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Argamemnon
02-10-2010, 06:40 PM
A devastating war between Israel & Hezbollah is on the horizon

Elias Bejjani

February 08, 2010

*Israel is preparing to invade Lebanon with massive ground troops.


Israel will not spare any kind of weaponry, including phosphorous and cluster

bombs.

Israel is secretly evacuating its northern region residents.

Israel intends to create a new security zone inside Lebanon, south of the Litani

to enhance her long term occupation.


While the war of words is escalating around the clock between Israel on the one side and

Hezbollah and Syria on the other, analysts in the Middle East and Europe strongly believe

that war is inevitable and will break out within a few months.


In this scary context, senior Lebanese sources told the Saudi daily Al-Okaz that Hezbollah

has announced emergency readiness in all areas of the country where it operates. Senior

figures of the organization were asked to exercise greater caution in their movements

amid fears they would be targeted by Israel. Hezbollah´s leaders are bragging that they

are capable of defeating, humiliating and destroying Israel´s war machine.

Meanwhile, the verbal sparring between Jerusalem and Damascus continued over the

weekend, even if in lower tones. The official Syrian newspaper Tishrin said in an editorial

that "the threats from Israel make it clear that it intends to initiate a new war whose

limits are unknown." The editorial added that "death and destruction may occur if Israel

responds to the logic of some of its leaders, in whose veins flows crime. Damascus is

ready for any path that Israel chooses, whether it is peace or

war." The editorial's author is the newspaper's editor-in-chief, who wrote that the "logic of

war and threats is the dominant logic in Israel. Talk of peace is chatter void of substance

that is mere media propaganda. There is no real political decision for peace in the Zionist

entity, despite promises of this, on the basis of restoring rights to their rightful owners."

Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem last week threatened that an Israeli attack against

Syria would be total war. His Israeli counterpart, Avigdor Lieberman, warned that Syrian

President Bashar Assad and his family would not remain in power as a result of the next

war.


In a report written by Hamid Ghoriafi, Middle East analyst and journalist, that was

published today by the Kuwaiti Daily Al-Seyassah, Ghoriafi drew a very dim picture for the

whole situation and predicted a very devastating imminent war that will be according to

the Israelis the last one with on their northern borders. Below are some excerpts from this

report:

Reliable European intelligence reports in London unveiled on Monday an

extensive secretive Israeli ongoing operation to evacuate hundreds of families

living in the Galilee settlements adjacent to the border with Lebanon to safer

locations inside Israel, especially west Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and surrounding

areas. These families are transported by trucks and buses and priority is given

to families with many children, the elderly and the physically disabled. The

evacuees' houses are put under the control of the Northern

Military Command for reasons not yet known."


A German report that was recently distributed to those concerned in the European Union

capitals revealed that there is a serious Israeli military intention to reoccupy the former

border strip inside Lebanon with a distance of 5 to 6 kilometers. This strip was known as

the "security zone" before the Israeli withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000.

Initially it was established in the aftermath of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and

occupation of her capital in 1982. The aim was to create a semi-demilitarized zone along

the area of Lebanese Christian and some Shiite villages that are scattered near the Israeli

border in a bid to safeguard the Jewish settlements from shelling and infiltration.

The same intelligence report quoted Israeli Defense Ministry sources saying that their

military engineers have finished putting designs for building two military airports inside

the Lebanese "new security zone", which will stretch temporally up to the Litani River in

the early stages of the war. This area has been under the control of the UNIFIL troops

since 2006. Israel expects that the UNIFIL troops will withdraw in case the war breaks

out. The first airport will be built on the middle and eastern region boundaries towards

Shabaa Farms, Mount Hermon; and the second in the western sector region towards the

coastal town of Naqoura.

All technical and logistic equipments required for the erection of these two airports are

already in locations situated behind the front lines of the Israeli army that is extensively

present on the northern border. Analysts say that this kind of preparations gives the

impression that Israel is definitely planning for a long-term occupation to the south Litani

area. The Israeli occupation accordingly will not endonce the coming military operations

cease."


The report quoted the Israeli defense sources saying that the war will actually begin in

the northern region of the Litani Rriver and all though the Bekaa Valley and eastern

Lebanese mountainous areas that separate Syria and Lebanon because the presence of

Hezbollah in the south of the Litani is no longer as heavy as it was in 2006. The UNIFIL

troops took control of this region after the 2006 war. The report disclosed that the

backbone of the coming Israeli war will be based on two plans:


The first plan is for extensive jet plane aerial bombardment of Hezbollah's scattered

military weaponry caches and missile bases with phosphorus and cluster bombs,

replicating the kind of devastation the southern suburbs of Beirut (Hezbollah's ministate)

suffered during the 2006 war.


The second plan is to execute for the first time, air-landing operations behind

Hezbollah's lines after weakening and destroying its bases in the south, Bekaa Valley and

Beirut.


These two plans in contrast to the 2006 war aim to practically occupy many Lebanese

areas and locations as was the situation in the 1982 invasion led by Ariel Sharon, who

occupied Beirut and its surrounding mountainous and coastal areas.


British sources claimed that another European intelligence report prepared by the UNIFIL

French contingent in southern Lebanon revealed that the Israeli army command has made

ready another SOS war scenario to deal with Syrian and the Palestinian troops who might

cross from Syria and enter the Bekaa Valley equipped with advanced anti-aircraft missiles

to hunt the Israeli jets.

The scenario speaks about Israeli war inside Syria in a bid to completely destroy these

troops. Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem last week threatened that an Israeli attack

against Syria would lead to total war.


The report said that 60% of the Israeli air force has already been put on full

alert and is well prepared for action on the first day of the coming war in an extensive

attack on the Lebanese. Israel is planning to fulfill all its objectives and finish the war

within a few weeks. The remaining 40% of the Israeli air force will be ready to join in

swiftly and effectively if the Syrian army gets involved.


The same French report added that Israel is determined to make this war the last one on

her northern borders. The Jewish military command will not spare any advanced and

destructive kind of weaponry that is stored in its caches. Hezbollah will not be the only

target within the Shiite regions that are under its control, but also the Lebanese army, all

Lebanese institutions and infrastructure. Israel is well convinced that Hezbollah is in full

control of the Lebanese government and accordingly its army will not spare the country's

infrastructure as was the situation in the 2006 war. Israel is planning to end Hezbollah

the same way it ended the PLO in the 1982-1983 war.


Elias Bejjani
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/140634
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Woodrow
02-10-2010, 07:01 PM
I apologize. I can not post what I would like to say at this moment.

