How the Bible viewed the prophets?

[Danah]

Peace

I am reading an e-book of Bible stories and that book is telling many stories without quoting enough verses from the bible to support the narrations.

I already know how the bible talked about the prophets Noah and Lot peace and blessing be upon them. I need to know more about other prophets and how the bible mentioned them.


"I already searched if this topic was already posted but I didn't find any..I hope my search was accurate though" :X

[Danah]

Thanks for your fast approving.

[Grace Seeker]

Danah, to answer this question properly would be to basically do a copy and paste job from the Bible to LI. I'll spare you that, but recommend that you simply read the Biblical texts.

The common word for prophet in Hebrew is nabi' and the LXX usually renders it by the Greek word prophetes which is also used for prophets in the NT. Both are commonly rendered "prophet" in English translations. Two other Hebrew words are associated with prophetic figures: חֹזֶה hozeh and רֹאֶה ro'eh both mean "someone who sees" and can be literally rendered "seer". However [i]ro'eh[i] was already an old fashioned word when 1 Samuel 9:9 was written.

The words nabi' and hozeh are close synonyms, in Amos 7:12 Amaziah calls Amos "hozeh", but suggests that he "prophesy" in Judah (verb naba' נבא from same root as nabi' נָבִיא), while in Ezra 13:9 the noun verb [i]hazah[i] has "prophet" as its subject and in Isaiah 29:10 nabi' & hozeh are in parallel.

In the NT, John the Baptist is far and away the most well-known prophet. In a sense all of the disciples, Stephen, Paul, Barnabas and a number of other figures also have prophetic roles as the NT understanding of prophecy is anyone who speaks forth a message on God's behalf. Some named prophets in the NT include: Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen, Judas (not Iscariot), Silas, Agabus, and Ana. In most cases all we have is their name, others have a couple of verses for the entirety of their story.

Popular views of the biblical prophets see them as "religious" figures. This is wrong in two ways. Firstly it suggests a separation of religion and the rest of life which is modern and Western In Ancient Israel there was not a distinct private religious sphere. Secondly it suggests that they spoke about "religious" issues. They did, but they spoke more about what we call politics. Even prophets who had a strong burden to correct false religious practice, like Hosea, addressed political issues strongly too (cf. Hos 5:11 with 5:13; 9:1 with 9:3).

Much of the Bible is itself a collection of prophetic texts. The major prophets (so called because of the size of the books, not importance) are Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel. And the 12 minor prophets are Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi. In addition some of the most revered prophets are written about in other books -- Moses and Elijah are probably the two most important figures in Jewish literature. Some other prophets that I think have interesting stories connected with them are Nathan, Samuel, Elisha, and even Balaam (who was not a prophet of God).

I understand that Islam considers Noah and Lot to be prophets, but they aren't generally thought of that way by Christians at least; I can't speak for Jewish views. (The link Judaism 101 has a good article on "Prophets and Prophecy" from a Jewish perspective.) Likewise Abraham is thought of as a patriarch, and David as a king, but neither are generally viewed as prophets -- though I suspect if you find an exhaustive list of biblical prophets they will probably be included on it.

[Danah]

but recommend that you simply read the Biblical texts.

imm..I would do that, but thought that I might find a quick answer here since I have so many things to do at the meantime.

Popular views of the biblical prophets see them as "religious" figures. This is wrong in two ways.

Is this something viewed by many Christians too?

I understand that Islam considers Noah and Lot to be prophets, but they aren't generally thought of that way by Christians at least; I can't speak for Jewish views. (The link Judaism 101 has a good article on "Prophets and Prophecy" from a Jewish perspective.) Likewise Abraham is thought of as a patriarch, and David as a king, but neither are generally viewed as prophets --

This is the first time I heard a Christians said that Noah is not considered as a prophet. I remember reading a chapter in Genesis saying that God said to Noah to build the ark and he told him how this ark should be built. Did God speak to just anyone?

though I suspect if you find an exhaustive list of biblical prophets they will probably be included on it.

Yeah I did, and they are all there listed under the "Old Testament Bible Prophets"


So let me be more specific now. I am interested in knowing about the following before finishing the book I am reading now:
1. Jonah
2. Jacob
3. Isaac
4. Joseph
5. Abraham
6. David

EDIT: I also want to know about the following if possible:
7. Daniel
8. Zechariah


As for those you mentioned that was viewed as King and a patriarch, I would like to see how the bible viewed them to "not" be prophets.

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[Grace Seeker]

Is this something viewed by many Christians too?

Certainly Christians are among those who not only accept popular ideas, but pass them on giving them an air of accpetance. When radio preachers do this, or posting are made on internet websites they sometimes even become perceived as somehow being authoritative. Such things are a mixed bag. And sorting out the best content from that which ranges from truly scholarly to the mundane or pendantic and then all the way to utterly false is a major issue of discernment. I feel for anyone trying to navigate those channels for the waters is often muddy and the task it is not easy.

This is the first time I heard a Christians said that Noah is not considered as a prophet. I remember reading a chapter in Genesis saying that God said to Noah to build the ark and he told him how this ark should be built. Did God speak to just anyone?

That God speaks to a person does not make that individual a prophet. I would contend that God speaks to all of us. But we are not all prophets.

The story of Noah as told in Genesis has Noah ordered to build an ark. He does. He is ordered to prepare it to accept the animals that God will gather to it. He does. He is told to get his family on board. He does. But there is no record that he is told to give a message to anyone. It would be conjecture to argue from the biblical text that Noah either did or did not have a message for those around him who watched him build the ark. We simply don't know what he did. Did he keep his nose to the grindstone ignore the taunts of his neighbors, or did he actively go out and plead with them to change their ways. We simply don't know. And so, without evidence that Noah was more than obedient to the task given him, I don't list Noah among the prophets who went forth speaking on God's behalf.

So let me be more specific now. I am interested in knowing about the following before finishing the book I am reading now:
1. Jonah
2. Jacob
3. Isaac
4. Joseph
5. Abraham
6. David

EDIT: I also want to know about the following if possible:
7. Daniel
8. Zechariah


As for those you mentioned that was viewed as King and a patriarch, I would like to see how the bible viewed them to "not" be prophets.

A king is not automatically a prophet. Remember, a prophet is one who speaks forth on God's behalf. Ruling on God's behalf is being obedient, but it does not make one a prophet.

I did a quick search for every verse that includes the mention of David and the word "prophet", here are my results:

1 Samuel 19:20
Then Saul sent messengers to take David, and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.

1 Samuel 22:5
Then the prophet Gad said to David, "Do not remain in the stronghold; depart, and go into the land of Judah." So David departed and went into the forest of Hereth.

2 Samuel 24:11
And when David arose in the morning, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying,

1 Kings 1:8
But Zadok the priest and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada and Nathan the prophet and Shimei and Rei and David’s mighty men were not with Adonijah.

1 Kings 1:32
King David said, "Call to me Zadok the priest, Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada." So they came before the king.

1 Kings 1:38
So Zadok the priest, Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and the Cherethites and the Pelethites went down and had Solomon ride on King David’s mule and brought him to Gihon.

1 Chronicles 17:1
Now when David lived in his house, David said to Nathan the prophet, "Behold, I dwell in a house of cedar, but the ark of the covenant of the LORD is under a tent."

1 Chronicles 29:29
Now the acts of King David, from first to last, are written in the Chronicles of Samuel the seer, and in the Chronicles of Nathan the prophet, and in the Chronicles of Gad the seer,

2 Chronicles 21:12
And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, "Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father, 'Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

2 Chronicles 29:25
And he stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, harps, and lyres, according to the commandment of David and of Gad the king’s seer and of Nathan the prophet, for the commandment was from the LORD through his prophets.

Psalm 51:1
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy on me, O God,according to your steadfast love;according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions.

Jeremiah 13:13
Then you shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD: Behold, I will fill with drunkenness all the inhabitants of this land: the kings who sit on David’s throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Hebrews 11:32
And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets—

You'll note that prophets come and speak on God's behalf to David, but David himself never speaks to anyone as a prophet. The only verse that might even be understood to imply that David was a prophet is Hebrews 11:32. But this verse lists people who are judges, King David, and the prophet Samuel as part of a much longer list of persons of notable faith. It would be a stretch to consider David a prophet based on this verse alone.

I did the same sort of search for Abraham and the word "prophet". The results are:

1 Kings 18:36
And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word.

Luke 13:28
In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.

Luke 16:29
But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'

John 8:52
The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.'

John 8:53
Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?"

Acts 3:25
You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'

Again, I don't see anything that identifies Abraham as a prophet. The closest among these is Luke 13:28. But I do not read this verse to indicate that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are being numbered among the prophets (if it does are you prepared to include Isaac and Jacob among the prophets of Islam?), but rather that they are listed as individuals, and the prophets are listed as a group. Certainly that is the pattern of the other passages similarly constructed passages.


With regard to the individuals you mention, what would you like to know about them?

