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Raymond
02-05-2010, 06:31 PM
Hi all, my name is Raymond, and i'm a christian.

I want to confirm this, do muslims believe in Jesus as The son of God ?

If yes, why they still believe in Mohammad since Jesus himself have already told that there will come a false prophet (not plural) after Jesus.

If no, why?

Please be honest.
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جوري
02-05-2010, 06:43 PM
NO we don't believe that Jesus is the son of God. We don't believe in trinities, three headed gods, gods praying to themselves, gods ****ing their creation, gods forsaking themselves, gods choosing ineffectual apostles, or gods abrogating their commandments through false (prophet) or prophets.. makes you really wonder about paul and friends preaching here and there that which wasn't brought by Jesus.

all the best!
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Yusuf Saeed
02-05-2010, 07:00 PM
Hello!

Welcome to the board, Raymond. :)

No, we Muslims don't consider Jesus (peace be upon him) as the son of God but he is an important prophet and messenger in Islam.

Here's a little about the status of Jesus (peace be upon him) in Islam that perhaps gives you an answer to the question you have:

"It is an established fact that all the Prophets and Messengers of God were sent as light bearers to humanity; they all came with the purpose of upholding the truth, maintaining justice and bringing man closer to his Lord.

In accomplishing this task, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), as well as other Prophets of God, had to undergo a series of difficulties, hardships and torment to make people grasp and believe in the message brought to them. As members of the human family, we should show all forms of respect to Allah's Prophets and Messengers.

We should in anyway project any of Allah's Prophets or Messengers in a bad way. Rather, we should follow their guidance and stick to their footsteps in order to achieve steadfastness and uprightness in our lives.

Delving deeper in this issue,Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council of North America, stated in his Khutbah at the Islamic Society of Orange County (California, USA) on Shawwal 15, 1423/December 20, 2002:

Almighty Allah says: (Say ye: we believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam).) (Al-Baqarah 2: 136)

(Behold! the angels said: ‘O Mary! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.) (Aal `Imran 3: 45)

We believe in all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah. We respect and honor all of them without any discrimination. We believe that all Prophets preached the message of tawhid (monotheism) and all of them invited human beings to worship Allah alone and live a righteous life. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was not the only Prophet of God, but he was the last and final Prophet of God. Prophet Muhammad is not the founder of Islam; all Prophets were Muslims and they followed the way of Islam.

It may be a surprise to many people in America that we Muslims also believe in Jesus. Although we do not celebrate Christmas, but we do respect and honor the person in whose name this festival is observed. We believe that Jesus was one of the great Prophets of God. In the Qur’an he is called ‘Isa. He is also known as al-Masih (the Christ) and Ibn Maryam (Son of Mary). He has many other beautiful names and titles in the Qur’an.

He is a highly respected religious figure. Every Muslim honors him, respects him and loves him. His mother is also highly respected, loved and honored. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslim men all over the world who feel proud and blessed to have the name `Isa; as there are thousands of Muslim women who feel honored and blessed to be called Maryam.

Unlike the Gospels or the New Testament in general, the subject matter of the Qur’an is not Jesus. The Qur’an speaks in detail about God, God’s will for human beings and about many of God’s Prophets and Messengers. Yet, all the basic facts about Jesus’ life are mentioned in the Qur’an. The Qur’an says in several places that Mary was a pious virgin who devoted her life in prayer and divine service. The angel of God one day visited her and gave her the good news of the birth of a blessed child.

This was a miraculous birth as Mary was not a married woman. The virgin birth is clearly mentioned in the Qur’an and no recognized Muslim authority has ever disputed this claim. However, Muslim and Christian interpretations differ on the meaning of virgin birth. For Christians it was the sign of incarnation, the coming to earth of the Son of God. For Muslims it was a special miracle. For every Prophet a particular miracle was given according to the needs and challenges of his time.

Since Jesus’ contemporaries used to deny the existence of spirit, they were shown the presence and the power of divine spirit by this unique birth. Jesus also performed many other miracles, such as raising of the dead to life, healing the blind and lepers, speaking about the hidden things. All these miracles show that material is not the only thing; there is something beyond the material that must be recognized. Jesus reminds us about the power of Divine Spirit. The Qur’an emphasizes that Jesus performed all his miracles only by the permission of God.

The message of Jesus was basically the same as the message of other prophets of God. He was sent to invite people to the worship of One God, to do the righteous deed and be kind and loving to others. He reminded his people to pay attention not only to the letter of the laws but also to the spirit of the laws.

The Qur’an says that Jesus was mistreated, denied and rejected by his people just as other prophets were also mistreated. Some of his contemporaries opposed him and tried to crucify him. It is also reported in the Christian Bible that Jesus prayed to God to save him from his enemies and remove the “cup of death” from him.

(“If thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” Mark 14:36 and Luke 22:42)

God accepted Jesus’ prayer and saved him from crucifixion or death on the cross. He was lifted up to heaven (An-Nisaa’: 157-158). Jesus is yet to fulfill his Messianic role. Muslims believe that Jesus will come back to earth before the end of time and will restore peace and order, struggle against the Anti-Christ (Dajjal) or demonic forces, and bring victory for truth and righteousness. The true followers of Jesus will prevail over those who deny him, misrepresent him and reject him.

Muslims and Christians differ in their Theology (views about God) and their Christology (views about Christ), but they both believe in the same God and in the same Jesus. There should be better understanding and better relations among them."


(Gossamer Skye, please try to show a bit of kindness in your replies to newcomers, at least towards those who haven't showed any hostility towards Islam nor Muslims.)
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Predator
02-05-2010, 07:19 PM
Welcome to the Board ,Raymond :)

We believe Jesus is not the Son of God but a Messiah and one of the mightiest messengerS of God . As per chapter 112 of the Quran, God does not beget a Son and its a blasphemy to attribute such a quality to God

The False Prophet which Jesus speaks of is Paul who is the corrupter of Christianity . For more information ,please see below video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFfs1...eature=related

and this thread

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...t-trusted.html

And Jesus said

John 16:12-15

12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

We muslims believe that Muhammad is the Spirit of Truth and we are prepared to reason with you


Jesus mentions Prophet Muhammad by name in Chapter 220 Gospel of Barnabas

Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell. And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad;, the Messenger ;of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'


Muhammad mentioned in Song of Solomon

Muhammad (PBUH) in the Bible. In the Song of Solomon, chapter 5 verse 16, we read in Hebrew: "Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem." It means "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) speaks Prophet Jesus and his second coming

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus)."
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 652:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle Muhammad(PBUH) said "Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one


Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle Muhammad (PBUH) said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish, you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): -- 'And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e. Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against them." (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol. 7)


And Muhammad(PBUH) in his ascension meets Jesus(PBUH)

Angel Gabriel then ascended with the Prophet to the second heaven, asked for opening the gate and there he saw and saluted John, son of Zachariya (Yahya bin Zakariya) and Jesus, son of Mary. They returned the salutation, welcomed him and expressed their faith in his Prophethood.


