Minaret Debate Moves to Germany

[S<Chowdhury]

The desire of the Muslim community in the western German town of Volklingen to build a small minaret on a local mosque has sparked a debate reminiscent of that in Switzerland that ended in banning minarets.
"If their building is within the rules, then nobody has the right to stop them in Germany," Christoph Gottschalk, 60, a steel trader, told The Times on Thursday, February 11.

"Some people say they are against for aesthetic reasons, which I think is a stupid argument because Volklingen is one of the ugliest towns perhaps in the whole of Europe."

But not every body agrees.

In a town meeting held on the subject in late January, a number of locals came out against the minaret plan.

Some have even described the proposed small minaret, stretching a mere eight meters (26 feet) above the roof, as an infiltration of their community.

Muslims reportedly make up 5 percent of Volklingen's 40,000-strong population.

Germany is believed to be home to nearly 4 million Muslims, including 220,000 in Berlin alone.

Turks make up an estimated two thirds of the Muslim minority.

Islam comes third in Germany after Protestant and Catholic Christianity.

Referendum

Though it has only two members on the 51-member city council, the nationalistic National Democratic Party swiftly called for a referendum.

"I see a link with the Swiss situation," said Mayor Klaus Lorig, 59, a representative of Angela Merkel’s ruling Christian Democratic Union (CDU) party.

"Many people saw it on TV and they ask me, ‘Why are we not allowed to decide on our city?’ and I try to argue this is a city for everybody."

Swiss voters had backed a proposal by the right-wing Swiss People’s Party (SVP) for a blanket ban on minaret building in the Alpine country.

The SVP described the minarets as a symbol of Shari`ah and forced the referendum after collecting 100,000 signatures within 18 months from eligible voters.

A group called Pro-NRW (short for the German state North Rhine-Westphalia) is reportedly cooperating with right-wing political parties in many European countries for a Europe-wide minaret referendum.

Mayor Lorig has appealed to the Muslim community to withdraw the minaret proposal.

The mosque committee, however, said there were no legal grounds to reject its plan and warned that it was prepared to go to court.

"This is our democratic right, to have our places of worship just like there are churches," Adnan Atakli, the head of the Turkish-Muslim community, told the Times.

"Churches have a tower. I live here, we have a mosque and a mosque should have a minaret."

Source

Steel town divided over mosque minaret amid fears of Islamic quest for power (Times Online)

[Froggy]

The grand mosque in Köln is a bigger problem.

[Supreme]

Give Muslims a break, Europe.

[Froggy]

Give Muslims a break, Europe.

There's a lot of paranoia in Europe about Muslims, but some worries are justified. Minarets are not one of them though.

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[noorseeker]

There's a lot of paranoia in Europe about Muslims, but some worries are justified. Minarets are not one of them though.

Which worries are they then

[Froggy]

Which worries are they then

The problem is further immigration and shifting demographics, Muslims already living in Europe are a part of the problem too, but as citizens they should have equal rights in all respects and an additional minaret won't change a thing. Quite the opposite, the animosity towards Muslims may further radicalize people.

[noorseeker]

The animosity will further get people back to their deen, and may radicalize also.

Shouldnt all these countries be worrying about their economies, especially germany , which made 0% growth for the last quarter.

[Supreme]

There's a lot of paranoia in Europe about Muslims, but some worries are justified. Minarets are not one of them though.

Indeed, but removing minarets is not a rational response to those rational problems.

[Froggy]

The animosity will further get people back to their deen, and may radicalize also.

Shouldnt all these countries be worrying about their economies, especially germany , which made 0% growth for the last quarter.

They should and I said I do not find minarets the least problematic. Economic concerns however do not mean cultural concerns should be neglected.

Köln grand mosque is a subject I do find problematic and I don't think it should be constructed. The meaning of the grand mosque is symbolic and I doubt it is so big only to accommodate the masses. And its no coincidence the Muslim association chose Köln for its location, the city with Germany's and Europe's largest cathedral.
Similar concerns arise with the grand mosque that was supposed to be built next to the London olympic complex.

