the end, You will see it with your own eyes one day by the will of Allah SWT

[Clover]

I am going to tell you of a past experience I have had Judas.

I used to hate Muslims. Or, I guess seriously dislike, I didn't hate all of them, I had a few friends who were Muslims. I have had family die fighting in Iraq/Afghanistan/Kuwait and I always believed Muslims killed them. In truth, soldiers/rebels/fighters did. Personally, I do not care what their religious affiliation is anymore.

I have met a lot of religious people, of all major and a lot of minor, religions. Some are amazingly peaceful, some are amazingly barbaric. I have met both on here, more of the former then the latter thankfully.

I think religion has made some of the best, and worst characters in the world. It's part of life, some people take things one way, some others. Personally, I take in mine (Taoism [more of a philosophy, but it's considered religion] and Shinto) as a family code. I am going to raise my kids to Shinto, I think its amazing, it has amazed me more then anything I have ever been a part of. I was once a Christian (Baptist) and was one for about 1 1/2-2 years, and I studied/followed the bible as best I could. Then one day I just didn't see how/why, and then I started searching. I have read books on dozens of world religions. All of them are unique in their own way.

Every religion has its bads, you shouldn't think about so much as why their are bads, as how. Look at how many of them are, many of the bads in religions have had mental issues since they were little, or were raised in bad states of mind (beaten, abused, sexually abused, all kinds of things). I judge Muslims, individually by how they act towards me and others. For instance, Woodrow, who has already posted, I could judge him based on how Muslims act on my TV OR I could judge him by his attitude, and code of honor (moral codes, pillars, whatever you decide to call them). I believe the way I do it is more accurate then the former ever is.

[Woodrow]

No definitely not atheist. They are closed minded, hmm that sounds familiar to others here
I can't wait until we find a God out there (as yet not) I want to ask it how it became god so I can too.

I am certain many others have also had the same thoughts. Possibly even some here, including myself.

This is something a person needs to find on their own as they will not believe the words of others, until they themselves understand, why they are asking.

All anybody can do is tell you why they themselves accept a religion as being true.

Just retain an open mind and ask yourself why you are even desiring to understand why we follow Islam.

[Yusuf Saeed]

Originally Posted by Judas
I find that religious followers are young in their mind. As if they have just not developed any further. That's the issue I suppose, that when you find your faith or belief or whatever it is that satisfies you, many then decide to stop growing. There is just no need to progress past your simple faith and learn any more.

Islam seems to be at the top of this issue even above the favorite Christianity. I think they all stopped quite a few thousand years ago (at least the newer religions have more knowledge but are obviously still wrong)

Hello!

You may find it so but that doesn't mean it is so. Usually it's the religious people who live their lives in a good manner and behave well towards fellow people and towards the whole society. Also, claiming that religious people feel there is no need to learn any more is an extremely naive and false statement. In fact Islam urges us to gain not only religious knowledge but also academical knowledge in many fields.

If you would compare Islamic world of around the Middle Ages with that of Europe then you would find drastic differences. The Europe at that time was rather backwards whereas in the Muslim countries science was progressing in a far better and faster way. The Islamic Spain for example had street lights and drainage systems while people in England were living in mud huts. It's a simple fact that already on its own should make you think a little and stop blaming Islam for being backwards.

Certainly this is the contrary. (as like all religions) Religious believers are the most anti-social group of the world, this shown in wars and words of hate against other social (religious) groups. Basically they generally don't like leaving their own sanctuary and "socialize" with others.
It's very sad that they miss out on the world and many societies that have different beliefs to their own.

First of all you didn't have any arguments against the specific points I mentioned. People of religion living longer with better physical health, there being less drug abuse amongst the youth and lower level of attempt of suicides plus the lack of so many negative effects of alcohol are all facts that cannot be ignored so blindly. Why don't you address these issues with some valid arguments before you start bashing the religion's positive affect on the society with invalid claims?

What concerns the religious groups being hateful against other social or religious groups then that is not the case with what Islam teaches us. As long as these other groups aren't hostile towards us we are to be kind with them.

Also, which wars do you mean by "this shown in wars"?

I don't understand this point. Morals? Like don't kill and things like that? No religious followers have little of real morals and accepting others.