We have given birth to a spoiled brat and if we were good parents we would ground Israel, and make it behave.
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Froggy
02-10-2010, 07:15 PM
I doubt either Israel or Hezbollah want another war. And from what I hear Israel is currently more into Syria and Iran, of course.
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Froggy
02-10-2010, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I apologize. I can not post what I would like to say at this moment.

We have given birth to a spoiled brat and if we were good parents we would ground Israel, and make it behave.
Israelis are spoiled indeed. When your Obama pushed for a settlement freeze his support decreased radically and you could hear Israelis say they don't care what America says and how Israel can do on its own and shouldn't listen to anyone. Of course no one thought of giving up the massive financial and military aid then and everyone seemed to forget that it's usually Israel that tells America what to do or what organization to list as terrorist.
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Supreme
02-10-2010, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
I doubt either Israel or Hezbollah want another war. And from what I hear Israel is currently more into Syria and Iran, of course.
I agree. Not only is and Israeli invasion of Lebanon unlikely, it is undesirable.
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Argamemnon
02-11-2010, 09:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
I doubt either Israel or Hezbollah want another war. And from what I hear Israel is currently more into Syria and Iran, of course.
Hezbollah has never wanted war, they are a resistance movement (moqawama in Arabic). Hezbollah's very creation was a result of Israel's massacres and wars against Lebanon.
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Froggy
02-11-2010, 01:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Hezbollah has never wanted war, they are a resistance movement (moqawama in Arabic). Hezbollah's very creation was a result of Israel's massacres and wars against Lebanon.
The rocketed the north of Israel, they got their war.
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Argamemnon
02-11-2010, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
The rocketed the north of Israel, they got their war.
That's what you have been brainwashed to believe. It's truly unbelievable how the Zionist and western media control world public opinion. Do you know anything about the Lebanese-Israeli conflict? Do you know why Hezbollah was created in the first place? Do you know what Israel has done to Lebanon for decades? Do you know why Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers? Do you know anything? Why are you siding with the oppressors and warmongers?

Preparations for Israel's war in Lebanon last summer were drawn up at least four months before two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hizbullah in July, Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, has admitted.

more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007...hepalestinians
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Froggy
02-11-2010, 03:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
That's what you have been brainwashed to believe. It's truly unbelievable how the Zionist and western media control world public opinion. Do you know anything about the Lebanese-Israeli conflict? Do you know why Hezbollah was created in the first place? Do you know what Israel has done to Lebanon for decades? Do you know why Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers? Do you know anything? Why are you siding with the oppressors and warmongers?

Preparations for Israel's war in Lebanon last summer were drawn up at least four months before two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hizbullah in July, Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, has admitted.

more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007...hepalestinians
This doesn't change the fact it was Hezbollah that kidnapped IDF soldiers and rocketed the south.
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Dagless
02-11-2010, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
I doubt either Israel or Hezbollah want another war. And from what I hear Israel is currently more into Syria and Iran, of course.
As has been mentioned, Hezbollah only protect their own people. They are not there to start wars. Israel starts a conflict and attacks every few years without fail. I think its naive to think they will just stop their bullying. If they see any country is rebuilding itself or getting stronger they'll be sure to put it back in its place.

format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
This doesn't change the fact it was Hezbollah that kidnapped IDF soldiers and rocketed the south.
Every ceasefire to date has been broken by Israel.
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Froggy
02-11-2010, 06:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
As has been mentioned, Hezbollah only protect their own people. They are not there to start wars. Israel starts a conflict and attacks every few years without fail. I think its naive to think they will just stop their bullying. If they see any country is rebuilding itself or getting stronger they'll be sure to put it back in its place.



Every ceasefire to date has been broken by Israel.
I disagree with both points.
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aadil77
02-11-2010, 06:30 PM
It's going to kick off, israel have been provoking them by repeatedly entering their airspace, if it was the other way round there would be a war going on right now.
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Dagless
02-11-2010, 06:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
I disagree with both points.
How can you disagree? Breaking of the ceasefire agreements are all documented fact by independent bodies.
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Froggy
02-11-2010, 07:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
How can you disagree? Breaking of the ceasefire agreements are all documented fact by independent bodies.
Not necessarily.
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Dagless
02-11-2010, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
I disagree with both points.
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
Not necessarily.
Something factual to base these on would be a good start :p
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Froggy
02-11-2010, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
Something factual to base these on would be a good start :p
For starters, who and how broke the ceasefire or peace in 2006 Lebanon war?
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Dagless
02-11-2010, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
For starters, who and how broke the ceasefire or peace in 2006 Lebanon war?
Israeli soldiers were killed/kidnapped in response to 1) the south of Lebanon still being occupied at that point (illegally) and 2) Israel deciding it now didn't need to release the thousands of pow's it took when it occupied (which it had agreed to do btw). I think any pretext for war would have done because Israel had been looking/provoking them for a reason since they got whipped the time before.
You also need to take the Palestinian issue into account when looking at this situation (where in 60 odd years Israel has broken every ceasefire).

Occupation of any kind is not on.
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Froggy
02-12-2010, 12:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
Israeli soldiers were killed/kidnapped in response to 1) the south of Lebanon still being occupied at that point (illegally) and 2) Israel deciding it now didn't need to release the thousands of pow's it took when it occupied (which it had agreed to do btw). I think any pretext for war would have done because Israel had been looking/provoking them for a reason since they got whipped the time before.
You also need to take the Palestinian issue into account when looking at this situation (where in 60 odd years Israel has broken every ceasefire).

Occupation of any kind is not on.
What part of Lebanon are you referring to?
When did it agree to release POWs?
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Ummu Sufyaan
02-12-2010, 12:42 AM
A devastating war between Israel & Hezbollah is on the horizon
whats new :hmm:
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Getoffmyback
02-14-2010, 09:34 AM
Ok i'm watching tv right now. Its sunday 14th or march 11:30 am. Israel airplanes entered the lebanese airspace .
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Getoffmyback
02-14-2010, 09:37 AM
Oh i mean today is 14 of feb.
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VizierX
02-14-2010, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Getoffmyback
Ok i'm watching tv right now. Its sunday 14th or march 11:30 am. Israel airplanes entered the lebanese airspace .
Israeli airplanes always do that. They have no respect for Lebanese sovereignty. They think the entire region is their playground and they can do what they want. And the world just sits by and does nothing. Makes me angry just thinking about it.
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The_Prince
02-14-2010, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
For starters, who and how broke the ceasefire or peace in 2006 Lebanon war?
even if you dont agree with anything, a fact you can never dispute, is that Israel continues to break lebanease airspace, which a violation.

