Schools allowed to ban face veils

[Beardo]

It says efforts must be made to accommodate religious clothing, but stresses the importance of teachers and pupils being able to make eye contact.

It comes after a girl failed in a legal bid to overturn her school's niqab ban.

Islamic groups have been divided in their response - some "shocked" and others welcoming the guidance.

Headteachers' leaders have applauded the decision, saying that it would provide "clarity" and "reassurance" for schools.

The issue of religious dress has become an increasingly complicated one for schools in recent years, with a handful of high profile court cases over the right to wear a full veil.

A court victory by a Buckinghamshire school (which cannot be named for legal reasons) has prompted the updated guidance.

The school argued the veil made communication between teachers and pupils difficult and thus hampered learning.

Teachers needed to be able to tell if a pupil was enthusiastic, paying attention or even distressed but full-face veils prevented this, it said.

This position was upheld by the High Court - which refused to grant a judicial review - and is expected to form a key part of the guidance.

'Consult parents'

The guidance says schools need to be able to identify individual pupils in order to maintain good order and spot intruders.

"If a pupil's face is obscured for any reason the teacher may not be able to judge their engagement with learning or secure their participation in discussions and practical activities," it adds.

Schools minister Jim Knight said: "Schools should consult parents and the wider community when setting uniform policy.

"And while they should make every effort to accommodate social, religious or medical requirements of individual pupils, the needs of safety, security and effective learning in the school must always take precedence."

The head teacher of the Buckinghamshire school, who also cannot be named, said it would be very useful to have some clear guidance from the Department for Education and Skills (DfES).

"It's not right that schools should have to be arguing this out case by case," she told the BBC News website.

"Obviously there's a trade-off between schools retaining autonomy over school uniform decisions, on the other hand we will have some very clear guidance from the DfES within which to work."

'Dismayed'

There were divided responses from the Muslim community.

The chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, Massoud Shadjareh, said he was "dismayed" by the DfES guidance.

"Successive ministers dealing with education issues have failed to give proper guidance when requested by human rights campaigners about schools' obligations regarding religious dress, including the head scarf.

"To now proceed to issue guidance against Muslim communities is simply shocking," he said.

But the Muslim Council of Britain's education spokesman, Tahir Alam, said that the new guidance did not "alter the position very much" and said "the vast majority of schools are able to solve these issues locally".

Dr Tag Hargey of the Muslim Education Centre welcomed the guidance.

"When you conceal the face, that actually not only dehumanises the person involved, but also creates a chasm, a gap, a bridge of non-understanding between communities and I think the sooner we can get rid of this veil, this face veiling, this face masking in Muslim societies across Britain, so much the better."

'Equality issue'

Ayshah Ishmael, a teacher at a Muslim girls' school in Preston who wears the niqab away from the classroom, told the BBC wearing the veil promoted equality.

She said: "You're judged for who you are and not what you are, so I think there are two arguments to the whole equality issue."

The DfES said it was not ordering or advising head teachers to ban the veil, simply confirming that they have the ability to do so if they wish, so long as they carry out proper consultation.

Association of School and College Leaders' general secretary Dr John Dunford said he was pleased the government is supporting school leaders in upholding school uniforms.

"Repeated and blatant breaches of uniform policy undermine the school ethos," he added.


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I just wanted to know your opinion on one specific thing...: What's your opinion on having the students take off the veil in the classrooms? Not in the school public areas. Just specifically the classroom.

source: http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_ne...#vote_veil_ban

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
I understand the class room thing and on that basis I agree. But, this is an exception to the rule

[Beardo]

:sl:
I understand the class room thing and on that basis I agree. But, this is an exception to the rule

I also was on the same opinion, but didn't have the confidence to speak out. Glad we both agree on that.

[Uthman]

The problem I would have is that some sisters view it as their religious obligation to wear the Niqab. So forcing such sisters to remove their niqab is tantamount to forcing them to remove something which they view as being obligatory.

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[Beardo]

The problem I would have is that some sisters view it as their religious obligation to wear the Niqab. So forcing such sisters to remove their niqab is tantamount to forcing them to remove something which they view as being obligatory.

That's true. The only solution is an all girls school in that case. Do they have many of them in UK?

