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Thinker
03-18-2010, 08:14 PM
I have formed the view that Islam is frightened of scrutiny and worried that Muslims will waiver if exposed to anyone or anything that causes them to question.

I joined this site some time back to learn about Islam and to try and understand Muslims. I started knowing nothing and with no preconceptions. I have read and researched the subject extensively. No I haven’t read everything; yes, I am reading translated text; all that and context and interpretation but at the end of the day the volume of material leads me to some undeniable conclusions.

I stopped posting here sometime back because the constant bullying was draining. The bullying takes the form of deleted posts and unfair infractions designed (I believe) to drive away or suppress anyone who questions the doctrine. In many ways this forum is a reflection of the fear built into Islam. . . . . . Do not associate with the kufar, don’t live amongst them, don’t be friends with them, don’t even look like them. You are taught that this is because if you get near them you will become bad like them. I believe the reason is because Muhammed and your Imams fear the possibility of you being exposed to question. Proof of that is the suppression of people like me who would pose those questions – those questions are deleted for fear they may cause you to question.

It seems to me that there are two types of Muslim in the west. Those who have studied Islam and those who have not;
Those who have studied are in a quandary, they know that, by sheer weight, the volume of text demands that they not live amongst the kufar and although they cling on to some skewed interpretation or other that it’s really OK, they know it is not OK and they try to make amends for that sin by over egging on other easier stuff like growing the beard and wearing the clothes and shouting loudly about how much they love Islam and the rightness of killing anyone who says anything nasty about Muhammad.
Those who have not studied live in a warm foggy reality accepting what they are told and comforted in the thought that they are the chosen ones and only they will go to heaven.

I can remember a time when we all feared communism and communists. Looking back it was clearly ridiculous as communism was clearly unsustainable in the long term. Will the same fate befall Islam. As more and more non Muslims ask questions will more and more Muslims ask questions. Does Islam know that the only answer is a total world caliphate that can suppress any form of question? Did communism understand that was their only salvation?

And one more quandary, delete the post and you prove my point.
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جوري
03-18-2010, 08:19 PM
yes Islam is frightened of you oh one man crusader!

all the best
Reply

جوري
03-18-2010, 08:22 PM
Islam must be scared of me too considering the sheer volume of posts deleted, the amount of bullying I have received from non-Muslims by PM, the negatives received and my list of infractions for things as pathetic as posting in the wrong section.. pls allow me to post them here for all to see:

Evolution Test! 02-24-2010
04:48 PM

Inappropriate Language
Knox Case 12-06-2009
12:30 AM

Posted in the wrong forum

01-19-2008
11:45 AM Never 15 Beef will not be tolerated in any forum. Differences in opinion are expected, but please debate respectfully. (Beef are comments made for the purpose of insulting somebody else with negative intent, looking for a negative reaction, or blatantly insulting
Reply

-Fallen Angel-
03-18-2010, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I have formed the view that Islam is frightened of scrutiny and worried that Muslims will waiver if exposed to anyone or anything that causes them to question.

I joined this site some time back to learn about Islam and to try and understand Muslims. I started knowing nothing and with no preconceptions. I have read and researched the subject extensively. No I haven’t read everything; yes, I am reading translated text; all that and context and interpretation but at the end of the day the volume of material leads me to some undeniable conclusions.

I stopped posting here sometime back because the constant bullying was draining. The bullying takes the form of deleted posts and unfair infractions designed (I believe) to drive away or suppress anyone who questions the doctrine. In many ways this forum is a reflection of the fear built into Islam. . . . . . Do not associate with the kufar, don’t live amongst them, don’t be friends with them, don’t even look like them. You are taught that this is because if you get near them you will become bad like them. I believe the reason is because Muhammed and your Imams fear the possibility of you being exposed to question. Proof of that is the suppression of people like me who would pose those questions – those questions are deleted for fear they may cause you to question.

