Illegal sexual intercourse in Christianity

[Asiyah3]

I couldn't find a thread about this topic, so...

What does Christianity say about relationships outside marriage?

Edit: "outside marriage" also includes relationships before marriage

About my thread, I'd like to include many things in it. I chose the subject "illegal sexual intercourse" in Christianity, coz' that's one of the things I'd like to know at the moment.

My intention for this thread is seeking knowledge also there will be critics.

[جوري]

they are encouraged the same way homosexuality is, because 'Jesus' loves you!

[mkh4JC]

It is forbidden. Jesus said it this way:

'And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.' Matthew 19: 9.

[Asiyah3]

It is forbidden. Jesus said it this way:

'And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.' Matthew 19: 9.

Peace,
Thank you for telling me the answer and also quoting the verse from the Bible.

I assume soon other Christians will come and tell me "nope, dat' was for da' Jews only" :D

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[Asiyah3]

they are encouraged the same way homosexuality is, because 'Jesus' loves you!

Thanks sis Skye :) This aroused lots of questions into my head about Christianity.

It really makes me wonder if all sins have been forgiven then what is the idea of doing good deeds? What is the idea of this and that being "forbidden"?

I find Christianity to be very unjust. Just believe in Jesus (pbuh) and you'll go to Heaven without punishment coz sins have been forgiven? So if one only says I believe in Jesus as God/Son of God then he goes to heaven? What is the Idea of all this? I'm sorry but I don't see any logic in Christianity at all :hmm: Why does Jesus (pbuh) have to pay for other's sins? (I think this may have been discussed but I don't remember)

Now I'll go to sleep, insha'lLah

[glo]

I agree with Fedos. Sex outside of marriage is not permitted in Christianity.

However - and I may be the only one who wonders about this - I sometimes ponder what is meant by 'marriage' in the context of Jesus' time.
I could be wrong, but I doubt that the marriage contract would have been completed in the same way as it is now.
Does anybody know what 'marriage' meant in Jesus' times?
Was there a ceremony? If so, what was it?

I think most Christians, even very liberal ones, agree that sex belongs within the context of a stable and committed relationship. I suppose some consider the written piece of paper that comes with a legal marriage less important than the commitment made (in one's heart) in front of each other and in front of God.

[جوري]

Thanks sis Skye :) This aroused lots of questions into my head about Christianity. I'll be posting them into Woodrow's "questions to Christians"-thread.

:sl:

difficult to know where Christians stand on any issue as they constantly kowtow to the tides. I have in fact formulated this opinion after a member here proved with 'modern science' that homosexuality is a trait people are born with.. the same application can also be used for sex outside of marriage, fornication is a trait people are just born with..


:w:

[Asiyah3]

:sl:

difficult to know where Christians stand on any issue as they constantly kowtow to the tides. I have in fact formulated this opinion after a member here proved with 'modern science' that homosexuality is a trait people are born with.. the same application can also be used for sex outside of marriage, fornication is a trait people are just born with..


:w:

:wa:

You made a very good point.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you_muslim_;

Mathew 5
Adultery
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Life is full of temptations, and we struggle with our faith.

Blessings

Eric

[Asiyah3]

I agree with Fedos. Sex outside of marriage is not permitted in Christianity.

And that includes sex before marriage? May I also ask where is the limit? When one says "sex not permitted", how about dating, kissing, touching a stranger?


However - and I may be the only one who wonders about this - I sometimes ponder what is meant by 'marriage' in the context of Jesus' time.
I could be wrong, but I doubt that the marriage contract would have been completed in the same way as it is now.
Does anybody know what 'marriage' meant in Jesus' times?
Was there a ceremony? If so, what was it?

I think most Christians, even very liberal ones, agree that sex belongs within the context of a stable and committed relationship.

I wish you'd be right, but I disagree. It's very common- no no the other way -- It's very rare to meet someone who doesn't find it strange to marry without having sex.

I suppose some consider the written piece of paper that comes with a legal marriage less important than the commitment made (in one's heart) in front of each other and in front of God.

It's not only about a piece-of-paper. It's very weird, I started this thread asking about Christianity and you people believe in God and now it seems to me that these people decide whether a piece-of-paper is important or not. I don't see God's will being considered at all!

[Asiyah3]

Greetings and peace be with you_muslim_;

Mathew 5
Adultery
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Life is full of temptations, and we struggle with our faith.

Blessings

Eric

Peace,

A big "thank you" to you, Eric

Thanks for those Bibical verses. I
They sound logical and this very interesting:

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. "

Does it advice men to lower their gaze?

Life is full of temptations, and we struggle with our faith.

Very true Eric :statisfie

Edit: I'll be answering you all tomorrow, Insha'lLah

[Shahreaz]

Leviticus 20 (NIV)

" 10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible."

But now a days in West, sexual relation with other man's wife is normal to them and they are now supporting Gay/Lesbian rights :P

[hanif_]

:sl:

With all the positive contributions on this forum and so much to learn what was the reason for creating this thread?

This is what Allah has directed Muslims to do and the explanation Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) gave regarding the Kitab.

3:64 (Y. Ali) Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).

Narrated Abu Huraira: "The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' ' (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460)"

Muslims base what they do and say upon evidence and not conjecture.

FEDO has already provided the evidence that Adultery and Fornication isn't permitted in Christianity.

The Christian Zealots go to get lengths to distort and defame Islam with disinformation and lies. Muslims should avoid these methods.

4:135 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.

