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marwen
03-20-2010, 09:04 PM
Today 20 March, 2010 :
"Dozens of people were arrested and several injured after violent clashes between anti-Muslim militants and anti-fascist protesters and police during a demonstration in Bolton. " .. more



Does England have really a problem with muslims ?
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Supreme
03-20-2010, 10:29 PM
Yes, it does. Of course it does. Not every English person, of course. Thats why there were UAF protesters there (although not as many, admittedly).
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marwen
03-21-2010, 02:30 PM
Personally I don't live in England, but I want to go there to visit it some day. So I don't really have a big idea about what looks like to be a muslim in England. However I think, England is the better european country who accepted any kind of religion. Many muslim brothers live there better than in some arabic countries. That's said, I don't deny that some english people have strange feelings against muslims, I mean, that's totally natural, they aren't yet familiarised with seeing muslims working with them and standing near to them in a supermarket. although, many white british who get acquainted with muslims and speaked with them say that it's ok to live with muslims : they are humans no ? except they have slightly a different opinion according to religious beliefs.
Plus, many people in the UAF who protested against the ant-muslim militants are non-muslims, and that's a good thing.
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Life_Is_Short
03-21-2010, 02:57 PM
It's the media that feeds hatred into the mind of public.
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marwen
03-21-2010, 03:19 PM
yeah.. that too.
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Supreme
03-21-2010, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by marwen
Personally I don't live in England, but I want to go there to visit it some day. So I don't really have a big idea about what looks like to be a muslim in England. However I think, England is the better european country who accepted any kind of religion. Many muslim brothers live there better than in some arabic countries. That's said, I don't deny that some english people have strange feelings against muslims, I mean, that's totally natural, they aren't yet familiarised with seeing muslims working with them and standing near to them in a supermarket. although, many white british who get acquainted with muslims and speaked with them say that it's ok to live with muslims : they are humans no ? except they have slightly a different opinion according to religious beliefs.
Plus, many people in the UAF who protested against the ant-muslim militants are non-muslims, and that's a good thing.
Oh absoloutely. Islam is quite an alien culture, but most English people are more curious than full of hatred. England is perhaps one of the Islamically tolerant countries in Europe.
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abdulali
03-21-2010, 08:41 PM
I think at the moment muslims are under the microscope. I feel that muslims are potrayed in a negative light by the media around the world. This gives people who have hatred towards different religions and cultures ammunition to vent their hatred.

There is a lot of anti-islam feeling but those that are educated and intelligent understand and respect people for who they are regardless of race, religion & colour.
I live in the Uk and I have experienced both end of the spectrum and it is mostly good.
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tango92
03-21-2010, 08:59 PM
honestly guys, if the taliban didnt go and set those bombs of @ 7/7 the people would be far more tolerant of us.

still i think most people recognize most muslims are not violent, but because they are now under threat of taliban they have to take their anger out on those percieved to be in league with the taliban....

oh and english people just generally love racism and violence. just come to a football match someday and youll see
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Supreme
03-21-2010, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
honestly guys, if the taliban didnt go and set those bombs of @ 7/7 the people would be far more tolerant of us.

still i think most people recognize most muslims are not violent, but because they are now under threat of taliban they have to take their anger out on those percieved to be in league with the taliban....

oh and english people just generally love racism and violence. just come to a football match someday and youll see
The Taliban didn't commit 7/7. Islamists with loose connections to al Queda did. I believe they were responding to the British occupation of Iraq. Which was a response to the belief Saddam had WMD.

Although, 7/7 hardly helped matters in Britain. In the weeks after 7/7, mosques were vandalized, Muslims were hospitalized and Islam was in the bad media spotlight.
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Life_Is_Short
03-21-2010, 09:13 PM
Not every muslims is a "taliban" or part of al-Qaeda.