[Danah]

Certainly Christians are among those who not only accept popular ideas, but pass them on giving them an air of accpetance. When radio preachers do this, or posting are made on internet websites they sometimes even become perceived as somehow being authoritative. Such things are a mixed bag. And sorting out the best content from that which ranges from truly scholarly to the mundane or pendantic and then all the way to utterly false is a major issue of discernment. I feel for anyone trying to navigate those channels for the waters is often muddy and the task it is not easy.

Thanks for that info.

That God speaks to a person does not make that individual a prophet. I would contend that God speaks to all of us. But we are not all prophets.

That might be depending on the way God talks to a person. Did the bible mention the way that Noah received the description of the ark?

God speaks to all of us? you may refer to a certain feeling the one may feel as if the God is talking to him, but the bible was very clear when it use the word "God said to Noah"

okay here is what I meant:

Genesis 6:
13 And God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 "Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch. 15 And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16 You shall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from above; and set the door of the ark in its side. You shall make it with lower, second, and third decks. 17 And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die. 18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark--you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. 21 And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them."
22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God commanded him, so he did.

I think that this not like talking to a normal person at all..its so direct.

A king is not automatically a prophet. Remember, a prophet is one who speaks forth on God's behalf. Ruling on God's behalf is being obedient, but it does not make one a prophet.

yeah sure, I know that, I am just referring to them as you described them

Again, I don't see anything that identifies Abraham as a prophet. The closest among these is Luke 13:28. But I do not read this verse to indicate that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

Is this something you view by yourself? or something widely known....I would appreciate a good source for that.

See here....God is ordering him so directly:

"The Lord had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Genesis 12:1-3)

And see here what Paul said about him:

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all Romans 4:16

Can this be about a normal person?

But I do not read this verse to indicate that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are being numbered among the prophets (if it does are you prepared to include Isaac and Jacob among the prophets of Islam?)

Well, its not me who can accept them or reject them. Quran was very clear in including them among the prophets peace be upon them.

but rather that they are listed as individuals, and the prophets are listed as a group. Certainly that is the pattern of the other passages similarly constructed passages.

Sorry, but what do you mean by listed as group?

With regard to the individuals you mention, what would you like to know about them?

In general, like their upbringing -if its available-, how they spent their life and dealt with people whom they supposed to deliver the message to (supposing that they are viewed as prophets in the bible)

[Grace Seeker]

Rather than trying to pick lines out of your post, I'm going to summarize what I think I am reading between the lines. It seems that you see God make a covenant with Noah, call Abraham, speak to and work with them in special and unique ways, and your conclusion is that they are not just any old, normal, run-of-the-mill person. I agree. But being special does not equate with being a prophet. They might even be seen (probably are seen by Jews) as more special than some of the lesser prophets (this is especially true with regard to Abraham), but specialness and being chosen by God for some specific task does not make one a prophet, unless that task is to perform the role and work of a prophet -- i.e., speaking forth on God's behalf. Moses did that. Elijah did that. Jonah did that (although poorly). But I don't see Noah being described as having done that. Where do you see it having happened?

Here is Noah's entire life story as found in the Bible. Perhaps I'm missing something. Remember, we are not looking for evidence that Noah was good, righteous, obedient, called by God, used by God, did things for God or was otherwise a faithful servant of God in anyway. We are looking specifically to see if Noah spoke forth on God's behalf -- it could be a word of blessing, of warning, of encouragment, of guidance, or even future telling, but it has to be something he says as if he is the mouth of God.

Genesis 5
28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah and said, "He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed." 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31 Altogether, Lamech lived 777 years, and then he died.

32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.


Genesis 6
1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

9 This is the account of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. 16 Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.


Genesis 7
1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

5 And Noah did all that the LORD commanded him.

6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.

17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.


Genesis 8
1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. 2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. 3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, 4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. 5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.

6 After forty days Noah opened the window he had made in the ark 7 and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. 8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground. 9 But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. 10 He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. 11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth. 12 He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him.

13 By the first day of the first month of Noah's six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry. 14 By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry.

15 Then God said to Noah, 16 "Come out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and their wives. 17 Bring out every kind of living creature that is with you—the birds, the animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground—so they can multiply on the earth and be fruitful and increase in number upon it."

18 So Noah came out, together with his sons and his wife and his sons' wives. 19 All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birds—everything that moves on the earth—came out of the ark, one kind after another.

20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

22 "As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease."


Genesis 9
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

12 And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."

17 So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth."

18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.

24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
"Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers."

26 He also said,
"Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem!
May Canaan be the slave of Shem.

27 May God extend the territory of Japheth;
may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,
and may Canaan be his slave."

28 After the flood Noah lived 350 years. 29 Altogether, Noah lived 950 years, and then he died.

I might have missed it, but I don't see Noah delivering any message on God's behalf. Indeed, if Matthew is correct in the reference he makes to Noah, Noah didn't share any warnings with his fellow inhabitants of earth, for "they knew nothing about what would happen":

Matthew 24
37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Hebrews tells us that Noah was himself warned, but never says that he warned anyone else.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

When it says that Noah condemned the world, I don't get the impression that it is refering to Noah delivering a message.

That's not to say that Noah could not have been a prophet, I just don't see him doing the work of a prophet in any of these passages. The one possible exception might be 2 Peter 2:5 which refers to Noah as a "preacher of righteousness." Now, certainly in the context of the New Testament where this if found, preachers were people who spoke forth for God. But, the New Testament also recognized that there were several offices in which people might do that, and not all of them were called prophets:

1 Corinthians 12
28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

So, that's about all of the information I can share with you regarding Noah. Based on it I'm not prepared to say that he never prophecied on God's behalf, but I also can't confirm that he did. If you want to think of him as a prophet, that's fine. He certainly was a righteous man that allowed himself to be used by God. And if you were to find where he was a prophet, it wouldn't change that aspect of Noah's character by either addition or substraction. But without evidence of him speaking forth like a prophet where his story is told in Genesis, or him specifically being listed as a prophet elsewhere in the scriptures, it just isn't one of the titles I would ascribe to him.


I'm not going to duplicate what I've done above with Noah for Abraham, but I believe if I did, it would produce similar results. A great man of faith, but not one who was asked to functioned in the role of a prophet.




I wonder now if I misunderstood when in your post two back you said, "As for those you mentioned that was viewed as King and a patriarch, I would like to see how the bible viewed them to "not" be prophets." To whom were you referring?


I'm afraind, the rest of what you have asked about is simply going to have to wait till I have more time another day.

[Danah]

Its a good thing that I was too busy last week to post here, because if I did, my posts would have been deleted because of the upgrade :)

I wonder now if I misunderstood when in your post two back you said, "As for those you mentioned that was viewed as King and a patriarch, I would like to see how the bible viewed them to "not" be prophets." To whom were you referring?

No, you didn't. I was referring to Abraham "patriarch" and David "king" and how did the bible view them in a way that can't tell that they are prophets.


One more thing, do all Christian denominations agreed that Noah and Abraham are not prophets?


I will be waiting for the rest whenever you have time
Thanks in advance.

[Grace Seeker]

One more thing, do all Christian denominations agreed that Noah and Abraham are not prophets?

No. Getting all Christian denominations to agree on almost anything is rather like trying to get Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims to agree on the successor to Muhammad (pbuh). We can agree on the biggest of issues, but its in the details that we fight with each other.

Anyway, I'm beginning to think that maybe I was wrong in some of those other statements with regard to Abraham and David. I came across a Bible passage yesterday in my devotional reading that clearly referred to David as a prophet. I imagine I would have gone right by it without taking notice of it if we hadn't been having this discussion. And I already knew that there was a similar verse with regard to Abraham. Can't say with respect to Noah yet, but I think I had better back up and restate (i.e., correct) some of what I said earlier. I'm first going to change from speaking on behalf of all Christians, to speaking for myself alone. Though what I'm expressing is reflecting of what I have experienced over the course of 53 years as a member of my own denomination, it is my experience and not a dogmatic position found in the written documents of my church.


So, rather than say that Noah, Abraham, and David are NOT prophets, I think it is safer to say that I just don't think of them first as prophets. They may have also been prophets, but I primarily think of them in their other roles as patriach (Abraham), king (David), and servants of God (all of them) which I see as the principal ways we talk about them.

[Al-manar]

Abraham is thought of as a patriarch, and David as a king, but neither are generally viewed as prophets -- though I suspect if you find an exhaustive list of biblical prophets they will probably be included on it.

Genesis 20

1 Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar, 2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, "She is my sister." Then Abimelech king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman."
4 Now Abimelech had not gone near her, so he said, "Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? 5 Did he not say to me, 'She is my sister,' and didn't she also say, 'He is my brother'? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands."
6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her. 7 Now return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all yours will die."


more to be said later..........................

peace

[Al-manar]

I have just seen your last post right now after posting mine....

though I wonder the following

So, rather than say that Noah, Abraham, and David are NOT prophets, I think it is safer to say that I just don't think of them first as prophets. They may have also been prophets.

