American School System: Falling alongside economy?

[Beardo]

I was reading on CNN somewhere that Utah is planning to make 12th grade optional to save $60 Million.

What's your guys' opinion on this? They've already cut the classes so much so that it's impossible to graduate on your predicted original plans. I couldn't find half the courses I needed this semester, and it's only projected to get worse.

[جوري]

I think the public school system sucks.. you'll have to be a real diamond in the rough to survive it

I haven't nor know of anyone who has gone to public school and I wouldn't advise it..

:w:

[The_Prince]

they can give over a trillion dollars to banks when their in an econamic crisis, and cant help out the education? they want the youth to be dumb, the dumber they are, the easier they are to control. :)

[Beardo]

I think the public school system sucks.. you'll have to be a real diamond in the rough to survive it

I haven't nor know of anyone who has gone to public school and I wouldn't advise it..

:w:

I think a student can adapt to any scenario and excel if he has proper upbringing etc.

But we're talking about something major here. You cannot cut down the education years. It'll only result in more college drop outs and less advancements. imsad

I mean, look at the quality of the iPad. Hideous! Shameful!

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[CosmicPathos]

on the contrary, canadian public schooling is pretty good ... hmm

['Abd Al-Maajid]

:sl:

they want the youth to be dumb, the dumber they are, the easier they are to control. :)

I totally agree with this phrase, brother....I'm +o( of this world affairs...

[جوري]

I think a student can adapt to any scenario and excel if he has proper upbringing etc.

But we're talking about something major here. You cannot cut down the education years. It'll only result in more college drop outs and less advancements. imsad

I mean, look at the quality of the iPad. Hideous! Shameful!

I think you need multiple factors to excel.. I am with you that if your drive is great you can overcome obstacles.. so far we have only had two homeless girls into Harvard.. but how many homeless for instance do you know even complete schools...

It is a multi-faceted issue. You can't have one factor and be successful unless you are extremely gifted in that regard...

No one expects much out of these kids and they in return don't give much.. a vicious cycle .. low expectations beget low achievers beget low socioeconomic conditions beget multiple bad things.. hence the prophet Muhammed PBUH used to seek refuge from these things..
Ignorance, poverty, stinginess .. surely they are the worst conditions and beget the worst...

:w:

[Beardo]

I think you need multiple factors to excel.. I am with you that if your drive is great you can overcome obstacles.. so far we have only had two homeless girls into Harvard.. but how many homeless for instance do you know even complete schools...

It is a multi-faceted issue. You can't have one factor and be successful unless you are extremely gifted in that regard...

No one expects much out of these kids and they in return don't give much.. a vicious cycle .. low expectations beget low achievers beget low socioeconomic conditions beget multiple bad things.. hence the prophet Muhammed PBUH used to seek refuge from these things..
Ignorance, poverty, stinginess .. surely they are the worst conditions and beget the worst...

:w:

Have you ever considered opening a blog? :X I think many people can benefit from your many posts.

Anyway, I agree. I just can't see any good coming out of kids dropping out of school sooner. We'll be cutting $60 Million maybe from education, but that'll be transferred to paying for life sentences in jail as students become lazier and end up depending on crime for a living.

[titus]

I haven't nor know of anyone who has gone to public school and I wouldn't advise it..

In the United States roughly 90% of students are in public school. Public schools are like most anything else in that there are good ones and there are bad ones.

Education is one of the three vital things that the government should be spending money on (defense and the Post Office being the other two). Everything else is just extra.

Democracies have to have an educated populace. That is not an option, it is a necessity. An ignorant and uneducated population cannot make intelligent decisions about their government.

As cliche as it sounds, investing in education is investing in the future. You get what you pay for. Public schools can be, and sometimes are, superior to private schools. This is as it should be because a good education should not go only to those that can afford it. Knowledge should not only go to the highest bidder.

[Froggy]

60 million is not a lot of money, that's probably less than the federal administration spends on postage stamps. It's unwise to save on education to try to save such a negligible amount of money.
This will only make the 12th grade optional, not abolish it so it's not that bad. Several other countries only have 8 years of compulsory education and are doing fine.

[جوري]

Have you ever considered opening a blog? :X I think many people can benefit from your many posts.

Anyway, I agree. I just can't see any good coming out of kids dropping out of school sooner. We'll be cutting $60 Million maybe from education, but that'll be transferred to paying for life sentences in jail as students become lazier and end up depending on crime for a living.

I have a blog.. it is in my profile..

just not an opinion blog though...:hmm:

:w:

[جوري]

In the United States roughly 90% of students are in public school. Public schools are like most anything else in that there are good ones and there are bad ones.

Education is one of the three vital things that the government should be spending money on (defense and the Post Office being the other two). Everything else is just extra.

Democracies have to have an educated populace. That is not an option, it is a necessity. An ignorant and uneducated population cannot make intelligent decisions about their government.

As cliche as it sounds, investing in education is investing in the future. You get what you pay for. Public schools can be, and sometimes are, superior to private schools. This is as it should be because a good education should not go only to those that can afford it. Knowledge should not only go to the highest bidder.

Why are you telling me this? Everyone I know has gone through a top ten school..

google
spence, dalton, UNIS, Brearley to name a few and tell me how you can even begin to compare a school in which at least 90% of its students end up in an Ivy league to places where you have to be searched for weapons at the door?

There are alternatives to public schools.. I think even a small parochial school where the tuition won't break the budget and not necessarily a top ten school will be better than the abomination that is the public school system?

as for not an option.. well I guess you need to explain why the drop out rate is so high?

all the best

[titus]

Why are you telling me this? Everyone I know has gone through a top ten school..

Then you lead an extremely sheltered and privileged life if you have never met anyone that went to public school. I highly recommend getting out more.

google
spence, dalton, UNIS, Brearley to name a few and tell me how you can even begin to compare a school in which at least 90% of its students end up in an Ivy league to places where you have to be searched for weapons at the door?

I agree, public schools will never be able to reach the levels of the elite private schools. That does not mean that public schools cannot give a good education, and there are many public schools that give a great education, better than some private schools. This is as it should be as it is governments duty to make sure that the population has access a great education.

Don't assume that simply because a school is public that it is inferior, and don't assume that simply because a school is private that it provides a great education.

Surely you don't believe that only the wealthy should be able to get superior educations?

Google Spence? Tuition $34,000 a year. Dalton? Around $24,000. Brearley? Around $24,000.

You can google Talented and Gifted Dallas and Science/Engineering Magnet Dallas (both just down the road from me). All have a tuition of $0. All are public schools in which you get a superior education, and admittance is based on ability, not on how big your pocketbook is.

So, like I said before, knowledge should not go to just the highest bidders. That is a recipe for disaster.

There are alternatives to public schools.. I think even a small parochial school where the tuition won't break the budget and not necessarily a top ten school will be better than the abomination that is the public school system?

There are many people that it would break their budget.

as for not an option.. well I guess you need to explain why the drop out rate is so high?

For a democracy to succeed the population has to be educated. That is what I said is not an option.

As for the high drop out rates, well that does need to improve. Our public schools are not what they should be (although they are not the abomination you claim) and things do need to change. The answer, though, is not to send everyone to private schools. The answer is to improve the current public system.

Those not from the United States, though, probably need to realize that this is something that has to be done from state to state, as the national government has little say in how most public schools are run. That is part of the reason why there are large disparities in the quality of schools from state to state.

[جوري]

Then you lead an extremely sheltered and privileged life if you have never met anyone that went to public school. I highly recommend getting out more.

You are the company you keep and I certainly prefer to stay away from riffraff.. as for who I deal with, surely in my practice I have seen the scum of the earth, but I am better prepared in dealing with them above weapons and four letter words!

I agree, public schools will never be able to reach the levels of the elite private schools. That does not mean that public schools cannot give a good education, and there are many public schools that give a great education, better than some private schools. This is as it should be as it is governments duty to make sure that the population has access a great education.

I'd like to see some realistic statics head to head of where kids who attend public school vs. private school end up after receiving their high school diploma if they should reach that level at all in a public school.

Don't assume that simply because a school is public that it is inferior, and don't assume that simply because a school is private that it provides a great education.

It isn't as assumption, it is a fact!
When I see a school with 90% of its girls heading off to ivy leagues compared to 4 out of ten drop outs, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that something is amiss from public education!

Surely you don't believe that only the wealthy should be able to get superior educations?

In fact you don't have to be wealthy to attend a private school!

Google Spence? Tuition $34,000 a year. Dalton? Around $24,000. Brearley? Around $24,000.

I am aware of the spence tuition, I'd not have mentioned If I had no knowledge of it.. however again see my previous response. There are many means of attending a superior private school without paying out your entire salary.. question is, do you wish to invest in your kids education?

You can google Talented and Gifted Dallas and Science/Engineering Magnet Dallas (both just down the road from me). All have a tuition of $0. All are public schools in which you get a superior education, and admittance is based on ability, not on how big your pocketbook is.

See previous two responses.. plus I am not talking Texas.. I am talking inner city schools compared to Private schools!

So, like I said before, knowledge should not go to just the highest bidders. That is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think you have done remote home work on the matter to impart with any sort of wisdom!

There are many people that it would break their budget.

and hence I stated even if you can't find means to put your kids in a top ten school then even a small parochial school is better off than a public one.. I don't even know if you are arguing because you love to argue so much or because you have slight knowledge on the subject.

For a democracy to succeed the population has to be educated. That is what I said is not an option.

Indeed.. I guess that explains why the system is a mess, economically, politically and socially!

As for the high drop out rates, well that does need to improve. Our public schools are not what they should be (although they are not the abomination you claim) and things do need to change. The answer, though, is not to send everyone to private schools. The answer is to improve the current public system.

You do that, you run for office and instate back the twelfth grade they are willing to make into an 'optional!'

Those not from the United States, though, probably need to realize that this is something that has to be done from state to state, as the national government has little say in how most public schools are run. That is part of the reason why there are large disparities in the quality of schools from state to state.

Those not from the united states, need to do the sane thing and google the school you'll enroll your kids into.. your children are your investment.. people who expect lowly and mediocre things out of life usually get it..

[titus]

You are the company you keep and I certainly prefer to stay away from riffraff.

90% of the population is riffraff to you? Does going to a private school make you a better human being? I think the air must be thin in that ivory tower.

When I see a school with 90% of its girls heading off to ivy leagues compared to 4 out of ten drop outs, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that something is amiss from public education!

You are using a top ten private school in the nation as your private school benchmark? You keep comparing the top private schools in the nation with the worst public schools in the nation. The fact is that the reality lies in the middle. The vast majority of people go to neither a top ten private school nor an impoverished inner city school.

There are many means of attending a superior private school without paying out your entire salary.. question is, do you wish to invest in your kids education?

Tell me the average annual income of the parents of the children of those schools, then try to convince anyone that money is not a factor.

Advising people to go to private schools instead of public schools is easy. Actually making that possible is a completely different story. It reminds me of the guy who said that if the Haitians were tired of poverty and corruption then they should just move to another country. Easy to say, hard to do. Let them eat cake, eh?

See previous two responses.. plus I am not talking Texas.. I am talking inner city schools compared to Private schools!

I thought we were talking private vs public. If you are talking only about inner city schools then you should actually mention that next time.

and hence I stated even if you can't find means to put your kids in a top ten school then even a small parochial school is better off than a public one..

Like I said before, it depends on the public school and the parochial school, and it depends on the income of that family. Even small private schools can break the bank of those not already making a comfortable living.

