Why do Roman Catholics revert to Islam?

[Woodrow]

The reason I started this thread is because in my opinion Roman Catholics, especially Roman Catholic Priests and Seminarians revert at a higher rate than any other Christian Denomination.

I will answer for myself as to why it was so easy for me to revert (although it took me a long time). It is because I believe Roman Catholicism to be the oldest Christian Denomination and is still the closest to what Christianity was supposed to be.

There are no prayers, practices or beliefs in Islam that a Roman Catholic would find to be strange or Alien. A Roman Catholic finds everything in Islam to be very familiar and not significantly different from what a practicing Roman Catholic does.

For a Roman Catholic to revert requires no changes of life style, it is a return to what a person was supposed to have been doing if they were a Practicing Roman Catholic. A Roman Catholic is well prepared to enter Islam, once they realize that what Islam teaches is inline with what Roman Catholicism originally taught. It only became separated from Islamic practices when the frills and rituals had been added by Popes and refomists.

I believe the more a Roman Catholic learns about Roman Catholicism the more receptive he becomes to Islam. This may be why it is so common for Priests and Seminarians to revert.

[Asiyah3]

JazakalLahu khairan, uncle Woodrow

Masha'lLah, that was very interesting :)

[Insaanah]

:sl: Uncle, and jazaakillah khair for sharing this information, which has come as a surprise to me. I had assumed that Roman Catholics would be the least likely to revert, simply because there is more shirk, eg praying to a plethora of saints for various purposes etc, and thus the beliefs were further away from Islam?

However, that could purely be my lack of understanding of Roman Catholicism.

:sl:

[Froggy]

For a Roman Catholic to revert requires no changes of life style, it is a return to what a person was supposed to have been doing if they were a Practicing Roman Catholic. A Roman Catholic is well prepared to enter Islam, once they realize that what Islam teaches is inline with what Roman Catholicism originally taught. It only became separated from Islamic practices when the frills and rituals had been added by Popes and refomists.

That+s an interesting theory, If I may, I'd like to ask you what you mean by Islamic practices that Roman catholicism supposedly got separated from. Is it moral values, ways to worship or the actualy beliefs, strict non-trinitarian monotheism?

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[Woodrow]

:sl: Uncle, and jazaakillah khair for sharing this information, which has come as a surprise to me. I had assumed that Roman Catholics would be the least likely to revert, simply because there is more shirk, eg praying to a plethora of saints for various purposes etc, and thus the beliefs were further away from Islam?

However, that could purely be my lack of understanding of Roman Catholicism.

:sl:

That is a strange phenomena unique with Catholics. It is based upon Catholic tradition of "Communion of Saints" in which it is believed Saints can hear what we on earth say. A Saint is defined as any person assumed to be in heaven. Catholics do not see it as praying to the Saints, but rather as asking them to plead with Allaah(swt) on their behalf. It is Shirk, but a Catholic does not see they are praying to someone other than Allaah(swt), in their view it is no different than asking a living person to make Du'a for them.

If they did understand it as being the praying to idols, it most likely would be a huge stumbling block in their seeing the beauty and truth of Islam.

[Woodrow]

That+s an interesting theory, If I may, I'd like to ask you what you mean by Islamic practices that Roman catholicism supposedly got separated from. Is it moral values, ways to worship or the actualy beliefs, strict non-trinitarian monotheism?

Catholics have some very Islamic Practices, if they follow Roman Catholicism properly.

The value and need of fasting, including a 40 day fast annually.

A washing before praying (Blessing ones self with Holy Water) which in many ways is similar to Wudu, at least in intent.

Daily Prayers at specific times, although a Catholic's prayers do not coincide exactly with the times of Islamic Prayer, there are 5 required prayers. 1 upon awakening, 1 before each of the 3 meals and one at bed time.

Although Roman Catholics do not make it mandatory for pilgrimage the value of it is seen and Catholics are encouraged to make at least one pilgrimage in their life times.

Prostration in prayer, although no longer done except for special prayers, it was a part of Roman Catholic prayers in the past and some Roman Catholics still do so when Praying at home.

The use of Rosary Beads in prayer, very similar to Dhiker beads and used much the same.

Belief in Prophets and Angels

Belief in a final judgment day.

Belief in punishment for all of their sins, Catholics believe that all will spend some time in hellfire (Purgatory) until they are cleansed of their sins. Interesting enough the only unforgivable sin a Roman Catholic recognizes is the worship of any thing other then the One God(swt)

Belief that none will be punished greater than their sins, but will be rewarded many times over for their good deeds.

If a person studies Catholicism they will find differences of opinion about the Trinity. While Catholics are essentially trinitarian, if a Catholic has sincere doubts about the Trinity he is not required to believe in it or even pretend he believes in it. The concept of the Trinity in Roman Catholicism was not always a part of Catholic teaching.

[Danah]

^^So all of those were old practices and kind of abandoned now?

The concept of the Trinity in Roman Catholicism was not always a part of Catholic teaching.

That's interesting. I always thought that only the Unitarian can have such belief about Trinity.


One more thing about the Catholics confessing to priests to forgive their sins, was this an old practice too? or its newly invented?

[Grace Seeker]

The concept of the Trinity in Roman Catholicism was not always a part of Catholic teaching.

The concept of the Trinity became codified as set dogma of orthodoxy in the then catholic (meaning universal) Church before there were any divisions within Christianity into Roman Catholic or Orthodox subgroups and more than 1000 years before the advent of the protestant denominations, so what you have said of Catholics would be true of all Christian groups.

[Woodrow]

^^So all of those were old practices and kind of abandoned now?


That's interesting. I always thought that only the Unitarian can have such belief about Trinity.


One more thing about the Catholics confessing to priests to forgive their sins, was this an old practice too? or its newly invented?

A Catholic can doubt the Trinity and still be a Catholic, if their doubt is based upon honest and sincere research.

Confession to a Priest had a gradual evolution. It is difficult to trace specific dates. But it seems to have originated quite early apparently in the early days it was an accepted practice to confess sins to a trusted elder in order to get advice on how to avoid repeating the sin. But, confession to Priests seems to date back to when an ordained priesthood was first established. The idea that the Priest is the one doing the forgiving is still developing. Most Catholics do not believe the Priest does the forgiving, but it is required to confess to one. There are alternatives that can be used instead of confessing to a Priest if a Priest is not available and the person is facing death. Such as they can confess to any other Catholic or they can recite a sincere act of contrition directly to God(swt)

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Woodrow;1285920]

The reason I started this thread is because in my opinion Roman Catholics, especially Roman Catholic Priests and Seminarians revert at a higher rate than any other Christian Denomination.

Maybe answer from roman catholic will be useful?

Unless You give firm sources for that, I will treat it as anegdote.

I believe the more a Roman Catholic learns about Roman Catholicism the more receptive he becomes to Islam. This may be why it is so common for Priests and Seminarians to revert.

Actually how many faithful catholics You know? I know dozens. And trust me that they have very huge knowledge about our own religion and other religions. Their opinion about other religions is firm, actually the more knowledge they have, the more they are critical to other faiths (although that judaism and protestantism are most criticized faiths by traditional catholics). For a traditional catholic, the attitude towards islam is unchangable and firm since about crusades. Nothing really changed.

The reason why nowadays some catholics convert to islam, protestantism, buddhism, become atheists, agnostics?
It's so called "Council (vaticano secundo) spirit" (not the Vaticano Secundo Council, but the radically liberal interpretation of it) which put confusion into the hearts of majority of catholics.

[جوري]

which put confusion into the hearts of majority of catholics.

confusion or do you think they are letting go of centuries of dark ages and ignorance?

all the best

[Woodrow]

[QUOTE=Amadeus85;1286083]

Maybe answer from roman catholic will be useful?

Unless You give firm sources for that, I will treat it as anegdote.




Actually how many faithful catholics You know? I know dozens. And trust me that they have very huge knowledge about our own religion and other religions. Their opinion about other religions is firm, actually the more knowledge they have, the more they are critical to other faiths (although that judaism and protestantism are most criticized faiths by traditional catholics). For a traditional catholic, the attitude towards islam is unchangable and firm since about crusades. Nothing really changed.

The reason why nowadays some catholics convert to islam, protestantism, buddhism, become atheists, agnostics?
It's so called "Council (vaticano secundo) spirit" (not the Vaticano Secundo Council, but the radically liberal interpretation of it) which put confusion into the hearts of majority of catholics.

Well I was raised Roman Catholic, served as an alter boy, was in CYO and was a KofC and at one point I was a Seminarian. It was during my time as a Seminarian I chose to leave Catholicism. Most of my family is Catholic as are nearly all of my friends I grew up with. I am still friends with several Priests and one Bishop, who was a childhood friend. Although it has been about 50 years since I left Catholicism and some of my memory may be faulty along with some changes in the Church I am posting as memory serves me.

Perhaps some other Catholic reverts will add to this thread and be more up to date as to what Catholicism is today.

[جوري]

A high proportion of the 1,500 to 2,500 converts to Islam every year
are Catholics. According to Sarah Jacobs, a former Catholic who is now a
Muslim, the leap between the two faiths is not as great as it seems.
She was confirmed in the Catholic Church, the faith of her mother, at 13.
When one of her brothers married a Muslim she was horrified, but three years
ago she followed him, to the dismay of the rest of her family. She
said: "What appealed to me was the incredible simplicity and clarity of

http://www.islamawareness.net/Converts/catholics.html

Islam."


so you are most correct Br. woodrow that Catholics have a high rate conversion..

:w:

[Amadeus85]

confusion or do you think they are letting go of centuries of dark ages and ignorance?

all the best

Typical atheist-like argument used by a muslim, interesting.

[جوري]

Typical atheist-like argument used by a muslim, interesting.

you haven't put a flaw in the argument though as to why the numbers of converts is so huge especially in this day and age when Islam is so maligned!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

you haven't put a flaw in the argument though as to why the numbers of converts is so huge especially in this day and age when Islam is so maligned!

all the best

Nor is the argument more than antecodotal at present.

First, Thus far the only actual numbers we have to work with are "A high proportion of the 1,500 to 2,500 converts to Islam every year are Catholics."

I have to believe that the number of converts to Islam are significantly higher than that. But let us say I accept it. If I high percentage of that number of converts is Catholic -- 75% would be a high number -- then if we figure the high number of 2000 converts that means that a grand total of 1500 people converted from being Catholic to Muslim in a year. That is actually an infinitesimally small number compared both to the total number of Catholics in the world and to the total number of Muslims in the world. And what, all other converts world wide total only 500. Something is wrong either with the figures or the way you have presented them. Because they just don't add up.



Second, I'm inclined to accept Brother Woodrow's thesis that of those people who convert to Islam from another religion, that more are coming out of Catholicism than any other single group. But, I don't think we've hit on the reason for it yet. Many of the things that he cited as being true with regard to Catholicism are equally true of other Christian groups. To explain why they are coming out of Catholicism and not, say, Pentecostalims. We have to find out what is true of Catholicism that is not true of these other Christians groups. And those things have not yet been identified.

[جوري]

Nor is the argument more than antecodotal at present.

First, Thus far the only actual numbers we have to work with are "A high proportion of the 1,500 to 2,500 converts to Islam every year are Catholics."

I have to believe that the number of converts to Islam are significantly higher than that. But let us say I accept it. If I high percentage of that number of converts is Catholic -- 75% would be a high number -- then if we figure the high number of 2000 converts that means that a grand total of 1500 people converted from being Catholic to Muslim in a year. That is actually an infinitesimally small number compared both to the total number of Catholics in the world and to the total number of Muslims in the world. And what, all other converts world wide total only 500. Something is wrong either with the figures or the way you have presented them. Because they just don't add up.



Second, I'm inclined to accept Brother Woodrow's thesis that of those people who convert to Islam from another religion, that more are coming out of Catholicism than any other single group. But, I don't think we've hit on the reason for it yet. Many of the things that he cited as being true with regard to Catholicism are equally true of other Christian groups. To explain why they are coming out of Catholicism and not, say, Pentecostalims. We have to find out what is true of Catholicism that is not true of these other Christians groups. And those things have not yet been identified.

We don't know that she is speaking 'universally', perhaps it is only in her state, so it doesn't nullify which she says and certainly doesn't render it anecdotal (and if it is, then may I suggest you visit a comedy club more often)

as for what is true of Catholicism that isn't so of other branches in Christianity.. I have a few thesis but not particularly interested in another long winded debate..

all the best

[Froggy]

I assume its about England. Catholic there a minority, statistically the highest percentage of converts to Islam or any other religion would have to be Anglicans but in case of ISlam it's catholics.