5:8 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

[Asiyah3]

But now a days in West, sexual relation with other man's wife is normal to them and they are now supporting Gay/Lesbian rights :P

I see nowadays these so-called "open-relationships" where the man is free to sleep with other women and the woman to sleep with others. No morals at all!

And not even that. Glo talked about "commitment in heart" but that's not what I see. You say commitment, but there is no commitment... I see people not taking relationships seriously anymore :hmm:... Of course there are many of them who do have morals, praise be to God!

[Asiyah3]

:sl:

With all the positive contributions on this forum and so much to learn what was the reason for creating this thread?

The reason --> We all worship the same God

JazakalLahu khairan for reminding me many things from your post :statisfie

[glo]

However - and I may be the only one who wonders about this - I sometimes ponder what is meant by 'marriage' in the context of Jesus' time.
I could be wrong, but I doubt that the marriage contract would have been completed in the same way as it is now.
Does anybody know what 'marriage' meant in Jesus' times?
Was there a ceremony? If so, what was it?

I think most Christians, even very liberal ones, agree that sex belongs within the context of a stable and committed relationship. I suppose some consider the written piece of paper that comes with a legal marriage less important than the commitment made (in one's heart) in front of each other and in front of God.

I think most Christians, even very liberal ones, agree that sex belongs within the context of a stable and committed relationship.

I wish you'd be right, but I disagree. It's very common- no no the other way -- It's very rare to meet someone who doesn't find it strange to marry without having sex.

It's not only about a piece-of-paper. It's very weird, I started this thread asking about Christianity and you people believe in God and now it seems to me that these people decide whether a piece-of-paper is important or not. I don't see God's will being considered at all!

The issue I am pondering lies exactly with your last sentence, which I highlighted in bold.

Knowing that I am amongst gracious friends here, let me make myself a little vulnerable and use my own situation as an example to demonstrate the 'marriage certificate' (i.e. piece of paper) vs God's blessing issue:

My (now) husband and I met 25 years ago. We have been living together as a sexually active couple for 24 years. During that time, we have been completely committed to each other and totally faithful. We had two children (outside of marriage) and got married 11 years ago. Our wedding was a legal one in a registry office; because my husband is not a Christians we did not have a church wedding, so we did not make out wedding vows in a religious setting.

Now, my questions is at what point did (if at all) our relationship become valid in God's eyes?

1. Right from the start, because we were committed and faithful to each other?
2. After we got married legally?
3. Not at all, because we did not have a church wedding?

I would be interested to hear your opinions.
(I anticipate that many Muslims may find this discussion quite irrelevant, whilst I am interested in the opinions of Muslims, I would particularly like to hear from Christians and those of other faiths)

[glo]

And not even that. Glo talked about "commitment in heart" but that's not what I see. You say commitment, but there is no commitment... I see people not taking relationships seriously anymore :hmm:... Of course there are many of them who do have morals, praise be to God!

I am clear that I refer to 'stable and committed relationships', and I am musing whether God would consider those on a same level as marriage.

A stable family is very much at the heart of Christian teaching, and as I said before, I cannot think of any Christian - however liberal in their views! - who would condone extra-marital affairs or open marriages or one-night-stands ...

I agree with you that people give up on relationships much too easily nowadays.
Being in a life-long relationship is very hard work, and requires a constant working and willingness to work with each other. It includes pain, frustration and disagreements, which need even greater amounts of love, patience and grace to overcome!

Many people today have not been taught that by example - so at the first sign of difficulties or the waning of sexual attraction, they think the relationship is wrong and look elsewhere ...

That's a big problem in our society - but I am not sure that MARRIAGE alone is the answer ... :hmm:

[Trumble]

But now a days in West, sexual relation with other man's wife is normal to them and they are now supporting Gay/Lesbian rights :P

Who is?! The question was about Christianity, and while some Christians may 'support' gay and lesbian rights many do not. 'Rights' is also a loaded word, does it mean absence of discrimination or legality of sexual practice, or 'marriage' or the equivalent? Many support the first, but oppose the second.

As to the other, while sexual relations with another man's wife certainly happen, it's a joke to suggest that is accepted as 'normal' behaviour in any 'Western' marriage, let alone one between practicing Christians.

[KAding]

Two points:

1. I don't personally know anyone who approves of cheating in a relationship, that includes Christians. To claim cheating is somehow generally accepted in the West is nonsense.
2. I think the subject of this thread betrays a very legalistic approach to religion. Christianity IMHO is not generally perceived as a legal system. The question in Christianity is one of faith and morality, not legality.

[glo]

Two points:
1. I don't personally know anyone who approves of cheating in a relationship, that includes Christians. To claim cheating is somehow generally accepted in the West is nonsense.

Hi Kading

That's an interesting point, and one I was thinking myself.
Why do you think people outside 'the religious arena' hold that moral value? Where does it come from?

2. I think the subject of this thread betrays a very legalistic approach to religion. Christianity IMHO is not generally perceived as a legal system. The question in Christianity is one of faith and morality, not legality.

I agree in that I perceive Islam to be much more legalistic than Christianity.

I believe that Jesus challenged legalism severely. It was one of the reasons the scholar and religious people of his day were so opposed to him. On several recorded occasions and in his teaching did he put human need before the blind following of the Jewish laws.

Here is a beautiful example:

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"

He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
(Mark 2:23-28)

[hanif_]

I agree in that I perceive Islam to be much more legalistic than Christianity.