May have been prophets?!!!

so you feel like it is a propability that when God called Abraham a prophet in Genesis ,he meant what he says?!

I don't think it should be a matter of guessing..... God called Abraham a prophet and that is enough to take the matter with certainity...


regards

[Danah]

No. Getting all Christian denominations to agree on almost anything is rather like trying to get Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims to agree on the successor to Muhammad (pbuh). We can agree on the biggest of issues, but its in the details that we fight with each other.

Its because most of the sources I read from said that they are prophets so I was very confused by your statements here, hence wanted to double check that again.

Anyway, I'm beginning to think that maybe I was wrong in some of those other statements with regard to Abraham and David. I came across a Bible passage yesterday in my devotional reading that clearly referred to David as a prophet. I imagine I would have gone right by it without taking notice of it if we hadn't been having this discussion. And I already knew that there was a similar verse with regard to Abraham.

Talking about Abraham, are you referring to the same verse that Al-manar just posted above in post #10? or some other verse?

As for David, I would like to know the verse that clearly referred to him as a prophet.

Can't say with respect to Noah yet, but I think I had better back up and restate (i.e., correct) some of what I said earlier. I'm first going to change from speaking on behalf of all Christians, to speaking for myself alone. Though what I'm expressing is reflecting of what I have experienced over the course of 53 years as a member of my own denomination, it is my experience and not a dogmatic position found in the written documents of my church.

So, rather than say that Noah, Abraham, and David are NOT prophets, I think it is safer to say that I just don't think of them first as prophets. They may have also been prophets, but I primarily think of them in their other roles as patriach (Abraham), king (David), and servants of God (all of them) which I see as the principal ways we talk about them.

Thanks for being clear about that.

[Grace Seeker]

The verse with regard to King David is: "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne" (Acts 2:29-30).

The verse that I was thinking of for Abraham is also in the New Testament, but I don't recall it at this time.

Yes, Al-manr, I recognize Abraham as a prophet. But, no, I don't think of him that way, nor do I think of David that way, even after reading that verse. Maybe this is a failing on my part, but I don't really think so. Both may have been prophets (the use of "may" not implying doubt or uncertainty, but in the sense of allowing that it is so), but this still isn't how I think of them because it isn't how they are primarily known and spoken of. Let me use a parallel from modern life to explain why I don't. Hilary Clinton may be a first lady of the United States, but this isn't how I primarily think of her anymore either. Instead, I think of her as Secretary of State, for that is her primary role as far as I am concerned. This doesn't mean that when an exhaustive list of the First Ladies of the United States if published that it should not include her, it should, but when I read her biography I would expect her role as Secretary of State to be listed first as being primary. So, too, Abraham and David should indeed both be listed among the lists of prophets. Being educated on this and reminded of it is a good thing. I don't want to overlook it. But in terms of their primary roles with respect to the history of Israel, the roles that are most significant in the life of the nation of Israel are, respectively, that of patriarch and king.

Also, perhaps it is worthy of note, when authors of the New Testament refer to "the prophets" as a group, it does not necessarily mean they are referrencing all of the propehts. One must read the context, but often they are not referencing the the prophets as individuals, but rather the work of the prophets as a set type of literature. Israel's greatest prophets are generally considered to be Moses and Elijah, but when speaking of "the Law and the Prophets", it means the Torah literature by the first term, and by the second those writings known as the works of the major and minor prophets. In that second set neither Moses nor Elijah would be included. So, if those who are well known principally as prophets are not meant when Jesus says,
"All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:40) or "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it" (Luke 16:16), then I think it fair to say that Jesus doesn't have Abraham or David in mind in these reference either.

That's not to say that they aren't being referenced in statements like, "Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world..." (Luke 11:50). But it must be remembered that Abraham, Moses, and David all died of old age. So, I think passages such as these refer not to them but to those prophets, like Jeremiah, that were killed. Nevertheless, surely Abraham, Moses, David, and Elijah are every bit as included as are Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, and Micah when the author of Hebrews penned: "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe" (Hebrews 1:1-2). I'm just used to thinking in terms of the context of the phrase "the propehts" as a reference to those books by Isaiah, Jeremiah (including the book of Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi) which are known ollectively as "The Prophets," and then I remind myself that there were other prophets such as I have already named. But with regard to Abraham and David we see them primarily exercising other roles in scipture. It doesn't mean that they aren't also prophets, but (whether you find it reasonable or not) it is why I don't think of them that way.

[Grace Seeker]

Now, with regard to how the Bible viewed the prophets, just my own confusion above shows that we have to be careful and not speak of them as a single unit. When we do so, we are really talking about the collected prophet writings more than about individual prophets.

To make other general statements about the prophets would simply be to reaffirm the overall role of a prophet being one who speaks forth on God's behalf. Moses did that in a unique way as being the intermediary through whom God gave the nation of Israel the Law. If we look at Abraham, in addition to being a patriarch of the nation, he was also unique in being given the special title "friend of God" (James 2:23). And kings like David, Solomon, Ahaz, Hezekiah, and Josiah (some good and some bad) were all given the task of ruling under God's authority and guidance. It is during the time of the monarchy that it seems the prophets did the majority of their work, and during that time they mostly served as a moral compass. They would bring words of reproof and correction from God either directly to (and often against) the king, as Nathan did with King David (see 2 Samuel) and Elijah did with King Ahab (see 1 Kings 18), and they would do the same with the nation as a whole such as Isaiah and Micah brought during the reign of Ahaz. Often time their messages were delivered not just through words, but also by prophetic sign (see Ezekiel 4 or Micah 1:8).

Not all prophets were themselves compliant with God's purposes. Jonah is an interesting study in rebellion by a prophet. He is commanded to go to the city of Ninevah and preach against it because of its wickedness, but Jonah hated Ninevah and was apparently pleased with the idea of God destroying it because of its wickedness. And so, rather than going as he was commanded, he ran away so that he would not be able to share the message that God had given him. The part of the story that seems to interest most people is that in the process of running away he actually preferred to be thrown overboard from a ship and drown in the sea than to deliver a message that might bring about repentance on the part of the Ninivites. When that happened he was rescued by God who sent a great fish to swallow Jonah and then, after 3 days in the fish (and Jonah's own repentance at having run from what God called him to do) God cause the fish to vomit Jonah alive on dry land. From there he went to Ninevah, preached a simple message: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." and then waited for God to in fact destroy Ninevah. But instead, Ninevah repented and the rest of the story has more to do with God's relationship with his reluctant prophet and what Jonah needs to learn about God's mercy than the message to Ninevah.

Generally, what we know about Biblical prophets are just small snapshots of a few moments in their lives as they deliver God's message. Rare is it that we have a prophet's entire life story like we do with Samuel.

[Al-manar]

Now, with regard to how the Bible viewed the prophets, we have to be careful and not speak of them as a single unit. .

that is fine in Islamic terms ,with an exception.....

prophets are not all the same, among them those who receive the highest reverence for their perseverance and unusually strong commitment to God in the face of great suffering, namely
1. Nuh (Noah)
2. Ibrahim (Abraham)
3. Musa (Moses)
4. Isa (Jesus)
5. Muhammad


besides we believe that every messenger as a prophet as well, but not every prophet as a messenger.
it appears also that the Quran would rank a messenger higher than a prophet.

Just one concept we disagree on ....... It is the claiming that God's prophets who have been chosen by the almighty to be

“Verily in the Messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the last Day, and remembereth Allah much.” (Al-Ahzab: 21)


to have commited major sins

I feel sorry when I read that Noah got drunk, got naked ..... not only that ,but also the text claims that the poor son Ham ,who saw unitentionally the nakedness of his father ,his seed been cursed and destined to be slaves generation after generation ....such curse had been used to justify racism and the enslavement of people of Black African ancestry

I feel sorry when I read such the story that views a prophet commiting major sin...

but I feel more sorry when the story claims the Almighty with his absolute justice, giving the green light for establishing such awful racism....

Even Some Biblical scholars see the "curse of Canaan" story as an early Hebrew rationalization for Israel's conquest and enslavement of the Canaanites, who were presumed to descend from Canaan.


I feel sorry when I read that the prophet Lot got drunk and been raped by his daughters !!

Imagine a man sent for treating a sexual perversion (sodomy) to experience another sexual perversion .....


I feel sorry when I read that prophet David comitted adultery with a cheater wife ( Bathsheba),and murdering the man afterwards....

more sorry when I read that God ordered adultry before the sun


(2 Sam. 12:11-12). 11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.......................


I feel sorry when I find God order his prophet (Hosea) to take a harlot

the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of *****doms and children of *****doms: for the land hath committed great *****dom, departing from the Lord" (Hosea 1:2).


no doubt the worst depiction of a prophet ever would be the case of Solomon..... the text accuses him of something that is beyond major sin.....

it is the belief itself.....