[جوري]

^^ greetings froggy.. do you mind introducing yourself in our introduce yourself section?

peace

[Grace Seeker]

We don't know that she is speaking 'universally', perhaps it is only in her state, so it doesn't nullify which she says and certainly doesn't render it anecdotal (and if it is, then may I suggest you visit a comedy club more often)

Then I was right: "Something is wrong either with the figures or the way you have presented them." The figures weren't universal, but you presented them as if they were.


And Woodrow's argument, thus far, is indeed anecdotal, as it comes from a collection of individual stories, but stories that so far are just isolated snapshots and, as of yet, don't present a whole picture of what is going on and the reasons behind it.

as for what is true of Catholicism that isn't so of other branches in Christianity.. I have a few thesis but not particularly interested in another long winded debate..

If you aren't going to share your theses, then what contribution do you plan to make to the discussion?

[جوري]

Then I was right: "Something is wrong either with the figures or the way you have presented them." The figures weren't universal, but you presented them as if they were.


And Woodrow's argument, thus far, is indeed anecdotal, as it comes from a collection of individual stories, but stories that so far are just isolated snapshots and, as of yet, don't present a whole picture of what is going on and the reasons behind it.

I didn't at all present those as universal figures, given the numerous posts I have made on the number of converts in the U.S alone daily being in the excess of 20,000.
we simply don't know what the figure is in relation to, not whether or not it is inaccurate!

If you aren't going to share your theses, then what contribution do you plan to make to the discussion?

Being in agreement with br. woodrow and offering him my support is as far as I'd like to take it..

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

I didn't at all present those as universal figures, given the numerous posts I have made on the number of converts in the U.S alone daily being in the excess of 20,000.

OK. Then I made a mistake in how I read it.



Back to the issue of Roman Catholics converting, I wonder if it could some of what I hear from those that are leaving the Roman Catholic Church to join other Christian groups -- they sense a dryness regarding the nurturing of their soul within the Catholic Church and are simply looking for something else that might give more/better meaning to their life?

That search takes different people in different directions. Some (probably the majority is my guess) end up in a different Catholic Church to begin with, and then others end up in other Christian bodies, still others drop out of church altogether. Some of that group end up in Islam.

If this is the case, it would not be so much that Islam is attracting Roman Catholics, but that the Roman Catholic Church is hemorraging members.

I don't have any way to substantiate this either. All my information is also anecdotal. I just propose it as a theory that fits the limited inforation that I have and cases that I've observed.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

We Are More, Then We Must Be Right! (Watch) An Ex-Roman Catholic's Journey to Islam

Growing up, he always considered that since Christianity, by numbers, is the largest religion in the world, and Roman Catholicism is the largest of those groups within Christianity, then he never doubted in the slightest that he, his family, his Church, and his faith were correct. But upon reading the Bible and visiting the Vatican, he was faced with some surprises that he had never expected.

Watch Musa Cerantonio's amazing journey from Roman Catholicism to Islam.


Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...#ixzz0e9Xooeqo

Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...#ixzz0e9XiXIlj

[Woodrow]

OK. Then I made a mistake in how I read it.



Back to the issue of Roman Catholics converting, I wonder if it could some of what I hear from those that are leaving the Roman Catholic Church to join other Christian groups -- they sense a dryness regarding the nurturing of their soul within the Catholic Church and are simply looking for something else that might give more/better meaning to their life?

That search takes different people in different directions. Some (probably the majority is my guess) end up in a different Catholic Church to begin with, and then others end up in other Christian bodies, still others drop out of church altogether. Some of that group end up in Islam.

If this is the case, it would not be so much that Islam is attracting Roman Catholics, but that the Roman Catholic Church is hemorraging members.

I don't have any way to substantiate this either. All my information is also anecdotal. I just propose it as a theory that fits the limited inforation that I have and cases that I've observed.

Peace Gene,

As I stated earlier, I am just expressing my own observations and that is based only on what I have seen. The majority of reverts to Islam I have seen either in person or on videos have been Catholic.

On a personal basis I did not find the change from Catholicism to be stepping into a strange environment. Much of what I now do as a Muslim has similar counterparts in Catholicism The major differences are in the belief in the Trinity and organization. I do not find Catholics as firmly embedded in trinitarian belief as other Christian denominations, even though the crucifix is the most visible aspect of a Catholic Church, there are very few prayers addressed specifically to Jesus(as), I can only think of one and that is the "Liturgy of the Sacred Heart" which is rarely recited There are groups within Catholicism, such as the Sacred Heart Society, that do pray almost exclusively to Jesus(as) but in most Churches they are a very small number

On a personal basis the biggest difference between Catholicism and Islam is the organization of clergy and Papal Authority. I find little in Islam a Catholic would be in disagreement with, but there are many things in Catholicism a Muslim disagrees with.

Now getting back to why I think Catholic's are more receptive to Islam then other religions is because the majority of what a Muslim would find erroneous about Catholicism, are the same things some Catholics also have trouble accepting

I think there is some other factor besides Catholics becoming dissatisfied with Catholicism that makes the route to Islam being the most logical choice Initially after leaving Catholicism I tried a few Pentecostal/Evangelical/Fundamental type denominations but found even more faults there than I did in Catholicism

I am not the only revert from Catholicism here, perhaps some of the others will give input

[Amadeus85]

you haven't put a flaw in the argument though as to why the numbers of converts is so huge especially in this day and age when Islam is so maligned!

all the best

Why the numbers of converts are so high? Actually I am in quite close contact with the news and informations from catholic world and so far I haven't noticed any informations about high numbers of catholics converting to islam. Moreover, I have never met any news about priests or candidates for priests converting to other religions. Every day I spend some time on catholic websites, those traditional, its fact, but I know thinking of these people. I know that they are the last persons to leave their faith and choose other. I have read many books of them, I know how much sacrifices they bare, for following catholicism without any liberal or modernistic additions.

As I said before, typical catholic who leaves his faith and choose another is so called "non practising" believer. He thinks "Oh how my country is immoral, people are drunkards, women are easy, everything is full of sex and lie", he read in internet about other religions, and he sees -"In muslim world there are no drunkards, women are pure, everything is strict, I like it". This is typical attitude.

Someone who read a lot, who has deep knowledge, he knows that nowadays there is no country with true catholic state (last were Spain and Portugal in 60's in XX century). Our countries has nowadays systems foreign to us, coming from completely different way of thinking. So everything what we can do now, is to follow the teachings, commandments, live a good life without sin, spend time with family, work hard, read good books. And pray that one day europeans will reject the systems and philosophies which were condemned by popes many times in past.

So far the fellowship of the ring is not numerous, and the forces of Sauron are countless. But nevertheless we must preserve the seeds of truth, because in future it may be used by next generations.

[Grace Seeker]

[QUOTE=Woodrow;1286178]Now getting back to why I think Catholic's are more receptive to Islam then other religions is because....[/qupte]
Woodrow, is it a true statement that Catholics are in fact more receptive to Islam than to other religions? I don't know. I don't have any numbers to say with certainty one way or the other, do you? But if your statement is true, then that would mean that for every 100 Catholics that leave Catholicism, more of them become Muslim than become some other form of Christian or drop out of faith communities all together. Based on my own personal observations, that is not what I see actually happening. If you do and I don't I wonder if it is because of where we happen to be ourselves. Maybe it would be good to see if we could find any research on this subject that might have been carried out by the Catholic Church as to where their members go when they leave the church?

I think there is some other factor besides Catholics becoming dissatisfied with Catholicism that makes the route to Islam being the most logical choice Initially after leaving Catholicism...

By this statement do you mean that the route to Islam was logical for you and others who ended up there, or that in general it is the more logical route for anyone who would leave Catholicism?



You see, I can understand that there are things that Islam and Catholicism have in common. (There are things that Islam has in common with my beliefs as well.) But there are also things that they do not have in common. Which of those are going to be the directing forces for one who leaves Catholicism is, I suspect, the determining factor in the direction one goes after leaving the Catholic Church. If those things that Islam and Catholicism share are what the person is rejecting in Catholicism, it does not seem very logical that such a person would migrate to Islam. Likewise if one was leaving Catholicism and still seeking the things that it shares with Islam then one might consider Islam, but what if even more of those things were found in a different branch of Christianity? Then it would be more logical to go there instead of Islam.

It seems to me that each person's story is going to be unique to his/her own circumstance, feelings, ideas, ideals, and what they are searching for. For some Islam will be the place they settle, and for some it will be elsewhere. But until we take all of these stories together in aggregate form, I don't know that one can, with confidence, make assertions such as:

Roman Catholics, especially Roman Catholic Priests and Seminarians revert at a higher rate than any other Christian Denomination.

I understand that we can theorize as to why it may or may not be the case from many different perspecitves. But, if you or anyone has them, I would like to see some numbers that indicating to what degree that is a statement of fact rather than of personal opinion.

[Supreme]

Woodrow, it's funny. I can't understand exactly what Catholicism and Islam have in common all that much. Other than the strict rules of both religions. Rather, I'd say my religion, Protestant Christainity, is closer. And here's why:

1) Protestants pray to God like Muslims. No Virgin Mary or saint 'middle man' so to speak.
2) Protestant churches and Islamic mosques to do not tolerate idols of God or prophets/saints in them.
3) Textual criticism- Protestants, especially liberal ones, reject the Catholic idea that the Bible is an infallable word of God, an idea not to be found in Catholicism.
4) Fantics- both Protestants and Muslims have their fair share of these.
5) Dynamcy- The most dynamic religions in the modern world today are popular Protestantism and resurgent Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Protestantism

[جوري]

Why the numbers of converts are so high? Actually I am in quite close contact with the news and informations from catholic world and so far I haven't noticed any informations about high numbers of catholics converting to islam.

care to share your secret sources in a verifiable statistical fashion?
I know that any institution in order to keep its integrity has to dispense with certain 'facts' to its followers to quell them from the changes in the tide..


all the best

[sur]

...... especially Roman Catholic Priests and Seminarians revert at a higher rate than any other Christian Denomination.
...

I noticed that too when i would watch videos of converts, most of them were Catholics before...

When I searched about differences b/w Protestants & Catholics, I found that Catholics keep "Apocrypha" as part of bible, including "Gospel of Barnabas" (Correct me if I am wrong)..... & somewhere in these books, Prophet Muhammad(saww) has been mentioned by name... Also they mention Barnabas saw Jesus(Eesa) smiling on a tree while jews were crucifying his look-alike....


So one reason of more Catholics converting, i thought was that Catholics read those books that have been thrown out by Protestants ...

[Woodrow]

[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;1286331]

Now getting back to why I think Catholic's are more receptive to Islam then other religions is because....[/qupte]
Woodrow, is it a true statement that Catholics are in fact more receptive to Islam than to other religions? I don't know. I don't have any numbers to say with certainty one way or the other, do you? But if your statement is true, then that would mean that for every 100 Catholics that leave Catholicism, more of them become Muslim than become some other form of Christian or drop out of faith communities all together. Based on my own personal observations, that is not what I see actually happening. If you do and I don't I wonder if it is because of where we happen to be ourselves. Maybe it would be good to see if we could find any research on this subject that might have been carried out by the Catholic Church as to where their members go when they leave the church?

Peace Gene,

I just realized I am actually discussing 3 separate topics.

Topic One: Most reverts to Islam are former Catholics.

That is only my own observation and based only on the people I know. I should have clarified that with my first statement and a better choice would have been to say: "Most reverts to Islam, I know, are former Catholics."


Topic Two: Most Catholics that leave Catholicism revert to Islam.

I can see how my responses brought that about. But, that is something I actually have no opinion nor any supporting facts about. Something I had no business bringing up.




Topic Three: Why do Roman Catholics revert to Islam.

That is what it was original intent to discuss. I gave my opinions and am seeking the views and opinions from others. I know why I myself reverted and I know why I found it to be easy. I would like to learn if other reverts feel the same.

By this statement do you mean that the route to Islam was logical for you and others who ended up there, or that in general it is the more logical route for anyone who would leave Catholicism?

To me the acceptance of Islam was very easy and looking back I see it was the most logical choice for me. For myself I find Islam to be the Completion of what Catholicism was supposed to be. I did try other paths, but I only found Islam to be complete.

You see, I can understand that there are things that Islam and Catholicism have in common. (There are things that Islam has in common with my beliefs as well.) But there are also things that they do not have in common. Which of those are going to be the directing forces for one who leaves Catholicism is, I suspect, the determining factor in the direction one goes after leaving the Catholic Church. If those things that Islam and Catholicism share are what the person is rejecting in Catholicism, it does not seem very logical that such a person would migrate to Islam. Likewise if one was leaving Catholicism and still seeking the things that it shares with Islam then one might consider Islam, but what if even more of those things were found in a different branch of Christianity? Then it would be more logical to go there instead of Islam.

