Saudi women allowed to argue in courts

[CosmicPathos]

Saudi Arabia is planning to bring in a new law to allow women lawyers to argue cases in court for the first time.

Justice Minister Mohammed al-Eissa said the law was part of King Abdullah's plan to develop the legal system.

The law - to be issued "in the coming days" - would allow women to appear in court on family-related cases, including divorce and child custody.
At the moment, they can only work behind the scenes in government and court offices.

The new legislation will also allow Saudi women to complete certain procedures without the presence of a witness.

"In accordance with the new law, women will be able to complete their preliminary procedures with notaries by just presenting their IDs," said Ministry of Justice official Osama al-Mirdas, according to Arab News.
Under a system of male guardianship, Saudi Arabian women are required to be kept separate from men they are not related to.

All are veiled to a greater or lesser degree in public, they are not allowed to drive, and women under 45 must receive permission from a male when they travel. (the writer is presenting this as his/her lament. I hope if he/she dies as a kaafir then he/she has the same lament)

Opportunities for education and employment are also dependent on male guardianship. (Not that it is not in the liberating West)

But a number of steps have been taken to ease restrictions - for instance women are now allowed to stay in hotels unaccompanied. (yea, zina usually occurs when a guy or a girl rent out a hotel room and the two love-birds meet, at least back home and even in the West. Does not justify ban of women renting a hotel room but I am not sure what Islamic ruling would be)

Last year, a senior cleric was removed after criticising a new mixed-sex science and technology university. (Yes, HAIL the Al-Saud Shayateen. No, you cant criticize or rebel against the ruler, Prophet (pbuh) said so man!)

The cleric, Sheikh Saad al-Shethry, had described the mixing of sexes in any university as evil and a great sin. (Mixing of sexes is indeed a great evil. But I would not trust Sheikh Al-Shethry. He gave a fatwa against co-education in KAUST and weeks later he allowed co-education saying that its justified in this context, after the pressure from the Al-Saud shayateen)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8526862.stm

Do you guys have any comments? Italics are my comments above.

[heavenlyspot]

It's definitely hard to comment on the issue when there are so many different opinions on the matter. There are many laws in Saudi prohibiting women from doing certain things. However a lot of Muslim people I talk to agree that it's somewhat even against Islam to prevent them from participating in society in the simplest ways.

On the other hand, many Muslims see the immense benefits of these laws. Either way- one thing us foreign Muslims (ones living in the West) sometimes forget is that most people living in Saudi Arabia are rich. Meaning, just because a woman cannot drive doesn't mean she has to take the bus everywhere. They have drivers and helpers around the house (not that everyone is rich ofcourse).

[CosmicPathos]

It's definitely hard to comment on the issue when there are so many different opinions on the matter. There are many laws in Saudi prohibiting women from doing certain things. However a lot of Muslim people I talk to agree that it's somewhat even against Islam to prevent them from participating in society in the simplest ways.

On the other hand, many Muslims see the immense benefits of these laws. Either way- one thing us foreign Muslims (ones living in the West) sometimes forget is that most people living in Saudi Arabia are rich. Meaning, just because a woman cannot drive doesn't mean she has to take the bus everywhere. They have drivers and helpers around the house (not that everyone is rich ofcourse).

Hmm but these laws in Saudi have a backing from the religious people who are known as scholars in Saudi and the West. Example being the past scholars such as Sh Bin Baz and others. The Shura had the fatwa of banning of camera phones in Saudi I believe back in 2004.

Can you explain which of these laws which prohibit women from certain things are contradictory to islam as seen from the lens of a Western Muslim?

[heavenlyspot]

Yes, that's why I'm not totally opposed to the laws. Surely these scholars and shaikhs see the wisdom behind their laws.

I guess living so long in a non-Muslim country shapes your thinking SubhanAllah.

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[Lynx]

Saudi Arabia is planning to bring in a new law to allow women lawyers to argue cases in court for the first time.

Justice Minister Mohammed al-Eissa said the law was part of King Abdullah's plan to develop the legal system.

The law - to be issued "in the coming days" - would allow women to appear in court on family-related cases, including divorce and child custody.
At the moment, they can only work behind the scenes in government and court offices.

The new legislation will also allow Saudi women to complete certain procedures without the presence of a witness.

