Violence as Discipline for Children

[AhlaamBella]

:sl:

Me and my husband are debating over the best way to discipline a child. He was beaten (even with a belt) and claims it was the best thing his parents did for him. I wasn't even hit as a child. My Mum communicated with me and explained why things were wrong. I believe this is the best way.

Being Muslim we have decided to both search in Islam for evidence supporting both our cases. I found this story online but it had no reference. Anyone heard it before?

One day the Prophet was sitting with his companions when he saw a young child in the group. Having a great love for children, he called him and sat him on his lap. The people around him watched as the Prophet (s) gave his attention to the child. Suddenly the boy, over-awed perhaps, urinated on the lap of the Prophet(s). Embarrassed, the father sprang forward. “What have you done, you silly boy” he shouted. His arm shoved forward to grab the child away from the Prophet(s), his red face showing his anger. Fear and confusion showed in the face of the child. The Prophet(s) restrained the man, and gently hugged the child to him. “Don’t worry,” he told the over-zealous father. “This is not a big issue. My clothes can be washed. But be careful with how you treat the child” he continued. “What can restore his self-esteem after you have dealt with him in public like this?” - Taken from http://www.islamic-voice.com/raising-children.php

JazakAllah Khayr in advance

[Beardo]

^ I never heard that Hadith before. Can someone confirm its authenticity?

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:
i think one should discipline their children according to the capacity of the child's own mindset. for example, sometimes its not best to shout or hit your child in front of others as this will probably humiliate them. that's not to say to not discipline or use effective methods (as children dont like being told off in the first place so not disciplining them at all over their little "issue" shouldn't be an option), but ones that none-the-less are considerate to the feelings of the child.
perhaps even disciplinary methods may differ according to the child's gender? maybe not :hmm:

i strongly believe that a child rarely does something so bad that actually deserves a whack. in other words, a stern glare and a few stern words should cause the child to realize that what they are doing is wrong.

hitting should be the last option and even then it shouldn't cause bruising, traumatic, stress, etc. it should be enough, again, just to make the child realize what they are doing is wrong.

[Abdul Qadir]

:sl:

He was beaten (even with a belt) and claims it was the best thing his parents did for him.

JazakAllah Khayr in advance

May Allah save us from being in this situation. I was hit with belts, cane, was burnt...etc..and so were my cousins...if i had not gone thru those ordeals, maybe i will never have been the person i am now..then again, i would never do that to my children..inshallah...the sunnah is to love children...but love does necessarily have to be sweet and soothing always...heard of tough love? i pray that Allah Blesses us with good offsprings...

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[Maryan0]

I've been hit growing up not with a cane or belt though. My parents decided to try grounding and it was the worst punishment to me, lol, I prefer getting beat and getting it over with than having my freedom taken away. So maybe grounding is the best route to go.
Salam

[Beardo]

I've been hit growing up not with a cane or belt though. My parents decided to try grounding and it was the worst punishment to me, lol, I prefer getting beat and getting it over with than having my freedom taken away. So maybe grounding is the best route to go.
Salam

My parents never really grounded me. It could be because they didn't believe in it, or because they're Desi. They took my laptop away a number of times, but not like most kids my age where if you stay up 2 minutes after bedtime or eat desserts and snacks before dinner you get "grounded".

We all say we won't beat our children. That's probably true. But as Ummu Sufyaan mentioned, it's actually about making the child understand that what they did was wrong, and the severity of the punishment has to be consistent. You can't slap them for eating dessert before dinner and stealing equally. Obviously, stealing has to be a higher punishment. Did that make sense? :hiding:

[Abdul Qadir]

We all say we won't beat our children. That's probably true. But as Ummu Sufyaan mentioned, it's actually about making the child understand that what they did was wrong, and the severity of the punishment has to be consistent. You can't slap them for eating dessert before dinner and stealing equally. Obviously, stealing has to be a higher punishment. Did that make sense? :hiding:

Yeap, even the Prophet(sallallahu Alaihi wasallam) has said beat ur children if they dun pray when they are 10...(but im not sure about the authencity of this Hadith though...)

[Maryan0]

My parents never really grounded me. It could be because they didn't believe in it, or because they're Desi. They took my laptop away a number of times, but not like most kids my age where if you stay up 2 minutes after bedtime or eat desserts and snacks before dinner you get "grounded".
My parents also didn't believe in grounding but they decided to try it since beatings did not work for the longterm. Truly their version of grounding was extreme it was like solitary confinement. Needless to say we all started to listen after that.

