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غزالی
01-30-2010, 04:12 PM
Some Serious Question from Peoples without Religion. Please answer honestly :


Is it not in our nature that we inclined to worship ?






do our spiritual nature can be satisfied without bowing down and worshiping ?






Have you not thought and desire about a supernatural power who see, listen and help you at place where no other human can, like at earthquakes and at any other heavy grief ?






is our bodies requires only physical and mental development and not any spirtual Development ?






Some my athiest Friendz have told me that they feel sometime loneliness, fear and lack of some unknown things in their heart. Is it true ?






Are we not deceiving ourself and going against our human worshiping nature, if we are not choosing a true religion ?






Is there any need of religion ?


.





.


Is it Not Possible that our logic may be incorrect ?








think and ask from Your Hearts before giving answers

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Skavau
01-31-2010, 01:13 AM
huh?

I don't get it. This is a question to atheists?
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-31-2010, 01:16 AM
^ yes it is !
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Skavau
01-31-2010, 01:25 AM
Oh, the title said "Sincere Question from Athiest..." so it threw me a bit.

Is it not in our nature that we inclined to worship ?
In general, probably yes. We are responsive to authority figures.

do our spiritual nature can be satisfied without bowing down and worshiping ?
I assume the author means "Can our" rather than "do our" here, and the answer is subjective. For some, 'spirituality' means other things that do not involve the act of worship and/or bowing down - so to them, yes it could be. To me, being materialistic - it doesn't mean a lot.

Gunna need to define 'spiritual' here to expand more.

Have you not thought and desire about a supernatural power who see, listen and help you at place where no other human can, like at earthquakes and at any other heavy grief ?
I've thought about it. I've never desired it, nor decided it would be a potent argument for it.

is our bodies requires only physical and mental development and not any spirtual Development ?
What do you mean by 'spiritual' development?

Some my athiest Friendz have told me that they feel sometime loneliness, fear and lack of some unknown things in their heart. Is it true ?
Sure.

Everyone feels these.

Are we not deceiving ourself and going against our human worshiping nature, if we are not choosing a true religion ?
We go against a lot of things in our nature. To go 'against' our "worshipping nature" is to against just that, not religion. Religion is a byproduct of our subservience to authority, not the other way around.

Is there any need of religion ?
Not really. Some people depend upon it.
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غزالی
01-31-2010, 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Oh, the title said "Sincere Question from Athiest..." so it threw me a bit.
In general, probably yes. We are responsive to authority figures.
I assume the author means "Can our" rather than "do our" here,
Gunna need to define 'spiritual' here to expand more.
I've thought about it. I've never desired it, nor decided it would be a potent argument for it.
What do you mean by 'spiritual' development?
Sure.
Everyone feels these.

We go against a lot of things in our nature. To go 'against' our "worshipping nature" is to against just that, not religion. Religion is a byproduct of our subservience to authority, not the other way around.
Not really. Some people depend upon it.
i could not remove error in the post due to limited account.
anyhow, My all Above Question are interconnected to each other and not for debate but just for thinking..

#spirit and spiritual development :
Copy/paste for realization of the topic.
Body-Soul Conflict

The idea which has influenced most the climate of philosophical and religious thought is that body and soul are mutually antagonistic, and can develop only at each other’s expense. For the soul, the body is a prison and the activities of daily life are the shackles which keep it in bondage and arrest its growth. This has inevitably led to the universe being divided into the spiritual and the secular.
Those who chose the secular path were convinced that they could not meet the demands of spirituality, and thus they led highly material and hedonistic lives. All spheres of worldly activity, whether social, political, economic or cultural, were deprived of the light of spirituality; injustice and tyranny were the result.
Conversely, those who wanted to tread the path of spiritual excellence came to see themselves as ‘noble outcasts’ from the world. They believed that it was impossible for spiritual growth to be compatible with a ‘normal’ life. In their view physical self-denial and mortification of the flesh were necessary for the development and perfection of the spirit.
This conflict of body and soul resulted in the evolution of two different ideals for the perfection of man. One was that man should be surrounded by all possible material comforts and regard himself as nothing but an animal. Men learnt to fly like birds, swim like fish, run like horses and even terrorize and destroy like wolves ¾ but they did not learn how to live like noble human beings.