Why can't people just understand that?
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marwen
03-21-2010, 09:41 PM
As you mentioned the 7/7 bombs, all I can say is that the people who committed it are CRIMINALS. But the problem with the whole occidental countries is that, when a criminal muslim commit a crime, they say : islamists are terrorist. but when a christian or a jew or an atheist commit a crime, they say : he is a criminal, without mentionning his religion.
I don't know why european people try to recall the islam when a criminal is a muslim, why not they judge him just for his crime.
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-22-2010, 01:31 AM
i just love when English/white people yap on about how Muslims want to overrun their country. i mean, hello! does the name 'Captain James Cook' ring a bell...or maybe the name 'Christopher Columbus' does. go read your own history and go look at the state Iraq and Afghanistan are in with all thanks to your soldiers. man, your own history is riddled with racism and slaughtering the masses and other such atrocities...if you want something to whinge about, go whinge about that.
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nocturnal
03-22-2010, 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
i just love when English/white people yap on about how Muslims want to overrun their country. i mean, hello! does the name 'Captain James Cook' ring a bell...or maybe the name 'Christopher Columbus' does. go read your own history and go look at the state Iraq and Afghanistan are in with all thanks to your soldiers. man, your own history is riddled with racism and slaughtering the masses and other such atrocities...if you want something to whinge about, go whinge about that.

This sort of unhelpful populist ranting does not serve to bridge the vacum between Muslims and non-Muslims in the UK. Columbus and James Cook are revered by people the world over as pioneering explorers of their time and rightly so. And yes, colonial authorities did subjugate whole populations, which was unacceptable.

But the vast majority of people in the UK, non-Muslims especially, realise that Muslims do not pose an existential threat to them. Muslims are part of the social fabric of this country, and not an external rabble of violence-mongerers and instigators of radicalisation of disaffected young people.
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IslamicRevival
03-22-2010, 02:43 AM
Yes And No... ...
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Zafran
03-22-2010, 02:56 AM
Salaam

I live in England and i am a muslim. This anti Islamic organisation which did the protest is quite new. England or more accurate the UK does not realy have a major problem with muslims..............as long they dont do acts like 7/7. The right wing is just using this in there advantage as many people are confused and scared of what Islam is all about.

The irony of the protest is that it was done in Bolton where quite a few muslims live.....to create problems- with the UAF showing up it created a even larger public stunt. It clearly shows that there are two views. The rightwing being less popular although many rightwing groups are trying to push it to the mainstream.

peace
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Ummu Sufyaan
03-22-2010, 05:40 AM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
This sort of unhelpful populist ranting does not serve to bridge the vacum between Muslims and non-Muslims in the UK. Columbus and James Cook are revered by people the world over as pioneering explorers of their time and rightly so. And yes, colonial authorities did subjugate whole populations, which was unacceptable.

But the vast majority of people in the UK, non-Muslims especially, realise that Muslims do not pose an existential threat to them. Muslims are part of the social fabric of this country, and not an external rabble of violence-mongerers and instigators of radicalisation of disaffected young people.
whatever floats your boat, dude.
we can be as tolerant as we can, who ever hates us, will always hate us. and likewise, whoever like us, will always like us. 9/11, etc is just an excuse to vent their (the ones who hate us) anger and hate towards us that's been bottled inside them over the generations.
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Skavau
03-22-2010, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
whatever floats your boat, dude.
we can be as tolerant as we can, who ever hates us, will always hate us. and likewise, whoever like us, will always like us. 9/11, etc is just an excuse to vent their (the ones who hate us) anger and hate towards us that's been bottled inside them over the generations.
Why do you imagine someone would hate an entire group of people? I don't get it. Like it or not, valid or not - people do, irrational or otherwise have suspicions towards Muslims (and indeed other minority groups). Be it based on a fear of a takeover from within, or contempt of islamic culture or islamic ethics - there is and are reasons.

The only group(s) I actually know that might hate Muslims rather than Islam are White Nationalists/Supremists.
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The_Prince
03-22-2010, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Why do you imagine someone would hate an entire group of people? I don't get it. Like it or not, valid or not - people do, irrational or otherwise have suspicions towards Muslims (and indeed other minority groups). Be it based on a fear of a takeover from within, or contempt of islamic culture or islamic ethics - there is and are reasons.

The only group(s) I actually know that might hate Muslims rather than Islam are White Nationalists/Supremists.
you got it perfectly right, people are not only suspect of Muslims, but other minorities as well, and who are these people with all this suspicion? white people! as ive said in another post, we need to stop being PC (as many white pundits have also said) and say it like it is, its white people having a problem with Muslims, and with Islam, and with anything that is essentially different.