1 Kings 11:7-8
7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.



1 Kings 11
4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech...

[Asiyah3]

I'm sorry Danah for commenting here, but are there prophets in Christianity?
In a christian discussion they stated that there are no prophets. Oh, I see? Must be due to the catholic/protestant/orthodox... difference in views.

[Grace Seeker]

I'm sorry Danah for commenting here, but are there prophets in Christianity?
In a christian discussion they stated that there are no prophets. Oh, I see? Must be due to the catholic/protestant/orthodox... difference in views.

Yes, there are prophets in Christianity. I've never heard any individual Christian or denominational body deny their existence. I don't know the context of the discussion your refer to, perhaps it was more about whether Christians think that there are still prophets today? Some Christian groups do believe that there are still prophets among us today and some do not. But as to whether there were ever prophets, I feel pretty safe in asserting that we all think there were.

[Asiyah3]

Yes, there are prophets in Christianity. I've never heard any individual Christian or denominational body deny their existence. I don't know the context of the discussion your refer to, perhaps it was more about whether Christians think that there are still prophets today?

No it wasn't that. There was a discussion going on about a muslim who had the name of a prophet. The debate was about his faith, whether he was a muslim or a christian. And I heard one of them comment "Since when has Christianity had prophets ^o)"

Some Christian groups do believe that there are still prophets among us today and some do not. But as to whether there were ever prophets, I feel pretty safe in asserting that we all think there were.

I've always assumed so. That's why I was wondering...

[Grace Seeker]

besides we believe that every messenger as a prophet as well, but not every prophet as a messenger.
it appears also that the Quran would rank a messenger higher than a prophet.

Interesting you should say that. I brought this discussion up with a group of my neighboring clergy yesterday (all of my own United Methodist, protestant denomination, btw), and in conversation we agreed that we tended to see messenger as the overarching category and prophet as a subset of one particular type of messenger (apostles and angels being examples of messengers who were not prophets).

For Danah's information, no one wanted to argue that Abraham, David, or anyone else was NOT a prophet. But as we tried to think of why they might be termed a prophet, we had trouble doing so. We could see them as messengers, and when using the term prophet as nothing more than a synonym for one who carries God's message, or one who speaks forth on God's behalf, then we felt comfortable calling all sorts of people propehts. But we tend to veiw prophets in a more narrow sense than that of messenger. For instance, the word apostle means one who is sent, and sense all of the apostles were sent with a message about Jesus Christ, and we believe this message is from God, then by definition all apostles would automatically also be prophets. But when we thought of people like Abraham, we had trouble naming any specific message that Abraham carried or delivered, other than the obvious fact that he was a carrier of the truth that there is just one God who is over all, and that local pagan dieties carved out of wood and stone and displayed above one hearth aren't really gods at all. And that essential message should never be diminished in importance. But, still, we couldn't think of any time where Abraham actually spoke forth as one who brought a message on God's behalf. In the Biblical account he is faithful, he is righteous, he is hospitable, he is compassionate, he leads his family, he even intercedes with God on behalf of his nephew Lot. But we do see him functioning as we generally think of a prophet functioning. Yet, we recognize that he is indeed termed a prophet in the text of the Bible itself. We just don't have any idea as to why.

Just one concept we disagree on ....... It is the claiming that God's prophets who have been chosen by the almighty to be

“Verily in the Messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the last Day, and remembereth Allah much.” (Al-Ahzab: 21)

to have commited major sins .

Yes, I am aware that such a concept is beyond even the imagination of most Muslims. How could one that God has chosen to be a recipient of his special revelation behave thusly and still be God's chosen person? Or, stated differently, how could an imperfect vessel become the recipient of God's perfect word?

I actually understand that response. I'm not going to try to convince you that our account is right and yours is wrong. For either of us to do that to the other would be to ask someone to throw his/her most sacred texts. But I wll share with you that looking at it from another perspective, there is something comforting in knowing that God can use even imperfect instruments for his perfect purposes. I'm glad that the Bible didn't whitewash all of the characters and present them to us as perfect ideals without flaws. I'm glad it makes them known to us warts and all. In so doing, I am reminded then that the faith and obedience of Abraham is not something beyond my capacity, for he was imperfect as I, but yet look at what he did. And that even a sinner like David can still be one who has a heart for God. If that is true of them, then there is still hope for me, if I will just persevere. Even if I stumble in following, I can get back up and try again, for they did and are known today not for their failings, but for their faith.

I feel sorry when I read that Noah got drunk, got naked ..... not only that ,but also the text claims that the poor son Ham ,who saw unitentionally the nakedness of his father ,his seed been cursed and destined to be slaves generation after generation ....such curse had been used to justify racism and the enslavement of people of Black African ancestry

I feel sorry when I read such the story that views a prophet commiting major sin...

but I feel more sorry when the story claims the Almighty with his absolute justice, giving the green light for establishing such awful racism....

Even Some Biblical scholars see the "curse of Canaan" story as an early Hebrew rationalization for Israel's conquest and enslavement of the Canaanites, who were presumed to descend from Canaan.

Yeah, I hate that story, too. And I agree that it reflects poorly on God as well. I have to confess that this is when it is important to realize that I am not a Biblical literalist and do not believe in a dictation theory with regard to the production of the biblical text. I tend to see the hand of the authors more than that of God in the projections that they put forth with regard to how God viewed these events. I hadn't heard the theory of the story as a way of rationalizing Israel's enslavement of the Canaanites. I've heard other explanations from other sources, but the possibility of it being something written back into the story is not something I will completely exclude.

Not committing on everything but advancing to:

I feel sorry when I find God order his prophet (Hosea) to take a harlot

the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of *****doms and children of *****doms: for the land hath committed great *****dom, departing from the Lord" (Hosea 1:2).

Hosea is actually one of my favorite prophets, apparently for the very reason you don't like his story. I see in it such a wonderful message of God's grace and love. It speaks of how God's abiding faithfulness is present even in the midst of our own unfaithfulness. It is true that Israel had strayed from the ways of God. What Hosea does is to live out before the nations eyes what they themselves were themselves doing with regard to their relationship with God. They would have all spurned a harlot wife, either divorced her or, perhaps, even had her put to death for her unfaithfulness. Yet, this is exactly how they were living in their relationship with YHWH. By doing more than just preaching on it, but by living out the message in their midst, I believe that Hosea was able to more effectively deliver that message and bring it home to how it applied in their own personal lives and in the life of the nation.

Perhaps you object to God telling Hosea to do this? I'm not sure, but perhaps you think this is unfair of God and that he is being unjust with regard to his own treatment of Hosea. But Hosea still has free will. He isn't under compulsion. It is his choice if he is willing to bring this message or not.

The good news is that Hosea is able to promise reconciliation. He has it personally with Gomer and God offers it to us.

no doubt the worst depiction of a prophet ever would be the case of Solomon..... the text accuses him of something that is beyond major sin.....

it is the belief itself.....

1 Kings 11
4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech...
7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

Well, first, I don't recall Solomon being among the list of those that we Christians would call prophets. But I grant you as a King of Israel he was lax. His inattention to the covenant prevented him from being the truly great King that he could have been. But beyond that, whether prophet, priest or king, Solomon is one of those great figures with a tragic flaw. I don't find making that statement to be shameful, and I certainly don't apologize for it. If it is truth, it needs to be shared, not covered up. Now, you don't think it is true. That is well and good, so there is no reason for you to share that aspect of the story. But, if God's prophets were all perfect, and God always works to preserve his word and keep his message pure, then how did it ever get corrupted so that new and additional messengers were needed? To me, the story of Solomon is just a slice of reality. And it provides a warning to the rest of us regarding the importance of truly being submissive. We should think that just because we have been chosen by God, that we are somehow so special that we don't have to pay attention to what he asks for us to do.

Solomon's story isn't pretty, nor are many of the other major Biblical figures, but they seem to be reflective of the human condition more than that which you would rather see us present when it comes to the prophets of Islam. And it is part of the reason I find the biblical narrative of their lives more credible than that we you offer in its place.

[Grace Seeker]

No it wasn't that. There was a discussion going on about a muslim who had the name of a prophet. The debate was about his faith, whether he was a muslim or a christian. And I heard one of them comment "Since when has Christianity had prophets ^o)"

I've always assumed so. That's why I was wondering...

Can't help with that, except to suggest that either there was some sort of disconnect in the conversation so that the speaker was responding to something different than had actually been said, or it might have been someone who simply isn't fully informed.

[Al-manar]

when we thought of people like Abraham, we had trouble naming any specific message that Abraham carried or delivered, other than the obvious fact that he was a carrier of the truth that there is just one God who is over all, and that local pagan dieties carved out of wood and stone and displayed above one hearth aren't really gods at all. And that essential message should never be diminished in importance. But, still, we couldn't think of any time where Abraham actually spoke forth as one who brought a message on God's behalf. In the Biblical account he is faithful, he is righteous, he is hospitable, he is compassionate, he leads his family, he even intercedes with God on behalf of his nephew Lot. But we do see him functioning as we generally think of a prophet functioning. Yet, we recognize that he is indeed termed a prophet in the text of the Bible itself. We just don't have any idea as to why..