Indeed.. I guess that explains why the system is a mess, economically, politically and socially!

No, it explains the importance of making improvements in the system. One thing we most definitely cannot do is rely on private institutions to educate our children because, as I have said, education should not depend on how much money your parents make.

Those not from the united states, need to do the sane thing and google the school you'll enroll your kids into.. your children are your investment.. people who expect lowly and mediocre things out of life usually get it..

On that we can definitely agree. The school system was a major factor in moving where I did in order to get my son the best education.

[جوري]

90% of the population is riffraff to you? Does going to a private school make you a better human being? I think the air must be thin in that ivory tower.

Where did I say that 90% of the population are riffraffs? Perhaps if you yourself attended a better school you wouldn't have such a difficult time tying points together?

you wrote and allow me to quote:

Then you lead an extremely sheltered and privileged life if you have never met anyone that went to public school. I highly recommend getting out more.

to which I replied with previous!

You are using a top ten private school in the nation as your private school benchmark? You keep comparing the top private schools in the nation with the worst public schools in the nation. The fact is that the reality lies in the middle. The vast majority of people go to neither a top ten private school nor an impoverished inner city school.

Again with the reading and comprehension impediment? I stated that even attending small parochial school would be better off than a public school and I am certainly not speaking merely of education although it is a large factor, but issues of safety, street vocabulary, teenage pregnancy etc.

Tell me the average annual income of the parents of the children of those schools, then try to convince anyone that money is not a factor.

Actually all one needs to do is browse their financial aid pages to see that at least 30% of their students can't afford the tuition and then the proper means of going about attaining enrollment otherwise!

Advising people to go to private schools instead of public schools is easy. Actually making that possible is a completely different story. It reminds me of the guy who said that if the Haitians were tired of poverty and corruption then they should just move to another country. Easy to say, hard to do. Let them eat cake, eh?

I don't see any comparison here, but then I guess if you are not an active part of the solution you can only assume the position of being a part of the problem.

I thought we were talking private vs public. If you are talking only about inner city schools then you should actually mention that next time.

private is always better than public and even more so in inner cities!

Like I said before, it depends on the public school and the parochial school, and it depends on the income of that family. Even small private schools can break the bank of those not already making a comfortable living.

Who cares what you say.. you go and put your kids in public school, I don't think anyone is stopping you!
this is aimed at a Muslim audience!
I have no expectations from non-Muslims and think they should indeed fill the world of their illegitimate kids, abuse of welfare and love of worthless banter!

No, it explains the importance of making improvements in the system. One thing we most definitely cannot do is rely on private institutions to educate our children because, as I have said, education should not depend on how much money your parents make.

Like I stated how you choose to educate your kids is your own business, this is for Muslims who wish to invest in their children. If not an excellent private school then an excellent parochial (Islamic school) you can do whatever you want with your kids, pass them BCP when they are 11, have them subjected to another student going postal, having them drop out or go off to war at 18, it is your prerogative but it isn't ours!

[Uthman]

Please discuss respectfully.

[titus]

Where did I say that 90% of the population are riffraffs?

You indicate that you only associate with people that went to private school, not with riffraff. Since 90% of this country went to public schools the logic is obvious.

Actually all one needs to do is browse their financial aid pages to see that at least 30% of their students can't afford the tuition and then the proper means of going about attaining enrollment otherwise!

Yes, they do this in order to make their diversity numbers look good. That still means that 70% of the students are there because their parents can afford an extremely exorbitant tuition. A tuition that nowhere near 70% of the population can afford.

I don't see any comparison here, but then I guess if you are not an active part of the solution you can only assume the position of being a part of the problem.

True, I am not part of the school board, but I do vote for them. I also completed half of my teachers certification before changing my career path. Since you are making this argument I assume that you are actively doing something to improve public education?

Or do have a solution other than "send your kids to private school?"

private is always better than public and even more so in inner cities!

That is a bold claim. So you believe that the best public school is not as good as the worst private school?

I find that statement ludicrous. You would be surprised at the excellent education you can get at some public schools, and the below average education you can get at some private schools.

[جوري]

You indicate that you only associate with people that went to private school, not with riffraff. Since 90% of this country went to public schools the logic is obvious.

I wrote that I don't know anyone who has attended public school, certainly doesn't mean I have had a sheltered life considering the many countries I have traveled to, perhaps it would do you some good to have a paradigm shift and think of it the other way around.. folks only attending public school living a very sheltered life and not exposed to much diversity at all!

Yes, they do this in order to make their diversity numbers look good. That still means that 70% of the students are there because their parents can afford an extremely exorbitant tuition. A tuition that nowhere near 70% of the population can afford.

So what? firstly you don't know the first thing about these schools .. I do having been to each and every one of them to decide which of them is the best and most serious and most rigorous and secondly it should give a chance for others to know that if they'd merely spend a little time with their kids educating them preparing them, that they'd have a good chance getting an excellent education without paying their entire salary.

Financial Aid

The Spence School has made a strong commitment through the financial aid program to reach out to students who show intellectual promise regardless of their economic situation. Financial aid allows enrollment of the best students across the socio-economic spectrum and helps create a more diverse student body. It makes for a teaching and learning experience that is much stronger.
Approximately 20 percent of our students receive financial aid. Grants are given on the basis of need, and each case receives individual consideration based on information provided by the parents and School and Student Services (SSS). Spence also makes available a monthly tuition payment plan for interested families. Financial aid applications are due by December

This is from the spence alone which I didn't think was the strongest in the lot.. others have even more and better opportunities. I am actually glad for this thread because I can show some Muslims here that they can send their daughters to all girl schools and receive excellent education which will enable them to go anywhere in the world and be anything they want!

True, I am not part of the school board, but I do vote for them. I also completed half of my teachers certification before changing my career path. Since you are making this argument I assume that you are actively doing something to improve public education?

No, but I do write a modest check every now and then to my old alma mater

Or do have a solution other than "send your kids to private school?"

Private schools or parochial schools all the way. I think that would be extremely apparent from my posts here!

That is a bold claim. So you believe that the best public school is not as good as the worst private school?

There are more odds to fight in a public school than private ones!

I find that statement ludicrous. You would be surprised at the excellent education you can get at some public schools, and the below average education you can get at some private schools.

whatever makes you comfortable is OK with me..

all the best

[Froggy]

Can anyone get a student loan?

[titus]

folks only attending public school living a very sheltered life and not exposed to much diversity at all!

Attending a school in which 70% of the parents are in the top 5% of income earners in the country is diversity? I don't think so.

Even though I had the, in your eyes, misfortune of attending public school I was an exchange student in New Zealand for a year (at a public school again), as well as scoring in the top 2% of the nation on the SAT, ACT and ASVAB, started a business in London and travelled fairly extensively. I am a great example of what public schools are capable of, and I attended a fairly average public school. I also did this without the benefit of parents that could afford private school.

So please go on about how sheltered us public school people are, but the fact is that going to school with wealthy students does not give a realistic view of the reality of the country. Just the fact that you don't know anyone that went to public schools is a sign of that isolation. What it does do, though, is create an elitist attitude.

I am actually glad for this thread because I can show some Muslims here that they can send their daughters to all girl schools and receive excellent education which will enable them to go anywhere in the world and be anything they want!

Sounds great, but answer me this: If 100 Muslim parents with low income tried to get their daughters into Spence, how many would probably make it in? Then what do you do with the other 98 or 99 daughters?

Private schools or parochial schools all the way. I think that would be extremely apparent from my posts here!

'

Yes it is. It is also unrealistic, and it also ignores the government of any democracies responsibility to educate its population.

Everyone deserves a good education, and the solution we should be striving for is not to just give a good education to those who attend private schools and ignore the rest of the riffraff, but to give a good education to everyone.

[titus]

Can anyone get a student loan?

Some parents can get loans or grants.

The top ten schools, though, that Skye keeps referring to as the answer are very limited in their availability and even with loans many more kids will be rejected than accepted.

Even if the parents get the loans, for four years of school you are looking at roughly $100,000. That's enough money to buy a small house. Most parents would take 20 or 30 years to pay that off.

[Froggy]

I read about Michell Bissuti a few days ago, how here student loan has grown to over half a million us dollars and how shell be paying it back till shes 60.
http://blogs.wsj.com/juggle/2010/02/...t-loan-effect/
Here's a different article about the same person.
Student loans seem to be a particularly heavy burden for medical students.

[جوري]

Attending a school in which 70% of the parents are in the top 5% of income earners in the country is diversity? I don't think so.

You seem to have an axe to grind with folks you deem are financially better off than you.. I suggest you work on that.. you come across as resentful and it is unpleasant!

Even though I had the, in your eyes, misfortune of attending public school I was an exchange student in New Zealand for a year (at a public school again), as well as scoring in the top 2% of the nation on the SAT, ACT and ASVAB, started a business in London and travelled fairly extensively. I am a great example of what public schools are capable of, and I attended a fairly average public school. I also did this without the benefit of parents that could afford private school.

and I did write on the previous page if you bothered at all to read:

I think you need multiple factors to excel.. I am with you that if your drive is great you can overcome obstacles.. so far we have only had two homeless girls into Harvard.. but how many homeless for instance do you know even complete schools...

It is a multi-faceted issue. You can't have one factor and be successful unless you are extremely gifted in that regard...

No one expects much out of these kids and they in return don't give much.. a vicious cycle .. low expectations beget low achievers beget low socioeconomic conditions beget multiple bad things.. hence the prophet Muhammed PBUH used to seek refuge from these things..
Ignorance, poverty, stinginess .. surely they are the worst conditions and beget the worst...

:w:

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1293558

btw, I don't need your resume.. I really couldn't careless what a success you made of yourself in the public school system.. odds are against folks who attend public schools!

So please go on about how sheltered us public school people are, but the fact is that going to school with wealthy students does not give a realistic view of the reality of the country. Just the fact that you don't know anyone that went to public schools is a sign of that isolation. What it does do, though, is create an elitist attitude.

It is realistic that folks drop out it is true, it is also realistic that teenage pregnancy is the highest especially amongst people from low socioeconomic conditions and no proper moral upbringing it it true, it is true that you have to go through a metal detector before going to class.. true that they are likely to end up exactly like their parents and a whole bunch of others things.. what is your point? is this the sort of reality Muslims want for their kids? I don't think so.. you can subject your kids to whatever realism.. I am not begrudging you a public education and if 'street smarts' and being a ragtage denotes not being sheltered then you can keep your 'worldly experience'

Sounds great, but answer me this: If 100 Muslim parents with low income tried to get their daughters into Spence, how many would probably make it in? Then what do you do with the other 98 or 99 daughters?

Spence isn't the only school of its kind and I have previously stated not even the best (in my humble opinion) of the lot.. you take entrance exams and have interviews, that is a major factor on whether or not your young lady is accepted. Now, as stated you don't need a top ten school.. any number of private schools or parochial schools are better than the abomination that is the public education system!
I have known hundreds of Muslim girls.. none of them from public schools.. what can I say.. you are neither acquainted with the private school system nor how Muslims bring up their girls or boys!

'

Yes it is. It is also unrealistic, and it also ignores the government of any democracies responsibility to educate its population.

That is right.. it is unrealistic for some folks... people who never try usually get no where!

Everyone deserves a good education, and the solution we should be striving for is not to just give a good education to those who attend private schools and ignore the rest of the riffraff, but to give a good education to everyone.

While you work on that, the rest of us will have a more realistic view of life and the world as we know it!

good luck with all of that

[جوري]

Can anyone get a student loan?