For spiritual healing like Islam propagates that man has been created on a delicate balance. According to Islamic teachings, this balance is disturbed and causes illness when man does not live a life in accordance with Allah's (who has created him) guidance. Spiritual healing thus involves restoration of that balance through submission and gratitude to Allah which is only possible through keen observation and pondering/reflection), humility, sacrifice for other creations of Allah, through doing justice, showing forgiveness and having patience.


True religion fullfil the natural need of the human being and satisfied its spirit (soul ) and heart and it tells purpose and meaning of our existence..
The point of religion is God-realization, our purpose realization. Without religion there is no instruction and without instruction there is danger of misuse and heavy loss, and it's becoming increasingly obvious that masonry is not sufficient knowledge for a healthy spiritual life.


You have said about my question ("Some my atheist Friends have told me that they feel sometime loneliness, fear and lack of some unknown things in their heart. Is it true ?) you said Everyone feels these, brother you can ask this question from a true Muslim if he feel such situation ? if you believe on me, Muslims who are truly following Islam have no such problems and all above mentioned problems.
if all my question are true then i can ask why not we taste a path that may answer to all our these problems.
you said religion is a byproduct.
i again says it is possible that our logic may be false and we may be going against our nature.
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Skavau
01-31-2010, 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by hafizsaad
i could not remove error in the post due to limited account.
anyhow, My all Above Question are interconnected to each other and not for debate but just for thinking..
Okay

The idea which has influenced most the climate of philosophical and religious thought is that body and soul are mutually antagonistic, and can develop only at each other’s expense. For the soul, the body is a prison and the activities of daily life are the shackles which keep it in bondage and arrest its growth. This has inevitably led to the universe being divided into the spiritual and the secular.
Those who chose the secular path were convinced that they could not meet the demands of spirituality, and thus they led highly material and hedonistic lives. All spheres of worldly activity, whether social, political, economic or cultural, were deprived of the light of spirituality; injustice and tyranny were the result.
Those who 'chose' the secular path could not come to conclude that 'spiritual' meant anything more than subjective meanings of fulfillment, or connection with some self-convinced personal unverifiable force.

How does the author make the connection between tyranny and secularism (materalism?) exactly? There has never been a system of fascism, or totalitarianism that has ever been secular and/or humanistic. Indeed, some of the most prosperous systems on the planet have been and remain secular. Click here.

Conversely, those who wanted to tread the path of spiritual excellence came to see themselves as ‘noble outcasts’ from the world. They believed that it was impossible for spiritual growth to be compatible with a ‘normal’ life. In their view physical self-denial and mortification of the flesh were necessary for the development and perfection of the spirit.
This conflict of body and soul resulted in the evolution of two different ideals for the perfection of man. One was that man should be surrounded by all possible material comforts and regard himself as nothing but an animal. Men learnt to fly like birds, swim like fish, run like horses and even terrorize and destroy like wolves ¾ but they did not learn how to live like noble human beings.
I have no issue with people considering improving their 'spiritual' nature as methods of self-improvement in their lives. Indeed at the very least their motives and desires for this provide basis for a form of placebo effect to intervene - which I have no grounds, nor place to question.

I have every problem however with general smears and unfounded attacks against people who choose not to do so. The author is hinting repeatedly that perhaps materialists, humanists, or even just general secularists have lost their humanity. Perhaps they are catalysts for tyranny and injustice. I mean, what is this?

Empiricist and materialist schools of thought have been the foundation of all scientific accomplishment that have dragged us out of the dark age to first-world nations. They are the schools of thought that built up the Haber Process. They are the bedrock of modern transport, global communication (which we're using now), modern construction is all wholly, without exception motivated by materialistic ideologies. Where do you think our advancing life-expectancy comes from? Where do imagine the fruits we take for granted from the now casual immunisation of many diseases that ravaged our ancestors? What about the clean water and safe food that we enjoy? What about the lives saved and advanced through medical technology? They are every bit materialistic but bring far more tangible joy to others than 'spirituality'.

Please, do not dismiss materialism as one of emptiness - for it has bought everything we now take for granted.

For spiritual healing like Islam propagates that man has been created on a delicate balance. According to Islamic teachings, this balance is disturbed and causes illness when man does not live a life in accordance with Allah's (who has created him) guidance. Spiritual healing thus involves restoration of that balance through submission and gratitude to Allah which is only possible through keen observation and pondering/reflection), humility, sacrifice for other creations of Allah, through doing justice, showing forgiveness and having patience.
As I've said, the 'miracles' through surgery - bought through our desire to understand and heal have far more of a tangible impact on the lives of others.