It seems to me that there are two types of Muslim in the west. Those who have studied Islam and those who have not;
Those who have studied are in a quandary, they know that, by sheer weight, the volume of text demands that they not live amongst the kufar and although they cling on to some skewed interpretation or other that it’s really OK, they know it is not OK and they try to make amends for that sin by over egging on other easier stuff like growing the beard and wearing the clothes and shouting loudly about how much they love Islam and the rightness of killing anyone who says anything nasty about Muhammad.
Those who have not studied live in a warm foggy reality accepting what they are told and comforted in the thought that they are the chosen ones and only they will go to heaven.

I can remember a time when we all feared communism and communists. Looking back it was clearly ridiculous as communism was clearly unsustainable in the long term. Will the same fate befall Islam. As more and more non Muslims ask questions will more and more Muslims ask questions. Does Islam know that the only answer is a total world caliphate that can suppress any form of question? Did communism understand that was their only salvation?

And one more quandary, delete the post and you prove my point.
There is a lot more to it than that, obviously one who was willing understand would be able to (understand).
I would think that if you have been studying for so long, you would have understood by now, especially spending time here on IB, reading other peoples stories and them sharing thoughts and exchanging information etc.
I'll give you an example. I myself am Muslim, but i don't believe that if i kill somebody who talks bad about our prophet (such as that cartoonist) would get be accepted by Allah, at the end of the day it's his decision if i have been a "good" Muslim or not. As far as i know, Islam is not afraid of these "questions" you mention, you would understand that with the vast amount of recources and information avalible to people in this day and age, they would realise and become "liberated" and question Islam (putting it in your prespective) but i think people understand it all, and from my experiance, the more i know, the more i see the truth in Islam.
You reserve the right to believe what you will, but like everyone says the west has some anti-Islamic views and tries to show it as a "cult" and such.
I suggest that you do some more learn some more about Islam, and get to know some real muslims to understand how we feel.

Have a nice day
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aadil77
03-18-2010, 08:33 PM
No I think the problem with you was that you'd always have irritating assumptions in your posts, you'd never genuinely question, you'd attack first with incorrect assumptions then pretend to show interest through questions
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Cabdullahi
03-18-2010, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Beef will not be tolerated in any forum. Differences in opinion are expected, but please debate respectfully. (Beef are comments made for the purpose of insulting somebody else with negative intent, looking for a negative reaction, or blatantly insulting
BEEF? ;D

the person who wrote that must have been a vegetarian
Reply

-Fallen Angel-
03-18-2010, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
No I think the problem with you was that you'd always have irritating assumptions in your posts, you'd never genuinely question, you'd attack first with incorrect assumptions then pretend to show interest through questions
Well brother, he does like to question things :p
Reply

Supreme
03-18-2010, 08:55 PM
Well, as a non Muslim, I honestly don't think I have been 'bullied' at all on this forum. Aside from my single infraction for literally posting **** in literally stars and not even inferring a word (bad language? seriously?), I don't think I've been bullied. Besides, it's an online forum full of strangers. Who actually cares?
Reply

Supreme
03-18-2010, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by Abdullahii
BEEF? ;D

the person who wrote that must have been a vegetarian
...no, it's a slang term for trying to pick a fight.
Reply

Skavau
03-18-2010, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I have formed the view that Islam is frightened of scrutiny and worried that Muslims will waiver if exposed to anyone or anything that causes them to question.
I hold the perspective that certain Muslims or certain interpretations of Islam can be frightened, or hostile to criticism. A quick glance of this forum will certainly tell you that a lot of Muslims are hostile certainly to mockery, and of course being far more practised, observed and taken more seriously than modern day Christianity now - that is no specific surprise.

The reason many Muslims hold criticism to Islam to be offensive, or respond with hostility is because they hold the belief that it is foundationally immoral to question Allah. They project an obedience vs. disobedience ethical framework.

I stopped posting here sometime back because the constant bullying was draining. The bullying takes the form of deleted posts and unfair infractions designed (I believe) to drive away or suppress anyone who questions the doctrine.
I have made many specific comments about Islam and I have only recieved private messages (none since my return) on being off-topic, or engaging in some petty bickering with specific members.

So I don't know what you did...
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- Qatada -
03-18-2010, 09:04 PM
To remove Thinker's doubt, Muslims are permitted to live in non muslim lands without intent to 'take over the country'.


My proof?