There are entrance exams you have to take, if you score very well above the 95% percentile and do well on your interviews you have a very good chance of entrance with financial aid..

of course you must be discussing your kids? aren't you in med school already?

peace

[Froggy]

There are entrance exams you have to take, if you score very well above the 95% percentile and do well on your interviews you have a very good chance of entrance with financial aid..

of course you must be discussing your kids? aren't you in med school already?

peace

I'm not American, we have universal education here.

[جوري]

I'm not American, we have universal education here.

In my opinion America is doing very poorly in terms of public education.. I think a public school in a beaten up country like Egypt is superior to anything you can receive in schools in the U.S..
Most of the doctors I have encountered are from abroad and I like to think that medicine is one of the very few areas where racism and hatred hasn't sullied.. and doctors make up 1% of the population anyway.. but that how much of that 1% are natives? It would be interesting to do a formal survey because for the most part I see the majority are Asians, far eastern, middle eastern, Europe (small percentage I assume because medicine is good anyway in their countries that they don't feel the need to travel) and africans.. pure WASP americans are diminutive in numbers..

Now I don't know if it is because the education here is harrowing in college with such a disparity to what kids receive in school making them very ill equipped for the instated course material in college, or because the tuition is phenomenal, or because the life style is stressful, prohibitive, exhaustive in exams endless.. but by comparison (and it should remain unless obama screws everyone over) one of the best health-care systems in the world in my opinion.


peace

[Froggy]

In my opinion America is doing very poorly in terms of public education.. I think a public school in a beaten up country like Egypt is superior to anything you can receive in schools in the U.S..
Most of the doctors I have encountered are from abroad and I like to think that medicine is one of the very few areas where racism and hatred hasn't sullied.. and doctors make up 1% of the population anyway.. but that how much of that 1% are natives? It would be interesting to do a formal survey because for the most part I see the majority are Asians, far eastern, middle eastern, Europe (small percentage I assume because medicine is good anyway in their countries that they don't feel the need to travel) and africans.. pure WASP americans are diminutive in numbers..

Now I don't know if it is because the education here is harrowing in college with such a disparity to what kids receive in school making them very ill equipped for the instated course material in college, or because the tuition is phenomenal, or because the life style is stressful, prohibitive, exhaustive in exams endless.. but by comparison (and it should remain unless obama screws everyone over) one of the best health-care systems in the world in my opinion.


peace

It definitely is the best health care system in the world, so is private education, especially in medicine, a classmate and a friend of mine got admitted to Harvard med school.
The problem is, for a European mind at least, that despite its being the best in the world, it is not afforded to the entire population equally. You will receieve the best healthcare in America provided you have a good insurance or enough money to pay for surgery. The same with education, except that you can get a loan there, which I don't think you can for healthcare, can you?
I'm sure 50 of America's best schools and 50 of its best hospitals have greater budget than anywhere else in the world, mainly to tuitions and private endowments.

[coddles76]

Not only is the economy and Education system failing, the whole of society in America is failing and is evident with the continuous Shooting rampages, High Suicide rates and injustice. People have lost hope, and the sense of a happy life due to it's culture and lack of faith. As soon as they start showing a more sense of humanity instead of Going around the world, dropping bombs, killing innocent people,stealing peoples land and resources, trying to tell other soverign nations what to do, then you might see Allah SWT lift the wrath from upon them.

[Froggy]

Not only is the economy and Education system failing, the whole of society in America is failing and is evident with the continuous Shooting rampages, High Suicide rates and injustice. People have lost hope, and the sense of a happy life due to it's culture and lack of faith. As soon as they start showing a more sense of humanity instead of Going around the world, dropping bombs, killing innocent people,stealing peoples land and resources, trying to tell other soverign nations what to do, then you might see Allah SWT lift the wrath from upon them.

One of the most colorful and presumably happiest eras the American people was during the Vietnam war.

[جوري]

It definitely is the best health care system in the world, so is private education, especially in medicine, a classmate and a friend of mine got admitted to Harvard med school.
The problem is, for a European mind at least, that despite its being the best in the world, it is not afforded to the entire population equally. You will receieve the best healthcare in America provided you have a good insurance or enough money to pay for surgery. The same with education, except that you can get a loan there, which I don't think you can for healthcare, can you?
I'm sure 50 of America's best schools and 50 of its best hospitals have greater budget than anywhere else in the world, mainly to tuitions and private endowments.

Greetings,

I agree that the middle class get screwed out of receiving proper health-care the poor with medicaid and the elderly with medicare and the rich with their private insurance get good treatment while many do without.. and many people including medical students fall into that.. I ended up with such phenomenal bills the times I had to go to the hospital and many times I had to go without treatment. Still I think finding a program with the hospital or even a bad type insurance is better than what Obama is proposing.. I like the idea of universal healthcare but really don't know where the cuts will be made in his 1000 page proposal..


peace

[titus]

You seem to have an a to grind with folks you deem are financially better off than you.. I suggest you work on that.. you come across as resentful and it is unpleasant!

Not at all. I respect most of them. Rarely have I met a wealthy person, and I have worked with many, who was not intelligent and hard working.

I don't believe, though, that because they are rich that their children inherently deserve a better education than my children. Nor do I believe the answer to the American education system is to have everyone go to private schools where the main factor in the quality of education would be the income of your parents.

If you want to institute that system then you might as well bring back titles of nobility too.

btw, I don't need your resume.. I really couldn't careless what a success you made of yourself in the public school system.. odds are against folks who attend public schools!

How are the odds against those who go to public schools? Do you want the resumes of the many successful friends I went to high school with? Do you want the vice president of Chase Banks, or the television director who works for HBO and NBC? Maybe the one who has his own company in Silicon Valley? And that is just a few from my graduating class in a school in the suburbs of Houston.

The facts prove your opinion wrong. The only thing holding most public school graduates back are themselves and their parents. That is not to say that there cannot be improvements made in the system.

It is realistic that folks drop out it is true, it is also realistic that teenage pregnancy is the highest especially amongst people from low socioeconomic conditions and no proper moral upbringing it it true, it is true that you have to go through a metal detector before going to class.. true that they are likely to end up exactly like their parents and a whole bunch of others things.. what is your point?

You are doing two things wrong here. For one you are generalizing the minority as the majority, and for two you are confusing cause and effect.

The facts are that most teenagers do not get pregnant, most do not drop out (in Texas I believe the numbers are less than 3%), and I do not know any schools locally that have the students go through metal detectors. You are making broad generalizations based on the minority, and you should know the fallacy in that.

Don't get your information about what public schools are like from movies like "Dangerous Minds" and "Lean on Me".

Don't confuse the cause and effect here either. Many of the children that graduate from private school and succeed would also succeed if they graduated from public schools. It was not the schools that made them successful, but the parents that put them into those schools. The same goes with any child. I know my child will be as successful as I prepare him to be, no matter what school he attends. Parents that don't care most likely aren't going to teach their children to care, and they certainly won't care enough to send them to private schools.

Sure, the drop out rates and pregnancies are less at private schools, but how much of that has to do with the schools and how much with the parents? After all, private school students still drop out, get pregnant and violence is still happens.

While you work on that, the rest of us will have a more realistic view of life and the world as we know it!

A good education for everyone is not unrealistic. As you said, those that don't try don't accomplish anything.

I think a public school in a beaten up country like Egypt is superior to anything you can receive in schools in the U.S..

What do you base this on? The US spends a much higher proportion of their GDP on public education that Egypt does (although that admittedly is not the major indicator of quality).

I ask this as you have admitted to not knowing anyone that has attended a public school.

Not only is the economy and Education system failing, the whole of society in America is failing and is evident with the continuous Shooting rampages, High Suicide rates and injustice. People have lost hope, and the sense of a happy life due to it's culture and lack of faith.

If you look at the numbers the levels of crime have been declining for the past 17 years. The economy always goes through cycles (remember 1987 anyone? Remember the Bush recession and no new taxes?). I remember it being much much worse in the late 70's than it is now and that was followed by a decade of great optimism. Things are not as bleak as you would think.

[جوري]

Not at all. I respect most of them. Rarely have I met a wealthy person, and I have worked with many, who was not intelligent and hard working.

subjective and irrelevant!

I don't believe, though, that because they are rich that their children inherently deserve a better education than my children. Nor do I believe the answer to the American education system is to have everyone go to private schools where the main factor in the quality of education would be the income of your parents.

It isn't your call to say where folks should send their kids.. just because you feel your kids are suited for a public education doesn't mean folks should share your views.. further, I'd say there was no equality if it were an exclusive club to folks of certain status quo.. It isn't and I have shown that!

If you want to institute that system then you might as well bring back titles of nobility too.

I don't see what a good education has to do with titles and nobility.. a good education is the only thing folks can't strip you of and there is no substitute for it no matter how petty your attempts..

How are the odds against those who go to public schools? Do you want the resumes of the many successful friends I went to high school with? Do you want the vice president of Chase Banks, or the television director who works for HBO and NBC? Maybe the one who has his own company in Silicon Valley? And that is just a few from my graduating class in a school in the suburbs of Houston.

I told you, your subjective views and circle of friends are irrelevant .. I am glad it is working out for you, you should be voicing these concerns about the public education system to them not on an Islamic forum!

The facts prove your opinion wrong. The only thing holding most public school graduates back are themselves and their parents. That is not to say that there cannot be improvements made in the system.

You haven't shown me any facts.. you speak of your resume and your alleged successful friends, as far as I am concerned you can be trailer park trash with a computer.. the net does afford one a certain level of anonymity.. Today you are a member of NASA and tomorrow a neurosurgeon at John's Hopkins...

You are doing two things wrong here. For one you are generalizing the minority as the majority, and for two you are confusing cause and effect.

No.. what I am doing here is urging folks to invest in their kids future by providing them the proper channels early on!

The facts are that most teenagers do not get pregnant, most do not drop out (in Texas I believe the numbers are less than 3%), and I do not know any schools locally that have the students go through metal detectors. You are making broad generalizations based on the minority, and you should know the fallacy in that.

CBS) A report released Tuesday on teenage pregnancy brought troubling news. After a long decline, teenage pregnancies are back on the rise. CBS News correspondent Cynthia Bowers has more.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6144496.shtml

High School Dropout Crisis Threatens U.S. Economic Growth and Competiveness, Witnesses Tell House Panel

Nationwide, 7,000 students drop out every day and only about 70 percent of students graduate from high school with a regular high school diploma. Two thousand high schools in the U.S. produce more than half of all dropouts and a recent study suggests that in the 50 largest cities, only 53 percent of students graduate on time

http://edlabor.house.gov/newsroom/20...isis-thr.shtml

time and again facts prove you and your circle of friends wrong, so perhaps you can drop your pearls on willing ears? I don't even know why my desire to get Muslims the best education possible irks you so?
if you are proud of your and your kids public school education and see this moving in the right direction then honestly one post would have sufficed you!

Don't get your information about what public schools are like from movies like "Dangerous Minds" and "Lean on Me".

The above Gov. sources!
I don't have time to watch movies so I have no idea what you are talking about even.

Don't confuse the cause and effect here either. Many of the children that graduate from private school and succeed would also succeed if they graduated from public schools. It was not the schools that made them successful, but the parents that put them into those schools. The same goes with any child. I know my child will be as successful as I prepare him to be, no matter what school he attends. Parents that don't care most likely aren't going to teach their children to care, and they certainly won't care enough to send them to private schools.

