PDA

View Full Version : found this great article on homosexuals on a catholic site of all places



جوري
03-11-2010, 12:47 AM
‘Gay marriage’ and homosexuality: Some medical comments

JOHN SHEA, M.D., JOHN WILSON, M.D., ET. AL. The media portrays the homosexual lifestyle and relationships as happy, healthy and stable. However, the homosexual lifestyle is associated with a large number of very serious physical and emotional health consequences. In addition, many 'committed' homosexual relationships only last a few years raising doubts about whether children raised in same-sex households are being raised in a protective environment.

Notice to Reader: "The Boards of both CERC Canada and CERC USA are aware that the topic of homosexuality is a controversial one that deeply affects the personal lives of many North Americans. Both Boards strongly reiterate the Catechism's teaching that people who self-identify as gays and lesbians must be treated with 'respect, compassion, and sensitivity' (CCC #2358). The Boards also support the Church's right to speak to aspects of this issue in accordance with her own self-understanding. Articles in this section have been chosen to cast light on how the teachings of the Church intersect with the various social, moral, and legal developments in secular society. CERC will not publish articles which, in the opinion of the editor, expose gays and lesbians to hatred or intolerance."



Despite the impression given by the media, the actual number of homosexuals is quite small. Essentially all surveys show the number of homosexuals to be only 1-3% of the population. The number of homosexuals living in 'common law partnerships' is even less, only 0.5% of all couples. This contrasts with 70% of all households with a married couple. The pressure for introducing same-sex marriages comes from a very small section of society.
  • According to Statistics Canada, 1.3% of men and 0.7% of women considered themselves to be homosexual.

  • Recent studies in many different countries show that the prevalence of homosexuality is less than 3% of the population: In a US study, the prevalence of homosexuality was estimated to be 2.1% of men and 1.5% of women. (Gilman SE. Am J Public Health. 2001; 91: 933-9.) Another US study estimated the prevalence of the adult lesbian population to be 1.87% (Aaron DJ et al. J Epidemiol Community Health. 2003; 57: 207-9.) In a recent British survey, 2.8% of men were classified as homosexuals (Mercer CH et al. AIDS. 2004; 18: 1453-8). In a recent Dutch study 2.8% of men and 1.4% women had had same-sex partners. (Sandfort TG et al. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001; 58 :85-91.) In a New Zealand study, 2.8% of young adults were classified as homosexual or bisexual. (Fergusson DM et al. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1999; 56: 876-80)

  • In 2001, there were just over 8.3 million families in Canada, of which nearly 6 million (70%) were married couples and 1.1 million common-law couples. The 2001 Census was the first to provide data on same-sex partnerships. A total of 34,200 couples (or 0.5% of all couples) identified themselves as same-sex common-law couples. (www.statcan.ca/Daily/ English/021022/d021022a.htm)

2. Health risks of the homosexual lifestyle.
The media portrays the homosexual lifestyle and relationships as happy, healthy and stable. However, the homosexual lifestyle is associated with a large number of very serious physical and emotional health consequences. Many 'committed' homosexual relationships only last a few years. This raises doubts as to whether children raised in same-sex households are being raised in a protective environment.
A. There are very high rates of sexual promiscuity among the homosexual population with short duration of even 'committed' relationships.

  • A study of homosexual men shows that more than 75% of homosexual men admitted to having sex with more than 100 different males in their lifetime: approximately 15% claimed to have had 100-249 sex partners, 17% claimed 250-499, 15% claimed 500-999 and 28% claimed more than 1,000 lifetime sexual partners. (Bell AP, Weinberg MS. Homosexualities. New York 1978).

  • Promiscuity among lesbian women is less extreme, but is still higher than among heterosexual women. Many 'lesbian' women also have sex with men. Lesbian women were more than 4 times as likely to have had more than 50 lifetime male partners than heterosexual women. (Fethers K et al. Sexually transmitted infections and risk behaviours in women who have sex with women. Sexually Transmitted Infections 2000; 76: 345-9.)

  • Far higher rates of promiscuity are observed even within 'committed' gay relationships than in heterosexual marriage: In Holland, male homosexual relationships last, on average, 1.5 years, and gay men have an average of eight partners a year outside of their supposedly “committed” relationships. (Xiridou M, et al. The contribution of steady and casual partnerships to the incidence of HIV infection among homosexual men in Amsterdam. AIDS. 2003; 17: 1029-38.) Gay men have sex with someone other than their primary partner in 66% of relationships within the first year, rising to 90% of relationships after five years. (Harry J. Gay Couples. New York. 1984)

  • In an online survey among nearly 8,000 homosexuals, 71% of same-sex relationships lasted less than eight years. Only 9% of all same-sex relationships lasted longer than 16 years. (2003-2004 Gay & Lesbian Consumer Online Census; www.glcensus.org)

  • The high rates of promiscuity are not surprising: Gay authors admit that 'gay liberation was founded … on a sexual brotherhood of promiscuity.' (Rotello G. Sexual Ecology. New York 1998)

B. Among homosexuals, highly risky sexual practices such as anal sex are very common.

  • The majority of homosexual men (60%) engage in anal sex, frequently without condom and even, if they know that they are HIV positive. (Mercer CH et al. Increasing prevalence of male homosexual partnerships and practices in Britain 1990-2000. AIDS. 2004; 18: 1453-8) As a result, a large number of diseases are associated with anal intercourse, many of which are rare or even unknown in the heterosexual population such as: anal cancer, Chlamydia trachomatis, Cryptosporidium, Giardia lamblia, Herpes simplex virus, HIV, Human papilloma virus, Isospora belli, Microsporidia, Gonorrhoea, Syphilis, Hepatitis B and C and others. (www.netdoctor.co.uk; www.gayhealthchannel.com;)

  • There is a significant increase in the risk of contracting HIV when engaging in anal sex. Young homosexual men aged 15-22, who ever had anal sex had a fivefold increased risk of contracting HIV than those who never engaged in anal sex. (Valleroy L, et al. HIV prevalence and associated risks in young men who have sex with men. JAMA. 2000; 284: 198-204.)

  • The term 'barebacking' refers to intentional unsafe anal sex. In a study of HIV-positive gay men, the majority of participants (84%) reported engaging in barebacking in the past three months, and 43% of the men reported recent bareback sex with a partner who most likely is not infected with HIV, therefore putting another man at risk of contracting HIV. (Halkitis PN. Intentional unsafe sex (barebacking) among HIV-positive gay men who seek sexual partners on the Internet. AIDS Care. 2003; 15: 367-78.)

  • While many homosexuals are aware of HIV risk, a large number are unaware of the increased risk of contracting non-HIV STDs, many of which have serious complications or may not be curable. (K-Y lubricant and the National Lesbian and Gay Health Association survey)

  • While 'always' condom use reduces the risk of contracting HIV by about 85%, Condoms, even when used 100% of the time, fail to give adequate levels of protection against many non-HIV STDs such as Syphilis, Gonorrhoea, Chlamydia, Herpes, Genital Warts and others. The only safe sex is, apart from abstinence, mutual monogamy with an uninfected partner. (Sex, Condoms, and STDs: What We Now Know. Medical Institute for Sexual Health. 2002)

C. Homosexuals have very high rates of sexually transmitted infections such as HIV which pose a major burden to the health service.

  • Over 70% of all AIDS diagnoses in Canada in adults over the age of 15 up to June 2004 were in homosexual men (13,019 out of 19,238). 60% of all positive HIV tests are found in homosexual men. This contrasts with just over 15% of all positive HIV tests which are due to heterosexual contact. (Public Health Agency of Canada. HIV and AIDS in Canada. November 2004).

  • The recently observed dramatic increases in syphilis in many large cities such as Los Angeles, San Francisco, but also in London and Manchester, UK are in the majority observed in homosexual men. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Trends in primary and secondary syphilis and HIV infections in men who have sex with men. MMWR 2004; 53: 575-8. and Nicoll A. Are trends in HIV, gonorrhoea, and syphilis worsening in western Europe? BMJ 2002; 324:1324-7.)

D. There are increased rates of mental ill health among the homosexual population compared to the general population. Many studies show much higher rates of psychiatric illness, such as depression, suicide attempts and drug abuse among homosexuals then among the general population. The homosexual lifestyle is associated with a shortened life expectancy of up to 20 years.

  • In a New Zealand study, data were gathered on a range of psychiatric disorders among gay, lesbian, and bisexual young people. At the age of 21, homosexuals/bisexuals were at fourfold increased risks of major depression and conduct disorder, fivefold increased risk of nicotine dependence, twofold increased risk of other substance misuse or addiction and six times more likely to have attempted suicide. (Fergusson DM et al. Is sexual orientation related to mental health problems and suicidality in young people? Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1999; 56: 876-80.)

  • In a recent US study of the mental health of homosexuals, it was found that gay/bisexual men had a more than 3-fold increased risk of major depression and a five-fold increased risk of panic disorder. They were three times as likely to rate their mental health as only 'fair' or 'poor' and to experience high levels of distress. Gay/bisexual women had a nearly four-fold increased risk of general anxiety disorder and both groups were more than three times as likely than the general population to require treatment in a mental health setting. (Cochran S. et al. Prevalence of mental disorders, psychological distress, and mental health services use among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. J Consult Clin Psychol. 2003; 71 :53-61.)

  • It is claimed, that the high rates of mental illness among homosexuals are the result of 'homophobia'. However, even in the Netherlands, which has been far more tolerant to same-sex relationships and which has recently legalised same-sex marriages, high levels of psychiatric illness, including major depression, bipolar disorder ('manic depression'), agoraphobia, obsessive compulsive disorder and drug addiction are found. (Sandfort TG, et al. Same-sex sexual behavior and psychiatric disorders: findings from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study (NEMESIS). Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001; 58 :85-91.)

  • Furthermore, if 'homophobia' and prejudices were the cause of the high rates of psychiatric disorders and suicide attempts among homosexuals, one would similarly expect to find higher rates of suicide attempts and suicide among ethnic minorities exposed to racism. However, this is not usually the case.

  • In a Vancouver study, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, it is estimated that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. (Hogg RS et al. Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay and bisexual men. International Journal of Epidemiology.1997; 26:657-61)

3. Homosexuality and pedophilia.
Any attempts to legalise gay marriage should be aware of the link between homosexuality and pedophilia. While the majority of homosexuals are not involved in pedophilia, it is of grave concern that there is a disproportionately greater number of homosexuals among pedophiles and an overlap between the gay movement and the movement to make pedophilia acceptable.