And most importantly ,we Muslims are not the enemies of Jesus(PBUH) , we love Jesus Christ
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Danah
02-05-2010, 07:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymond
Hi all, my name is Raymond, and i'm a christian.
Hi, Hope you have a beneficial stay here.

I want to confirm this, do muslims believe in Jesus as The son of God ?
No, but he is one of the noble prophets of God.

If no, why?
Because He is a prophet of Allah sent to convey the message of worshiping one God (Allah) like all the other messengers of Allah that mentioned in the Quran.
Jesus peace be upon him himself did not even claim that he is God or ask people to worship him.
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Woodrow
02-05-2010, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymond
Hi all, my name is Raymond, and i'm a christian.

I want to confirm this, do muslims believe in Jesus as The son of God ?

If yes, why they still believe in Mohammad since Jesus himself have already told that there will come a false prophet (not plural) after Jesus.

If no, why?

Please be honest.
Isa(as) is one of the most loved Prophets(PBUT). We do believe in his virgin birth and the many miracles he performed all that are mentioned in the Bible and some more, not mentioned in the bible. We do believe he will return to Earth and destroy the Dajiil (anti-Christ) But we do not believe he is the son of God(swt) and that believing so is a grave sin and the one unpardonable sin. to believe Jesus(as) is God(swt) or the son of God(swt) is the sin of shirk, the worshiping of anyone besides God(swt) and if a person dies with that belief it is the one unpardonable sin.
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Somaiyah
02-05-2010, 10:25 PM
Assalamo alaykom,

I like to think of it in a simple way, and I believed very strongly Jesus (ra) was the son of God before when I was active Christian for 18 years. God is almighty, God knows everything, God can never make mistakes - this too is mentioned in the Bible. God doesn't need any reason to create Adam and Eve, put up rules, let the people worship Him alone and live after the rules, send prophets to clear things up - and then suddenly in the middle of it all realize He made a mistake and He needs to send a son instead to take away the rules and let all people who believes in it go to Heaven. He doesn't need to do this, human can live after several rules which we in fact already do within every country we live in, and even all prophets before Jesus (ra) believe in God alone and no trinity. God didn't have any reason to send a son since He can do anything He wants and He doesn't make mistakes, therefore He didn't need to send a son because He never had to change life on Earth - that would mean He had made a mistake from the start which He can't do.
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A-Believer-25
02-07-2010, 05:44 PM
:sl:

Jesus (peace be upon him) was only a Messenger of God. He taught people to worship the One true God. God is One, He has no sons.
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_ALI_
02-15-2010, 02:02 PM
Salam Raymond
Your first question has been answered by everyone. I would just like to add a small thing
If yes, why they still believe in Mohammad since Jesus himself have already told that there will come a false prophet (not plural) after Jesus.
False prophets have always been plural and never singular

M't:24:24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
M't:24:11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Hence the Bible never speaks about prophet Muhammad as a false prophet. Instead, Jesus always spoke about him as the next prophet.
http://www.islam101.com/religions/ch...ity/mBible.htm
Peace
Reply

World Peace
02-20-2010, 02:30 PM
Hello

Welcome to islamic forum, regarding your question:

Muslims believe in Jesus (peace be upon him):
“ Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." (The Holy Quran, 3: 84)

In his miraculous birth and in the miracles which he performed with God’s permission (Among his miracles was to be able to talk as a baby, and speaking in defence of his mother Mary, when she was faced with false accusations).
“Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. He shall speak to the people when in childhood and in maturity. And shall be (of the company) of the righteous. She said: “O my Lord!, how shall have a son when no man has touched me? He said: “even so; Allah creates what He wills: When he has decreed a plan, He but says to it, ‘Be! And it is! And He will teach him the Book and the Wisdom and the Law and the Gospel, And (appoint him) a messenger to the children of Israel, (with this message):‘ I have come to you, with a sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breath into it, and becomes a bird by Allah’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah’s leave; and I declare to you what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely therein is a sign for you if you did believe” (The Holy Quran, 3:48-50)
“Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, A Man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know” Acts 2:22.

God created Jesus (peace be upon him) as a sign
“He said: "So (it will be): your Lord says, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed. (The Holy Quran, 19:21)

However, Muslims believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was not crucified but rather, God raised him up to heaven to himself, saving him from the intended crucifixion. Jesus (peace be upon him) characteristics were put over another man, and that man was crucified instead.
“That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah ; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not” ( The Holy Quran, 4:157)
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise” (The Holy Quran, 4:158)

““The view that God punished his innocent son to free mankind from sin is seen by Muslims to violate the rule set out in Deuteronomy (24:16). “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor shall the children be put to death for the fathers, every man shall be put to death for his own sin”. The same is expressed in the Quran: “no soul shall bear another’s burden” (The Holy Quran, 6:164).”
Jesus (peace be upon him) the messiah, will return before the end of times.
“And (Jesus) shall be a sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.” (The Holy Quran, 43:61)

His return will be one of the major signs which will occur, other signs will include the emergence of the anti-christ or “dajjal” whom Jesus will confront and defeat, and after he will rule for a period of peace and prosperity.

Muslims believe that God has no sons, daughters or associates.
“Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.” (The Holy Quran,112:1-4)”

““Jesus (peace be upon him) called for the worship of the one and only God of the Ten Commandments: “I am the Lord, your God.... you shall have no other gods before me, or in Hosea 13:4: “I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt: you know no god but Me, and besides Me there is no saviour”. In addition, in Matthew 5:17-19 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them”.”
"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers: say not ‘Trinity’; desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (The Holy Quran, 4:171)”

“They say: “(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!” Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin. That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.” (The Holy Quran, 19:88-93)”

"They do blaspheme who say Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them." (The Holy Quran, 5:74)”

“JOB 25:4. How then can man be justified with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? JOB 25:5. Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. JOB 25:6. How much less man that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
JOB 14:4. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one.”
“It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be” and it is (The Holy Quran, 19:35).

“Verily, when He intends a thing, his Command is, “be”, and it is! (The Holy Quran, 36:82).
“The Gospel of John, 5:30"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and myjudgement is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."”

“Jesus (pbuh) repeated many times the first commandment (Law): “Hear O’ Israel, your Lord your God is one God” (Mark12 :29) and “You shall worship your God and none other”.
EXODUS 20: 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
EXODUS 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
ISAIAH 43-10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. ISAIAH 44-11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
JOHN 8-40: But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God.”

“Deut 4:39: “... that the Lord, He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is none else”

“Isaiah 44:6: Thus saith the Lord.... I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God”

““And behold, one came and said unto him, Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” Mathew 19:16-17.”