I have stated in my earlier post that more than one factor goes into success.. one of them being providing the best possible education. Unfortunately the best possible education isn't attained in public schools!

Sure, the drop out rates and pregnancies are less at private schools, but how much of that has to do with the schools and how much with the parents? After all, private school students still drop out, get pregnant and violence is still happens.

Haven't seen one case in the private school I attended.. and frankly that later part has to do with religious education, which again another little morsel the west would like to do without!

A good education for everyone is not unrealistic. As you said, those that don't try don't accomplish anything.

Indeed.. It is the job of the parent to provide at least one proper mean although I personally think they should provide every mean!

What do you base this on? The US spends a much higher proportion of their GDP on public education that Egypt does (although that admittedly is not the major indicator of quality).

While the U.S. spent the most in absolute dollars, it ranked tenth in education spending as a percent of GDP at 4.8 percent. Saudi Arabia ranked first investing 9.5 percent of GDP in education. The top five include Norway, Malaysia, France and South Africa. All five countries spent in excess of 5 percent of GDP on education. The United Arab Emirates came in 29th at 1.9 percent of GDP.

http://www.oclc.org/reports/escan/ec...ryspending.htm

Those who come to the U.S from abroad always fare better than the natives:

Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.

Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.

they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.




Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says
Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002

(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)

WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.

They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.

The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.

The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/p...ab_America.pdf
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/mideastcoverage.html

I ask this as you have admitted to not knowing anyone that has attended a public school.

see previous replies!

If you look at the numbers the levels of crime have been declining for the past 17 years. The economy always goes through cycles (remember 1987 anyone? Remember the Bush recession and no new taxes?). I remember it being much much worse in the late 70's than it is now and that was followed by a decade of great optimism. Things are not as bleak as you would think.

You must live in an alternate universe and frankly I am happy for you.. I am happy things are bright.. again, I remind you, I am aiming this at Muslims.. to invest in their kids education by all means possible.. you and your friends are free to the public education system and I wish you the best of luck with that..

[titus]

I don't have time to watch movies so I have no idea what you are talking about even.

Yet you have hours and hours to post on this forum every day? You have even commented on movies you have watched (remember how you liked the Da Vinci code except for Tom Hanks hair?) The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

You haven't shown me any facts.. you speak of your resume and your alleged successful friends, as far as I am concerned you can be trailer park trash with a computer.. the net does afford one a certain level of anonymity.. Today you are a member of NASA and tomorrow a neurosurgeon at John's Hopkins...

Yes, that is true. It is also true that you could be 50 year old child molestor on house arrest who is really good at Google. You get upset when I bring my personal experiences into a discussion, yet have no problem telling us yours. Please be consistent on this, as this is the second time you have gotten upset when I brought up my "resume" on a thread, yet you feel free to share yours.

Believe me, I have no desire nor need to lie to you. If you want to believe I am a liar and that I made up stories about my friends then please feel free to Google people who went to public schools and were extremely successful. I know you are good at Googling. Check out Warren Buffett, Bill Clinton, Steven Spielberg and Oprah Winfrey among others. I think public schools prepared them quite well.

time and again facts prove you and your circle of friends wrong, so perhaps you can drop your pearls on willing ears? I don't even know why my desire to get Muslims the best education possible irks you so?

None of the facts you copied and pasted contradicts what I wrote. Nice try though.

Your desire for Muslims to get the best education does not irk me at all. Another nice try at putting words in my mouth. I have not even mentioned religion once on this thread, nor have I even insinuated it.

If you want to send your child to a private school, Islamic or otherwise, I have no issue with that. I fully support it in fact. Home school them if you want. I support that too. What I don't want to see, though, is for private schools to become the only way to get a good education. Thankfully, regardless of what you believe, that is not the case currently and there are very good public schools available in this country.

Reality is not as easy as you want to portray it. Not everyone that wants a good education for their child can afford a private school, and very very few can afford the one that you claim to have received. There has to be an alternative. So the elitist attitude of "if you love your child then you will send them to a private school" is completely out of touch with the economic realities of this country right now. So is the opposite attitude of "if your child goes to public school then they will not be successful and will drop out/get pregnant/shoot everyone". It's simply ridiculous.

[جوري]

Yet you have hours and hours to post on this forum every day? You have even commented on movies you have watched (remember how you liked the Da Vinci code except for Tom Hanks hair?) The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I don't spend hours and hours on the forum.. don't flatter yourself as it takes me less than 5 minutes to refute you.. mediocrity breeds less than a a minute reply.. but I love the fact that you spend hours and hours looking for an old post I had written on the 'Da Vinci code' which I also read as a book btw to make a comment that cements the fact that you love projecting so much!
be that as it may, whatever I have posted were from governmental websites not a movie that you feel misrepresents you!

Yes, that is true. It is also true that you could be 50 year old child molestor on house arrest who is really good at Google. You get upset when I bring my personal experiences into a discussion, yet have no problem telling us yours. Please be consistent on this, as this is the second time you have gotten upset when I brought up my "resume" on a thread, yet you feel free to share yours.

I don't know who you are and frankly couldn't careless.. you are the one studding every other post with your alleged achievements (which is yet to echo in any of your writing btw) If I am a 50 year old child molester, it is amazing my desire to have the very best for Muslims.. perhaps then they can cast aside my vices for good advise.. what about you? sitting here truly for hours to have a tit for tat with everyone and still coming up so empty and giving others deplorable insights as per your very subjective observations of the world around you a consequence of low expectations I presume!

Believe me, I have no desire nor need to lie to you. If you want to believe I am a liar and that I made up stories about my friends then please feel free to Google people who went to public schools and were extremely successful. I know you are good at Googling. Check out Warren Buffett, Bill Clinton, Steven Spielberg and Oprah Winfrey among others. I think public schools prepared them quite well.

Why all the desperate pleas to be believed? .. it is so petty! I have already covered that what you and your friends and celebrity contact have done or achieved are inconsequential and matter not to me or the topic,.. this isn't about you.. it is about the failing public school system in the U.S and what Muslims should do to safeguard their kids in the west and ensure that they have an excellent education!
Oprah winfrey doesn't represent the average black woman or hispanic woman or even white woman for your inane analogies to count for anything!

None of the facts you copied and pasted contradicts what I wrote. Nice try though.

Really, teenage pregnancy on the rise and high school dropouts at an all time high doesn't contradict the crap you wrote-- perhaps another consequence of sub-optimal upbringing and education!

Your desire for Muslims to get the best education does not irk me at all. Another nice try at putting words in my mouth. I have not even mentioned religion once on this thread, nor have I even insinuated it.

Then what business have you commenting here on the perks of public education?

If you want to send your child to a private school, Islamic or otherwise, I have no issue with that. I fully support it in fact. Home school them if you want. I support that too. What I don't want to see, though, is for private schools to become the only way to get a good education. Thankfully, regardless of what you believe, that is not the case currently and there are very good public schools available in this country.

Again, how does your comment or observation add weightiness to anything? Who cares how you feel on the matter.. I am at a loss as to why you insinuate yourself in topics that don't concern you only to make us painfully aware of your presence and not add a smidgen of common sense!

Reality is not as easy as you want to portray it. Not everyone that wants a good education for their child can afford a private school, and very very few can afford the one that you claim to have received. There has to be an alternative. So the elitist attitude of "if you love your child then you will send them to a private school" is completely out of touch with the economic realities of this country right now. So is the opposite attitude of "if your child goes to public school then they will not be successful and will drop out/get pregnant/shoot everyone". It's simply ridiculous.

Again, if you want to send your kids to some cesspool so you can breed more of your ignorance for generations be my guest.. I have already written concisely what folks who care for their kids' education should do.. your defeatist attitude and your poor economy which is a direct result of your country's greed and hatred of others shall shortly insha'Allah also reflect on the turds you sent overseas to bomb civilians.. however, your bad economy doesn't and shouldn't reflect on Muslims and where they choose to send their kids for an education..
Also I have never said that the public education system only breeds pregnant/ignorant/dropouts.. go back again to page one and try to read slowly taking all in before getting that nervous tick to get another worthless comment down!

all the best!

[sister herb]

:sl:

I have followed this discussion from last evening and I really hope that the public education in USA (where I am not from) would be similar than in my country where every children, just same what is they social status, they parents religion or political or economical situation will study together in public schools and anyone doesn´t need to pay for getting education as we haven´t private schools at all as like studing in any university is free without payments too. Maybe at the some day in USA also...

What makes me feel shame is this continual disrespect against non-muslim member of this discussion.

:embarrass

[Froggy]

America spends to much on military and to little on education.
Even 4 billion a year given to a perfectly self sustainable state of Israel would be better spent fr schools.
Now, I know things aren't that simple.

[جوري]

America spends to much on military and to little on education.
Even 4 billion a year given to a perfectly self sustainable state of Israel would be better spent fr schools.
Now, I know things aren't that simple.

Why when they can just simply do away with the 12th grade and send emancipated minors to war earlier and earlier?!
Actually things really are that simple!

all the best

[titus]

Really, teenage pregnancy on the rise and high school dropouts at an all time high doesn't contradict the crap you wrote-- perhaps another consequence of sub-optimal upbringing and education!

I said that the dropouts and teen pregnancies were the minority of students. Nothing you posted has refuted that.

Your desire for Muslims to get the best education does not irk me at all. Another nice try at putting words in my mouth. I have not even mentioned religion once on this thread, nor have I even insinuated it.

Then what business have you commenting here on the perks of public education?

Because the person that started this topic did not mention religion, simply the education system. You are the only one I see injecting religion into it.

Who cares how you feel on the matter..

You claimed that Muslims getting a good education irked me. I was simply refuting that baseless allegation.

Then what business have you commenting here on the perks of public education?

As the only one of us two to have had a public education I believe I have every business to comment on it. Since you have admitted that you don't even know anyone that went to public schools you must be getting your information third hand at best. I got mine first hand, and was able to name just a few friends of mine who became very successful with their public education.

Again, while public education is not perfect it is not a cesspool or an abomination as you might have people believe.

I have followed this discussion from last evening and I really hope that the public education in USA (where I am not from) would be similar than in my country where every children, just same what is they social status, they parents religion or political or economical situation will study together in public schools and anyone doesn´t need to pay for getting education as we haven´t private schools at all as like studing in any university is free without payments too.

For the most part that is the way it is in the United States. As I said before about 90% of students in the USA attend public schools in which the classes you are in depend on your ability, not on your social status, and you do not pay.

University is different. Even the state run universities are not free, and not the cheapest. I had to work my way through university and took a lot longer to graduate because of it. While I don't necessarily feel that university should be free, I do believe that states should invest more money in them in order to lower tuitions for those attending without adversely affecting the quality of education.

[جوري]

I said that the dropouts and teen pregnancies were the minority of students. Nothing you posted has refuted that.

Even if it were a 'minority of students' which it isn't.. it is quite substantial, they are concentrated in the public school system!
I challenge you to do a formal survey of any of the schools I mention to your preferred style learning and let's see head to head how they fare all the way to college!

Because the person that started this topic did not mention religion, simply the education system. You are the only one I see injecting religion into it.

Everything here is under the umbrella of Islam.. it is an Islamic forum..

You claimed that Muslims getting a good education irked me. I was simply refuting that baseless allegation.

Actually you seem to confirm it with each subsequent post.. and I can tell you really hate not having the last word!

As the only one of us two to have had a public education I believe I have every business to comment on it. Since you have admitted that you don't even know anyone that went to public schools you must be getting your information third hand at best. I got mine first hand, and was able to name just a few friends of mine who became very successful with their public education.