"In accordance with the new law, women will be able to complete their preliminary procedures with notaries by just presenting their IDs," said Ministry of Justice official Osama al-Mirdas, according to Arab News.
Under a system of male guardianship, Saudi Arabian women are required to be kept separate from men they are not related to.

All are veiled to a greater or lesser degree in public, they are not allowed to drive, and women under 45 must receive permission from a male when they travel. (the writer is presenting this as his/her lament. I hope if he/she dies as a kaafir then he/she has the same lament)

Opportunities for education and employment are also dependent on male guardianship. (Not that it is not in the liberating West)

But a number of steps have been taken to ease restrictions - for instance women are now allowed to stay in hotels unaccompanied. (yea, zina usually occurs when a guy or a girl rent out a hotel room and the two love-birds meet, at least back home and even in the West. Does not justify ban of women renting a hotel room but I am not sure what Islamic ruling would be)

Last year, a senior cleric was removed after criticising a new mixed-sex science and technology university. (Yes, HAIL the Al-Saud Shayateen. No, you cant criticize or rebel against the ruler, Prophet (pbuh) said so man!)

The cleric, Sheikh Saad al-Shethry, had described the mixing of sexes in any university as evil and a great sin. (Mixing of sexes is indeed a great evil. But I would not trust Sheikh Al-Shethry. He gave a fatwa against co-education in KAUST and weeks later he allowed co-education saying that its justified in this context, after the pressure from the Al-Saud shayateen)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8526862.stm

Do you guys have any comments? Italics are my comments above.

So do you think women should or should not be allowed to drive?

[CosmicPathos]

So do you think women should or should not be allowed to drive?

In an Islamic state, I do think they should be allowed to drive in the absence of a mehram companion. They cannot however "travel," unless they have a male mehram accompanying them. Emergencies excepted.

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/9280/women%20outside

[titus]

In an Islamic state, I do think they should be allowed to drive in the absence of a mehram companion.

Out of curiosity, would this rule apply to non-Muslim women also in an Islamic state?

[CosmicPathos]

Out of curiosity, would this rule apply to non-Muslim women also in an Islamic state?

yes, non-Muslims in an Islamic state do not get special treatment. They are not above the law.

[ardianto]

Saudi Arabia is planning to bring in a new law to allow women lawyers to argue cases in court for the first time.

Justice Minister Mohammed al-Eissa said the law was part of King Abdullah's plan to develop the legal system.

The law - to be issued "in the coming days" - would allow women to appear in court on family-related cases, including divorce and child custody.
At the moment, they can only work behind the scenes in government and court offices.

The new legislation will also allow Saudi women to complete certain procedures without the presence of a witness.

"In accordance with the new law, women will be able to complete their preliminary procedures with notaries by just presenting their IDs," said Ministry of Justice official Osama al-Mirdas, according to Arab News.
Under a system of male guardianship, Saudi Arabian women are required to be kept separate from men they are not related to.

All are veiled to a greater or lesser degree in public, they are not allowed to drive, and women under 45 must receive permission from a male when they travel.
Opportunities for education and employment are also dependent on male guardianship.

But a number of steps have been taken to ease restrictions - for instance women are now allowed to stay in hotels unaccompanied.

Last year, a senior cleric was removed after criticising a new mixed-sex science and technology university.

The cleric, Sheikh Saad al-Shethry, had described the mixing of sexes in any university as evil and a great sin.

After the Italics has gone, now what is your comment on this article, bro, sis ?.

[Supreme]

Saudi Arabia is giving women a basic human right?

Madness. What next? Maybe it might give women more rights- what then? It's unthinkable.

[CosmicPathos]

After the Italics has gone, now what is your comment on this article, bro, sis ?.

what do you mean?

[Lynx]

In an Islamic state, I do think they should be allowed to drive in the absence of a mehram companion. They cannot however "travel," unless they have a male mehram accompanying them. Emergencies excepted.

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/9280/women%20outside

I See.

You quote from Islamqa which is interesting. What are your feelings on this?

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/45880/saudi%20women%20drive

You will have to scroll down a bit to get to the part about Women driving where ibn baaz and uthaymeen are being quoted.

[CosmicPathos]

I See.

You quote from Islamqa which is interesting. What are your feelings on this?

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/45880/saudi%20women%20drive

You will have to scroll down a bit to get to the part about Women driving where ibn baaz and uthaymeen are being quoted.

I dont disagree with their rulings. They are speaking for the people of their country within a specific social milieu and culture i.e. An-Najd.