[Uthman]

No, I don't think there are many of them. I do know of one though...http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...op-tables.html

I believe home schooling might be another option too.

[Beardo]

No, I don't think there are many of them. I do know of one though...http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...op-tables.html

I believe home schooling might be another option too.

That's something where parents need to be highly involved in, if you want your daughter/child to have a good education. I don't know how many parents are capable of doing that.

[Uthman]

:salamext:

That's very true, but it's the 'lesser of two evils', so to speak. I would say that obeying Allah is infinitely more important than having a 'good' education.

[Beardo]

:salamext:

That's very true, but it's the 'lesser of two evils', so to speak. I would say that obeying Allah is infinitely more important than having a 'good' education.

That's true. But it's not like they're being asked to take off their Hijaab.

People undermine education. I know so many children who go to Islamic school and when time comes to learn the actual sacred knowledge, they are slow in understanding etc. It's sad, because this could have been avoided. I believe there's a positive alternative to everything.

[Uthman]

That's true. But it's not like they're being asked to take off their Hijaab.

Indeed, but remember there's a difference of opinion as to whether the Niqab is obligatory or not. I'm not qualified to draw conclusions from the evidences - Allah knows best. The point is that some sisters follow the opinion that it is obligatory. That then poses a serious problem for them.

People undermine education. I know so many children who go to Islamic school and when time comes to learn the actual sacred knowledge, they are slow in understanding etc. It's sad, because this could have been avoided. I believe there's a positive alternative to everything.

That really is sad. :(

I'm sure there always is an alternative for everything, even if it's not positive from our limited point of view. As Allah Jalla wa 'alaa mentions:

...and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. [2:216]

[The_Prince]

i agree with this, as said, its the exception to the general ruling, and there is an alternative, an all girls shcool or all girls section.

this will be a good thing for the future, as im sure Muslims will move toward making such schools eventually, and im more than sure that saudia arabia will have no problem in funding such projects, so theres to yaaaaaaa to all the right wingers who celebrate about this story.

[tango92]

:salamext:

That's very true, but it's the 'lesser of two evils', so to speak. I would say that obeying Allah is infinitely more important than having a 'good' education.

in this country you can still get educated and not disobey Allah and getting a good education is big part of being a muslim.

what our ummah lacks is powerful and highly educated people. sure we have some corrupt officials in our parliment but i could hardly call them muslim.

the problem is that muslims either pursue knowledge of islam or western education, with each party thinking the other is wasting its time. we should be be producing Mumin at the forefront of both

[noorseeker]

A lot of scholars do have an excellent education in deen and secular education

[Uthman]

:salamext:

in this country you can still get educated and not disobey Allah and getting a good education is big part of being a muslim

But if the Niqab is banned in classrooms, those Niqabi sisters who follow the opinion that the Niqab is obligatory will longer be able to get a conventional education in the classroom without disobeying Allah. From their perspective anyway.

[Froggy]

:salamext:

But if the Niqab is banned in classrooms, those Niqabi sisters who follow the opinion that the Niqab is obligatory will longer be able to get a conventional education in the classroom without disobeying Allah. From their perspective anyway.

They will be able alright, but it will be tougher for them, having to find an all-girls school.

[cat eyes]

:salamext:

But if the Niqab is banned in classrooms, those Niqabi sisters who follow the opinion that the Niqab is obligatory will longer be able to get a conventional education in the classroom without disobeying Allah. From their perspective anyway.

if it happened in my country id probably leave my country then to seek education there, a country where there is no ban on religious clothing. this is terrible i honestly don't know what these sisters are going to do but Alhamdulilah there is alot available to in this day and age.. like online courses which my friend is now doing she dose not leave the home without her niqaab

[Skavau]

this will be a good thing for the future, as im sure Muslims will move toward making such schools eventually, and im more than sure that saudia arabia will have no problem in funding such projects, so theres to yaaaaaaa to all the right wingers who celebrate about this story.

??

Islam comes across to me as pretty right-wing really itself. Sometimes the apologetics of it comes across to me as slightly populist.

Just a silly comment by me there.

[The_Prince]

??

Islam comes across to me as pretty right-wing really itself. Sometimes the apologetics of it comes across to me as slightly populist.