I believe you are correct here. I also agree that would be a very interesting study. While I feel that many other reverts from Catholicism see Islam as being a very normal choice and is a fulfillment. It is a very interesting thought to see how many have left Catholicism, but chose paths other than Islam.

It seems to me that each person's story is going to be unique to his/her own circumstance, feelings, ideas, ideals, and what they are searching for. For some Islam will be the place they settle, and for some it will be elsewhere. But until we take all of these stories together in aggregate form, I don't know that one can, with confidence, make assertions such as:

Roman Catholics, especially Roman Catholic Priests and Seminarians revert at a higher rate than any other Christian Denomination.

I understand that we can theorize as to why it may or may not be the case from many different perspecitves. But, if you or anyone has them, I would like to see some numbers that indicating to what degree that is a statement of fact rather than of personal opinion.

I also would be interested in seeing that.

[Woodrow]

I noticed that too when i would watch videos of converts, most of them were Catholics before...

When I searched about differences b/w Protestants & Catholics, I found that Catholics keep "Apocrypha" as part of bible, including "Gospel of Barnabas" (Correct me if I am wrong)..... & somewhere in these books, Prophet Muhammad(saww) has been mentioned by name... Also they mention Barnabas saw Jesus(Eesa) smiling on a tree while jews were crucifying his look-alike....


So one reason of more Catholics converting, i thought was that Catholics read those books that have been thrown out by Protestants ...

That is a plausible thought. While the Catholic Bible does have books not in the KJV the NT for both are basically the same.

While the Gospel of Barnabas is not part of the Catholic Bible, many Catholics have read it, I know as a seminarian it was one I had to read for familiarization and possible critique, refutation.

For Catholics who have read the Gospel of Barnabas, it could easily be a starting point onto the road of Islam

[Woodrow]

I was asked to clarify what I meant by Pilgrimage in an earlier post.

Catholics are strong believers in making pilgrimages.

Here is a link to the best known sites for Pilgrimage:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/s...ic-shrines.htm

[Grace Seeker]

I finally found a study Religious Conversion in 40 Countries. The countries studied are:

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Belarus
Canada
Switzerland
Chile
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Spain
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
U.K. (Britain)
Greece
Croatia
Hungary
Ireland
Iceland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Lithuania
Latvia
Netherlands
Norway
New Zealand
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
Slovak Republic
Slovenia
Sweden
Ukraine
United States

The results include survey nearly 70,000 people. Of that sample, 29,456 were raise Catholic and 26,866 are currently Catholic. The sample had only a small number of Muslim respondants, but did report a healthly increase as of the 485 current Muslims surveyed, only 458 reported that they had been raised Muslim, a net increase of 5.9%.


Of the survey's respondents who reported changing their religious affiliation, the survey reported that 4091 left Catholicism for something else and 1501 chose to become Catholic that had not be raised that way, for a net loss of 2590, or a 8.8% decrease. Of the 4091 who left Catholicism for something else, by far, the vast majority (3386, 82.7%) simply dropped religion altogether. The next biggest place that former Catholic found themselves was in protestant churches, 421 or 10.3% of Catholics who left Catholicism found themselves in protestant churches. Only 4 of the 4092 people who left the Catholic Church in this survey of nearly 70,000 people in 40 countries reported that they had reverted to Isalm, a figure representing less than 0.1% of all Catholics who left the Catholic faith.

The some total of all who were not raise Muslim but reverted to Islam was 55. Of this group, the largest faction came from those who had no prior religious afflication, 35 individuals or 63.6% of new Muslims had belonged to no previous religion. Among those who had a faith background, people of Jewish background were among those most likely to convert to Islam; there numbers were matched by protestant converts, each group reporting 7 who left their ranks to become Muslims. Each group them made up roughly12.7% of all new Muslims in the survey, but given that the number of Jewish adherents from which to draw is less than 1/10th ofthe number of protestant (and that aggregate Catholic numbers are larger than protestant figures), this means a significantly larger percentage of Jews converting to Islam than any other religious group. With regard to Catholicism, the actual number of new Muslims who reported that they had been raised Catholic was 4, or 7.3% of those new to Islam.


My review of the sampling process for this survey indicates that there was a bias to western cultures. So, there may be higher conversion rates among Catholics raised in non-western cultures, but certainly for those of us reporting from Europe and the Americas the reality is that what has been reflected by the personal observation of those who have noticed a larger number of Catholic reverts in their personal lives and on YouTube is going to have to find another explanation, for the reality is that Catholics in these countries are reverting to Islam at a lesser rate than all other Christians (except the Orthodox), and that it is those of no previous faith who are the majority of those adopting Islam as reverts from outside of the Ummah.


-----------------------------------------------
Oh, and I've included a link to the survey if anyone wants to read it. My college major included writing similar papers, so I was familiar with the terminology and techniques used to produce the analysis that they did. It didn't really go to the point of this thread and so I spent more than an hour re-working and analyzing the data to make it productive for the purposes of our discussion here. I say that as a warning, that if anyone wants to challenge these results they had better be able to back it up with data (not opinion, conjecture, or simply another person story) of their own.

[Woodrow]

I finally found a study Religious Conversion in 40 Countries. The countries studied are:

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Belarus
Canada
Switzerland
Chile
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Spain
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
U.K. (Britain)
Greece
Croatia
Hungary
Ireland
Iceland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Lithuania
Latvia
Netherlands
Norway
New Zealand
Philippines
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
Slovak Republic
Slovenia
Sweden
Ukraine
United States

The results include survey nearly 70,000 people. Of that sample, 29,456 were raise Catholic and 26,866 are currently Catholic. The sample had only a small number of Muslim respondants, but did report a healthly increase as of the 485 current Muslims surveyed, only 458 reported that they had been raised Muslim, a net increase of 5.9%.


Of the survey's respondents who reported changing their religious affiliation, the survey reported that 4091 left Catholicism for something else and 1501 chose to become Catholic that had not be raised that way, for a net loss of 2590, or a 8.8% decrease. Of the 4091 who left Catholicism for something else, by far, the vast majority (3386, 82.7%) simply dropped religion altogether. The next biggest place that former Catholic found themselves was in protestant churches, 421 or 10.3% of Catholics who left Catholicism found themselves in protestant churches. Only 4 of the 4092 people who left the Catholic Church in this survey of nearly 70,000 people in 40 countries reported that they had reverted to Isalm, a figure representing less than 0.1% of all Catholics who left the Catholic faith.

The some total of all who were not raise Muslim but reverted to Islam was 55. Of this group, the largest faction came from those who had no prior religious afflication, 35 individuals or 63.6% of new Muslims had belonged to no previous religion. Among those who had a faith background, people of Jewish background were among those most likely to convert to Islam; there numbers were matched by protestant converts, each group reporting 7 who left their ranks to become Muslims. Each group them made up roughly12.7% of all new Muslims in the survey, but given that the number of Jewish adherents from which to draw is less than 1/10th ofthe number of protestant (and that aggregate Catholic numbers are larger than protestant figures), this means a significantly larger percentage of Jews converting to Islam than any other religious group. With regard to Catholicism, the actual number of new Muslims who reported that they had been raised Catholic was 4, or 7.3% of those new to Islam.


My review of the sampling process for this survey indicates that there was a bias to western cultures. So, there may be higher conversion rates among Catholics raised in non-western cultures, but certainly for those of us reporting from Europe and the Americas the reality is that what has been reflected by the personal observation of those who have noticed a larger number of Catholic reverts in their personal lives and on YouTube is going to have to find another explanation, for the reality is that Catholics in these countries are reverting to Islam at a lesser rate than all other Christians (except the Orthodox), and that it is those of no previous faith who are the majority of those adopting Islam as reverts from outside of the Ummah.

Peace Gene,

Needless to say that shot a big hole in my Theory. But verifiable facts are facts even if they are different from what I expected. I do appreciate your effort and Thank You for your time.

Now I am curious to find why most reverts I personally know are former Catholics. Nearly all reverts I know personally are from the Dakotas, Minnesota and Texas none of which seem to have a high Catholic Population,
Yet except for 8 Native American Reverts I know, every revert I know was at one time Catholic.

[Grace Seeker]

Peace Gene,

Needless to say that shot a big hole in my Theory. But verifiable facts are facts even if they are different from what I expected. I do appreciate your effort and Thank You for your time.

Now I am curious to find why most reverts I personally know are former Catholics. Nearly all reverts I know personally are from the Dakotas, Minnesota and Texas none of which seem to have a high Catholic Population,
Yet except for 8 Native American Reverts I know, every revert I know was at one time Catholic.

I have a theory, and again it is only a theory, that most people are attracted to like-minded people as themselves, people with whom we have things in common. In your case, as a person who has made the transition from Catholicism to Islam, it maybe be that you are going to naturally find people who have a similar background to you.

But I think there is a second issue that is perhaps even more pertinent. Have you ever had the experience of buying a new (or at least new to you) car? I'm always amazed that it doesn't matter what model I buy, but there are immediatley more of them on the road the day after. Now, I don't really suppose that everyone is running out the same day I am buying the same model car I am. Rather, I suspect that I suddenly become more aware of it because I now own that model. I wonder if you had come to Islam out of some other faith background than Catholicism if you wouldn't be amazed at how many of those folk you ran into.

And then there is the other thing that I learned in studying statistics. The odds of flipping a coin and having it land heads is only 50% on each and every flip. So, even the odds of it landing heads 10 times in a row is less than .1%, if it has already landed heads the last 9 times in a row, the odds of it landing heads the next time and making 10 in a row is still exactly 50%. And if you flip a coin long enough, you are going to have that one time out of a thousand that you end up with a streak of 10 heads in a row. So, you might be just that lucky person that happens to know Catholic reverts, because, given enough different options, it is going to happen to someone sometime.

[Woodrow]

I have a theory, and again it is only a theory, that most people are attracted to like-minded people as themselves, people with whom we have things in common. In your case, as a person who has made the transition from Catholicism to Islam, it maybe be that you are going to naturally find people who have a similar background to you.

But I think there is a second issue that is perhaps even more pertinent. Have you ever had the experience of buying a new (or at least new to you) car? I'm always amazed that it doesn't matter what model I buy, but there are immediatley more of them on the road the day after. Now, I don't really suppose that everyone is running out the same day I am buying the same model car I am. Rather, I suspect that I suddenly become more aware of it because I now own that model. I wonder if you had come to Islam out of some other faith background than Catholicism if you wouldn't be amazed at how many of those folk you ran into.

And then there is the other thing that I learned in studying statistics. The odds of flipping a coin and having it land heads is only 50% on each and every flip. So, even the odds of it landing heads 10 times in a row is less than .1%, if it has already landed heads the last 9 times in a row, the odds of it landing heads the next time and making 10 in a row is still exactly 50%. And if you flip a coin long enough, you are going to have that one time out of a thousand that you end up with a streak of 10 heads in a row. So, you might be just that lucky person that happens to know Catholic reverts, because, given enough different options, it is going to happen to someone sometime.

I believe your first paragraph may be what I am seeing.

I have a theory, and again it is only a theory, that most people are attracted to like-minded people as themselves, people with whom we have things in common. In your case, as a person who has made the transition from Catholicism to Islam, it maybe be that you are going to naturally find people who have a similar background to you.

Reflecting over the reverts I know best, we do have very similar back grounds and likes and dislikes.

Also, we tend to be a bit of extroverts and those around us are very much aware of what our views are. Might be that some of us former Catholics are very vocal about telling people we are former Catholics.

[Italianguy]

Could explain why I am here......I was Raised Roman Catholic, with a sprinkle of Orthodox.

[Saghas]

I am a Roman Catholic (a traditionalist no less). I am comfortable with Islam in many ways because like some have said before in this thread-it is not much of a leap. Especially from a traditionalist perspective.

We pray at least three times a day.
Fast and do penance often.
Ritually cleanse ourselves before prayer (sign of the cross w/ holy water)
Women must be covered and wear head covering in church
Set roles of women and men
Importance of Scripture. etc

But I am not comfortable with Islam in many other ways because especially within the traditionalist community, many see Islam as the biggest threat to the Church and the faithful in the world. They see Islam as being a demonic force in the world that will cripple the Church unless it is stopped. I have been hearing this for three years now and it is a minor miracle I am looking into Islam again now because last week I agreed with them...