  • One well known historic example on the link between homosexuality and pedophilia is found in ancient Greece. Greek mythology is saturated with stories of pedophilia and ancient Greek literature praises pedophilia. The age group of boys that were used for 'sexual pleasure' was probably in the range of 12-17. Male prostitution was very common with brothels in which boys and young men were available. There is evidence for an extensive trade in boys. (Churchill W. Homosexual Behavior among Males. Hawthorn. New York. 1967)

  • There are links between pedophilia and homosexuality. The political scientist Prof. Mirkin wrote in a paper that: 'pedophile organizations were originally a part of the gay/lesbian coalition…' (Mirkin H. The pattern of sexual politics: feminism, homosexuality and pedophilia. Journal of Homosexuality 1999; 37: 1-24.). There is an overlap between the 'gay movement' and the movement to make pedophilia acceptable through organisations such as the North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA), as admitted by David Thorstad, Co-founder of NAMBLA writing in the Journal of Homosexuality. (Thorstad D. Man/boy love and the American gay movement. Journal of Homosexuality. 1990; 20 : 251-74)

  • The number of homosexuals in essentially all surveys is less than 3%. (Statistics Canada found only 1% of the population who described themselves as homosexual.) However, the percentage of homosexuals among pedophiles is 25%. (Blanchard R et al. Fraternal birth order and sexual orientation in pedophiles. Archives of Sexual Behavior 2000; 29: 463-78.) Therefore, the prevalence of pedophilia among homosexuals is about 10-25 times higher than one would expect if the proportion of pedophiles were evenly distributed within the (hetero- and homosexual) populations.

4. 'Gay marriage'.
Gay activists claim that there is no difference between children raised in a homosexual as opposed to a heterosexual household. However, essentially all studies that show that there is no difference have been criticised because of poor research quality. Despite the shortcomings, the studies seem to suggest that children raised in same-sex parents may be more sexually promiscuous and more likely to become homosexuals.

  • In a review of all the studies that purport to find no difference between children raised in families by same-sex parents and parents of different sex, major methodological flaws have been noted. For example, the studies have very small sample sizes, biased sample selection, or lack of control groups. (P. Morgan, Children as Trophies? Christian Institute. Newcastle upon Tyne, 2002)

  • Despite the limitations of the studies of same-sex parenting some differences are found. Children raised in same-sex parents are more likely to become sexually promiscuous and are more likely to become homosexual themselves. (Riggs SC. Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents. (letter) Pediatrics 2002; 109: 1193-4.)

  • However, the main concern remains the inherent instability of same-sex marriages. In the above mentioned Dutch survey, the average length of a 'committed' homosexual partnership was only 1.5 years. In the mentioned survey of nearly 8,000 gays, 71% of relationships did not last 8 years. Furthermore, violence among homosexual partnerships is two to three times as common as in heterosexual relationships. Such an environment does not provide the stability required for raising children. Former homosexual Stephen Bennett who is married to his wife and has two children states: 'Granting homosexuals the right to marry or adopt children is deliberately creating dysfunctional families.'

5. Biological evidence regarding gender development.
Despite all the impressions given by the media, homosexuality is neither an entirely innate condition nor is it unchangeable. The so-called 'gay gene' has never been found. There are studies that show it is possible to change sexual orientation from predominantly homosexual to predominantly heterosexual orientation.

  • A recent review by authors sympathetic to the gay movement shows clearly that homosexual development cannot be only determined by genes. Evidence from biology shows clearly that gays are not simply born that way. Environmental influences play a significant role in the development of gender identity and sexual behavior. (Bailey JM. "Biological perspectives on sexual orientation". In: Garnets LD and Kimmel DC: Psychological perspectives on lesbian, gay, and bisexual experiences. Columbia University Press, New York. 2003)

  • There is no convincing evidence for a 'gay gene'. Indeed, if there were a 'gay gene' those who carry it would probably be at a disadvantage in the natural selection process of evolution:' If there was a 'gay gene' this gene would cause a significant problem: homosexuality is associated with low fertility, indeed if a homosexual has only sex with same-sex persons he will have no offspring.' (Bailey JM. Biological perspectives on sexual orientation. 2003)

  • One way of finding out whether a condition is genetically determined is to examine the behavior of identical twins (who have the same genetic material) and comparing them with non-identical twins. It is assumed, that twins grow up in the same environment. There have been several studies investigating whether the identical twin brothers of homosexual men are also homosexuals. Concordance (both identical twins being homosexual) was found in only 25-50% of identical twin pairs. 'Genes' therefore cannot entirely explain homosexual orientation and behaviour. (Pillard RC and Weinrich JD. Evidence of familial nature of male homosexuality. Archives of General Psychiatry. 1986: 42; 808-12. King M and McDonald E. Homosexuals who are twins. A study of 46 probands. British Journal of Psychiatry. 1992; 160: 407-9.)

  • Recently, a study was published by Professor Spitzer, a prominent psychiatrist. He is viewed as a historic champion of gay activism by playing a key role in removing homosexuality from the psychiatric manual of mental disorders in 1973. In his study, he examined whether a predominantly homosexual orientation will, in some individuals, respond to therapy. He examined 200 respondents of both genders who reported changes from homosexual to heterosexual orientation lasting 5 years or more. He writes: 'Although initially skeptical, in the course of the study, the author became convinced of the possibility of change in some gay men and lesbians.' Although examples of "complete" change in orientation were not common, the majority of participants did report change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year as a result of reparative therapy. These results would seem to contradict the position statements of the major mental health organizations in the United States, which claim there is no scientific basis for believing psychotherapy effective in addressing same-sex attraction. (Spitzer RL. Can some gay men and lesbians change their sexual orientation? 200 participants reporting a change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation. Arch Sex Behav. 2003; 32: 403-17; discussion 419-72. – further evidence see www.narth.com)

6. Benefits of traditional marriage.
There are significant benefits from (heterosexual) marriage for individual and society. Heterosexually married couples are, on average, healthier, have fewer psychological problems and live longer than cohabiting or single individuals. Government policy therefore should be to support and strengthen heterosexual marriage.

  • In reviews by Professor Oswald, Professor of Economics at Warwick University, UK it was found that marriage reduces mortality. The excess mortality of men who are not married is similar to the excess mortality by smoking. Marriage has a much more important effect on longevity than income does. For men, the effect is positive and substantial. It almost exactly offsets the large (negative) consequences of smoking. For women, the effect is approximately half the size of the smoking effect.

  • Marriage is associated with greater happiness, less depression, less alcohol abuse and less smoking. Marriage gives a beneficial effect in terms of reducing alcohol abuse especially for men and reducing depression for both men and women.

  • Health benefits of marriage appear to be limited to marriage. Cohabitation does not confer the same degree of benefit than marriage. Formal marriage itself seems to matter. In the few studies that compare marriage and cohabitation, the results tend to show a beneficial effect from being married. (Gardner J, Oswald A, Is it Money or Marriage that Keeps People Alive? August 2002. Wilson CM and Oswald AJ: How Does Marriage Affect Physical and Psychological Health? A Survey of the Longitudinal Evidence. (January 2002; both papers available on Prof Oswald's website – see 'further reading')

7. Adverse effects of family breakdown.
There is a wealth of evidence linking family breakdown with many adverse health outcomes for children and society as a whole. Government policy therefore should be to strengthen the marriage-based family of husband and wife. 'Gay marriages', with their inherent instability, will contribute to the many adverse effects family breakdown has on children and on society as a whole.

  • At the root of many of the problems we see in children and young adults — such as emotional and behavioral difficulties, poor school performance, substance misuse, precocious teenage sexuality including teenage pregnancy and juvenile delinquency — is the dramatic increase in family breakup and 'relationship turnover' of parents, adversely affecting their children (For an overview see: Rebecca O'Neill. Experiments in living. CIVITAS. 2002)

  • As a result of family breakdown, children have on average more ill health including higher mortality, emotional problems (including a higher suicide rate).

  • Children from broken families have poorer school performance including poorer performance in maths, reading and writing.

  • Children from broken families are more likely to live in poverty. As a result of family breakdown, many single parent families live in poverty.

  • Children from broken families are also more likely to have problems with substance misuse and poor sexual health including teenage pregnancy.

  • Furthermore, children from broken homes are more likely to be engaging in criminal activity and are disproportionally over-represented in the prison population.

  • In a study of more than 170 US cities, a clear link between divorce rate and crime was found. Low rates of divorce were associated with reduced crime rates. (Sampson RJ, Crime in Cities. Tonry & Morris eds., Crime and Justice, Chicago 1992)

Further reading:
Health risks of gay sex Effects of family breakdown on children and society by CIVITAS, London, UK
Marriage research (by Prof Andrew Oswald)
Therapy of homosexual orientation: www.narth.com (National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality).
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT
John Shea, M.D., John Wilson, M.D. et.al. "'Gay marriage' and homosexuality: some medical comments." Lifesite (February, 2005).
Originally published to Lifesite.
THE AUTHORS
John Shea, MD, FRCP (C), Radiologist; John K. Wilson MD, FRCP (C), Cardiologist; Paul Ranalli MD, FRCP (C), Neurologist; Christina Paulaitis MD, CCFP, Family Physician; Luigi Castagna MD, FRCP (C), Paediatric Neurologist; Hans-Christian Raabe MD, MRCP MRCGP Internist; W. André Lafrance MD, FRCP (C), Dermatologist.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...ty/ho0095.html
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Ummu Sufyaan
03-11-2010, 02:03 AM
:sl:
what is this trend people seem to be having with homosexuality...its like becoming in fashion or something :hmm:
Reply

Strzelecki
03-11-2010, 03:16 AM
Thanks for sharing.
Mind if I pass it on? :)
Reply

جوري
03-11-2010, 03:27 AM
pls pass it on..

I actually was doing casual research today as I saw on the news another homo actor committing suicide and remembered the homos I have met during my under-grad and grad school they were always so irresolute, spastic, abnormal and uncomfortable about something.. and it had nothing to do with whether or not they were accepted by other people, it is an innate thing you just feel it emanate from them..

you know when you commit sin the first time you feel really bad, but as you keep committing sins the devil makes it more and more delicious for you, but somewhere underneath it all, there is a twinge of unhappiness, vacillation and lack of harmony and they can't figure it out-- so they they find some other modern reason, 'chemical imbalance' or whatever but truth is there are four theoretical modules to these sort of anxieties and depressions and only one module favors the chemical imbalance.. correcting the imbalance even though, will not correct the underlying cause that pushed them to that state to begin with and that is the sanctity of a good natural life that Allah swt meant for all people...

they know why they have no steady relationships and high suicide rates.. but they'd rather anything than what Allah swt decreed for wo/man-kind.. so it is their cross to bear and how unfortunate for them !
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Seeker1066
03-11-2010, 03:30 AM
Don't be so shocked Gossamer Traditional Catholic teaching on Homosexuality is that it is a disordered sexual orientation and the Homosexuals must remain celibate.

Peace to you.
Reply

جوري
03-11-2010, 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by Seeker1066
Don't be so shocked Gossamer Traditional Catholic teaching on Homosexuality is that it is a disordered sexual orientation and the Homosexuals must remain celibate.