I believe that Jesus challenged legalism severely. It was one of the reasons the scholar and religious people of his day were so opposed to him. On several recorded occasions and in his teaching did he put human need before the blind following of the Jewish laws.
Here is a beautiful example:

Peace be to you glo:

I wondered why this thread was even created because it would only create the emotions and response from Christian forum members when based upon feelings and not evidence. If illegal sexual intercourse wasn't an issue in the major religions it wouldn't have been prohibited.

Islam is a way of life.

Just as intelligent people wouldn't attribute the acts of a few to the tenets of Christianity I request that you don't attribute the application by some of what you view as a legalistic practice of Islam.

There are over 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world and are everyday people. Muslims laugh, nurture their children, work and occupy all types of professions.

Islam is based on a Theocracy (Governance by Allah's laws) but is experiencing the absence of the Khalifah (Head Muslim Ummah).

Based upon information from Christian Scholars Jesus stated in the bible
Matthew 5:17:

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
English Standard Version (©2001)
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.


The Book of Matthew writing is attributed to Matthew. Assumed written sometime between CE 55 and 75.



There is not enough space to begin a scholarly dialogue on the history of how the separation of laws was established by Paul propagation of what Christianity is today. Paul was very literate and spoke several languages and was originally an avowed enemy of the teachings of Isa (AS) (Jesus) according to Christian history.


Laws are required to run a nation based on Theocracy verses the man created Church and State separation attributed to John Locke and some cases Thomas Jefferson.

Those forum members capable of addressing these issues are not always available and that is why some of this threads get by.



I request that the creators of these threads reread the forum rules on posting.

[Asiyah3]

The issue I am pondering lies exactly with your last sentence, which I highlighted in bold.

That's what I ponder greatly. And it sure makes me wonder, does marriage mean nothing to Christians?

I would be interested to hear your opinions.
(I anticipate that many Muslims may find this discussion quite irrelevant,

Glo, in my case I only try to undrestand Christianity.

[Asiyah3]

I am clear that I refer to 'stable and committed relationships', and I am musing whether God would consider those on a same level as marriage.

I undrestand you more now. But do you consider a typical couple being together as girlfriend-boyfriend "stable and committed relationship"?

A stable family is very much at the heart of Christian teaching,

That's what I thought

and as I said before, I cannot think of any Christian - however liberal in their views! - who would condone extra-marital affairs or open marriages or one-night-stands ...

About extra-marital affairs and open marriages you're right but about One-night-stands depends. I don't know if you meant being married+one-night-stands aren't condoned or single's practising one-night-stands? For the latter I disagree, they are no abnormity here anymore. Though regarding open marriages I'd love to hear Supreme's opinion on this matter.

I agree with you that people give up on relationships much too easily nowadays.

Being in a life-long relationship is very hard work, and requires a constant working and willingness to work with each other.

That's what I was referring to when I responded to your answer of 'stable and committed relationships'.

It includes pain, frustration and disagreements, which need even greater amounts of love, patience and grace to overcome!

Many people day have not been taught that by example - so at the first sign of difficulties or the waning of sexual attraction, they think the relationship is wrong and look elsewhere ...

Exactly. That answers many things.

That's a big problem in our society - but I am not sure that MARRIAGE alone is the answer ... :hmm:

I think you've undrestood my posts.

[Asiyah3]

Who is?! The question was about Christianity, and while some Christians may 'support' gay and lesbian rights

Yes, many do.

many do not.

If it weren't for this forum, I would have thought that the majority of Christians thinks homosexuality is alright.

'Rights' is also a loaded word, does it mean absence of discrimination or legality of sexual practice, or 'marriage' or the equivalent? Many support the first, but oppose the second.

Good point, Trumble

As to the other, while sexual relations with another man's wife certainly happen, it's a joke to suggest that is accepted as 'normal' behaviour in any 'Western' marriage, let alone one between practicing Christians.

True

[Asiyah3]

2. I think the subject of this thread betrays a very legalistic approach to religion. Christianity IMHO is not generally perceived as a legal system. The question in Christianity is one of faith and morality, not legality.

I try my best to keep this all about Christianity. But I see some telling me what is right and what not. I mosty want God's will in christianity.

[hanif_]

That's what I ponder greatly

I would be interested to hear your opinions.

Glo, in my case I only try to understand Christianity.

:sl:

Ukh _muslim_:

Subhanallah! Astagfirullah!

we will attempt to put the best construction on your inquiry into glo's personal encounters. Attempting to understand a persons religion can be acquired via researching the internet. Thousands of sites.

The issue of requesting information regarding someones personal encounters on an Islamic forum is becoming offensive.

I plea with you to discontinue this course of inquiry. Insha Allah

6:68 (Y. Ali) When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.

19:62 (Y. Ali) They will not there hear any vain discourse, but only salutations of Peace: And they will have therein their sustenance, morning and evening.

[Asiyah3]

I agree in that I perceive Islam to be much more legalistic than Christianity.

Oh, I think now I undrestand what Kading meant. Does this mean that I have to generally ask Christians of their opinions and views rather than looking from your religion?

I believe that Jesus challenged legalism severely.

I don't really know how to put my thoughts into words. I think if I ask you this question, it'll lighten my thoughts or at least I hope so. Do you think of Jesus (pbuh) as an example? Do you try to follow his example? :hmm: Anyone can answer this question

On several recorded occasions and in his teaching did he put human need before the blind following of the Jewish laws.

May I ask what is there contrary/may affect human need in the Jewish law?

[Asiyah3]

[QUOTE=hanif_;1285305]Peace be to you glo:

I wondered why this thread was even created because it would only create the emotions and response from Christian forum members when based upon feelings and not evidence.