We all say we won't beat our children. That's probably true. But as Ummu Sufyaan mentioned, it's actually about making the child understand that what they did was wrong, and the severity of the punishment has to be consistent. You can't slap them for eating dessert before dinner and stealing equally. Obviously, stealing has to be a higher punishment. Did that make sense? :hiding:
I understand and I agree. Making the child understand their wrongs and the different severities will work better in the longterm.

[CosmicPathos]

Children should be beaten, if they have not obeyed after constant reminders, but not excessively. Lets admit, you can always tell what an excessive beating is. If you see that you are beating someone while you are in fits of rage and absolutely crumbled them then that is torture and Islam does not accept that. But giving a spank or two on the face in situations where lets say a child has done zina after telling him its wrong, is absolutely called for. Minimal physical torture and maximize psychological torture by not buying them what they love.

its my observation that more of those kids whose parents always gave into their desires turn out to be spoiled people when they grow up and they treat their parents like crap. That's why I see, relatively, more obedience in desi kids than lets say white.

But I also know that torture can destroy a child's esteem and childhood experiences can greatly shape the way you observe things when you grow up hence I believe in moderation. Moderate love with children and moderate spanking if they do not obey the rules.

And they should not be beaten after a certain age. I believe that age is around 12-14. beating after that severely damages their psyche.

I wonder if Umar (ra) was the man that he was after such a rough and tortuous childhood, how would he have been if he grew up in the luxury like most of us on these forums. Just a thought.

[syilla]

Thats why we need Islam...

Islam has restricted that if you hit your children...you don't hit the face...not leaving any mark, and don't hit them when you're angry.

How many parents will hit their children when they are not angry???

[AhlaamBella]

Thats why we need Islam...

Islam has restricted that if you hit your children...you don't hit the face...not leaving any mark, and don't hit them when you're angry.

How many parents will hit their children when they are not angry???

That's an excellent point sis! Hitting children is something i have always been dead against. I cry at NSPCC adverts and have an urge to hold a child i see being hit. I can't help it so the thought of my husband hitting my child is too much to bear. He mentioned a story where a prophet nearly killed a child for being disrespecful to his parents. Anyone heard of this?

[Abdul Qadir]

That's an excellent point sis! Hitting children is something i have always been dead against. I cry at NSPCC adverts and have an urge to hold a child i see being hit. I can't help it so the thought of my husband hitting my child is too much to bear. He mentioned a story where a prophet nearly killed a child for being disrespecful to his parents. Anyone heard of this?

im not sure about the prophet story...i dun like beating children too...May Allah protect us from that...yes, tough love is needed but anything more than and occasional whip with a cane on the legs is not very good...

[Dagless]

im not sure about the prophet story...i dun like beating children too...May Allah protect us from that...yes, tough love is needed but anything more than and occasional whip with a cane on the legs is not very good...

That sounds quite extreme.

I'm also against hitting children. How can you beat someone when they barely know who they are, let alone what is expected of them?

[Abdul Qadir]

That sounds quite extreme.

I'm also against hitting children. How can you beat someone when they barely know who they are, let alone what is expected of them?

u call that extreme? ok...ur one nice daddy..lol

[Dagless]

u call that extreme? ok...ur one nice daddy..lol

Not yet ;) but inshallah one day :p
I just remeber the canes people got at madrasa, and they weren't nice :hmm:

[Abdul Qadir]

Not yet ;) but inshallah one day :p
I just remeber the canes people got at madrasa, and they weren't nice :hmm:

lucky i've never been to madrasah...madras yes..but not madrasah..lol

[Trumble]

Violent punishment is the refuge of the incompetent parent.

[Life_Is_Short]

I have been beaten both at school (typical back home) and by my aunt who taught me Quran. This one time (at school) my teacher twisted my arm so badly that it hurt for a week and we used to get hit with a stick too and sometimes for no reason.

Looking back now i think it was probably a good thing especially in the case of learning Quran.

[AhlaamBella]

The prophet s.a.w said hit the child if he refuses to pray, not if he struggles to learn Qur'an

[Life_Is_Short]

The prophet s.a.w said hit the child if he refuses to pray, not if he struggles to learn Qur'an

Well, my teachers probably didn't know that at the time.

[AhlaamBella]

Fair enough. I just find it so hard to accept hitting a child if they havn't done anything on purpose

[CosmicPathos]

Fair enough. I just find it so hard to accept hitting a child if they havn't done anything on purpose

thats why we are not ought to talk from our whims and desires.

What I or you find so hard to accept, it has no bearing on what are the commands in Islam. Neither do we pamper and spoil our kids, nor do we beat them to death. If the correction of kid calls for a slap or two, it must be done. Moderation is the key here. Never be like a white parent who is scared that if he touches his kid, the kid will call the cops.