america, or europe, would never stand a hostile country sending war planes over their skies over and over again, that ALONE is a provocation that deserves a rough response, and we all know if America was in such a position, it sure would do so.

imagine Iran sent warplans over America, there would be outrage, calls for war, then imagine Iran did it again, America would shoot them down, and most likely go after Iran.
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Froggy
02-14-2010, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
even if you dont agree with anything, a fact you can never dispute, is that Israel continues to break lebanease airspace, which a violation.

america, or europe, would never stand a hostile country sending war planes over their skies over and over again, that ALONE is a provocation that deserves a rough response, and we all know if America was in such a position, it sure would do so.

imagine Iran sent warplans over America, there would be outrage, calls for war, then imagine Iran did it again, America would shoot them down, and most likely go after Iran.
Lebanon did shoot on Israeli planes.
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VizierX
02-14-2010, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
Lebanon did shoot on Israeli planes.
Maybe those Israeli planes shouldn't have been violating Lebanese airspace? Did not that cross you mind?
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aadil77
02-14-2010, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
Lebanon did shoot on Israeli planes.
IsraelNN.com) Lebanon, which has openly embraced Hizbullah both politically and militarily, fired on four Israeli surveillance planes Sunday, its military stated. No direct hits were reported. The Lebanese army rarely fires on Israel unless the planes come within range of their artillery guns.



Israel has continued flights over southern Lebanon in order to monitor Hizbullah terrorist operations in the area where the United Nations forces were mandated to disarm the terrorist organization after the Second Lebanon War in 2006. At the outset of the ceasefire agreement, U.N. commanders said they could not implement the agreement, and Israel has tried to fill the breach in security although the flights technically are violations of the ceasefire.


Sunday's anti-aircraft firing came amidst an escalation in rhetoric by Israel and the Syrian-Hizbullah-Lebanese axis as well as increased weapons smuggling into Lebanon. “War in Lebanon is discussed everyday on almost every street corner,” CNN reported Sunday.


Prime Minister Saad Hariri told the BBC last week that Israeli military activity is "really dangerous,” noting that surveillance planes have entered Lebanese airspace “every day" during the past two months. Israel has repeatedly accused Lebanon of a “blatant violation” of the ceasefire agreement by allowing Hizbullah to smuggle more missiles into southern as well as northern Lebanon.




Sunday marked the fifth year since former anti-Syrian leader and prime minister Rafik Hariri was assassinated, and Syria has widely been held responsible for the murder. His son Saad Hariri now is at the helm of the Lebanese government but unlike his father, he has established friendly relations with Damascus. He also incorporated Hizbullah into a part of his government and military planning.


In addition to friendly meetings between Hariri and Syrian President Bashar Assad, Khaled Mashaal, Damascus-based commander of Hamas, recently met with Hizbullah's number one leader, Hassan Nasrallah, placing two of the world's top terrorists in the same room. Hariri has described Hizbullah as “the resistance.”
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Supreme
02-14-2010, 11:26 PM
Ah, the Middle East! Conflicts, bombs, religion, more conflict, more religion, nationalism, desert, Abrahamic descendants, beauty, heat, more conflict and violence. Some day I shall retire there!
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Froggy
02-15-2010, 12:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by VizierX
Maybe those Israeli planes shouldn't have been violating Lebanese airspace? Did not that cross you mind?
It did, bit the Prince seemed to think the Lebanese armed froced just stood still.
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The_Prince
02-15-2010, 01:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
It did, bit the Prince seemed to think the Lebanese armed froced just stood still.
they shot at them, but doesnt change the fact that israel commited the violation, hence the point remains, didnt u get it? u were asking about who started what, israel keeps violating their airspace, and if this happened to america, america would go to war, not just shoot at the planes and end it there.
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Froggy
02-15-2010, 01:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
they shot at them, but doesnt change the fact that israel commited the violation, hence the point remains, didnt u get it? u were asking about who started what, israel keeps violating their airspace, and if this happened to america, america would go to war, not just shoot at the planes and end it there.
This is recent news, I remember news of Hezbollah firing rockets to Israel (rockets are worse than planes and Israel didnt start a war) a months or so ago. Both parties seemed to have violated whatever ceasefire there may be. The question is who started.
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The_Prince
02-15-2010, 03:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
This is recent news, I remember news of Hezbollah firing rockets to Israel (rockets are worse than planes and Israel didnt start a war) a months or so ago. Both parties seemed to have violated whatever ceasefire there may be. The question is who started.
israel has been entering lebanease airspace BEFORE hezbollah started firing and who said im talking about recent news? you seem to be quite ignorant of the fact that Israel TIME AND TIME AGAIN BREAKS LEBANEASE AIRSPACE, its such a common occurance that you cant keep track of them. everyone knows about them, just go search it.

furthermore, israel is occupying lebanease land, which the UN even recognizes, hence that in itself is 24-7 violation of lebanon, and an act of war!

face the facts buddies, its israel thats breaking every violation and causing every provocation. occupying other land, sending war planes over another country, not to mention carrying out covert assasinations even AFTER THEY SIGN A CEASEFIRE.
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Froggy
02-15-2010, 12:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
israel has been entering lebanease airspace BEFORE hezbollah started firing and who said im talking about recent news? you seem to be quite ignorant of the fact that Israel TIME AND TIME AGAIN BREAKS LEBANEASE AIRSPACE, its such a common occurance that you cant keep track of them. everyone knows about them, just go search it.

furthermore, israel is occupying lebanease land, which the UN even recognizes, hence that in itself is 24-7 violation of lebanon, and an act of war!

face the facts buddies, its israel thats breaking every violation and causing every provocation. occupying other land, sending war planes over another country, not to mention carrying out covert assasinations even AFTER THEY SIGN A CEASEFIRE.
I think the UN recognises the Israeli position on the matter.
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Dagless
02-15-2010, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
What part of Lebanon are you referring to?
When did it agree to release POWs?
Why am I the one explaining everything? Where is your own research? If you know something please speak up.

Israel occupying southern Lebanon at that time is not disputed. If you are arguing against established fact then you have the responsibility to produce evidence.

format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
I think the UN recognises the Israeli position on the matter.
Where are you getting this from? You do realise Israel itself is probably not the best place for info right? The original invasion was ruled by the UN to have no valid reason under international law. Israel then violated U.N. resolution 1701 when it refused to leave Lebanon in '06.
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Froggy
02-15-2010, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
Why am I the one explaining everything? Where is your own research? If you know something please speak up.

