Letter to a Christian Missionary

[MuslimAgorist]

She asked, "Are you religious?" I smiled and answered, "yes." "Do you go to Church?" she probed. "I go to Mosque." Puzzled, she continued, "Do you believe Jesus died for your sins?" Still smiling I said, "I do not even believe that he's dead." And there it was... I was a disbeliever who must be witnessed to. She was a very lovely woman, full of passion for God. I like that. We agreed about many things, and disagreed about a lot too. We spent nearly an hour in conversation before we parted company. I agreed to read all her literature, if she would read my response. I took her phone number and promised to call. What follows is my response.

Part I: Letter to a Christian Missionary
Part II: The Oneness of God
Part III: The Satanic Verses
Part IV: Muhammad in the Bible
Part V: Pray as the Prophets prayed

[Grace Seeker]

Praying that this thread maintains a spirit of mutual love for one another as the two who first met and shared their witness with one another did.

[hooreeya]

She asked, "Are you religious?" I smiled and answered, "yes." "Do you go to Church?" she probed. "I go to Mosque." Puzzled, she continued, "Do you believe Jesus died for your sins?" Still smiling I said, "I do not even believe that he's dead." And there it was... I was a disbeliever who must be witnessed to. She was a very lovely woman, full of passion for God. I like that. We agreed about many things, and disagreed about a lot too. We spent nearly an hour in conversation before we parted company. I agreed to read all her literature, if she would read my response. I took her phone number and promised to call. What follows is my response.

Part I: Letter to a Christian Missionary
Part II: The Oneness of God
Part III: The Satanic Verses
Part IV: Muhammad in the Bible
Part V: Pray as the Prophets prayed

Brother,

now i invite you to give me your answers to my questions. Contact me.
One of them: How are you going to get to the Kingdom of Heaven?

Bahira

['Abd-al Latif]

Brother,

now i invite you to give me your answers to my questions. Contact me.
One of them: How are you going to get to the Kingdom of Heaven?

Bahira

By accepting Jesus as the slave of Allah and His prophet who worshipped Allah alone and called us to His worship alone without the association of another deity.

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[hooreeya]

By accepting Jesus as the slave of Allah and His prophet who worshipped Allah alone and called us to His worship alone without the association of another deity.

Brother,

if you know in Islam acceptance of any prophets does NOT make you holy.
Holy God will allow only HOLY person to be in His presence.
How are you going to be holy?
Worship of Allah does NOT save any one. His mercy is SAVING you.

Where is this MERCY in Islam?

There is NO mercy of God in Islam.
Behead unbelievers and enter the paradise says Islam.
Dont behead anyone and HOLY enter the Kingdom of Heaven says God Jesus.
it is TRUE MERCY of TRUE God who is ONE God of Ibrahim.


Is christian God the same way evil like God of Islam?

Is God of Islam MERCY?- Are you forgiven by him?
Is God of Islam your father?- NO. You are slave.



Is God of Ibrahim MERCY?- YES. We are forgiven by His Son Jesus?
Is God of Ibrahim our father?- Yes. He adopted us and called us His Inheritance.


Is any reason left to worship unknown god of Islam?- NO.
Why? Because answer is obvious- he does NOT exist.
What do you think?

God of Ibrahim LOVES you and waits for you!
Bahira

['Abd-al Latif]

Brother,

if you know in Islam acceptance of any prophets does NOT make you holy.
Holy God will allow only HOLY person to be in His presence.
How are you going to be holy?
Worship of Allah does NOT save any one. His mercy is SAVING you.

Where is this MERCY in Islam?

There is NO mercy of God in Islam.
Behead unbelievers and enter the paradise says Islam.
Dont behead anyone and HOLY enter the Kingdom of Heaven says God Jesus.
it is TRUE MERCY of TRUE God who is ONE God of Ibrahim.


Is christian God the same way evil like God of Islam?

Is God of Islam MERCY?- Are you forgiven by him?
Is God of Islam your father?- NO. You are slave.



Is God of Ibrahim MERCY?- YES. We are forgiven by His Son Jesus?
Is God of Ibrahim our father?- Yes. He adopted us and called us His Inheritance.


Is any reason left to worship unknown god of Islam?- NO.
Why? Because answer is obvious- he does NOT exist.
What do you think?

God of Ibrahim LOVES you and waits for you!
Bahira

I am fully aware that acceptance of Allah's prophets does not make me holy, it makes me a believer. The only things in Islam that are holy is the book of Allah (i.e. the Qur'aan) and tradition of the Messenger of Allah.