you will find that many of the bigoted comments and propaganda made against Muslims also happened to be made against the Blacks, Hispanics, and other ethnic minorities. in America they basically say the exact same thing about Mexicans as the Europeans do about Muslims in Europe. its the same pattern, same language, over and over again, and its the same people, white people. white people having a problem with people who arent white, and people who have a somewhat different culture than the white culture.
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Skavau
03-22-2010, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
you got it perfectly right, people are not only suspect of Muslims, but other minorities as well, and who are these people with all this suspicion? white people! as ive said in another post, we need to stop being PC (as many white pundits have also said) and say it like it is, its white people having a problem with Muslims, and with Islam, and with anything that is essentially different.

you will find that many of the bigoted comments and propaganda made against Muslims also happened to be made against the Blacks, Hispanics, and other ethnic minorities. in America they basically say the exact same thing about Mexicans as the Europeans do about Muslims in Europe. its the same pattern, same language, over and over again, and its the same people, white people. white people having a problem with people who arent white, and people who have a somewhat different culture than the white culture.
This observation might be striking if perhaps caucasians in Europe and North America did not represent a majority, and therefore would statistically be more likely to be seen to hold contempt and prejudice against minorities. It would also be more apt an observation if we did not observe a trend of majority suspicion against the minority in general, no matter the race or culture.

A simple response is that it is true by definition (an example) that White Nationalists and Supremists will only hold specific contempt for non-whites.
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Uncle Jee
03-22-2010, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
you got it perfectly right, people are not only suspect of Muslims, but other minorities as well, and who are these people with all this suspicion? white people! as ive said in another post, we need to stop being PC (as many white pundits have also said) and say it like it is, its white people having a problem with Muslims, and with Islam, and with anything that is essentially different.

you will find that many of the bigoted comments and propaganda made against Muslims also happened to be made against the Blacks, Hispanics, and other ethnic minorities. in America they basically say the exact same thing about Mexicans as the Europeans do about Muslims in Europe. its the same pattern, same language, over and over again, and its the same people, white people. white people having a problem with people who arent white, and people who have a somewhat different culture than the white culture.
I don't think it is only white people. The reason why you might feel is that the host population is white, some of the racism comes from whites hence your comment above.

If you look at the racism towards whites is in a lot of Pakistani people, the simple term 'gora' used to describe any white person is simply ridiculous. I for one have stopped talking in Punjabi if there are any white people around mainly because they will think you are talking about them. Which is totally justified.

The problem with Muslims that the English have seems to come from 3 sources. The media, bnp type people and Muslims themselves. It seems sometimes that the brothers will do anything not to integrate and to distance themselves from the host population. For Allah sake we have Muslim businesses in the UK where some of the staff can't even speak English! Imagine how the English feel when they are treated with such contempt in their own country by us Muslims!
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Amadeus85
03-22-2010, 08:56 PM
I think that Europe, including UK, has first of all problem with itself, not with islamic faith. The spiritual, cultural and even economical situtation of Europe is weak or fatal. We are spiritually weak, thats why we are afraid of a minority among us.
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believeByHEART.
03-22-2010, 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by Life_Is_Short
Not every muslims is a "taliban" or part of al-Qaeda.

Why can't people just understand that?
because there are alot of uneducated ignorant arrogant pathetic toerags in britain!!! who do nothing but delight themselves in taking the 'P' for their amusement out of things that aren't even remotely true! like all the suicide bombing, i mean who in their right mind would do that anyway if they were under a religions name or not? i suppose people succumb to the media speculation just abit too much! There's also no decent education, especially on recent events, to put things right to the people, i blame the government, if they dont want hell breaking loose, they should set the priorities straight. Though unless you had a decent education, care about and understand the society you live in actively, and actually read the news, then there's a glimmer of hope for us, that that person has an initiative & logic to understand our religion, and understands that the paper can be filled with aload of bull half the time to suit their needs!

Britain frustrates me sometimes, the people say things thinking they are right because 'their paper or news said so' but don't want to learn the truth or know it from us REAL MUSLIMS. grrr..
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Skavau
03-22-2010, 10:05 PM
You all must be living in a parallel universe. I don't think I've ever met anyone ever, by the way, that entrusts in the media (quite the opposite). When you guys keep complaining about people who just unquestioningly accept the claims of the media, what media exactly is it that you are talking about?
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believeByHEART.
03-22-2010, 10:23 PM
the british media, your newspapers for example. everything about it just encapsulates the whole fake violent concept of Islam, they take one thing thats happend, name it with a big fat ISLAM tag, include the word bomb, gives it a death toll, use some emotive words to scare the reader, and wow, theres all these raving british people getting the complete wrong idea, shouting abuse at any sight of a muslim person, using intimidation and violence against them, yet not questioning their own knowledge and acknowledging their own logic and initiative to think about the WHY? Fact is, how does the british people find out about everything happening outside the country? MEDIA. where does the information come from about Iraq, army, war, Aghanistan, the bombings by 'islamic' *cough* people in other countries? MEDIA. & then mixed up with every person's bloody opinion on it, well what can you expect? a dillusioned society if im honest.
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Junon
03-22-2010, 10:29 PM
Salaam