Israel occupying southern Lebanon at that time is not disputed. If you are arguing against established fact then you have the responsibility to produce evidence.



Where are you getting this from? You do realise Israel itself is probably not the best place for info right? The original invasion was ruled by the UN to have no valid reason under international law. Israel then violated U.N. resolution 1701 when it refused to leave Lebanon in '06.
The nly disputed territory between Israel and Lebanon I am aware of are some farms Israel claims are Syrian and the UN accepts Israeli position.
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barney
02-15-2010, 05:49 PM
Well in the last war, Israel used targeted precision attacks and killed 600 odd militia in a close quarter urban fight.

Many people at the time abhored this and asked for a "Proportional Response".

That would equate, if we take proportinal in a literal fashion, that Israel should build a total of 3'480 highly inaccurate missiles and launch them at Lebanese civilian areas in a scattered fashion to respond correctly to the 3'480 missiles scattered by Lebanon into Israel.
I personally hope,that they dont retaliate and just sit there and get bombarded with impunity by the terrorists, but If they do retaliate,I hope it is not proportionate, and they act as restrained as they did the last time.

Considering of course that Israel can deliver 400,000 tons of high explosive every day with its Airforce alone and could smash Beruit to cinders. Choosing such limited targeted attacks that endangered their forces to minimise risk to civilians was indeed a huge act self control.
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Dagless
02-15-2010, 05:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
The nly disputed territory between Israel and Lebanon I am aware of are some farms Israel claims are Syrian and the UN accepts Israeli position.
Are you talking about '06? or the earlier occupation?

format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Well in the last war, Israel used targeted precision attacks and killed 600 odd militia in a close quarter urban fight.

Many people at the time abhored this and asked for a "Proportional Response".

That would equate, if we take proportinal in a literal fashion, that Israel should build a total of 3'480 highly inaccurate missiles and launch them at Lebanese civilian areas in a scattered fashion to respond correctly to the 3'480 missiles scattered by Lebanon into Israel.
I personally hope,that they dont retaliate and just sit there and get bombarded with impunity by the terrorists, but If they do retaliate,I hope it is not proportionate, and they act as restrained as they did the last time.

Considering of course that Israel can deliver 400,000 tons of high explosive every day with its Airforce alone and could smash Beruit to cinders. Choosing such limited targeted attacks that endangered their forces to minimise risk to civilians was indeed a huge act self control.
Really? So these rockets which are fired into Israel, how many Israeli's do they actually kill?
Why are Israel being bombarded in the first place? For fun? or have they done something to deserve it?
Lastly, technology isn't everything. Somehow, even when fighting away from cilvillian villages, vastly outnumbering Hezbollah, having better weapons and more money, they managed to sustain more losses and were driven back.
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Froggy
02-15-2010, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
Are you talking about '06? or the earlier occupation?
The occupation Israel withdrew from in 2000.
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Dagless
02-15-2010, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
The occupation Israel withdrew from in 2000.
Yes, but it wasn't a total withdrawal from Lebanese land. Some of southern Lebanon (like Ghajar) was still occupied. This is why resolution 1701 was drawn up, which Israel then violated in 2006.
If another nation is occupying your land it is certainly provocation at the least, most countries would not be as patient as Lebanon.
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barney
02-15-2010, 06:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
Are you talking about '06? or the earlier occupation?



Really? So these rockets which are fired into Israel, how many Israeli's do they actually kill?
Why are Israel being bombarded in the first place? For fun? or have they done something to deserve it?
Lastly, technology isn't everything. Somehow, even when fighting away from cilvillian villages, vastly outnumbering Hezbollah, having better weapons and more money, they managed to sustain more losses and were driven back.
Incompetence shouldnt be assigned the respect of Intent. If they had Israels capacity, Israel wouldnt exist. Not a man or a woman or a child. Palastine from the river to the sea.

Do Israeli civilians deserve to have high explosives chucked at the daily? The answer will lie on your perspective of wether they are people , or wether they are dirty zionists from the Soldier in the tank, to the baby in the pram.

And yes, Hezbollah was extatic that they were not beaten, and would have ascribed it firstly to Allahs protection and then to poor jewish fighting spirit. "Ha! See them run? They are not true men! We are LIONS!"

The idea that Israel carried out a very limited campaign with great concern for casulties and little regard for their own troops over the Lebanese civilians, then pulled out due to International pressure? This never crosses their minds. Nor that Israel's airforce could have sortied 400 strikes a day day and night and reduced the cities to ash along with everyone in it.:hmm:
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Froggy
02-15-2010, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
Yes, but it wasn't a total withdrawal from Lebanese land. Some of southern Lebanon (like Ghajar) was still occupied. This is why resolution 1701 was drawn up, which Israel then violated in 2006.
If another nation is occupying your land it is certainly provocation at the least, most countries would not be as patient as Lebanon.
Resolution 1701 was signed in 2006.
Ghajar is not occupied Lebanese territory, half of it is Lebanese and half of it is Israeli occupied Syrian territory.
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Dagless
02-15-2010, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Incompetence shouldnt be assigned the respect of Intent. If they had Israels capacity, Israel wouldnt exist. Not a man or a woman or a child. Palastine from the river to the sea.
I agree with the incompetence on the part of Israel, but I disagree with Israel's capacity. There is only 1 reason, and that is America's support (both monetary and military).

format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Do Israeli civilians deserve to have high explosives chucked at the daily? The answer will lie on your perspective of wether they are people , or wether they are dirty zionists from the Soldier in the tank, to the baby in the pram.
Who exactly said this? I can't see anyone in this thread who has. In fact most recognise that some Israeli's are against Israel's policies.
Lets look at the facts now. How many civillians has Israel killed in relation to how many Hezbollah has killed? Now who see's who as dirty? Who has cut off water supplies, kidnapped thousands, shot children on purpose, and tortured for fun? I don't think you can even compare the firing of rockets to Israels human rights record.

format_quote Originally Posted by barney
And yes, Hezbollah was extatic that they were not beaten, and would have ascribed it firstly to Allahs protection and then to poor jewish fighting spirit. "Ha! See them run? They are not true men! We are LIONS!"
I don't see what this has to do with the argument. If it helps you maintain the stereotype in your head then feel free to think about it but its irrelevant to post here.