Your opinion is one man's subjective view, mine is based on Govt. reports and the evening news!
this whole topic is highlighting another failure which is the desire to make the 12th grade optional..

Again, while public education is not perfect it is not a cesspool or an abomination as you might have people believe.

There is no point for folks here to wait and find out the hard way..as the Arabic adage goes.. if a door open has a potential to bring you torrential storms then shut it!

For the most part that is the way it is in the United States. As I said before about 90% of students in the USA attend public schools in which the classes you are in depend on your ability, not on your social status, and you do not pay.

This is relevant how? I have already stated and repeatedly, to get an excellent education at a top school, all you need to do is show potential.
You need to get over the social status thing, because it really does nothing for me personally!

University is different. Even the state run universities are not free, and not the cheapest. I had to work my way through university and took a lot longer to graduate because of it. While I don't necessarily feel that university should be free, I do believe that states should invest more money in them in order to lower tuitions for those attending without adversely affecting the quality of education.

Again with your life and your woes.. pls try to stick to the topic at hand... although I personally think everything that needed to be covered was covered on page one.. though what is pertinent to top schools is as well universities .. certainly students who show potential can have financial aids and scholarships..
I think Muslims however should institute a program to help those seeking a higher education so that no one would fall into the pits of interests that has so ensnared westerners for the rest of their miserable lives!

Insha'Allah one day such a program will come to be..

all the best

[sister herb]

Just stop they useless fighting there!

:statisfie

Have been funny to read it.

[CosmicPathos]

You are the company you keep and I certainly prefer to stay away from riffraff.. as for who I deal with, surely in my practice I have seen the scum of the earth, but I am better prepared in dealing with them above weapons and four letter words!

I'd like to see some realistic statics head to head of where kids who attend public school vs. private school end up after receiving their high school diploma if they should reach that level at all in a public school.

It isn't as assumption, it is a fact!
When I see a school with 90% of its girls heading off to ivy leagues compared to 4 out of ten drop outs, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that something is amiss from public education!
In fact you don't have to be wealthy to attend a private school!

I am aware of the spence tuition, I'd not have mentioned If I had no knowledge of it.. however again see my previous response. There are many means of attending a superior private school without paying out your entire salary.. question is, do you wish to invest in your kids education?

See previous two responses.. plus I am not talking Texas.. I am talking inner city schools compared to Private schools!
I don't think you have done remote home work on the matter to impart with any sort of wisdom!

and hence I stated even if you can't find means to put your kids in a top ten school then even a small parochial school is better off than a public one.. I don't even know if you are arguing because you love to argue so much or because you have slight knowledge on the subject.


Indeed.. I guess that explains why the system is a mess, economically, politically and socially!
You do that, you run for office and instate back the twelfth grade they are willing to make into an 'optional!'

Those not from the united states, need to do the sane thing and google the school you'll enroll your kids into.. your children are your investment.. people who expect lowly and mediocre things out of life usually get it..

:sl:

I am not much knowledgeable about US schooling system. Just wanted to say that before I begin.

Sister, is not it possible that the high drop out rate of public schools is because unintelligent people attend the school since it is free? On the other hand the low drop-out rate of private schools can be explained away if only those parents and students attend them who are studious and conscious of their education and investment of $35k?
:wa:

[جوري]

:sl:

I am not much knowledgeable about US schooling system. Just wanted to say that before I begin.

Sister, is not it possible that the high drop out rate of public schools is because unintelligent people attend the school since it is free? On the other hand the low drop-out rate of private schools can be explained away if only those parents and students attend them who are studious and conscious of their education and investment of $35k?
:wa:

:sl:
of course it is more than factor.. I did say as much in my very first posts.. I believe having a positive environment at home, investing in good school, good activities, good friends, a positive Islamic environment all contribute to shaping model individuals..


:w:

[titus]

mad_scientist,

That is exactly the point I made earlier when I was talking about the confusion of cause and effect.

The public schools are not the cause of the pregnancies and drop outs, nor are private schools themselves the major factors in their low rates. I am glad to see that you don't get insulted for making that same point though. ;D

Even if it were a 'minority of students' which it isn't.. it is quite substantial, they are concentrated in the public school system

Not a minority of students? Are you actually claiming that the majority of public school students get pregnant and/or drop out? We already know that 90% of kids go to public schools, therefore you claim that pretty much half of the US 18 year olds are either pregnant or dropped out of school (or both)?

I would be very interested to see your data to back up that absurd claim.

There is no point for folks here to wait and find out the hard way..as the Arabic adage goes.. if a door open has a potential to bring you torrential storms then shut it!

I think a more proper adage would be "do not throw the baby out with the bathwater."

Yes, the public school system does need improvements, that does not mean that the system needs to be scrapped and that we should go to a system in which every child is sent to a private school.

This is relevant how? I have already stated and repeatedly, to get an excellent education at a top school, all you need to do is show potential.

Not really. While it is possible to get financial aide to a top school, only an extremely small minority of those that show potential actually have the chance make it in. The top schools limit the number of students they allow in. This leaves the majority of those that "show potential" with few options.

The majority are going to be selected for their financial ability, the minority are selected for their academic ability. I believe at Spence it was only 30% that were on financial aid, correct?

Public schools have begun addressing these concerns by creating magnet schools. The admission to many of these public schools is based on merit. In other words, to those that show potential (and without having to pay $24,000 a year).

though what is pertinent to top schools is as well universities .. certainly students who show potential can have financial aids and scholarships..

Again, though, those scholarships are limited in number. Very few of those that apply for scholarships get anything close to a full ride through college. The majority still have to pay for most of the costs associated with university.

I think Muslims however should institute a program to help those seeking a higher education so that no one would fall into the pits of interests that has so ensnared westerners for the rest of their miserable lives!

Are you speaking of starting or donating to a scholarship for Muslims? That would be a great idea. Many exist already. I did a quick search and found the Fadel Educational Foundation as an example. The site also has links to other Muslim oriented scholarships.

Or did you have some other idea in mind, like a Muslim only university in the USA?

[جوري]

mad_scientist,

That is exactly the point I made earlier when I was talking about the confusion of cause and effect.

The public schools are not the cause of the pregnancies and drop outs, nor are private schools themselves the major factors in their low rates. I am glad to see that you don't get insulted for making that same point though. ;D

To which I specifically replied:

Also I have never said that the public education system only breeds pregnant/ignorant/dropouts.. go back again to page one and try to read slowly taking all in before getting that nervous tick to get another worthless comment down!

all the best!

more than once.. the conclusion we can draw here is that the public education system is so ailing and breeds folks like you, where simple written words don't cross the synapse!

Not a minority of students? Are you actually claiming that the majority of public school students get pregnant and/or drop out? We already know that 90% of kids go to public schools, therefore you claim that pretty much half of the US 18 year olds are either pregnant or dropped out of school (or both)?

See above and try to read.. I get tired of repeating myself, simply because you have a non-point, and in desperate need for attention!

I would be very interested to see your data to back up that absurd claim.

I am asking you to provide us data head to head with schools I mentioned to see how they compare turning my request around doesn't exempt you from doing homework!

I think a more proper adage would be "do not throw the baby out with the bathwater."

No relevance as usual!

Yes, the public school system does need improvements, that does not mean that the system needs to be scrapped and that we should go to a system in which every child is sent to a private school.

I never said it should be scrapped, I think it is appropriate for certain people!

Not really. While it is possible to get financial aide to a top school, only an extremely small minority of those that show potential actually have the chance make it in. The top schools limit the number of students they allow in. This leaves the majority of those that "show potential" with few options.

and hence I stated any small private or parochial would still be better than a public school, from the lowest common denominator the 12th grade won't be optional!

The majority are going to be selected for their financial ability, the minority are selected for their academic ability. I believe at Spence it was only 30% that were on financial aid, correct?

What is your point?

Public schools have begun addressing these concerns by creating magnet schools. The admission to many of these public schools is based on merit. In other words, to those that show potential (and without having to pay $24,000 a year).

That is good.. you chance it, as stated before my concerns here don't address the average american kid!

Again, though, those scholarships are limited in number. Very few of those that apply for scholarships get anything close to a full ride through college. The majority still have to pay for most of the costs associated with university.

Can't put a price on good education!

Are you speaking of starting or donating to a scholarship for Muslims? That would be a great idea. Many exist already. I did a quick search and found the Fadel Educational Foundation as an example. The site also has links to other Muslim oriented scholarships.

Excellent!

Or did you have some other idea in mind, like a Muslim only university in the USA?

No-- not a Muslim only university, but the ability for Muslims seeking high education to do so without usury!


all the best

[titus]

See above and try to read.. I get tired of repeating myself, simply because you have a non-point, and in desperate need for attention!

I don't see anything you wrote that shows that over half of American public school children are either dropouts or pregnant. Please refresh my poorly educated memory.

I am asking you to provide us data head to head with schools I mentioned to see how they compare turning my request around doesn't exempt you from doing homework!

Chicago of Illinois Study

Overall, the study demonstrates that demographic differences between
students in public and private schools more than account for the relatively high raw scores of
private schools. Indeed, after controlling for these differences, the presumably advantageous
“private school effect” disappears, and even reverses in most cases.

This finding is nothing new
— private school students in the United States have typically scored higher than public school
students on standardized tests, confirming the perception among the US public and policymakers
that private schools are inherently more effective than public schools.
However, the real question for researchers and policymakers is whether differences in test
scores between various school types — public schools, charter schools, or Catholic and other
private schools — are primarily due to differences in the student populations served by these
different sectors. Earlier research on school sector effects indicated that private schools score
higher even after adjusting for the fact that these schools tend to serve students with fewer “risk”
factors. And yet, a few more recent studies have found instances where, after employing
statistical controls to account for the differences in student populations, achievement in public
schools has been equal to or, in some cases, higher than those of private schools (as described
below).

US Dept of Education Statistics

Shows that a majority of US students are going to college after graduation, and the majority of those are graduating within 6 years.

Small study in Washington DC

Each study investigated whether there was a difference in the rankings of the colleges and universities that enrolled Lafayette graduates who had attended public high schools versus those who attended private high schools. The results show that there is no significant difference in the rankings of colleges and universities where students were enrolled based on public versus private high school attendance.

Slightly off topic, but amusing study

For our study, we hypothesized that private high school students would be more successful in college, due to more moderate alcohol consumption levels and more well developed study habits...... However, we were able to conclude that students who attended private high schools drink more in college (t = .019, p<.05) than those who attended public high schools.

Basically, most of the data will show that private school students performed better than public school students. The question, though, is "is it because of the schools or the students?".

Private schools can reject students based on performance or attitude, while public schools cannot. That alone skews the numbers greatly.

Think about it. It's like being in the gym where you have two teams and two team captains. In this case, though, one team captain gets to pick his entire team while the other team captain gets the leftovers

Now tell me, when the first team plays the second team and wins, is it because the first guy is a better team captain? Of course not.

If I start a private school and have admission tests, you bet I'm going to select some students that perform well so that my numbers look good. I would be stupid not to. Because of that even if the education level was exactly the same my results would still look better. And because my students have parents that actually care about their education my graduation rates and college entrance rates will be better also, even if I do nothing more than create an educational environment completely on par with public schools.

Public schools have to take the students that won't perform well. Private schools don't, therefore the numbers you want me to provide will be skewed. The original study I linked takes away those factors and finds little difference between the quality of education that one gets in either private or public schools.

and hence I stated any small private or parochial would still be better than a public school, from the lowest common denominator the 12th grade won't be optional!