[Samkurd]

The title of this thread makes me laugh..

People are saying this as if its some sort of achievement that woman can now, in the year 2010, be allowed to vote.

I think Saudi Arabia should stop living in the olden times and understand that women, just like men, are humans too.

I hear people say "Well its not against women, its so that men do not get involved" or for things like how men and women are separated at dining facilities "Well i thought of it as keeping the men segregated not the other way round" for the purpose of men hitting on women..

How about Saudi Arabia just teaches their men to just be CIVILIZED human beings, not power tripping, ego hungry losers.

From,

A middle eastern, muslim male.

[CosmicPathos]

The title of this thread makes me laugh..

People are saying this as if its some sort of achievement that woman can now, in the year 2010, be allowed to vote.

I think Saudi Arabia should stop living in the olden times and understand that women, just like men, are humans too.

I hear people say "Well its not against women, its so that men do not get involved" or for things like how men and women are separated at dining facilities "Well i thought of it as keeping the men segregated not the other way round" for the purpose of men hitting on women..

How about Saudi Arabia just teaches their men to just be CIVILIZED human beings, not power tripping, ego hungry losers.

From,

A middle eastern, muslim male.

voting is haram.

[جوري]

^^ I agree with that..so far I have seen two fataws from sheikh uhtymeen and frankly I disagree with them. scholars make mistakes, I don't think that his fatwa is appropriate for najd now or during any time. During the prophet time, did khwala bint al azwar not ride a horse along side khalid ibn ilwaleed to save her brother? did the women not voice their 'vote' to prophet Mohammad (PBUH) I am not a scholar, but I think a little common sense goes along way.


:w:

[جوري]

voting is haram. You are a frustrated middle eastern, muslim male who is influenced by the West while sitting in some cave and probably were born in some cave.

what does مبايعة mean to you? have you seen this term in the Quran? and did you see women partake in that?

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُبَايِعُونَكَ إِنَّمَا يُبَايِعُونَ اللَّهَ يَدُ اللَّهِ فَوْقَ أَيْدِيهِمْ فَمَن نَّكَثَ فَإِنَّمَا يَنكُثُ عَلَى نَفْسِهِ وَمَنْ أَوْفَى بِمَا عَاهَدَ عَلَيْهُ اللَّهَ فَسَيُؤْتِيهِ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا (48:10)

:w:

[CosmicPathos]

what does مبايعة mean to you? have you seen this term in the Quran? and did you see women partake in that?

:w:

Voting as it is done in a secular democratic society. I did not say anything about free-will in giving allegiance (vote?) to any Islamic leader which one deems to be appropriate for leading the ummah. Also regarding the "voting" of the Khulafa rashideen, none of them advertised that he wanted to be the leader as is commonly done where we live. On the contrary, Umar (ra) did not want his responsibility as a leader. We cannot equate two entirely different systems. And as you might have seen, I am strictly opposed to Saudi Kingship and do not consider that Islamic as well. But that guys comments appeared as a reflection of infatuation with the West which is unfortunately common among people living back home. We live here and I am sure you also know the reality. Grass is greener on the other side.

w salam

[جوري]

Voting as it is done in a secular democratic society. I did not say anything about free-will in giving allegiance (vote?) to any Islamic leader which one deems to be appropriate for leading the ummah.

w salam

:sl:
within the Islamic tenets women were allowed and are allowed to voice their needs and concerns this was the deal millenniums ago, did you not know of women yelling at Umab ibn ilkhtab (RA) question is why are things further back to pre-Islamic Arabia? to the days of jahilya now.. why are people so afraid to speak lest they be deemed less than ideal Muslims? Sob7an Allah..

:w:

[Samkurd]

voting is haram. You are a frustrated middle eastern, muslim male who is influenced by the West while sitting in some cave and probably were born in some cave.

Frustrated for voicing an opinion? Do not try and insult me because im giving the other end of the argument, learn how to be mature if you wish to participate in a discussion and handle both sides like an adult.

[CosmicPathos]

:sl:
within the Islamic tenets women were allowed and are allowed to voice their needs and concerns this was the deal millenniums ago, did you not know of women yelling at Umab ibn ilkhtab (RA) question is why are things further back to pre-Islamic Arabia? to the days of jahilya now.. why are people so afraid to speak lest they be deemed less than ideal Muslims? Sob7an Allah..