You don't seem to have understood any point I've presented yet you do your best to refute them with no valid arguements.

Morals such as not to steal, not to kill and cause suffering to the innocent whether humans or animals or even plants, to show kindness towards one another, to be charitable and help the poor and needy, not to gossip and backbite, to be loving and show gratitude to one's parents. Every following Muslim does his/her best to follow these moral rules. So again, your claim of religious followers having little of real morals is thoroughly false.

You didn't address my point about God being the only source of objective morality. Would you mind telling me what are real morals to you anyway? What is your basis of distinguishing between moral and immoral?

Philosophy? Religion and philosophy should never be in the same sentence, they are both opposites.

Let's see the definition of philosophy from Oxford dictionary of current English language. "phi·los·o·phy / fəˈläsəfē/ • n. (pl. -phies) the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, esp. when considered as an academic discipline."

It shows that in fact philosophy has a lot to do with religion. And by the way both studies such as Christian philosophy and Islamic philosophy exist.

As we inevitably find intelligent life on other planets

I hope you are not seeing yourself as some new kind of Nostradamus trying to predict the unpredictable. As far as real science is concerned no intelligent life has been found on other planets and real science also doesn't practise soothsaying.

Lets just say that thankfully religion has been removed from our law books in most of the developed world countries. Imagine living under religious laws, now that was the dark ages.

And let's just see what has happened to these non-religious societies. I'm happening to live in one of the most non-religious countries of the world and I've seen what this society is like.

With no or very little religion societies decay morally. People consume more alcohol and that brings about so many problems not only to the individual consumer but also to people around him/her and to the whole society. People consider pornography as something completely okay, they don't value the marriage which results in broken families and children with only one parent. People don't have any morality concerning other people in the society, the rates of rape, stealing and murder are way higher in non-religious societies than they are in dominantly religious ones.

Your sentence "Imagine living under religious laws, now that was the dark ages." shows your ignorance about the history of Islamic world. In Muslim countries there was no such thing as Dark Ages, there was no inquisition in the Islamic world and its atrocities of killing and torturing of innocent people in the most cruel way.

And who's in power anyway? Because I see no god on Earth, I just see Earth and far beyond into the universe and religion just has no place.
We have all evolved, just as a seed evolves into a tree. That's the only miracle that exists not someone's childish backward viwpoint

The fact that you don't see God on Earth doesn't mean He does not exist. It's a very ridiculous claim as I may as ridiculously claim that I do not see your brain therefore you don't have one. There are many proofs of God's existence starting from the very beginning of the Universe. If it was not some supreme power (whom we call God) who created it then what was it? Would you really seriously claim that it just came to existence by sheer chance?


I'd also like to adress a point you made in one of your other replies. This one:

I've even heard that babies don't believe in Allah at all, shocking I know.

This what "you've even heard" is false as studies have shown the opposite.

Dr. Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, has found that children instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose and also that if one would throw a handful of children on an island and they raised themselves they would probably believe in God.



I'm looking forward to your response and I'm hoping you'll come up with some real arguments instead of subjective and invalid claims. Also, please directly address the points I mentioned.

Take care!

[glo]

No definitely not atheist. They are closed minded, hmm that sounds familiar to others here
I can't wait until we find a God out there (as yet not) I want to ask it how it became god so I can too.

Who are you waiting for to 'find God out there'? Science?
All of us who have come to believe in God have found him already!

The concept of becoming like God yourself is quite alien to Christian thinking(and I am sure Islamic thinking too).
If you could become like God, what kind of qualities would that give you, you think?
What, in your mind, sets God apart from us?

[Judas]

First of all you didn't have any arguments against the specific points I mentioned. People of religion living longer with better physical health, there being less drug abuse amongst the youth and lower level of attempt of suicides plus the lack of so many negative effects of alcohol are all facts that cannot be ignored so blindly. Why don't you address these issues

These types of statements cannot be answered in retaliation of my concerns
This type of statement is the same as me saying, people of non-religion, and developed countries live a fuller life than religious groups bound by their traditions.
ie How much time have you wasted in your church or mosque or temple, and how much time put on learning and praying to your god?
I have put zero. And therefore I have spent more time actually living and enjoying life.
I feel sorry for the crowded Christian churches on Sundays, or the muslims bowing at some wall every day; as I spend happy times in the park/beach/absolutely any outing on this holiday, of which we must cherish in our working life.
Not waste in some cement building, learning thousands years old ridiculousness, of being a sheep.