I am struggling right now though. I am begging any and all former Catholics on here that have become Muslim to either respond here or PM me and tell me how and why they became Muslim. I need some help. I am torn, I want to follow God but I cannot tell whether Catholicism or Islam is correct. I do not want to end up in Hell...I just want to please God.

pax vobiscum

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

..I am not comfortable with Islam in many other ways

Did u read holy Quran ? What's your main doubt / objection about it ?

I pray that God will help you to find out the truth .

[Italianguy]

Woodrow, it's funny. I can't understand exactly what Catholicism and Islam have in common all that much. Other than the strict rules of both religions. Rather, I'd say my religion, Protestant Christainity, is closer. And here's why:

1) Protestants pray to God like Muslims. No Virgin Mary or saint 'middle man' so to speak.
2) Protestant churches and Islamic mosques to do not tolerate idols of God or prophets/saints in them.
3) Textual criticism- Protestants, especially liberal ones, reject the Catholic idea that the Bible is an infallable word of God, an idea not to be found in Catholicism.
4) Fantics- both Protestants and Muslims have their fair share of these.
5) Dynamcy- The most dynamic religions in the modern world today are popular Protestantism and resurgent Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Protestantism

As a former traditional Roman Catholic, I still pray in prostrate just like my family from the old country. I am protestant and can not agree with number 3. Your right, no Idols! Fanatics are everywhere in every faith, that's undeniable. Last one is true.

God be with you brother!

[Saghas]

Salaam/Peace




Did u read holy Quran ? What's your main doubt / objection about it ?

I pray that God will help you to find out the truth .

I am reading it right now. It is beautiful! But you have to understand, it is very difficult for me to believe Catholicism is false. I had a very strong faith until a few days ago.
Thank you for your prayers! I need them!

[Supreme]

I am reading it right now. It is beautiful! But you have to understand, it is very difficult for me to believe Catholicism is false. I had a very strong faith until a few days ago.
Thank you for your prayers! I need them!

You always had strong faith? I always thought faith was a rollercoaster, where you have bursts of strong faith and then bursts of weak faith (and the latter only really exists to strengthen your faith in the long run).

[Saghas]

You always had strong faith? I always thought faith was a rollercoaster, where you have bursts of strong faith and then bursts of weak faith (and the latter only really exists to strengthen your faith in the long run).

Of course not, there have been times when I doubted things but this time in my life I was as firm a Catholic as I could be. But Islam is challenging my faith. In the "discover Islam" forum I posted a few examples of why under "Jesus/Catholicism".

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

.
Thank you for your prayers! I need them!

Welcome .

May be u would like to read some related stories .

These are a few of the creeds of Catholicism that I had always found difficult:

• The Christian clergy of priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, etc. Why do we need a hierarchy? Could a religion operate without one?
• Divinity of Christ. Did he actually claim divinity? What was that first commandment again?
• Doctrine of the Trinity. Sorry, I just don't get it. Anyway, some prominent Christian leaders now openly doubt it, as do some Christian sects, for example, the Unitarians.
• Church statues. Idols are breakable. Anyway, what was that second commandment again?
• Infallibility of the Pope. But he did make errors, for example when condemning Copernicus for saying the Earth revolved around the sun.
• Original sin. A newborn baby has inherent sin and needs forgiveness (baptism)? Again, somehow difficult to understand.
• Worshiping "saints." Do we need an agent to reach God?
• Transubstantiation. Where bread and wine are transformed (literally) into the flesh and blood of Christ during the Mass. Are there elements of paganism here?
• Christ died on the cross for the "sins of the world." If Christ died for our sins in advance, then why bother trying to be good? Anyway, did he really claim this?

Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...#ixzz0hY3ZhGBg

You Are a Muslim, You Just Don’t Know It Yet

there was a change of Pope. Pope Pius XXII died in 1958 and Pope John XXIII was elected as his successor.

Catholics are taught that the Pope is infallible (incapable of being wrong) and yet, rules are often changed/updated by new Popes.
It seemed illogical to me that some things had to be changed if the previous Pope was incapable of making a mistake. In the 14th and 15th centuries there was a period when there were two Popes, one in France and one in Rome. Each of the Popes excommunicated and constantly ruled against one another.
For a very short time there were even three Popes. How could two or even three Popes, be infallible if they constantly ruled against one another? The more I learned, the more unsettled I became. I questioned everything; after all, if something is true, it should be easy to explain.
The teachers grew more frustrated with my questions and ended up beating me with canes because they could not give me proper answers. Repeatedly, I was told I just had to have faith.

Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...#ixzz0hY5vjh4C

[Supreme]

The Christian clergy of priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, etc. Why do we need a hierarchy? Could a religion operate without one?

ORGANIZED religion, Muslim Woman. The clue's in the name; it's an organization, with a hierachy.

Church statues. Idols are breakable. Anyway, what was that second commandment again?

I agree that idols aren't right, however, you should remember that Catholics don't worship idols.

Christ died on the cross for the "sins of the world." If Christ died for our sins in advance, then why bother trying to be good? Anyway, did he really claim this?

This is not just Catholicism, but Christianity in general: If we don't bother to do good, than we are taking Christ's sacrifice in vain. His sacrifice is not a 'get out of jail free card', and should not be interpreted as such; rather, it is expression of how far God is prepared to go to love and forgive human beings, who are all sinners in some way, that He is prepared to sacrifice His own Son and put the sins of the world on His son- so that, as opposed to the animal sacrifices to atone for our sins, we can look to Jesus to atone for our sins. Also, He did claim it, to quote one example:

27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

(Matthew 26:27-29)

It's clear you have a lot of enquires in relation to not just Catholics, but Christians in general. Why not take your questions to the Questions for Christians thread?

[Grace Seeker]

Catholics are taught that the Pope is infallible (incapable of being wrong) and yet, rules are often changed/updated by new Popes.
It seemed illogical to me that some things had to be changed if the previous Pope was incapable of making a mistake.

But there is quite a difference between saying that popes are fallible and Christianity is untrue.

It isn't a pope that declares Jesus to have been crucified and raised again. Yet a Muslim would have to declare that none of those things ever happened.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

It's clear you have a lot of enquires in relation to not just Catholics, but Christians in general. Why not take your questions to the Questions for Christians thread?

well , these are not my questions . I found these in an ex - Catholics story . Anyway to know about Catholics belief , I went to Catholic forum but now banned .

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

But there is quite a difference between saying that popes are fallible and Christianity is untrue..

It was the thinking of a Catholic ( ex ). But we ( Muslims ) do believe that Popes are fallible.


.

It isn't a pope that declares Jesus to have been crucified and raised again. Yet a Muslim would have to declare that none of those things ever happened.

because holy Quran says that Jesus pbuh did not die on the Cross. Does not matter what Popes think / say about this. Quran is the criteria for us to judge the matter.

[Grace Seeker]

But we ( Muslims ) do believe that Popes are fallible.

And many Christians would agree with that statement. They are called protestants. I'm saying that just because one questions the infallibility of the role of the papacy, one does not have to throw the baby out with the bathwater and abandon faith in Jesus.

Likewise, just because one has some doubts about some of the things one has encountered in the behavior of some who go by the name Christian or a few specific aspects of the institutional church does not requite that a person walk away from faith in Jesus.

Therefore, I submit that those of us who have had a personal encounter of faith with the living Jesus are allowed to doubt some of the things we find in the institution of the church, it doesn't mean we have to live apart from Christ and cannot ourselves be part of the body of Christ, even as we search for the best fit with regard to in what congregation we will find the needed support for our faith walk.

because holy Quran says that Jesus pbuh did not die on the Cross. Does not matter what Popes think / say about this. Quran is the criteria for us to judge the matter.

And if indeed one can accept that statement from the Qur'an as true, it would be reason to abandon all Christian teaching which is founded on the reality and atoning value of Christ's sacrifice. For me, that such a testimony is found in the Qur'an is sufficient reason, even with the great love I have for Muslim people and the ethic of Islam, that I could never say the Shahadah. That line just doesn't ring true. But you're exactly right, it doesn't matter what Popes think/say about this. It only matters only whether or not one believes the Bible or the Qur'an to be true in reporting the death of Christ.

[Woodrow]

And many Christians would agree with that statement. They are called protestants. I'm saying that just because one questions the infallibility of the role of the papacy, one does not have to throw the baby out with the bathwater and abandon faith in Jesus.

Likewise, just because one has some doubts about some of the things one has encountered in the behavior of some who go by the name Christian or a few specific aspects of the institutional church does not requite that a person walk away from faith in Jesus.

Therefore, I submit that those of us who have had a personal encounter of faith with the living Jesus are allowed to doubt some of the things we find in the institution of the church, it doesn't mean we have to live apart from Christ and cannot ourselves be part of the body of Christ, even as we search for the best fit with regard to in what congregation we will find the needed support for our faith walk.


And if indeed one can accept that statement from the Qur'an as true, it would be reason to abandon all Christian teaching which is founded on the reality and atoning value of Christ's sacrifice. For me, that such a testimony is found in the Qur'an is sufficient reason, even with the great love I have for Muslim people and the ethic of Islam, that I could never say the Shahadah. That line just doesn't ring true. But you're exactly right, it doesn't matter what Popes think/say about this. It only matters only whether or not one believes the Bible or the Qur'an to be true in reporting the death of Christ.

Peace Gene,

One of the most difficult concepts non-Christians have, is the Role of the Pope. Many if not most non-Christians are under the impression the Pope represents Christianity.

Needless to say your last paragraph pretty well sums up one of the biggest differences between us. Each of us has our reasons for believing as we do and it is doubtful we will come to any compromise over the Crucifixion

[Sampharo]

Catholics are taught that the Pope is infallible (incapable of being wrong) and yet, rules are often changed/updated by new Popes.
.
.
.
The teachers grew more frustrated with my questions and ended up beating me with canes because they could not give me proper answers. Repeatedly, I was told I just had to have faith.

Same reason why my wife reverted. I find that most catholics and christians have reverted because of this apparent clerical and pope divinity and infallibility claims that are never truly accepted wholeheartedly. Most for her was that to absolve the sins you need to confess to a priest, yet those priests were sometimes (and as shown recently in the paedophilia scandals) to be just as sinful if not worse than average people.

Why again would an infallible pope, proven fallible over and over again, along with his appointed sinful clergy, be the "agents" of God? That is the question that kept chipping away at my wife's heart, and the whole jazz routine crumbled when she read about Islam truthfully and understood the real story of Jesus and Moses and Mohammad -Salawatu Allahi Wasalamuhu AAlaihim-.

ORGANIZED religion, Muslim Woman. The clue's in the name; it's an organization, with a hierachy

That is precisely it though, catholics are quickly realizing that it goes against logic and reason as well as the commandments of Allah as well as the actual stories in the bible itself, to have the path of heaven locked in the hands of an organization. It is gaming the way to paradise that is falling against the wall of inner logic:

• Jesus coming down in Jerusulum, from a jewish descendency and speaking Aramaic, yet the church speaks and prays in Latin, and gets based in a land far away out of the city where the biggest persecutions of christians were made, and ends up being led by European Popes claiming to be divine infallible agents.
• That along with contradictions of Priests and clergy cannot marry or father children, yet to catholics Jesus is the son of God.
• The fact that 95% of the religion is released after Jesus death, and includes fundamentals surrounding events brought about after the death, and the well-known massacre of gospels made at the beginning of the church, it is quite hard to continue having "faith".

Organized religion is nothing more than organizations wanting to profit out of people's natural need and desire to reach God, and the organization's tool is creating a need for them to be in the middle. Such are the fundamental reasons why all those churches are registered as profitable organizations, and that is how Islam stands separate from all these fabrications of men, and why I believe catholics are converting most of all christians, to Islam.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Woodrow;1303522]

One of the most difficult concepts non-Christians have, is the Role of the Pope. Many if not most non-Christians are under the impression the Pope represents Christianity.

[QUOTE]


Pope should represent whole christianity as he represent one and only true Church, which saved unchangable moral teachings and theology. The first pope was apostle Peter. The role of catholic pope is a tradition blessed by God, otherwise Creator wouldn't allow of such long existence of papacy in Rome.

[Grace Seeker]

One of the most difficult concepts non-Christians have, is the Role of the Pope. Many if not most non-Christians are under the impression the Pope represents Christianity.

Pope should represent whole christianity as he represent one and only true Church, which saved unchangable moral teachings and theology. The first pope was apostle Peter. The role of catholic pope is a tradition blessed by God, otherwise Creator wouldn't allow of such long existence of papacy in Rome.

I ask those who read Amadeus to respect and acknowledge his view as that which represents the Catholic Church. As a non-Catholic Christian I would ask you to respect and acknowledge that it does not represent the view of every Christian.

