Women and men in the mosque

[anonymous]

salam aleikum

there have been a debate going on in the media in the country where i live, which is a non muslim country. and there have been MUSLIMS mostly women that have been going to media and discussion the issue of women being discrimnated in the mosques... like they get little rooms/space and they dont enter in the main entrence (thats for men), basically they have different entrence.. also they claim it is bidah to divide women and men, meaning two different rooms in the mosque because they did not do that in the prophets time. can someone explain, is it bidah??

now they are demanding that mosques with no division is built for both women and men.. something is wrong for me about this idea i do not know.. but it is sure confusing me and other muslims and non muslims as well because these people are muslims whos going out and saying women are being discrimnated in this way.. they demand women and men in the same room!

i would be happy if someone could link me to a site or give me some answers on this issue i couldnt find anything relevent to this as ive tried to search around.. does the scholars say something about this?? jazkallah kheir brothers and sisters!

[Insaanah]

:sl:

It seems like these Muslim women do not understand the concept of hijaab. I wander if they will remove that too. Will they see it as discrimination? May Allah guide them. Please see the following, which may help you:

Argument over whether to keep the partition between men and women in the mosque

In one of the mosques there is a partition between men and women. A dispute has arisen as to how important this partition is. Some think that there is no need for it, because at the time of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) there was no partition; others insist on having it. The resulting argument may lead those who think there should be no partition to stop praying in the mosque, despite the fact that removing the partition could lead to some degree of mixing or looking at the opposite sex when leaving the mosque, because some of the men are not strongly committed in their religion. Should we insist on keeping the partition even though some people may stop praying in the mosque, or should we remove it although this may lead to people looking at the opposite sex?

Praise be to Allaah.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen answered this question as follows:

The partition should stay. The fact that there was no partition at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was either because there was no need for it or because there was a reason why they could not have a partition. With regard to the former, the Sahaabah, may Allaah be pleased with them, had such strong faith in Allaah that they would not look at women; with regard to the latter, the financial situation of the Sahaabah, as we know, especially before the conquests, was one of hardship, and they could not afford to put a partition between themselves and the women. Having understood this, we should next look at which is further removed from fitnah, having a partition or not having it? Everyone will agree that having the partition is less likely to cause fitnah. If that is the case, then whatever is less likely to cause fitnah is what should be done. If you say, “If we insist on keeping it, those who want to remove it will stay away from the mosque,” our response is that if they stay away, they are doing wrong. They have no excuse for failing to pray in jamaa’ah because of this partition being there. Having the partition there is not a sin such that they could say, “We are not coming to be witnesses to sin.” If they stay away, they are committing sin by failing to attend prayers in congregation.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen

From: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/4019/m...men%20women://

Conditions of women going out to the mosque

Is it permissible for women to go and pray tahajjud in the mosque without a mahram when the mosque is next to the house and the men in the family do not do this prayer?.

Praise be to Allaah.

It is permissible for women to go to the mosque and pray, subject to certain conditions. It is not one of these conditions that she should be accompanied by a mahram, so there is nothing wrong with her going to the mosque to pray without a mahram.

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 7/332:

It is permissible for a Muslim woman to pray in the mosque and her husband does not have the right to stop her if she asks him for permission to do that, so long as she is properly covered and no part of her body is showing that it is forbidden for “strangers” (non mahrams) to see. It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “When your womenfolk ask you for permission to go to the mosque, give them permission.” According to another version, “Do not forbid women their share of the mosques if they ask you for permission.” Bilaal – a son of ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar – said, “By Allaah, we will stop them.” ‘Abd-Allaah said to him, “I say ‘The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said…’ and you say, ‘We will stop them’?!” Both reports were narrated by Muslim.