Just a silly comment by me there.

Islam isnt right wing, just because there are a few aspects in which right wingers agree on, such as homosexuality, and capital punishment, doesnt mean were the same.

Islam is all for an open multi-cultural society, and in Islam theres nothing to do with race, which is the complete opposite of right wingers who are mainly racists, hate mixing with other cultures and races, and only interested in their own culture and race. Islam is all about helping each other out, even if the other is a none-Muslim, for right wingers, its helping the other man out, if he happens to be from your race, culture, and country!!!!!!!!!!!

[Supreme]

I agree with a Niqab ban in secular comprehensive schools, however they should ban all forms of religious wear as well, and wearing a ridiculous veil as opposed to school uniform is beyond the pale. At a faith school that isn't Muslim, I also agree with ban on the Niqab. However, if you send your child to a Muslim school, this should not be a problem.

[Beardo]

I agree with a Niqab ban in secular comprehensive schools, however they should ban all forms of religious wear as well, and wearing a ridiculous veil as opposed to school uniform is beyond the pale. At a faith school that isn't Muslim, I also agree with ban on the Niqab. However, if you send your child to a Muslim school, this should not be a problem.

You're coming to an Islamic forum and then ridiculing our ways.

At any rate, it's not ridiculous. People these days treat intercourse like going to the bathroom. Would you rather they wear the tattered, sagged, and exposing garments people wear these days? They dress in such a manner that it appeals the opposite gender, and then they complain of rape.

I personally feel the school can ONLY ask the student to take it off in the CLASSROOM.

[VizierX]

and wearing a ridiculous veil as opposed to school uniform is beyond the pale.

I don't approve of the veil in schools but that is just your subjective opinion. Please try to keep your bigotry in check.

[Supreme]

You're coming to an Islamic forum and then ridiculing our ways.

This is actually the only thing in Islam I dislike. My liberal frame of mind refuses to accept such overt discrimination.

At any rate, it's not ridiculous. People these days treat intercourse like going to the bathroom. Would you rather they wear the tattered, sagged, and exposing garments people wear these days? They dress in such a manner that it appeals the opposite gender, and then they complain of rape.

I don't want to get into a discussion about it now, but no one deserves to be raped. People can appeal to the opposite gender as much as they like, that isn't an excuse ot grounds for rape, never has been, never will be. This isn't a dichotomy of revealing lingerie vs the Niqab- there is MUCH ground to be covered, and indeed is being covered, between those extremes. Any extreme is ridiculous, I agree that some outifts out today are just as female *objectifying* as the Niqab, and I am disappointed that such outfits are deemed somehow less sexist that the Niqab, when they are both incredibly sexist.

I personally feel the school can ONLY ask the student to take it off in the CLASSROOM.

Again, it bubbles down to whether the school is secular or not. Secular schools do not want to be associated with religion, so don't be surprised if garments such as the Niqab, interpreted by many as sign of division and refusal of cultural assimilation, do not make it into the acceptable school uniform band.

[Beardo]

This is actually the only thing in Islam I dislike. My liberal frame of mind refuses to accept such overt discrimination.

I don't want to get into a discussion about it now, but no one deserves to be raped. People can appeal to the opposite gender as much as they like, that isn't an excuse ot grounds for rape, never has been, never will be. This isn't a dichotomy of revealing lingerie vs the Niqab- there is MUCH ground to be covered, and indeed is being covered, between those extremes. Any extreme is ridiculous, I agree that some outifts out today are just as female *objectifying* as the Niqab, and I am disappointed that such outfits are deemed somehow less sexist that the Niqab, when they are both incredibly sexist.

Again, it bubbles down to whether the school is secular or not. Secular schools do not want to be associated with religion, so don't be surprised if garments such as the Niqab, interpreted by many as sign of division and refusal of cultural assimilation, do not make it into the acceptable school uniform band.

Thing about you, even though I do see you bash Islam about quite often... I admire the fact that you know the terminologies, such as Niqaab etc.