[The_Prince]

yes here are the fruits of secularism my friends, the one they want to install in Iran, :).

[Supreme]

yes here are the fruits of secularism my friends, the one they want to install in Iran, :).

You can't blame secularism for this, surely?

Would you rather Germany was a devoutly Christian run country instead of a secular state?

[Muezzin]

I thought this thread was about the Minaret Debate Moving to Germany.

But hey, what do I know? I'm only a mod who can remove any off-topic post in this forum.

[Supreme]

I thought this thread was about the Minaret Debate Moving to Germany.

But hey, what do I know? I'm only a mod who can remove any off-topic post in this forum.

Off topic. Stick to the topic at hand please.

My two cents is obviously that Europe is repeating its history of facism, hostility to religious minorities and that its irrational response to a rational concern.

[Froggy]

Off topic. Stick to the topic at hand please.

My two cents is obviously that Europe is repeating its history of facism, hostility to religious minorities and that its irrational response to a rational concern.

What do you propose a rational response would be?

[Supreme]

What do you propose a rational response would be?

Better education and more attempts by the governments to integrate the Muslim community as opposed to alienating them. Impoverished Muslim ghettos are part of the problem.

[Muezzin]

I thought this thread was about the Minaret Debate Moving to Germany.

But hey, what do I know? I'm only a mod who can remove any off-topic post in this forum.

Wasn't lying, was I? :)

Off-topic posts removed.

[Froggy]

Better education and more attempts by the governments to integrate the Muslim community as opposed to alienating them. Impoverished Muslim ghettos are part of the problem.

And if that doesn't work?

[Asiyah3]

Give Muslims a break, Europe.

Thank you Supreme!

Huoh... I'm so filled up with all this "The minaret is far more a symbol of religious-political power" "The burka is a challenge to the republic" blaa blaa blaa
Above this all, civilized Europeans actually believe this +o(

[Asiyah3]

The problem is further immigration and shifting demographics, Muslims already living in Europe are a part of the problem too, but as citizens they should have equal rights in all respects and an additional minaret won't change a thing. Quite the opposite, the animosity towards Muslims may further radicalize people.

Please stop wandering around and answer the question. What is the problem exactly?

[Asiyah3]

Köln grand mosque is a subject I do find problematic and I don't think it should be constructed. The meaning of the grand mosque is symbolic and I doubt it is so big only to accommodate the masses. And its no coincidence the Muslim association chose Köln for its location, the city with Germany's and Europe's largest cathedral.
Similar concerns arise with the grand mosque that was supposed to be built next to the London olympic complex.

What are you referring to? What are the concerns? I don't see any problem with building a mosque near the cathernal.

[Asiyah3]

And if that doesn't work?

And what makes you think it won't work?

[Supreme]

What are you referring to? What are the concerns? I don't see any problem with building a mosque near the cathernal.

There are some Christians- conservatives I believe they're called- that think building a mosque near a cathedral is inflammatory. Now, I personally thing building a mosque in a church is inflammatory (Hagia Sophia anyone?), but there's nothing wrong with building them near each other. In fact, it is a good example of community cohesion, and could lead to interfaith dialogues, with Christians being invited to witness Islamic worship and vice versa.

[Froggy]

And what makes you think it won't work?

Because it was the offical policy for several years and it didn't work.

[جوري]

(Hagia Sophia anyone?), .

This church was built as a mosque in the 12th and 13th centuries. After the Christinas captured Mertola, Portugal, it was turned into a church.


anyone..

Muslim architecture of the Mezquita.


The «(Great) Mezquita (of Córdoba or Cordova)» is a Roman Catholic Cathedral originally built as a Mosque



anyone..