May be the bible may not tell you why Abraham be a prophet ,but the quran gives enough information telling upon what basis he was called a prophet....

I'm glad that the Bible didn't whitewash all of the characters and present them to us as perfect ideals without flaws. .

Others not glad with that , and criticised the bible for that ...muslims and non muslims alike...

eg,

"The OT describes the hell of the past, and the New the hell of the future." Some Reasons Why, Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 2, p. 334.

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind...." The Age of Reason, T. Paine


"But when I see throughout the greatest part of this book, the Bible, scarcely anything but a history of the grossest vices, and a collection of the most paltry and contemptible tales, I cannot dishonor my Creator by calling it by his name." Ibid., p. 38.

-"With Voltaire, I say that any one who admires Ezekiel should be compelled to dine with him." Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 3, p. 482

I hate that story, too. And I agree that it reflects poorly on God as well. I have to confess that this is when it is important to realize that I am not a Biblical literalist and do not believe in a dictation theory with regard to the production of the biblical text. I tend to see the hand of the authors more than that of God in the projections that they put forth with regard to how God viewed these events.
. .

I can agree no more , and would add ,it is not a wonder that similar hands to those who viewed Noah as drunk ,establishing racism, would view the other prophets in a shameful manners as well.... if not why,not?

Solomon's story isn't pretty, nor are many of the other major Biblical figures, but they seem to be reflective of the human condition more than that which you would rather see us present when it comes to the prophets of Islam. And it is part of the reason I find the biblical narrative of their lives more credible than that we you offer in its place.

That is your logic , but don't forget the bible(as the word of God) has to be approached for goodness, decency, role models, and morality......

take a look at just a sample of those who criticised the bible for such issue (a non muslim by the way)...

Millions of people throughout the world, especially children, often adopt certain figures as role models to idolize and emulate. This is true not only in sports, politics, and acting, but also in religion and the arena of ideas. And nowhere in religion are role-models more numerous than in the Bible. From Genesis to Revelation, prominent individuals abound. But are they really worthy of respect and admiration? Was their behavior such that you would want to awaken your children on Sunday morning to read about their exploits? What better way to answer this question than by describing the activities of each. First are those figures whose machinations are somewhat limited in scope:

* ABSALOM--ordered killings (2 Sam. 13:28-29 RSV) and had sex in the open (2 Sam. 16:22 RSV);
* AMON--raped his sister, Tamar (2 Sam. 13:11-14 RSV);
*
* ABIMELECH--killed a city's inhabitants (Jud. 9:45 RSV); and murdered wantonly (Jud. 9:5);
* EHUD--murdered king Eglon (Jud. 3:21-22 RSV);
* ELIJAH--committed murder (1 Kings 18:40);
* ELISHA--lied (2 Kings 6:19), told a man a lie (2 Kings 8:10 RSV), cursed 42 small boys to be torn apart for mocking his bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24 RSV);
* GIDEON--killed (Jud. 8:16:17 the Living Bible), murdered prisoners (Jud. 8:21 RSV)
* ISSAC--lied (Gen. 26:6-7 and attempted to sacrifice his wife to save himself (Gen. 26:9);
* JACOB--swindled Esau out of his birthright (Gen. 25:31-33 RSV), cheated and lied (Gen. 27:19, 30:40-43 RSV) and lied to Rachel (Gen. 29:12);
* JEHOIDA--ordered a murder (2 Kings 11:15-16 RSV);
* JEHU--killed (Kings 9:24, 27, 10:11, 17), ordered killings (2 Kings 10:6-7, 14, 25 RSV), and deceptively lied (2 Kings 10:18-19);
* JEPHTHAH--slaughtered people (Jud. 11:33), and killed his own daughter (Jud. 11:39 RSV);
* JEREMIAH--lied (Jer. 38:24-27 NIV);
* JOAB--killed (2 Sam. 3:27, 18:14, 20:10);
* JONATHAN--killed (1 Sam. 14:13-14 NASB), and lied (1 Sam. 20:28);
* JOSEPH--deceived his brothers (Gen. 42:7 NASB) and committed nepotism (Gen. 47:11 RSV);
* JOSHUA--killed and slaughtered without letup (Joshua 6:21, 8:25-28, 10:1, 20, 26-28, 30, 32-33, 35, 37, 39-41, 17-18, 21, 12:7), murdered prisoners (Josh. 8:29), and hamstrung horses, (Josh. 11:9 RSV);
* LABAN--lied (Gen. 29:15) and deceived (Gen. 29:20-25);
* LOT--offered his virgin daughters to a crowd (Gen. 19:8);
* SAMSON--killed (Jud. 14:19, 15:8, 15), and had sex with a harlot (Jud. 16:1) and lied to Delilah (Jud. 16:10, 13), and
* SAMUEL--murdered (1 Sam. 15:33).

Second are those individuals who are not only well known but committed a wider assortment of nefarious activities:

* ABRAHAM--told his wife to lie (Gen. 12:13), debauched Hagar, his maidservant (Gen. 16:4), sent his maidservant and her child into the wilderness (Gen. 21:14), lied (Gen. 20:2), and married his half-sister (Gen. 20:11-12);
* SAUL--used his daughters as a snare (1 Sam. 8:20-21 NIV), ordered gambling (1 Sam. 14:42), killed (1 Sam. 15:7-8, 20, 22:18-21), stripped himself and acted unstable (1Sam. 19:24), admitted he sinned, played the fool and erred (1 Sam.26:21), gave David's wife to another man (1 Sam. 25:44), and transgressed God by consulting a medium and being unfaithful (1 Chron. 10:13-14 RSV),
* and SOLOMON--ordered murders (1 Kings 2:25 RSV, 2:34, 46), tried to kill Jeroboam (1 Kings 11:40), enslaved people (1 Kings 9:21 RSV), did not keep God's statutes or covenant (1 Kings 11:11 RSV), did evil (1 Kings 11:6), and lied to his mother (1 Kings 2:20-21 RSV, 2:25).

Lastly, are two famous or infamous individuals--Moses and David--who occupy special places among Old Testament leaders. According to 2 Chron. 30:16 Moses was the Man of God; yet, he...

* murdered an Egyptian (Ex. 2:12),
* ordered an armed attack (Num. 31:3, 6),
* ordered the murder of prisoners (Num. 31:17),
* ordered the keeping of young female prisoners for several reasons (Num. 31:17),
* led mass killings of women and children (Deut. 2:34, 3:3, 6),
* ordered killings (Deut. 13:15, 20:13),
* blasphemously wrote he was a greater prophet than Jesus (Deut. 34:10 NASB),
* had a son out of wedlock (Ex. 2:21-22),
* and was excluded by God from Canaan for four different reasons:
o unbelief (Num 20:12),
o rebellion (Num. 27:12-14 RSV),
o trespassing (Deut. 13:51-52),
o and rash words (Psalm 106:32-33 NIV).

And, finally, there is David. Despite all of the above, no individual in the Bible had a more disreputable, more scandalous career. Although the recipient of numerous accolades--never doing evil (1 Sam. 25:28), following God fully (1 Kings 11:6), being an angel of God(2 Sam. 19:27), keeping his commandments of God (1 Kings 3:14), and having a perfect heart with the Lord (1 Kings 15:3)--David exhibited exceptionally corrupt behavior.

* He killed (1 Sam. 17:50-51 RSV, 18:7, 27, 19:8, 23:5, 30:17, 2 Sam. 8:1, 2, 5, 13),
* ordered murders (2 Sam. 1:15, 4:5-12),
* ordered prisoners to be killed (2 Sam. 12:2931, 1 Chron. 20:3, 2 Sam. 8:1-2),
* committed unprovoked aggression and mass killing (1 Sam. 27:8-11, 2 Sam. 5:20, 25),
* gave up seven of Saul's descendants to be killed (2 Sam. 21:1-6, 9),
* requested that Joab be killed (1 Kings 2:5-6),
* intentionally arranged for Uriah to be killed in order to seize his wife (2 Sam. 11:14-17),
* displeased the Lord (2 Sam. 11:26-27),
* impregnated another man's wife, committing adultery in the process (2 Sam. 11:2-5),
* wasn't allowed to build God's house because he was a man of war and bloodshed (1 Chron. 22:7-8),
* lied (1 Sam. 21:1-2, 27:8-10),
* told Jonathan to lie (1 Sam. 20:5-6),
* admitted he sinned by taking a census (2 Sam. 24:10, 17, 1 Chron. 21: 8, 17)
* committed extortion (1 Sam. 25:2-8),
* prophesied incorrectly in his heart (1 Sam. 27:1),
* sent out a spy (2 Sam. 16:36),
* hamstrung horses (2 Sam. 8:4),
* locked up 10 concubines for life for no apparent reason (2 Sam. 20:3),
* committed bigamy (2 Sam. 3:2-3),
* despised the word of the Lord (2 Sam. 12: 9-11),
* admitted he sinned by causing Uriah's death and taking his wife (2 Sam. 12:13-14),
* and exposed himself like a pervert (2 Sam. 6:20).