Peace to you.
and so it was in medical compendiums up to 1973..
I don't understand why folks out there push so hard to treat other acts of sexual deviance but turn a blind eye to this one if not actually applaud and promote it?
Reply

Seeker1066
03-11-2010, 03:36 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
and so it was in medical compendiums up to 1973..
I don't understand why folks out there push so hard to treat other acts of sexual deviance but turn a blind eye to this one if not actually applaud and promote it?
I agree with you 100%. I think it is a purposeful act by people who seek to undermine family and morality. They serve Satan.

Peace to you
Reply

جوري
03-11-2010, 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by Seeker1066

Peace to you
and to you :smile:
Reply

cat eyes
03-11-2010, 01:24 PM
:wa:interesting study.

That whole ''gay marriage'' thing is a joke also and a clever game because they want others to believe that this is some type of thing your born with and this act should be acceptable. it turns my stomach thats all. once they get married then they go off sleeping with hundreds of men/women i mean they dont even look the type to settle down. there to perverted and there using marriage to make it seem natural to others

non muslims you should read this study!!!
Reply

Italianguy
03-11-2010, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
:wa:interesting study.

That whole ''gay marriage'' thing is a joke also and a clever game because they want others to believe that this is some type of thing your born with and this act should be acceptable. it turns my stomach thats all. once they get married then they go off sleeping with hundreds of men/women i mean they dont even look the type to settle down. there to perverted and there using marriage to make it seem natural to others

non muslims you should read this study!!!
It's really noy just for Non-Mulsims. There is a huge gay Muslim community as well. I even saw a documentary on it called "Gay Muslims"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Muslims

Being gay is not something one is born with. It's a choice. It's a gross discusting inexcusable sin. It's so bad how the whole world is becomming immune and treating them like they are a new race.:heated:
Reply

Trumble
03-11-2010, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by Seeker1066
I think it is a purposeful act by people who seek to undermine family and morality. They serve Satan.
I'm going to a the funeral next week of one of the kindest, gentlest, nicest people I've ever known. He lived with happily his partner, and never 'undermined' anything other than his friends and colleagues unhappiness. Yes he was gay, no he didn't die of AIDS, and frankly he was worth a thousand clueless, mindless, bigots like you.
Reply

جوري
03-11-2010, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
I'm going to a the funeral next week of one of the kindest, gentlest, nicest people I've ever known. He lived with happily his partner, and never 'undermined' anything other than his friends and colleagues unhappiness. Yes he was gay, no he didn't die of AIDS, and frankly he was worth a thousand clueless, mindless, bigots like you.
you can be kind and gentle and still be a sinner in other aspects of your life.. I am sorry about your friend..but it doesn't hold folks who frown upon homosexuality abd view it in a sinful light as bigots!
as per above:

In a Vancouver study, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, it is estimated that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. (Hogg RS et al. Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay and bisexual men. International Journal of Epidemiology.1997; 26:657-61)
Reply

Life_Is_Short
03-11-2010, 02:24 PM
Long time ago the thought of someone being gay was a crime. Now a days the word "gay" is so common. No one thinks even once about what it means before using it. If someones done a stupid act people would call them "gay". :heated: Astagfirul'Allah.

I miss the good old days.
Reply

sister herb
03-11-2010, 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
It's really noy just for Non-Mulsims.
Yes I agree. We can´t think that only Christian-origin or Atheits-origin or Jew-origin persons could be gays but Muslim-origins couldn´t. It is the other matter are those Muslim-origin people whose act as homosexuals muslims any more but have they leaved Islam (as well are Christian-origin gays Christians or leave they religion and its basic values of life).
Reply

جوري
03-11-2010, 03:23 PM
Not all Muslims who find themselves with homosexual inclinations leave Islam..

pls read this:

My world was so confused as I kept asking myself why men marry women when in fact, they love men?
Editor's note: This is the true story of an ex-homosexual man. It is published here with the author's kind permission.

I was born in a devout Muslim family. All my family members keep the five daily prayers, fast in the month of Ramadan, and observe all the Islamic teachings and rituals. My parents performed Hajj in the 1970s. There are 14 of us in the family. I am the 11th and the last son of a 5-brother and 9-sister family. I am close to my sisters and my mother compared to my brothers. My father passed away when I was 10.

I felt attracted to guys when I was young. Maybe the feeling developed when I was 10 years old. At 14, I knew that I would not want to get married as I was not attracted to women. I thought of how I would face my brothers and sisters when they all would get married and I would stay single.
My world was so confused as I asked myself why men marry women when in fact they love men. Then I realized that it was only me who felt that way. I was never abused by anyone. I still have no clue why it affected me.

Same Sex Experience


Last March, while reading Qur'an after Fajr Prayer, I prayed in my heart that Allah gives me a female companion. I wanted to stop all this Somehow, time passed by so fast and I had to face the reality that I will stay single forever. Luckily, some of my brothers and sisters got married when I was studying in the US. When I finished my degree, I stayed in Kuala Lumpur away from my family. Therefore, I could escape from the marriage questions.

My first SSE (Same-Sex Experience) started during college days. It continued after completing my studies when I settled back in Kuala Lumpur. It went further as my work took me to the Middle East. During these times, I still continued with my prayers. Sometimes, I felt so shy to face Allah during prayer as I just had sex earlier. Sometimes, I waited till the next day.

Although my career grew, I felt turbulence in life. My career did not go as smoothly as I wanted it to. My life was empty and my emotions were unstable as I kept changing partners. Then, I read a hadith about those committing sodomy.

Two years ago, I was out of work. I thought that was the worst time of my life when in fact it was the best time ever. I started reading the translation of the Qur'an. The imam in a mini mosque read hadiths (from the collection of Imam An-Nawawi) every morning after Fajr Prayer (Arabic for: Dawn Prayer). I now realize how these hadiths have shaped my life and my thinking.
I also read Prophet Muhammad's (peace and blessings be upon him) biography and the biographies of the 10 Companions who were promised Paradise. These stories moved me.
Even with all this, I still continued with my SSE, as bad habits die hard.

During my 6-month out-of-work period, Allah taught me how to surrender to Him. When I was hungry with no food to eat, Allah sent people offering me to eat with them. I did not have to ask Allah for this. He read me well. I was glad.
Surrendering to Allah is the turning point of my life. Reading the translation of the Qur'an has changed my perception of thinking and looking at this world. I read the book Road to Mecca by Muhammed Assad. I felt like a totally new Muslim.

Even with all this, I was still having SSE.

Words from Prophet Lut to his people kept me thinking. "Take my daughters for your wife. May you will find peace." I smiled sarcastically as I know these people were not interested in women, how could he offer his daughters? But then again, these are a prophet's words. There must be some truth in them.

Last March, while reading Qur'an after Fajr Prayer, I prayed in my heart that Allah gives me a female companion. I wanted to stop all this. I felt tired of my life, felt like every time I was climbing ladders to reach to the highest level of faith, I fell down when I had a SSE.

Getting Married
Allah gave me a wife who fulfilled 9 out of 10 on my checklist With my companion, I could channel my sexual desire according to Islam. Within a week, Allah sent someone who wanted to introduce me to her auntie. (I said in my heart: An auntie?) I said, "OK if I have the time." Then the lady was brought to me in the same evening. There was not much conversation except that she said that her favorite journey is from her house to the masjid. That was the last word we spoke before I adjourned to surau for my `Asr Prayer (Arabic for: Afternoon Prayer).

After the first meeting, we contacted each other via text messages. She asked me "Why didn't I get married?" I was a bit stunned and replied with all sorts of excuses. Then I resent to inform that in fact I did not get married because I was born homosexual. After a week of text messaging, I asked her if that it was OK to let my mom know about us and I found the right person. She said "OK." Within three months, we were married in a small ceremony.

Allah gave me a wife. She fulfilled 9 out of 10 on my checklist. I told her the one she did not fulfill is that she is a woman, not a man. She smiled. Allah offered me the qualities in her as if I spelled out my checklist. Allah knows me too well and knows what makes me happy.

During the three months that I knew her (before marriage), I did not feel attracted to her, I did not feel the arousal when I was with her. Nor does she toward me. I surrendered to Allah alone as I read in the Qur'an that He is the One Who showers the love feeling.
I prayed to Allah to shower us with love and make me feel aroused with her. True enough, Allah accepted my plea.

During the process of knowing my wife, I stumbled upon straight struggle Yahoo! groups based in the UK that cater for Muslims who face Same Sex Attraction (SSA) all over the world. I shared my life experience and my successful story with the groups. I am glad that I paved the way and encouraged some to take the first step to get married and counter the fear of first-night marriage.
In sha' Allah, my small contribution will lead to many successful heterosexual marriages in the future. Amen.

Read more: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...#ixzz0hsjq6dqX

:w:
Reply

Italianguy
03-11-2010, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Not all Muslims who find themselves with homosexual inclinations leave Islam..

pls read this:

My world was so confused as I kept asking myself why men marry women when in fact, they love men?
Editor's note: This is the true story of an ex-homosexual man. It is published here with the author's kind permission.

I was born in a devout Muslim family. All my family members keep the five daily prayers, fast in the month of Ramadan, and observe all the Islamic teachings and rituals. My parents performed Hajj in the 1970s. There are 14 of us in the family. I am the 11th and the last son of a 5-brother and 9-sister family. I am close to my sisters and my mother compared to my brothers. My father passed away when I was 10.

I felt attracted to guys when I was young. Maybe the feeling developed when I was 10 years old. At 14, I knew that I would not want to get married as I was not attracted to women. I thought of how I would face my brothers and sisters when they all would get married and I would stay single.
My world was so confused as I asked myself why men marry women when in fact they love men. Then I realized that it was only me who felt that way. I was never abused by anyone. I still have no clue why it affected me.

Same Sex Experience


Last March, while reading Qur'an after Fajr Prayer, I prayed in my heart that Allah gives me a female companion. I wanted to stop all this Somehow, time passed by so fast and I had to face the reality that I will stay single forever. Luckily, some of my brothers and sisters got married when I was studying in the US. When I finished my degree, I stayed in Kuala Lumpur away from my family. Therefore, I could escape from the marriage questions.

My first SSE (Same-Sex Experience) started during college days. It continued after completing my studies when I settled back in Kuala Lumpur. It went further as my work took me to the Middle East. During these times, I still continued with my prayers. Sometimes, I felt so shy to face Allah during prayer as I just had sex earlier. Sometimes, I waited till the next day.

Although my career grew, I felt turbulence in life. My career did not go as smoothly as I wanted it to. My life was empty and my emotions were unstable as I kept changing partners. Then, I read a hadith about those committing sodomy.

Two years ago, I was out of work. I thought that was the worst time of my life when in fact it was the best time ever. I started reading the translation of the Qur'an. The imam in a mini mosque read hadiths (from the collection of Imam An-Nawawi) every morning after Fajr Prayer (Arabic for: Dawn Prayer). I now realize how these hadiths have shaped my life and my thinking.
I also read Prophet Muhammad's (peace and blessings be upon him) biography and the biographies of the 10 Companions who were promised Paradise. These stories moved me.
Even with all this, I still continued with my SSE, as bad habits die hard.