Also, which wars do you mean by "this shown in wars"?

Hello, wake up. Religious wars are the most ongoing wars of them all
And not against us "normals" But against other religions. Lets hope they both blow themselves up. Why wait for the next generation to say, oh I'm not living that old religious way, its madness.

You don't seem to have understood any point I've presented yet you do your best to refute them with no valid arguements.

Let me make this extremely clear to you
I am not going to argue fairytale with science. If you bring these types of questions and statements up, I'll likely laugh it off, or provide a better example of non-religious way of life.

Every following Muslim does his/her best to follow these moral rules. So again, your claim of religious followers having little of real morals is thoroughly false.

You didn't address my point about God being the only source of objective morality. Would you mind telling me what are real morals to you anyway? What is your basis of distinguishing between moral and immoral?

Good point. Because it certainly isn't any religious definition of morals
My morals are live a good life and not hurt other in doing so
What else is there?
If you then wonder why I "hurt" religious followers (in my words) Its to help them wake up and smell the roses. Ideally there may still be hope left for some (obviously not you, as you're too far down the rabbit hole)
Lets hope that some child (say teenager) gets a read of this and stops for a second and says, good point, I'm not wasting anymore time praying to something that isn't yet proven. In actual fact there are countless religions and they all have their own ideas

My idea is that they're all wrong. Hey I did go to another forum (about a year ago or so) where I was inevitably banned (for speaking my mind, I might add) I gave some statistics of developed world non believers percentages. And I then went over that with the demise in percentage of religions. You'll just have to acknowledge the fact that religion is definitely going, and good riddance to that waste of life.

I hope you are not seeing yourself as some new kind of Nostradamus trying to predict the unpredictable. As far as real science is concerned no intelligent life has been found on other planets and real science also doesn't practise soothsaying.

Hello (again) that's what religious people say
I'm not going to state something without fact.
You honestly think that people, human beings, are the be all and end all. Wow that's limited minded.
In the nearly infinite universe (until the end of time) the likelihood of other intelligent life (even far greater than our own) is MORE likely than not.
There sure will be a lot of tales between legs when scientists inevitably find this out. This by scientific facts only. Oh but then the "religious" people will re-interpret their holy writings again. As per has been done across the ages. I hear that people not of white skin have souls now, and they don't burn witches any longer. But sadly women are still not equal in religion yet, and extraterrestrial lifeforms haven't been given souls either, wow they are definitely going to be angry with you guys.
Oh by the way, there is no such thing as a soul, obviously. I even checked inside my computer processor and no soul in their either. People with imaginary souls, what rot.

People consume more alcohol and that brings about so many problems .... the rates of rape, stealing and murder are way higher in non-religious societies than they are in dominantly religious ones.

Yes and can you get rid of the new age hard rock bands. I personally still like the hard rock of the 70s.
Oh and alcohol and drugs don't cause rape etc, its the people who can't control themselves. They probably should steer away from such drugs.
Generally most many people drink every Saturday night (and at other times) They are all ok. Some even drink at home with their partner, whilst at mealtime. These people are not raping etc. anyone. You may be a tad old fashioned in this area.

Your sentence "Imagine living under religious laws, now that was the dark ages." shows your ignorance about the history of Islamic world. In Muslim countries there was no such thing as Dark Ages, there was no inquisition in the Islamic world and its atrocities of killing and torturing of innocent people in the most cruel way.

Oh, good point (meaning bad point of course) Countries living with religion as part of their law ARE in the dark ages. I'd say get out.

The fact that you don't see God on Earth doesn't mean He does not exist. It's a very ridiculous claim as I may as ridiculously claim that I do not see your brain therefore you don't have one.

Huh the standard typical argumentative debate, that seems to be everywhere across the net.
Since this exact point has already been debated to the max. on countless sites (no doubt here as well, but I haven't checked) I'll just cut to the chase and state that things such as a brain in someone's head can be counted as scientific fact, even though we can't see it. But such things as "God's religion on Earth" are not fact, and are counted as more likely incorrect. Certainly not scientifically proven. I was about to go to search Google for this, but forget it, as you MUST already know, and this is just some type of idiocy testing or something. I really hope that we don't debate this small point, because I would win.