:w:

:sl:

I did not exclude women from the classical traditional system. I hope it was a misunderstanding. :hmm:
:wa:

regarding the Smakurd guy, you can read his views, as they are common among "slightly" educated people living there:

"Im sorry but i totally DISAGREE with this.

Whats this nonsense about only being able to take in a FRIEND who is muslim?

If i had a choice between being friends with a muslim girl or a 'kaffar' girl, who's to say the muslim girl is going to be a better, moral friend?

Who knows if this muslim girl steals from shops ?

At the end of the day, in my eyes, if theyre a good person, you can be their friend.

Why NOT be friends with someone because of what they may impose on you? No one can make you do anything but yourself.

THIS WHOLE DIVIDE OF MUSLIM / KAFFAR STUFF HAS TO STOP. WHY IS IT SO IMPOSSIBLE TO LIVE TOGETHER?"

[CosmicPathos]

Frustrated for voicing an opinion? Do not try and insult me because im giving the other end of the argument, learn how to be mature if you wish to participate in a discussion and handle both sides like an adult.

There are at least 6 billion opinions around the world. It does not matter to me if it goes against Quran and Sunnah.

[Samkurd]

:sl:

I did not exclude women from the classical traditional system. I hope it was a misunderstanding. :hmm:
:wa:

regarding the Smakurd guy, you can read his views, as they are common among "slightly" educated people living there

"Slightly" educated? You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about muslims who live in the west... were not aliens, and we have just as much information and teaching on islam as you do, so please stop acting so hostile.

[جوري]

:sl:

I did not exclude women from the classical traditional system. I hope it was a misunderstanding. :hmm:
:wa:

regarding the Smakurd guy, you can read his views, as they are common among "slightly" educated people living there:

"Im sorry but i totally DISAGREE with this.

Whats this nonsense about only being able to take in a FRIEND who is muslim?

If i had a choice between being friends with a muslim girl or a 'kaffar' girl, who's to say the muslim girl is going to be a better, moral friend?

Who knows if this muslim girl steals from shops ?

At the end of the day, in my eyes, if theyre a good person, you can be their friend.

Why NOT be friends with someone because of what they may impose on you? No one can make you do anything but yourself.

THIS WHOLE DIVIDE OF MUSLIM / KAFFAR STUFF HAS TO STOP. WHY IS IT SO IMPOSSIBLE TO LIVE TOGETHER?"

:sl:
The thing is there are two extremes, folks who make it so difficult and unbearable with very unusual fatwas that weren't fit during the time of the prophet let alone our world, and those who take the polar opposite view and really who wouldn't with views such as these?

The Prophet said: 'The religion (of Islam) is easy. No one ever made it difficult without it becoming too much for him. So avoid extremes and strike a balance, do the best you can and be cheerful, and seek Allah's help (through prayer) in the morning, and evening, and part of the night.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)

Islam is a religion about balance and modesty not misogyny and unrealistic roles and expectations.

I am not following threads about teenagers and boyfriends etc. I am strictly speaking of these fatwas which I don't believe cater to anyone during any period of time.. and are down right unrealistic. Let me tell you what happens when a woman can't drive or ride a horse or whatever means are left to her to get places.. when her husband is sick and her son is at work, all she can do is sit there and watch her husband die while helps arrives.. and that is exactly what happened to my aunt during Ramadan..


:w:

[Muezzin]

Please discuss this subject in a civilised manner without insulting other members. Since this also seems quite a volatile topic, please take care that criticisms are not inflammatory, so as to avoid any ensuing flame wars.

Put another way:

If people are using this thread to pick fights, it will be closed.

[ardianto]

what do you mean?

I am sorry if I made you angry.

But, next time if you want to discuss about someone else article, at first you must post that article in original version, do not add something. Then you and other members can quote that article and write some comments.

:)

[barney]

I wouldnt see women in court being a problem islamically as long as there was double the number of them for a matter that required a specific amount of men?

Sahih Muslim 1:142: "O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof."

[ardianto]

voting is haram.

As a supporter of an Islamic party, I disagree. I cannot let secularists rule parliament alone.

[Grofica]

So do you think women should or should not be allowed to drive?

Im a woman and i can think of literally 100's of women off the top of my head who really should not be allowed to drive... :exhausted

in the same token i can think of about 50-60 men that also shouldnt be allowed to...;D;D

[Abdul Qadir]

So do you think women should or should not be allowed to drive?