No one is FORCED to wear the Niqaab. And if they are, it's indeed a sad state of affairs. (Niqaab, NOT Hijaab)

Niqaab is not discrimination. It's self-respect and modesty. I know you've probably heard this before, and sick of hearing it again. But that's the key point to understand. I don't know why people cannot respect the Niqaabis for the courage they have. In this day and age to wear Niqaab is indeed a difficult feat.

Even you must admit, wearing a veil is tough. They do it because their faith is at a higher level. It's not necessary they do it for their husbands.

[Froggy]

Islam isnt right wing, just because there are a few aspects in which right wingers agree on, such as homosexuality, and capital punishment, doesnt mean were the same.

Islam is all for an open multi-cultural society, and in Islam theres nothing to do with race, which is the complete opposite of right wingers who are mainly racists, hate mixing with other cultures and races, and only interested in their own culture and race. Islam is all about helping each other out, even if the other is a none-Muslim, for right wingers, its helping the other man out, if he happens to be from your race, culture, and country!!!!!!!!!!!

Islamic state isn't exactly multicultural and egalitarian. From my impression it does everything Muslims don't come in touch with what is perceived as negative influence on the state faith. And also minorities don't have the rights Muslims in often right-wing-governed Europe do.
Unless of course by right wing you mean neo-nazis in which case you're right, Islamic state is better.

[Froggy]

Even you must admit, wearing a veil is tough. They do it because their faith is at a higher level. It's not necessary they do it for their husbands.

It's about schools, few schoolgirls will have been married already ...
I is tough and one should respect women fr wearing it provided it is their own choice based on strong imaan, however, as Supreme said already, the niqaab is associated with division and refusal of cultural assimilation and also causes communation problems and is interpreted by some as a safety risk, therefre secualar and non-muslim schoolsshould be allowed to ban them in their premices, including at parental meetings and similar occasions.

[Beardo]

It's about schools, few schoolgirls will have been married already ...
I is tough and one should respect women fr wearing it provided it is their own choice based on strong imaan, however, as Supreme said already, the niqaab is associated with division and refusal of cultural assimilation and also causes communation problems and is interpreted by some as a safety risk, therefre secualar and non-muslim schoolsshould be allowed to ban them in their premices, including at parental meetings and similar occasions.

I guess that can be accepted. It's better than banning it all together anyway. We already mentioned that one cannot blame if they ask you to take it off in the classroom specifically.

[Supreme]

Thing about you, even though I do see you bash Islam about quite often... I admire the fact that you know the terminologies, such as Niqaab etc.

I seldom bash Islam. Questioning and bashing are not synonymous. I come to every discussion with an open mind, and obviously I have an opinion on the matter already, but if you feel I'm *bashing* Islam (which I won't be, but still, if you think I am) feel free to change my mind.

No one is FORCED to wear the Niqaab. And if they are, it's indeed a sad state of affairs. (Niqaab, NOT Hijaab)

Oh, I agree that in Britain, the general majority of Niqaabis chose to wear it of their own free will, hence why almost all Muslim women I encounter don't wear it.

Niqaab is not discrimination. It's self-respect and modesty

What could be more immodest than choosing to dress in a way that automatically makes you stand out? Modesty is the opposite of being noticed in a crows because of what you look like...

I know you've probably heard this before, and sick of hearing it again. But that's the key point to understand. I don't know why people cannot respect the Niqaabis for the courage they have. In this day and age to wear Niqaab is indeed a difficult feat.

It's not difficult in the strict sense of the word. Working a job that pays peanuts whilst simultaneously trying to pass chemistry A2 is difficult. It is also not courageous. As a matter of fact, seeing as according to you, more *immodest* forms of clothing make the wearer a rape magnet, it is the complete opposite of courageous. The real courage lies in the women who, according to you, brave rape they're so apparantly susceptible to every time they step out the door because of their revealing clothing. It doesn't really take a lot of courage to wear a garment in a country that allows you to do so. All you'll really get is a few looks or a bad comment at worse. How many 'courageous' Niqaabis have been killed for wearing a Niqaab as of late again?

[Uthman]

Supreme, please. You're entitled to your views but calling the veil 'ridiculous' and 'sexist' constitutes a direct attack against a completely orthodox Islamic practise. And that constitutes a violation of forum rule #16.

Please be more careful about the way you express your views from now on.