If the woman is uncovered and any part of her body is showing that it is forbidden for “strangers” (non mahrams) to see, or she is wearing perfume, then it is not permissible for her to go out of her house in this state, let alone go out to the mosque and pray there, because of the fitnah (temptation) involved. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands…”

[al-Noor 24:31]

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

Zaynab al-Thaqafiyyah used to narrate that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If any one of you (women) attends ‘Isha’ prayer, let her not put on perfume that night.” According to another report, “If any one of you (women) attends the mosque, let her not put on perfume that night.” Narrated by Muslim in his Saheeh.

It was proven in saheeh ahaadeeth that the women of the Sahaabah used to attend Fajr prayer in congregation, covering their faces, so that no one would recognize them. It was proven that ‘Amrah bint ‘Abd al-Rahmaan said: I heard ‘Aa’ishah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), say: “If the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had seen the way the women are behaving, he would have forbidden them to go to the mosque as the women of the Children of Israel were forbidden.” It was said to ‘Amrah: Were the women of the Children of Israel forbidden to go to the mosque? She said: Yes. Narrated by Muslim in his Saheeh.

These texts clearly indicate that if the Muslim woman adheres to proper Islamic etiquette in her dress and avoids adorning herself in ways that will provoke fitnah and affect those of weak faith, there is no reason why she should not pray in the mosque. If she appears in such a way that evil people and those in whose heart is a disease will be tempted by her, then she is not allowed to enter the mosque, rather she is not allowed to leave her home and attend the mosque.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 14/211:

There is nothing wrong with women attending taraaweeh prayers if there is no danger of fitnah, subject to the condition that they go out looking decent and not wearing adornments, make-up or perfume.

In his book Hiraasat al-Fadeelah (p. 86), Shaykh Bakr Abu Zayd listed the conditions for women to go out to the mosque. He said:

Women are allowed to go out to the mosque according to the following rulings:

1- That there is no risk of them tempting others or being tempted

2- That their attendance will not lead to anything that is forbidden according to sharee’ah

3- That they do not jostle with men in the street or in the mosque

4- That they should go out not wearing perfume

5- That they should go out wearing hijab, not making a wanton display of their adornment

6- A door should be set aside in the mosque just for women to enter and exit, as mentioned in the hadeeth narrated in Sunan Abi Dawood and elsewhere.

7- The women’s rows should be behind the men

8- The best rows for women are those at the back, unlike the case for men

9- If the imam makes any mistake in his prayer, men should say “Subhan Allaah!” and women should clap

10-The women should leave the mosque before the men, and the men should wait until the women have dispersed to their homes, as mentioned in the hadeeth of Umm Salamah (may Allaah be pleased with her) in Saheeh al-Bukhaari and elsewhere.

Islam Q&A

From: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/49898/...%20men%20women

Ruling on women praying in the mosque when they cannot see the imam or the men praying behind him

What is the ruling on the prayers of women in mosques where they cannot see the imam or the men praying behind him, and they can only hear his voice?.

Praise be to Allaah.

It is permissible for women, and also for men, to pray with a congregation in the mosque even if they cannot see the imam or the men praying behind him, if they are able to follow the imam. If the voice reaches the women in their part of the mosque and they are able to follow the imam, then it is valid for them to pray in congregation with the imam, because it is all one place, and it is possible to follow either hearing the voice through loudspeakers or hearing the imam’s voice directly, or by hearing the voice of the one who repeats the imam’s takbeer. It does not matter if they cannot see the imam or the men praying behind him. Rather some of the scholars stipulated that one should be able to see the imam or the men praying behind him if one is praying outside the mosque. The fuqaha’ said that the prayer of one who is praying outside the mosque is only valid if he can see the imam or the men praying behind him. But the correct view in my opinion is that it is not valid for a person to follow the imam from outside the mosque, even if he can see the imam and the men praying behind him, if there is a place in the mosque where he could pray. That is because the purpose of praying in congregation is to bring together the place and the deeds. But if the mosque is full and those who are outside the mosque pray with the imam and are able to follow him, then the correct view is that it is permissible for them to follow the imam, whether they can see the imam or not, if the rows are continuous. End quote from Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (15/213)

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

From: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/36855/...%20men%20women

Hope this helps a bit.