“Paul nails the law and the commandments to the cross (Colossians 2:14) and claims that salvation can only be obtained through the deathand resurrection of Jesus (pbuh) Christ: Refer to: 2 Timothy: 8: “Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my (Paul’s) gospel”: "If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain."(1 Corinthians 15:14) According to St. Paul, if Jesus(pbuh) did NOT die, and he was NOT resurrected from the dead, thenthere can be NO salvation in Christianity!”
“Vatican Church follows Paul’s teachings
Paul Changed Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday
(1) Paul was not chosen as one of the disciples of Jesus (pbuh). (2) Paul introduced the concept of ‘son of God’. (Refer Acts 9:20) whereas the foundation of belief of Jesus and Moses and all the Prophets is the belief in ONE GOD. Paul contradicts all the fundamental teachings of Jesus (pbuh).
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus (pbuh) Christ, even we have believed in Jesus (pbuh) Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.“1 Cor 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth. 1 Cor 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake Note: The words spoken by Jesus (pbuh) regarding the observation ofthe LAW OF MOSES is destroyed by Paul in its entirety.

Jesus (pbuh) observed the Law as is recorded in many places of the Bible.Paul encourages people to steal others wealth in 1st Cor 10:24 when theCommandants prohibit such acts. John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments”
MATT 15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. MARK 7:7: Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matt 7:21”

“Jesus (pbuh) was asked- “Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?” MATT 22:37:Jesus (pbuh) said: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.””

“Trinitarian Christianity claims to base its doctrines on a combination of Jesus’ and Paul teachings. The problem is, these teachings are anything but complementary. In fact, they contradict on another”. Jesus taught Old Testament Law; Paul negated it. Paul preached mysteries of faith. Jesus spoke of accountability; Paul proposed justification by faith. Jesus described himself as an ethnic prophet; Paul defined him as a universal prophet. Jesus taught prayer to God, Paul set up Jesus as intercessor. Jesus taught divine unity, Pauline theologians constructed the trinity.” “For these reasons many scholars consider Paul the main corrupter of Jesus’ teachings” Laurence B. Brown, Where is the Christ in Christianity?

“Hence the faith in Christ as held by primitive churches and by Paul was something new in comparison with the preaching of Jesus; it was a new type of religion.” Dr. Johannes Weiss (1909) Paul and Jesus, London and New York: Harper and Brothers. P. 130

“We are a universe away for Jesus. If Jesus came “only to fulfil” the Law and the Prophets; if he thought that “ not an iota, not a dot” would “pass from the Law, “ that the cardinal commandment was “Hear, O Israel, the Lord Our God, the Lord is one, “ and that “no one was good but God”.... What would he have thought of Paul’s handiwork! Paul’s triumph meant the final obliteration of the historic Jesus; he comes to us embalmed in Christianity like a fly in amber. Joel Carmichael (1962) The Death of Jesus. New York: The Macmillan Company P. 270

“Which religion honours Jesus Christ as a prophet but a man? Which religion adheres to strict monotheism, Gods laws, and the concept of direct accountability to God? Which religion denies intermediaries between man and God?” Laurence B. Brown, Where is the Christ in Christianity?

“And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad (the praised one)." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" (The Holy Quran, 61:6)”


PROPHET MUHAMMED (PBUH) Prophesised in previous scriptures

““The Holy Quran, will abide forever, and will remain intact, without any changes or interpolations. It is a proven fact that the Holy Qur’aan remains as pure as it was revealed 1,400 years ago. The Holy Quran, 15:9: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."”

““The first revelation of the Holy Quran is in 96:1. It was revealed through the angel Gabriel to Muhammed (pbuh) was the word “Iqra” in Arabic, which means: “Read” or “Proclaim”. As he was unlearned (could not read nor write) he replied: “I cannot read.” This first revelation was prophesied in Isaiah 29:12:“And the book isdelivered to him that is not learned, saying, “Read this, I pray thee” and he saith, “I am not learned.” Exactly as stated in Isaiah 29:12! The order of the revelations is not in the order it is seen in the Holy Quran. In other words the first part revealed is not in the first page and the last part revealed is not in the last page. That these revelations came piecemeal bit by bit, here a little and there a little and inserted in certain order in the Holy Quran as ordained by Allah, is also mentioned in Isaiah 28:10-11: “For precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to his people.””

““Deuteronomy 18:18: “... and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” This corresponds with the Holy Quran, 53:2-4: “Your companion (Muhammad) is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only the inspiration that is inspired.””

Muhammad is mentioned by name in the Songs of Solomon 5:16. The Hebrew word used there is Mahammuddim. The end letters IM is a plural of respect, Majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be Mahamudd transtaled as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised version of the bible or "The praised One" - 'the one worthe of praise ie. Muhummed
"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehrace Bayna Jerusalem." (5:16)

"His mouth is most sweet: ye, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughter of Jerusalem."

““Muslims all over the world use one language only, which is Arabic, in calling upon their God in their worship, prayers, during pilgrimage and in their greetings to each other. This unity of language had been prophesied inZephaniah 3:9 :“For then will I turn to the people a pure language that they may allcall upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent.”The above prophecy about the ONENESS OF LANGUAGE is verynoteworthy! Only Islam has this uniqueness about using one language in calling upon Allah, the Rabb of the Alamien. The name ofGod is Allah, which is a pure word, which cannot be corrupted - every person, be it a German, Bosnian, Chinese, Indian, American, Turk or of any nation, who is a Muslim, calls upon Allah only in Arabic.””

““The shift of Prophethood to another nation was foretold in Jeremiah 31:36: “If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.” And also foretold by Jesus (pbuh) in Matt 21:43: “Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” And without doubt that nation is the Arabs, as it is stated in Isaiah - 21-13-“The Burden Upon Arabia”. This corresponds to the following verse of the Holy Quran in which Allah informs the prophet of avery heavy responsibility to discharge!“Soon shall We send down to you a weighty Message”. (The Holy Quran, 73:5)””

““The Holy Ka’bah was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael (pbut) in Makkah, and is mentioned in the Holy Qur’aan, 48:24. Another name for Makkah is Bakka, depending on the dialect of the tribe. The name “Bakka” is also mentioned in the Holy Quran in 3:96: “Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that in Bakka (Makkah), full of blessing and guidance for all people.” Marvelously, this word “Bakka” is preserved in the Bible and it was mentioned by Prophet David in his Psalm 84:6: “Who passing through the valley of Bakka made it a well, the rain also filleth the pools.” The water well mentioned here is the well-known well of “Zamzam,” which is still present close to the Kaaba in Makkah and still flows today with abundant water as it did for thousands of years. Ask any Muslim who goes to Makkah for pilgrimage.””

“The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come, they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the Lord.” “All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of My glory.” The tribes of Kedar in Arabia who weredivided became united. “The house of My glory” referred to hereis the House of Allah in Makkah, and not the Church of Christ orthe Vatican as thought by Christian commentators. Kedar is the second son of Ishmael (Genesis 25:13) from whom ultimately Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) arose. Note: It mentions “HOUSE” in the singular. There is only one house that Muslims are duty-bound to visit at least once in a lifetime, and that is the house that Prophet Abraham built with his first born son Ismail in Makkah, i.e. “Kaaba”. On the other hand the Christians have no such injunction in theBible, that it is compulsory to visit the Vatican or any other Church.There was no Vatican and no churches in existence at the time ofJesus (pbuh). Jesus never prayed in a church as they did not exist in his time. The House of Allah, the Kaaba already existed during thetime of Prophets Musa (Moses), Dawud (David), Esa (Jesus) andMuhammed, as Prophet Abraham and his son, Ishmael (pbut) hadrebuilt it. It is a reality that Saudi Arabia is made up of the villagesof Kedar, and is the only country in the world, which remainsimpregnable to any influence of the Church.“Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not beshut day or night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.” This is very significant: The mosque surrounding the Holy Kaaba in Makkah has remained open day and night 24/7/365 dayssince it was cleansed of idols by Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) more than 1,400 years ago. There is no place of worship in the whole world that remains open 24/7/365 except the Grand Mosque in Makkah.”