I cannot comment on what you mean by 'spiritual healing' only to perhaps believe that you mean some sort of religious motivated self-improvement.

You have said about my question ("Some my atheist Friends have told me that they feel sometime loneliness, fear and lack of some unknown things in their heart. Is it true ?) you said Everyone feels these, brother you can ask this question from a true Muslim if he feel such situation ? if you believe on me, Muslims who are truly following Islam have no such problems and all above mentioned problems.
if all my question are true then i can ask why not we taste a path that may answer to all our these problems.
you said religion is a byproduct.
i again says it is possible that our logic may be false and we may be going against our nature.
As I said:

Everyone feels loneliness. Even if every Muslim, devout or otherwise did not feel such (which I doubt) - I would conclude it was a passive consequence of the teachings of Islam.
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غزالی
02-01-2010, 03:30 AM
Brother sorry to say you can not decode my message properly. actually i was not criticising on materialism, it is the part of life but not the purpose of life. its ok, The new advancement has remove many difficulties of human life have done no work for what our soul require, have made a human like a machine (No soul)...etc Our soul can not be satisfied with materialistic things, if it can, there should be no lonliness, disatisfaction, no wealthy people in the world commit self sucide etc .you can see the ratio of self sucide of wealthy people in japan and europe etc. actually we are going against our nature.you can reach to my point if you see my first post in this background.
you said about secular people modern invention. sorry, the modern invention and scientific accomplishment could not be possible without the share of religious people of muslim, cristianity and jews etc. and this share is more than 80 %, you can search it online.
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Italianguy
02-01-2010, 04:20 AM
:cry: Makes my heart sink to see pictures of a brother without knowledge of Godimsad To see and hear that they feel lonely without Him.
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Skavau
02-02-2010, 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by hafizsaad
Brother sorry to say you can not decode my message properly. actually i was not criticising on materialism, it is the part of life but not the purpose of life. its ok, The new advancement has remove many difficulties of human life have done no work for what our soul require, have made a human like a machine (No soul)...etc Our soul can not be satisfied with materialistic things, if it can, there should be no lonliness, disatisfaction, no wealthy people in the world commit self sucide etc .
All of these things are specifically related to people's interaction with other humans. We desire to be social and thus loneliness is a what some feel when they fail to do so. Dissatisfaction often has a lot to do with frustration over one's place in the world (which can be related to materialistic things. You can choose to refer to it as a 'soul' if you like, but that remains your terminology.

you can see the ratio of self sucide of wealthy people in japan and europe etc. actually we are going against our nature.you can reach to my point if you see my first post in this background.
How do you know your point isn't about self-fulfillment rather than the embrace of religion specifically?

you said about secular people modern invention. sorry, the modern invention and scientific accomplishment could not be possible without the share of religious people of muslim, cristianity and jews etc. and this share is more than 80 %, you can search it online.
The scientific method is based on understanding the virtues of empiricism and the value of materialism. It doesn't matter what faith you are, if you contributed to this then you achieved it through recognising materialism and empiricism.

And yes, both are specifically secular in nature.
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غزالی
02-02-2010, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau

The scientific method is based on understanding the virtues of empiricism and the value of materialism. It doesn't matter what faith you are, if you contributed to this then you achieved it through recognising materialism and empiricism.

And yes, both are specifically secular in nature.
the topic was about the need of God, Religion for human nature but has been diverted to Scientific Invention.
simply the God and Relgion is the naturaly need of the Human being and what about scientist i again says, above 80 % of the great scholars and scientist have recognise this need and they have the concept of God and attached to a religion.
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Skavau
02-02-2010, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by hafizsaad
the topic was about the need of God, Religion for human nature but has been diverted to Scientific Invention.
simply the God and Relgion is the naturaly need of the Human being and what about scientist i again says, above 80 % of the great scholars and scientist have recognise this need and they have the concept of God and attached to a religion.
I have no idea what statistics you're using to determine that 80% of scholars and scientists are religious. I suspect in particular for modern thinkers the percentage that believe in god are lower than that and the percentage that follow a religion even lower.

I cannot comment on the need of god and religion in human nature. There is certainly a tendency to follow authority - to take things on face value (or now commonly referred to on faith) which has helped religious world-views multiply tenfold and the obvious tendency of humans to invoke patterns (which convince people of religious views in the first place).

I certainly don't have a need for religion, or God and even if most people did - I abhor collectivism, so it wouldn't matter to me anyway.
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