No, unless there is a guardian escorting her...

[Abdul Qadir]

:sl:

Let me tell you what happens when a woman can't drive or ride a horse or whatever means are left to her to get places.. when her husband is sick and her son is at work, all she can do is sit there and watch her husband die while helps arrives.. and that is exactly what happened to my aunt during Ramadan..


:w:

there is no reason y women can't learn to drive. and in this particular case, obviously she has a legitimate excuse to drive. and please dun argue with the fatwas of scholars of ahlus sunnah like Sheik Uthaymeen Rahimullah. if u have an opinion, u voice it...but u dun have to drag the sheik's name into the mix...

[ardianto]

there is no reason y women can't learn to drive. and in this particular case, obviously she has a legitimate excuse to drive. and please dun argue with the fatwas of scholars of ahlus sunnah like Sheik Uthaymeen Rahimullah. if u have an opinion, u voice it...but u dun have to drag the sheik's name into the mix...

There is difference between disagree and disrespect.

Many Muslims in Indonesia are disagree with some fatawa (only few, not all) from Sheik Uthaymeen Rahimullah, but we always respect to him because he's a great scholar.

However, there is a problem. Some people force Muslim to accept fatawa from Sheik Uthaymeen Rahimullah, and those people say "Anyone who disagree with this fatwa is kafir !".

[Abdul Qadir]

There is difference between disagree and disrespect.

Many Muslims in Indonesia are disagree with some fatawa (only few, not all) from Sheik Uthaymeen Rahimullah, but we always respect to him because he's a great scholar.

However, there is a problem. Some people force Muslim to accept fatawa from Sheik Uthaymeen Rahimullah, and those people say "Anyone who disagree with this fatwa is kafir !".

no..no one make takfeer apart from the likes of the khariji or the ikhwani...i dun think anyone would say that unless he/she is a person desperatelt lacking knowledge...yes..there's nothing wrong if u disagree...if someone disagrees, then they should keep that opinion to themselves and dun call onto people to follow them and say thinks like use common sense..this is insulting the sheik....May Allah grant him Al-firdaus...may Allah protect the Ahlul Hadith...

[Grofica]

I wouldnt see women in court being a problem islamically as long as there was double the number of them for a matter that required a specific amount of men?

Sahih Muslim 1:142: "O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof."

why would it take twice as many women to equal a male attorney... this is about court cases and being able to appear in court. its not like she would be unescorted or in some comprimising condition. she would be in a public forum and honestly all the female attorneys i know are dang good. the female that my mother hired was such a good attorney that a lot of other attorneys male and female would not cross her. she knew her stuff and then some.

i say rock on! girl power!

[ardianto]

no..no one make takfeer apart from the likes of the khariji or the ikhwani...i dun think anyone would say that unless he/she is a person desperatelt lacking knowledge...yes..there's nothing wrong if u disagree...if someone disagrees, then they should keep that opinion to themselves and dun call onto people to follow them and say thinks like use common sense..this is insulting the sheik....May Allah grant him Al-firdaus...may Allah protect the Ahlul Hadith...

Sheik Uthaymeen Rahimullah himself was always respect to different opinion. If you read his fatawa completely, you can find if Sheik Uthaymeen Rahimullah allowed Muslims to argue his fatawa as long as that argument is based on Qur'an and hadith. He opened his door of ijtihad.

I believe, Sheik Uthaymeen Rahimullah never approve some people who drag his name in call kafir to other Muslims. But now he cannot warns those people because he has back to rahmatullah. May Allah grant him Al-firdaus. May Allah protects Ahlul-Hadith.

[جوري]

there is no reason y women can't learn to drive. and in this particular case, obviously she has a legitimate excuse to drive. and please dun argue with the fatwas of scholars of ahlus sunnah like Sheik Uthaymeen Rahimullah. if u have an opinion, u voice it...but u dun have to drag the sheik's name into the mix...

I don't need you to validate what I wrote argue for or against it. I said I disagreed with the sheikh for the second time.. women argued against Umar ibn Ilkhtab back in the day. Not agreeing with someone doesn't mean 'dragging their name' hating them or thinking they have absolutely nothing scholarly to contribute, it means just that I don't agree with this particular fatwa! -- I think you need to recognize that differences of opinions will exist and it need not have such a dire upheave!


http://www.islamicboard.com/aqeedah/...uthaymeen.html