During the life of Prophet Muhammad, he encouraged his companions to make Hijrah/Emigration to Ethiopia [Abysinnia.]

They lived in peace there, and as a minority
, so that they could preach and practise their religion [something which Ethiopia and UK allow]. They never took over the country, and were at peace with the people there.
Reply

Chuck
03-18-2010, 09:06 PM
The OP is hilarious, I'm laughing. It was a joke right?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-18-2010, 09:16 PM
Are you for real? So0o you're gunna blame all this on Islam cause you got some infractions and deleted posts? Trust me, we've all been there done that....still there and doing that lol...

Now I'm wonderin what you did.

At the end of the day, we're humans. They delete if they think its appropriate to do so and its not likely it's right every time :skeleton:
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MuslimAgorist
03-18-2010, 09:16 PM
Thinker, I haven't ever seen your posts or your questions because I'm new here. But as a convert who entered this religion full of questions and skepticism I absolutely agree with you. Dogmatic thinkers always fear critical thinkers, which means to me that deep down they probably don't really believe their own dogma. I don't think this was the case with the Prophet himself, but history is a kind mirage that get's further away the more you try to approach it. I also don't agree with your conclusions, or fit into your categories. But I absolutely agree with your methodology and I think it's sad that even in a forum so modern as the internet, primate intellectual bullying is still the order of the day. You have my empathy.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-18-2010, 09:17 PM
Seriously, come on now. It's a forum.
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MuslimAgorist
03-18-2010, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Seriously, come on now. It's a forum.
Anonymity does not justify inhumanity.
Reply

Alpha Dude
03-18-2010, 09:28 PM
We have had several non-muslims over the years making critical of Islam, yet constructive posts. I don't believe they would claim they've been bullied by moderators.

The problem Thinker has is his attitude and approach. He has been offensive and despite what he says, does carry preconcieved notions of Islam and muslims upon which he conducts his discussions and tends to read into muslim replies only what he seeks to find to justify his beliefs.

While mods are not perfect, on the whole, they do not delete or edit posts or punish members undeservedly. Some rule or the other must have been contravened.

There is no unfairness against non-muslims either, as sister Skye's post demonstrates.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
03-18-2010, 09:29 PM
Anonymity does not justify inhumanity.
Half the stuff he said isn't even right. so i cant even agree with that. he went from getting posts deleted and infractions to blaming it on Islam

Seriously? That's ridiculous. And I'm sure no1 disagrees with what you said, not even me. But that statement doesn't even fit here.

We've been here long enough to know him so i dont have much sympathy for what he wrote. A lot of it is generalizing.

As for Islam being afraid of anyone. LOL no...
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aamirsaab
03-18-2010, 09:31 PM
:sl:
Dude, Islam isn't frightened of you. Quit stroking your ego.

There's a fine line between being a critical analyst and a troll. Most critics of Islam that I have encountered on the net (youtube, facebook, you name it) fall under troll category. I can count the amount of real analysts on one hand and even they aren't that good (because they know jack about Islam but act like scholars).
Reply

Güven
03-18-2010, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker

I stopped posting here sometime back because the constant bullying was draining. The bullying takes the form of deleted posts and unfair infractions designed (I believe) to drive away or suppress anyone who questions the doctrine.
Ahh, then I must have been bullied more than you, since I got 2 pages full of infractions and tons of posts deleted. Well ok, it was mainly because of my Off-topics/Spam but to tell you the truth, I don't really care.

The thing is, the mentality you (most of the time) have is "I am right, you are wrong." that's why you feel attacked everytime we dismiss your views. Ofcourse you can question whatever you want, this is a forum after all. What we don't tolerate is attacks and disrespect.
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جوري
03-18-2010, 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
We have had several non-muslims over the years making critical of Islam, yet constructive posts. I don't believe they would claim they've been bullied by moderators.

The problem Thinker has is his attitude and approach. He has been offensive and despite what he says, does carry preconcieved notions of Islam and muslims upon which he conducts his discussions and tends to read into muslim replies only what he seeks to find to justify his beliefs.

While mods are not perfect, on the whole, they do not delete or edit posts or punish members undeservedly. Some rule or the other must have been contravened.