Yet, despite all of this we are supposed to believe this is a man after God's own heart (Acts 13:22). Anyone approaching the Bible for goodness, decency, role models, and morality, enters at his own peril. .

[Grace Seeker]

I hope you realize that the Bible doesn't pretend that all those people are paragons of virtue. Some of them, like Abimelech, are even listed among the "bad" kings, certainly not as role models.

Others are role models with regard to certain aspects of their lives or faith, but the Bible doesn't pretend that automatically means they are to be followed in every aspect of their lives. And to suggest that one who can teach about one thing should therefore be able to teach about everything or they should even been used as an example about anything, might be how Islam views the world, but I still contend it isn't realistic. Donald Trump might be a good teacher with regard to business, but I wouldn't want to take cues on marital relationships from him.

Anyway, this thread isn't about which view your prefer, or which view Christians prefer (for most of us would prefer perfect heroes), pr even which view is better, but rather how the Bible actually does view the prophets. And, based upon your criticisms, I think you would have to agree that, like it or not, the Bible has elected to portray the prophets as fallen human beings, warts and all, rather than as some sort of spiritual supermodel whose airbrushed picture has all the blemishes removed.

[Al-manar]

might be how Islam views the world, but I still contend it isn't realistic.

that is not what Islam would view the bible ...but (with the exception of chritsians and Jews ) the whole world view, and my quotations proved that.....

Donald Trump might be a good teacher with regard to business, but I wouldn't want to take cues on marital relationships from him.

And Lot had experienced incest ,I wouldn't take his advice in sodomy as well....

etc.....

Had lot commited minor sin, I would still accept his advice in sodomy...

I think you would have to agree that, like it or not, the Bible has elected to portray the prophets as fallen human beings, warts and all

yes I agree ... though of the criticism....to be honest.... I don't think such point is of big importance in the arena of Bible criticism....
the bible has more serious problems than how it views the prophets



regards....

[Danah]

Thanks a lot for both of you, Al-Manar and Grace Seeker...your imputs were very helpful

Now what about the rest?

1. Jonah
2. Jacob
3. Isaac
4. Joseph
5. Daniel
6. Zechariah

[Grace Seeker]

Thanks a lot for both of you, Al-Manar and Grace Seeker...your imputs were very helpful

Now what about the rest?

1. Jonah
2. Jacob
3. Isaac
4. Joseph
5. Daniel
6. Zechariah

I wrote about Jonah in post #14 above.

Regarding Daniel:
Nothing is known of his family, but, he is thought to have been of noble descent. The reason for this is that he was carted off to captivity in Babylon, and the Babylonians didn't actually that the whole country into exile but primarily the rulers, leaders, and their families.

His story is found within the book by his name.

He was carried captive to Babylon during the reign of King Jehoiakim. He, and three companions, because of their special qualifications were selected to be trained for the king's service. They were given what was considered royal food to eat, but did not because it was not in accordance with their beliefs. Others in the royal court conspired against by having the king build a golden statue which all in the country were to bow down to knowing that the Jews would not. When they refused, they where to be thrown into a fiery furnance. But when they had done so, the looked in and saw the men in it walking around alive. One another occassion others conspired against Daneil by having the king pass an order that no one could ask a petition of any man or god other than the king. But Daniel refused to change is custom of praying daily to YHWH, and doing so in front of his window. So, of course, he was arrested and the consequence was being thrown to the lions. But two angels shut the lions' mouths and Daniel emerged the next day unharmed.

As a seer Daniel was able to interpret dreams that other's in the king's court could not. He served several kings during his lifetime. He was given visions beyond that of just immediate events, all the way to the consumation of the end of time and is particularly known as a prophet of the last days.

There are a number of similarities between the career of Daneil and Joseph:
--both were carried into captivity in their youth, were model young men, and because of their ability to interpret dreams found employment in a king's court.
--both were unjustly persecuted, but their hardships became stepping stones to honor.
--both lived pure lives in the midst of corrupt courts.
--both died in foreign lands, but still trusting in the promises of God for their people that they should return to the land God had given them.

[Danah]

I wrote about Jonah in post #14 above.

ops! I already read that post but forgot to remove the name from the list, sorry!


As for the others.....I wish you only give me the verses number so I will read them directly from the bible instead of typing the whole story here again. But thanks a lot anyways.

[Grace Seeker]

As for the others.....I wish you only give me the verses number so I will read them directly from the bible instead of typing the whole story here again. But thanks a lot anyways.

This is what I suggested at first, but thought that you didn't want that:

Danah, to answer this question properly would be to basically do a copy and paste job from the Bible to LI. I'll spare you that, but recommend that you simply read the Biblical texts.

imm..I would do that, but thought that I might find a quick answer here since I have so many things to do at the meantime.

But I do think you will do better to read for yourself. In this case, since you are basically wanting to read the prophets' narrative, you might do better to read from something like The Message Bible if you have access to it. It has a good prose style for that type of reading.


The story of Noah is found primarily Genesis 5:1 through Genesis 9:29.
Other pertinent verses related to Noah:

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Matthew 24:37-39
37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Luke 17:26-27
26"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

1 Peter 3:18-22
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

2 Peter 2:4-11
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.



The story of Abraham begins with his father's story in Genesis 11:26 and continues till his death in Genesis 25:11. Of course, it overlaps with his son Isaac's story along the way.

Given the importance of Abraham, it isn't surpising that he continues to be mentioned throughout the rest of the OT and is also one of the most frequent OT figures cited in the NT. So, I won't try to share all of those passages, but only the most important ones:

John 8:31-59
Romans 4:1-25
Galatians 3:6-29

Galatians 4:22-23
22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

Hebrews 11:8-19

James 2:21-24
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.



The story of Isaac begins with God's promise to Abraham that his wife Sarah would have a son in Genesis 17:15-16 and continues till his death is recorded in Genesis 35:29 (though after Jacob gets Isaac's blessing in chapter 28 it is really more Jacob's story than Isaac's story).

Other passages of note include:
Galatians 4:28-29
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.
(This is understood to speak of the incorporation of Gentiles into the Church by the Holy Spirit on equal footing with the Jews and the need not to have to live by the laws of the Jews to be part of the Church.)

Hebrews 11:9 & 17-20


The story of Jacob begins even before he is born in Genesis 25:21. Probably the key point in his life is found in Genesis 35:10 when God changes Jacob's name to Israel. And in chapter 37, though Jacob still lives it really becomes the story of his son Joseph. Jacob's death is recorded in Genesis 49:33.

You might really be interested in all of Genesis 49, because it seems to be the best record of any prophecy that Jacob might be said to have given.

Another interesting passage is Numbers 24:15-19 in which Jacob (or his family line anyway) is the subject of Balaam's prophecy.

Stephen's sermon in Acts 7 also does a good job of summarizing Jacob's life.

And, as with all the other patriarchs, Jacob is also mentioned in Hebrews 11.




In addition to the above passages, an important summary of the lives of all three patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is Joshua 24:2-4
2 Joshua said to all the people, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Long ago your forefathers, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the River [a] and worshiped other gods. 3 But I took your father Abraham from the land beyond the River and led him throughout Canaan and gave him many descendants. I gave him Isaac, 4 and to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. I assigned the hill country of Seir to Esau, but Jacob and his sons went down to Egypt.



The story of Joseph begins with his birth in Genesis 30:23. But it is Genesis 37:3 that sets up the events in Joseph's life, for "Israel loved Joseph more than any of his other sons" and they were jealous. The consequences of that jealousy in Joseph's life and how Joseph responded is the subject of the rest of Genesis through his death in its last verse, Genesis 50:26.

Like Jacob, Joseph's story is also summarized in Acts 7 and he is included in the list of OT saints in Hebrews 11.



The story of David is more scattered, appearing in many books.

David's geneology is given in Ruth 4, though he is not actually born during the events recorded in the book of Ruth.

We are first introduced to David as a young boy tending his father's sheep in 1 Samuel 16. 1 Samuel 17 tells the story of David killing Goliath, but more importantly in it we see David's great faith in God. David's story occupies the rest of 1 Samuel and also 2 Samuel. His death is recorded in 1 Kings 2:10. But 1 Chronicles repeats much of and adds some to that of David's story. Personally, I find the narrative in 1 Chronicles to be harder to read (probably because I'm not found of the interpretation of events that the author provides with his narrative, but I guess that's my problem unless you also choose to make it yours).

David is also credited with writing many of the Psalms: #3-9, 11-32, 34-41. 51-65, 68-70, 72, 86, 101, 103, 108-110, 122, 124, 131-133, and 139-145.