[Grace Seeker]

Organized religion is nothing more than organizations wanting to profit out of people's natural need and desire to reach God, and the organization's tool is creating a need for them to be in the middle. Such are the fundamental reasons why all those churches are registered as profitable organizations, and that is how Islam stands separate from all these fabrications of men, and why I believe catholics are converting most of all christians, to Islam.

A few different things:
1) You've asserted that you believe "catholics are converting most of all christians, to Islam." I encourage you to read my post #33 on page 3.

2) You've stated "churches are registered as profitable organizations." I'm not aware of this being true. Those churches for which I am aware of their status are registered a non-profit organizations.

3) You also claim, "Organized religion is nothing more than organizations wanting to profit out of people's natural need and desire to reach God." The reality is that there are many forms of organized religion and probably as many reasons for it as their are forms. No doubt, some have done so for the purpose of making a profit. But equally undoubtable is that not all have organized for that reason. And though you try to imply otherwise, even Islam is organized: it has organized Jurisprudence; it's major division into Sunni and Shi'ite have to do with authority and this translates to organizational issues; and the administration of the Caliphate is a prime example of organized religion. But I do understand what you mean in saying that the Ummah is not organized. That the existance of organized Islamic congregations that build mosques and have registered status with their respective governments is not the same as saying that all of Islam is organized. Yet, this would be true of every religion of which I can think. Certainly this is true with respect to Christianity. Though I am the pastor of an organized congregation and we are affiliated with other congregations through our denominational organization. Our connection with other congregations outside of our denomination and with Christendom as a whole is decidedly unorganized, for no such organization exists. As such, I think your criticism of organized religion in general, and the implied critique of organized Christianity in particular is misplaced and unfounded.

[Supreme]

That is precisely it though, catholics are quickly realizing that it goes against logic and reason as well as the commandments of Allah as well as the actual stories in the bible itself, to have the path of heaven locked in the hands of an organization. It is gaming the way to paradise that is falling against the wall of inner logic:


Jesus coming down in Jerusulum, from a jewish descendency and speaking Aramaic, yet the church speaks and prays in Latin, and gets based in a land far away out of the city where the biggest persecutions of christians were made, and ends up being led by European Popes claiming to be divine infallible agents.
That along with contradictions of Priests and clergy cannot marry or father children, yet to catholics Jesus is the son of God.
The fact that 95% of the religion is released after Jesus death, and includes fundamentals surrounding events brought about after the death, and the well-known massacre of gospels made at the beginning of the church, it is quite hard to continue having "faith".

Organized religion is nothing more than organizations wanting to profit out of people's natural need and desire to reach God, and the organization's tool is creating a need for them to be in the middle. Such are the fundamental reasons why all those churches are registered as profitable organizations, and that is how Islam stands separate from all these fabrications of men, and why I believe catholics are converting most of all christians, to Islam.

I don't know, I've considered converting to Catholicism before. The infallibility and organizational structure of it all just made it all the more appealing to me. Which other organization can claim a billion members? Not many, that's for sure.

[Seeker1066]

Salaam/Peace



Welcome .

May be u would like to read some related stories .

These are a few of the creeds of Catholicism that I had always found difficult:

• The Christian clergy of priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, etc. Why do we need a hierarchy? Could a religion operate without one?
• Divinity of Christ. Did he actually claim divinity? What was that first commandment again?
• Doctrine of the Trinity. Sorry, I just don't get it. Anyway, some prominent Christian leaders now openly doubt it, as do some Christian sects, for example, the Unitarians.
• Church statues. Idols are breakable. Anyway, what was that second commandment again?
• Infallibility of the Pope. But he did make errors, for example when condemning Copernicus for saying the Earth revolved around the sun.
• Original sin. A newborn baby has inherent sin and needs forgiveness (baptism)? Again, somehow difficult to understand.
• Worshiping "saints." Do we need an agent to reach God?
• Transubstantiation. Where bread and wine are transformed (literally) into the flesh and blood of Christ during the Mass. Are there elements of paganism here?
• Christ died on the cross for the "sins of the world." If Christ died for our sins in advance, then why bother trying to be good? Anyway, did he really claim this?

Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...#ixzz0hY3ZhGBg

You Are a Muslim, You Just Don’t Know It Yet

there was a change of Pope. Pope Pius XXII died in 1958 and Pope John XXIII was elected as his successor.

Catholics are taught that the Pope is infallible (incapable of being wrong) and yet, rules are often changed/updated by new Popes.
It seemed illogical to me that some things had to be changed if the previous Pope was incapable of making a mistake. In the 14th and 15th centuries there was a period when there were two Popes, one in France and one in Rome. Each of the Popes excommunicated and constantly ruled against one another.
For a very short time there were even three Popes. How could two or even three Popes, be infallible if they constantly ruled against one another? The more I learned, the more unsettled I became. I questioned everything; after all, if something is true, it should be easy to explain.
The teachers grew more frustrated with my questions and ended up beating me with canes because they could not give me proper answers. Repeatedly, I was told I just had to have faith.

Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...#ixzz0hY5vjh4C

You are confusing Infallibility of the Papal Office with Impecibility which would mean the pope was perfect. The Pope is only considered Infallible when he speaks on Faith and Morals and speaks Ex Cathedra(From the Chair of Peter) by a formal declaration. Such as The Immaculate Conception and Assumption Dogmas. He is also infallible when he teaches what has always and everywhere been taught by the Church such as that Women cannot be priests. The last Infallibility is assigned when the Magesterium in Union with the Pope makes a solem declaration on faith or morals. Popes have never been thought to be infallible in all they do or say. This is a case of people opposing what they think the Church teaches.

Peace to all

[Sampharo]

A few different things:
1) You've asserted that you believe "catholics are converting most of all christians, to Islam." I encourage you to read my post #33 on page 3.

Thanks. Like you said though in the post, the list of countries are strictly European and Western so there is a bias. Not only that, but their sample size taken (480 out of 70,000) is suggesting muslims were 0.6% of the European and American population, when it is actually 10 times that on average in Europe and 4 times in America and Australia. So it's already flawed.

I see also more than just a bias though, because the study was addressing the number of conversions out of catholicism to whatever denominations, not the number of christians converting to Islam and how many of those christians were catholics.

2) You've stated "churches are registered as profitable organizations." I'm not aware of this being true. Those churches for which I am aware of their status are registered a non-profit organizations.

Catholic was primarily land and money, so much so that they established the separate state of the vatican just to maintain their autonomy and their funds away from any european turmoil, with swiss guards (and bankers :o)) helping out. Yes, maybe the English and Lutheran churches were based in the beginning on reasons other than immediate profit and domination, but I was speaking today in terms of the churches as organizations: They are established in the United States as tax-exempt institutions, with non-profit offshoot foundations that support charities, but primarily earn and maintain positive income:

"Church Budgets and Income
Current research data on churches
by John C. LaRue, Jr. | posted 9/01/2000

1 of 1

As a church deacon and ministry executive, I understand the challenge and the faith that goes into projecting income and planning expenses for a church. Since the majority of churches will be preparing next year's budget in the fall, Your Church offers this study data on church finances. Find out how your own congregation compares.
Sources of Income
The typical church counts on tithes and offerings for 93 percent of its budget. Investments (2%), revenue from programs and ministries (1%), and other sources (3%) account for the remainder of a typical church's income. Churches with budgets greater than $500,000 depend less on tithes and offerings (87% of income) than the average church, and more on revenue from programs and ministries (5%) and other sources (6%).
Buy the rest of this article and get the complete results of the Church Research Report. Download Here.
John C. LaRue, Jr., is vice president of Christianity Online for Christianity Today, International, in Carol Stream, Illinois."

3) You also claim, "Organized religion is nothing more than organizations wanting to profit out of people's natural need and desire to reach God." The reality is that there are many forms of organized religion and probably as many reasons for it as their are forms.

I understand what you mean but I hold on to my position. Churches by design claim to be "agents" of God and wish to stand in between the people and the creator, and are run as a business with money flowing in needing to be more than money flowing out. Some are outrageous in demanding 10 or 20% out of their member's income as a tithe, some are more subtle and civilized in that they ask for or encourage donations, but they all run on that basis of budgets and income, and would point it out in sermons if the collection plate come back kind of light. Just because the church pastor asks for "donations" in the service, does not mean that the money are all going to charities. They go into the church funds, and these funds need to be in the black.

[Grace Seeker]

I understand what you mean but I hold on to my position. Churches by design claim to be "agents" of God and wish to stand in between the people and the creator, and are run as a business with money flowing in needing to be more than money flowing out. Some are outrageous in demanding 10 or 20% out of their member's income as a tithe, some are more subtle and civilized in that they ask for or encourage donations, but they all run on that basis of budgets and income, and would point it out in sermons if the collection plate come back kind of light. Just because the church pastor asks for "donations" in the service, does not mean that the money are all going to charities. They go into the church funds, and these funds need to be in the black.

I'm not arguing with the process you have given. That's exactly where my income comes from as well. It certainly does not all go to other charities beyond the church. Of course, I would submit the what people receive for their donations are intangible religious services. And that they give to be sure that the church is able to continue to offer those specific religious services: a building in which to meet; a pastor who will deliver a sermon and visit them; a program to educate their children in the faith; a soup kitchen to feed the hungry of the community; utilities so that there is light, water, and heat when they gather for service; etc...

But mosques have similar expenses. And like churches they have their process to be sure they are able to meet them. One may or not pay for staff (though I'm sure most work in both is done by volunteers), and the way donations are received might be the passing of the plate in one and soliciting through letters and other means in the other, but I fail to see any significant difference between them enough to make the statement you did earilier.

Organized religion is nothing more than organizations wanting to profit out of people's natural need and desire to reach God, and the organization's tool is creating a need for them to be in the middle. Such are the fundamental reasons why all those churches are registered as profitable** organizations, and that is how Islam stands separate from all these fabrications of men...

**Also, do you really mean to say "profitable"? No one has to register as "profitable". Churches register as "non-profit organizations" (in the USA, as 501.c3 organizations), and the term "non-profit" would also make more sense to the point of your argument.

[aadil77]

^In a masjid no one takes an income to give sermons or cook and provide food, everything is voluntary and for Allah.

In fact a mosque will usually have two donation boxes for people to choose from, one is called 'sadaqah' which is purely charity for others and another called 'lillah' which is donations to help run the mosque.

I don't understand how anyone can take an income from donations to do work for god

[Sampharo]

But mosques have similar expenses. And like churches they have their process to be sure they are able to meet them.

They don't.

One may or not pay for staff (though I'm sure most work in both is done by volunteers), and the way donations are received might be the passing of the plate in one and soliciting through letters and other means in the other, but I fail to see any significant difference between them enough to make the statement you did earilier.

The differences are:

1. There is no such ownership or organization behind the mosque that collects the "expenses" and would ask people to donate to meet them. The masjid is built either by communal efforts, or on rulerhip funds as it should be under Islamic rule. A prayer leader who demands money for his services from the public muslims is not only unworthy of leading prayer, but as Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal explained it is not even allowed to accommodate one who does. The state or rulership are allowed to arrange salaries only to dedicated caretakers who may make the athan, lead the prayer, mind the cleanliness etc. No one demands donations neither by plate or letters or anyway. There is no bank account for the masjid, financial statements, or organizational affiliation (Even if some sects have resorted to that, it's a great deviation that reduces their status to that of a cult).
2. No Religious services are provided by the masjid. Some charitable libraries or islamic education centers or marriage registry may attach themselves to a masjid (especially in unislamic countries), but the masjid itself provides nothing more than a place where people pray. There are no religious services provided to start with. Scholars and lecturers might visit masjids to give lectures, but these are not services and none of them would expect to earn out of that money.
3. There is no claim of "intermediary" status claimed by a masjid. No masjid claims they have a cleric who absolves sins, baptizes, or blesses anyone.

**Also, do you really mean to say "profitable"? No one has to register as "profitable". Churches register as "non-profit organizations" (in the USA, as 501.c3 organizations), and the term "non-profit" would also make more sense to the point of your argument.

Churches ARE registered as tax-exempt institutions that can turn out a profit, just because branch chapels and foundations are registered as non-profit charities does not mean the organizational "Church" is. Church management is a business, and organizations behind them are using the money funneled to pay themselves along with the charities they support. They hold back funds, reinvest in businesses, and grow portfolios.