format_quote Originally Posted by barney
The idea that Israel carried out a very limited campaign with great concern for casulties and little regard for their own troops over the Lebanese civilians, then pulled out due to International pressure? This never crosses their minds. Nor that Israel's airforce could have sortied 400 strikes a day day and night and reduced the cities to ash along with everyone in it.:hmm:
They pulled out because of heavy losses, and its not a limited campaign when you outnumber another army by so much.
Again lets look at the facts; Hezbollah purposefully stayed away from populated areas and fought in the open and yet Israel still managed to kill civillians. So much for regard for civillians right? This is coming from a country which has been shown to bomb residential areas, water supplies, and schools on purpose.
Yes, Israel could have bombed the whole country. They could nuke anything they like. How is that an argument though? It just shows they are like a big bully who steals lunch money and then beats up the victim. There are always bigger bullies though and I doubt America would stand by Israel for long if that happened.
Reply

Dagless
02-15-2010, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
Resolution 1701 was signed in 2006.
Ghajar is not occupied Lebanese territory, half of it is Lebanese and half of it is Israeli occupied Syrian territory.
Yes it was signed in 2006, but Israel still violated it after it was signed (hence I put they violated it in 2006 :s).

Yes, the half which is Lebanese was occupied by Israel hence occupied Lebanese territory.
Reply

Froggy
02-15-2010, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
Yes it was signed in 2006, but Israel still violated it after it was signed (hence I put they violated it in 2006 :s).

Yes, the half which is Lebanese was occupied by Israel hence occupied Lebanese territory.
Ok, if that is correct I stand corrected. However I do not think this actually constitutes breaking the ceasefire. The resolution doesn't give any time reference for Israeli withdrawal, or does it?
Reply

Argamemnon
02-18-2010, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Froggy
This doesn't change the fact it was Hezbollah that kidnapped IDF soldiers and rocketed the south.
They were right in my opinion. Israel holds Lebanese nationals as hostages without trial and nobody says anything. Hezbollah has every right to kidnap their soldiers and citizens, I would do the same. Eye for an eye. Regardless, Israel had already planned to invade Lebanon (before Hezbollah's kidnapping of Israeli soldiers).
Reply

Argamemnon
02-18-2010, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
It's going to kick off, israel have been provoking them by repeatedly entering their airspace, if it was the other way round there would be a war going on right now.
Exactly, imagine the headlines in the Zionist and Judeo-Christian media if Lebanon was consistently violating Israeli airspace.
Reply

The_Prince
02-18-2010, 06:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Incompetence shouldnt be assigned the respect of Intent. If they had Israels capacity, Israel wouldnt exist. Not a man or a woman or a child. Palastine from the river to the sea.

Do Israeli civilians deserve to have high explosives chucked at the daily? The answer will lie on your perspective of wether they are people , or wether they are dirty zionists from the Soldier in the tank, to the baby in the pram.

And yes, Hezbollah was extatic that they were not beaten, and would have ascribed it firstly to Allahs protection and then to poor jewish fighting spirit. "Ha! See them run? They are not true men! We are LIONS!"

The idea that Israel carried out a very limited campaign with great concern for casulties and little regard for their own troops over the Lebanese civilians, then pulled out due to International pressure? This never crosses their minds. Nor that Israel's airforce could have sortied 400 strikes a day day and night and reduced the cities to ash along with everyone in it.:hmm:

this is part of that rubbish propaganda you westeners have been feeding for a while, that if it was the other way round, all Jews would be dead, such claims are unfounded, and shows the inbred racism installed into western people into thinking the other side are just a bunch of barbarians who would kill everyone on the other side.

how about you go study your history first before you talk such stupidity, throughout history Muslims have shown themselves to be quite moral when it comes to war, if Muslims wanted to kill all the jews, or all their enemies, they could have done it when they took jerusalm over, when they took several lands in the middle-east and north africa which had christian populations. furthermore the palestinians, and hezbollah could wipe out every single christian to the last in both palestine and lebanon if they chose to do so.

but your a racist, which is why you make such comments, but offcourse your filled with such racism and an inbred superiority complex that you will even deny it, but put your money where your mouth is, and give us any proof that backs up your claim that if it was the other way round no single Israeli would be spared, give ANY evidence that would support this claim, and if you cant, dont bother responding back, because all your going to prove is that im right, face the facts buddy, you got no proof for such an unfounded claim, your just a bigoted racist.
Reply

sister herb
02-18-2010, 07:29 PM
Here are some facts about Israel´s aggressions against Lebanon during almost 40 years.

UN Resolutions On Lebanon 1969 - 2006:
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/un-resolutions.html


The Sabra and Shatila Massacre (16-18 September 1982)
http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/145.shtml


And also for those whose might not know very much about Lebanon:

Lebanon for Beginners:
http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/445.shtml
Reply

Argamemnon
02-18-2010, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Here are some facts about Israel´s aggressions against Lebanon during almost 40 years.

UN Resolutions On Lebanon 1969 - 2006:
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/un-resolutions.html


The Sabra and Shatila Massacre (16-18 September 1982)
http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/145.shtml


And also for those whose might not know very much about Lebanon:

Lebanon for Beginners:
http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/445.shtml
Thanks sis, those are really awesome sources.
Reply

barney
02-23-2010, 02:52 AM
I'm certainly not a racist! I oppose racism wherever I see it be it anti-semitism or jokes about the Irish.
Actually, one exception. The French. Never liked 'em. As Dougalas Haig said in 1919, "they are the fellows we shall be fighting next".

Put simply, morals are a matter of intent purely. Give Hezbollah the capacity to wipe the Jews from earths face, and they will do it. Give the IDF the same capability, say using nukes or their Air force, and what do they actually do? Limited, specific actions.

Ask yourself why the IDF diddnt just carpet bomb Lebanon and the PA areas into a moonscape and the answer will not be found within any capability to do it, just the moral (and legal aspects).
Lets give you some evidence. 287 strike aircraft carrying 24000 lbs = 6,888,000 pounds of high explosive. Thats many times the explosives that hit Dresden in the main WW2 Raid. Like it or not, if Israel decided to "wipe Lebanon off the map" as its enemies declare their intentions to be, then it would not be capability that prevented them.

A bunch of strutting racists posturing with beat up AKM's and spitting rockets randomly is not stopping them.