During my 6-month out-of-work period, Allah taught me how to surrender to Him. When I was hungry with no food to eat, Allah sent people offering me to eat with them. I did not have to ask Allah for this. He read me well. I was glad.
Surrendering to Allah is the turning point of my life. Reading the translation of the Qur'an has changed my perception of thinking and looking at this world. I read the book Road to Mecca by Muhammed Assad. I felt like a totally new Muslim.

Even with all this, I was still having SSE.

Words from Prophet Lut to his people kept me thinking. "Take my daughters for your wife. May you will find peace." I smiled sarcastically as I know these people were not interested in women, how could he offer his daughters? But then again, these are a prophet's words. There must be some truth in them.

Last March, while reading Qur'an after Fajr Prayer, I prayed in my heart that Allah gives me a female companion. I wanted to stop all this. I felt tired of my life, felt like every time I was climbing ladders to reach to the highest level of faith, I fell down when I had a SSE.

Getting Married
Allah gave me a wife who fulfilled 9 out of 10 on my checklist With my companion, I could channel my sexual desire according to Islam. Within a week, Allah sent someone who wanted to introduce me to her auntie. (I said in my heart: An auntie?) I said, "OK if I have the time." Then the lady was brought to me in the same evening. There was not much conversation except that she said that her favorite journey is from her house to the masjid. That was the last word we spoke before I adjourned to surau for my `Asr Prayer (Arabic for: Afternoon Prayer).

After the first meeting, we contacted each other via text messages. She asked me "Why didn't I get married?" I was a bit stunned and replied with all sorts of excuses. Then I resent to inform that in fact I did not get married because I was born homosexual. After a week of text messaging, I asked her if that it was OK to let my mom know about us and I found the right person. She said "OK." Within three months, we were married in a small ceremony.

Allah gave me a wife. She fulfilled 9 out of 10 on my checklist. I told her the one she did not fulfill is that she is a woman, not a man. She smiled. Allah offered me the qualities in her as if I spelled out my checklist. Allah knows me too well and knows what makes me happy.

During the three months that I knew her (before marriage), I did not feel attracted to her, I did not feel the arousal when I was with her. Nor does she toward me. I surrendered to Allah alone as I read in the Qur'an that He is the One Who showers the love feeling.
I prayed to Allah to shower us with love and make me feel aroused with her. True enough, Allah accepted my plea.

During the process of knowing my wife, I stumbled upon straight struggle Yahoo! groups based in the UK that cater for Muslims who face Same Sex Attraction (SSA) all over the world. I shared my life experience and my successful story with the groups. I am glad that I paved the way and encouraged some to take the first step to get married and counter the fear of first-night marriage.
In sha' Allah, my small contribution will lead to many successful heterosexual marriages in the future. Amen.

Read more: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...#ixzz0hsjq6dqX

:w:
good article! Hasn't that one been put on this forum before? I like the picture of the man and woman holding hands:statisfie My wife had henna done for our wedding, it was beautiful! She does it every once in a while. It is expensive though. Some get their nails done...my wife gets Henna;D

God be with you Ms. Skye. Great post!:D
Reply

Supreme
03-11-2010, 05:28 PM
Catholics are homophobic, what's news?
Reply

جوري
03-11-2010, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
Catholics are homophobic, what's news?
phobia = An anxiety disorder characterized by extreme and irrational fear!

I don't think anyone has an irrational fear of homosexuals, I'd redefine the terms that folks throw around like 'bigoted' or 'homophobic', since said description is simply not true.. Further, the article is a series of scientific factoids compiled on one website, it doesn't make them any less true simply because some folks dislike the content!

all the best
Reply

Supreme
03-11-2010, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
phobia = An anxiety disorder characterized by extreme and irrational fear!

I don't think anyone has an irrational fear of homosexuals, I'd redefine the terms that folks throw around like 'bigoted' or 'homophobic', since said description is simply not true.. Further, the article is a series of scientific factoids compiled on one website, it doesn't make them any less true simply because some folks dislike the content!

all the best
The English language is not subject to specific rules; the beauty of the language is the synonyms and the different meanings words can have and the different situations words can be applied to. Homophobia may not be a conventional 'phobia', but it is very much existent and applies to any dislike of homosexuals!
Reply

جوري
03-11-2010, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
The English language is not subject to specific rules; the beauty of the language is the synonyms and the different meanings words can have and the different situations words can be applied to. Homophobia may not be a conventional 'phobia', but it is very much existent and applies to any dislike of homosexuals!
again we have no dislike for homosexuals.. ever heard of hate the sin not the sinner? How could we possibly discuss people we have never met? we are simply discussing an act we find abominable and unnatural!

all the best
Reply

Amadeus85
03-11-2010, 08:00 PM
The legalization of homo relationships, homo marriages and allowing homos and lesbians to adopt children is the final sign of the win of atheism and every powers which support it. It's like big banner - "People forgot about the Creator here, the new master reigns now".
Reply

cat eyes
03-11-2010, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
good article! Hasn't that one been put on this forum before? I like the picture of the man and woman holding hands:statisfie My wife had henna done for our wedding, it was beautiful! She does it every once in a while. It is expensive though. Some get their nails done...my wife gets Henna;D

God be with you Ms. Skye. Great post!:D
i love henna i sometimes do designs on my hands when im really bored ;D
Reply

Supreme
03-11-2010, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
again we have no dislike for homosexuals.. ever heard of hate the sin not the sinner? How could we possibly discuss people we have never met? we are simply discussing an act we find abominable and unnatural!

all the best
Yes, of course of that, although with your constant hostility of Christians, Jews, liberals, Americans, Brits and the like, it wouldn't surprise me if you did *dislike* homosexuals.

Homosexuality is unnatural, but then so is flying in planes, driving and even using the internet! If you want 'natural' then hey, let's all run around stark naked with wooden spears hunting elephants and then retiring to the fire in the cave whilst having relations with our cousins and regularly fighting the other alpha male caveman of the tribe!
Reply

جوري
03-11-2010, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
Yes, of course of that, although with your constant hostility of Christians, Jews, liberals, Americans, Brits and the like, it wouldn't surprise me if you did *dislike* homosexuals.

Homosexuality is unnatural, but then so is flying in planes, driving and even using the internet! If you want 'natural' then hey, let's all run around stark naked with wooden spears hunting elephants and then retiring to the fire in the cave whilst having relations with our cousins and regularly fighting the other alpha male caveman of the tribe!
Again, you need someone to teach you how to rid yourself of the following traits
1- fortune telling
2-mind-reading (especially)
3-magnification (doubly so)
4- emotional reasoning (it is good when you boast a high IQ to actually yield less to emotionality and more to logic) as to loan credence to your point of view..
5-labeling (probably the most unattractive)
6- blame..

so you can have meaningful dialogues with others, if that is indeed your purpose here..

all the best
Reply

M.I.A.
03-11-2010, 10:17 PM
anybody that has an understanding of the persecuted should know better:skeleton:

i particularly like Gossamer skye's post, like giving street dawa with science. (sarcasm)
Reply

جوري
03-11-2010, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
anybody that has an understanding of the persecuted should know better:skeleton:
How so?

i particularly like Gossamer skye's post, like giving street dawa with science. (sarcasm)
we are not offering da3wa on this thread perhaps you got lost on your way to the cantina? (derogatory)
Reply

Seeker1066
03-12-2010, 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by Supreme
The English language is not subject to specific rules; the beauty of the language is the synonyms and the different meanings words can have and the different situations words can be applied to. Homophobia may not be a conventional 'phobia', but it is very much existent and applies to any dislike of homosexuals!
It is made up nonsense. It is demeaning to those with real Phobias. Homosexuality is wrong. Truth is truth even if you try to pretend otherwise.
Reply

M.I.A.
03-12-2010, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
How so?

we are not offering da3wa on this thread perhaps you got lost on your way to the cantina? (derogatory)

what i was trying to incite from you was probably a little more thought, i know its hugely pretencious of me but thats what that post was about.
iv known a shed load of people who are totally against my world view( skewed world view) but if i have anything that they can take from me i hope it would be something of my deen.

lol just stopping by il probably say something completly different on the way back. ps you are ALWAYS offering dawa.
Reply

Skavau
03-12-2010, 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Seeker1066
It is made up nonsense. It is demeaning to those with real Phobias. Homosexuality is wrong. Truth is truth even if you try to pretend otherwise.
Perhaps we could agree it is about as relevant as 'Islamaphobia'.
Reply

جوري
03-12-2010, 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Perhaps we could agree it is about as relevant as 'Islamaphobia'.
perverted sexual acts and religion are as similar as tandem biking and the M theory...

love those tired tactics though.. the words are the same..
consent.. who is to come between two consenting adults, of course one wonders how you feel about consenting siblings having sex?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007...y.kateconnolly
Bigotry of course (who wants to be a 'bigot')
homophobia (of course who wants to be labeled as a phobic)
then by all means pull the last trump card, compare sodomy to religion.. btw the fellow you quoted isn't even a Muslim so I am not sure what impact 'islamophobia' will have on him!

what a convincing argument..
I think it is time the lot of you regrouped and thought of better methodology because you are failing miserably!
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
03-12-2010, 02:45 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Not all Muslims who find themselves with homosexual inclinations leave Islam..[...]
i dont get why they even do that to begin with :? you dont find the same Muslims who drink, commit zina, dont pray, disobey their parents, etc leave Islam...i dont know why homosexuality is any different. people always act on impulse and always take the extreme imsad


It is made up nonsense. It is demeaning to those with real Phobias. Homosexuality is wrong. Truth is truth even if you try to pretend otherwise.
what i dont get is if they really did have something wrong with them medically, why dont they get treated with meds for it, like everyone else whose brains a little "unbalanced."
Reply

جوري
03-12-2010, 03:00 AM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
:sl:

i dont get why they even do that to begin with :? you dont find the same Muslims who drink, commit zina, dont pray, disobey their parents, etc leave Islam...i dont know why homosexuality is any different. people always act on impulse and always take the extreme imsad
:sl:

I believe this to be a psychological problem, not a biological one, as such I quote the verse from the Noble Quran:


وَأَمَّا مَنْ خَافَ مَقَامَ رَبِّهِ وَنَهَى النَّفْسَ عَنِ الْهَوَى {40}
[Pickthal 79:40] But as for him who feared to stand before his Lord and restrained his soul from lust,
فَإِنَّ الْجَنَّةَ هِيَ الْمَأْوَى {41}
[Pickthal 79:41] Lo! the Garden will be his home.


as such the key is to restrain oneself from lowly desires in whatever form..



what i dont get is if they really did have something wrong with them medically, why dont they get treated with meds for it, like everyone else whose brains a little "unbalanced."
Some do like the brother above in the article I quoted..