“The vision of Isaiah of the two riders in Isaiah 21:7: “And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels”. Who was the rider upon an ass? One will know that is was Jesus (pbuh) (John 12:14) - “And Jesus,when he had found a young ass, sat thereon as it is written.” Who then is the promised rider on a camel? The Church is silent on this, for the reason that it can only be Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).Camels were the chief means of transport during the time of theProphet, and even today camels are associated with Arabia.
“Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice,the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of therock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.” From Mount Arafat near Makkah, the Pilgrims chant every year thefollowing: “Here I am (for Your service) O’ Allah. Here I am. Youhave no partner. Here I am. Verily Yours is the praise, theblessings and sovereignty. There is no God besides You.” Isaiah 42 can never be applied to an Israelite Prophet, as Kedar is thesecond son of Ishmael. (See Genesis 25:13)”

““Isaiah, chap 60:1- 22- It speaks about Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,and gross darkness the people, but the Lord shall arise upon theeand His glory shall be seen upon thee”. Compare with the Holy Quran 74:1-3: “O! Thou wrapped up in garments! Arise and warn! And your Lord magnify! The advent of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was at a time ofspiritual darkness when the world forgot the Oneness of God astaught by Prophets Abraham, Moses and Jesus (pbut) and all theprevious prophets.””

Genesis 49:1: “And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, ‘Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.” This corresponds with the Holy Quran 2:133: “Were you witnesses when death came to Jacob? When he said to his sons, “What will you worship after me?” They said, “We shall worship thy God (Allah), the God of thy fathers, Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac; One God, and to Him we have surrendered (in Islam).”

References

Quotes from
http://www.ipci.co.za/Books/commonquestions_3rded02.pdf


_______________________________

Useful websites

Search For Islam
http://searchforislam.com

Discover Islam
http://www.beconvinced.com/archive/en/main.php

Islam Religion
http://www.islamreligion.com

Islamic Invitation
http://islamic-invitation.com/TVs.php?my_TVs=12

Prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him)
http://www.rasoulallah.net/
http://www.islamway.com/mohammad/
http://www.mohammad-pbuh.com/

Quran Explorer
http://www.quranexplorer.com/Quran/Default.aspx

Recieve a Copy of the Holy Quran
A copy can be sent by the IPCI. Please email: ipcisa@yebo.co.za

Quran Tafseer (Clarification/Explanation)
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=101&ltem id=35#1

Learn Arabic - Read and Study the Quran in its Original Language
http://www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_Reading_Course/Arabic_%20Reading_Course.hm
or/
http://searchtruth.com/arabic/lessons/unit1_writing.php

Haramain Recordings
http://www.haramainrecordings.com/

Recitations of the Quran in MP3
http://mp3quran.net/eng/

Islamic Forum
http://www.turntoislam.com/

The Quran and Modern Science
http://www.islamguiden.com/arkiv/quran_science.pdf

Islamic Library
http://www.islamebook.com/

The Supreme Council of Islamic Affairs
http://www.elazhar.com/

Islamic Propagation Centre International
http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/frameset.asp

Islamic Vision
https://www.islamicvision.co.uk/index.php

Islamic Library - Electronic Booklets
http://www.islambasics.com/index.php

Islamhouse
http://www.islamhouse.com

Fisabilillah Publications
http://www.fisabilillah.org

Discover the truth about Islam
www.theradiantlight.blogspot.com
Reply

Raymond
03-05-2010, 06:44 PM
Wise answers from you all. But i have some logic problem with this religion.

1. If the bible have been changed by the Christians, why then Judaism's scriptures (The Torah) are extremely similar (only different translation but same source) with the bible?

I mean if Christians changed the bible, doesn't that makes The Torah extremely different with the "Modified" bible ?

Why is the text still the same (only slighty different translation)?

And if it were changed, did Mohammad mention which verses are changed and what is the original verses?
Reply

Raymond
03-05-2010, 06:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
The False Prophet which Jesus speaks of is Paul who is the corrupter of Christianity . For more information ,please see below video
Everything that Paul preached didn't contradicts with the words of the Christ. And the disciples them self approve Paul as one of their own (2 Peter 3:15). So you are incorrect.

format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
And Jesus said

John 16:12-15

12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

We muslims believe that Muhammad is the Spirit of Truth and we are prepared to reason with you
Having read the bible, it is extremely clear that Paul is the Spirit of Truth. Nothing in the bible even mention about Mohammad and his "coming as the last prophet".

format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Jesus is mentioned in the Gospel of Barnabbas
That gospel is a heretic gospel and untrue. The true ones are the one written in the Bible (Matthew - Revelations) other than that are false teachings. (Gal 1:6-10)


format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
Muhammad mentioned in Song of Solomon

Muhammad (PBUH) in the Bible. In the Song of Solomon, chapter 5 verse 16, we read in Hebrew: "Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem." It means "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."
That isn't even a prophecy, and it's only a coincidence. Is this a joke or serious?


format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce

And most importantly ,we Muslims are not the enemies of Jesus(PBUH) , we love Jesus Christ
I cannot comment Koran verses, since i never read the Koran. But if you love us, then why do you burn churches and kill christians in the name of Allah ?

We all have seen it on the news, TV, internet, newspapers.

I mean, if you love The Christ, then why do you hate us who also love the Christ?
Reply

-Fallen Angel-
03-05-2010, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymond
But if you love us, then why do you burn churches and kill christians in the name of Allah ?

We all have seen it on the news, TV, internet, newspapers.

I mean, if you love The Christ, then why do you hate us who also love the Christ?
Only the uneducated and ignorant burn and kill. I'm sure that (at least) everyone here are educated and smart and not misguided about Islam, thus we cannot control the actions of fellow man, just like you can't stop the westerners killing Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc but you could also argue that they are ignorant and stupid, so you should understand what i mean.
Reply

siam
03-06-2010, 02:22 AM
My apologies in advance for any offense I may cause. My understanding of both Christianity and Judaism is limited---so please consider this as my opinion.......