There are many proofs of God's existence starting from the very beginning of the Universe. If it was not some supreme power (whom we call God) who created it then what was it? Would you really seriously claim that it just came to existence by sheer chance?

It's never ending with you!
No one created the small planet Earth or the entire solar system, or the lifeforms (to be found) in other solar systems.
That's my point!
Everything evolved from the beginning of time as we know it.
Stay tuned as real (non-religious) scientists try to solve this mystery, aren't we down to 4seconds after the the big bang or something.
And by the way, there was life before people you know. This is proven already, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I hope religious people know this FACT. Maybe God is really a dinosaur, and we are the mutations of his view of a lifeform. At least that would make more sense, since people haven't been around forever.

Dr. Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, has found that children instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose and also that if one would throw a handful of children on an island and they raised themselves they would probably believe in God.

Yes, I agree that most let fear control us (as per my original point)
But the real issue is, that we make these things up to protect ourselves from this fear of death
I've already stated that its scary to die. I'll do my best at the time and I wish with all my might that I scream out I hate all religions and everything they stand for. Before I die. Since that is what I truly feel, during my entire life whilst being alive!

I'm looking forward to your response and I'm hoping you'll come up with some real arguments instead of subjective and invalid claims. Also, please directly address the points I mentioned.

Take care!

Replied in full above.
Do note yours are the invalid claims. You actually believe in some make believe fairytale. I keep reminding myself of that, whilst writing to you; so I don't get caught up in one of those immature debates, that I'm way beyond now.

I'm not debating the existence of God (we have to prove he exists first). I'm stating that all religions are bad, even in their vast differences across millions (possibly billions) of different interpretations of what they believe, in their religious ways.

And by the way, I'm happy and so are my family. We are living a fulfilled life together, away from the limitations of religions. I'm quite happy to blaspheme your lord, just to prove I won't be struck down this moment.
If the board allows it (and I do doubt it) I will openly say any words against your god, in any way or fashion. Since he doesn't actually exist >.<

[OurIslamic]

@OurIslamic, yes I hope we prove the existance of that "supreme being" one day.
I hope you are not basing your logic (even though there is only one logic) on some make believe and fairytale stuff. Now that would be sad.

It's ironic that my young children are not religious, especially since just by co-incidence I'm not religious either.
I wonder if it only is relevant to the household or location in which you live? If so, then I can't wait for my children to have children of their own. But in reality religious groups are falling lower and lower, I'm hoping to see the total demise of religion in my lifetime, we have come a long way since even 20 years ago (even 40) These are the awakening years, lets bring it on.

So why am I here again? If I get to just one young ignorant child. Then it has been worth it. Maybe we can all be gods. Lets hope. But reality always sets in. My guinea pig died not long ago, where's he gone now? Oh that's right... trees and animals and even things like computers and electronics don't go to a better place, just people??? How weird :) I dearly hope we find other lifeforms on other universes that will set us straight (since they too will not go to heaven) What a joke.

1) It's funny how you didn't attempt to refute my logic, but attempted to dismiss it by stating that you "hope I'm not using fairy tale logic". I've noticed that when you have something to say, you readily spit it out. You obviously don't have an answer to what I've stated.

2) Your children aren't religious because of your influence. You even stated that you told your daughter anti-religious ideas. That's why they're not religious. People are born Muslim, and in a state of purity. However, after they've been influenced by negativity, they stray away.

3) You won't see a demise of religion in your lifetime, believe me. People are not stupid enough to throw away the truth so quickly.

4) You're looking for ignorant people who don't know much about Islam. You're trying to negatively change their thought process regarding religion. It's the same thing as brain washing. Your statement that "if you get to one ignorant person" shows us all the truth and reality of your visit to IB.

5) The reason why computers, electronics, etc won't go to heaven is because they're not living things with a mind of their own. Humans are alive, and can think for themselves. They decide whether or not they want to go to heaven (through their actions). Allah (SWT) judges us and insha'Allah, we go to heaven. Now tell me, how can a man made creation (computers, for example) go to heaven?