And you asked where is mercy in Islam. Mercy in Islam is evident for someone who knows a little bit about Islam. Allah says in the Qur'aan;

And My Mercy embraces all things. [al-A’raaf 7:156]

And We have sent you (O Muhammad) not but as a mercy for the mankind. [al-Anbiya’ 21:107]

Declare (O Muhammad) unto My slaves, that truly, I am the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful. [15:49]

These verses should suffice.

P.S

What are you talking about, God of Abraham? Jesus and Muhammad are from the progeny of Abraham and they both prostrated and put their heads on the dust to the same God! If you're 'the sons of Jesus' than you are a Jew and not Christian. Jesus was never himself a Christian, never called himself a Christian nor asked others to call themselves Christians because he was a Jew.

[Supreme]

Brother,

if you know in Islam acceptance of any prophets does NOT make you holy.
Holy God will allow only HOLY person to be in His presence.
How are you going to be holy?
Worship of Allah does NOT save any one. His mercy is SAVING you.

Where is this MERCY in Islam?

There is NO mercy of God in Islam.
Behead unbelievers and enter the paradise says Islam.
Dont behead anyone and HOLY enter the Kingdom of Heaven says God Jesus.
it is TRUE MERCY of TRUE God who is ONE God of Ibrahim.


Is christian God the same way evil like God of Islam?

Is God of Islam MERCY?- Are you forgiven by him?
Is God of Islam your father?- NO. You are slave.



Is God of Ibrahim MERCY?- YES. We are forgiven by His Son Jesus?
Is God of Ibrahim our father?- Yes. He adopted us and called us His Inheritance.


Is any reason left to worship unknown god of Islam?- NO.
Why? Because answer is obvious- he does NOT exist.
What do you think?

God of Ibrahim LOVES you and waits for you!
Bahira

Just a reminder. This is an Islamic forum and any promotion of another religion will (rightfully) result in consequences.

I know how annoying it is, we have people (mostly Muslims, but some others) come onto our christian forums and try and promote their religion. It's annoying.

[_ALI_]

Salam hooreeya

Brother,

if you know in Islam acceptance of any prophets does NOT make you holy.
Holy God will allow only HOLY person to be in His presence.

Where did you get the idea that Holy God will only allow HOLY person in His presence. Satan was in the presence of God once and he certainly is not holy.

Worship of Allah does NOT save any one. His mercy is SAVING you.

I completely agree with you here. God's mercy saves us, not our deeds or beliefs. However, God's mercy does not require a sacrifice of any sort. God can be merciful to whom He wills.

Where is this MERCY in Islam?

There is NO mercy of God in Islam.

Mercy is everywhere in Islam. Every chapter we read of the Quran, we start by reciting
"In the name of God, the most Merciful, the most Compassionate"
God has two names in Islam which depict His mercy i.e Rehmaan and Raheem.

Behead unbelievers and enter the paradise says Islam.

Whoa, where did you get that weird idea? Is that some sort of a joke? The following verses of Quran tell us how to enter paradise.

103.001 وَالْعَصْرِ
103.001 By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),

103.002 إِنَّ الإنْسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ
103.002 Verily Man is in loss,

103.003 إِلا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالْحَقِّ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالصَّبْرِ
103.003 Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

Al-Qur'an, 103.001-003 (Al-Asr [The Declining Day, Eventide, The Epoch])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Dont behead anyone and HOLY enter the Kingdom of Heaven says God Jesus.

Regarding heaven, the verdict of Jesus is similar to that of Islam according to the Bible

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'
Mark 10:17-20
So Jesus said that you have to obey the commandments to get into heaven. He didn't say that you have to believe that I died for your sins to get to heaven. Obey the commandments. And that is what the Quran says.

Is christian God the same way evil like God of Islam?

By calling God evil, I'm sure you'll get a lot of Muslims who want to convert to Christianity :). Brother, it is plain from your post that you have no idea whatsoever about Islam, why do you have to pass such ridiculous remarks? There is no such thing as a Christian God or a Muslim God, there is only one God. But tell me, the "Christian God" as you said, people like Stalin and Hitler will go to heaven because of that "God". Isn't sending murderers like them, who have killed millions of people, to heaven an evil act?

Is God of Islam MERCY?- Are you forgiven by him?

039.053 قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ أَسْرَفُوا عَلَى أَنْفُسِهِمْ لا تَقْنَطُوا مِنْ رَحْمَةِ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيعًا إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ
039.053 Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
039.054 وَأَنِيبُوا إِلَى رَبِّكُمْ وَأَسْلِمُوا لَهُ مِنْ قَبْلِ أَنْ يَأْتِيَكُمُ الْعَذَابُ ثُمَّ لا تُنْصَرُونَ
039.054 "Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will), before the Penalty comes on you: after that ye shall not be helped.
Al-Qur'an, 039.053-054 (Az-Zumar [The Troops, Throngs])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Does that answer your question?

Is God of Islam your father?- NO. You are slave

Let me quote the hadith
Some prisoners were brought to the Messenger of God. Among them was a woman, searching. When she found a child among the prisoners, she took hold of it, pressed it against her chest, and provided it suck. Thereupon the Messenger of God said, “Do you think this woman could ever manage to throw her child into the fire?” We said, “By God, so far as it lies in her power, she would never throw her child into the fire!” The Messenger of God said, “God has more compassion for God’s servants than this woman does for her child.” (Muslim 37:6635)

Is God of Ibrahim MERCY?- YES. We are forgiven by His Son Jesus?

So hitler, Stalin and numerous other Christians who have killed many people and believed that Jesus was crucified for their sins have a free entry into heaven. Islam is different here. Cruel Muslims who believe in Allah don't get free access to heaven.

Is God of Ibrahim our father?- Yes. He adopted us and called us His Inheritance.

If by God of Ibrahim you mean Allah then I totally agree with you, and He didn't need to adopt us, we were His from the start.

Is any reason left to worship unknown god of Islam?- NO.
Why? Because answer is obvious- he does NOT exist.

Funny, that's the reasoning I was going to use to convince you that the God who overlooks crimes committed by human beings and gives them a free pass into heaven cannot exist. God cannot be cruel to overlook guys like Stalin, Bush etc.

God of Ibrahim LOVES you and waits for you!

Right back at ya!
Peace

[Supreme]

So hitler, Stalin and numerous other Christians who have killed many people

Hitler was agnostic, and Stalin was a dedicated atheist.

[islamirama]

Hitler was agnostic....

His mother was a practicing Catholic. In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture, and his belief in the "Aryan" Christ. In a proclamation to the German Nation February 1, 1933 Hitler stated, "The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life. According to Hitler's chief architect Albert Speer, Hitler remained a member, at least formally, of the Catholic Church until his death.

[Grace Seeker]

Regarding heaven, the verdict of Jesus is similar to that of Islam according to the Bible

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'
Mark 10:17-20
So Jesus said that you have to obey the commandments to get into heaven. He didn't say that you have to believe that I died for your sins to get to heaven. Obey the commandments. And that is what the Quran says.

This is not Jesus last word on the subject. This is an answer he gives to a Jew looking for a Jewish answer on how to be saved. And there is nothing wrong with the answer. But don't think that this is all there is. Look what happens next in the story that you've only half finished.

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

The final answer is not found in the commandments. You can do all of this and you would still lack something. Ultimately, one cannot get to heaven without following Jesus. And follow him means what? Well, Jesus answered that question to:

John 15
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

Jesus says that in place of the commands of the old covenant, for those who would be his disciples (which in Mark we learned is the real way to heaven), following Jesus requires a new commandment, and Jesus defines for us what that commandment is -- Jesus' commandment is to love each other as he loved us.

[Grace Seeker]

His mother was a practicing Catholic. In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture, and his belief in the "Aryan" Christ. In a proclamation to the German Nation February 1, 1933 Hitler stated, "The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life. According to Hitler's chief architect Albert Speer, Hitler remained a member, at least formally, of the Catholic Church until his death.

So spoke Hitler the politician, a man who would say anything to get and hold power. Once he had that power, he showed that he was not a Christian, by both his words taking the name Furher (i.e. Savior) and applying it to himself, and his actions to demand that control of the churches in Germany were turned over to him to rule, and in many cases shut down.

If you're going to seriously argue that we are what are mothers were, then remember Muhammad's mother was NOT a Muslim when Muhammad was born.

[Supreme]

His mother was a practicing Catholic. In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture, and his belief in the "Aryan" Christ. In a proclamation to the German Nation February 1, 1933 Hitler stated, "The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life. According to Hitler's chief architect Albert Speer, Hitler remained a member, at least formally, of the Catholic Church until his death.

By professing the Jesus was Aryan should be sufficient evidence to anyone that Hitler was not a Christian. He chose to maintain friendly relations with the Catholic Church because he had seen what Stalin had tried to do with Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia- Stalin had tried to crush it, but the religious foundation was so strong it could be no means be crushed. Instead, Hitler chose to keep friendly with the church (whilst utilising it to fit his own beliefs) in order to keep the majority Christian population of Germany on side. Nevertheless, Hitler's attitudes to Christians were negative. He hated the New Testament's morals, stating the world would fall apart if it lived by them, and is quoted as disliking Christianity's morality. In fact, he's quoted as saying:

"The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness ..."

I think he also said once:

"You are either a German or a Christian. You cannot be both."

[_ALI_]

Hitler was agnostic

Big mistake
In his speeches and publications Hitler spoke of his interpretation of Christianity as a central motivation for his antisemitism, stating that "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice

(from wikipedia)
The guy killed on the basis of religion, isn't it obvious that his inspiration was also religion? Hence as a Christian, Hitler believed that he was killing Jews in the way of defending truth and justice. Now will he go to heaven?

By professing the Jesus was Aryan should be sufficient evidence to anyone that Hitler was not a Christian.

Wait, I thought that to be saved, a Christian had to believe that Jesus died for his sins, not that Jesus was not an Aryan. Are there two conditions to get into heaven i.e believing Jesus died for your sins and believing that Jesus was not an Aryan? Even if I agree with you that according to Hitler, Jesus was Aryan, still, Hitler believed Jesus to be his savior. Now will he get to heaven?

He chose to maintain friendly relations with the Catholic Church because he had seen what Stalin had tried to do with Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia- Stalin had tried to crush it, but the religious foundation was so strong it could be no means be crushed. Instead, Hitler chose to keep friendly with the church (whilst utilising it to fit his own beliefs) in order to keep the majority Christian population of Germany on side. Nevertheless, Hitler's attitudes to Christians were negative

Doesn't change the fact that according to him, Christianity was the central motivation for antisemitism. Don't you think that he believed in the fundamental belief of Christianity that Jesus died for his sins?

He hated the New Testament's morals, stating the world would fall apart if it lived by them, and is quoted as disliking Christianity's morality.

Can't you give a reference? And he did say that Christianity was his central motivation. You can't neglect that.

In fact, he's quoted as saying:

"The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness ..."

And since Hitler was an expert of Islam, we should believe his verdict that Islam was more compatible to his beliefs :) . Now he didn't even know the name of our religion (he called it Muhammadan religion) so what makes him an expert in it?
Peace

[_ALI_]

Salam

This is not Jesus last word on the subject. This is an answer he gives to a Jew looking for a Jewish answer on how to be saved.

Read the verse again.
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
The man didn't say he wanted a Jewish answer. He wanted an answer from Jesus. If he wanted a Jewish answer only, he could have gone to the Jewish scholars.

And there is nothing wrong with the answer. But don't think that this is all there is. Look what happens next in the story that you've only half finished.

Again you must read those verses. When the man asked about heaven and Jesus told him to follow the commandments, he didn't continue and said that believe that I will be crucified for your sins. He stopped talking, meaning that following the commandments is sufficient to get into heaven. The guy then further inquired, and then Jesus said

Quote:
20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

This verse does not say that we will get treasure of heaven if we believe that Jesus was crucified for our sins. It simply says that we should follow Jesus. I completely agree with that. We should follow the prophet and do whatever he said. And instead of saying that I will be crucified for your sins, Jesus said
Mathew 5:17-20
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven

Jesus is telling you that you will never enter heaven if you don't be more righteous than other Jews and don't follow the law like those Jews. How did the "free pass to heaven by believing in crucifixion" came about, I have no idea.

John 15
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

So the verses say that with Jesus, his audience will be saved and without Jesus, his audience won't be saved. I agree with that. At the time of Jesus, he was the only way to get to heaven. But even here, Jesus did not say that I will be crucified for your sins or he did not contradict the fact that he endorsed Jewish law.

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

So here Jesus commanded you to love each other. Before Jesus commanded you to obey Jewish law. Now why can't you do both? Why completely neglect one commandment of Jesus and religiously follow the other? As Jesus said, you can't get to heaven if you don't follow the Jewish laws.

Jesus says that in place of the commands of the old covenant, for those who would be his disciples (which in Mark we learned is the real way to heaven), following Jesus requires a new commandment, and Jesus defines for us what that commandment is -- Jesus' commandment is to love each other as he loved us.

He didn't say that these new commandments have replaced the old ones. He only said love each other. He didn't say love each other and don't obey the Jewish commandments. I have no idea how you inferred that.
Peace

[Grace Seeker]

Salam

Read the verse again.
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
The man didn't say he wanted a Jewish answer. He wanted an answer from Jesus. If he wanted a Jewish answer only, he could have gone to the Jewish scholars.

I don't mean to be rude, but speaking plainly, you don't know what you're talking about. Look at what you yourself quoted, the man refers to Jesus by a title, "good teacher." Jesus was a man who was known to have disciples. The reason he ran into so much conflict with the rabbis and pharisees was because on the one hand he was one of them, but on the other hand he often (not always) brought a different interpretation or emphasis to his teachings than they did.

This verse does not say that we will get treasure of heaven if we believe that Jesus was crucified for our sins.

And I didn't say that that verse did, or even that Jesus ever says that. If you think I did, you're projecting on to me what you have heard other places. We can't continue this conversation until you decide to have it with me and respond to what I say, rather than with some strawman you've invented.

[Supreme]

The guy killed on the basis of religion, isn't it obvious that his inspiration was also religion? Hence as a Christian, Hitler believed that he was killing Jews in the way of defending truth and justice. Now will he go to heaven?

Hitler justified his atrocities on the grounds of nationalism and his past poor experiences with Jews- it wasn't because he was a supposed Christian that he hated the Jews.

Wait, I thought that to be saved, a Christian had to believe that Jesus died for his sins, not that Jesus was not an Aryan. Are there two conditions to get into heaven i.e believing Jesus died for your sins and believing that Jesus was not an Aryan? Even if I agree with you that according to Hitler, Jesus was Aryan, still, Hitler believed Jesus to be his savior. Now will he get to heaven?

Not quite. In addition to believing that Jesus was the Son of God who died for humanity's sins, Christians have to recognize Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. If Christians don't think Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, they may as well pack up and go home and try a different religion, for that is the foundation Christianity was founded on.

Doesn't change the fact that according to him, Christianity was the central motivation for antisemitism. Don't you think that he believed in the fundamental belief of Christianity that Jesus died for his sins?

Not only have you misinterpreted Christian theology, you seem to have reached the conclusion that religion, not nationalism or facism, was Hitler's motivation for the Holocaust. Which is, of course, complete rubbish.

Can't you give a reference?

No, I couldn't find it. Though I could find this:

The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew.

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/adolf_..._quotes3.shtml

And since Hitler was an expert of Islam, we should believe his verdict that Islam was more compatible to his beliefs . Now he didn't even know the name of our religion (he called it Muhammadan religion) so what makes him an expert in it?

Oh absoloutely. But it speaks volumes on Hitler's faith in Christianity, that he'd rather adhere to a religion that he knows nothing about than Christianity.

[Supreme]

Oh, found the quote:

The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.”


http://www.simpletoremember.com/arti...hitler-quotes/

[_ALI_]

Salam Grace Seeker

I don't mean to be rude, but speaking plainly, you don't know what you're talking about. Look at what you yourself quoted, the man refers to Jesus by a title, "good teacher." Jesus was a man who was known to have disciples. The reason he ran into so much conflict with the rabbis and pharisees was because on the one hand he was one of them, but on the other hand he often (not always) brought a different interpretation or emphasis to his teachings than they did.

I still don't understand how referring to Jesus as "teacher" means that the guy wanted a Jewish answer. But suppose that he did want a Jewish answer of getting into heaven, so according to Christianity, isn't Jewish answer wrong? So the guy asked Jesus how can I get to heaven and Jesus gave a wrong answer (obey the commandments) which won't get him to heaven. Why would Jesus do that and ruin the guy's afterlife? He could have easily said that: Believe that I'm God and I will be crucified for your sins, and the guy could have gone to heaven. But assuming that you are right, why did Jesus tell that person something that won't send him to heaven?
The fact is, Jesus truly believed that obeying the commandments will get you to heaven.

And I didn't say that that verse did, or even that Jesus ever says that. If you think I did, you're projecting on to me what you have heard other places. We can't continue this conversation until you decide to have it with me and respond to what I say, rather than with some strawman you've invented

Well, I also never said that you said that the verse tells us to believe Jesus will be crucified for Christian's sins. I never projected that on you. But I was assuming that according to Christianity, the only way to get to heaven is to believe that Jesus was crucified for Christian's sins. Now if I ask a priest: How will I get to heaven, he'll say : Believe that Jesus was crucified for your sins. Now if I ask a pope: How will I get to heaven, he'll say : Believe that Jesus was crucified for your sins. But if I ask Jesus: How will I get to heaven, he'll say : keep the commandments. I only wanted to show you the contrast between the belief of Christians and the belief of Jesus according to the Bible.
Peace

[_ALI_]

Salam Supreme

Hitler justified his atrocities on the grounds of nationalism and his past poor experiences with Jews- it wasn't because he was a supposed Christian that he hated the Jews.

Let's see how hitler justified his atrocities
In his speeches and publications Hitler spoke of his interpretation of Christianity as a central motivation for his antisemitism, stating that "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
Tell me, how does hitler justify his crimes?

Not only have you misinterpreted Christian theology, you seem to have reached the conclusion that religion, not nationalism or facism, was Hitler's motivation for the Holocaust. Which is, of course, complete rubbish

Read the quote above. Hitler himself tells us what his motivation is.

Oh absoloutely. But it speaks volumes on Hitler's faith in Christianity, that he'd rather adhere to a religion that he knows nothing about than Christianity.

Hitler didn't say that he would rather adhere to Islam due to its alleged compatibility, he only said that he admired Islam due to its alleged compatibility. I personally admire Christianity but that does not mean that I want to be a Christian.
Now let's discuss whether Hitler is a Christian or not. Some Hitler quotes
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65.
“I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .
Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. )

“The anti-Semitism of the new [Christian Social] movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 119. )
“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. )
You can find more here
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

These quotes unambiguously tell us that Hitler believed that Jesus was his savior and his sole inspiration was Christianity. But what about those two quotes you gave? Well either those are wrong or the ones I quoted are wrong. As you can see, all the ones I quoted are from a speech and are public statements. As for the two quotes you gave, both have the same source and were not stated in public. You can judge for yourself that which ones are more authentic.
Anyway, my initial point was that even a rapist, mass murderer, drug dealer who believes that Jesus was crucified for his sins will go to heaven. Is that right? This is the main question for which I really want an answer.
Peace

[ccc]

"Hitler the Christian?
"Some people seem to neglect the fact that a person can “claim” to be whatever they please while this claim may have nothing at all to do with reality. Let us consider some instances, quoted by Prof. Richard Dawkins, when Hitler professed his belief in God and Jesus as a Catholic-Christian."
Hitler could have constantly claimed that he was a Christian. He could have claimed to be serving not just any god but the God of the Bible. He could have attended church every day of his life. He could have claimed to be doing what he was doing in the name of Jesus Christ. He could have even prophesied, exorcised and performed miracles. All of this and more would not prove in the least bit that he was a Christian. He could claim it from the roof tops, he could even do the song and dance of religious routines but in the end we know him by his fruits. Jesus and the apostles/disciples never even came close to doing anything that Hitler did, thus he was not following orthodox, plain, clear, biblical, Christian teachings.
Imagine for a moment if Hitler was a Christian, this would mean that the world’s most infamous anti-Semite worshiped a Jewish man as Messiah, Lord, God and Savior. Is it any wonder that Prof. Richard Dawkins wrote, “Hitler, oddly, was always adamant that Jesus himself was not a Jew.”[3] Indeed, whenever “Christians” have demonstrated anti-Semitism it has been with denials of plain facts and plain reading of the Bible that are about as outlandish and unorthodox as Hitler’s denial that Jesus was Jewish."
Hitler the Anti-Christian!
Now that we have considered some examples of Hitler’s claims of being a theist/Catholic/Christian let us view the other side of the coin.

Hitler stated,
“When understanding of the universe has become widespread…Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.”[11]

Prof. Richard Dawkins provides the following quotes from a 1941 Table Talk by Hitler:
“The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity…
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised [sic] against the disease.”[12]

Prof. Richard Dawkins then states, “Hitler’s Table Talk contains more quotations like those.”

At this point in Prof. Richard Dawkins’ book he experiences a rare, sadly a very rare, moment of clarity when for a brief moment he is able to view the evidence from both sides (of Hitler’s mouth) and come to a solidly lucid conclusion about Hitler (although his overall conclusion is faulty, as we shall see). While this conclusion is in no ways unique to Prof. Richard Dawkins, as it would be obvious to any researcher, it is a bitter sweet occasion. This is because it truly is a very brief and unique accomplishment that occurs perhaps no more than this one single time and only within the very narrow confines of his convenient discussion of Hitler. Were he able to muster this level of emotional self control and rational conclusion more often The God Delusion would certainly be a more interesting, more scholarly, more useful book for both sides of the atheism theism discussion.

The lucidity is in concluding that, as I will state it, Hitler’s personality is about as complex a concoction as Nazism itself which, the aforementioned, Claire Hulme and Dr. Michael Salter referred to as the “chaotic irrationality of the Third Reich.”[13] Hitler believed in animal rights but slaughtered human beings by the millions. He detested smoking but cremated millions of his victims. Both his personality and his beliefs were a cacophonous chaotic concoction.

Prof. Richard Dawkins writes the following,
“Or is the resolution of the contradictions simply that he was an opportunistic liar whose words cannot be trusted, in either direction?”[14]

Indeed, Hitler appears to be schizophrenic, politically opportunistic or both. He said whatever was convenient to his final solution at any given time."
from http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/20...part-3-of.html
you should know that christians from my country consider hitler a forerunner of Antichrist

[freethinking]

Jesus was only Jewiish in respect of being born from the line of david through the woman who gave immaculate birth to him as a man on Earth and he only referred to her as " woman" never as mother for it was God's oly spirit that put him in her womb not by anything she did.
Jesus did however teach non jews as well as some jews but also showed that not al jews really understoon scripture particualrly the jewish leaders of the time.

I am confused to read that Muhammed is also from the line of Abraham as his geneoogy does not go back nearly far enough to establish that and I thought it was only abrahamic because like Jews and Christians, muslims believe in one God.The quran also sadly does not appear to really understand the Holy Spirit of God as far as I have seen

Peace and God's blessings be upon you

[Predator]

he only referred to her as " woman" never as mother for it was God's oly spirit that put him in her womb not by anything she did

What kind of man/ Prophet /God/ would calls his mother "WOMAN" JOHN 2:4, the same manner in
which he addresses a prostitute, ". . . WOMAN where are those
thine accusers in John 8:10

Even I would never call my own mother as "woman" and i just cant believe that one of my most revered Prophets would have addressed his mother in such a disgraceful manner

I am confused to read that Muhammed is also from the line of Abraham as his geneoogy does not go back nearly far enough to establish that

Muhammad (PBUH) is from the line of Ishmael who is one of two sons of Abraham as you know

The quran also sadly does not appear to really understand the Holy Spirit of God as far as I have seen

According to the Quran , The Holy spirit is a title given to the Archangel Gabriel who is the angel of revealation just like the "Messiah" is a title given to Jesus, "Khalil "(Friend) is a title given to Abraham and "the Seal of the Prophets" given to Muhammad (PBUH)

Quran is very clear in denouncing Trinity (5:73) and affirming the Oneness of God Almighty. (112:1-4). The Holy Spirit in the Quran is clearly defined as the angel Gabriel who has been the angel between The Almighty God and the human beings,

016.102
YUSUFALI: Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.


So the Holy spirit has brought down the Quran to the prophet Muhammad, this is non other than the angel Gabriel, this is what the Quran says concerning Gabriel :

002.097
YUSUFALI: Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-

So as you can see the Holy spirit can be non other than the angel Gabriel , the Holy spirit brings down the revelation which strengthens and guides the believers, the angel Gabriel brings down the revelation which strengthens and guides the believers! Hence the Holy Spirit is Gabriel and Gabriel is the Holy spirit!

Thus Holy spirit in Islam is not a fiction of polytheist imagination depicted by a dove as a 3rd person of the senseless pagan trinity doctrine .

[Grace Seeker]

What kind of man/ Prophet /God/ would calls his mother "WOMAN" JOHN 2:4, the same manner in
which he addresses a prostitute, ". . . WOMAN where are those
thine accusers in John 8:10

Even I would never call my own mother as "woman" and i just cant believe that one of my most revered Prophets would have addressed his mother in such a disgraceful manner

But, then again, you weren't raised in the same culture that Jesus was. Jesus' way of addressing his mother is fully in keeping with the culture from which he came.

Thus Holy spirit in Islam is not a fiction of polytheist imagination depicted by a dove as a 3rd person of the senseless pagan trinity doctrine .

And the Holy Spirit in Christianity is not a fictional being nor is our asserition of his existence derived from pagan doctrine. The following are references to the Holy Spirit found in the Hebrew Bible:

1. Psalm 51:11
   Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
   
2. Isaiah 63:10
   Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.
   
3. Isaiah 63:11
   Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

[freethinking]

What kind of man/ Prophet /God/ would calls his mother "WOMAN" JOHN 2:4, the same manner in
which he addresses a prostitute, ". . . WOMAN where are those
thine accusers in John 8:10

Even I would never call my own mother as "woman" and i just cant believe that one of my most revered Prophets would have addressed his mother in such a disgraceful manner

Jsus called her "woman for she was human and not truely his mother as he came from above. Gabriel is in no sense the Hoy Spirit in the Bible but can be used by God as a messanger as other angels are too to help people stay away from sin;but profound lessons come fromGod's Holy Spirit not an angel. Satan was an angelk before his fall for example and angels are not as powerful as people.

Bless you



Muhammad (PBUH) is from the line of Ishmael who is one of two sons of Abraham as you know
All I know from the Bible is that it only covers Ishmeal down to his own children and there are nomore references to that Child of Abrahm in the Bible.