:sl:

[ardianto]

salam aleikum

Wa alaikumsalam wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh

there have been a debate going on in the media in the country where i live, which is a non muslim country. and there have been MUSLIMS mostly women that have been going to media and discussion the issue of women being discrimnated in the mosques... like they get little rooms/space and they dont enter in the main entrence (thats for men), basically they have different entrence.. also they claim it is bidah to divide women and men, meaning two different rooms in the mosque because they did not do that in the prophets time. can someone explain, is it bidah??

Rule of salat jama'ah is : Men in front row, women in back row, not men in first room, women in second room.

now they are demanding that mosques with no division is built for both women and men.. something is wrong for me about this idea i do not know.. but it is sure confusing me and other muslims and non muslims as well because these people are muslims whos going out and saying women are being discrimnated in this way.. they demand women and men in the same room!

If you come to my country you can find masjids in everywhere. But you cannot find masjid with two rooms which one for men one for women. In my country men and women salat in same room. We use portable partition for separate men and women. When salat we share masjid room into front and back. Front side for men, back side for women. But when listening to khutbah from a scholar, we share the room into left and right because listening to khutbah is same as seeking knowledge, and in seeking knowledge, men and women have a same right.

i would be happy if someone could link me to a site or give me some answers on this issue i couldnt find anything relevent to this as ive tried to search around.. does the scholars say something about this?? jazkallah kheir brothers and sisters!

I cannot give you a link, but if you can come to my home I can bring you to scholars who can explain, there is no rule in Islam, women are not allowed to salat behind men in the same room.


By the way, allow women to salat in the same row with men is wrong except in certain situation. But prohibit women to salat in masjid's main room is discrimination.

[Cabdullahi]

if women and men prayed side by side touching each other in our mosques then i would never go to the mosque to pray i would just observe the salah at home because at home i can achieve some sort of focus.

but praying whilst tender flesh is touching against my elbow , strong perfume going up my nose and soft voice whispering into my ear....what salah will i be praying ?


absolutely nothing

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[ardianto]

but praying whilst tender flesh is touching against my elbow , strong perfume going up my nose and soft voice whispering into my ear....what salah will i be praying ?

Praying whilst tender flesh is touching against your elbow ?. Wait, ...... tender flesh ? ...... tender flesh ? ...... tender flesh ? .......... hei !, what are you doing ?!, salat side by side with women is forbidden !.

Men and women are allowed to salat in the same room but not in free mixing like this.

If you find a woman use perfume that too strong and it disturbs other jama'ah, you can tell her take a position that far from other jama'ah. And if you hear women voice when salat jama'ah, you must tell them, according to rule of mix genders salat jama'ah, women are not allowed to say anything.

[Insaanah]

:sl:
^ I don't think you understood brother Abdullahii's post. He is saying it is wrong.
:sl:

[ardianto]

:sl:
^ I don't think you understood brother Abdullahii's post. He is saying it is wrong.
:sl:

:sl:

I don't think you understood brother Abdullahii. He has good imaginations.

He did not really salat in free mixing, but he imagined what will happen if he salat side by side with women. I know it, I know him. :)

:sl:

[جوري]

:sl:

there was no partition during the time of the prophet, men and women just didn't touch each other, and they certainly didn't go to the mosque to gawk at each other and more importantly still, they didn't have a segregated society.

I was listening to a lecture by. Alwalaki the other day, and he was speaking about the trials of the grave.

he said that Asma bint abu bakr (ra) was in the masjid as rasool Allah (PBUH) was giving a khutba about the trials in the grave, when the whole masjid broke out in sobs, she couldn't hear what rasool Allah (PBUH) said so she asked a (MAN) next to her, what rasool Allah (PBUH) said, and he told her, that he'd said that we'd be tried in the grave with that which is similar to facing the dajjal. Now I don't want to turn this into a lecture on tribulations of the grave but to make a point. The religion of Islam is easy, people make it difficult for themselves that privately they do the opposite because they are too constrained by demands that weren't imposed on them. No talking, no leaving the house, no getting an education with kuffar, no wearing of good clean clothes not to attract, not getting a decent job because it you'll have to deal with the opposite gender no this no that. Surely we all have self control and know how to control the sight and the touch.. Do you want to touch everyone and speak with everyone and gawk at everyone you see down the streets? Surely one overcomes this folly of youth say after turning 11 yrs of age?