:w:
Reply

Beardo
03-12-2010, 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
:sl:
what is this trend people seem to be having with homosexuality...its like becoming in fashion or something :hmm:
My friend was discussing this same issue with me the other day. He was telling me that in his high school, being homosexual makes you popular. At first, I was like whaaat? No way. And it seems like you just affirmed his statement.
Reply

جوري
03-12-2010, 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by Rashad
My friend was discussing this same issue with me the other day. He was telling me that in his high school, being homosexual makes you popular. At first, I was like whaaat? No way. And it seems like you just affirmed his statement.
I must be incredibly old fashioned.. seems like yesterday I was playing with my atari




and here I am now, can't keep up with the latest fashion trends ^o):hmm:
Reply

Ramadhan
03-12-2010, 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
It's really noy just for Non-Mulsims. There is a huge gay Muslim community as well. I even saw a documentary on it called "Gay Muslims"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Muslims

Being gay is not something one is born with. It's a choice. It's a gross discusting inexcusable sin. It's so bad how the whole world is becomming immune and treating them like they are a new race.:heated:
In Islam, having gay feelings is not "gross disgusting inexcusable sin".
While acting on those gay feelings are indeed abominable sin.
Those gay feelings is a test from Allah.
Indeed it is no more difficult test than any other tests.
For the believers who have gay tendencies, if they can control and defeat
those nafs, then it is a way to be elevated in status by Allah and to get Allah's ridho and mercy.

That's why Rasulullah SAW advised anyone to get married as soon as they can.
Reply

Italianguy
03-12-2010, 05:32 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
In Islam, having gay feelings is not "gross disgusting inexcusable sin".
While acting on those gay feelings are indeed abominable sin.
Those gay feelings is a test from Allah.
Indeed it is no more difficult test than any other tests.
For the believers who have gay tendencies, if they can control and defeat
those nafs, then it is a way to be elevated in status by Allah and to get Allah's ridho and mercy.

That's why Rasulullah SAW advised anyone to get married as soon as they can.
Sorry bro, I should have worded it that way. I meant that if they are gay, meaning they act upon those...ummmmm, feelings^o) It is a severe sin. A Christian can't call themselves a follower of Christ and be gay at the same time, I hate how they do that. I don't hate gays, I pray that they will truley find God and realise it didn't start with Adam and Eddie...It started with Adam and Eve.
Reply

Italianguy
03-12-2010, 05:34 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I must be incredibly old fashioned.. seems like yesterday I was playing with my atari




and here I am now, can't keep up with the latest fashion trends ^o):hmm:
Your not to old....I love the atari:embarrass In fact, they are reselling that system in stores again, as a new system! YEAH! They call it the retro atari....now I feel oldimsad
Reply

جوري
03-12-2010, 05:35 AM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
Sorry bro, I should have worded it that way. I meant that if they are gay, meaning they act upon those...ummmmm, feelings^o) It is a severe sin. A Christian can't call themselves a follower of Christ and be gay at the same time, I hate how they do that. I don't hate gays, I pray that they will truley find God and realise it didn't start with Adam and Eddie...It started with Adam and Eve.
Adam and Steve rhymes better..
Reply

Skavau
03-12-2010, 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
perverted sexual acts and religion are as similar as tandem biking and the M theory...
I think you'll find I wasn't comparing religion with anything, only 'phobias' in the context of disagreeing with world views, or beliefs. The reality is that some people against homosexuality are also homophobic and some people against Islam are Islamaphobic. Phobia has to do with irrational fear. If you have irrational concerns about either Islam or homosexuality and actually feel irrationaly concerned or scared when in contact with either a Muslim or a homosexual then you might, just perhaps have phobia.

Labelling everyone who has a problem with either as phobic in some sort of way is just a petulant retort.

love those tired tactics though.. the words are the same..
consent.. who is to come between two consenting adults, of course one wonders how you feel about consenting siblings having sex?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007...y.kateconnolly
You answered it yourself: consent.

There's really no argument that someone who believes in consent can argue against concerning that. There are no ethical issues. As soon as two parties consent to any given action it no longer becomes a question of ethics.

Bigotry of course (who wants to be a 'bigot')
homophobia (of course who wants to be labeled as a phobic)
then by all means pull the last trump card, compare sodomy to religion.. btw the fellow you quoted isn't even a Muslim so I am not sure what impact 'islamophobia' will have on him!
I don't care what affect it has on him. I didn't quote him just to get him to respond.

I think it is time the lot of you regrouped and thought of better methodology because you are failing miserably!
At what? What do you imagine 'we' are trying to do?
Reply

M.I.A.
03-12-2010, 10:02 AM
almost feels like im being trolled here but i guess everybody's views are engrained.
knew a guy at uni, very polite, didnt even look at girls, his mannerisms were odd. like his brain was a bit off center, didnt fit into any groups. seemed like a cool guy i think i prayed jumma with him a few times.
anyway, i thought he was gay.
now i work in a pharmacy with about 10 women and 2 guys. they must think im gay.(implying im polite, lol, my intentions are...what my hands, feet and mouth send out against me i do not know)
dont dismantle homosexuality down to being a perverted act, its somebodies whole life you deconstructed, try a little more understanding.
Reply

cat eyes
03-12-2010, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
Yes, of course of that, although with your constant hostility of Christians, Jews, liberals, Americans, Brits and the like, it wouldn't surprise me if you did *dislike* homosexuals.

Homosexuality is unnatural, but then so is flying in planes, driving and even using the internet! If you want 'natural' then hey, let's all run around stark naked with wooden spears hunting elephants and then retiring to the fire in the cave whilst having relations with our cousins and regularly fighting the other alpha male caveman of the tribe!
but when your doing all those things as you say like using internet etc, your not putting yourself in danger of getting diseases and putting others at risk? :hmm: btw it aint down right dirty and disgusting either
Reply

Supreme
03-12-2010, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Seeker1066
It is made up nonsense. It is demeaning to those with real Phobias. Homosexuality is wrong. Truth is truth even if you try to pretend otherwise.
Let's not get worked up about the semantics of 'homophobia'- it exists whether you call it discrimination, bigotry or ignorance.

but when your doing all those things as you say like using internet etc, your not putting yourself in danger of getting diseases and putting others at risk? btw it aint down right dirty and disgusting either
When you use the internet you put yourself at risk of viruses or trojans, when you fly or drive you are at risk of a crash or even a terrorist attack.

I agree homosexuality is repulsive, but then just because I'm indifferent to something, it does not turn me into a bigot who hates a group of people or their legal sexual preferences that they have no ability to patrol.
Reply

جوري
03-12-2010, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
I think you'll find I wasn't comparing religion with anything, only 'phobias' in the context of disagreeing with world views, or beliefs. The reality is that some people against homosexuality are also homophobic and some people against Islam are Islamaphobic. Phobia has to do with irrational fear. If you have irrational concerns about either Islam or homosexuality and actually feel irrationaly concerned or scared when in contact with either a Muslim or a homosexual then you might, just perhaps have phobia.
I know what a phobia is, we have already defined it..
we are not here passing judgment nor are we 'afraid' much less irrationally so, we're here discussing the medical facts and other down sides of choosing a lifestyle against what God prescribed for human/kind.. facts which are deliberately kept out of the news or media, for bizarre reasons where if you discuss any openly you run a risk of being labeled something completely incompatible by the likes of you. In fact you do them a great disservice as it appears the majority of them don't know of other lethal diseases that plague them outside of HIV which apparently they don't even desire to take heed of:

"he term 'barebacking' refers to intentional unsafe anal sex. In a study of HIV-positive gay men, the majority of participants (84%) reported engaging in barebacking in the past three months, and 43% of the men reported recent bareback sex with a partner who most likely is not infected with HIV, therefore putting another man at risk of contracting HIV. (Halkitis PN. Intentional unsafe sex (barebacking) among HIV-positive gay men who seek sexual partners on the Internet. AIDS Care. 2003; 15: 367-78.) "


Being a Muslim doesn't lower your lifespan by 8-20 years
Being a Muslim doesn't make you more prune to suicide
Being a Muslim doesn't make you more prune to promiscuity
Being a Muslim doesn't leave you more open for more lethal diseases some which are most prevalent exclusively in homosexuals like Kaposi's sarcoma
Being a Muslim doesn't make you more prune to mental health problems
Being a Muslim doesn't make you more prune to substance and drug abuse
being a Muslim doesn't make you three times as likely to suffer depression
Being a Muslim doesn't make your children more prune to poverty or coming from a broken home or more prune for early promiscuity
Being a Muslim denotes you have subscribed to a world religion not a perverse sexual act.. so again, until such a time you can work on your logic can you engage in this topic.
In general if you wish to discuss things that you find wrong with Islam you can do so on a separate thread, on this thread we are discussing the risks of having a homosexual life.. Again a lewd sexual act isn't a religion, it isn't a building, it isn't a plant, it isn't the ten o'clock news.. try to put things in their proper categories!

Labelling everyone who has a problem with either as phobic in some sort of way is just a petulant retort.
How so? homosexuality is the name of the game, we are not discussing homophobia we are discussing homosexuality, there is a difference -- look it up in the dictionary yourself, you'll find them as different as night and day..


You answered it yourself: consent.

There's really no argument that someone who believes in consent can argue against concerning that. There are no ethical issues. As soon as two parties consent to any given action it no longer becomes a question of ethics.
So I take it that you find it equally ethical for a brother and sister to consent to sex? as a general rule the atheist moral compass isn't the measuring stick that most use as a baseline for morality!

I don't care what affect it has on him. I didn't quote him just to get him to respond.
Then I fear your punch line was misapplied!

At what? What do you imagine 'we' are trying to do?
Get everyone else to subscribe to your degenerate views!

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
almost feels like im being trolled here but i guess everybody's views are engrained.
knew a guy at uni, very polite, didnt even look at girls, his mannerisms were odd. like his brain was a bit off center, didnt fit into any groups. seemed like a cool guy i think i prayed jumma with him a few times.
anyway, i thought he was gay.
now i work in a pharmacy with about 10 women and 2 guys. they must think im gay.(implying im polite, lol, my intentions are...what my hands, feet and mouth send out against me i do not know)
dont dismantle homosexuality down to being a perverted act, its somebodies whole life you deconstructed, try a little more understanding.
I don't get your story, and further pls. allow me, when someone defines themselves as a homosexual, they are defining themselves by their sexual act.. No one goes to a place and introduces themselves as 'Hello, I am a strict heterosexual' and if they do then I'd venture to question their mental well-being.. No one would know if someone is a homo or not unless they define themselves as such!

all the best
Reply

Amadeus85
03-12-2010, 05:05 PM
Those preachers (muslims, orthodox jews, protestants, catholics) who stand against the sin of sodomy are biggest friends of homosexuals and lesbians because they tell them - What you do is wrong, stop ruining your life, you werent born as sexual deviant, you can leave your pervertion. But to leave it, you must know that it's evil.