6) It's also interesting how you think that you know everything.
You said:

hope we find other lifeforms on other universes that will set us straight (since they too will not go to heaven)

There are other life forms other than humans, I don't know much about them, but Allah (SWT) has created them. (Jinn for example). How do you know they won't go to heaven or something similar? Are you omniscient?

I hope this clears up your misconceptions. Try to refute it, if you can.

[جوري]

I hate religions

I hate all theologies and ideologies (outside of Islam) -- I too think they are very dangerous!


with that let me :welcome: you aboard..

[OurIslamic]

I hate all theologies and ideologies (outside of Islam) -- I too think they are very dangerous!


with that let me :welcome: you aboard..

Thanks for backing him up...and representing Muslims in a positive manner! :exhausted

Really..I expected more from you.

[جوري]

Thanks for backing him up...and representing Muslims in a positive manner! :exhausted

Really..I expected more from you.

:sl:

why expend so much effort on someone who has already made up his mind?
by the way it is truly how I feel toward kuffr or shirk of any kind. I detest it!

:w:

[OurIslamic]

I "expend so much effort" because I feel it's my responsibility to do so. I want to educate people regarding Islam, I even made a website to do so (and it has been growing quite rapidly, masha'Allah). Non-Muslims have a right to know, and we are compelled to share our knowledge.

If you want him to open his mind, show that your mind is open as well. Show that you welcome new ideas, as long as they don't go against your Iman.

[جوري]

I "expend so much effort" because I feel it's my responsibility to do so. I want to educate people regarding Islam, I even made a website to do so (and it has been growing quite rapidly, masha'Allah). Non-Muslims have a right to know, and we are compelled to share our knowledge.

Then may Allah swt make you successful at offering da3wa.. I personally prefer to channel my efforts with folks who need and request it rather than ones who come in and introduce themselves as 'haters of religions'
(28: 56) VERILY, thou canst not guide aright everyone whom thou lovest: but it is God who guides him that wills [to be guided]; and He is fully aware of all who would let themselves be guided.

If you want him to open his mind, show that your mind is open as well. Show that you welcome new ideas, as long as they don't go against your Iman.

I am not open minded to kufr or shirk with all their shades even if merely to sustain a viable conversation with a non-Muslim!

(6:68) When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.


:w:

[OurIslamic]

I am not open minded to kufr or shirk with all their shades even if merely to sustain a viable conversation with a non-Muslim!

(6:68) When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.


:w:

Well, you don't have to sit in their company...but if the come up to your "house" as someone referred to it earlier and start disrespecting your religion, you can't just say, "I hate your beliefs too!". Insha'Allah, you get my point.

[جوري]

Well, you don't have to sit in their company...but if the come up to your "house" as someone referred to it earlier and start disrespecting your religion, you can't just say, "I hate your beliefs too!". Insha'Allah, you get my point.

I don't open the door to every dog that barks and explain myself..
I get your point, I am just asking you to Chanel your effort to those worthy..

and Allah swt knows best

:w:

[OurIslamic]

Ok, insha'Allah I will. I'll start now :)

[Yusuf Saeed]

Originally posted by Judas
These types of statements cannot be answered in retaliation of my concerns
This type of statement is the same as me saying, people of non-religion, and developed countries live a fuller life than religious groups bound by their traditions.

You seem to value science so much yet you disregard scientific proofs completely. In 2002 Brian Johnson with his colleagues from Pennsylvania University reviewed around 500 studies made about religion and concluded that most of them showed a positive link between religious commitment and higher level of self-esteem, lower levels of hypertension, depression and criminality.

This is pure fact and statistics that shows a positive effect of religion on a person and on the whole society. Why would you now refute it with some similar response when you claim to hold science so dear?

I feel sorry for the crowded Christian churches on Sundays, or the muslims bowing at some wall every day; as I spend happy times in the park/beach/absolutely any outing on this holiday, of which we must cherish in our working life.

Just like I feel sorry for all the atheists who spend this life following whatever desires they have and then spend an eternity in Hellfire. But this type of claims are non-important as they don't prove anything about whether religion is good or bad.

Hello, wake up. Religious wars are the most ongoing wars of them all
And not against us "normals" But against other religions. Lets hope they both blow themselves up. Why wait for the next generation to say, oh I'm not living that old religious way, its madness.