Allah swt knows best. but my understanding of early Muslims, from ahadith and the Quran is that they were normal functioning societies that managed to be Muslim and conquer half the world because they had substance and weren't too concerned with superficialities...


and Allah swt knows best

:w:

[cat eyes]

:sl: sister or brother i strongly believe it shouldnt be allowed for the women to enter the front of the mosque.. why? well i will tell u why and it has been happening a few times ive seen it with my own eyes, the brothers waiting for the sisters to come out so they can watch them or try and chat with them alone. sis/bro its NOT discrimination at all. its simply a protection from the shaytan. thats so disgraceful to hear muslims protesting against a mosque

[cat eyes]

and i just want to clarify another important thing if people have a little bit of common sense and understanding(no offense) but more men attend the mosque then women thats why obviously they have to make the mens part huge because a man is meant to attend the mosque everyday while women pray in there homes(where a woman is meant to do her 5times salah)...now just imagine the amount of men that will attend the friday prayer? can u imagine sister, there will be a couple of hundred anyway. instead of complaining why not raise money to make the mosque more big?? and u will also get rewarded by Allah swt. why create all this?

[ardianto]

:sl: sister or brother i strongly believe it shouldnt be allowed for the women to enter the front of the mosque.. why? well i will tell u why and it has been happening a few times ive seen it with my own eyes, the brothers waiting for the sisters to come out so they can watch them or try and chat with them alone. sis/bro its NOT discrimination at all. its simply a protection from the shaytan. thats so disgraceful to hear muslims protesting against a mosque

Do you mean those brothers are shaytan ?.

[Salahudeen]

Do you mean those brothers are shaytan ?.

she means that shaytaan tempts those brothers enticing them to look, and those brothers are protected from the temptation of shaytaan by having seperate entrances.

not that they are shaytaan.

[ardianto]

she means that shaytaan tempts those brothers enticing them to look, and those brothers are protected from the temptation of shaytaan by having seperate entrances.

not that they are shaytaan.

I know, brother. I did not serious with my question.

But if you read sister cat eyes post with your sense of humour, it heard like those brothers are shaytan. :D

[CosmicPathos]

I think there was no need for segregation during Prophet's time because well, the Prophet was in front of people's eyes ... they were really scared of the the zina of eyes. + they did not have any means to introduce black and white segregation in every part of life.

[sevgi]

I think there was no need for segregation during Prophet's time because well, the Prophet was in front of people's eyes ... they were really scared of the the zina of eyes. + they did not have any means to introduce black and white segregation in every part of life.

Let us also remember that women couldnt even be recognised back then.

Im sure that if some sisters todays would walk in next to the men, even though they are dressed in hijab etc, these men would be distracted from focusing solely on Allah.

[sevgi]

^^ and to be fair, sisters would be distracted also. It is in our nature. Of course meeting brothers or sisters in a mosque is probably the best place to find a guy or girl for marriage, but not when our focus should be Allah and prayer only.

[cat eyes]

I know, brother. I did not serious with my question.

But if you read sister cat eyes post with your sense of humour, it heard like those brothers are shaytan. :D

humm okay maybe i should be careful how i post next time as not to offend any brothers ;D :X but what we have to understand is that shaytan is with us everywhere whispering to us to do haraam things. it is a daily struggle and as i said i have seen brothers purposely waiting to catch a sister so he can watch her. shaytan is always going to be there ESPECIALLY when we try to implement islam as much as possible like going to mosque and things.. hes going to be there whispering to us and try and break us and we will be crying later for allowing such a fitnah to happen.