Those preachers who say that sodomy is alright, they only hurt homosexuals and lesbians, because they affirm them in their sin. That's sad.
Reply

Skavau
03-12-2010, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Skye
I know what a phobia is, we have already defined it..
we are not here passing judgment nor are we 'afraid' much less irrationally so, we're here discussing the medical facts and other down sides of choosing a lifestyle against what God prescribed for human/kind.. facts which are deliberately kept out of the news or media, for bizarre reasons where if you discuss any openly you run a risk of being labeled something completely incompatible by the likes of you. In fact you do them a great disservice as it appears the majority of them don't know of other lethal diseases that plague them outside of HIV which apparently they don't even desire to take heed of:
I didn't refer to anyone here being homophobic, did I? I simply replied to comment by a user that dismissed homophobia as a legitimate descriptive term. I made the cheap point of stating that if homophobia is an irrelevant term, then so is Islamaphobia.

In any case please do not pretend this is an entirely utilitarian health issue. Even if it was true that homosexual intercourse is dangerous, even if it was true that homosexual intercourse has disastrous health consequences - it only negates it to being as immoral than smoking, or engaging in extreme sports. And indeed, you do not see the disgust (or I haven't) towards smokers that you see towards homosexuals.

That is because I believe, the act and/or the tendency of homosexuality represents a lot more than merely 'bad for health' to some.

Being a Muslim doesn't lower your lifespan by 8-20 years
Being a Muslim doesn't make you more prune to suicide
Being a Muslim doesn't make you more prune to promiscuity
Being a Muslim doesn't leave you more open for more lethal diseases some which are most prevalent exclusively in homosexuals like Kaposi's sarcoma
Being a Muslim doesn't make you more prune to mental health problems
Being a Muslim doesn't make you more prune to substance and drug abuse
being a Muslim doesn't make you three times as likely to suffer depression
Being a Muslim doesn't make your children more prune to poverty or coming from a broken home or more prune for early promiscuity
Being a Muslim denotes you have subscribed to a world religion not a perverse sexual act.. so again, until such a time you can work on your logic can you engage in this topic.
What does this have to do with anything I said?

In general if you wish to discuss things that you find wrong with Islam you can do so on a separate thread, on this thread we are discussing the risks of having a homosexual life.. Again a lewd sexual act isn't a religion, it isn't a building, it isn't a plant, it isn't the ten o'clock news.. try to put things in their proper categories!
I think I already said this, but I wasn't comparing Islam with Homosexuality.

So I take it that you find it equally ethical for a brother and sister to consent to sex? as a general rule the atheist moral compass isn't the measuring stick that most use as a baseline for morality!
It isn't ethical or unethical. The choice removes the dilemma. It is no more unethical than me firing up Mediamonkey and playing a song. I chose to do it.

Get everyone else to subscribe to your degenerate views!
What views would these be?
Reply

Chuck
03-12-2010, 07:19 PM
Nobody has addressed the points in OP in a meaningful way. Next best thing is to derail the thread. Congratulations!
Reply

جوري
03-12-2010, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
I didn't refer to anyone here being homophobic, did I? I simply replied to comment by a user that dismissed homophobia as a legitimate descriptive term. I made the cheap point of stating that if homophobia is an irrelevant term, then so is Islamaphobia.
Then neither of those descriptions have anything to do with my thread and I'd again prefer that if you are to engage in a topic that you'd be in keeping with the subject matter..
When the conditions of phobia are met then we can discuss them, so far neither phobia of the islamic or homosexual type have anything to do with this thread!

In any case please do not pretend this is an entirely utilitarian health issue. Even if it was true that homosexual intercourse is dangerous, even if it was true that homosexual intercourse has disastrous health consequences - it only negates it to being as immoral than smoking, or engaging in extreme sports. And indeed, you do not see the disgust (or I haven't) towards smokers that you see towards homosexuals.
The article doesn't discuss sexual health only.. it discusses the impact on society, children, mental status, socioeconomic implications amongst others.. pls. try to read the entire topic you are opposing before hanging on to a strawman, and again as a general rule try to discuss things in context, I am getting tired of you pulling out of a hat every irrelevant topic to make a similitude to this one!
That is because I believe, the act and/or the tendency of homosexuality represents a lot more than merely 'bad for health' to some.
see previous reply, and go back and read the original article!

What does this have to do with anything I said?
What does what you have said have to do with our topic here?

I think I already said this, but I wasn't comparing Islam with Homosexuality.
Then what were you doing?


It isn't ethical or unethical. The choice removes the dilemma. It is no more unethical than me firing up Mediamonkey and playing a song. I chose to do it.
Again with bizarre similitudes and lower than normal baseline.
The way you define morality stands at a different platform than society at large!

What views would these be?
The ones you've been expressing here!

all the best
Reply

جوري
03-12-2010, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
Nobody has addressed the points in OP in a meaningful way. Next best thing is to derail the thread. Congratulations!
:sl:
what you are not sold on 'consent' 'Islamophobia' 'homophobia' and bigotry?
Reply

Chuck
03-12-2010, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
:sl:
what you are not sold on 'consent' 'Islamophobia' 'homophobia' and bigotry?
Well, the trend in this thread is ignoring the OP and labeling people with phobia, bigotry, etc... This is neither a rebuttal nor addressing the points in a meaningful way. So I guess they can't.
Reply

M.I.A.
03-12-2010, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye


I don't get your story, and further pls. allow me, when someone defines themselves as a homosexual, they are defining themselves by their sexual act.. No one goes to a place and introduces themselves as 'Hello, I am a strict heterosexual' and if they do then I'd venture to question their mental well-being.. No one would know if someone is a homo or not unless they define themselves as such!

all the best
no, when someone defines themselves as homosexual they imply they are attracted to a person who they should not be attracted to. acting on this thought process is another matter entirely.
i would not condemn either, its not my place and i am not fit to pass judgement upon them.
allah swt has given us the faculty of reason and an ability to distinguish between right and wronge, i am at a loss as how to apply these at the moment.
anyhoo as its written, allah swt is well aqquanted with all that we do, he knows the secrets of our hearts and our true motives even if we do not, allah swt is the keeper of the seen and the unseen and he is the best judge of all. know this though, even if you were to claim these people are so far from allah swt that they were worthy of your condemnation, everybody serves allah swt, if they want to or not!
i cant bang my head against this wall many more times so if iv lost the plot its all good.
Reply

جوري
03-12-2010, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
no, when someone defines themselves as homosexual they imply they are attracted to a person who they should not be attracted to. acting on this thought process is another matter entirely.
i would not condemn either, its not my place and i am not fit to pass judgement upon them.
allah swt has given us the faculty of reason and an ability to distinguish between right and wronge, i am at a loss as how to apply these at the moment.
anyhoo as its written, allah swt is well aqquanted with all that we do, he knows the secrets of our hearts and our true motives even if we do not, allah swt is the keeper of the seen and the unseen and he is the best judge of all. know this though, even if you were to claim these people are so far from allah swt that they were worthy of your condemnation, everybody serves allah swt, if they want to or not!
i cant bang my head against this wall many more times so if iv lost the plot its all good.
:sl:

Go back to the first page and read what the article is actually about..
I haven't said these people are far removed from God or not, in fact I have gone forth and posted the story of a homosexual Muslim who changed his life-style..
Islam views homosexuality (the act of sodomy) as a sin.. if you don't agree with that, that it is your entitlement but that is outside the folds of Islam..

This thread isn't about preaching nor emotionality. It isn't about bigotry or phobias, it isn't about consent.. It is about the social, moral, health, societal implications, psychiatric as well the morbidity and mortality that plagues folks who choose to act outside the folds of what is natural and religiously moral!

As such, I think perhaps this thread is a little outside the sphere that you'd like to engage.

all the best
Reply

M.I.A.
03-13-2010, 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
:sl:

Go back to the first page and read what the article is actually about..
I haven't said these people are far removed from God or not, in fact I have gone forth and posted the story of a homosexual Muslim who changed his life-style..
Islam views homosexuality (the act of sodomy) as a sin.. if you don't agree with that, that it is your entitlement but that is outside the folds of Islam..

This thread isn't about preaching nor emotionality. It isn't about bigotry or phobias, it isn't about consent.. It is about the social, moral, health, societal implications, psychiatric as well the morbidity and mortality that plagues folks who choose to act outside the folds of what is natural and religiously moral!

As such, I think perhaps this thread is a little outside the sphere that you'd like to engage.

all the best
i dont really put my faith in science, after all we only live until a 100 if we'r lucky. try getting a few thousand candles on the cake and see if science can explain that..people did live that long im sure. hypocritical for someone who's education and interest has been in science. proper outside the fold on that one.
just depends on how much you attribute to god, your social, economic, bodily condition and ultimatly your mortality would be a nice start. dont worry this time im really going.

peace.
Reply

جوري
03-13-2010, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i dont really put my faith in science, after all we only live until a 100 if we'r lucky. try getting a few thousand candles on the cake and see if science can explain that..people did live that long im sure. hypocritical for someone who's education and interest has been in science. proper outside the fold on that one.
just depends on how much you attribute to god, your social, economic, bodily condition and ultimatly your mortality would be a nice start. dont worry this time im really going.

peace.
I am not worried.. and I am not sure I ever understand what this last post is about..

all the best
Reply

Argamemnon
03-13-2010, 03:20 AM
Very interesting read. Here in the Netherlands it's almost impossible to criticize homosexuality (it's probably the same in other western countries). When you're debating with westerners and tell them that you're not against homosexual individuals, but against homosexuality, they still won't accept it. They defend homosexuality as if it were a religion sent by God.
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-13-2010, 03:43 AM
@ skavaooooo : i am a homophobic.
Reply

Italianguy
03-13-2010, 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by mad_scientist
@ skavaooooo : i am a homophobic.
Me to bro. ....how have you been brother? Long time no see.

Between you being a scientist and me being.....idk, crazy...between us we can make a pill to cure homosexuality! It's a disease, we can fix it!
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-13-2010, 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by Italianguy
Me to bro. ....how have you been brother? Long time no see.

Between you being a scientist and me being.....idk, crazy...between us we can make a pill to cure homosexuality! It's a disease, we can fix it!
Allhamdulillah. Yourself?

There is no cure for self-inflicted lunacy.
Reply

Italianguy
03-13-2010, 04:18 AM
Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Allhamdulillah. Yourself?

There is no cure for self-inflicted lunacy.
Salaam,

I guess were stuck dealing with them then;D
Reply

'Abd Al-Maajid
03-13-2010, 04:19 AM
Eradication of this disease is like executing all the cases;D and closing their chapters for the next generation.
YES WE CAN!!!!;D;D;D;D
Reply

Ramadhan
03-13-2010, 04:38 AM
Originally Posted by Supreme
Let's not get worked up about the semantics of 'homophobia'- it exists whether you call it discrimination, bigotry or ignorance.



When you use the internet you put yourself at risk of viruses or trojans, when you fly or drive you are at risk of a crash or even a terrorist attack.