I mean the list is endless.. so pls don't go that route..


also there is no room for integration of Muslims and kaffirs in Europe .. why not work on integrating the Hasidic community see if you have better luck there?



funny stuff!

[Froggy]

There are some Christians- conservatives I believe they're called- that think building a mosque near a cathedral is inflammatory. Now, I personally thing building a mosque in a church is inflammatory (Hagia Sophia anyone?), but there's nothing wrong with building them near each other. In fact, it is a good example of community cohesion, and could lead to interfaith dialogues, with Christians being invited to witness Islamic worship and vice versa.

It's not an example of community cohesion if people don't want it. That would be considered community cohesion forced upon the community. The residents of Köln however do support the mosque up to 60% according to certain polls.

[Froggy]

Muslim architecture of the Mezquita.

The mosque was built upon the foundations of an early church and used its rocks. It's a triple transformation, makes it even more fascinating.

[جوري]

The mosque was built upon the foundations of an early church and used its rocks. It's a triple transformation, makes it even more fascinating.

is it even more fascinating?

Media Tags are no longer supported

[Froggy]

There is nothing worng with churches being turned into mosques or mosques into churches.

[Supreme]

This church was built as a mosque in the 12th and 13th centuries. After the Christinas captured Mertola, Portugal, it was turned into a church.


anyone..

Muslim architecture of the Mezquita.


The «(Great) Mezquita (of Córdoba or Cordova)» is a Roman Catholic Cathedral originally built as a Mosque



anyone..


I mean the list is endless.. so pls don't go that route..


also there is no room for integration of Muslims and kaffirs in Europe .. why not work on integrating the Hasidic community see if you have better luck there?



funny stuff!

No one is going down that route Gossamer- please don't look too much into my posts and feel you have to respond to bracketed words with a long post trying to create an argument I wasn't having before.

It's not an example of community cohesion if people don't want it. That would be considered community cohesion forced upon the community. The residents of Köln however do support the mosque up to 60% according to certain polls.

Demonstrably, people do want it.

Problem?

[Asiyah3]

Because it was the offical policy for several years and it didn't work.

Please elaborate.

Edit: I'd love to see some facts of this attempt.

[جوري]

No one is going down that route Gossamer- please don't look too much into my posts and feel you have to respond to bracketed words with a long post trying to create an argument I wasn't having before.

?

I can be cool with that, however why mention it if it didn't hold any significance and was just a passing fancy type thing?

all the best

[Froggy]

Demonstrably, people do want it.

Problem?

The problem as I said before is symbolic. The biggest mosque in Germany is being constructed in Köln, a city with European largest cathedral and only second or third in Germany according to number of Muslims. Some people believe the choice of Köln is no coincidence..
Is it even about people supporting it, froma liberal point of view?
Do Londoners support the giant mosque next to the Olympic complex, do you support it?

[Froggy]

Please elaborate.

Edit: I'd love to see some facts of this attempt.

Well, young British born Muslims went to blow themselves in London. Thets one indication it didn't work. And I even hear Muslim-only areas are arising in Britain, Islamic preachers preach hate in mosques, and the very fgact that a heavy religious immigrant stays heavily religious and live in their own society or ghettos is an indication integration didn't work quite fully.

[Asiyah3]

I still not see any kinda problem in building a mosque in Köln :/

[Supreme]

I can be cool with that, however why mention it if it didn't hold any significance and was just a passing fancy type thing?

all the best

It didn't hold any real significance- hence why it was in brackets- I was merely giving an example. In history, my teacher always taught me to give examples to back up my point.

The problem as I said before is symbolic. The biggest mosque in Germany is being constructed in Köln, a city with European largest cathedral and only second or third in Germany according to number of Muslims. Some people believe the choice of Köln is no coincidence..
Is it even about people supporting it, froma liberal point of view?
Do Londoners support the giant mosque next to the Olympic complex, do you support it?

It's not really about public opinion- it's about a bunch of people with enough money and incentive to construct a religious building in a secular country that allows them to do so.