Of these Jesus quotes a portion of Psalm 110 in Matthew 22:44 (see also Mark 12:36 and Luke 20:42) and then Peter also refers to David and quotes the same passage in his Pentecost sermon found in Acts 2.

Paul refers to David and quotes him in Romans 4:6 and Romans 11:9. And the author of Hebrews not only includes David in his list of OT saints in Hebrews 11, but in Hebrews 4 he also quotes from Pslam 95 and credits the words to David.

Perhaps the most famous use of a Pslam of David is Jesus' quoting of the opening line of Psalm 22, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" --a psalm that, despite its opening line, is a declaration of the pslamist's confidence in God's abiding presence in the midst of all manner of trial. While it may have been expressive of David's own experience, I can also see it as one that anticipates Christ's own death and steadfast confidence in God who "has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help" (Ps. 22:24).



The story of Jonah is almost exclusively found in the book of the same name. There is one mention of him in the story of King Jeroboam II as found in 2 Kings 14. All other references to Jonah are found in the NT:

Matthew 12:39-41
He [Jesus] answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

Luke 11:29-32
29As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. 32The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.



The story of Daniel is best found in the book of Daniel.

The apocalyptic message of the book is referred to once in the NT:
Matthew 24:14-16
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


As with regards Zechariah, there are several Zechariahs mentioned in the scriptures. Again, his book would be the first source for information about him. If you are wanting information about one of the other Zechariahs, then you best bet is to do a concordance search for him. Here is a link to BibleGateway.com that will take you to 57 different places that at least one of the Zechariahs is mentioned in the Bible.


I doubt if this answers all of your questions. But we don't have detailed information on every biblical figure. Often they arrive on the scene, do their thing, and disappear never to be heard from or even referred to again.

[Danah]

^ then it seems that both of us misunderstood each other. I meant that I wanted someone to tell me the verses and what was mentioned about them, I thought that you wanted me to look for their stories in the bible which I found a bit hard as there are many chapters to go through. On the othet hand, you thought that I wanted to know the summary about their life so you did it in your own words, I am sorry if I was not clear from the beginning....but even though your previous posts were benefecial too and you didn't waste your time on nothing, thanks for that.


I will reply to the above post if I have any questions after getting back to my laptop and read it again inshaAllah. Thanks.

[Grace Seeker]

Danah, it may be that the book you are already reading (if written by a Biblical scholar) is going to be the best source of information for finding everything in a nutshell, because you're exactly right, getting it from the Bible is going to be like reading the entire Old Testament.

Let me give you a couple of other sources:

a Google Answers post that might give you a feel for when the different prophets were involved in their respective ministries.

All The Men of the Bible, by Herbert Lockyear. Lockyear has written a series of "All the _____ of the Bible". I don't own "All the Men...", but I do own "All the Women..." It has short biographies about the different women: 4 pages on Eve, 5 pages on Sarah, 4 pages on Hagar, 6 pages on talk about Mary, and for others just a few sentences depending on their relative importance in the Biblical story.

Another source for you might be Eerdmans Handbook to the Bible which provides summaries of each chapter of the Bible and expands on individual verses only where necessary to communicate information that would not be generally known. Thus it condenses the 50 chapters of Genesis down to less than 25 pages, which would be enough to tell you about 5 of the prophets you've asked about, and direct you to what specific verses to read in the Bible if you wanted to go deeper on any given part of their story. Jonah is discussed in 1 page, Zechariah in 3, people like Daniel and David would still take a little more effort to get their whole story. There are also articles on understanding the prophets in their own setting. And presentations on understanding the role of different types of biblical material. When you got done reading all of that, you would still have a good reference book for lots of further questions. It is one of the first reference books I ever bought. I don't use it so much any more as a pastor, but at the lay level, I still consider it excellent.

[Danah]

Danah, it may be that the book you are already reading (if written by a Biblical scholar) is going to be the best source of information for finding everything in a nutshell, because you're exactly right, getting it from the Bible is going to be like reading the entire Old Testament.

Let me give you a couple of other sources:

The e-book I am reading is written by a Biblical scholar I guess, but they don't include much about prophets. Very summarized version that's why I wanted to know more.

Thanks for the other sources and for the above quotes from the Bible

[freethinking]

The e-book I am reading is written by a Biblical scholar I guess, but they don't include much about prophets. Very summarized version that's why I wanted to know more.

Thanks for the other sources and for the above quotes from the Bible

Hi,
may I humbly suggest trying this link: http://www.biblegateway.com/ for details of individuals in the Bible, it has a keyword search as well as passage checkers and if you type a name into the keysearch it will take you to all references of this person. You can also view by any version of the Bible ( except the Jehova's witnesses one!) from the old King James version to the NI version
I hope it helps you it is the Bible online!

Bless you

[aadil77]

Do you know how the bible views Prophet Lut?

And the elder said to the younger Our father is old, and there is no man left on the earth, to come in unto us after the manner of the whole earth. Come, let us make him drunk with wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the elder went in and lay with her father: but he perceived not neither when his daughter lay down, nor when she rose up. And the next day the elder said to the younger: Behold I lay last night with my father, let us make him drink wine also to night, and thou shalt lie with him, that we may save seed of our father. They made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in, and lay with him: and neither then did he perceive when she lay down, nor when she rose up. So the two daughters of Lot were with child by their father. [Genesis 19:31-36]

they think he commited incest with his daughters

La hawla wala kuwata

[Grace Seeker]

Do you know how the bible views Prophet Lut?

they think he commited incest with his daughters

Yes, I knew that.

And, also, I don't know that the Bible views Lot as a prophet (though I may just be uninformed with regard to that).

[جوري]

Do you know how the bible views Prophet Lut?

And the elder said to the younger Our father is old, and there is no man left on the earth, to come in unto us after the manner of the whole earth. Come, let us make him drunk with wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the elder went in and lay with her father: but he perceived not neither when his daughter lay down, nor when she rose up. And the next day the elder said to the younger: Behold I lay last night with my father, let us make him drink wine also to night, and thou shalt lie with him, that we may save seed of our father. They made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in, and lay with him: and neither then did he perceive when she lay down, nor when she rose up. So the two daughters of Lot were with child by their father. [Genesis 19:31-36]

they think he commited incest with his daughters

La hawla wala kuwata

Christians embrace incest and drunkenness especially as committed by messengers surely it is the needed carte Blanche to justify bad behavior of lay people!

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

Christians embrace incest and drunkenness especially as committed by messengers surely it is the needed carte Blanche to justify bad behavior of lay people!

:w:

There is a difference in admitting that someone has sinned, and embracing that sin. Neither incest nor drunkness is condoned in Christianity: see Paul's command to expell the immoral brother who is guilty of incestous behavior in 1 Corinthians 5:13 and his commands against drunkennes in Romans 13:13.

[جوري]

There is a difference in admitting that someone has sinned, and embracing that sin. Neither incest nor drunkness is condoned in Christianity: see Paul's command to expell the immoral brother who is guilty of incestous behavior in 1 Corinthians 5:13 and his commands against drunkennes in Romans 13:13.

God can't pick a messenger who can't abstain from sins of the flesh when he has sent this specific messenger to warn folks about sins of the flesh, but God thinks that his Nemesis saul can do a better job conveying the message after his death..

got you!

[Grace Seeker]

God can't pick a messenger who can't abstain from sins of the flesh when he has sent this specific messenger to warn folks about sins of the flesh, but God thinks that his Nemesis saul can do a better job conveying the message after his death..

got you!

The thread is about the Bible view of prophets. And in the Bible the prophets are viewed as humans. God calls them. God uses them. And on the whole they are largely righteous people who mostly do righteous things. But that doesn't make them any less flawed that the rest of us. And they are certainly not exclusively righteous. Just as all other human beings have sinned; so too, according to the Bible view, the prophets are also capable of sinning. In some cases, those sins are reported. But whether the details are reported or not, the Biblical view is that all persons (prophets included, and only Jesus excepted) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Still, all humans, despite their sinfulness, are also capable of being redeemed and used by God. Even unredeemed people can be used by God for God's purposes. The idea that one must be sinless to be a messenger of God may be a part of Islam, but it is foreign to the Bible.

[جوري]

The thread is about the Bible view of prophets. And in the Bible the prophets are viewed as humans. God calls them. God uses them. And on the whole they are largely righteous people who mostly do righteous things. But that doesn't make them any less flawed that the rest of us. And they are certainly not exclusively righteous. Just as all other human beings have sinned; so too, according to the Bible view, the prophets are also capable of sinning. In some cases, those sins are reported. But whether the details are reported or not, the Biblical view is that all persons (prophets included, and only Jesus excepted) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Still, all humans, despite their sinfulness, are also capable of being redeemed and used by God. Even unredeemed people can be used by God for God's purposes. The idea that one must be sinless to be a messenger of God may be a part of Islam, but it is foreign to the Bible.

being human is one thing committing cardinal sin is another, not every human commits a cardinal sin and certainly a human chosen for a specific task which is to warn against cardinal sins should be exceptionally mindful of that.. according to some of your biblical scholars jesus committed adultery three times and we have covered that before.. now, not only did Jesus who per you is 'god' choose the worst of people to warn against the worst of crime but to redeem himself this god came to a charlatan like saul to make things aright.. that is a conundrum to anyone with half a brain cell!

all the best

[Ramadhan]

I have met so many humans who never committed cardinal sins, including my own mother.