Changes in Christain understanding from the Torah/Judaism. (see "Judaism 101" on the net for further info)

Judaism=G-D is One, Unique, Indivisible, Genderless.
Christianity=God is a (divisible)"Trinity" and is "Male"/Father. (and Male/Son)

Judaism=Mankind created inherently good
Christianity=Mankind is a "sinner"

Judasin=Story of (Prophet) Adam(pbuh) is not interpreted as that of "Original Sin"
Christianity=The story is interpreted as "Original Sin"

Judaism= Sin is not inherited---there are verses in the Torah that speak of sin being passed on for 7 generations, however, a Jewish person explained that this is understood as the "consequences of the act of sin"---and not the sin itself that is passed on.
Christianity---Sin is inherited. (Original sin inherited by all of mankind--therefore sacrifice of Jesus Christ (pbuh) was neccessary---or some such idea.....)
Reply

north_malaysian
03-06-2010, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymond

I cannot comment Koran verses, since i never read the Koran. But if you love us, then why do you burn churches and kill christians in the name of Allah ?
none of us and like 99.99% of Muslims worldwide ever kill a Christian... we have other more important things to do like working, learning, eating, picnics and logging into this forum...

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymond
We all have seen it on the news, TV, internet, newspapers.
Ever seen on the news, TV, internet, newspaper that Muslims being killed by non-Muslims and mosques being demolished by non-Muslims too?

format_quote Originally Posted by Raymond
mean, if you love The Christ, then why do you hate us who also love the Christ?
We hate oppressors regardless of they religious groups (including the people who called themselves as "Muslims" too)

If we hate the Christians ... there would be no Christian forummers here...
Reply

Predator
03-06-2010, 06:34 PM
Having read the bible, it is extremely clear that Paul is the Spirit of Truth. Nothing in the bible even mention about Mohammad and his "coming as the last prophet
".


"I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

Deuteronomy 18:18


There are many verses in the Old Testament that predict the coming of Jesus (pbuh). This one, however, is not one of them. This can be clearly seen from the following four points:


a) Like unto moses

Muslims believe in all of the previous prophets. They make no distinction between them, nor do they place one above the others in piety. However, they are all human, and as humans they differ from one another in their characteristics. Let us compare these characteristics:

1) Both Christians and Muslims agree that both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) had fathers and mothers. They both also believe that Jesus (pbuh) had only a mother and no father. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

2) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) married and begat children. Jesus (pbuh) never married nor had any offspring. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

3) Moses (pbuh) was accepted by the Jews and to this day, as a nation, they accept him as their prophet. Muhammad (pbuh) was accepted by his people, and as a nation, over one billion Muslims around the world accept him as the prophet of Allah. Jesus (pbuh), however, was rejected by his people (the Jews) as stated in the Christian's own Bible: "He (Jesus) came unto his own, but his own received him not" (John 1:11) Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

4) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) were kings on Earth in the sense that they had the ultimate power of government, the power to inflict capital punishment. When the Jews brought before Moses (pbuh) the Israelite who had been caught collecting firewood on the Sabbath, Moses had him stoned to death (Numbers 15:36). Muhammad (pbuh) had similar authority. When a woman came before him confessing (with no witnesses) to having committed adultery, he gave her a chance to consider the severity of her claim and the punishment she would receive. When she insisted, he ordered her stoned to death and ordered his companions to respect her for her sincere repentance. Jesus (pbuh), however, explicitly refuted the claim that he had a kingdom on earth. When he was dragged before the Roman Governor Pontious Pilate with a charge of sedition he said: (John 18:36) "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Jesus (pbuh) would not resort to lying to save his skin. Thus, he had no earthly kingdom. Further, in John 8:1-7 we read the story of the woman who was taken in adultery by the Jews and brought before Jesus (pbuh). They were hoping to trap him by either having him contradict the laws of Moses (pbuh) by not stoning her, or by placing him in a bad position with the Roman empire by taking the law into his own hands and ordering her stoned. Jesus cleverly extracted himself from this predicament by commanding them: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." So the woman was set free. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

5) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) came with a new and comprehensive set of laws for their people. The law brought by prophet Moses was named the Judaic Law, and the law brought by prophet Muhammad was named the Shari'ah. Jesus (pbuh) however, as witnessed by Matthew, claimed to have not introduced any new laws, but to have come to renew the law of Moses (pbuh) and to have neither added nor subtracted from it. In Matthew 5:17-18 we read: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

6) Moses lead his people in a secret mass exodus from their hometown to Median in an attempt to flee the persecution of their enemies. Muhammad (pbut) too emigrated with his followers from their home town to Madinah in secret in order to flee the torture of their enemies. Jesus, however, never led his followers in a any sort of mass exodus from their hometowns . Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

7) Moses was victorious over his enemies both morally as well as physically. Pharaoh was defeated by Moses and all of his army were drowned in the sea. Muhammad (pbuh) too met his enemies in battle and defeated them all. This too was a moral as well as a physical victory. Jesus (pbuh) on the other hand is claimed in the Bible to have been crucified by his enemies. Thus, his victory was only a moral one. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

8) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh), is claimed by the Christians to have died violently on the cross. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

9) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) lie buried in the ground. Jesus (pbuh), however, is claimed by the Christians to abide in heaven. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

10) Most Christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) is God. No Christian or Muslim, however, claims that Moses or Muhammad (pbut) was God. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

11) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbuh) began their prophetic missions at the age of forty. The Bible tells us that Jesus (pbuh) began at thirty. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

12) Christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) was resurrected after his death. Neither Muslims nor Christians claim that Moses or Muhammad was resurrected. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.









That gospel is a heretic gospel and untrue. The true ones are the one written in the Bible (Matthew - Revelations) other than that are false teachings. (Gal 1:6-10)


We are not alone in this discovery that Matthew did not write the "Gospel according to St. Matthew" and that it was written by some anonymous hand. J. B. Phillips concurs with us in our findings. He is the paid servant of the Anglican Church, a prebendary of the Chichester Cathedral, England. He would have no reason to lie or betray to the detriment of the official view of his Church! Refer to his introduction to the "Gospel of St. Matthew" (reproduced here below). Phillips has this to say about its authorship.

"EARLY TRADITION ASCRIBED THIS GOSPEL TO THE APOSTLE MATTHEW, BUT SCHOLARS NOWADAYS ALMOST ALL REJECT THIS VIEW." In other words, St. Matthew did not write the Gospel which bears his name. This is the finding of Christian scholars of the highest eminence — not of Hindus, Muslims and Jews who may be accused of bias. Let our Anglican friend continue: "THE AUTHOR, WHOM WE STILL CAN CONVENIENTLY CALL MATTHEW" "Conveniently" because otherwise everytime we made a reference to "Matthew" we would have to say — "THE FIRST BOOK OF THE NEW TESTAMENT" Chapter so and so, verse so and so. And again and again "The first book . . ." etc. Therefore, according to J. B. Phillips it is convenient that we give the book some name. So why not "Matthew?" Suppose its as good a name as any other! Phillips continues: "THE AUTHOR HAS PLAINLY DRAWN ON THE MYSTERIOUS 'Q' WHICH MAY HAVE BEEN A COLLECTION OF ORAL TRADITIONS." What is this "mysterious 'Q'?" "Q" is short for the German word "quella" which means "sources." There is supposed to be another document — a common source — to which our present Matthew, Mark and Luke had access. All these three authors, whoever they were, had a common eye on the material at hand. They were writing as if looking through "one" eye. And because they saw eye to eye, the first three "Gospels" came to be known as the Synoptic Gospels.