I agree homosexuality is repulsive, but then just because I'm indifferent to something, it does not turn me into a bigot who hates a group of people or their legal sexual preferences that they have no ability to patrol.
In Islam, homosexual acts are againts God's laws and the punishments for it are severe, similar to adultery.
Hence, muslim should be against and condemn homosexuality.
If that means muslims are homophobes then so be it.
Reply

Ramadhan
03-13-2010, 04:48 AM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Very interesting read. Here in the Netherlands it's almost impossible to criticize homosexuality (it's probably the same in other western countries). When you're debating with westerners and tell them that you're not against homosexual individuals, but against homosexuality, they still won't accept it. They defend homosexuality as if it were a religion sent by God.
Very true.
In western countries, as soon as you criticize and oppose homosexuality, you are
being called and labeled as "homophobe!".
Just like when anyone criticize state of Israel, they will be soon called as "anti semite!" and vilified.
Reply

Italianguy
03-13-2010, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Very true.
In western countries, as soon as you criticize and oppose homosexuality, you are
being called and labeled as "homophobe!".
Just like when anyone criticize state of Israel, they will be soon called as "anti semite!" and vilified.
I am gooing to be a little overly tact for the first time here.

I agree, isn't it so bad how we as Christians and Muslims are suppossed to tiptoe around this subject so as not to hurt their feelings or be labeled a racist? I hate that! There is NO SUCH THING as gay being a type of race!!! So there is no way to be racist against them, they are sick twisted individuals, and I will be ****ed if I am going to tiptoe around them!:raging: I don't care what anyone says about it! Homos are wrong! It is not ok to be gay! It is a major sin. And a choice!! They choose to be gay! It's discusting! +o(

Don't worry what they think anymore. Don't tiptoe around them so as not to hurt their feelings. They need help!

Call me a homophobe I DON"T CARE! I hate when homos make it seem as If God made them that way:heated:. They shouldn't be allowed to say the word ga* and God in the same sentance!

Okay sorry, I'm done.

God be with them they need Him!
Reply

cat eyes
03-13-2010, 03:46 PM
:wa:yeah i am not going to tiptoe around this subject either, i could not care less what they think. those people who are only muslim by name and see nothing wrong in being gay are slowly poisoning this beautiful ummah and i wont sit back and watch that happen
Reply

Argamemnon
03-13-2010, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
:wa:yeah i am not going to tiptoe around this subject either, i could not care less what they think. those people who are only muslim by name and see nothing wrong in being gay are slowly poisoning this beautiful ummah and i wont sit back and watch that happen
salam,

which muslims see "nothing wrong in homosexuality"? i don't believe there are such muslims.
Reply

cat eyes
03-13-2010, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
salam,

which muslims see "nothing wrong in homosexuality"? i don't believe there are such muslims.
:sl: yeah brother i mean the ones who only hold the name muslim but there actions clearly dont show that they are muslim
Reply

Supreme
03-13-2010, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
:sl: yeah brother i mean the ones who only hold the name muslim but there actions clearly dont show that they are muslim
I thought being Muslim one had to follow the Five Pillars? The Five Pillars mention nothing on homosexuality.
Reply

Ramadhan
03-13-2010, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
I thought being Muslim one had to follow the Five Pillars? The Five Pillars mention nothing on homosexuality.
The five pillars are the list of things that you must perform/do, but that is not enough.
You also have to believe in the 6 rukoon eeman (the six basic faiths)n which include absolute faith/believe in the Qur'an.
Now, the Qur'an clearly absolutely without a shred of doubt says that homosexual act is among the most abominable sin and tells the story of the people of luth (loot) pbuh and how Allah SWT punished them severely for their homosexual acts.
There is no difference of interpretations among ulemas as the verses are as clear as daylight (well, unless you ask those so called "gay muslim").

Hence, you really can't be a muslim and think homosexuality is okay.
Reply

Seeker1066
03-13-2010, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
Well, the trend in this thread is ignoring the OP and labeling people with phobia, bigotry, etc... This is neither a rebuttal nor addressing the points in a meaningful way. So I guess they can't.
That's all that's left when trying to debunk truth.

Peace to all
Reply

Seeker1066
03-13-2010, 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Very true.
In western countries, as soon as you criticize and oppose homosexuality, you are
being called and labeled as "homophobe!".
Just like when anyone criticize state of Israel, they will be soon called as "anti semite!" and vilified.
Exactly political correctness exists to defend the indefensible by accusing the one who points out error.

Peace to all
Reply

M.A.S.H.
03-14-2010, 01:07 AM
Same sex unions don't hurt anyone. Traditional families remain unaffected. If anything, gay marriage affect the sociology of homosexual relationships, which probably is the primary cause to promiscuity, higher rates of certain diseases etc mentioned in the first post.
One cannot be sure when it comes to adoptions though. However most relevant studies not tied to religious institutions showed little or no difference in children raised in same-sex families.
Reply

Ishaaq
03-14-2010, 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by M.A.S.H.
Same sex unions don't hurt anyone.
They certain hurt the people of Sadum (Sodom)!
Reply

جوري
03-14-2010, 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by M.A.S.H.
Same sex unions don't hurt anyone.
Neither do incestuous relationships!
Traditional families remain unaffected.
Traditional families are affected in many ways, refer to the article on the first page!
If anything, gay marriage affect the sociology of homosexual relationships, which probably is the primary cause to promiscuity, higher rates of certain diseases etc mentioned in the first post.
And this is good?


One cannot be sure when it comes to adoptions though. However most relevant studies not tied to religious institutions showed little or no difference in children raised in same-sex families.
None of the studies in the original page have anything to do with religion, save their compilation on a religious site!

all the best
Reply

M.A.S.H.
03-14-2010, 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Neither do incestuous relationships!
Traditional families are affected in many ways, refer to the article on the first page!

None of the studies in the original page have anything to do with religion, save their compilation on a religious site!

all the best
I don't think psychlogy treats incestous relationships the same way it treats homosexual ones. Incest is essentially creating a bond where another bond exists.
The German example because the couple didn't knw each other and they should be allowed to marry.
The article doesn't really say how homo unions affect hetero unions. It doesn't quote any studies to back it up, it only assumes gay marriage hurts traditional marriage.
The part about children quotes a study by a Christian institute.
Reply

Rabi Mansur
03-14-2010, 01:36 AM
:sl:

It is a major sin. And a choice!! They choose to be gay!
So when did all of you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

I never made a "choice" I've always been hetero. That is the way I was born. As long as I can remember, I have been attracted to women. Did you all choose to be straight? The gay people I know tell me that they never made a "choice" to be gay. That is the way they were born.

Where am I wrong?

:wa:
Reply

جوري
03-14-2010, 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by M.A.S.H.
I don't think psychlogy treats incestous relationships the same way it treats homosexual ones. Incest is essentially creating a bond where another bond exists.
The German example because the couple didn't knw each other and they should be allowed to marry.
The article doesn't really say how homo unions affect hetero unions. It doesn't quote any studies to back it up, it only assumes gay marriage hurts traditional marriage.
The part about children quotes a study by a Christian institute.
Psychology 'treated' homosexuality the same way it 'treated' other acts of sexual deviance up to the seventies.. and it was in fact a crime even in the west to engage in sodomy.. you have to wonder why certain groups lobby more than others to practice lewdness, be that as it may, the German couple will certainly not be the first of their kind, whenever you strip science of ethics you are sure to create many situations of that nature..

Many folks who donate their sperm or eggs in fact run the risk that their children will marry their siblings in the future, so at some point we'll be looking for an equal push to make ok incestuous relations as we see homosexual ones.

Homo unions affect traditional families in many ways..
when you teach five years olds about the two male penguins in love

you should also teach them about gay bowel syndrome and how it is costing their parents as well other traditional families millions in health-care dollars!

all the best
Reply

جوري
03-14-2010, 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by rabimansur
:sl:



So when did all of you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

I never made a "choice" I've always been hetero. That is the way I was born. As long as I can remember, I have been attracted to women. Did you all choose to be straight? The gay people I know tell me that they never made a "choice" to be gay. That is the way they were born.

Where am I wrong?

:wa:
You CHOOSE who you bed. certainly you don't jump every attractive woman you see simply because you are attracted to her?

They might indeed have homosexual inclinations, as many have inclinations for sinful things.. Succumbing to lowly desires or overcoming them, makes all the difference!

No one is born homo or hetero, your sexual desires start during puberty!

all the best
Reply

M.A.S.H.
03-14-2010, 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You CHOOSE who you bed. certainly you don't jump every attractive woman you see simply because you are attracted to her?

They might indeed have homosexual inclinations, as many have inclinations for sinful things.. Succumbing to lowly desires or overcoming them, makes all the difference!

No one is born homo or hetero, your sexual desires start during puberty!

all the best
Not everyone believes it is a lowly desire and a sin, a non-theocratic state certainly shouldn't discriminate based on religious prejudice. And with there being no reliable data that homosexual marriage poses threat to traditional unions as well as cause differences in children raised in such marriages, it should be allowed.
What gay marriage and increased acceptance of homosexuality can do is decrease the rate of promiscuity and ergo decrease health care costs.
Reply

جوري
03-14-2010, 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by M.A.S.H.
Not everyone believes it is a lowly desire and a sin, a non-theocratic state certainly shouldn't discriminate based on religious prejudice. And with there being no reliable data that homosexual marriage poses threat to traditional unions as well as cause differences in children raised in such marriages, it should be allowed.
What gay marriage and increased acceptance of homosexuality can do is decrease the rate of promiscuity and ergo decrease health care costs.
I have enjoyed your logic or lack thereof.. somehow when marriage is okayed for homosexuals that will curb on their promiscuity because you said so, and because you deemed the data provided unreliable?

The article isn't about beliefs, so it really doesn't matter who thinks what. What matters at the end of the day are the numbers of statistical significance and how they weave into the fabric of society although the moral aspect from a religious standpoint is indisputable, and no amount of lobbying, complaints or backtalk will change that!

all the best
Reply

Rabi Mansur
03-14-2010, 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You CHOOSE who you bed. certainly you don't jump every attractive woman you see simply because you are attracted to her?

They might indeed have homosexual inclinations, as many have inclinations for sinful things.. Succumbing to lowly desires or overcoming them, makes all the difference!

No one is born homo or hetero, your sexual desires start during puberty!

all the best
:sl:

Well, I was attracted to women way before I hit puberty. I never had a desire for men and can't imagine that. Gay men that I know tell me they knew they were different at a very young age. My nephew is gay. He knew he was not like the other guys when he was about 4 or 5 years old. And it was obvious to me when he was quite young that he was probably gay.

They describe it to me by telling me to imagine that I lived in a culture where I was hetero but society told me I had to be homo. Would I be able to conform and marry another man and enjoy sex with another man.

Now to me, that would be horrible. They tell me that is how it feels to them.

I don't know the answer to all this, but sexuality is very complicated for some people. I'm in no position to judge others.