According to bible, God chose a prophet to commit the most grievous sin (incest sex with his own daughters).

That is a sure sign that the bible has been corrupted, thanks to those scribes and rabbis.

And then christians here (ir. Grace Seeker) rejected that Lot pbuh was a prophet, because even he does not think that kind of behaviour befit a prophet.

Nice.

[جوري]

I have met so many humans who never committed cardinal sins, including my own mother.

According to bible, God chose a prophet to commit the most grievous sin (incest sex with his own daughters).

That is a sure sign that the bible has been corrupted, thanks to those scribes and rabbis.

And then christians here (ir. Grace Seeker) rejected that Lot pbuh was a prophet, because even he does not think that kind of behaviour befit a prophet.

Nice.

lol.. no Christians think incest and drunkenness is just 'being human'

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

I have met so many humans who never committed cardinal sins, including my own mother.

According to bible, God chose a prophet to commit the most grievous sin (incest sex with his own daughters).

That is a sure sign that the bible has been corrupted, thanks to those scribes and rabbis.

And then christians here (ir. Grace Seeker) rejected that Lot pbuh was a prophet, because even he does not think that kind of behaviour befit a prophet.

Nice.

No, I reject that Lot is a prophet because I find where the Bible says he was a prophet nor do I see him sent with a message. His behavior has nothing to do with it.

And since, the Bible doesn't consider Lot a prophet, it is also incorrect to say, as you did, "According to bible, God chose a prophet to commit the most grievous sin (incest sex with his own daughters)."


Now, beyond your and Skye's attempts at being rude and argumentative, I am wondering if either of you have anything constructive to contribute to the thread that might actually be of benefit to Danah?

[جوري]

No, I reject that Lot is a prophet because I find where the Bible says he was a prophet nor do I see him sent with a message. His behavior has nothing to do with it.

And since, the Bible doesn't consider Lot a prophet, it is also incorrect to say, as you did, "According to bible, God chose a prophet to commit the most grievous sin (incest sex with his own daughters)."


Now, beyond your and Skye's attempts at being rude and argumentative, I am wondering if either of you have anything constructive to contribute to the thread that might actually be of benefit to Danah?

I thought I was being very constructive in highlighting what lies in your bible.. just because you don't like the expose doesn't mean either of us is either being rude, argumentative or non-constructive.. certainly if you don't like what is written in your good book, surely you can convene and see what can be rectified, taken out, or added in!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

I thought I was being very constructive

Which, if true, is all the sadder, for you appear to be aware of your own actions.

Did you also think adding, "certainly if you don't like what is written in your good book, surely you can convene and see what can be rectified, taken out, or added in!" was being constructive? Or weren't you, in fact, just being a smart-alec -- a pathetic attempt at being supposedly witty?

[جوري]

Which, if true, is all the sadder, for you appear to be aware of your own actions.

Did you also think adding, "certainly if you don't like what is written in your good book, surely you can convene and see what can be rectified, taken out, or added in!" was being constructive? Or weren't you, in fact, just being a smart-alec -- a pathetic attempt at being supposedly witty?

I thought I was being refreshingly honest.. another council of Nicaea type convention where you decide that a man is a god, and that well this time around it doesn't look so good for god's credibility to send a man to sodomites who at the same time gets drunk and sleeps with his daughters!

all the best

[freethinking]

I am interested to know what is a cardinal sin, any breaching of the 10 commandments is a sin all of the same degree of seriousness, also some things which people think are minor sins such as lying or "bending the truth are roght up there with murder and adultery. Sin is sin there are no shades within.
The only sin the Bible teches in unforgivable is to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost.

Every human has sinned most have broken several of the commandments, for example looking at another person to whom you are not married is a sin.
Harsh words of judgement is s sin.

No human is without sin and Include Muhammed PBUP In that with the greatest of respect

Peace and goodwill to all

[جوري]

There are indeed gradations of sin as per Islam.. there are also forms of shirk, there is shirk asghar, and shirk akbar etc. these are matters of jurisprudence and tenets of a different religion.
Someone for instance who worships Jesus is a sinner but his sin is greater than someone who uses a blue talisman to ward off evil. both are forms of shirk but associating a man with God is greater than out of ignorance using some blue stone to ward off evil.

Prophets don't sin, they make mistakes a sin and a mistake are different look them up.. I know whenever a thing in the bible happens that you can't defend you like to include Islam or the Quran so we'd all be equal. Well that isn't the way it works out. The religion of God and the people God chose though are human don't commit the sins regular lay people make, else why be chosen?

all the best

[Supreme]

But Gossamer, by claiming prophets don't sin is giving them a dangerous God like quality. To not sin would make one good, and only God is good.

[جوري]

But Gossamer, by claiming prophets don't sin is giving them a dangerous God like quality. To not sin would make one good, and only God is good.

Not at all, making mistakes is human and expected, sinning is something we can all help especially when chosen for the task of leading by example (apparently except for Christians)

all the best

[Supreme]

Not at all, making mistakes is human and expected, sinning is something we can all help especially when chosen for the task of leading by example (apparently except for Christians)

all the best

OK, so when does a mistake become a sin? Forgetting to pray? Breaking the law? Murdering? What can distinguish, in your eyes, between a mistake and a sin?

[جوري]

OK, so when does a mistake become a sin? Forgetting to pray? Breaking the law? Murdering? What can distinguish, in your eyes, between a mistake and a sin?

It isn't my 'eye's view' and yes you need to be studied on the matter as it so happens tons of Muslims commit sins every day seemingly unaware for precisely said reason they are unlearned in their religion. Not praying isn't merely a sin it is what separates the kaffir from a Muslim.. a Muslim who doesn't pray is not merely a mushrik he is in fact committing kufr!

all the best

[Supreme]

It isn't my 'eye's view' and yes you need to be studied on the matter as it so happens tons of Muslims commit sins every day seemingly unaware for precisely said reason they are unlearned in their religion. Not praying isn't merely a sin it is what separates the kaffir from a Muslim.. a Muslim who doesn't pray is not merely a mushrik he is in fact committing kufr!

all the best

That last sentence is an oxymoron. I am not studied on the matter, so educate me, what is the difference between a mistake and a sin?

[جوري]

That last sentence is an oxymoron. I am not studied on the matter, so educate me, what is the difference between a mistake and a sin?

mistake: action attributable to bad judgment like when the prophet (PBUH) told the people not to do certain things to their crops and the crops withered, to which he later admitted his mistake and told them they know best of their agriculture. Sin= Estrangement from god by breaking his commandments for instance being sent to warn against lewd sins of the flesh while getting some lewd sins of the flesh on the side!

all the best

[Predator]

If such are the priests, God bless the congregation
　
a) And he (Noah) drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he lay
NAKED within his tent." GENESIS 9:21
　
　
(b) "And he (Saul) stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied
before Samuel in like manner, and lay down NAKED all that
day and all that night, Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among
the prophets?" 1 SAMUEL 19:24
　
　
(c) "How glorious was the king of Israel (David) to day, who
UNCOVERED (became naked) himself to day in the eyes of the
handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows
shamelessly UNCOVERETH himself!" 2 SAMUEL 6:20
　
　
d) And David sent messengers, and took her (Bathsheba); and
she came in unto him, and he LAY (had intercourse) with her . .
." 2 SAMUEL 11:4
　
　
(e) "And the Lord said, like as my servant Isaiah hath walked
NAKED and barefoot three years . .
　
f)That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their
father Lot) wine to drink, and the older daughter had
INTERCOURSE with him ...
"The next day the older daughter said to her sister, l slept with
him last night: now let's get him drunk again tonight, and you
sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father.
"So that night they got him drunk, and the younger daughter
had INTERCOURSE with him ...
"In this way both of Lot's daughters became PREGNANT by
their father.

GENESIS 19:33-35

[Grace Seeker]

[I]If such are the priests, God bless the congregation

Yes, indeed. And we thank him for such blessings.

How good it is to know, that even as God does indeed call us to perfection, that he does not depend on it. Rather, God is so great as to redeem even our imperfectness and still use us for his purposes and glory. That he has proved himself able to take some of the worlds worst sinners and do his good will with and through them reminds me that despite my failings God might still be able to make use of this broken vessel if I will just allow myself to be malleable to the work of his hands on my life. How great is our God!!

Thank-you, Airforce, for this reminder.