Catholic church is worth over 100 billion dollars (Pretty close to Microsoft, don't you think?) and is still piling on assets and money. Mormon church is crossing 10 billion dollars in annual income thanks to their tithing. European churches have went into set taxes out of its members and are reinvesting "surplus" money, and Protestant churches far and wide continue to collect money and funnel whatever is above the local chapter's budget to the organizational headquarters. In rural areas (like Kiribati, Micronesia) and other places some of the church members have given up more than half of their personal income to the church which was sent to the church HQ:

"CHURCH FINANCES The one dominant issue of the Church is finance. It has caused deep concern in the K.P.C. since at least the early 1990's - but while in the 90's there was keen debate around the issue, by this year there seemed resignation, perplexity, or anger. There had been a debate, said Rev. Bureieta: "Are we a Church or are we a business?"
Large sums of money flow from the island Churches into H.Q. in Antebuka, South Tarawa. On the basis of numerous discussions, I estimate that 60-70% of the total annual income of the local Churches flows into H.Q., and that local Church members give up 30-40% of their total annual income to sustain this. In one Church, members gave 50% of their personal income, in another 75%, and in a few cases 100% (many I-Kiribati onlyearn money for the benefit of the Church - their everyday existence requires no money at all)."


http://www.janesoceania.com/kiribati_kpc/index.htm


So yes church charity foundations and activities may be indeed non-profit, but church organizations are certainly not, and they can be registered and run like a trust or corporation. (Or do you think that Church of Scientology (I know it's not christian, but still a registered church) is run as a non-profit organization?)

[Grace Seeker]

Sampharo,

I'll accept that there elements to the organization structure of a masjid that am still learning. I ask that you might recognize the same is true with regard to churches. When you say,

So yes church charity foundations and activities may be indeed non-profit, but church organizations are certainly not, and they can be registered and run like a trust or corporation.

They can be, but that doesn't mean that all are. Such a statement is too broad. There are churches, church organizations that are indeed non-profit. You may have been unaware of that before. But know now they do exist.

I can tell you that in the small community in which I live there are several church. The pastors of those churches (including the Roman Catholic priest) get together once a month. And when we do we often compare notes. None of us are attemtping to run our churches as a profit. And none are organized for that purpose. We want to pay our bills, educate in the fiath, and do charitable work and that is all -- and not necessarily in that order. (In some cases we have hired staff to help be sure that the above is done, but again most work is done by volunteers.) Anyway, around the table of ministers, more than once we have talked about the attitude that sometimes does creep in when churches are having trouble paying their bills, and someone speaks up and says, "Well, you have to run the church like a business." Our universal response is, "That's fine. But remember, we aren't in the business of builing bank accounts, but building the kingdom of God." This is the more univesal understanding that I have from my experienc within it and why I still disagree with your initial assessment:

Organized religion is nothing more than organizations wanting to profit out of people's natural need and desire to reach God

[Sampharo]

Let me ask you then:

- Did you receive a budget to build or buy or rent the church you are running right now, and then HQ is not getting anything back, and are not expecting you to ever send any return?

- How much do you as a pastor earn and how much assets were bought by the local church-house? Are the assets in the name of the community or in the name of the church?

- Since you and the other pastors from the other churches in the community come together once a month, do you then have amicable agreements on not "poaching" followers of each other, or did you agree not to send missionaries but will accept whomever comes to your door?

- Does the fact that people are reverting to religions outside the churches, and therefore reducing the income of the churches, bear any effect on your strategies in the neighborhood?

[aadil77]

Sampharo,

I'll accept that there elements to the organization structure of a masjid that am still learning. I ask that you might recognize the same is true with regard to churches. When you say,


They can be, but that doesn't mean that all are. Such a statement is too broad. There are churches, church organizations that are indeed non-profit. You may have been unaware of that before. But know now they do exist.

I can tell you that in the small community in which I live there are several church. The pastors of those churches (including the Roman Catholic priest) get together once a month. And when we do we often compare notes. None of us are attemtping to run our churches as a profit. And none are organized for that purpose. We want to pay our bills, educate in the fiath, and do charitable work and that is all -- and not necessarily in that order. (In some cases we have hired staff to help be sure that the above is done, but again most work is done by volunteers.) Anyway, around the table of ministers, more than once we have talked about the attitude that sometimes does creep in when churches are having trouble paying their bills, and someone speaks up and says, "Well, you have to run the church like a business." Our universal response is, "That's fine. But remember, we aren't in the business of builing bank accounts, but building the kingdom of God." This is the more univesal understanding that I have from my experienc within it and why I still disagree with your initial assessment:

I haven't followed the whole thread, but when people donate to your church do they know that are actually paying for your wages and not just for maintenance bills in the church?

[Supreme]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but when people donate to your church do they know that are actually paying for your wages and not just for maintenance bills in the church?

For my church, this is certainly true. We are all aware that the pastoral team and youth ministry need to pay their bills, and they do a brilliant job. We're all too happy to pay their wages, so to speak.

[FAISAL85]

I am a Roman Catholic (a traditionalist no less). I am comfortable with Islam in many ways because like some have said before in this thread-it is not much of a leap. Especially from a traditionalist perspective.

We pray at least three times a day.
Fast and do penance often.
Ritually cleanse ourselves before prayer (sign of the cross w/ holy water)
Women must be covered and wear head covering in church
Set roles of women and men
Importance of Scripture. etc

But I am not comfortable with Islam in many other ways because especially within the traditionalist community, many see Islam as the biggest threat to the Church and the faithful in the world. They see Islam as being a demonic force in the world that will cripple the Church unless it is stopped. I have been hearing this for three years now and it is a minor miracle I am looking into Islam again now because last week I agreed with them...

I am struggling right now though. I am begging any and all former Catholics on here that have become Muslim to either respond here or PM me and tell me how and why they became Muslim. I need some help. I am torn, I want to follow God but I cannot tell whether Catholicism or Islam is correct. I do not want to end up in Hell...I just want to please God.

pax vobiscum

I am reading it right now. It is beautiful! But you have to understand, it is very difficult for me to believe Catholicism is false. I had a very strong faith until a few days ago.
Thank you for your prayers! I need them!

:sl:

i was raised catholic.
sunday school, bein an alter boy, going to mass, sign of the cross, exorcising demons, jesus meant everything to me.
Imagine a man, dieing on the cross for YOU!
and being able to carry the cross was a beautiful feeling.
made me feel like a christian warrior!

let me tell you about my passion of the christ story.
It happened first when i started to have a more deeper relationship with God. I started to fast, and i felt the devil and God were on either side of my shoulder and i was in the middle being torn apart. I was crying all day freaking out lol. cant explain to you what happend.. anyway...
That was when i first had my first true revelation if you want to call it that.
that God will communicate to you if you open your heart to listen.
I never watchd the movie passion of the christ till 3 years after it came out, ya im late i know.
I remember that night before sleeping asking God to give me a sign. about my religion and the secrets that he wants me to discover.
So i had a dream that night.
I had a dream i was talking to this really scary looking man.
Looked like Nosferatu with a black robe and hood, very pale, old but still had a strong disposition.
Speaking to me and coming closer.
I was in the middle of a barren wasteland no water.
And this figure was walking towards me.
Then as soon as he was about to put his hand on me, smiling, this angel picked me up and we started to fly! straight up into the sky, and i could see looking down the scary figure screaming and yelling at me.
But all i felt was the wind and the cool water through the clouds and the warmth of the sun and some angel flying at mach 10.. was so awesome. THEN BLACK.
THEN I WOKE UP. sweating, scared freaked out about the dream.
i woke up with a terrible stomach ache. so terrible.
it was like 4 in th emorning
i went to the bathroom but nothing, my pain started to dissapate and i went back up to my room.
I couldnt sleep but i was still talking to God.
I turned on the TV and on Cinemax jus starting BAM
PASSION OF THE CHRIST.
I watched that movie from begining to end.
oh man i never cried so much in a movie.:cry::cry:
and if youve seen or havent seen the movie...
theres someone that depicts Satan in the movie.. LOOKED EXACTLY LIKE THE BLACK SCARY FIGURE IN MY DREAM!+o( omg
Remember in the end when Jesus gets resurrected and gets sent back to heaven and the clouds open up and whatever.
And you see a shot of Satan screaming to the sky! EXACTLY LIKE MY DREAM.
Wallahi i am not lieing.
anyway... catholicism was my gate.
my gate into islam.
The reason i tell you this is that, you must not give up on finding the truth.
Keep the connection with God OPEN AT ALL TIMES.
Islam provides that connection. That christianity does not offer me.
As much as a Jesus lover i used to be, which i still am, It was my sincere love of my religion that brought me to something even greater.
Catholicism isnt fake... its a stepping stone my friend.
Only through Islam did i discover my cave of secrets.
and relax your not going to hell lol
God loves you too much.
Hes jus testing the condition of your heart.
Those questions you have, are because you are sincere.
How many other brothers or sisters around you question and have the same FEAR you have? and to question the very foundation of your faith requires complete faith.
its a sign!! JESUS LOVES YOU :statisfie:statisfie lol
Allah swt loves you... and Rasulullah pbuh wants you to discover who HE IS ...
look up a man name Hamza Yusuf, learning about Rasulullah pbuh was such a joy and blessing for me. inshallah. So keep on fighting. dont give up.:raging:
:wa:

[Sampharo]

For my church, this is certainly true. We are all aware that the pastoral team and youth ministry need to pay their bills, and they do a brilliant job. We're all too happy to pay their wages, so to speak.

1- Because you were told your membership in the church "justifies" you before God, and that the public prayers and services are are accepted as good deeds?

2- Would you be so happy to pay their bills if you learn that all the chanting and the sermons and services are completely useless and unrelated to God?

[Supreme]

1- Because you were told your membership in the church "justifies" you before God, and that the public prayers and services are are accepted as good deeds?

2- Would you be so happy to pay their bills if you learn that all the chanting and the sermons and services are completely useless and unrelated to God?

1- No. My church is anti religion. Religion is very much redundant in my church, a point my pastor repeatedly emphasises. Being a member of a church does not get you into the Kingdom, and we have a sermon around every few months or so on how you should put neither church nor religion before God. Going to church does not make you right before God.

2- Yes, as they do a brilliant job. They answer my queries, and many of them are close friends of mine. I'm a Christian, and a fundamental lesson Jesus taught is charity. I'm all too happy to give money to those who need it.

[Grace Seeker]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but when people donate to your church do they know that are actually paying for your wages and not just for maintenance bills in the church?

Well, we publish the proposed annual budget for everyone and distribute it to them before we vote to adopt it. It's all in there for anyone to read who takes the time to do so. From their periodic questions I would assume they know this. It's also the standard practice in most (not all) churches, at least in the USA.

[Grace Seeker]

Let me ask you then:

- Did you receive a budget to build or buy or rent the church you are running right now, and then HQ is not getting anything back, and are not expecting you to ever send any return?

No, we did not receive a budget to build the church. It was built with money raised from the members of the congregation themselves.

Many years ago now, this particular congregation decided to connect itself with other congregations that had the same theological set of views in order to do more than just local ministries, but that they might also pool their resources together to be more effective in regional, national, and global ministries. We do send money to our central office for that purpose. Of course, if we ever decidied that we no longer wished to be part of that connection we could disolve that arrangement and they would become an independent congregation again.

- How much do you as a pastor earn and how much assets were bought by the local church-house? Are the assets in the name of the community or in the name of the church?

I earn $50,000, plus free use of a parsonage home. (That's probably just a little over average for our particular denomination.) The assessts are in the name of the local congregation.

- Since you and the other pastors from the other churches in the community come together once a month, do you then have amicable agreements on not "poaching" followers of each other, or did you agree not to send missionaries but will accept whomever comes to your door?

Sometimes "poaching" happens. I'm not aware of any of us doing it actively, but people do change from one congregation to another for a variety of reasons ranging from preference for a particular service style to interpersonal relationships and every thing inbetween.

- Does the fact that people are reverting to religions outside the churches, and therefore reducing the income of the churches, bear any effect on your strategies in the neighborhood?

No. I can remember when it used to. Once upon a time people thought that if we could get more members we would have more money to do more things. Well, the reality is that adding members actually costs a church, because new people tend to make greater demands on services, but don't contribute to supporting the church's ministries at the same level that long-term members typically do. It's taken some time to educate our church's officers with regard to that truth, but our outreach ministries continue to increase both in terms of local and oversees charity work, and local evangelism efforts.

Note: In our local, the problem isn't so much with people reverting to other religions, but people who simply drop out of (or more likely never got involved in) religious communities altogether, in favor of not practicing any religion whatsoever.

[Sampharo]

^ I have to thank you for your honesty. I wouldn't go as far as saying that you may be the victim of your own sincerity, but I would say that I am seeing too much clarity in your own words to warrant your earlier arguments of churches not existing for profit.