WHOLESALE CRIBBING

But what about that "inspiration" business? The Anglican prebendary has hit the nail on the head. He is, more than anyone else, entitled to do so. A paid servant of the Church, an orthodox evangelical Christian, a Bible scholar of repute, having direct access to the "original" Greek manuscripts, let HIM spell it out for us. (Notice how gently he lets the cat out of the bag): "HE (Matthew) HAS USED MARK'S GOSPEL FREELY" which in the language of the school-teacher — "has been copying WHOLESALE from Mark!" Yet the Christians call this wholesale plagiarism the Word of God?

Does it not make you wonder that an eye-witness and an ear-witness to the ministry of Jesus, which the disciple Matthew was supposed to be, instead of writing his own first hand impressions of the ministry of "his Lord" would go and steal from the writings of a youth (Mark), who was a ten year old lad when Jesus upbraided his nation? Why would an eye-witness and ear-witness copy from a fellow who himself was writing from hearsay? The disciple Matthew would not do any such silly thing. For an anonymous document has been imposed on the fair name of Matthew.

PLAGIARISM OR LITERARY KIDNAPPING

Plagiarism means literary theft. Someone copies ad verbatim (word for word) from another's writing and palms it off as his own, is known as plagiarism. This is a common trait amongst the 40 or so anonymous authors of the books of the Bible. The Christians boast about a supposedly common cord amongst the writers of the 66 Protestant booklets and the writers of the 73 Roman Catholic booklets called the "Holy Bible." Some common cord there is, for Matthew and Luke, or whoever they were, had plagiarised 85% word for word from Mark! God Almighty did not dictate the same wordings to the synoptists (one-eyed). The Christians themselves admit this, because they do not believe in a verbal inspiration, as the Muslims do about the Holy Qur'an. 1

This 85% plagiarism of Matthew and Luke pales into insignificance compared to the literary kidnapping of the authors of the Old Testament where a hundred percent stealing occurs in the so-called Book of God. Christian scholars of the calibre of Bishop Kenneth Cragg euphemistically calls this stealing, "reproduction"2 and take pride in it.
Reply

_ALI_
03-07-2010, 10:54 AM
Salam Raymond
1. If the bible have been changed by the Christians, why then Judaism's scriptures (The Torah) are extremely similar (only different translation but same source) with the bible?
On the contrary, Judaism scriptures are different from Christian scriptures. There are differences between Jews and Christians and there are even differences between Jesus' teachings and Saint Paul's teachings. According to the Muslim belief, all these previous scriptures are unauthentic as proved even by Christian historians. We don't even know the authors of the Bible and that is why it has been revised many times.
I mean if Christians changed the bible, doesn't that makes The Torah extremely different with the "Modified" bible ?
Torah is a part of Bible as Old testament. And even if a few things match between Old Testament and New Testament, that does not mean that both are completely authentic. Instead to prove their authenticity, you need to use a third source i.e Science. And many historians agree that those books are not authentic.
And if it were changed, did Mohammad mention which verses are changed and what is the original verses?
No he did not. The purpose of prophet Muhammad was not to come and rewrite the previous scriptures. Instead he was to spread the message of a new scripture. Hence we Muslims follow the new scripture i.e Quran and disregard all others. Thus we don't accept Christian beliefs such as prophets committing crimes like adultery, incest etc.
I cannot comment Koran verses, since i never read the Koran. But if you love us, then why do you burn churches and kill christians in the name of Allah ?
I also thought that Christians love all human beings. Well if you love us, why do you kill so many of us in Iraq, Afghanistan etc? Why do you bomb our mosques and houses? The several hundred thousands of Muslims killed in Afghanistan and Iraq outnumber the few thousands killed Christians. In fact, one Christian, hitler, has killed more people than those killed by Muslims combined. Another man, Stalin (who attended a Christian school) has killed more people than those killed by Muslims. But we cannot judge Christianity based on their acts. Similarly we cannot judge Islam based on the acts of a few extremist Muslims (who have killed more Muslims than Christians and bombed mosques). Their are extremes in every religion.
I mean, if you love The Christ, then why do you hate us who also love the Christ?
As I said above, based on your logic, Christians hate muslims a multiple times more. So why do you hate us who love and respect Jesus so much?
Peace
Reply

ccc
03-12-2010, 04:14 PM
a short explanation regarding the trinity given by a man contemporary to Muslim conquest of Middle East and a Chief Administrator to Muslim caliph of Damascus:
"So then this one and only God is not Wordless(3). And possessing the Word, He will have it not as without a subsistence, nor as having had a beginning, nor as destined to cease to be. For there never was a time when God was not Word: but He ever possesses His own Word, begotten of Himself, not, as our word is, without a subsistence and dissolving into air, but having a subsistence in Him and life and perfection, not proceeding out of Himself but ever existing within Himself(4). For where could it be, if it were to go outside Him? For inasmuch as our nature is perishable and easily dissolved, our word is also without subsistence. But since God is everlasting and perfect, He will have His Word subsistent in Him, and everlasting trod living, and possessed of all the attributes of the Begetter. For just as our word, proceeding as it floes out of the mind, is neither wholly identical with the mind nor utterly diverse from it (for so far as it proceeds out of the mind it is different from it, while so far as it reveals the mind, it is no longer absolutely diverse from the mind, but being one in nature with the mind, it is yet to the subject diverse from it), so in the same manner also the Word of Gods in its independent subsistence is differentiated(6) froth Him from Whom it derives its subsistence(7): but inasmuch as it displays in itself the same attributes as are seen in God, it is of the same nature as God. For just as absolute perfection is contemplated in the Father, so also is it contemplated in the Word that is begotten of Him."
Reply

Harrarian
03-12-2010, 05:56 PM
http://www.bibleislam.com/son_of_who.php

By - Yusuf Estes

Does the belief in Jesus (peace be upon him) as a ‘son of God’ really make sense?

What exactly does 'son of God' mean?

Can true salvation from God, be the punishment of someone else who is innocent from any of these crimes, to be punished as though he were guilty?

Does God need someone to suffer severe punishment, even though they are trying, day after day.

Did Jesus (peace be upon him) tell the people to take him as a god, or to worship him?

Let us find the answer to these and other important questions about the nature of Jesus of Christianity and Islam.

"Look to the Books"

To begin, let us do a sample comparison of the teachings of the Holy Books of Almighty God.

QURAN OF ISLAM


"Say: Oh my servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins, for he is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

[Noble Quran 39:53]



"If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah’s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

[Noble Quran 4:110]



"O you people! Adore your Guardian lord, who created you and those who came before you that you may become righteous."

[Noble Quran 2:21]



"You will not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written faith in their hearts and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which rivers flow, to well therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity."

[Noble Quran 58:22]


New Testament of BIBLE


"Why do you call me good? answered Jesus, No-one is good but God alone!"