Those schools still cost thousands of dollars a year that millions of parents in this country don't have.

Can't put a price on good education!

Yes you can. Every college has a tuition. The question is how to get the money.

[جوري]

I don't see anything you wrote that shows that over half of American public school children are either dropouts or pregnant. Please refresh my poorly educated memory.

Go check what you wrote to assert a moot point!

Chicago of Illinois Study

Overall, the study demonstrates that demographic differences between
students in public and private schools more than account for the relatively high raw scores of
private schools. Indeed, after controlling for these differences, the presumably advantageous
“private school effect” disappears, and even reverses in most cases.

This finding is nothing new
— private school students in the United States have typically scored higher than public school
students on standardized tests, confirming the perception among the US public and policymakers
that private schools are inherently more effective than public schools.
However, the real question for researchers and policymakers is whether differences in test
scores between various school types — public schools, charter schools, or Catholic and other
private schools — are primarily due to differences in the student populations served by these
different sectors. Earlier research on school sector effects indicated that private schools score
higher even after adjusting for the fact that these schools tend to serve students with fewer “risk”
factors. And yet, a few more recent studies have found instances where, after employing
statistical controls to account for the differences in student populations, achievement in public
schools has been equal to or, in some cases, higher than those of private schools (as described
below).

US Dept of Education Statistics

Shows that a majority of US students are going to college after graduation, and the majority of those are graduating within 6 years.

Small study in Washington DC

Each study investigated whether there was a difference in the rankings of the colleges and universities that enrolled Lafayette graduates who had attended public high schools versus those who attended private high schools. The results show that there is no significant difference in the rankings of colleges and universities where students were enrolled based on public versus private high school attendance.

Slightly off topic, but amusing study

For our study, we hypothesized that private high school students would be more successful in college, due to more moderate alcohol consumption levels and more well developed study habits...... However, we were able to conclude that students who attended private high schools drink more in college (t = .019, p<.05) than those who attended public high schools.

Basically, most of the data will show that private school students performed better than public school students. The question, though, is "is it because of the schools or the students?".

Private schools can reject students based on performance or attitude, while public schools cannot. That alone skews the numbers greatly.

Think about it. It's like being in the gym where you have two teams and two team captains. In this case, though, one team captain gets to pick his entire team while the other team captain gets the leftovers

Now tell me, when the first team plays the second team and wins, is it because the first guy is a better team captain? Of course not.

If I start a private school and have admission tests, you bet I'm going to select some students that perform well so that my numbers look good. I would be stupid not to. Because of that even if the education level was exactly the same my results would still look better. And because my students have parents that actually care about their education my graduation rates and college entrance rates will be better also, even if I do nothing more than create an educational environment completely on par with public schools.

Public schools have to take the students that won't perform well. Private schools don't, therefore the numbers you want me to provide will be skewed. The original study I linked takes away those factors and finds little difference between the quality of education that one gets in either private or public schools.

That is all I got out of your studies:
private schools scored higher than noncharter
public schools, as would be expected.

and ranking colleges doesn't differ amongst the students.. I am therefore not sure what your point is? It was never solely on education although it is an important factor, rather the entire package and environment in which to raise ones kids!
you keep arguing over and over and I am not sure exactly what your point is? Are you trying to prove to me that you are every bit as worthy? I have started this thread by confirming that two homeless girls went to Harvard for having the tenacity and drive.. chances however favor folks who are better prepared!

Those schools still cost thousands of dollars a year that millions of parents in this country don't have.

Indeed.. and that is tough for the average middle class american.. perhaps they ought to think about their kids education before electing the next war monger?

Yes you can. Every college has a tuition. The question is how to get the money.

Send your boys overseas and start endless wars and character assassination of folks over there, monopolize their lands and steal their oil and become a warlord.. isn't that how it is usually done?

all the best

[Woodrow]

One problem with education is as education levels increase, the available workers for production jobs decreases. I think we have worked ourselves into a box in which very few graduates are going into the production and manufacturing fields.

When my parents were students public education only went to the 6th grade, in my school years it extended to the age of 16 for most students and for Academically gifted to 12th grade. By the time my children became students it pretty well extended to at least Junior College and/or vocational schools.

We ended up with a surplus of very well trained students with no need or desire to enter into the crafts, production, agricultural, and manufacturing/construction fields. we have become a nation of service providers and military careers. The largest employer in the USA is government employment.

A listing of the 50 major US employers outside government is scary:

http://nyjobsource.com/largestemployers.html

Who in the US still produces food, makes shoes and clothing or builds houses?
We are top heavy in the Management, Services, and distribution fields and nobody wants to dirty their hands to put potatoes on the table.



Perhaps the government is trying to break this trend and force the populace back into the production and agrarian fields?

[titus]

I have started this thread by confirming that two homeless girls went to Harvard for having the tenacity and drive.. chances however favor folks who are better prepared!

The fact that you have to point that out proves my point. Money should not matter, only ability.

Private schools make money a major factor. Public schools do not.

That is all I got out of your studies:
private schools scored higher than noncharter
public schools, as would be expected.

Then read them more thoroughly. You will see that the private schools fared better in the tests because they had higher standards of admission. Public schools do not turn away people for lower test scores, therefore their scores are going to be lower.

It is not as if the public schools and private schools are starting with the same level of students and then, because of superior education, the private school students suddenly excel.

Send your boys overseas and start endless wars and character assassination of folks over there, monopolize their lands and steal their oil and become a warlord.. isn't that how it is usually done?

I don't know anyone that paid for school by stealing oil or becoming a warlord. I am sure if there are any they are in the minority. Please try and stay on topic.

Perhaps the government is trying to break this trend and force the populace back into the production and agrarian fields?

I doubt that. It almost sounds as if you are arguing that too much education is a bad thing. Even an educated farmer is better off than an ignorant one.

If the government wanted to force the populace back into the production and agrarian fields then the smartest route would be to increase incentives into agricultural and vocational schools, not try to increase those without a high school diploma.

In fact, if they were trying to increase the cheap labor pool the obvious answer would be to relax immigration laws, but the trend is going the opposite way. I believe you used to live in Texas, you can probably answer as well as anyone what kind of people here do much of the farmwork.

[جوري]

The fact that you have to point that out proves my point. Money should not matter, only ability.

Private schools make money a major factor. Public schools do not.

show me where I said anywhere around here that money matters over education?

Then read them more thoroughly. You will see that the private schools fared better in the tests because they had higher standards of admission. Public schools do not turn away people for lower test scores, therefore their scores are going to be lower.

Indeed.. one of the many many factors (as per my assertions) that make public schools an abomination!

It is not as if the public schools and private schools are starting with the same level of students and then, because of superior education, the private school students suddenly excel.

Yup, not the same starting point, again what is your point? you like to assert the obvious? I have been saying private education is superior all along!

I don't know anyone that paid for school by stealing oil or becoming a warlord. I am sure if there are any they are in the minority. Please try and stay on topic.

We are talking about the average american citizen. Not Muslims..

I doubt that. It almost sounds as if you are arguing that too much education is a bad thing. Even an educated farmer is better off than an ignorant one.

No, I am arguing that you relentlessly prove to us the ills of a public education in both your reports and your person!

If the government wanted to force the populace back into the production and agrarian fields then the smartest route would be to increase incentives into agricultural and vocational schools, not try to increase those without a high school diploma.

The populace should be forced into war and destruction, not something productive..

In fact, if they were trying to increase the cheap labor pool the obvious answer would be to relax immigration laws, but the trend is going the opposite way. I believe you used to live in Texas, you can probably answer as well as anyone what kind of people here do much of the farmwork.

I have never lived in texas!

all the best

[Woodrow]

In fact, if they were trying to increase the cheap labor pool the obvious answer would be to relax immigration laws, but the trend is going the opposite way. I believe you used to live in Texas, you can probably answer as well as anyone what kind of people here do much of the farmwork.

In Texas the majority of farm work is done by seasonal migrant farm hands coming out LEGALLY from Mexico, although the illegal workers get the publicity, most Mexican farm labor does come into the country legaly. It is nearly impossible to get an American to work on a farm.
Texas, Louisiana and Colorado have outstanding Agricultural Colleges, but there is a shortage of qualified applicants for them. The incentives and programs are out there. But, they are not popular fields for too many. There is also a bona fide need. We are reaching the point were our meat products are now becoming an import item. True we are still the major exporter of grains and vegetables, but we are becoming more dependent on meat and fish imports.

A good farm manager can earn over a $100,000 per year and good hard working ranch hands can earn more than the average professional.

Yes, education is a good thing to have. I have a reasonably good level of education, which is absolutely useless in the horse ranching I now do. It is also quite useless for life on the rez. I am all in favor for advanced education, but it is only of any value if it is applicable to a persons life.

[titus]

show me where I said anywhere around here that money matters over education?

You misunderstand.

The quality of education you receive should depend on your ability, not on how much money your parents make. That is the case with public schools. Not so with private ones.

Indeed.. one of the many many factors (as per my assertions) that make public schools an abomination!

Can you show me one study that students with the same socio-economic backgrounds and parental support do better in private school than public school? The study I linked and quoted shows there is little difference. The student does the same, it is just that the private schools won't allow the troubled students in.

Private schools can ignore those with disadvantages. Public schools cannot. That is the major factor in better test scores for private schools.

No, I am arguing that you relentlessly prove to us the ills of a public education in both your reports and your person!

I have never lived in texas!

I was responding to Woodrow's post. You would probably get much less upset at my posts if you understood what I was saying in context.

A good farm manager can earn over a $100,000 per year and good hard working ranch hands can earn more than the average professional.

I am no expert on farm work so I will take your word for that. Is the money predictable, though? Or is it still extremely dependent on weather and such? I also hear that the money spent on equipment for farming is exorbitant and the profit margin for farmers is quite small. Is that accurate?

In Texas the majority of farm work is done by seasonal migrant farm hands coming out LEGALLY from Mexico, although the illegal workers get the publicity, most Mexican farm labor does come into the country legaly. It is nearly impossible to get an American to work on a farm.

I am in the food industry and trust me, if all the illegal immigrants left one day then the majority of restaurants in Texas would have to close til they could hire new kitchen staffs.

I am all in favor for advanced education, but it is only of any value if it is applicable to a persons life.

That is if you look at advanced education solely as a means to an occupation. I have a different perspective as I received in a degree then went into a completely different direction. I believe an uneducated populace is a recipe for disaster in a democracy in which the people elect representatives to make and enforce their laws.

Without knowing their history, or being able to critically analyze what those running for office are promising then each vote is made out of ignorance. I would rather have an educated, intelligent horse rancher out voting on the direction of this nation than some guy who didn't graduate and thinks Politician Bob has the best TV commercial.\

I would also much rather have the problem of too many people being educated than not enough.

[Woodrow]

I am no expert on farm work so I will take your word for that. Is the money predictable, though? Or is it still extremely dependent on weather and such?

It is cycler and a good farmer can not think in terms of one year, you have to think in terms of 5-7 year increments. Over a seven year period you can predicate a very reasonable profit. But typically that profit will be based on the production of a single year. You need to learn that the one good year is going to have to carry you for the next 5-7 years and budget those profits out. A farmer can expect a total loss for 1 year 4 years of cost=profit and 2 years of profit, one of them minimal about 10% and one being a "bumper" year that will be a profit of from 10 to 25 times the years cost. Most farms faill on their first year because of failure to have the financial backing to cover for the first 10 years.