I don't really support the megamosque, partially because I believe Muslims have enough places of worship and I don't think it is necessary exactly. However, it is their right as a religious community to build it, and as long as they cough up the cash, why not? It's actually an expansion on a present mosque in the site already, although last I heard on the megamosque, the council were scrapping its planning permission.

[AlbanianMuslim]

I might get flack for this, but I believe that if the country is not predominantly muslim, a minaret being a problem is not surprising. Its not a big deal for one to be in say, Prizren Kosovo where everyone is pretty much muslim, but in a town in America or Germany it is a problem for the non muslims. We can expect as much. Im not saying its ok but I understand why the non muslims feel that way. If the Jewish synagogue down the road from my neighborhood said their prayers on loud speaker for me to hear, well I wouldnt be happy so I cant be hypocritical about this issue.

[Asiyah3]

Well, young British born Muslims went to blow themselves in London. Thets one indication it didn't work.

Thanks for mentioning that. Actually it's the opposite, if they would have been educated with regards to their religion then that could've been avoided. (Do I need to give you the fatwa on this matter? I assume you know Islam strictly forbits suicide.)

And I even hear Muslim-only areas are arising in Britain, Islamic preachers preach hate in mosques, and the very fgact that a heavy religious immigrant stays heavily religious and live in their own society or ghettos is an indication integration didn't work quite fully.

It seems to me that you only confirmed Supreme's proposal.

[Pygoscelis]

Please stop wandering around and answer the question. What is the problem exactly?

The problem for these European states is the subset of muslims who are more devoted to their religion than to their state. Should the two conflict....

[Amadeus85]

The problem for these European states is the subset of muslims who are more devoted to their religion than to their state. Should the two conflict....

State is important, but God is and should be always more important than state/country. Treating state higher than God is idolatry.

Of course it doesn't mean that state is not important at all, It's very important, but we should know the correct hierarchy.

God, family, nation.

[Muezzin]

The problem for these European states is the subset of muslims who are more devoted to their religion than to their state. Should the two conflict....

...they might build a minaret?

The horror. The horror.

[Skavau]

State is important, but God is and should be always more important than state/country. Treating state higher than God is idolatry.

Of course it doesn't mean that state is not important at all, It's very important, but we should know the correct hierarchy.

God, family, nation.

Well these are your beliefs and you are welcome to them. However, in actuality whether a nationstate believes it represents the viewpoint of God or not, it would always disagree with your hierarchy. If you, under the premise of deeming God more worthy of obedience that the objectives a state engage in civil disobedience of some sort, you can expect an appropriate response by the state. The state always, and not always with malovelent or totalitarian intent views itself as necessarily the highest order.

A moral state won't ask you to sell out your family for its own gain, but that same state would still wish to take you to justice if you had committed a crime within its boundaries irrespective of your religious beliefs or your family's objections.

[aamirsaab]

All this controversy over a minaret. People always whine about Muslims complaining about the tiniest of things, yet those same melon farmers complain about pieces of cloth and minarets.

Whatever losers.

[mahi]

Its the Islamization of Europe.. More like the Islamophobia of Europe. It's all to stop the spread of Islam isn't it. Little do people realise Islam is in the heart, and you can never pass any laws to stop that.

[Froggy]

All this controversy over a minaret. People always whine about Muslims complaining about the tiniest of things, yet those same melon farmers complain about pieces of cloth and minarets.

Whatever losers.

Muslims complain about things melon farmers don't let them do.

[Amadeus85]

Well these are your beliefs and you are welcome to them. However, in actuality whether a nationstate believes it represents the viewpoint of God or not, it would always disagree with your hierarchy. If you, under the premise of deeming God more worthy of obedience that the objectives a state engage in civil disobedience of some sort, you can expect an appropriate response by the state. The state always, and not always with malovelent or totalitarian intent views itself as necessarily the highest order.

I know, that's why I am against secular state.