Yes, I notice that now. I see Christianity now in a very different way. Like I answered Kading, I wanted God's will in Christianity, but now I wonder if there is such. The only response that I've been very satisfied with till now is Eric's response. My respects to him :statisfie Thanks to him again.

If illegal sexual intercourse wasn't an issue in the major religions it wouldn't have been prohibited.

Yes, That's something that should be evident by common sense.

I request that the creators of these threads reread the forum rules on posting.

I will do that though I hope this thread will not be closed, coz' I haven't still gotten an answer to the questions I was thinking about not even the original question completely. Also as I said I might bring other matters into this thread also. And I hope to get an aswer to them. About my first question I was answered about a married person having a relationship outside marriage, but what about a single before marriage and I'll bolden this In Chistianity ... these questions of mine are very simple.

[Asiyah3]

:sl:

Ukh _muslim_:

Subhanallah! Astagfirullah!

we will attempt to put the best construction on your inquiry into glo's personal encounters. Attempting to understand a persons religion can be acquired via researching the internet. Thousands of sites.

The issue of requesting information regarding someones personal encounters on an Islamic forum is becoming offensive.

Thank you very much for opening my eyes, I didn't realize. You're right that was very foolish and disrespectful of me! I edited my post now and I sincerily apologize. Again sorry, sorry, Glo.
I am very grateful and appreciate all of your responses. Actually when I wrote that my point was just that what Glo mentioned next already (I hadn't read it) that people don't work on their relationship enough. Sorry

JazakalLahu khairan for commenting on it :statisfie

I plea with you to discontinue this course of inquiry. Insha Allah

I'll try my best. I want to know about pre-marital relationships in Christianity though now I suspect whether there is such, also whether Jesus pbuh is an example to them.

6:68 (Y. Ali) When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.

19:62 (Y. Ali) They will not there hear any vain discourse, but only salutations of Peace: And they will have therein their sustenance, morning and evening.

JazakalLahu khairan, that verse made me realize.

[Predator]

Thanks sis Skye :) This aroused lots of questions into my head about Christianity.

It really makes me wonder if all sins have been forgiven then what is the idea of doing good deeds? What is the idea of this and that being "forbidden"?

I find Christianity to be very unjust. Just believe in Jesus (pbuh) and you'll go to Heaven without punishment coz sins have been forgiven? So if one only says I believe in Jesus as God/Son of God then he goes to heaven? What is the Idea of all this? I'm sorry but I don't see any logic in Christianity at all :hmm: Why does Jesus (pbuh) have to pay for other's sins? (I think this may have been discussed but I don't remember)

Yeah christianity is unjust to the people before Jesus, as the only course to salvation was to accept the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh) only 2000 years and the law of Moses is worthless, therefore, God did not see fit to allow those born before Jesus (pbuh) including countless previous prophets to enter paradise, but rather allowed them to remain stained with the sin of Adam and gave them a very strict and disciplined law that was totally useless and could never relieve them of this hereditary stain and that These people would never receive true salvation.

Crucifixion and Salvation through Jesus is a fiction invented by the polytheist trinitarian pagans nearly 300 years after Jesus (PBUH) departed to heaven who only follow conjecture (fiction). Quran 4:157

Back on topic

'And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.' Matthew 19: 9.

“The adulterer fornicator marries not but an adulteress fornicatress or a Mushrikah; and the adulteress –fornicatress, none marries her except an adulterer — fornicater or a Mushrik. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers (of Islamic Monotheism)”

[al-Nur 24:3]

Mathew 5
30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away

And they follow the practice of cutting off the hands for theft in arabia, thus following the laws of Jesus.

[Asiyah3]

Yeah christianity is unjust to the people before Jesus, as the only course to salvation was to accept the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh) only 2000 years and the law of Moses is worthless, therefore, God did not see fit to allow those born before Jesus (pbuh) including countless previous prophets to enter paradise, but rather allowed them to remain stained with the sin of Adam and gave them a very strict and disciplined law that was totally useless and could never relieve them of this hereditary stain and that These people would never receive true salvation.

Very true... Why did I not think of that? :hmm:

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.' Matthew 19: 9.

Can someone explain this verse for me, please?

And they follow the practice of cutting off the hands for theft in arabia, thus following the laws of Jesus.

Yeah, I found that verse pretty interesting.

[Amadeus85]

It is a place to say important thing - No christian nowadays should say what christianity says about this or that. Not now, after the eastern schism and especially after (so called) reformation.

We can not speak against facts ladies and gentlemen. How I, roman catholic, can say what pentecostals, baptists, anabaptists, anglicans and methodists say about sexual intercourse?
Nothing.
Just like baptists, anglican, methodist can't say what christianity say about this or that, because they don't even make majority of christians in the world.

Unless we agree that christianity are divided into three major groups - catholics, orthodox and protestants, making such topics has no sense at all.

This topic should be named like this - What protestants say about...or What catholics say about... or What orthodox say about.

Otherwise making such topics has completely no sense. That's my opinion.

After reformation there is no one christianity, it is a sad fact.

The roman- catholic opinion of sexual intercourse, just like opinion of using contraception and abortion is same like 100 years ago and it will stay unchangeable for the rest of this world. It's forbidden.

[Asiyah3]

It is a place to say important thing - No christian nowadays should say what christianity says about this or that. Not now, after the eastern schism and especially after (so called) reformation.

We can not speak against facts ladies and gentlemen. How I, roman catholic, can say what pentecostals, baptists, anabaptists, anglicans and methodists say about sexual intercourse?
Nothing.
Just like baptists, anglican, methodist can't say what christianity say about this or that, because they don't even make majority of christians in the world.