[Life_Is_Short]

Fair enough. I just find it so hard to accept hitting a child if they havn't done anything on purpose

I know :(

I've been a victim many times. :hmm: However my parents never touched me. It's always the outsiders.

[CosmicPathos]

I know :(

I've been a victim many times. :hmm: However my parents never touched me. It's always the outsiders.

How could your parents (who never touched you) let outsiders beat you?

Allhamdulillah, I am proud of my dad. He did beat me for corrective reasons but only he and I am eternally grateful to him. He never allowed any outsider to even throw mud at me. may Allah give him ajar.

[Life_Is_Short]

How could your parents (who never touched you) let outsiders beat you?

Allhamdulillah, I am proud of my dad. He did beat me for corrective reasons but only he and I am eternally grateful to him. He never allowed any outsider to even throw mud at me. may Allah give him ajar.

When it's part of the system, you can't avoid it. In Pakistan beating in school was common. If you inform your parents they hate you and beat you even more. Your plan always back fires.

My parents have always been too busy to teach me anything so what the "outsiders" did i accepted as the status quo.

If you are bought up in such a system as a child, can/do you question it? No you don't. You don't even realise its wrong or oppressing./

[huan]

Violent punishment is a big no no. I remember when I used to go to mosque, the Imam used to torture this boy with the cane, I'm not sure but I think he just had a real bad memory or something and he tried so hard but couldn't learn it. The guy used to beat the poor thing barbarically. Come on is that how you make children learn stuff about religion, it's more like forcing kids and indoctrinating them. These Imam's should be arrested.

[AhlaamBella]

thats why we are not ought to talk from our whims and desires.

What I or you find so hard to accept, it has no bearing on what are the commands in Islam. Neither do we pamper and spoil our kids, nor do we beat them to death. If the correction of kid calls for a slap or two, it must be done. Moderation is the key here. Never be like a white parent who is scared that if he touches his kid, the kid will call the cops.

Well for starters I am a white parent. Second of all, my fear isn't that the child will tell someone it's the effect physical punishment has on a child. Please provide evidence to support hitting of children for something other than not praying. That is why I started this thread. For evidemnce. Not opinions and ancdotes. My husband will only listen to me if I hav the evidence, henc I will only listen to him if he has evidence (please refer o my first post)

[huan]

thats why we are not ought to talk from our whims and desires.

If the Qur'an said kill your kids if they misbehave would you do it. That's why it's so harmful to believe in a 6th century outdated scripture.

[AhlaamBella]

If the Qur'an said kill your kids if they misbehave would you do it. That's why it's so harmful to believe in a 6th century outdated scripture.

hhmm. . . I advise you read it and understand before you call it outdated.

[CosmicPathos]

Well for starters I am a white parent. Second of all, my fear isn't that the child will tell someone it's the effect physical punishment has on a child. Please provide evidence to support hitting of children for something other than not praying. That is why I started this thread. For evidemnce. Not opinions and ancdotes. My husband will only listen to me if I hav the evidence, henc I will only listen to him if he has evidence (please refer o my first post)

There is no evidence in Quran and Sunnah to not do it either. Prophet never hit a child. But that is out of the case. He never even killed anyone with his sword in a battle. His situation is unique one.

I do not support violence on children. But I do not consider a slap or two violence. Maybe I am not as sensitive as you are. To survive in nature, one has to be not overly sensitive. I am done here.

[CosmicPathos]

When it's part of the system, you can't avoid it. In Pakistan beating in school was common. If you inform your parents they hate you and beat you even more. Your plan always back fires.

My parents have always been too busy to teach me anything so what the "outsiders" did i accepted as the status quo.

If you are bought up in such a system as a child, can/do you question it? No you don't. You don't even realise its wrong or oppressing./

Well I grew in a Pakistani system too and got education till Fsc. Our teachers did beat us but because students would call them names and make fun of them. Their punishment was justified.

Once a teacher twisted my brother's finger and it got swollen just because he was doing wadoo and was not going for prayer while the teacher thought that he was playing around as many kids would waste time around wadoo area and not go for zuhr prayer so teachers would force em. My dad made sure that he goes to the school and he gave that teacher some pretty tough time. But some students do deserve it. They nickname amazing teachers as "parrot," "frog" and what not! and these are not kids! Grade 10, 11 and 12 students.

[Life_Is_Short]

Well I grew in a Pakistani system too and got education till Fsc. Our teachers did beat us but because students would call them names and make fun of them. Their punishment was justified.

Once a teacher twisted my brother's finger and it got swollen just because he was doing wadoo and was not going for prayer while the teacher thought that he was playing around as many kids would waste time around wadoo area and not go for zuhr prayer so teachers would force em. My dad made sure that he goes to the school and he gave that teacher some pretty tough time. But some students do deserve it. They nickname amazing teachers as "parrot," "frog" and what not! and these are not kids! Grade 10, 11 and 12 students.