I also hear that the money spent on equipment for farming is exorbitant and the profit margin for farmers is quite small. Is that accurate?

A combine that you will use 3 to 4 days a year will cost at least $500,000, but in those 3 or 4 days you can harvest over 1,000 acres of grain with a profit of nearly $1,000 per acre on that one good year.

For a farm to stand a chance of success you need to think of a minimum size of 10,000 acres for a truck farm and 100,000 acres for livestock. You also need quite a few dependable employees.

I am in the food industry and trust me, if all the illegal immigrants left one day then the majority of restaurants in Texas would have to close til they could hire new kitchen staffs.

For the restaurant/hotel industry in Texas, that sounds very accurate. The migrant farm workers are virtually all legal green card holders and sign on with the harvesters and follow the harvesting seasons from Texas up into Manitoba Canada. They make out quite well as room and board is provided and virtually their income is all sent to their families in Meico. Typically they work 9 months out of the year and spend 3 months with family for the rest of the year.

That is if you look at advanced education solely as a means to an occupation. I have a different perspective as I received in a degree then went into a completely different direction. I believe an uneducated populace is a recipe for disaster in a democracy in which the people elect representatives to make and enforce their laws.

I am all in favor for education. But caution must be taken that the education does not lead you into a wasichu life style. (Wasichu is a Lakotah word, it's exact meaning is "white person" but what is meant is a destructive life style)

Without knowing their history, or being able to critically analyze what those running for office are promising then each vote is made out of ignorance. I would rather have an educated, intelligent horse rancher out voting on the direction of this nation than some guy who didn't graduate and thinks Politician Bob has the best TV commercial.\

Sounds reasonable

I would also much rather have the problem of too many people being educated than not enough.

I would prefer they had intelligence and wisdom, an education does not always give either one. Education, need not take place in a university setting. Some of the greatest minds in history never attended any university.

[جوري]

You misunderstand.

The quality of education you receive should depend on your ability, not on how much money your parents make. That is the case with public schools. Not so with private ones.

? Have we not covered this part? as stated previously I so tire of repeating myself!

Can you show me one study that students with the same socio-economic backgrounds and parental support do better in private school than public school? The study I linked and quoted shows there is little difference. The student does the same, it is just that the private schools won't allow the troubled students in.

What is the purpose of this study? The topic here is the failing public school system, not a moronity you conjured up. There is no comparison between public schools and private schools in levels of excellence, individualized attention, structure and principled.. One is more likely to succeed in an environment where they can focus on one task (studying) rather than a million other things up to and including missing an entire school year!

Private schools can ignore those with disadvantages. Public schools cannot. That is the major factor in better test scores for private schools.

So true!
so again, make more checks payable to the P.S. of your choice and ask it not to be funneled to creating more Humvees for your soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan or Yemen or whomever else rubbed you the wrong way or sitting on a potential gold mine that your greedy politicians snatch..

I was responding to Woodrow's post. You would probably get much less upset at my posts if you understood what I was saying in context.

Firstly, I am not upset, I am annoyed. If you could stop being redundant or come up with crap scenarios of no relevance, we could have been done with these a few pages ago.

as a last point (which reflects in all my posts).. if you can limit all the potential challenging variables, kids will fare better and chance to thrive and grow and contribute.. I think two more factors that are ancillary though in my opinion quite relevant, would be a school uniform and gender specific programs!

[titus]

One is more likely to succeed in an environment where they can focus on one task (studying) rather than a million other things up to and including missing an entire school year!

Only there is no evidence to support your assertion that a student taken out of public school will suddenly improve their performance in a private school. If you cannot show that then all your assertions are baseless. The study I mentioned, which you asked "What is the purpose of this study?", shows that there is no difference.

If you could stop being redundant or come up with crap scenarios of no relevance, we could have been done with these a few pages ago.

I am sorry you find my posts redundant, but I keep repeating myself and trying to phrase things differently because you are having difficulty understanding the points I am making. Of course that is understandable when you cannot even realize when I am responding to one of your posts or someone elses.

So, again, do you have any studies that show that most students taken from public schools would improve their performance in a private school? Do you have any data that shows the superior test scores for private schools have any factors involved other than the admission tests for the students?

I am all in favor for education. But caution must be taken that the education does not lead you into a wasichu life style. (Wasichu is a Lakotah word, it's exact meaning is "white person" but what is meant is a destructive life style)

That is very interesting. I am not familiar with wasichu, but would you find it similar to the peer pressure that some other minorities feel to not appear to be too educated because they would be selling out, or the phenomenon of "acting white"? Do you feel that this attitude may hinder what may be a valuable education experience?

[جوري]

Only there is no evidence to support your assertion that a student taken out of public school will suddenly improve their performance in a private school. If you cannot show that then all your assertions are baseless. The study I mentioned, which you asked "What is the purpose of this study?", shows that there is no difference.

The difference is palpable on how the two compare on the road to college. Obviously no one sane will compare if a street hot-dog tastes better if served at Alain Ducasse .. what exactly is the baseline of comparison? that your stomach is full? It is an entire experience, ingredients that go into the making, an upbringing a way of life.. and yes though I don't want to turn this subjective, my sr. tells me of a co-worker who saw a dramatic change in his son after taking him out of the hood of a public school that he was in and put him in a parochial school. New friends, new life style, better performance, focus etc.
So pls spare me more of your inane platitudes!

I am sorry you find my posts redundant, but I keep repeating myself and trying to phrase things differently because you are having difficulty understanding the points I am making. Of course that is understandable when you cannot even realize when I am responding to one of your posts or someone elses.

You repeat yourself because you suffer from some sort of schizophrenic echolalia, if you really had something of substance to impart it would have resonated and made sense, you wouldn't be taking the circuitous route to assert your constant non-points and one has no idea what they are anyway? That your average red-necker can do well in the local P.S? well then good-- I am glad they exert to make something of themselves.. How does this concern Muslims and how they should raise their kids?

So, again, do you have any studies that show that most students taken from public schools would improve their performance in a private school? Do you have any data that shows the superior test scores for private schools have any factors involved other than the admission tests for the students?

See paragraph one..

I think this article is more than sufficient to show who heads where after completing an excellent well structured education to what you propose:

At the top is an all-girls school on the Upper East Side known as one of the best schools in the city, Brearley. It was the only school to earn an "A+" grade on the Sun's survey. In the past three years, 12 Harvard freshmen hailed from Brearley —

http://www.nysun.com/new-york/brearl...schools/70489/

can you show me one public school that had at least three of its kids in an ivy league for one year not consecutively?

as for the rest:

In this issue...
Private Schools Outpace National Average on AP Exams
Private School Students Above Average on Science Tests
School Safety Report Released
New Study on Graduation Rates
CAPENotes



http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out12-01.html

do you still think you have something to say? resilience is trait of warts not high achievers if your only claim to fame is that you keep coming back for more!

all the best

[Woodrow]

That is very interesting. I am not familiar with wasichu, but would you find it similar to the peer pressure that some other minorities feel to not appear to be too educated because they would be selling out, or the phenomenon of "acting white"? Do you feel that this attitude may hinder what may be a valuable education experience?

The Lakotah favor further education, but they do not want to have it enslave them to the white lifestyle. Somethings the Lakotah do not recognize are private ownership of land, payment of taxes, needless killing of any living creature, and any man made structures that damage or despoil the natural beauty of the land.

They are extremely environment aware and see man's role as being stewards of the land and protectors of the animals.

The education they seek is that which teaches them how to protect the land and live on it without damaging it. Wealth is meaningless if it comes at the price of harming the earth. The Oglala/Lakotah could easily become some of the wealthiest people on earth if they exploited the black Hills for the gold deposits or exploited the Bracken Oil Pool that most of the Lakotah live on top of. Some of the things they are seeking is to use is the harnessing of windpower for generating low cost, environmentally friendly production of electricity, revitalization of the bison herds which provided them with all of their needs for thousands of years, restoration of the prairie lands and a return of the traditional agrarian/nomadic life.

At the moment there are at least 3 different Lakotah groups all striving for the same end but each with wanting to use different means. There are those who want to follow the suggestion of AIM and achieve this end through negotiation, There are those of us who follow Russell Means and his goal for the recognition of "The Republic of Lakotah" as a sovereign nation and there is the small but highly vocal "Warrior Society" who want to drive all things white off of "Turtle Island"(North America)

But, I find that most Lakotah value education, but they want the education to be that which will lead to a return of the traditional values and end USA government interference.

[titus]

I think this article is more than sufficient to show who heads where after completing an excellent well structured education to what you propose:

At the top is an all-girls school on the Upper East Side known as one of the best schools in the city, Brearley. It was the only school to earn an "A+" grade on the Sun's survey. In the past three years, 12 Harvard freshmen hailed from Brearley

This point is moot. Brearley has admission standards that public schools do not. Did Brearley choose these students because they showed the most promise to excel, or were they average students that Brearley groomed into Harvard students?

Brearley claims to accept students based on their academic promise. If they only accept the most promising of students wouldn't it be expected that they would have better than average results?

Where is the evidence that it was the quality of the school and not the initial quality of the students?

do you still think you have something to say? resilience is trait of warts not high achievers if your only claim to fame is that you keep coming back for more!

The closest you have come to backing up your claim was a personal anecdote you heard third hand, yet you insult me when I bring up my first hand personal stories.

I showed you a scientific study showing that the quality of education in public and private schools was pretty much the same, that the difference in results in mainly based on the admissions - not the quality of the teaching. You have given me a personal anecdote. You have not given me any evidence to refute it.

I admit that the results from private schools tend to be better than public schools. You can keep posting more links if you wish. That still does nothing to prove that those schools actually provide, on the whole, a better education.

what exactly is the baseline of comparison?

Get a group of students who are basically identical socially, economically, racially, etc. Test them for their academic abilities in say the 8th grade. Then test them again when they graduate. Is there a difference in the results between those that went to public school and those that did not? The study I presented said there was not a significant difference.

[جوري]

This point is moot. Brearley has admission standards that public schools do not. Did Brearley choose these students because they showed the most promise to excel, or were they average students that Brearley groomed into Harvard students?

Indeed.. Public schools and private schools don't compare.. as to why they have such a high percentage into Harvard or other IVY leagues, well I assure you, they demand excellence from their students, and their students deliver!

Brearley claims to accept students based on their academic promise. If they only accept the most promising of students wouldn't it be expected that they would have better than average results?

Indeed.. I am glad you are letting the 'elitist' bunk out of the topic now.. and realizing that it has nothing to do with money and everything to do with academics.. I believe that parents who expect more from their kids and offer them more get more.. Which is what I have been saying all along. If you foster talent in a positive environment, chances will favor your child. I am not merely speaking of Brearley of Spence etc. but any strict, disciplined and structured program where funding and resources are available.. and by that I don't mean the sort of resources of passing birth control pills to 11 year old girls:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/s...?storyid=93826

or lobbying to make mandatory gardasil vaccine in children as young as 9...
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2022501520070221

difficult choice isn't it?

Where is the evidence that it was the quality of the school and not the initial quality of the students?

Are you saying that kids who go to public schools are stupider? or that rich 'elitist kids are 'smarter' which would be a complete contradiction to what you'd stated earlier.. what a sad situation you find yourself in!

The closest you have come to backing up your claim was a personal anecdote you heard third hand, yet you insult me when I bring up my first hand personal stories.

My claims have been backed up and properly sourced all along and I stated begrudgingly of a third party opinion.. however, I find your query absurd and irrelevant to the topic -- I am not going to descend to word play simply because you don't like what the facts state!