Unless we agree that christianity are divided into three major groups - catholics, orthodox and protestants, making such topics has no sense at all.

This topic should be named like this - What protestants say about...or What catholics say about... or What orthodox say about.

Otherwise making such topics has completely no sense. That's my opinion.

After reformation there is no one christianity, it is a sad fact.

The roman- catholic opinion of sexual intercourse, just like opinion of using contraception and abortion is same like 100 years ago and it will stay unchangeable for the rest of this world. It's forbidden.

Oh, that's something I didn't consider at all. Maybe because I thought you all follow the Bible.

Then I'll spell it like this:

1. What do protestants say about...

2 What catholics say about...

3. What orthodox say about...

Premarital sex?

[Asiyah3]

I think this thread is a bit messy, so I'll try to summerize my questions:

1. Now I've got an answer that extra-marital affairs are forbidden in Christianity.

-What if the couple decides to have an "open-marriage"? Sorry I don't know the right term

2. 1. What do protestants say about...

2 What catholics say about...

3. What orthodox say about...

Premarital sex?

4. Do you think of Jesus's way of doing things (pbuh) as an "example"/"way of life"/teaching? Do you try to follow his example?

[Supreme]

About extra-marital affairs and open marriages you're right but about One-night-stands depends. I don't know if you meant being married+one-night-stands aren't condoned or single's practising one-night-stands? For the latter I disagree, they are no abnormity here anymore. Though regarding open marriages I'd love to hear Supreme's opinion on this matter.

OK, here's my opinion on the matter:

Adultery is a sin. The Bible makes this very clear on several occasions. The liberal Christian, such as myself, can't try and sugercoat this fact or say it's OK so long as the adulterers aren't married. My opinion is that open marriages, pre marital relationship sex and post marital sex is wrong.

However, here's where my opinion differs to more conservative Christians: I don't think it's that bad. Sure, it's prohibited, but I believe it's a pretty minor sin in the general scheme of things. It's like that school rule about running in the corriders- it's about something minor, and it isn't actually very serious at all, despite being prohibited. It's a worm when compared to other sins- murder, pedophilia, rape, theft, worshipping other gods etc are all far worse.

[Supreme]

Oh, that's something I didn't consider at all. Maybe because I thought you all follow the Bible.

Then I'll spell it like this:

1. What do protestants say about...

2 What catholics say about...

3. What orthodox say about...

Premarital sex?

There's also the views of Anglicans (which is a cross between Catholicism and Protestantism), non denominational Christians and non Trinitarian Christians, although these groups, though still large, are not as large as the massive three groups in Christianity. But I really don't think denominations differ with regard to their views on the matter, but it's more to do with whether you're liberal or conservative.

[Asiyah3]

OK, here's my opinion on the matter:

Adultery is a sin. The Bible makes this very clear on several occasions. The liberal Christian, such as myself, can't try and sugercoat this fact or say it's OK so long as the adulterers aren't married. My opinion is that open marriages, pre marital relationship sex and post marital sex is wrong.

However, here's where my opinion differs to more conservative Christians: I don't think it's that bad. Sure, it's prohibited, but I believe it's a pretty minor sin in the general scheme of things. It's like that school rule about running in the corriders- it's about something minor, and it isn't actually very serious at all, despite being prohibited. It's a worm when compared to other sins- murder, pedophilia, rape, theft, worshipping other gods etc are all far worse.

Thank you for that very comprehensive answer :statisfie I knew your view would be interesting :p

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE]

I think this thread is a bit messy, so I'll try to summerize my questions:


-What if the couple decides to have an "open-marriage"? Sorry I don't know the right term

2. 1. What do protestants say about...

2 What catholics say about...

3. What orthodox say about...

There is no such thing as open marriage in roman catholicism. Marriage is a holy sacrament, between one man and one woman.

BTW the orthodox usually say about morality what catholics do. We differ mostly about the authority of the pope.

[Grace Seeker]

I wondered why this thread was even created because it would only create the emotions and response from Christian forum members when based upon feelings and not evidence. If illegal sexual intercourse wasn't an issue in the major religions it wouldn't have been prohibited.

I think it is a mistake to pose this question in terms of "legality". While we all wish to live by a moral law, quite plainly the law is itself niether moral nor immoral, but amoral. Only people are moral. What the law allows is by definition legal, but the morality of what it allows is determined not by the law but by God.

Now, in my reading of scripture God has declared both in the Old and the New Testaments that sex outside of the marriage covenant is a sin. That is a moral judgment, not a legal one. The question as to whether sex outside of marriage is going to be legal or illegal for a Christian is going to vary depening on when and where they live because the law which defines what is and is not legal is written by human beings and varies accordingly. But the question as to whether or not sex outside of marriage is a moral or immoral act is determined in accordance with God's values not man's law. Certainly people may vary in their own interpretation of what God has revealed, and I recognize that there are instances where God has revealed different standards of behaviors for different groups of people. There are several examples of this: Jews could enter the temple but non-Jews could not. Men could be priests in Judaism but women could not. A woman having her menstrual cycle is restricted from some activities that are free for others to participate in. And another item where a behavior is allowed for some but restricted for others appears to be that people living in a married covenant can have intimate sexual relations and those who are not cannot.