Your circumstances, time frame and school was/is probably different to mine so let's just drop this here because we're going off topic.

As sister AhlaamBella said:

Please provide evidence to support hitting of children for something other than not praying. That is why I started this thread. For evidemnce. Not opinions and ancdotes. My husband will only listen to me if I hav the evidence, henc I will only listen to him if he has evidence (please refer o my first post)

[cat eyes]

it seems that your not getting any evidence so wouldnt it be best to speak with a scholar like most parents do? i mean you cannot just ask anybody about the raising of your children

[Samkurd]

:sl:

Me and my husband are debating over the best way to discipline a child. He was beaten (even with a belt) and claims it was the best thing his parents did for him. I wasn't even hit as a child. My Mum communicated with me and explained why things were wrong. I believe this is the best way.

Being Muslim we have decided to both search in Islam for evidence supporting both our cases. I found this story online but it had no reference. Anyone heard it before?

One day the Prophet was sitting with his companions when he saw a young child in the group. Having a great love for children, he called him and sat him on his lap. The people around him watched as the Prophet (s) gave his attention to the child. Suddenly the boy, over-awed perhaps, urinated on the lap of the Prophet(s). Embarrassed, the father sprang forward. “What have you done, you silly boy” he shouted. His arm shoved forward to grab the child away from the Prophet(s), his red face showing his anger. Fear and confusion showed in the face of the child. The Prophet(s) restrained the man, and gently hugged the child to him. “Don’t worry,” he told the over-zealous father. “This is not a big issue. My clothes can be washed. But be careful with how you treat the child” he continued. “What can restore his self-esteem after you have dealt with him in public like this?” - Taken from http://www.islamic-voice.com/raising-children.php

JazakAllah Khayr in advance

As a kid, i was smacked really hard lots of times by my dad for the things i did wrong.

Now let me tell you the pros and cons.

PRO: It made me quickly learn to do what my dad told me was right, and that repeating the same mistake would only leave me with a fat smack on to my face. I became a more obedient child to my dad.

CON: It made me live in fear of him. Even after hes done punishing me the fear still remained. Because of that i have never really been able to get close with my dad and now when i do see him its just awkward.

My opinion is, slap your child if he/she really deserves it. But please just talk to your kid with open arms and always be there to talk..

[AhlaamBella]

My opinion is, slap your child if he/she really deserves it. But please just talk to your kid with open arms and always be there to talk..

My point exactly. JazakAllah Khayr.

Cat eyes, We intend to ask a scholar in person at the Jimas conf. in April. However, I have found a lot of evidence for certain things on this site and am not about to abandon it just because I am becoming a parent. I am not asking just anybody - I am asking muslims if they know of any evidence.

[Alpha Dude]

My opinion is, slap your child if he/she really deserves it. But please just talk to your kid with open arms and always be there to talk..

I agree with this too. However, this would only work if you control your child well from birth and only let positive influences into his life.

You let him hang around the wrong crowd and indulge in useless/brainwashing anti-islamic stuff even in the slightest, then no amount of 'talking' to them will get them to be disciplined. They will lie to your face. If a child has gotten that spoilt, then most likely, nothing will work on them. Even smacking will be useless. The only benefit then of smacking would be them, at the very least, knowing their place and not chatting back to your face.

So yeah, talking to them properly is a good thing, but it must be done in conjunction with proper all round Islamic parenting!

[Muezzin]

The trick is to raise your child such that you never have to hit them.

Which is probably impossible for some people, but it's my personal gold standard for any future younglings.

[AhlaamBella]

The trick is to raise your child such that you never have to hit them.

Which is probably impossible for some people, but it's my personal gold standard for any future younglings.

Very true! I told my husband I'm determined not to give him any excuse to hit our child. May Allah guide and help me. Ameen

[cat eyes]

My point exactly. JazakAllah Khayr.

Cat eyes, We intend to ask a scholar in person at the Jimas conf. in April. However, I have found a lot of evidence for certain things on this site and am not about to abandon it just because I am becoming a parent. I am not asking just anybody - I am asking muslims if they know of any evidence.

yeah but the opinions here that people are giving from there own belief could possibly influence you.

i believe that if the prophet (SAW) never wanted injury to animals alone is enough to say that Allah is certainly not going to tolerate injury to a human especially your own child well its always best to be on the safe side anyway and even if you feel that the first opinion that u get from imaam is not right then ask several scholars about this and follow which ever one you think is right.

all the best
:wa: