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Bungy Dude
03-01-2010, 10:59 PM
as the title says, am I right in thinking, the above statement is true. When out shopping I usually just check for the vegetarian logo and assume its halal.

However, I have also in the past seen the V logo on bread but seen the E471 additive which I believe to be haraam.

Can anyone clarify please, thanks
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zakirs
03-02-2010, 04:46 PM
Since i live in india and majority of indians are strict-vegs (not even egg allowed ), I assume [veg] as halal.If some one can clarify the above Q it will help me too.

TIA
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Esther462
03-02-2010, 04:54 PM
I think if it's suitable for vegetarians, it is halal. I buy a lot of vergetarian food so I think it's ok.
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Sampharo
03-02-2010, 05:21 PM
E-471 has fatty acids which are derived from animals. It is basically mono and di-glyceroid and is not suitable for vegetarians unless specifically tells that it is derived from plant fat. If it's not made of plant fat it's almost always made of pork fat.

Unless you know where it comes from (halal or kosher or sure it is plant fat), vast majority of scholars said it is haram.

Wallahu 'AAlam

http://www.veggieglobal.com/nutritio...-additives.htm
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Life_Is_Short
03-02-2010, 05:23 PM
Yes, but you have to check for wine. Wine is suitable for vegetarians but Haraam.
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Bungy Dude
03-02-2010, 08:28 PM
[QUOTE=Sampharo;1300503]E-471 has fatty acids which are derived from animals. It is basically mono and di-glyceroid and is not suitable for vegetarians unless specifically tells that it is derived from plant fat. If it's not made of plant fat it's almost always made of pork fat.

Would that mean the E471 I saw on the bread with the V logo is actually from plant or would they still use the pork fat and still class it as suitable for veg?
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Sampharo
03-03-2010, 12:14 PM
^ If they put V on it then most likely they used plant oil extracted glycerin to make it, what is considered "kosher" glycerin. They make it out of palm oil extract. So it really depends on whether the V is from a professional board that cares about what vegetarians eat, or is it from the bakery itself who don't know that some E-471 could be extracted from animals.

I would say ask them if they are aware that some E-471 is extracted from pork, and if they say yes and they use plant based, then it is good to eat.

Some people might suggest that you shouldn't because what if they turned out to have lied about it. However that is not necessary to go that far, as first of all you still made your best effort to eat halal and there is no sin if you were given wrong information. Second, the prophet -s.a.a.w.- told his companions they can eat food from jews and christians if they tell them they slaughtered it and mentioned God's name on it, and told Aisha -r.a.a.- that if she is given meat from the people of the book and they don't say whether it was slaughtered properly or not, to just say the name of God on it herself and eat it without a problem.

Wallahu 'AAlam
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muslimsister1
03-03-2010, 12:46 PM
:sl:

Is the above true brother? i live in the uk and latley they has been a lot of issue regarding meat, this is due to firm who are operating as HMC (Halal Monitoring), basically these are people who provide chicken to meat shops where it has been slaughtered properly EG with Bismillah on each chicken. Now the shops which do not sell HMC certified chicken are deemed as haram but these ar muslim brothers shops, surley they would not sell haram meat? i mean what about the times before this HMC came into place, no-one questioned anything then but now its like if its not HMC certified it is haram, im not saying that HMC are wrong or anything, but iv herd ppl sya its a money making scheme, but how do we start to defreintate between it all? my husband beleives that as a muslim meat shop owner it is their responsibility to provide halal meat, and if we start questioning evrything the we would not be able to eat from anywhere. Im jst confused about it all and always questiong this.

:wa:
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Salahudeen
03-03-2010, 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by muslimsister1
:sl:

Is the above true brother? i live in the uk and latley they has been a lot of issue regarding meat, this is due to firm who are operating as HMC (Halal Monitoring), basically these are people who provide chicken to meat shops where it has been slaughtered properly EG with Bismillah on each chicken. Now the shops which do not sell HMC certified chicken are deemed as haram but these ar muslim brothers shops, surley they would not sell haram meat? i mean what about the times before this HMC came into place, no-one questioned anything then but now its like if its not HMC certified it is haram, im not saying that HMC are wrong or anything, but iv herd ppl sya its a money making scheme, but how do we start to defreintate between it all? my husband beleives that as a muslim meat shop owner it is their responsibility to provide halal meat, and if we start questioning evrything the we would not be able to eat from anywhere. Im jst confused about it all and always questiong this.



:wa:

Assalamu alaikum

One must first assess the situation. Providing halal chicken in the uk is a big demand. In Birmingham alone the demand of 200,000 chickens is required every week. Logistically it is impossible to slaughter chickens in the halal way within this time. Hence mechanical slaughter and stunning is done to provide a faster service.

It is unanimous that these forms of speeding the process are haraam. Hence organisations like HMC are needed to bring a equilibrium and they are a well recognised halal authority.

Seriously I have been to shops to ask our muslim brothers where have you got your meat and chicken.... the reply "I don't know but it is halal.

Looking from shariah this is not acceptable. As far as you know you can put a pig's head for sale and say it is halal and you can get away with it.

Trust me this has been done. So we do need regulators to sort this big issue.

A narration that comes to mind , to the nearest affect.

Hardhrat Abu Bakr (r.a) had a slave who used to bring food for himmself after his days work. He would always offer Abu Bakr (r.a) food but he would refuse.

One day the slave offered again and this time Abu Bakr had not eaten anything during the day, so he agreed and they both began to eat.

Out of courtesy Abu Bakr (r.a) asked the slave where did you manage to get this food. The slave replied " before imbracing Islam I used to be a magician and someone owed me some money and he just paid me now.

Abu Bakr (r.a) stopped eating the food and he began to put his finger in his mouth and started to vomit out what he ate.

The food was considered harram because of the haraam income used to buy it.

This shows you the importance of Halal and haram.

Abu Bakr was the best creation after the prophets hence look at our situation now.

If someone says its halal..oh it halal, don't worry bro he said its halal, it's on his head.

So we need to take this seriously
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Sampharo
03-03-2010, 02:33 PM
i live in the uk and latley they has been a lot of issue regarding meat, this is due to firm who are operating as HMC (Halal Monitoring), basically these are people who provide chicken to meat shops where it has been slaughtered properly EG with Bismillah on each chicken. Now the shops which do not sell HMC certified chicken are deemed as haram
I don't know about HMC and I didn't quite understand everything in the post. It's better to ask a scholar from your country who will be aware of local issues to advise you on HMC.

What I am gathering though is that you are saying this HMC company is claiming its meat and ONLY its meat is Halal, and all else is not. Well I recently read in another thread (KFC Halal?) on this forum that there are two companies, and one of them was accepting stunned chickens as halal. Stunned chickens are not halal by vast majority of scholars, and hence maybe that is what these guys meant. If the story is confirmed (that they stun chickens) and people now know, it is no longer permissible to eat such chickens.

Otherwise, for them to claim all other meat and chicken is not halal requires evidence. If muslims in their shops are properly slaughtering their own chickens or cattle and mentioning God's name on it, then these are of course halal. If halal meat or chickens are unavailable, kosher meat is a permissible option. Be aware though that this does NOT include all kosher processed food, as it does not necessarily mean it is clear of alcohol and other haram, but kosher fresh meat and chickens are slaughtered and have the name of God mentioned upon it, and is regarded permissible to eat in Islam. "Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put you to difficulties."[2:185]

Check this article: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503547478

Wallahu 'AAlam

Originally Posted by squiggle
Seriously I have been to shops to ask our muslim brothers where have you got your meat and chicken.... the reply "I don't know but it is halal.
Oh most certainly correct it is not right then to just buy it blindly. A person needs to exert his effort and make ijtihad into exhausting his ability to find out, and if something is so unknown and you get it in a country where food companies are neither jewish nor christian and are NOT slaughtering their livestock by default, then it is obvious that the meat is not to be trusted. What the hadith mentioned means if you receive meat from jews or original christians who abide by the same rules as muslims and worship God and slaughter their own food, then it is ok to accept it on good faith. Buying something from someone who doesn't know where his product came from is of course different and does not satisfy ijtihad efforts.

Bungy Dude's question was about vegetarian bread, and if he checks with the bakery about the E-471 and they say they know it is vegetable extract, then it is ok to consume based on Islamic evidence and scholarly opinions. Wallahu 'AAlam
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ha94550
03-07-2010, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by Sampharo
Otherwise, for them to claim all other meat and chicken is not halal requires evidence. If muslims in their shops are properly slaughtering their own chickens or cattle and mentioning God's name on it, then these are of course halal. If halal meat or chickens are unavailable, kosher meat is a permissible option. Be aware though that this does NOT include all kosher processed food, as it does not necessarily mean it is clear of alcohol and other haram, but kosher fresh meat and chickens are slaughtered and have the name of God mentioned upon it, and is regarded permissible to eat in Islam. "Allah intends every facility for you; He does not want to put you to difficulties."[2:185]

Check this article: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503547478

Wallahu 'AAlam



Oh most certainly correct it is not right then to just buy it blindly. A person needs to exert his effort and make ijtihad into exhausting his ability to find out, and if something is so unknown and you get it in a country where food companies are neither jewish nor christian and are NOT slaughtering their livestock by default, then it is obvious that the meat is not to be trusted. What the hadith mentioned means if you receive meat from jews or original christians who abide by the same rules as muslims and worship God and slaughter their own food, then it is ok to accept it on good faith. Buying something from someone who doesn't know where his product came from is of course different and does not satisfy ijtihad efforts.

Bungy Dude's question was about vegetarian bread, and if he checks with the bakery about the E-471 and they say they know it is vegetable extract, then it is ok to consume based on Islamic evidence and scholarly opinions. Wallahu 'AAlam
Assalamualaikum brother,

Actually, contrary to popular belief, kosher meat does not have the name of God blessing the meat. It is cut to a particular standard and cut the same way we cut our meat though. That is why it is halal/permissible to eat if there is no halal meat shop.

In regards to questioning our Muslim brothers that own these Halal meat stores... we should not do so. If they say it is Halal, then it is between him and Allah at that point and let it be dealt with as such. If you must really do so, tell him that before so that he can check his sources. I've seen places that have been shut down when they have been buying halal meat but due to cultural differences, have not been able to communicate so (such as halal Chinese restaurants, halal burger places, etc...). I had to go out of the way and prove that they did and the place where they get their meat from confirmed it was their Halal meat and not some Safeway/Walmart branded meat.
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Hamza Asadullah
03-21-2010, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by muslimsister1
:sl:

Is the above true brother? i live in the uk and latley they has been a lot of issue regarding meat, this is due to firm who are operating as HMC (Halal Monitoring), basically these are people who provide chicken to meat shops where it has been slaughtered properly EG with Bismillah on each chicken. Now the shops which do not sell HMC certified chicken are deemed as haram but these ar muslim brothers shops, surley they would not sell haram meat? i mean what about the times before this HMC came into place, no-one questioned anything then but now its like if its not HMC certified it is haram, im not saying that HMC are wrong or anything, but iv herd ppl sya its a money making scheme, but how do we start to defreintate between it all? my husband beleives that as a muslim meat shop owner it is their responsibility to provide halal meat, and if we start questioning evrything the we would not be able to eat from anywhere. Im jst confused about it all and always questiong this.

:wa:
:sl: My sister in regards to "so called halal food" we have to be very careful about what we eat. Most chicken in this country (UK) has been stunned and therefore results in the chicken being either severely brain damaged or dead before slaughter and one of the rules for Islamic slaughter is that the animal should be in good healthy condition prior to slaughter and with stunned chicken it is very uncertain how many chickens actually die from stunning before slaughter.

Many slaughter houses also think it is sufficient to have "Bismillah" playing on a tape player in the background and think that this is sufficient when slaughtering an animal.

Many also have "Bismillah" written on a knife or a saw and think that this is also sufficient when slaughtering an animal. So they don't even repeat the words just have the words stuck on a knife or saw or playing in the background on a tape player.

These practices are contrary to Islamic slaughter, how can we accept this to be the Islamic way of slaughtering a chicken? The Islamic way of slaughter can NEVER be comprimised especially because of profit maximisation. Do they not fear that Allah is watching them?

Sister you have the wrong understanding of what HMC do, they do not provide chicken, what they do is actively send out monitors and inspectors to meat slaughter houses to check if they are slaughtering meat in accordance with Islamic slaughter methods. They do these inspections randomly. So if a shop, butchers or supplier want to be certified then HMC would have to check that all of their meat supply is sourced from places which implement Islamically correct way of slaughtering.

Currently in the UK they are the only Halal Islamic food authority that actively send out monitors and inspectors to these slaughter houses to ensure that proper Islamic methods of slaughter are being implemented. This company is a God send and they are very active in sending out inspectors and monitors to inspect all premises that they certify in the UK and they do their research to as well as having various scholars on the board when they need advice on complicated matters.

No other halal food agency does any of that. One of the worst of all are HFA or in other words Haram food authority who have NO checks or inspectors or monitors but will stamp the halal stamp anyway. I've talked to them on many occassions and i would tell all from the UK NEVER to trust that agency!

I'm not saying that any chicken that is not certified HMC is haraam but what i am saying is that at least if we know the chicken we are eating is certified by HMC then we know for sure that it is definatley halal as it gives that peace of mind. Otherwise at least ask those places or research their sources into how they slaughter their chicken.

The typical excuse people will find is if it says halal then we should trust them. That may be the case if one was not aware of this issue but now that we are all aware of how chicken is being slaughtered how can we use this excuse?

Another thing you will hear people say is that HMC do it for money because they want people to buy their meat. But they don't provide meat they just certify it. Also they are a non profit making organisation so that certainly refutes that claim.

It is our duty as Muslims to ensure that what goes into our stomachs is proper halal food otherwise we risk rejection of our dua's and good deeds by polluting ourselves with haraam. This is a question of our imaan and we must have fear never to put haraam into our bodys. Are we not worried that our duas and good deeds may not be accepted? We know full well that if we are not careful with what we put into our bodys then we could be consuming haraam. We do not want to pollute our bodys.

So let us be very careful of what we eat and research and make sure that the meat we buy particularly chicken is properly slaughtered in accordance with Islamic slaughter methods. We must not have th attitude that if it says halal then its halal because we are fully aware that what these people who slaughter in this way consider halal is NOT considered halal and this is the consensus of Ulema of Islam. Therefore we must be very careful from now on in regards to the chicken we buy.

If you want more information on the matter then there is plenty on their website and you can even ring them if you want and they will explain further inshallah.

http://www.halalmc.net/

:wa:
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cat eyes
03-21-2010, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by Bungy Dude
as the title says, am I right in thinking, the above statement is true. When out shopping I usually just check for the vegetarian logo and assume its halal.

However, I have also in the past seen the V logo on bread but seen the E471 additive which I believe to be haraam.

Can anyone clarify please, thanks
i sometimes follow the v logo too but i still read the ingredients also e471 is not only from meat though.. it can come from plant also so thats where more then likely it comes from because there food products can get taken off the shelfs for lying to there customers.. and if thats the truth that they are lying then how can it be a sin on us?

E471

Mono- and diglycerides of fatty acids (E471) is a food additive.
These synthetic fats are produced from glycerol and natural fatty acids, from either plant or animal origin. E471 is generally a mixture of several products, and its composition is similar to partially digested natural fat.
Concern for vegetarians and vegans

E471 is mainly produced from vegetable oils, although animal fats are sometimes used and cannot be completely excluded as being present in the product. The fatty acids from each source are chemically identical. However, vegetarians and vegans, not wishing to consume any animal products, generally avoid products containing E471 unless they are certain that it is derived from vegetable oils. Also, because there is a risk of pork fat being present, Muslims and Jews will also avoid products containing E471 unless they know that it is made from vegetable oils.
:wa:
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Bungy Dude
03-21-2010, 04:51 PM
Hi

I found this organisation which gives you an answer to whether the product you are having is halal or haraam. One thing to be aware of is a company may have various flavours of the same product but they may not all be halal.

http://www.gmwa.org.uk/foodguide2/index.php

Cats eyes, apart from looking out for the E471, are there any other ingredients you look out for after even after observing the V logo?
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Insaanah
03-21-2010, 08:30 PM
:sl:

Apple juice, in particular clear apple juice is one to be really careful of. It's always marked suitable for vegetarians, and it sounds so innocent, it's just pure clear apple juice, right? It has to be halal.

Wrong. It isn't always halal.

Many Muslims think if a food product does not contain animal derived ingredients and no alcohol, it is okay to eat. This is not true because many food products contain hidden ingredients which are haram. Take the example of apple juice. It is made from the halal apple and the ingredients statement says it is 100% apple juice. However, during the processing of apple juice , the colloidal material and coarse suspended solids cause cloudiness to apple juice. In order to make apple juice clear, a clarification process is needed. Pork or beef gelatin tannin precipitation is used for this clarification. Many apple juice producers still use this method.

The company will say that their apple juice does not contain animal derived ingredients and alcohol. However, the pork gelatin-tannin is a processing aid ingredient or hidden ingredient. This juice becomes haram because of contamination/contact with pork gelatin. Only halal or kosher certified apple juice is halal because both certifications protect Muslims from haram ingredients.

Source: http://www.muslimconsumergroup.com/E...il&eventId=332

So with apple juice, you have to contact the company and ask what type of gelatin was used.

:sl:
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