Now do all persons who claim to be adherents of a particular faith actually keep the proscriptions of their faith? No. In fact I know of none that do perfectly. And that some in this thread have cited those who ignore the teachings of the Christian faith and choose to do their own thing and be sexually promiscuous as being representative of Christianity I find offensive. Surely, those same people would be offended if I were to post some of the dispicable websites that advertize to lascivious sensualities of Muslim men as being indicative of the moral character of your typical Muslim. The standard may be an ideal, and it is a shame that in this particular case it is indeed far too often unmet, but it still remains the standard.

Others have already shared the biblical verses here. Let me share what the express discipline (rule) of my church is: "celibacy in singleness and fidelity in marriage."

As far as the additional question that has cropped up in this thread regarding the definition of marriage, we (United Methodists) recognize any that are legally sanctioned by the proper authorities of the government of the land and/or a duly constituted minister of the gospel operating within the bounds of his authority, with the exception that we do not authoize any United Methodist clergy to solemnize or otherwise constitute giving blessing to a homosexual wedding. Whether we should recognize homosexual unions that might be legally entered into apart from us is a new enough issue that we have not formally discussed it and thus have no church law established with regard to it.

[Grace Seeker]

If it weren't for this forum, I would have thought that the majority of Christians thinks homosexuality is alright.

A big mistake that I believe takes place in the world at large, not just among Muslims, but even within the church, is not enough attention to the source of data on which conclusions are reached. This is especially a problem with regard to Christianity when people make judgments about it based on say the overall culture of a country which is believed to be majority Christian.

For example while in the USA probably 80% of the population self-identifies as Christian, a far smaller percentage actually is active in practicing their faith. This means that Christian influence on the culture is not the dominate force that it may be perceived to be. And so what is culturally acceptable is often mistakenly considered condoned by Christianity, when in fact we who take our faith seriously are actually opposed to it. Yet, and here is the hypocricsy which I suppose all human beings from time to time fall into, though on the one hand opposed to that which pervades our culture we are not immune to it, may sin, and still be guilty of it as well.

[Amadeus85]

A big mistake that I believe takes place in the world at large, not just among Muslims, but even within the church, is not enough attention to the source of data on which conclusions are reached. This is especially a problem with regard to Christianity when people make judgments about it based on say the overall culture of a country which is believed to be majority Christian.

For example while in the USA probably 80% of the population self-identifies as Christian, a far smaller percentage actually is active in practicing their faith. This means that Christian influence on the culture is not the dominate force that it may be perceived to be. And so what is culturally acceptable is often mistakenly considered condoned by Christianity, when in fact we who take our faith seriously are actually opposed to it. Yet, and here is the hypocricsy which I suppose all human beings from time to time fall into, though on the one hand opposed to that which pervades our culture we are not immune to it, may sin, and still be guilty of it as well.

Ok but there is a problem with many christian groups who even bless same sex couples, because "Jesus loves all". On anti or pro homo -marriages marches, pastors are on both sides of barricade.

[Asiyah3]

There is no such thing as open marriage in roman catholicism. Marriage is a holy sacrament, between one man and one woman.

BTW the orthodox usually say about morality what catholics do. We differ mostly about the authority of the pope.

Ok :) Thank you for explaining

[Grace Seeker]

I think this thread is a bit messy, so I'll try to summerize my questions:

1. Now I've got an answer that extra-marital affairs are forbidden in Christianity.

-What if the couple decides to have an "open-marriage"? Sorry I don't know the right term

2. 1. What do protestants say about...

2 What catholics say about...

3. What orthodox say about...

Premarital sex?

4. Do you think of Jesus's way of doing things (pbuh) as an "example"/"way of life"/teaching? Do you try to follow his example?

I'm trusting that if you understood my above posts that the answers to these question should reveal themselves (at least as far as United Methodists, a type of protestant Christianity, are concerned). But just in case I've muddied the waters I'll take each question individually:

1. extra-marital affairs are considered a sin, this would include "open-marriage"

2. premarital sex is considered a sin

3. I don't find a question #3.

4. Yes, we do think of Jesus' way of doing things as an example. (Now, he is not an example for everything. For instance he was a Jew and lived according to a Jewish covenant that included a Levitical code that we do not believe he ever asked or intended non-Jews to live by. So, just because Jesus celebrated Passover and went to the Jewish temple doesn't mean that we are likewise compelled to do those same things because even though Jesus was Jewish, most of us are not, nor do we feel compelled to become Jewish or live by Jewish law in order to be good Christians. We are members of a new covenant established through Jesus, but not the old covenant given to Moses.)

[Grace Seeker]

Ok but there is a problem with many christian groups who even bless same sex couples, because "Jesus loves all". On anti or pro homo -marriages marches, pastors are on both sides of barricade.

Oh, I know this is true. And within my own denomination you would find people arguing both points of view. But what I have written above is my denomination's (Unted Methodist) official position on the matter -- at least it is thus far, I personally hope not, but there is the chance that one day the opposing voices might grow large enough to effect a change.

[Asiyah3]

Now do all persons who claim to be adherents of a particular faith actually keep the proscriptions of their faith? No. In fact I know of none that do perfectly. And that some in this thread have cited those who ignore the teachings of the Christian faith and choose to do their own thing and be sexually promiscuous as being representative of Christianity I find offensive. Surely, those same people would be offended if I were to post some of the dispicable websites that advertize to lascivious sensualities of Muslim men as being indicative of the moral character of your typical Muslim. The standard may be an ideal, and it is a shame that in this particular case it is indeed far too often unmet, but it still remains the standard.

I apologize if I've said something wrong on this thread. But please keep in mind that I know very little about Christianity and I'm just learning.