Religious wars? Are you sure they really are that much religious and not more about fighting against the occupation?

And why do you talk about "blowing themselves up" when suicide bombing is strictly forbidden in Islam?

Let me make this extremely clear to you
I am not going to argue fairytale with science. If you bring these types of questions and statements up, I'll likely laugh it off, or provide a better example of non-religious way of life.

If you cannot grasp the idea of God and religion than at least argue the scientific facts I've presented with science. But if you continue in the same manner not responding with any real arguments backed up by some facts of studies or science and continue just spreading hatred about religions this whole debate is useless and perhaps this board is not a very proper place for you. Try at least to argue in a bit more polite and civilized manner, show us that you really are that mature person you claim yourself to be.

Good point. Because it certainly isn't any religious definition of morals
My morals are live a good life and not hurt other in doing so
What else is there?

Your idea of good life and what is right and what is wrong is subjective. Your views on that have been most probably developed due to social pressure, due to what the society you live in has made you become like.
A rapist may also think he's living a good life and think he doesn't cause any hurt to young boys he abuses. But he's just as subjective as you are with your views of morality.

Only objective source of morality can be God as He is beyond the human subjectivity. Also, there would be no good and evil without God.

In the nearly infinite universe (until the end of time) the likelihood of other intelligent life (even far greater than our own) is MORE likely than not.
There sure will be a lot of tales between legs when scientists inevitably find this out. This by scientific facts only. Oh but then the "religious" people will re-interpret their holy writings again.

As for the time being no intelligent life on other planets has been discovered. But Islam doesn't say there surely isn't any life on other planets just like it doesn't claim that there is. So in case there will be life found on other planets one day it would not contradict the teachings of Islam and there wouldn't be any need of re-interpreting the Qur'an as you claim there would be.

I hear that people not of white skin have souls now, and they don't burn witches any longer. But sadly women are still not equal in religion yet

People of all races have been considered as equal from the beginning of Islam. Neither has there been such "burning of witches" as there was in the Medieval Europe. And what concernes the women they are not inferior to men as men and women are equal by the teachings of Islam.[/QUOTE]

Islam affirms the absolute spiritual equality of men and women, and assigns both an equal rank before God. In jurisprudential matters, Islam promotes the substantive equality of men and women, recognizes their unique strengths and capabilities, and rules accordingly protecting the rights of both.

Both males and females have similar rewards for obedience and penalties for disobedience in this world and the Hereafter. As stated in the Qur'an:
Whoever does righteous acts, whether male or female, while he is a believer, verily, to him We will give a good life, and We shall pay them certainly a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do. (16:97)

Islam entitles women to the same rights as men in terms of education and cultivation. The Prophet himself (:saws:) said:
Seeking knowledge is compulsory for each and every Muslim (i.e. both male and female). (Ibn Majah #224 al-Baihaqi and verified)

And note that all this was stated more than 1400 years ago, think about the status of women in non-Islamic societies of that time and even in modern societies where women are often seen as inferior to men in many matters. For example in the country I reside in women get the average of about 70% of the money which men get as their salary.

Oh and alcohol and drugs don't cause rape etc, its the people who can't control themselves. They probably should steer away from such drugs.

Where did I state that alcohol and drugs cause rape?
You say people can't control themselves thus they should steer away from such drugs. This is non-sensical as when they can't control themselves how do you think they'd be able to leave these drugs?

But the fact is that amongst people who follow religion there is a lot less drug and alcohol abuse and a lot less all the other problems that come with alchol and drugs. This is statistics which you seem to be unable to accept.

Countries living with religion as part of their law ARE in the dark ages. I'd say get out.

There are no real Islamic countries that completely follow religion in their law.

It's never ending with you!
No one created the small planet Earth or the entire solar system, or the lifeforms (to be found) in other solar systems.
That's my point!
Everything evolved from the beginning of time as we know it.
Stay tuned as real (non-religious) scientists try to solve this mystery, aren't we down to 4seconds after the the big bang or something.

Universe had a beginning thus it must have a cause. Also, the initial conditions for it to begin in the first place must have been fine tuned to a degree that's above our minds.