Church built out of local community money, then members paying constantly to upkeep it, and that upkeep includes a pastoral salary twice that of a junior executive, in addition to money being sent back to central HQ to cover the fees of being a member. How can you call this NOT a profit-based setting?

Yes you spend a lot of money on charitable work and service provision, but so do established corporations and they call it Social Responsibility. Yes you send very small amounts to HQ, but nobody says you need to MAXIMIZE profit to be a profit-based entity. As a matter of fact you have all the elements of a franchise: Central originator gives doctrine and operating guidelines, and gets paid royalties, while branches are setup by the local constituents.

I am sorry if I have a personal moment here and express an honest opinion: It is a strange and somehow worrying tendency to see people, even good people, fall into the trap of rationalizing everything for themselves in order to stay in a comfort zone of familiarity. Budhists go to their temples and "rent" little statuettes to receive blessings in their business for a year or six months, and run after monks in vans to pay them the due "fees" for a string of blessing around their wrists, Hindus pay the ashram guru to perform every blessing and prayer they need, Mormons and other churches collecting 10% tithes, catholics and protestants promoting and pushing for a support system that raised their value to billions, and in the middle of all this people are ACTUALLY thinking that they "represent" God?

Grace Seeker do you really believe that if God wanted or condoned churches and "working" as ministers and priests, why did Moses work as a sheepherder? Why was Jesus a carpenter? Why did Mohammad manage caravans and die with less than 5 items to his name? How can hundreds of billions of dollars taken away from the people, be the "kingdom of God"? Is the Kingdom of God now nothing more than a profitable organization doing a lot of business, with 70 doctrines in contradiction with each other and somehow God accepts them all? Why have any then?

Although I thank you for your honesty and your answers, I do not see a reason or basis to think you are actually looking at this with an eye of neutrality. I just think you "enjoy" what you're doing and don't care for anything beyond that. It is obvious however that you shouldn't wonder anymore why "people who simply drop out of (or more likely never got involved in) religious communities altogether, in favor of not practicing any religion whatsoever", and shouldn't wonder why the numbers of revert muslims are growing by the day.

Guess it's time to bring this thread back to its original subject then.

[ccc]

maybe because the catholics already left christianity?

[aadil77]

maybe because the catholics already left christianity?

They most likely would have left for a reason, such as beliefs that make no sense to them eg; concept of trinity, jesus being a man and a god, salvation etc etc

[Amadeus85]

They most likely would have left for a reason, such as beliefs that make no sense to them eg; concept of trinity, jesus being a man and a god, salvation etc etc

Believing in trinity and salvation through Jesus Christ is part of catholic theology.

[Grace Seeker]

They most likely would have left for a reason, such as beliefs that make no sense to them eg; concept of trinity, jesus being a man and a god, salvation etc etc

You have to understand, ccc posts from a radically fundamentist view similar to that espoused by Jack Chick that the Catholic Church in Rome is the modern day Babylon. Catholic theology, as expressed in their written Catechsim of the Catholic Church, does in fact teach the concept of the Trinity and that Jesus is both fully God and fully man, and that salvation is through faith in Jesus. Despite all of these things ccc holds that Catholics are not Christians. And if I can project for a moment, if he believes all that Jack Chick claims, despite Catholics holding these core Christian beliefs he still regards the Catholic Church as being an instrument of Satan. That's what I believe he meant when he posted:

maybe because the catholics already left christianity?

---edit------edit----------edit---------edit---------------------

In reading some of ccc's posts elsewhere I believe that I may have mischaracterized him here. There is nothing in any other post that I have read to suggest an attitude similar to that of Jack Chick. ccc, my apologies. I regret the error and beg your forgiveness for jumping to a conclusion.

[Grace Seeker]

Guess it's time to bring this thread back to its original subject then.

Yes, I'm going to repost your question (part of it anyway) in the "Asking Questions of Christians" thread.


--edit---edit---edit-------------------------

Which, sadly, I find has for some reason disappeared from the board. But I found a similar thread, hope you find your post and my response there if you're still interested.

[Supreme]

maybe because the catholics already left christianity?

Oh no. Not one of these 'extremist' types that believes Catholics aren't real Christians. I thought you guys in the lunatic fringe would be too busy proclaiming Fred Phelps as a second Messiah and hating homosexuals to be coming on Islamic forums...

[Grace Seeker]

Oh no. Not one of these 'extremist' types that believes Catholics aren't real Christians. I thought you guys in the lunatic fringe would be too busy proclaiming Fred Phelps as a second Messiah and hating homosexuals to be coming on Islamic forums...

Supreme, I believe I may have mischaracterized ccc. I jumped to a conclusion from a single post and a bad memory. In re-reading some of his posts today, I most admit I have found nothing in any other post by ccc which would substantiate the way I slandered him on the previous page.

[Supreme]

Supreme, I believe I may have mischaracterized ccc. I jumped to a conclusion from a single post and a bad memory. In re-reading some of his posts today, I most admit I have found nothing in any other post by ccc which would substantiate the way I slandered him on the previous page.

He doesn't consider Catholics Christians. Need any more be said on the matter?:hmm:

[Grace Seeker]

He doesn't consider Catholics Christians. Need any more be said on the matter?:hmm:

At first, that is what I thought as well. But after re-reading some of his other posts, I'm not so sure that it is what ccc actually meant by the above post. So, unless he makes it as a declaratory statement, rather than an interrogative, I'm not going to jump to that conclusion in advance of him saying so himself.

[freethinking]

The answer for any "Catholic" is surely that both catholic and muslims are rutualistic religions, which does not really take account of God's amazing Spritual creative spontenaiety. God is not into repetitiveness God loves us to sing praise to him from our hearts, whenever we are moved to do thiis or prompted by God's amazing Holy Spirit.

Both also don't seem to recognise that the ENTIRE Bible in addion to being about Go'ds amazing Love, is from beginning to end all about the Spiritual war with Satan that is going on in and around us to steal our eternal lives with God by Satan. Both also don't seem to recognise that When one walks with the Holy spirit inside one, the devil cannot come near to oneself, we are fully protected.
One profound difference which I found incredible completely contrdicts the idea that A catholic can accommodate the muslim faith, is the complete failure of the muslim world to recognise Jeses war against satan when as a lamb he went to the cross and rose from the dead as prohecised in the old testament and thereby defeated death and by his Blood cleeansed our sins.
True submission to God is to have a personal two way relationship with God and only to trust the words of scripture when the holy spirit reveals the deeper meanings of the words of God.
For example in the first book of Genises we see on day 3 that God introduced Light into this universe and this eternity, but on day 4 God created the Sun, the moon and the stars, so what was the light on the third day? I understand that this was Jesus being brought into this Universe against the darkness that is Satan and his demons.
Peace and God's blessing to you all

[gmcbroom]

As a catholic, I'd say the reason is probably poor catechesis or religious instruction. Starting from the very beginning with the parents and God parents. Then through the church classes and yes even the Masses or Divine Liturgies if their not explained properly they can drive some away. Then you add the scandals within the church and the mistaken attitude that one form of Christianity is the same as another take the terms orthodoxy and heterodoxy. All of these can and probably do contribute to the exodus of some to Islam. I really don't understand revert though. To revert is to come back to a previous state from somewhere\something else. I think convert is the term most appropriate here.
peace be with you.
gmcbroom

[IAmZamzam]

Good thing we finally have this thread, as we've actually discussed the subject recently in another thread, I forget which. I wonder if maybe Islam often strikes Catholic apostates as the version or nearest equivalent of Catholicism that would be true if all the irrational and needless elements are removed from it.

[IAmZamzam]

As a catholic, I'd say the reason is probably poor catechesis or religious instruction. Starting from the very beginning with the parents and God parents. Then through the church classes and yes even the Masses or Divine Liturgies if their not explained properly they can drive some away. Then you add the scandals within the church and the mistaken attitude that one form of Christianity is the same as another take the terms orthodoxy and heterodoxy. All of these can and probably do contribute to the exodus of some to Islam.

It may have something to do with that, as Catholic children are so famous for asking the obvious logical questions brought up by Catholic doctrine and simply having them hand-waved away. But then again most ex-Catholic Muslims are not children, are they?

I really don't understand revert though. To revert is to come back to a previous state from somewhere\something else. I think convert is the term most appropriate here.

It's an old semantic squabble you shouldn't concern yourself with. There is some grounds in our doctrine for calling yourself a revert but words are just words anyway.

[gmcbroom]

Now allow me to clarify something to my Christian brothers and sisters. For when I mean mistaken I don't mean it maliciously. The simple fact is there is almost a cafeteria pick and choose attitude to christian ecclesial communities each saying theirs is the way. Now when I say ecclesial communities its not meant to be derogatory. In Catholism there is only One Church. Now even the current Pope Benedict the 16th said previously, when he was head of the ,Doctrine for the faith,that he sees no reason why there can't be a sanctifying grace in the Lutheran supper.
If he said that for Lutherans, then it may even apply to other Christian ecclesial communities. So that could mean there is varying levels of truth in all of them.

[Ramadhan]

As a catholic, I'd say the reason is probably poor catechesis or religious instruction. Starting from the very beginning with the parents and God parents. Then through the church classes and yes even the Masses or Divine Liturgies if their not explained properly they can drive some away. Then you add the scandals within the church and the mistaken attitude that one form of Christianity is the same as another take the terms orthodoxy and heterodoxy. All of these can and probably do contribute to the exodus of some to Islam.

I see.
So those ex nuns and ex priests didn't attend their church classes and masses and didn't study divine liturgies?

nice try, bro. but smells a bit too desperation.

[gmcbroom]

It wouldn't surprise me Yahya Sulaiman. It's amazing what growing up can do. Take me I was just baptised into the Catholic Church and I'm 36. I grew up in a protestant church but was never baptised. I saw the minister do something rather unchristian like. It affected me so much, I left that church and wandered through the various christian denominations and even read a condensed enligh translation of the Koran for awhile. However I was always curious about catholism. I credit my embracing catholism to my twin brother who never stopped praying for me even though he's never left the church my family has always gone too. I met a coworker who went to a Maronite Catholic church and she invited me there. After praying about it and going through catechesis it took over a year. I was baptised over Pentacost in 2010. I had to embrace and accept dogmas and doctrines, some of which were extremely difficult due to my protestant background. Yet, through prayer I did. I found where I belong and that's in the Catholic church.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom
Many people don't have a problem with the Catholic church. They have a problem, with what they see as the catholic church.

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar I wasn't aware of any ex nuns or priests. The only case i'm aware of is that of a former Non denominational minister named Yusef. That's not quite the same thing. Now I'm aware that a few priests became atheists but thats generally a rejection of All faiths this would include Islam.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

[Woodrow]

Just speaking for myself I believe I received a very strong and accurate Catholic education in the 1940s. Being from typical old world stock and still during the days when the mass was still said in Latin, The Baltimore catechism was the only catechism of choice and the entire Parish had an active interest in seeing that at least one priest would come out of each generation. I was the family selection. went the whole 9 yards, Alter boy, CYO KofC etc and entered seminary with high aspirations. As a Seminarian I soon discovered I could not honestly ever take the vows so to the shame of my family and the Parish I left the Seminary and later left Catholicism,

Many years later when I embraced Islam I came to the opinion that Catholicism gave me sufficient background to prepare for Islam and I was always Muslim, Just searching for the way to practice Islam.

[Woodrow]

Naidamar I wasn't aware of any ex nuns or priests. The only case i'm aware of is that of a former Non denominational minister named Yusef. That's not quite the same thing. Now I'm aware that a few priests became atheists but thats generally a rejection of All faiths this would include Islam.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

I know there are several former seminarians, besides myself, as members here. I believe we also have a few ex-Priests that had taken their vows. But, I will wait for them to post instead of trying to remember who they are

[جوري]

Now I'm aware that a few priests became atheists but thats generally a rejection of All faiths this would include Islam.

Get aware then here are a few priests and missionaries and other types of folks!