[ardianto]

Sister cat eyes, you are a female but you agree if in masjid men and women are pray in different room.

If I disagree with the rule women are not allowed to pray in main hall, this is because I see that is unfair. But if women themselves want to pray in second hall, of course is unfair if I must force women to pray in main hall. :)

[cat eyes]

Sister cat eyes, you are a female but you agree if in masjid men and women are pray in different room.

If I disagree with the rule women are not allowed to pray in main hall, this is because I see that is unfair. But if women themselves want to pray in second hall, of course is unfair if I must force women to pray in main hall. :)

brother you should not feel that its unfair because women get more rewards from Allah swt for praying in her home so you should NEVER see it as being unfair :)

[ardianto]

brother you should not feel that its unfair because women get more rewards from Allah swt for praying in her home so you should NEVER see it as being unfair :)

Hmm,.....yes, you right.

[ardianto]

If I disagree with the rule women are not allowed to pray in main hall, this is because I see that is unfair.

:sl: I am back.

I was too fast to make a conclusion "pray in different room is unfair". That's because I never see masjid with two rooms in my place. I found a complain from sister in web, but when I read again I found that was happened in masjid with single hall where sister are not allowed to pray in this masjid hall but must pray in other room that not pray room, i.e study room or even terrace. This is unfair, of course. But also I read some experiences from sisters who prayed in masjid with two sections, there was no complain from them and I think this is not unfair.

I have an experience. In my city, there is a hotel that has two convention rooms. Second room beside the first room is smaller but there is no different in luxury and facility. One day when I visited this hotel I was very surprised when I saw those rooms became one large hall and the wall between those rooms was gone. Then I noticed, the wall between those rooms actually not wall but 'lift up' type door with good design that looked like a wall.

I think we can adopt this design when we build a masjid. We can have masjid with single or double hall in a simple way, just open or close the 'wall'.

[sevgi]

:sl: I am back.

I was too fast to make a conclusion "pray in different room is unfair". That's because I never see masjid with two rooms in my place. I found a complain from sister in web, but when I read again I found that was happened in masjid with single hall where sister are not allowed to pray in this masjid hall but must pray in other room that not pray room, i.e study room or even terrace. This is unfair, of course. But also I read some experiences from sisters who prayed in masjid with two sections, there was no complain from them and I think this is not unfair.

I have an experience. In my city, there is a hotel that has two convention rooms. Second room beside the first room is smaller but there is no different in luxury and facility. One day when I visited this hotel I was very surprised when I saw those rooms became one large hall and the wall between those rooms was gone. Then I noticed, the wall between those rooms actually not wall but 'lift up' type door with good design that looked like a wall.

I think we can adopt this design when we build a masjid. We can have masjid with single or double hall in a simple way, just open or close the 'wall'.

Salams brother,

You knw what I found very interesting? I spent two weeks in Indonesia; a week in the city and a week in a more rural area. What I found in the city was that at smaller masjids, men and women would share the wudu area. I found it kind of odd watching women sit beside men, roll up their sleeves and pants and take wudu.

In fact, at one bathroom (not at a masjid), I had to ask the male attendant to leave coz I had to take my hijab off to take wudu...he didnt seem to want to leave so I had to get a female attendant to tell him off...

Nevertheless, the masjids were segregated in whatever way possible. How logical is it for a man and a woman to take wudu beside eachother and then separate for prayer?

Again, this was only in small masjid thingys (which are everywhere). Is it just the people who don't really care or is there a system which finds communal wudu taking normal?

[ardianto]

In fact, at one bathroom (not at a masjid), I had to ask the male attendant to leave coz I had to take my hijab off to take wudu...he didnt seem to want to leave so I had to get a female attendant to tell him off...

Maybe he did not understand. Not easy to find someone who understand English language in Indonesia.