According to Stephen Hawking (I hope he classifies as a "real scientist" in your definition) if the expansion rate of the Universe in the beginning would have differed by 10 to the power of -20 seconds, it would have recollapsed and there would have been no Universe.

Roger Penrose from Oxford University has calculated that the chance of [B]Big Bang conditions existing by chance were 1 in 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123[B].

By the way 1 in 10 to the power of 50 means "zero probability" in mathematics (I hope you accept it as a field of science).

So how can one rational thinking person claim that the Universe happened by chance, that it just happened to come into existence?

But the real issue is, that we make these things up to protect ourselves from this fear of death
I've already stated that its scary to die. I'll do my best at the time and I wish with all my might that I scream out I hate all religions and everything they stand for. Before I die. Since that is what I truly feel, during my entire life whilst being alive!

In atheistic view on life there actually is no meaning for life whereas a religious view on life lacks the vain suffering of this life and the lack of meaning.

Before making such a claim of hating all religions and everything they stand for think a little next time. I really hope you did not mean it and think about what you said because if you did then such a claim makes you a horrible person. By hating everything that religions stand for you hate being kind to one another, not killing the innocent, not stealing and torturing, showing gratitude towards parents etc.

I'm stating that all religions are bad, even in their vast differences across millions (possibly billions) of different interpretations of what they believe, in their religious ways.

It makes you a blind person who cannot see all the good that religions, especially Islam, carry with them. I've already presented many positive things which you simply do not wish to or cannot accept and just refute them with claims of no proof. If your responses continue in a similar manner then the only thing you've proven is that you in fact are not beyond immaturity in contrast to your own claim.

So I again ask you to to please show some maturity and politeness in your responses towards people here or otherwise this thread should perhaps just be closed as it carries no meaning when you cannot behave maturely and the only point you have to make is about how happy you think you are for hating religions.

[CosmicPathos]

You seem to value science so much yet you disregard scientific proofs completely. In 2002 Brian Johnson with his colleagues from Pennsylvania University reviewed around 500 studies made about religion and concluded that most of them showed a positive link between religious commitment and higher level of self-esteem, lower levels of hypertension, depression and criminality.

This is pure fact and statistics that shows a positive effect of religion on a person and on the whole society. Why would you now refute it with some similar response when you claim to hold science so dear?



Just like I feel sorry for all the atheists who spend this life following whatever desires they have and then spend an eternity in Hellfire. But this type of claims are non-important as they don't prove anything about whether religion is good or bad.



Religious wars? Are you sure they really are that much religious and not more about fighting against the occupation?

And why do you talk about "blowing themselves up" when suicide bombing is strictly forbidden in Islam?



If you cannot grasp the idea of God and religion than at least argue the scientific facts I've presented with science. But if you continue in the same manner not responding with any real arguments backed up by some facts of studies or science and continue just spreading hatred about religions this whole debate is useless and perhaps this board is not a very proper place for you. Try at least to argue in a bit more polite and civilized manner, show us that you really are that mature person you claim yourself to be.




Your idea of good life and what is right and what is wrong is subjective. Your views on that have been most probably developed due to social pressure, due to what the society you live in has made you become like.
A rapist may also think he's living a good life and think he doesn't cause any hurt to young boys he abuses. But he's just as subjective as you are with your views of morality.

Only objective source of morality can be God as He is beyond the human subjectivity. Also, there would be no good and evil without God.



As for the time being no intelligent life on other planets has been discovered. But Islam doesn't say there surely isn't any life on other planets just like it doesn't claim that there is. So in case there will be life found on other planets one day it would not contradict the teachings of Islam and there wouldn't be any need of re-interpreting the Qur'an as you claim there would be.



People of all races have been considered as equal from the beginning of Islam. Neither has there been such "burning of witches" as there was in the Medieval Europe. And what concernes the women they are not inferior to men as men and women are equal by the teachings of Islam.

Islam affirms the absolute spiritual equality of men and women, and assigns both an equal rank before God. In jurisprudential matters, Islam promotes the substantive equality of men and women, recognizes their unique strengths and capabilities, and rules accordingly protecting the rights of both.