I showed you a scientific study showing that the quality of education in public and private schools was pretty much the same, that the difference in results in mainly based on the admissions - not the quality of the teaching. You have given me a personal anecdote. You have not given me any evidence to refute it.

And I have shown you studies that assert that, that kids in private school do better, go back to my very last post. You are free however to bury your head in the sand!

I admit that the results from private schools tend to be better than public schools. You can keep posting more links if you wish. That still does nothing to prove that those schools actually provide, on the whole, a better education.

The facts speak for themselves, you are again free to believe as you desire.. furthermore, I am not really sure why you are trying so hard to convince me of something that has no weight? are you this desperate for validation?

Get a group of students who are basically identical socially, economically, racially, etc. Test them for their academic abilities in say the 8th grade. Then test them again when they graduate. Is there a difference in the results between those that went to public school and those that did not? The study I presented said there was not a significant difference.

The studies I presented say otherwise, so again you put your faith and your kids in public schools.. and the Muslims on board and hopefully outside of it insha'Allah will do the wise thing and invest in a good school for their kids safety,strong moral upbringing and academic performance...


all th best!

[titus]

Are you saying that kids who go to public schools are stupider? or that rich 'elitist kids are 'smarter' which would be a complete contradiction to what you'd stated earlier.. what a sad situation you find yourself in!

I stand by the fact that private schools are a haven for wealthy children. The fact is that economics plays a huge role in how well students do in school, whether it is public or private.

Private schools are able to weed out those they believe will underperform, so in that regard the answer is "yes", private schools do tend to have more intelligent students. That is the major factor in their schools having better results. Why do you think private schools have admission tests? It is most assuredly not because they want to find the most average students and help improve their education. It is because they want to find the ones that will be easiest to teach. The ones that show the most promise.

The facts speak for themselves, you are again free to believe as you desire

What facts? You have yet to produce one bit of evidence contradicting my point.

[جوري]

I stand by the fact that private schools are a haven for wealthy children. The fact is that economics plays a huge role in how well students do in school, whether it is public or private.

Private schools are able to weed out those they believe will underperform, so in that regard the answer is "yes", private schools do tend to have more intelligent students. That is the major factor in their schools having better results. Why do you think private schools have admission tests? It is most assuredly not because they want to find the most average students and help improve their education. It is because they want to find the ones that will be easiest to teach. The ones that show the most promise.

You have no facts to stand by, you tweak your opinion as articles are presented, you can't differentiate elitism from wealth from academic excellence and thus every time in a fix, you rely on subjective personal views or change your position all together.

No one is after average or below average what is your point? When you seek help for anything say treatment do you usually say, I'd like the second rate antibiotic? I'd like an anti-cancer drug that only kills half or an average amount of my cancer cells? I want a toothpaste that works on plaque but not gingivitis.. you are so funny. Try to make that applicable to real life situations.

What facts? You have yet to produce one bit of evidence contradicting my point.

Go back and read, I am tired of your presence here and your mediocre input!

[titus]

No one is after average or below average what is your point? When you seek help for anything say treatment do you usually say, I'd like the second rate antibiotic? I'd like an anti-cancer drug that only kills half or an average amount of my cancer cells? I want a toothpaste that works on plaque but not gingivitis.. you are so funny. Try to make that applicable to real life situations.

After countless attempts you either still cannot comprehend what I am saying or you are being purposely obtuse. Let me try another real life situation to see if this will work:

You have two basketball coaches of equal skill level. You give one an NBA team to coach and you give the other a high school team to coach. Now, when they go through the season and play each other, who is going to win? Of course it will be the coach with the NBA level players.

Does that mean that that coach is a better coach? No, it doesn't. Providing stats about how the NBA level team had more rebounds and scored more points does not prove that their coach was a better coach.

Yet with your examples, like Brearley, that is exactly what you have. When you have a school that only takes in those with the most academic ability of course they will perform better. That does not mean that the school itself is any better.

Go back and read, I am tired of your presence here and your mediocre input!

You still cannot provide any evidence that private schools provide a better education.

Nor have I seen you do anything other than rail against public schools. Yes, I find your "solutions" to be elitist and out of touch.

You bring up the poor inner city public schools and your answer to those people is to tell them that if they love their kids they will send them to private school. Some of them can barely keep food on the table, but all you have told them so far on this thread is that if their kids cannot get into private school then they aren't trying hard enough.

Your answer, basically, to the problems that public education has is to ignore it. You gave the smug answer that they should send their children to private school. Your answer is to ignore the 90% of the children in the country and concentrate on the 10% that went to private school like yourself, the majority of which are only able to be there because mother and father can afford it.

You advocate a system that, whether you like it or not, would mainly benefit the wealthy and leave the majority with an inferior education. Spare me the stories about how the top private schools only admit people based on merit. They have a minority of students that get some financial aid and the majority are in because mommy and daddy paid more for tuition than many people working full time make in a year.

[جوري]

After countless attempts you either still cannot comprehend what I am saying or you are being purposely obtuse. Let me try another real life situation to see if this will work:

You have two basketball coaches of equal skill level. You give one an NBA team to coach and you give the other a high school team to coach. Now, when they go through the season and play each other, who is going to win? Of course it will be the coach with the NBA level players.

Does that mean that that coach is a better coach? No, it doesn't. Providing stats about how the NBA level team had more rebounds and scored more points does not prove that their coach was a better coach.

I must admit I am surprised that after pages of inane attempts you can't simply lick your wounds and go cower somewhere?
Yes the NBA level players is going to win.. Again, what is your point?
And perhaps he is indeed a better coach how do you figure that he isn't?

Yet with your examples, like Brearley, that is exactly what you have. When you have a school that only takes in those with the most academic ability of course they will perform better. That does not mean that the school itself is any better.

Sure let's compare all around any P.S govt. funded and see how they rank in facilities, teachers, students, resources, expectations and performance.. You are nothing if not persistent!

You still cannot provide any evidence that private schools provide a better education.

I have indeed all you need to do is go back three posts and read instead of drowning me in more worthless logorrhea!

Nor have I seen you do anything other than rail against public schools. Yes, I find your "solutions" to be elitist and out of touch.

I have no interest in Public schools or the average American family.. it is amazing to me that you'd want me to have any sliver of concern for folks who have no regard whatsoever of human life or what becomes of others.

This is what you reap of your hatred and wars. My priorities don't favor elitism rather the well prepared mind.. I am concerned with Muslims here, Muslims overseas, then people who really need my immediate attention. No where on that list is your average american family.. if you are so concerned again for the umpteenth time, why not run for office of funnel your tax money where it will be used to educate your dumb assed youth instead of sending them to rape 14 year olds overseas?

You bring up the poor inner city public schools and your answer to those people is to tell them that if they love their kids they will send them to private school. Some of them can barely keep food on the table, but all you have told them so far on this thread is that if their kids cannot get into private school then they aren't trying hard enough.

No, my focus is on Muslims who happen to be a minority and can indeed manage in totality in private schools given their numbers..
I have stated and repeatedly if they can't get into a top school then they should research an excellent parochial or private school that will meet with their needs. Let me repeat if it hasn't gotten through to you, that I am not concerned with your average american kid, and I am not going to be concerned, I pay my taxes and that is a problem for your govt. or your churches, not a personal concern that I should lose any sleep over or anymore time arguing with you. If you are concerned then I have already asked you to do something about it in lieu of *****ing here to me about your woes!

Your answer, basically, to the problems that public education has is to ignore it. You gave the smug answer that they should send their children to private school. Your answer is to ignore the 90% of the children in the country and concentrate on the 10% that went to private school like yourself, the majority of which are only able to be there because mother and father can afford it.

That is true. I have no concern for non-Muslims in this country, how they breed or live etc.
And again if you want to make a noble effort, then your energy is wasted here on the forum, I suggest you run not walk to your nearest city councilman and start in the least by asking them not to divert money that should be spent on education to less than noble causes, Not come to me with your psycho-babble!

You advocate a system that, whether you like it or not, would mainly benefit the wealthy and leave the majority with an inferior education. Spare me the stories about how the top private schools only admit people based on merit. They have a minority of students that get some financial aid and the majority are in because mommy and daddy paid more for tuition than many people working full time make in a year.

I advocate a system that will breed strong Muslim minds, well prepared to deal with the **** that your country will dish out to oppress them. I have no vested interest in your youth and why their parents are dead-beats, or why they can't commit themselves to the act of studying and applying themselves. Not every private school is 30k. and at some point they'll dish out that much for college. If they whine now, they will also whine then-- and again, it is really not my concern!

all the best

[titus]

First the insults. Then the weak attempt to claim that this subject was supposed be only about Muslim education in the US (as if anyone really fell for that one), and now you pull the "rape 14 year olds" and the "This is what you reap of your hatred and wars." card in a pathetic attempt to paint yourself as the good muslim and me as the evil American who hates Muslims. This is a Muslim forum and some young Muslim may actually fall for it, but most will realize you don't have the ability to argue your point effectively so you have resorted to these sad tactics.

For the record I don't hate Muslims. Quite the opposite in fact. I find Muslims that cannot intelligently argue a point and who resort to insults and mudslinging as a form of debate to be frustrating, though.

Gossamer, I recommend following the example of other members such as Woodrow who can intelligently explain their point of view and can respectfully listen to me express mine, even when we disagree. Like adults. Not like junior high students on a playground.

Reply if you like, but this thread is done for me. I only wish your expensive education had provided better lessons in logic and proper debate, then maybe some constructive thought might have come of this topic.

Good day.

[جوري]

First the insults. Then the weak attempt to claim that this subject was supposed be only about Muslim education in the US (as if anyone really fell for that one), and now you pull the "rape 14 year olds" and the "This is what you reap of your hatred and wars." card in a pathetic attempt to paint yourself as the good muslim and me as the evil American who hates Muslims. This is a Muslim forum and some young Muslim may actually fall for it, but most will realize you don't have the ability to argue your point effectively so you have resorted to these sad tactics.

There are no insults here, merely pointing that being obstinate will cause ire especially if the subject has been addressed and repeatedly.
as for not arguing a point effectively, well I applaud you finally for your self-insight, now if you can only give up the projection, you'll have made a complete recovery.. and Again, this is an Islamic forum, addressing the Muslim end of events.

For the record I don't hate Muslims. Quite the opposite in fact. I find Muslims that cannot intelligently argue a point and who resort to insults and mudslinging as a form of debate to be frustrating, though.

Who cares how you feel? you like to have the last word at any price, article after article slaps you in the face and still you prefer to bury your head in the sand or pretend it wasn't posted all together as to appease yourself that your ailing, failing system is really great. If you are convinced of that, then good for you man, you don't need to convince me of anything as if your very manhood depends on it!

Gossamer, I recommend following the example of other members such as Woodrow who can intelligently explain their point of view and can respectfully listen to me express mine, even when we disagree. Like adults. Not like junior high students on a playground.

If you don't like it here don't be a member here.. each member here is unique, we are not going to be clones of one another to appease an un-educated fool..monotony and homogeneity is bred by a mediocre education and upbringing not the way of free-thinkers!

Reply if you like, but this thread is done for me. I only wish your expensive education had provided better lessons in logic and proper debate, then maybe some constructive thought might have come of this topic.

Good day.

We should hope to hold you to that promise!-- your inability to understand and decipher articles and other folks arguments as well constantly changing your own stance as the thread evolves doesn't denote that you have logic or can sustain a point

and all the best