[Mark 10:18]



"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but rather to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until Heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen; will by any means disappear from the Law until all things are accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever keeps the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

[Matthew 5:17-19]



"Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the Will of the Father who is in Heaven. Many will say to me on the day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

[Matthew 7:21-23]


Some leaders claimed, “This probably refers to the Mormons or somebody else. Don’t worry about it.”


"Gabriel says Jesus will be “called the son of God” and he would be “given the Throne of David” to “rule the House of Jacob forever.”"

[Luke 1:35]



"Enos was the son of Seth, and Seth was the son of Adam, and Adam was the son of God."

[Luke 3:38]


Note: Adam, not Jesus, is listed in this genealogy of Jesus as the son of God, not Jesus.

Later on, the priests are asking Jesus (peace be upon him) if he claims to be the son of God. He tells them in fact, it is they who are making this claim.


"You say that I am."


Gospel of John contains the greatest number of references to"son of God"

Jesus, speaking in the third person talked about the "Son of God" in [John 3:17 - John 5:24 - John 11:4 - John 11:27]

Martha, one of the followers, calls Jesus, peace be upon him, “The Messiah, the Son of God”


"The Messiah, the Son of God."

[John 20:31]


But no verse makes the exact statement "Jesus is the Son of God and as such he is divine or God."

QURAN


"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs."

[Noble Quran 4:171]


Notice in the Bible, the frequent link between the position of Jesus, peace be upon him, as the Messiah and the ‘son-ship.’

The term ‘son of god’ can not, in itself, be considered enough to declare anything unique about Jesus, peace be upon him, as this term is used for many people throughout the Old and the New Testament.

See above:
[Luke 3:38]


Also, in
[Isaiah 63:8]
refers to the entire house of Israel as being, ‘Sons of God’.

Paul tells us about those who are led by the spirit:


"because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."

[Romans 8:14]


The word "Messiah" is one that more particularly seems to represent the station of the person predicted to appear and lead the people to the victory over this world.

Oxford Companion of the Bible states Jews prior to Jesus (peace be upon him) hoped for a prophesied ruler, reigning with everlasting justice, peace and security for the "Sons of Israel."

BIBLE


"A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The spirit of the Lord will be on him - the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of Knowledge and of the fear of the Lord - and he will delight in the fear of the Lord."

[Isaiah 11:1-2]



"The days are coming, declares the Lord, When I will fulfill the gracious promise I made to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the land. In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The Lord Our Righteousness. For this is what the Lord says: David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, nor will the priests, who are Levites, ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offering and to present sacrifices."

[Jeremiah 33:14-18]



"My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. The will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them, it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever."

[Ezekiel 37:24-28]



"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the rules staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."

[Genesis 49:10]



"I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth. Edom will be conquered; Seir, his enemy, will conquer, but Israel will grow strong. A ruler will come out of Jacob and destroy the survivors of the city."

[Numbers 24:17-19]


God Incarnate? NOT HERE

BIBLE

Nathan the prophet (son of Solomon) said:


"The Lord declares to you that the Lord Himself will establish a house for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father and he will be my son."


(New Testament book of Hebrews stops here)

Samuel continues:


"When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you."
[2 Samuel 7:12-15]



"You are my Son; today I have begotten you."

[Hebrews 1:5]


Does this support the case the doctrine that Jesus, peace be upon him, is the "begotten Son of God?"

Old Testament BIBLE

David is stating what God has proclaimed regarding David’s relationship to God


"I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: he said to me, you are my Son; this day have I begotten you."

[Psalms 2:7]


Note: The New International Version says the verse could be translated either as "become your Father" or as "begotten you" into English or Greek.

New Testament BIBLE


"He will be called the Son of God."

[Luke 1:35]


Note: This does not state he "is" the son, but rather, he will be "called" the son of God.

Or was he the "one anointed to preach Good News to the poor." prophesied by Isaiah, and the Messiah proclaimed by Gabriel, the followers of Jesus, peace be upon him, Jesus, himself and the remained of the New Testament, he evidently would not be God.

New Testament BIBLE


"I tell you the truth", Jesus answered, "before Abraham was, I am!"

[John 8:58]


"I am" is the term used to identify God to Moses, peace be upon him.

New Testament BIBLE


"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that whoever believed in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

[John 3:16]


This does not actually define Jesus, peace be upon him, as God, or as the Messiah or as a Prophet.

Note: This verse was actually modified by Jerome in the 4th century.

ARIUS (Early history of the Church) a popular leader from Alexandria, Egypt.
He argued, Jesus (peace be upon him) was created and not ‘begotten.’
He was charged with heresy and his followers were horribly oppressed by the Church.

After the matter was ‘decided’ and ‘confirmed’ by the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. and in an effort to consolidate both beliefs, Jerome altered the original version of the Gospel of John 3:16 by changing the word ‘monogenes’ (unique) and substituted the word ‘ingenious’ meaning ‘only begotten.’

What other ‘interpretations’ did the early Church Fathers invent to satisfy their claims of the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him?

Good question.

New Testament BIBLE


"But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles that you may learn and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

[John 10:38]



"Don’t you know that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me? The words that I say to you are not my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me who is doing this work."

[John 14:10]


But further reading in the very same chapter:


"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

[John 14:20]


So how does he live in his disciples and how do they live in him? And if so, are they also, sons of God or Gods?

Another good question.


"But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him. Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did."

[1st John 2:5-6]


(This is an epistle [letter] written by another ‘John,’ not John the Gospel er nor John the Baptist)

Note: This indicates, living ‘in God’ means, ‘Obeying God’ commandments and following the Way of Jesus, peace be upon him.

Twice in the New Testament, Jesus (peace be upon him) tells his followers how to pray saying, "When you pray, say this..."
And the words are very clear, God’s Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

BIBLE


"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one; I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

[John 17:22-23]


The word used throughout chapter 10 and 17, for unity or one was the same, ‘heis’ meaning the number one. There is another word ‘hen’ which means a unity of essence. However, ‘hen’ is nowhere to be found in these chapters.

Note: Conclusion is this is a prayer from Jesus, peace be upon him, to God that all of his followers would have the same relationship that he (Jesus) had.

Understanding the word ‘one’ meanings understanding the way in which it is being used. For example a man and a woman become ‘one’ when they marry; someone might say, ‘One hopes for success’ or ‘We are one in agreement.’

Jesus, peace be upon him, is supposed to have said,
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
In the very part of the Bible we find the verse wherein Jesus (peace be upon him) tells his followers, if they accepted a little child, then they also accepted Jesus, peace be upon him. Naturally, he did not mean the child was God or that he was a child.

Christians are taught early in life, by doing good deeds and service for others, they are in fact allowing others to see Jesus in them.

Why do we hold so tight to doctrines, even after realizing the incorrectness and false teachings?

Yet another good question

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus, peace be upon him, is a man, born of a woman without any father, strengthened by a Spirit from God (Gabriel), sent by God to teach the Children of Israel the true meaning of belief and proper actions (following the commandments) that God would accept from them and as such, their ‘road to salvation.’

One more time:

BIBLE


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God at the beginning."
[John 1:1]


Jesus (peace be upon him) was the very "Word of God".