And about wudu area. Honestly, sister, your post made me laugh for few minutes. ;D. I just realized if we are in Indonesia never care about this. Actually, those wudu area are for men, and women usually use bathroom or wudu in their home before go to masjid. We never realize it because women never protest about the wudu area.

But in grand masjids, there are wudu areas for women.

Thanks for your input sister. :)

[cat eyes]

:sl: I am back.

I was too fast to make a conclusion "pray in different room is unfair". That's because I never see masjid with two rooms in my place. I found a complain from sister in web, but when I read again I found that was happened in masjid with single hall where sister are not allowed to pray in this masjid hall but must pray in other room that not pray room, i.e study room or even terrace. This is unfair, of course. But also I read some experiences from sisters who prayed in masjid with two sections, there was no complain from them and I think this is not unfair.

I have an experience. In my city, there is a hotel that has two convention rooms. Second room beside the first room is smaller but there is no different in luxury and facility. One day when I visited this hotel I was very surprised when I saw those rooms became one large hall and the wall between those rooms was gone. Then I noticed, the wall between those rooms actually not wall but 'lift up' type door with good design that looked like a wall.

I think we can adopt this design when we build a masjid. We can have masjid with single or double hall in a simple way, just open or close the 'wall'.

i honestly cannot see whats unfair about it. from what i was thought about islam is that Allah loves the woman so much that he made it easier for her to pray in her home and not have to travel to any mosque.(this is why haven little space at the mosque dose not really bother me and i don't complain) i honestly could not see myself getting up and out everyday to go to mosque to do my salah it would be very tiring.. on top of that Allah gives the woman rewards for it subhanAllah i dont know what the issue is really.

if a woman had to pray in the mosque everyday she'd probably complain about that to. humans are never happy i think. i do go to my local mosque every week we have a lot of space but not as big as the mens area,they also made the mens part more comfy..cos brothers travel there everyday so they tend to stay most of the day there but my home is more comfy.

[Esther462]

When I travile to my local mosque. iI have to pray in a room at the top of the building and this room isn't as nice as the men's rooms and the womens rooms are used as the school at the weekends so women can't pray in the mosque at weekends.

[ardianto]

i honestly cannot see whats unfair about it. from what i was thought about islam is that Allah loves the woman so much that he made it easier for her to pray in her home and not have to travel to any mosque.(this is why haven little space at the mosque dose not really bother me and i don't complain) i honestly could not see myself getting up and out everyday to go to mosque to do my salah it would be very tiring.. on top of that Allah gives the woman rewards for it subhanAllah i dont know what the issue is really.

You did not complain because you prayed in masjid. And if you prayed in little space, that's because they were fair. Mostly jama'ah in masjid are men, of course men need larger space.
Read again my post above. I talked about masjid where women are not allowed to pray in masjid hall but must pray in other place/room that not masjid.
From my knowledge, there is no any ayaah or hadits that say : women are not allowed to pray in masjid. If Allah permit women pray in masjid, why men must forbid women pray in masjid ?. I know, women are ordered to pray in their homes. But actually that is when they are in their homes. When they are not in their homes, like in traveling, women must pray in masjid because this is better than pray in car park.

if a woman had to pray in the mosque everyday she'd probably complain about that to. humans are never happy i think. i do go to my local mosque every week we have a lot of space but not as big as the mens area,they also made the mens part more comfy..cos brothers travel there everyday so they tend to stay most of the day there but my home is more comfy.

In my place, usually women pray in masjid only in ramadan (taraweeh) or in Eid. In daily, they pray in their homes, except women in traveling.
Read post from sister sevgi. She ask about wudu area in Indonesian masjids. Yes, in Indonesian small masjids, there are no wudu area for women. That's because almost all of jama'ah in Indonesian masjids are men.

[Asiyah3]

In my place, usually women pray in masjid only in ramadan (taraweeh) or in Eid. In daily, they pray in their homes, except women in traveling.

Someone seems to know too much! :X