There is no unfairness against non-muslims either, as sister Skye's post demonstrates.
I agree with that.. there is a difference between posing a questions as such.

1- Why is Islam misogynistic as opposed to is Islam misogynistic?.. I mean if you have already made up your mind then what is the point for discussion. You are only setting out to prove your own points through manipulation and intellectual dishonesty and then come cry about it later..

When I was really young in school, I always thought I knew everything. I'd argue with the teachers because I spent much of my time studying on the side.. then one day ms. Muhra asked me (this was in KSA) if I knew everything why did I needed to attend class? She was really a lovely teacher I loved her very much and I changed my attitude afterward to maybe every subject is familiar since the knowledge of the world is in us, but we need to refine it by seeking knowledge not assuming that we already have it.

I have had many admins write angry words to me and threaten bans, why did I not cry about it publicly? furthermore I'd no desire to share my infractions publicly but certainly no member is exempt and hence I shared it so pls. spare me the clangorous need for public humbug.. or perhaps this too should be classified under bullying?

:w:
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aadil77
03-18-2010, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
We have had several non-muslims over the years making critical of Islam, yet constructive posts. I don't believe they would claim they've been bullied by moderators.

The problem Thinker has is his attitude and approach. He has been offensive and despite what he says, does carry preconcieved notions of Islam and muslims upon which he conducts his discussions and tends to read into muslim replies only what he seeks to find to justify his beliefs.

While mods are not perfect, on the whole, they do not delete or edit posts or punish members undeservedly. Some rule or the other must have been contravened.

There is no unfairness against non-muslims either, as sister Skye's post demonstrates.
^That basically somes up thinkers attitude

He'd come on here with all his preconceptions and all he wanted to do was enforce those on us.

His 'questions' would start with a paragraph of totally biased preconceptions then at the end he'd 'ask' us all if we agreed with his view, this wasn't just once or twice which is why it took the mick
Reply

FAISAL85
03-18-2010, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I have formed the view that Islam is frightened of scrutiny and worried that Muslims will waiver if exposed to anyone or anything that causes them to question.

I joined this site some time back to learn about Islam and to try and understand Muslims. I started knowing nothing and with no preconceptions. I have read and researched the subject extensively. No I haven’t read everything; yes, I am reading translated text; all that and context and interpretation but at the end of the day the volume of material leads me to some undeniable conclusions.

I stopped posting here sometime back because the constant bullying was draining. The bullying takes the form of deleted posts and unfair infractions designed (I believe) to drive away or suppress anyone who questions the doctrine. In many ways this forum is a reflection of the fear built into Islam. . . . . . Do not associate with the kufar, don’t live amongst them, don’t be friends with them, don’t even look like them. You are taught that this is because if you get near them you will become bad like them. I believe the reason is because Muhammed and your Imams fear the possibility of you being exposed to question. Proof of that is the suppression of people like me who would pose those questions – those questions are deleted for fear they may cause you to question.

It seems to me that there are two types of Muslim in the west. Those who have studied Islam and those who have not;
Those who have studied are in a quandary, they know that, by sheer weight, the volume of text demands that they not live amongst the kufar and although they cling on to some skewed interpretation or other that it’s really OK, they know it is not OK and they try to make amends for that sin by over egging on other easier stuff like growing the beard and wearing the clothes and shouting loudly about how much they love Islam and the rightness of killing anyone who says anything nasty about Muhammad.
Those who have not studied live in a warm foggy reality accepting what they are told and comforted in the thought that they are the chosen ones and only they will go to heaven.

I can remember a time when we all feared communism and communists. Looking back it was clearly ridiculous as communism was clearly unsustainable in the long term. Will the same fate befall Islam. As more and more non Muslims ask questions will more and more Muslims ask questions. Does Islam know that the only answer is a total world caliphate that can suppress any form of question? Did communism understand that was their only salvation?