A big thank you for your responding :statisfie

[Asiyah3]

A big mistake that I believe takes place in the world at large, not just among Muslims, but even within the church, is not enough attention to the source of data on which conclusions are reached. This is especially a problem with regard to Christianity when people make judgments about it based on say the overall culture of a country which is believed to be majority Christian.

For example while in the USA probably 80% of the population self-identifies as Christian, a far smaller percentage actually is active in practicing their faith. This means that Christian influence on the culture is not the dominate force that it may be perceived to be. And so what is culturally acceptable is often mistakenly considered condoned by Christianity, when in fact we who take our faith seriously are actually opposed to it. Yet, and here is the hypocricsy which I suppose all human beings from time to time fall into, though on the one hand opposed to that which pervades our culture we are not immune to it, may sin, and still be guilty of it as well.

Now I undrestood when you explained to me the thing about "legal" and "moral" judgment. Now I'd like to ask... aren't all Christians practising?

If you doubt that then isn't this what you wrote an answer to whatever they're not practicing? Can I say that yes they are practising it's just that :

The question as to whether sex outside of marriage is going to be legal or illegal for a Christian is going to vary depening on when and where they live because the law which defines what is and is not legal is written by human beings and varies accordingly. But the question as to whether or not sex outside of marriage is a moral or immoral act is determined in accordance with God's values not man's law. Certainly people may vary in their own interpretation of what God has revealed, and I recognize that there are instances where God has revealed different standards of behaviors for different groups of people.

[aadil77]

I agree with Fedos. Sex outside of marriage is not permitted in Christianity.

However - and I may be the only one who wonders about this - I sometimes ponder what is meant by 'marriage' in the context of Jesus' time.
I could be wrong, but I doubt that the marriage contract would have been completed in the same way as it is now.
Does anybody know what 'marriage' meant in Jesus' times?
Was there a ceremony? If so, what was it?

I think most Christians, even very liberal ones, agree that sex belongs within the context of a stable and committed relationship. I suppose some consider the written piece of paper that comes with a legal marriage less important than the commitment made (in one's heart) in front of each other and in front of God.

Thats one way to cover up for the sins of billions

[Asiyah3]

4. Yes, we do think of Jesus' way of doing things as an example. (Now, he is not an example for everything. For instance he was a Jew and lived according to a Jewish covenant that included a Levitical code that we do not believe he ever asked or intended non-Jews to live by. So, just because Jesus celebrated Passover and went to the Jewish temple doesn't mean that we are likewise compelled to do those same things because even though Jesus was Jewish, most of us are not, nor do we feel compelled to become Jewish or live by Jewish law in order to be good Christians. We are members of a new covenant established through Jesus, but not the old covenant given to Moses.)

And by which principle is the new Covenant made? (Since you told me that Jesus lived according to a Jewish covenant)

Again thank you very much

Peace

[Grace Seeker]

Now I undrestood when you explained to me the thing about "legal" and "moral" judgment. Now I'd like to ask... aren't all Christians practising?

If you doubt that then isn't this what you wrote an answer to whatever they're not practicing? Can I say that yes they are practising it's just that :

No. I don't consider all who self-identify as Christians as being practicing. Maybe I'm being judgmental, but I'll have to risk it. I'm a pastor of a church in a small community. Whenever any dies they want me to do their funeral. Whenever anyone gets married, they want me to solemnize the ceremony. But many never have any desire to be associate with the church beyond those two events in their lives. Not only do they not attend church faithfully, they don't think that there is any reason that they should. They believe what they believe and they don't really care what we in the church believe. (And generally they don't even know what it is that we in the church actually believe.)

So, what you have is a group of people who:
1) don't know what it is the church believes
2) don't care to know what it is the church believes
3) themselves do believe differently than the church believes and teaches
4) don't want to identify themselves with the church or its beliefs
5) do consider themselves very much a part of the world in which they live, and
6) still want to be known by the same name as that which identifies church members and sets them apart from the world.


In other words, it does NOT talk like a duck, walk like a duck, or swim like a duck, or even think of itself as a duck, but it still wants to be called a duck. If these people lived in an predominately Islamic country they would more than likely continue to have the same beliefs and practices they do today, but instead of calling themselves Christians, they would call themselves Muslims. Yet, in truth, they wouldn't be any more Muslim than they are Christian, which is only nominally so (meaning, in name only).

[Asiyah3]

So, what you have is a group of people who:
1) don't know what it is the church believes
2) don't care to know what it is the church believes
3) themselves do believe differently than the church believes and teaches
4) don't want to identify themselves with the church or its beliefs
5) do consider themselves very much a part of the world in which they live, and
6) still want to be known by the same name as that which identifies church members and sets them apart from the world.


In other words, it does NOT talk like a duck, walk like a duck, or swim like a duch, but it still wants to be called a duck. If these people lived in an predominately Islamic country they would more than likely continue to have the same beliefs and practices they do today, but instead of calling themselves Christians, they would call themselves Muslims. Yet, in truth, they wouldn't be any more Muslim than they are Christian, which is only nominally so (meaning, in name only).

I undrestand what you mean, but why should they live as christians? Didn't Jesus pbuh already pay for their sins?

[Grace Seeker]

And by which principle is the new Covenant made? (Since you told me that Jesus lived according to a Jewish covenant)

Again thank you very much

Peace

Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish the law (i.e. the old covenant), but to fulfill it. Our understanding is that this means that he completed it, brought it to a successful resolution, and then told his followers that he was giving them a "new commandment." That command was to love one another as he loved us (John 13:34).