Both males and females have similar rewards for obedience and penalties for disobedience in this world and the Hereafter. As stated in the Qur'an:
Whoever does righteous acts, whether male or female, while he is a believer, verily, to him We will give a good life, and We shall pay them certainly a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do. (16:97)

Islam entitles women to the same rights as men in terms of education and cultivation. The Prophet himself (:saws:) said:
Seeking knowledge is compulsory for each and every Muslim (i.e. both male and female). (Ibn Majah #224 al-Baihaqi and verified)

And note that all this was stated more than 1400 years ago, think about the status of women in non-Islamic societies of that time and even in modern societies where women are often seen as inferior to men in many matters. For example in the country I reside in women get the average of about 70% of the money which men get as their salary.




Where did I state that alcohol and drugs cause rape?
You say people can't control themselves thus they should steer away from such drugs. This is non-sensical as when they can't control themselves how do you think they'd be able to leave these drugs?

But the fact is that amongst people who follow religion there is a lot less drug and alcohol abuse and a lot less all the other problems that come with alchol and drugs. This is statistics which you seem to be unable to accept.



There are no real Islamic countries that completely follow religion in their law.




Universe had a beginning thus it must have a cause. Also, the initial conditions for it to begin in the first place must have been fine tuned to a degree that's above our minds.

According to Stephen Hawking (I hope he classifies as a "real scientist" in your definition) if the expansion rate of the Universe in the beginning would have differed by 10 to the power of -20 seconds, it would have recollapsed and there would have been no Universe.

Roger Penrose from Oxford University has calculated that the chance of [B]Big Bang conditions existing by chance were 1 in 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123[B].

By the way 1 in 10 to the power of 50 means "zero probability" in mathematics (I hope you accept it as a field of science).

So how can one rational thinking person claim that the Universe happened by chance, that it just happened to come into existence?




In atheistic view on life there actually is no meaning for life whereas a religious view on life lacks the vain suffering of this life and the lack of meaning.

Before making such a claim of hating all religions and everything they stand for think a little next time. I really hope you did not mean it and think about what you said because if you did then such a claim makes you a horrible person. By hating everything that religions stand for you hate being kind to one another, not killing the innocent, not stealing and torturing, showing gratitude towards parents etc.




It makes you a blind person who cannot see all the good that religions, especially Islam, carry with them. I've already presented many positive things which you simply do not wish to or cannot accept and just refute them with claims of no proof. If your responses continue in a similar manner then the only thing you've proven is that you in fact are not beyond immaturity in contrast to your own claim.

So I again ask you to to please show some maturity and politeness in your responses towards people here or otherwise this thread should perhaps just be closed as it carries no meaning when you cannot behave maturely and the only point you have to make is about how happy you think you are for hating religions.[/QUOTE]

Judas is pawned.

[glo]

Judas, you might want to read The Happiness Hypothesis by Jonathan Haidt
Jonathan Haidt is an atheist with Jewish background, who explores the meaning of ancient religious wisdoms (from several different religions) within the context of modern psychology.
Although not a believer himself he has much good things to say about religion, especially in terms of the psychological, emotional and spiritual well-being of believers.

[nightingale]

I signed up because well I feel I can be good contributor here.
For one, I can inform members who are still undecided (basically still ignorant) that of all the billions of totally unique and individual beliefs (including some of the biggies) that you don't actually need to be religious at all (Many forget this most important point, weird I know)

I hope your real intention to join this forum is to learn about Islam, and not to teach your views. If your main aim is to inform the undecided and ignorant, you could start a website with all your ideas and post a link here, so the undecided and ignorant ones among us could visit and benefit from your knowledge.

[Uthman]

Check this out: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...-religion.html

[Donia]

With all due respect,

I don't really understand why you are here. I read your reason but it doesn't make sense to me.. at all.

If I hated cats, I wouldn't go and seek out a cat forum and then join so I could hopefully convince anyone who was unsure if they wanted to adopt a cat or even learn about cats not to because I hate them so much.

:hmm:

[CosmicPathos]

With all due respect,

I don't really understand why you are here. I read your reason but it doesn't make sense to me.. at all.

If I hated cats, I wouldn't go and seek out a cat forum and then join so I could hopefully convince anyone who was unsure if they wanted to adopt a cat or even learn about cats not to because I hate them so much.

:hmm:

That is because you are a sensible person. A religion hater finds amusement in making fun or correcting those who he/she thinks are deluded. Acting like a Messiah.