And one more quandary, delete the post and you prove my point.
delete!!! im scared! hehe i like you ;D;D
DONT LET THIS GUY LEAVE!
IF HE KEEPS QUESTIONING! HELL EVENTUALLY ACCEPT ISLAM!!! I BELIEVE IT TO BE TRUE!!

keep questioning islam my friend... eventually the love will pour into your heart and inshallah youll help propegate TRUE islam.
Not the ignorance and misconception.
i make dua for you and me inshallah.
GOD HAS ALREADY CHOSEN YOU! :statisfie SO KEEP FIGHTING! ;D
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Eliphaz
03-18-2010, 10:08 PM
I agree with what Thinker has said here. Particularly regarding Muslims who know Islam living in the West to be living in a moral and intellectual quandary. Many of the Muslims I know find it hard to reconcile living between two realities, that of the decent people living around them to the way disbelievers are portrayed in the Qur'an as being evil and rebellious.

Yes, the Prophet did tell his followers to go to Abyssinia and to live peacefully among the Christians, but this was when Islam was an endangered religion. Once Islam became dominant in the Hijaz it was a different story.

Going back to the OP, Thinker is not saying Islam is afraid of him as a person, but rather those who question Islam. I have seen countless threads on this and other forums as well as talks and discussions where Muslims (let alone non-Muslims) have asked awkward questions, only to be silenced or patronised, where they are told to "do not speak without knowledge" or "it is better not to speak on matters we do not have knowledge on" or "such-and-such questions are from Shaytaan." When we attribute all doubt in a belief to Shaytaan then we make those who question and cause doubts in Muslims the proponents of Shaytaan and as a result we leave no room for real debate.
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Argamemnon
03-18-2010, 10:45 PM
I have been "bullied" a zillion times on various message boards, but I simply don't care. I know who I am, I know my intentions and I trust Allah (SWT). Just recently, someone on a Turkish Islamic site told me that I can't be a Muslim, if I don't agree with his views on jihad. He basically argued that we (Muslims) must continuously wage war on non-Muslims regardless if they are hostile or not. I beg to differ and don't care what this person thinks. There are a lot of ignorant and hateful people in this world, regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. What others say can't upset me. Who are they??

:wa:
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aadil77
03-18-2010, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Eliphaz
or "it is better not to speak on matters we do not have knowledge on" or "such-and-such questions are from Shaytaan."
Theres nothing wrong with that, when it reaches the stage when we end up questioning Allahs will, then thats when we have to shut up, because we simply don't have the knowledge or reasoning behind those matters and knowledge of those matters would not affect us in anyway either otherwise it would have been given to us. Its basically questions like why did Allah create earth or humans etc, the answers to that would benefit us in no way.
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Argamemnon
03-18-2010, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Eliphaz
When we attribute all doubt in a belief to Shaytaan then we make those who question and cause doubts in Muslims the proponents of Shaytaan and as a result we leave no room for real debate.
Why would I "debate" with an Islam hater? To him his religion, to me mine. I have better things to do. I only debate if/when I want.
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جوري
03-18-2010, 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
I have been "bullied" a zillion times on various message boards, but I simply don't care. I know who I am, I know my intentions and I trust Allah (SWT). Just recently, someone on a Turkish Islamic site told me that I can't be a Muslim, if I don't agree with his views on jihad. He basically argued that we (Muslims) must continuously wage war on non-Muslims regardless if they are hostile or not. I beg to differ and don't care what this person thinks. There are a lot of ignorant and hateful people in this world, regardless of race, ethnicity or religion. Why would you get so upset about what others say? Who are they?

:wa:
I have been kicked out of an atheist forum in exactly three days.. and I wasn't using foul language as they do.. the F word is a special part of their meaningless existence and on one anti-Islamic forum I had to make an account 13 times in one day to reply to B.S allegations that they have concocted and wanted desperately to believe.. sob7an Allah.. also been made to feel so unwelcome in one Islamic forum (during the time of the schivo case) one sister there just hounded me, I had one post approved for every one of her 20 and at the end they weren't posting my comments at all.. it is as if she would read it, reply to the part she wanted without posting the whole thing in context.. I was so frustrated I left.

People who protest so much especially this Eliphaz is one of the most ignorant folks on this forum.. ignorant people I have found to always be so belligerent and loud because it is their only means for survival, agreeing with anyone so long as it is the voice of dissent... they have nothing of substance to impart so they ingratiate themselves to anyone who can put a coherent sentence together, pseudo-intellect by proxy..