That command is the ethic that those who follow Jesus have for their lives as they live in the new covenant he inaugurated with his self-giving sacrifice on the cross -- "In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you'." (Luke 22:20) And was foretold by the prophet Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

The prophet Hosea also talks about this transformation when God announces that his chosen people, the nation of Israel, have too long lived unfaithfully and broke the covenant he made with them -- covenant which involved far more than just keeping the Levitical code, but most importantly to be a light to the nations that God might be God of all people -- and thus he will himself be faithful to this covenant promise he previously made to Abraham and bring about this victory of a new day in which God is God of all, not just the Jews, but all people. As he says in Hosea:

Hosea 2

21 "In that day I will respond,"
declares the LORD—
"I will respond to the skies,
and they will respond to the earth;

22 and the earth will respond to the grain,
the new wine and oil,
and they will respond to Jezreel.[*]

23 I will plant her for myself in the land;
I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.'
I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people';
and they will say, 'You are my God.' "

[*] Hosea 2:22 Jezreel means God plants

So now, the gentiles and pagans of the world who were not God's people, are invited in Jesus Christ, to become God's people and to say as we do say, "You are my God." But we don't say that as Jews, we say that as former pagans who now belong to the one God, the Jewish God YAHWEH, and the very same God who made himself known to us in the person of Jesus the Jewish Messiah, God's anointed one who reconciled the world to himself through (not Jesus' teaching, but) the atoning work of Jesus on the cross.

[Grace Seeker]

I undrestand what you mean, but why should they live as christians? Didn't Jesus pbuh already pay for their sins?

In one since Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world -- past, present, and future. But this doesn't change the fact that God still wants, nay, demands, that we live in relationship with him. I know it is going to sound like a strange statment, and you must read it in the context of this discussion, but a forgiven sinner can still go to hell.

I say that because forgiven people can turn their backs and walk away from God. Forgiveness means that God no longer holds are sins against us. Sin, in the normal course of things would by itself seperate us from God. But in forgiving us, God who can tolerate no sin refuses to let that sin stand between us and him. But you and I still have free will. We still have a choice to make as to whether to trust in God and enter into a relationship with him -- the implication being that we will also trust him to be Lord of our lives and direct our paths so that we ultimately submit ourselves to God's will rather than our own. Or, we can decide that we are the captain's of our own ship, and go our own way. So, while God may no longer, because of the work of Christ, be holding our sins against us, by refusing even still to conform to the will of God and serve him as Lord, but serving ourselves, are free to exercise our own self will, go our own way, and consequently, deal with the reality that we (by our willful action, i.e. disobedience) have separated ourselves from God. And the judgment on those who don't align themselves with God has not changed, it is still permament separation, and that means hell -- a place that I propose that in this way of thinking God does not so much send us as we freely (albiet, unconsciously) choose to go of our own accord.

[Asiyah3]

Thank you very much for explaining and being patient with me, Grace Seeker. I'm very grateful for your time :)

Now I think my questions have been answered. This thread may be closed, if the mods want to close it.

[Italianguy]

Simply put, Christians may not engage in premarital physical relations. No excuses, no interpretations, no liberal comentary needed! We as Christians canot do this.

I think the thread has gone off topic. Adultry can only happen after marriage.

Now there is a major problem of denomination amongst Christians in a whole, where we are actually speaking out against eachother. Which I do not do. I love all my brothers and sisters in Christianity equally. That does not mean i don't have a small problem with some of the ways some worship saints or think that ANY man on this earth is devinely inspired. We are only sheep being led by the words and teachings of our Messiah. He loves all of his flock(except the false shepards):hmm:.

We don't have to change the threads to show ANY 3 denominations to answer your question. We all know that it is sin(a major one).

Now on to the topic of Christdying for our sins. I will have to say i don't like, aknowledge and or condone any of the so called liberal or remodeled veiws of certain so called Christians tolerating Gays, lesbians, and premarital physical relations. There actions are a direct abomanation of what law has been given to us by Moses and goes directly go against the teachings of Christ.

Yup, Christians all day are walking around doing whatever they feel, THINKING know matter what, i can do something wrong and because Jesus died for my sins 2000 years ago that all I have to do is ask Him for forgiveness, believe in Him and I am saved.......well if that is entirely true, i can go out 10 minutes from now, shoot you, take your car, rob a bank, by a yacht and toss people over the side for fun......why not? All i have to do is ask for forgiveness and mean it.

This is no excuse to behave like this. We are to live our lives giving all the glory to our God! We are to live our lives spreading the teachings of Christ among the whole world (as commanded of us) and live as best we can, a sinless nature to the best of our ability! WE will NEVER acheive a Christ like nature the way the world is now, unless we change our ways, obey the laws given to us in the Bible...New and old testament.

We should not be interpreting what we wan't, when we want.

As for Christians engaging in premarital physical relations........judgement day is comming....not my call!

As for gays, lesbians, and what ever else there are out there......I will be praying for you...allot!

Synopsis;

Can't be gay

Can't have premarital relations

Can't commit adultry

Can't eat pork (just thought i would throw that in there again);D

Can't interpret the Bible to fit YOUR life...You conform your life to the Bible!

God bless.

[Italianguy]

Thank you very much for explaining and being patient with me, Grace Seeker. I'm very grateful for your time :)

Now I think my questions have been answered. This thread may be closed, if the mods want to close it.

You are probably the best person at showing respect, and apreciation of information provided to you. Thank YOU for being patient with us!

God be with you.

[Uthman]

This thread may be closed, if the mods want to close it.

With pleasure.

:threadclo