So ask yourself again, why?
Reply

Argamemnon
02-23-2010, 02:59 AM
No, Muslims would never "wipe out" an entire nation. You are crazy if you think that barney, totally brainwashed by western/Zionist media into thinking that Muslims are genocidal maniacs.
Reply

Argamemnon
02-23-2010, 02:35 PM
I wonder why this person is allowed to insult Muslims on our site (clearly he is not here to learn). I don't understand the mods.. they will sometimes disallow me to raise "controversial" issues, while allowing haters of Islam to post whatever they want.
Reply

mahi
02-23-2010, 07:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
I wonder why this person is allowed to insult Muslims on our site (clearly he is not here to learn). I don't understand the mods.. they will sometimes disallow me to raise "controversial" issues, while allowing haters of Islam to post whatever they want.
It is an annoyance, but it is good in many ways, issues are best addressed.

Barney, it's not wise to judge the intentions of others. Whilst I may be a hypocrite in saying this, it is true. You cannot know whether the IDF or Hizballah can claim the morale high ground, as neither really can.

While you may say with the nukes Israel has, it has not used, you cannot really claim their wonder based on that, considering the Gaza war against a helpless population, the constant deaths of people in Palestine that goes unheard of to the public eye, the constant building of walls to help settlers, the constant kicking Palestinians out of their homes to make land for Jewish settlers based on belief of a pact made with God.

Now imagine if Hizballah or some other group did what the IDF did in the gaza war, as an example of many. Gaza is basically a cave, the people Israel wants to come out come out, and the ones they want to leave will leave. I know this as a peace envoy went recently, and some men are still trapped in Gaza for being outspoken in Gaza. So you have a prison for 1 million, then you bomb them like crazy. Killing almost 1.5 thousand who are helpless and defenceless. Wounding many others. That's not a war, that's a massacre. So consider Hizballah doing that, you'd probably claim they were the human form of satan.

There are many many reasons why Hizballah have a right to be angry. If I kicked you out of your home and took your house as mine, and imprisoned you, I doubt you'd be too happy.

And if you gave Hizballah nukes, do I think they would use it? Well firstly they'd be dead before they got near them, as shows with the case in Iran. Secondly I would doubt it, as they are muslims. You can fight the fighters, but I am sure that killing civilians is against the religion 100%. The reason they do what they do is because they are oppressed. A reason why Lebannon isn't in the state of Gaza has to be attributed to Hizballah.

And in the fight of who's better, IDF or Hizballah? Both aren't helping anything, but can you really protect the actions of IDF? They are much more heinous than what Hizballah have done.
Reply

Nokiacrazi
02-23-2010, 08:05 PM
Palestine is being illegally occupied by 'Israel'. End of discussion.
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 01:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahi
It is an annoyance, but it is good in many ways, issues are best addressed.

Barney, it's not wise to judge the intentions of others. Whilst I may be a hypocrite in saying this, it is true. You cannot know whether the IDF or Hizballah can claim the morale high ground, as neither really can.

While you may say with the nukes Israel has, it has not used, you cannot really claim their wonder based on that, considering the Gaza war against a helpless population, the constant deaths of people in Palestine that goes unheard of to the public eye, the constant building of walls to help settlers, the constant kicking Palestinians out of their homes to make land for Jewish settlers based on belief of a pact made with God.

Now imagine if Hizballah or some other group did what the IDF did in the gaza war, as an example of many. Gaza is basically a cave, the people Israel wants to come out come out, and the ones they want to leave will leave. I know this as a peace envoy went recently, and some men are still trapped in Gaza for being outspoken in Gaza. So you have a prison for 1 million, then you bomb them like crazy. Killing almost 1.5 thousand who are helpless and defenceless. Wounding many others. That's not a war, that's a massacre. So consider Hizballah doing that, you'd probably claim they were the human form of satan.

There are many many reasons why Hizballah have a right to be angry. If I kicked you out of your home and took your house as mine, and imprisoned you, I doubt you'd be too happy.

And if you gave Hizballah nukes, do I think they would use it? Well firstly they'd be dead before they got near them, as shows with the case in Iran. Secondly I would doubt it, as they are muslims. You can fight the fighters, but I am sure that killing civilians is against the religion 100%. The reason they do what they do is because they are oppressed. A reason why Lebannon isn't in the state of Gaza has to be attributed to Hizballah.

And in the fight of who's better, IDF or Hizballah? Both aren't helping anything, but can you really protect the actions of IDF? They are much more heinous than what Hizballah have done.
Thanks for the support of the right to express veiws.

I'll outline my position on Israel.

A couple of thousand years ago a nation lived in a land that they thought their prophet had given them after slaughtering its occupants. He was called Moses. He thought , according to them, that their god yaweh had given them this land in perpituatry.
They attempted to overthrow the occupying western army and in a 4 year war were comprehensively defeated, their temple that the whole of their faith rested on was trashed and they were scattered accross the world following the ensuing pograms.

In the early years of the 20thC following the defeat of the main Islamic power who had sided with Germany in WW1, Britian took over control of the terrain. Once more occupied by a non-muslim power, this provided the scattered remenants to visualise their dream. A holocaust by Germany in WW2killing a third of their numbers was the catalyst for a UN mandate. the world collectively decided to give them a tiny homeland covering roughly the area that their, in my opinion, imaginary deity had "promised them"

This is frankly a farcical claim to territory. If they wanted land, then why not give them a few thousand square miles of Canada? well, its because they needed a special city, one that their saviour would appear in, at some point, when he got round to it. This is ridiculous because if we all started wanting to go to the lands of our ancestors then Britain would claim France, France Britain, the Irish scotland and Norway and denmark all of the above countries and each other. Thats just sticking to northern europe!

Problem. The territory belonged to the locals, who had a few decades before started being called palastinians. Naturally this wasnt going to lead to cream buns, thoughtful debate and comprimise. it was going to lead to bloody protracted war. It did.
How very strange!+o(
Invasions in '47,'63, '67 and '73 and constant attacks since unto this day resulted in utter defeat for every country surrounding them. They claimed that Yaweh was protecting them. The other nations were puzzled about the defeats but put it down to a lack of faith and a test for them.:hmm:

Is Might Right? It shouldnt be, but unfortunatly until the world turns atheist then the problem wont be solved with peace. No centuries of arguements will make the Jews any less certain that one human in 2000BC heard the creator of the universe specifically parcel off a patch of desert for them, Ironically the only bit without oil!

Isreal has a right in my opinion to exist. it was created unlike most nations , by mandate and not war, but war is its unhappy past and its unhappy future.
It has a right to defend itself. if it flung 3700+ badly aimed rockets at civilain areas, I would denounce that just as i denounce Hamas.

If It sits there for ever and just takes the daily barrage, then its stupid. Rightious but stupid. Even a christian nation only takes turning the other cheek at pure lipservice, like they take the rest of their religion!