QURAN


"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah anything but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not ‘trinity’: desist."

[Noble Quran 4:171]


It is difficult for us to admit that we have been deceived for so many years by some many people, some of them very near and dear to us. The truth is, ‘Someone has been lying to us’ - on purpose.

It is also difficult to consider the consequences of loosing faith in the doctrine of the Church, out of fear of loosing faith in God altogether.

But there is wonderful hope, Grace, Mercy and Salvation for those who come to the correct belief and obey the commandments.

Wisdom or Word?

Oxford Companion to the Bible

The words “wisdom” and ‘word’ were synonymous (exactly the same words) in Jewish thought at the time of Jesus.

Old Testament BIBLE


"The lord brought me forth at the beginning of his work before his deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side."

[Proverbs 8:22-30]



"By Wisdom the Lord laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place; by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and the clouds let drop the dew."
[Proverbs 3:19]


APOCRYPHA (hidden books of the Bible)

Wisdom I and Wisdom II

Sirach (also called: “Ecclesiasticus”) written by Jesus ben Sira, a devout Jew of Jerusalem, 200 years before Christ.
These texts were a part of the Bible until the time of the Calvinists and the Protestant Reformation (hence the word - protest).

Scrolls found at Wadi Qumran and Masada confirm these were always a part of the ancient version of the Bible, but obviously not something Protestants wanted anything to do with.

Wisdom states:


"Wisdom praises herself, and tells of her glory in the midst of her people. In the assembly of the Most High she opens her mouth, and in the presence of his hosts she tells of her glory: ‘I came forth from the mouth of the Most High and covered the earth like a mist. I dwelt in the highest heavens, and my throne was in a pillar of a cloud. Alone I compassed the vault of heaven and traversed the depths of the abyss. Over waves of the sea, over all the earth, and over every people and nation I have held sway. Among all these I sought a resting place; in whose territory should I abide? Then the Creator of all things gave me a command, and my Creator chose the place for my tent. He said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob, and in Israel, receive your inheritance.’ Before the ages, in the beginning he created me, and for all the ages I shall not cease to be. In the holy tent I ministered before him, and so I was established in Zion. Thus in the beloved city he gave me a resting place, and in Jerusalem was my domain. I took root in an honored people, in the portion of the Lord his heritage."
[Sirach 24:1-12]



"For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing evil gains entrance into her. For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of His goodness. Although she is but one, she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them friends of God, and prophets."

[Wisdom of Solomon 7:25-27]


Did the beginning of the Gospel of John indicate John believed the Spirit was sent by God to Jesus (peace be upon him) that it was the Spirit of Wisdom, Spirit of Prophecy, sent to all the prophets, with the same commandments and wisdom?

Could the Spirit of Wisdom be with God since creation? Or perhaps the Spirit was the ‘Word of God’ that was uttered or breathed by God in the Beginning and then continued along with God in the rest of Creation?

BIBLE APOCRAPHA


"For wisdom, the Fashioner of all things, taught me."

[Wisdom of Solomon 7:22]


Could the Spirit of Wisdom be the Holy Spirit that spoke to Mary about having her baby? And the same Holy Spirit that descending upon him at this baptism?

BIBLE


"Then John gave this testimony: ‘I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit’"
[John 1:32]


All of this confirms without doubt the writers of the Old Testament and the New Testament were definitely on the lookout for a “Messiah” or “chosen leader of the way to salvation in this life and the next life.”

The word in Hebrew for the ‘chosen one’ or ‘anointed one’ or ‘appointed one’ is ‘Messiah.’
The word in Koine Greek for ‘Messiah’ is ‘Christos’ (became ‘Christ’).
The word in Arabic for it is “Massih”

Did Jesus, peace be upon him, ask people to pray to him, or to pray with him, to the God who sent him?

Did Jesus, peace be upon him, claim to be God?

Can the term "son of God" in English really present the meaning intended by the writers of the Bible?

Now let us compare with compassion and wisdom in our hearts. Which of the two concepts make the most sense between Islam and Christianity when it comes to the subject of Jesus, peace be upon him?

Let us compare the two and see what our wisdom and common sense tell us:

According to the teachings of Islam in the Quran and the words of the last prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon him, Jesus, the son of Mary, was predicted, he came to earth as a baby with a mother but no father, he did amazing miracles by the permission of Allah, including even bringing a dead man back to life; he did demonstrate for his followers the very best of behavior and obedience to the commandments of God. And according to the Bible he personally prayed and ask God Almighty to save him from the fate of going to the cross.

The Bible indicates Jesus prayers at Gethsemane went unanswered, even though he stayed up through the night crying and asking God, "Let this cup pass from me, even so, Your will be done."

Yet, according to Quran, Almighty God did answer his prayers. He did not go to the cross, but rather the likeness of him was put on another person who did go to the cross and Almighty God, caused Jesus, peace be upon him, to be saved, protected and he is with God and will return in the Last Days to lead the true believers to victory over the evil ones.

Some have even speculated the one on the cross was the very one (Judas Thomas Iscariot) who sold out Jesus and his followers for thirty pieces of sliver.



Who was Jesus?

Islam honors all the prophets who were sent to mankind. Muslims respect all prophets in general, but Jesus in particular, because he was one of the prophets who foretold the coming of Muhammad. Muslims, too, await the second coming of Jesus. They consider him one of the greatest of Allah's prophets to mankind. A Muslim does not refer to him simply as "Jesus," but normally adds the phrase "peace be upon him" as a sign of respect.

No other religion in the world respects and dignifies Jesus as Islam does. The Quran confirms his virgin birth (a chapter of the Quran is entitled "Mary"), and Mary is considered to have been one of the purest women in all creation. The Quran describes Jesus' birth as follows:


"Behold!' the Angel said, God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations."

[Noble Quran 3:42]



"Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and in the Hereafter, and one of those brought near to God. He shall speak to the people from his cradle and in maturity, and he shall be of the righteous. She said: "My Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?' He said: "Even so; God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing, He says to it, 'Be!' and it is."

[Noble Quran 3:45-47]


Muslims believe that Jesus was born immaculately, and through the same power which had brought Eve to life and Adam into being without a father or a mother.


"Truly, the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, and then said to him, 'Be!' and he was."

[Noble Quran 3:59]


During his prophetic mission, Jesus performed many miracles. The Quran tells us that he said:


"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave. And I heal the blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by God's leave."
[Noble Quran 3:49]


Muhammad and Jesus, as well as the other prophets, were sent to confirm the belief in one God. This is referred to in the Quran where Jesus is reported as saying that he came:


"To attest the law which was before me, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey me."

[Noble Quran 3:50]


Prophet Muhammad emphasized the importance of Jesus by saying: "Whoever believes there is no god but Allah, alone without partner, that Muhammad is His messenger, that Jesus is a servant and messenger of God, His word breathed into Mary and a spirit emanating from Him, and that Paradise and Hell are true, shall be received by God into Heaven.
[Bukhari]




Please also watch Dr Zakir Naik videos on You tube for an answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0KW7FxOG_0
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