I have also read that Muhammed PBUH did resist attemts to have his ancestors traced beyond a few generations.
It also strikes me as suprising that the Line of prophets and holy people from Abraham onwards go through Issac, Jacob ( the Father of the Twelve tribes); Moses; Joshua,; Gideon; Samson; Samual; David; Solomon; Johah; Amos; Issiah; Joel; Hoshea; Micah; Zephania; Jerremiah; Habakkuk; Daniel; Ezekial; Haggia; Zephania.
That is just up to 500 BC, Then: Nehemiah; Malachi.
Then: the Greek Bible (Septuagint) was translated at Alexandria, in Egypt by 70 Hebrew scholars. This translation was authorized by the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem in order to give Jewish exiles a scripture in the language of their exile; Followed by Maccabees;
Then: John the Baptist and finally Jesus.




According to the Quran , The Holy spirit is a title given to the Archangel Gabriel who is the angel of revealation just like the "Messiah" is a title given to Jesus, "Khalil "(Friend) is a title given to Abraham and "the Seal of the Prophets" given to Muhammad (PBUH)

Quran is very clear in denouncing Trinity (5:73) and affirming the Oneness of God Almighty. (112:1-4). The Holy Spirit in the Quran is clearly defined as the angel Gabriel who has been the angel between The Almighty God and the human beings,

016.102
YUSUFALI: Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.


So the Holy spirit has brought down the Quran to the prophet Muhammad, this is non other than the angel Gabriel, this is what the Quran says concerning Gabriel :

002.097
YUSUFALI: Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-

So as you can see the Holy spirit can be non other than the angel Gabriel , the Holy spirit brings down the revelation which strengthens and guides the believers, the angel Gabriel brings down the revelation which strengthens and guides the believers! Hence the Holy Spirit is Gabriel and Gabriel is the Holy spirit!

Thus Holy spirit in Islam is not a fiction of polytheist imagination depicted by a dove as a 3rd person of the senseless pagan trinity doctrine .

Whio said anything about a dove and how does Gods Holy Spirit come to us whilst God remains in in Heaven. I repeat angels bring messages for individuals and Gabriel is an angel with respect.
GOD BLESS YOU

[Predator]

But, then again, you weren't raised in the same culture that Jesus was. Jesus' way of addressing his mother is fully in keeping with the culture from which he came.

You're right , by the biblical for someone who came from the culture of riding little cherubs and then ordering the killing of women and children . i shouldnt have expected good behavior and he even ignored a Gentile women begging for help:

(Mark 7:25-28)
For a [certain] woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] unto the dogs.
And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

And the Holy Spirit in Christianity is not a fictional being nor is our asserition of his existence derived from pagan doctrine.

Whio said anything about a dove

Then why do draw out pictures of a dove which clear violates one of your lord's commandment .Its the pagans who draw pictures of god

8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Satan was an angelk before his fall for example and angels are not as powerful as people.

Satan was a djinn(demon) and not an angel .Angels obey whatever god tell them and they do not have a free will like human and Demons .

[Grace Seeker]

Then why do draw out pictures of a dove which clear violates one of your lord's commandment .Its the pagans who draw pictures of god

8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

I would suggest that attempting to draw a picture of an event that took place in scripture be it Moses standing before the burning bush or the Holy Spirit coming down in the form of a dove is NOT a violation of the commandment to not make an idol.

Idols are things that substitute in the place of a god. A picture is not a substitute for God. It is not worshipped as a god, and it certainly is not understood to be God. If anyone treats a picture in those ways that would be wrong. But the mere creation of a picture as part of story telling is no more wrong than how you yourself copied that dove onto this page, and the drawing of a picture or making of a statue (as long as not used for worship) as an object of art is no more wrong than the decoration of a mosque with geometeric designs.

[Trumble]

Salam Supreme

Let's see how hitler justified his atrocities
In his speeches and publications Hitler spoke of his interpretation of Christianity as a central motivation for his antisemitism, stating that "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
Tell me, how does hitler justify his crimes?

Read the quote above. Hitler himself tells us what his motivation is.

Were you so busy trying to justify this twaddle that you forgot to actually read the article you cite?

In the political relations with the churches in Germany however, Hitler readily adopted a strategy "that suited his immediate political purposes".[314] Hitler had a general plan, even before the rise of the Nazis to power, to destroy Christianity within the Reich.[317][318][319] The leader of the Hitler Youth stated "the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement" from the start, but "considerations of expedience made it impossible" publicly to express this extreme position.[317]

[ccc]

how can i delete my account? if there s any moderator here please delete my account if you can. thank you.