I thus repeat. if Isreal was to Bomb like Crazy, you would certainly know about it, and the world would come running again to the aid of the oppressed. Umm, thats the western world BTW!

i have great sympathy for the Palastinian position, as I certainly dont know the depths of their condition. I wonder if they might like to stop chucking rockets about, then they might see a change in that condition and some tempory and futile peace might break out again.

And thats it!:p
Reply

Dagless
02-24-2010, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Thanks for the support of the right to express veiws.

I'll outline my position on Israel.

A couple of thousand years ago a nation lived in a land that they thought their prophet had given them after slaughtering its occupants. He was called Moses. He thought , according to them, that their god yaweh had given them this land in perpituatry.
They attempted to overthrow the occupying western army and in a 4 year war were comprehensively defeated, their temple that the whole of their faith rested on was trashed and they were scattered accross the world following the ensuing pograms.

In the early years of the 20thC following the defeat of the main Islamic power who had sided with Germany in WW1, Britian took over control of the terrain. Once more occupied by a non-muslim power, this provided the scattered remenants to visualise their dream. A holocaust by Germany in WW2killing a third of their numbers was the catalyst for a UN mandate. the world collectively decided to give them a tiny homeland covering roughly the area that their, in my opinion, imaginary deity had "promised them"

This is frankly a farcical claim to territory. If they wanted land, then why not give them a few thousand square miles of Canada? well, its because they needed a special city, one that their saviour would appear in, at some point, when he got round to it. This is ridiculous because if we all started wanting to go to the lands of our ancestors then Britain would claim France, France Britain, the Irish scotland and Norway and denmark all of the above countries and each other. Thats just sticking to northern europe!

Problem. The territory belonged to the locals, who had a few decades before started being called palastinians. Naturally this wasnt going to lead to cream buns, thoughtful debate and comprimise. it was going to lead to bloody protracted war. It did.
How very strange!+o(
Invasions in '47,'63, '67 and '73 and constant attacks since unto this day resulted in utter defeat for every country surrounding them. They claimed that Yaweh was protecting them. The other nations were puzzled about the defeats but put it down to a lack of faith and a test for them.:hmm:

Is Might Right? It shouldnt be, but unfortunatly until the world turns atheist then the problem wont be solved with peace. No centuries of arguements will make the Jews any less certain that one human in 2000BC heard the creator of the universe specifically parcel off a patch of desert for them, Ironically the only bit without oil!

Isreal has a right in my opinion to exist. it was created unlike most nations , by mandate and not war, but war is its unhappy past and its unhappy future.
It has a right to defend itself. if it flung 3700+ badly aimed rockets at civilain areas, I would denounce that just as i denounce Hamas.

If It sits there for ever and just takes the daily barrage, then its stupid. Rightious but stupid. Even a christian nation only takes turning the other cheek at pure lipservice, like they take the rest of their religion!

I thus repeat. if Isreal was to Bomb like Crazy, you would certainly know about it, and the world would come running again to the aid of the oppressed. Umm, thats the western world BTW!

i have great sympathy for the Palastinian position, as I certainly dont know the depths of their condition. I wonder if they might like to stop chucking rockets about, then they might see a change in that condition and some tempory and futile peace might break out again.

And thats it!:p
What happened in '63? You've mentioned it in your list of years but I have not read of any war that year.

Even if you accept that the Israeli's needed land what is your excuse for them now? They have a country but are still occupying and building settlements on land which is not theirs. They are also expanding into Palestine and building walls on land which again is not their own.
Since '48 has Israel done anything to indicate it wants peace? The answer is no. There has not been a single attempt at a peace process which was initiated by Israel. It is always the Arabs or international pressure which starts the peace initiatives. Lastly, who has broken the most peace agreements? Yep you guessed it; Israel.
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 02:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
What happened in '63? You've mentioned it in your list of years but I have not read of any war that year.

Even if you accept that the Israeli's needed land what is your excuse for them now? They have a country but are still occupying and building settlements on land which is not theirs. They are also expanding into Palestine and building walls on land which again is not their own.
Since '48 has Israel done anything to indicate it wants peace? The answer is no. There has not been a single attempt at a peace process which was initiated by Israel. It is always the Arabs or International pressure which starts the peace initiatives. Lastly, who has broken the most peace agreements? Yep you guessed it; Israel.
My bad. Typo. 1969: War of attrition.

The rest of your points:
No excuse. they could shed their religion, and indeed should, as should everyone.Then there would be no need to fight at all. But if there was some tribal reasons still that caused disharmony, then just split the land 50/50.
Alternative is shipping either the Palastinains or the Jews to Canada or America or somewhere. Thats pretty silly.

As for Israels offers of peace, its much really about how genuine you consider the offers they make. You dont accept them so they wont work. They offer peace and make deals- you rocket them.
They do stupid things like build on disputed lands against UN mandates, so they renage on their deals.

Only real answer is secularism. Then what are they fighting over? a building with some nice decoration but no value.
Reply

The_Prince
02-24-2010, 02:11 AM
actually barney, the only way Israel can wipe out their fellow enemies in the mid-east is by nukes, and you ask why they dont use it? because it would hurt them as well, they would need to use quite alot of nukes, and that many nukes being used so close to Israel, will eventually hurt them, and kill them off too, so thats why they dont use it.

but dont worry, 50 years from now, that wont be the case anymore as the Muslim countries in that area will have nukes themselves.

and you have still proven that you are a racist, as you gave no evidence to support your racist claim that the other Muslim Arab side would wipe Israel out to the last, so all you have is your racist rant.
Reply

Dagless
02-24-2010, 02:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
My bad. Typo. 1969: War of attrition.

The rest of your points:
No excuse. they could shed their religion, and indeed should, as should everyone.Then there would be no need to fight at all. But if there was some tribal reasons still that caused disharmony, then just split the land 50/50.
Alternative is shipping either the Palastinains or the Jews to Canada or America or somewhere. Thats pretty silly.

As for Israels offers of peace, its much really about how genuine you consider the offers they make. You dont accept them so they wont work. They offer peace and make deals- you rocket them.
They do stupid things like build on disputed lands against UN mandates, so they renage on their deals.