Don't they teach you the answer to everything in med school?? ;-)

:wa:
Reply

جوري
03-14-2010, 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by rabimansur
:sl:

Well, I was attracted to women way before I hit puberty. I never had a desire for men and can't imagine that. Gay men that I know tell me they knew they were different at a very young age. My nephew is gay. He knew he was not like the other guys when he was about 4 or 5 years old. And it was obvious to me when he was quite young that he was probably gay.

They describe it to me by telling me to imagine that I lived in a culture where I was hetero but society told me I had to be homo. Would I be able to conform and marry another man and enjoy sex with another man.

Now to me, that would be horrible. They tell me that is how it feels to them.

I don't know the answer to all this, but sexuality is very complicated for some people. I'm in no position to judge others.

Don't they teach you the answer to everything in med school?? ;-)

:wa:
You had 'sexual urges' before puberty? it is very hard for me to believe that however if you say you have then you know your body best, attraction and urges are a separate thing at a young age and according to Freudian psychology which I don't subscribe to, children are attracted to the parent of their opposite gender (and that too is normal) they don't fully understand the concept of sexuality the way you come to learn of it when you become of age! .. most children role play and dress up in opposite gender clothes, it is common and doesn't mean they are homosexual. One of the neighbor kids in my home country constantly put on lipstick and nail polish and dressed in his mother's clothes and everyone let him be, he grew up and married and has a few kids none of us least of which him knew what homosexuality was, and I hazard say it is a learned behavior not an innate one considering how late in life I learned of it and how confused I was as to what it actually meant to be a homosexual--


Be that as it may, I have acknowledged early on that it is a psychological inclination not a biological one.. the same way some folks are necrophiliacs and can't help it. In fact in my sister's hospital, they caught a man sneaking in to the morgue to have sex with corpses and it was all over the news.. This is a real situation that many find themselves in and they can't help it-- it doesn't make it normal or OK and it certainly doesn't mean that it should be openly acceptable.

Problem is this sympathy you have is mis-directed.. If your child has a serious psychological disorder do you figure it is OK and that s/he should act on it or do you offer help because s/he is miserable if not acting directly on those urges?

I realize how popular the whole homosexual thing is in pop culture and how glamorized that folks fail to view it as wrong or immoral and instead are ready to dispense with labels to folks who merely question the drive and sanity behind this legalizing this type of lifestyle and integrating it into society as 'normal'

I don't have all the answers and I don't think they can teach you everything in medical school or even your residency, to be a doctor takes a life time of practice and hence it is so-called..

I always cringe at folks who claim they have the answer to everything, especially when it comes to 'science' science is ever changing, ever self-correcting.. the way we use DNA today in forensics isn't the way we used it in the eighties.. so why do folks subscribe to any new 'scientific tend' or even 'old ones' the 'Darwinian' sort as if it were a divine revelation?

What defines my morality Br. rabi. is my religion.. science is a gift from God for us to better our lives, not to misuse and go against the intended nature..


and Allah swt knows best

peace
Reply

Rabi Mansur
03-14-2010, 03:27 AM
What defines my morality Br. rabi. is my religion.. science is a gift from God for us to better our lives, not to misuse and go against the intended nature..
:sl:

And i guess in the end it ultimately is a question of morality and what informs our morality. I'm still trying to understand the homosexual lifestyle. It is definitely not something I condone and alhamdulillah I've never had a child struggle with same sex attraction so I don't know how I would react. I do have a nephew who is gay and his parents did all that they could to try and dissuade him from the lifestyle but he moved away and is living with another guy. I was raised in a religion that is very anti-gay. My nephew is now an atheist because of how our religion treated him. But his partner is a liberal Jewish type and hence doesn't have hang ups about religion like my nephew.

Anyway, it is not a healthy lifestyle. No question.

:wa:
Reply

M.A.S.H.
03-14-2010, 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have enjoyed your logic or lack thereof.. somehow when marriage is okayed for homosexuals that will curb on their promiscuity because you said so, and because you deemed the data provided unreliable?

The article isn't about beliefs, so it really doesn't matter who thinks what. What matters at the end of the day are the numbers of statistical significance and how they weave into the fabric of society although the moral aspect from a religious standpoint is indisputable, and no amount of lobbying, complaints or backtalk will change that!

all the best
Not because I said so. It's an assumption.
The provided data does not speak about the influence of gay amrriage on promiscuity amongst homosexuals.
Of course it is about beliefs, it is a purely ideological article that admits it takes its inspiration from the Holy Cathecism and it only quotes surveys that fit its agenda.
I agree with the statistics, certain diseases are more prevalent in gay men who do tend to be more prmoscous, but my point is this:
Gay marriage will not increase promiscuity, it will not increase the disease rate, rather it will do the opposite.
The article claims gay marriage will have negative effects on the society, but there are no studies that have been done to confirm or disprve either point.
I can remember, marriage statistics in Sweden actually increased once the country passed same sex partnership laws, so this suggests gay marriage doesnt hurt traditional amrriage after all.
Reply

جوري
03-14-2010, 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by M.A.S.H.
Not because I said so. It's an assumption.
The provided data does not speak about the influence of gay amrriage on promiscuity amongst homosexuals.
Of course it is about beliefs, it is a purely ideological article that admits it takes its inspiration from the Holy Cathecism and it only quotes surveys that fit its agenda.
I agree with the statistics, certain diseases are more prevalent in gay men who do tend to be more prmoscous, but my point is this:
Gay marriage will not increase promiscuity, it will not increase the disease rate, rather it will do the opposite.
The article claims gay marriage will have negative effects on the society, but there are no studies that have been done to confirm or disprve either point.
I can remember, marriage statistics in Sweden actually increased once the country passed same sex partnership laws, so this suggests gay marriage doesnt hurt traditional amrriage after all.
Greetings,

Your concept of 'Hurt' is a little too literal.. things don't have to hurt in the traditional sense or whatever your definition is of it for it to be felt by society at large .. simply having billions of health-care dollars shifted to this one area and cut from another is in an of itself a hurt.. the same way when billions are shifted for diseases caused by drugs and alcohol why, simply because it is preventable, this is just an example not the only one.

This topic isn't merely about gay marriages although, it is in and of itself an oddity, it is about the entire act... your concept of not increasing promiscuity is equally odd to me.. If you invent a test that detects prostate cancer early will that curb on the prevalence of prostate cancer? in fact you'll find the number of cases increased, but the conclusion that one reaches is it neither increases the number of cases nor does it increase its prevalence, you have simply made an earlier cut-off point, where folks who would have been diagnosed at 50 are now diagnoses at 48. Follow that same analogy for promiscuity and gay-marriages. It will not suddenly elicit a commitment when the whole life-style is unhealthy!

on a last note:
There many things in modern medicine or science that I don't ethically agree with, it doesn't make me a phobic or a bigot.
for instance, I understand perfectly the need for many to have a child and the painful conventional treatments that they undergo, as I have seen it in my own family, but I don't approve of someone counteracting their own biology and what fate has decreed and getting donated eggs and sperm and a surrogate. Maybe it has become common place that no one understands the long term implications or even the other worldly ones -- but there is something to be said to holding on to ones religious code of ethics!

all the best
Reply

M.A.S.H.
03-14-2010, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Your concept of 'Hurt' is a little too literal.. things don't have to hurt in the traditional sense or whatever your definition is of it for it to be felt by society at large .. simply having billions of health-care dollars shifted to this one area and cut from another is in an of itself a hurt.. the same way when billions are shifted for diseases caused by drugs and alcohol why, simply because it is preventable, this is just an example not the only one.

This topic isn't merely about gay marriages although, it is in and of itself an oddity, it is about the entire act... your concept of not increasing promiscuity is equally odd to me.. If you invent a test that detects prostate cancer early will that curb on the prevalence of prostate cancer? in fact you'll find the number of cases increased, but the conclusion that one reaches is it neither increases the number of cases nor does it increase its prevalence, you have simply made an earlier cut-off point, where folks who would have been diagnosed at 50 are now diagnoses at 48. Follow that same analogy for promiscuity and gay-marriages. It will not suddenly elicit a commitment when the whole life-style is unhealthy
How exactly will allowing gay marriage increase health care expenditure?
I don't see how prostate cancer analogy applies here. What I'm saying is that everything gay marriage will do is enable certain individuals enter a union and benefit from inheritance, hospital visits etc. It will not increase the number of gay men having risky sex, ergo it will not increase health care expenditure. I believe its effect can be opposite actually, a legally committed gay couple is less likely to indulge in promiscuous act, hence gay marriage may even decrease health care expenditures.
Anyway, anal sex, homosexual or heterosexual, is more riskier for acquiring a venereal disease, which is irrelevant in most cases as long as you use a condom and most of all, be able to trust one's partner.
Anal sex in a monogamous non-infected couple poses a minor increase in risk compared to vaginal sex.
Reply

جوري
03-14-2010, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by M.A.S.H.
How exactly will allowing gay marriage increase health care expenditure?
I don't see how prostate cancer analogy applies here. What I'm saying is that everything gay marriage will do is enable certain individuals enter a union and benefit from inheritance, hospital visits etc. It will not increase the number of gay men having risky sex, ergo it will not increase health care expenditure. I believe its effect can be opposite actually, a legally committed gay couple is less likely to indulge in promiscuous act, hence gay marriage may even decrease health care expenditures.
Anyway, anal sex, homosexual or heterosexual, is more riskier for acquiring a venereal disease, which is irrelevant in most cases as long as you use a condom and most of all, be able to trust one's partner.
Anal sex in a monogamous non-infected couple poses a minor increase in risk compared to vaginal sex.
Greetings,

read everything I have written again, as I detest repeating myself.. and put it all under the heading of problems with homosexual relations rather than the distillate of that coming under 'gay marriage' a marriage is the least of our problems when the whole life-style. I don't understand the difficulty many of you have sticking with a topic as a whole rather than making an issue of a particular part. At that point abstract analogies will make better sense!

I think we are done here!

all the best
Reply

M.A.S.H.
03-14-2010, 06:52 PM
All I'm saying is allowing gay marriage may improve the general health condition of the gay population and as studies do not seem to suggest negative effects exist, it should be allowed.
Reply

Italianguy
03-14-2010, 07:23 PM
Gay marriage shouldn't be allowed. It does have an impact on society. 30 years ago you didn't hear much of it, and when you did it wasn't accepted. Now, people in general have becaome acustomed to this practice and feel it is ok because there is no reall way to deal with it...legally. Once society becomes ok with this, as it has, it influences others into thinking it is ok. Over time it will ruin the sanctity of NORMAL marriage (as a reminder; normal marriage is between a man and a woman, for those who have seemed to have forgotten). Now, some states and provinces have legally allowed this mess. Letting gays become legally married does effect society. We shouldn't be accepting of this, well, at least I don't have to.

Wether it be Christians or Muslims is a different subject. We as believers do have to follow Gods commandments. And it is written in all religions books that we aren't to commit a sin such as this. As for Agnostics and atheists...do whatever you please, your the one who has to answer to God for your decisions...not me.

God be with you.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!