I wouldn't even bother anymore really explaining.. this forum survived as long as it did with that many forumers because it is a very special place to be in..

I have made incredible friends here, lasting kinships and probably was a haven for me to take me through my most difficult times.. if people had half a brain to be objective they'd notice that everyone is treated with respect and equally so!

:w:
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Argamemnon
03-18-2010, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have been kicked out of an atheist forum in exactly three days.:
I too was kicked out of an atheist forum, but in just one or two days!! They were so incredibly hostile, unbelievable. And I was basically told that they had the right to insult me, but that I could not respond in a similar way!! (I wasn't even insulting like them)

:wa:
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Alpha Dude
03-18-2010, 11:12 PM
When we attribute all doubt in a belief to Shaytaan then we make those who question and cause doubts in Muslims the proponents of Shaytaan and as a result we leave no room for real debate.
Iman in islam means 'decisive confirmation'. Once a person has this confirmed belief in Allah and Muhammad Sallalahu Alaihe Wasalam having spoken the truth, then it is incumbent upon them to not go against the commandments. There has to be a point where there is submission.

Of course, by all means, there should be a sincere seeking of answers if there is a doubt in the existence of Allah and the Prophethood of Muhammad, peace be upon him, in the first place, but once those things are there, it is illogical and irrational to question or have doubt over things that have been declared out of bounds (like the issue of qadr, we have been told to not delve too deeply into it) - all these things do is open the door to shaytan (who a person with decisive confirmation in Islam ought to believe exists and ought to treat as an enemy).

Since we have been commanded also to think good of other muslims, we don't assume that they are having doubt over the existence of Allah and the Prophethood of Allah when they ask questions about things that are out of bounds, then the only logical and compassionate alternative is to caution them to the error of their ways.
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Muhammad
03-18-2010, 11:22 PM
Greetings,

It seems most of the points have already been mentioned by others. It's interesting to note that we did have a discussion about this issue with Thinker in the Heldesk, so why he decided to return back to square one and try and gain some public sympathy is unclear.

A clarification should be made regarding Thinker's statement, "I joined this site some time back to learn about Islam and to try and understand Muslims." What he really meant to say was, and quoting his own words from our previous discussion:

Originally Posted by Thinker
And, contrary to what you appear to believe, I believe that searching for an answer is not simply a matter of asking a question but also about questioning the answer and putting alternative answers forwards for evaluation and examination.
Thinker appears to believe he is in a position to put alternative answers forward for Muslims to follow. He further believes that if his posts on the matter - as authoritative as he believes they are - should happen to be deleted, then he is being "bullied"!

So we see that the matter has nothing to do with asking questions about Islam for the purpose of learning. There are sufficient threads across the forum to prove this. Rather a distinction needs to be made between different types of questions - there can be genuine people asking "difficult questions about Islam" and trolls wasting people's time. Not only this, but there are other types of questions that simply have no use to them whatsoever. And it is out of a respect for our religion and its teachings that we will not allow ignorant people to start spreading nonsense, nor will we lend ourselves to discussions that only serve to create doubt and confusion.

Originally Posted by Eliphaz
I agree with what Thinker has said here. Particularly regarding Muslims who know Islam living in the West to be living in a moral and intellectual quandary. Many of the Muslims I know find it hard to reconcile living between two realities, that of the decent people living around them to the way disbelievers are portrayed in the Qur'an as being evil and rebellious.
What I find very strange is non-Muslims delving into such issues as though they are Muslim scholars qualified to speak about them. One may have read a verse from the Qur'an (an english translation no doubt) and a hadeeth or two on the topic, but the science of deriving rulings in Islam is very detailed and extensive, and one only demonstrates a lack of intelligence by assuming they have grasped an issue from partial evidences and superficial understanding. Muslims already have plenty of scholars to consult - we do not need non-Muslims coming on the forum to re-interpret our religion for us, giving Islamic verdicts or advice, or as in the case above, "putting alternative answers forwards for evaluation and examination"!


Lastly, we do not allow such threads protesting actions of moderators in public. That is what the Helpdesk is for. I would therefore remind the OP to use it in future.

Thread closed.
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