Only real answer is secularism. Then what are they fighting over? a building with some nice decoration but no value.
No, the alternative is not shipping anyone anywhere, its simply Israel withdrawing from the occupied territory.
Why does anyone need to shed their religion? Not all Jews want to wipe out Palestine, in fact a lot of Jews don't even want a Jewish state. Likewise not all Muslims want to wipe out a Jewish state.
In fact you can plainly see that most Muslim nations want an end to this conflict. If you look at the UN GA's yearly vote on a peaceful settlement on the question of Palestine, you find that every year the Arabs (unanimously), and every other nation apart from the US and Israel agree to the pre June '67 borders. Every year Israel and the US reject the proposal. This is consistent.
In 2002 the Arab League put forward the same offer as the general assembly (ie. '67 borders) but went above and beyond what was required of them. They said not only would they recognise Israel but they would rebuild economic, trade, and tourism relations with them. I mean seriously, can you imagine that gesture? Do you want to guess if Israel accepted? Just face facts, Israel do not want peace. They want to continue terrorizing innocent people.
Reply

mahi
02-24-2010, 02:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Thanks for the support of the right to express veiws.

I'll outline my position on Israel.

A couple of thousand years ago a nation lived in a land that they thought their prophet had given them after slaughtering its occupants. He was called Moses. He thought , according to them, that their god yaweh had given them this land in perpituatry.
They attempted to overthrow the occupying western army and in a 4 year war were comprehensively defeated, their temple that the whole of their faith rested on was trashed and they were scattered accross the world following the ensuing pograms.

In the early years of the 20thC following the defeat of the main Islamic power who had sided with Germany in WW1, Britian took over control of the terrain. Once more occupied by a non-muslim power, this provided the scattered remenants to visualise their dream. A holocaust by Germany in WW2killing a third of their numbers was the catalyst for a UN mandate. the world collectively decided to give them a tiny homeland covering roughly the area that their, in my opinion, imaginary deity had "promised them"

This is frankly a farcical claim to territory. If they wanted land, then why not give them a few thousand square miles of Canada? well, its because they needed a special city, one that their saviour would appear in, at some point, when he got round to it. This is ridiculous because if we all started wanting to go to the lands of our ancestors then Britain would claim France, France Britain, the Irish scotland and Norway and denmark all of the above countries and each other. Thats just sticking to northern europe!

Problem. The territory belonged to the locals, who had a few decades before started being called palastinians. Naturally this wasnt going to lead to cream buns, thoughtful debate and comprimise. it was going to lead to bloody protracted war. It did.
How very strange!+o(
Invasions in '47,'63, '67 and '73 and constant attacks since unto this day resulted in utter defeat for every country surrounding them. They claimed that Yaweh was protecting them. The other nations were puzzled about the defeats but put it down to a lack of faith and a test for them.:hmm:

Is Might Right? It shouldnt be, but unfortunatly until the world turns atheist then the problem wont be solved with peace. No centuries of arguements will make the Jews any less certain that one human in 2000BC heard the creator of the universe specifically parcel off a patch of desert for them, Ironically the only bit without oil!

Isreal has a right in my opinion to exist. it was created unlike most nations , by mandate and not war, but war is its unhappy past and its unhappy future.
It has a right to defend itself. if it flung 3700+ badly aimed rockets at civilain areas, I would denounce that just as i denounce Hamas.

If It sits there for ever and just takes the daily barrage, then its stupid. Rightious but stupid. Even a christian nation only takes turning the other cheek at pure lipservice, like they take the rest of their religion!

I thus repeat. if Isreal was to Bomb like Crazy, you would certainly know about it, and the world would come running again to the aid of the oppressed. Umm, thats the western world BTW!

i have great sympathy for the Palastinian position, as I certainly dont know the depths of their condition. I wonder if they might like to stop chucking rockets about, then they might see a change in that condition and some tempory and futile peace might break out again.

And thats it!:p
Fair enough, I too am not against the idea of a Israeli/Jewish state, especially after the suffering in the holocaust. The manner in which it was created, was actually mainly war, displacing a million or so who had been living there, many who still are yet to have a home. But again, I don't mind Israel having a home. Its the Israeli antics that worry. Especially they're policy of expansion by kicking others out their home. And on the topic of Hamas throwing rockets, neither side are innocent. To be honest, Israel has probably been the cause of most of these. You kill someones family, they'd want revenge. But again, pointless to go into that, if we go into who started it, we'd probably have to go back as far as our historical records go.

Also, you mentioned that there won't be peace until everyone becomes atheist. How so? What if atheists decide money is important, and decide to conquer land for riches? What if they desire power? What stops atheists from going around killing who they want? Raping who they want? Morales, or rules that don't even apply to them? Sorry, peace itself is quite a tough issue.

Anyways, my main point.

I've been on about a gazillion forums, each arguing who's wrong, Israel or Hamas, Israel of Hizballah etc etc for years now. What a waste of time, no? What good does that go? Talk about solutions! How peace can be achieved!
Google the 'Geneva Initiative' as a starting point! Discuss peace! You never know, what you discuss here could be a starting point to peace. Better than arguing over who has the high ground anyone.

Peace be with everyone, literally.
Reply

barney
02-24-2010, 02:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
actually barney, the only way Israel can wipe out their fellow enemies in the mid-east is by nukes, and you ask why they dont use it? because it would hurt them as well, they would need to use quite alot of nukes, and that many nukes being used so close to Israel, will eventually hurt them, and kill them off too, so thats why they dont use it.

but dont worry, 50 years from now, that wont be the case anymore as the Muslim countries in that area will have nukes themselves.

and you have still proven that you are a racist, as you gave no evidence to support your racist claim that the other Muslim Arab side would wipe Israel out to the last, so all you have is your racist rant.
Agree about the nukes. They wont use em. The fallout would make the whole area untenable.

I dont need to provide proofs really. You already know what they are.
The slogans and mottos of from the river to the sea Maps of palastine containing all of current Israel, Ahmadinajads rants to wipe Israel off the map alongside his craving for a nice peaceful nuke power station to power his peaceful nation. If only he had a drop of oil for oil power he would have no need eh?!
You know all this, but just choose to ignore it. why?Well its Israel isnt it? its full of, Jews. theyre pigs and monkeys and the stones will call out to the belivers when they hide behind them. They are the worst of creatures yada yada yada.

I have no flag to wave for the Jews. Their original birth of the nation, even if based on a UN mandate, was founded on hallucinations thousands of years back. you may call me racist, but im a humanist, which is the opposite of a racist. I see no need for nations eventually, just humanity.

I'm antitheist, sure. I'd rather people embrace reality and see theism as the biggest and greatest obstacle to peace between all peoples. This is no more of a pipedream than The world submitting to Bhuddism or Islam or Christianity.

A racist is someone who holds predjudice against another based on race. I see no need for race.
Hope that explains , as well as deflates your assumptions.:hiding:
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