Priests and missionaries
Prof. Abdul Ahad Dawud, Former Bishop of Uramiah, Formerly the Reverend David Benjamin Keldani, B.D.
Abdullah al-Faruq – Formerly Kenneth L. Jenkins, minister and elder of the Pentecostal Church
Abu Ishaq, Coptic Cardinal accepts Islam
Anonymous Female Missionary – Former Catholic missionary
Anselm Tormeeda – 14th century CE scholar and priest
Dr. Gary Miller (Abdul-Ahad Omar) – Former missionary
George Anthony – Former Catholic priest
Ibrahim Khalil – Former Egyptian Coptic priest
Dr. Jerald F. Dirks – Former minister (deacon) of the United Methodist Church.
Khadijah ‘Sue’ Watson – Former pastor, missionary, professor. Master’s degree in Divinity
Martin John Mwaipopo – Former Lutheran Archbishop
Muslima, The Former Catholic Missionary (Burundi) I understood that the church was being deceitful
Rabbi Moisha Krivitsky of Makhachkala synagogue. ‘I live in the mosque’.
Raphael Narbaez, Jr.- Former Jehovah’s Witness minister, Latino in Los Anodes.
Ruba Qewar, Jordanian Missionary revert to Islam
Selma A. Cook, , Australian Missionary’s Journey to Allah.
S.M. SULAYMAN, (Former Baptist Church Minister), U.S.A.
Viacheslav Polosin – Former Archpriest of the Russian Orthodox Church
Dr. Yahya A.R. Lehmann, Doctor of Theology, (Former Roman Catholic Priest Germany)
Famous Converts To Islam
Abdur-Raheem Greene (Formerly Anthony Greene) the well known caller to Islam
Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, the great Muslim scholar
Dileep Kumar, Leaving Celebrity Status Behind
Lady Evelyn Zeinab Cobbold, I have always been a Muslim.
Hamza Yusuf (Mark Hanson), Destined for Greek Orthodox priesthood, turned to great Islamic preacher.
Lord Headley Al-Farooq (England), Peer, Statesman, and Author.
Hülya Kandemir, German Pop Singer Finds Destination in Islam.
Dr. Jeffrey Lang, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Kansas, and Author of Islamic books.
Jermaine Jackson, brother of world-famous star Michael Jackson.
Jemima Goldsmith, HEADLINE: Why I chose Islam.
Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe, the greatest writer of the German tradition.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, The greatest basketball player of all time.
Leo Tolstoy, A confession by the Russian giant in the world of literature.
Malcolm X – In His Own Words, USA, The famous Afro-American Muslim.
Michael Wolfe, Author and writer of Islamic documentaries.
Dr. Maurice Bucaille, Author of “The Bible, The Qur’an and Science”,
Muhammad Ali, The first three-time Heavy Weight Champion of the World.
Muhammad Asad (Austria), Statesman, Journalist, Author, and translator of the Quran.
Nuh Ha Mim Keller, From an American Catholic to one of the leading contemporary scholars of Islam.
PROF. UMAR MITA, Economist, Social Worker and Preacher, (Japan).
Wilfried (Murad) Hofmann, German Diplomat And NATO Officer.
Yusuf Islam (Formerly Cat Stevens) Famous ex-Rock Star.
Yvonne Ridley In the Hands of the Taliban: From Captive to Convert
Sisters
Aminah Assilmi “I couldn’t be a Muslim! I was American and white!”
Asiya Abd al-Zahir,Australia, “..the only religion I have ever been completely sure of..”
Chahida Zanabi, Norway, “..i found [a belief that Jesus died] illogical and unjust”
Elizabeth Clarke, Palm Beach Post Religion Writer. Convert Finds Women’s Rights in Islam
Fareena Alam, 18 years old female convert, the author of the great Website: http://www.themodernreligion.com/index.h…
Haji Maryam Mohammed Ahmed, American Muslima, She lives only to talk about Islam
Karen’s Testimony. “If Jesus is God, then why did he have a conversation with God”
Dr. Kari Ann Owen.USA, Jewish, “I began to look .. to Islamic culture for moral guidance”
Madonna Johnson “..all of my turmoil and anxiety was gone..”
Maryam al-Mahdayah, There is no more conflict within, because I have come home”.
Maryam Jameelah, Converts’ Stories: Interview with Maryam (formerly Margaret Marcus)
Maureen McCormick, Life is good for Muslim women
Michelle, “I came from a Jewish family in New York.”
Nakata Khaula, A Japanese Woman’s Experience of Hijab.
Noor, UK, Insights into Women in Islam vs. Women in Hinduism.
Jocelyn Wiener, Times Staff Writer. Young, Female and Muslim
Rashida S. (Rachel Singer) daughter of a devout Roman Catholic mother/very devout Jewish father.
Rita, God works in mysterious ways
Somayyah, From a Bathing Suit to Hijab.
Tasha, I had been studying Islam ever since I was in 7th grade.
Um Luqman, “Jesus(AS) made sense to me as being a Prophet”.
Zainab’s Testimony. USA, “No a guy did not convert me”. An ex-Sunday School teacher
Brothers
Abdullah – My journey to Islam (Video) A must watch.
Abdul Malik Hamidullah, I discovered the logic and simplicity in Islam.
Abdul Malik LeBlanc tells how he discovered Islam within the pages of Bible
Abdus Salam Sipes, A former member of the KKK (Ku Klux Klan)
Adam Wilson, USA, “IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN READ THIS”
Ahmed Corpus (Formerly Marco Corpus), Philippines, Former Sunday School teacher & full-time ministry worker
Dr. ALI SELMAN BENOIST, Doctor of Medicine, and a descendant of a French Catholic family.
Christopher Patrick Nelson, Islam Saved My Mental Health and Returned My Soul .
FAUZUDDIN AHMAD OVERING, Preacher and Social Worker.
Giles Whittell, ‘Allah came knocking at my heart’, The Times UK, 7 January 2000,
Ihsan Chua Gim Sam, Singapore, “..the concept of Trinity was introduced in 325 A.D..”
Jameel William Aalim-Johnson, organizes the weekly Muslim congregational Friday prayer on Capitol Hill
Hussein Amin, My Conversion from Christianity to Islam,
John Kirch, USA, “I went on a 20-year-long search for the truth”
Mahir Abdal-Razzaaq, Native American, Have you ever wondered what the name Tallahassee means?
MAVIS B. JOLLY, The Qur’an, I found, works silently on the spirit.
Mike LoPrete, USA, 19 year old college student. “I didn’t get the idea of the trinity”
Phreddie, My Conversion to Islam, I am only 18, and that fact seems to astound most people.
Sherif Quinn Christianity: The Point of Departure.
Shive Prasad Demolished Babri Masjid, India, That Day – Seeks Forgiveness Today !
Steven Krauss (Abdul-Lateef Abdullah), A Martial Art Led Me to Islam,
TIM WEIS, I have European lineage. I am a Muslim. I am a Westerner
Walter ‘Abdul-Walee’ Gomez, Latino immigrant finds peace in Islam.
Yahya Donald W. Flood, USA, The Best Way to Live and Die



all the best

[Ramadhan]

Naidamar I wasn't aware of any ex nuns or priests. The only case i'm aware of is that of a former Non denominational minister named Yusef. That's not quite the same thing. Now I'm aware that a few priests became atheists but thats generally a rejection of All faiths this would include Islam.

You mean Yusuf estes? Yes, he is among the most famous ones. then forgive me for doubting your ignorance.

Here's a sample list you can start reading or watching about former catholic priests and nuns who reverted to Islam. Feel free to discuss.

http://www.usislam.org/converts/converts.htm

http://www.usislam.org/converts/george.htm

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/2535/

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/586/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkrNyqowXxM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ-xP...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSM1h...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83c53...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgrrM...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ_Bl...eature=related

http://www.muslimconverts.com/newmus...n_Mwaipopo.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmkG9pGKVNw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKWM9...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn0iP...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XFMp...eature=related


is the list enough for you?
let me know if you want more proof of priests and nuns who reverted to islam.

[IAmZamzam]

It wouldn't surprise me Yahya Sulaiman. It's amazing what growing up can do. Take me I was just baptised into the Catholic Church and I'm 36. I grew up in a protestant church but was never baptised. I saw the minister do something rather unchristian like. It affected me so much, I left that church and wandered through the various christian denominations and even read a condensed enligh translation of the Koran for awhile. However I was always curious about catholism. I credit my embracing catholism to my twin brother who never stopped praying for me even though he's never left the church my family has always gone too. I met a coworker who went to a Maronite Catholic church and she invited me there. After praying about it and going through catechesis it took over a year. I was baptised over Pentacost in 2010. I had to embrace and accept dogmas and doctrines, some of which were extremely difficult due to my protestant background. Yet, through prayer I did. I found where I belong and that's in the Catholic church.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom
Many people don't have a problem with the Catholic church. They have a problem, with what they see as the catholic church.

I am curious as to which condensed English translation of the Koran you read?

[gmcbroom]

Yahya Sulaiman, I can't remember the actually title of it. It was a small Dark Blue book etched in gold with Arabic script on the front. It was extremely thick with one side of each page in arabic and the other side in english. I gave it to my brother because he was curious about islam. He was the one who told me it wasn't the full book but condensed (i'd read it but not all the way through.. he on the other hand did.). Still, it wet his appetite to get the Koran. He reads it from time to time. I ocassionally ask him if he's thinking of embracing Islam. So far he's not interested in that. It's no surprise really he just finished college and is finally making the money he's been desiring for years. Religion isn't number one on his list right now. Who know's perhaps he'll join you one day.
Naidamar and Vale's lily, those are impressive lists and conversion accounts I watched a few of them. I wish each of them well in their travels.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom
gmcbroom

[Scimitar]

Peace to you to bro.

[Considering]

There are no prayers, practices or beliefs in Islam that a Roman Catholic would find to be strange or Alien. A Roman Catholic finds everything in Islam to be very familiar and not significantly different from what a practicing Roman Catholic does.

As a Roman Catholic who is considering Islam, I'd observe that there are several reasons.

First, many Roman Catholics were reared in traditions that go back thousands of years. However, all of this was turned over by the changes in the 1960s. These changes have taken a long time to play out but now there are a lot of old Churches which are closing or being "renovated" into modern art monstrosities. The Latin Mass is gone, folk music has replaced the old hymns, etc. It's really hard to feel a sense of the sacred in many modern churches. I find it very interesting that the parts of Catholicism that are the most vibrant (in terms of numbers and participation) are the most conservative parishes and organizations!

Second, I think Catholicism has long been the denomination of scholarship. Once one begins to read about Islam, it's like a whole new world of study opens up. This appeals to many intellectual Catholics (such as myself).

One thing that is very different is that Islam is not a sacramental religion. Catholicism is intensely sacramental (baptism, the Eucharist, penance, etc.)

Overall, I think the main reason is that Catholicism is primarily a religion in which God is emphasized over reason. Islam is the same way - while Islam encourages the use of religion, ultimately the key ingredient is faith. In many protestant, reform Jewish, etc. traditions, there is almost an apology for faith and an attempt to justify things based on reason alone. This leads to spiritual poverty in my opinion.

[Woodrow]

As a Roman Catholic who is considering Islam, I'd observe that there are several reasons.

First, many Roman Catholics were reared in traditions that go back thousands of years. However, all of this was turned over by the changes in the 1960s. These changes have taken a long time to play out but now there are a lot of old Churches which are closing or being "renovated" into modern art monstrosities. The Latin Mass is gone, folk music has replaced the old hymns, etc. It's really hard to feel a sense of the sacred in many modern churches. I find it very interesting that the parts of Catholicism that are the most vibrant (in terms of numbers and participation) are the most conservative parishes and organizations!

Second, I think Catholicism has long been the denomination of scholarship. Once one begins to read about Islam, it's like a whole new world of study opens up. This appeals to many intellectual Catholics (such as myself).

One thing that is very different is that Islam is not a sacramental religion. Catholicism is intensely sacramental (baptism, the Eucharist, penance, etc.)

Overall, I think the main reason is that Catholicism is primarily a religion in which God is emphasized over reason. Islam is the same way - while Islam encourages the use of religion, ultimately the key ingredient is faith. In many protestant, reform Jewish, etc. traditions, there is almost an apology for faith and an attempt to justify things based on reason alone. This leads to spiritual poverty in my opinion.

You will discover that Islam is a religion of both reason and faith. It is a very logical belief. One can and should find reason to believe the Qur'an is the unchanged word of Allaah(swt) and not the words of Muhammad(PBUH) or any other man. Once that is done there is no need to require proof for the contents, it can be on faith alone. although it is possible to find empiracal proof for virtually everything in the Qur'an if we search.

[Riana17]

salam

As we know, Christians are believers as well, so when they educate themselves about Islam then compare with Christian teachings, they will find out the perfectness of QURAN and ISLAM

When we are definite with the information we read/receive/ we act accordingly
my point as ex-Christian, the only religion that made me a follow it is my religion now (ISLAM) although i think all religion teaches us to be good but only Islam can reach your heart&mind at the same time.

Subhanallah, we may do things at the beginning but when we are certain about one thing, we strive to stand till the end