Eh? Of course the mainstream media has an effect, to say that it doesn't is naive, after all why would businesses pump millions, billions into the media industry if doesnt succesfully shape and mould public opinion for their own benifet?

Just one example, had a friend who's mum read the Sun regularly in the 1980s during the miners strike. Of course she dutifuly repeated that she didnt believe anything the Sun said, though her attitudes to the strike could be easily identified as being influenced (consciously subconsciously) by the Suns stance towards the strike.
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Life_Is_Short
03-22-2010, 11:45 PM
Islam is misunderstood in the west and the media makes sure this is the case.

Research by University of Cardiff proves this.

The language used about British Muslims reflects the negative or problematic contexts in which they tend to appear. Four of the five most common discourses used about Muslims in the British press associate Islam/Muslims with threats, problems or in opposition to dominant British values. So, for example, the idea that Islam is dangerous, backward or irrational is present in 26% of stories. By contrast, only 2% of stories contained the proposition that Muslims supported dominant moral values.
Similarly, we found that the most common nouns used in relation to British Muslims were terrorist, extremist, Islamist, suicide bomber and militant, with very few positive nouns (such as ‘scholar’) used. The most common adjectives used were radical, fanatical, fundamentalist, extremist and militant. Indeed, references to radical Muslims outnumber references to moderate Muslims by 17 to one.
Full study here.

Yeah and one more thing. Hitler, Al Capone (1930s gangster) and Timothy McVeigh (the man who confessed to bombing the Federal building in Oklahoma City) all claimed to be Christians. Does anyone judge christianity by some people who claim to be in that religion? Absolutely not!
Text in the Talmud suggest the children of Israel are allowed to subjugate, oppress and exploit through usury the whole of humanity, except the Jews. Now do we hear these verses the same way we hear the verses of Qur'an (which infact are taken out of context)? Absolutely not!
Us Muslim hear and are questioned one too many times about how/why Qur'an teaches injustice, terrorism, oppression which infact it does not.

Why is that?
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Skavau
03-23-2010, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by believeByHEART.
the british media, your newspapers for example. everything about it just encapsulates the whole fake violent concept of Islam, they take one thing thats happend, name it with a big fat ISLAM tag, include the word bomb, gives it a death toll, use some emotive words to scare the reader, and wow, theres all these raving british people getting the complete wrong idea, shouting abuse at any sight of a muslim person, using intimidation and violence against them, yet not questioning their own knowledge and acknowledging their own logic and initiative to think about the WHY?
Examples please. I've never seen any news story ever directly blame Islam or all Muslims collectively for an incident.

Fact is, how does the british people find out about everything happening outside the country? MEDIA.
That goes without saying. However, as you well know as well as I do. We do not need to just rely purely on trash tabloids now, do we? Media 'brainwashing' is impossible in the age of information where censorship on the internet is almost impossible due to the the status of content going viral.
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Skavau
03-23-2010, 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by Life_Is_Short
Islam is misunderstood in the west and the media makes sure this is the case.

Research by University of Cardiff proves this.



Full study here.

Yeah and one more thing. Hitler, Al Capone (1930s gangster) and Timothy McVeigh (the man who confessed to bombing the Federal building in Oklahoma City) all claimed to be Christians. Does anyone judge christianity by some people who claim to be in that religion? Absolutely not!
Text in the Talmud suggest the children of Israel are allowed to subjugate, oppress and exploit through usury the whole of humanity, except the Jews. Now do we hear these verses the same way we hear the verses of Qur'an (which infact are taken out of context)? Absolutely not!
Us Muslim hear and are questioned one too many times about how/why Qur'an teaches injustice, terrorism, oppression which infact it does not.

Why is that?
Because news storys primarily report the negative. News articles about the good work Muslims do get outweighed by the bad work Muslims do. It is the exact same for Catholics and indeed Christianity in general in the media, if you're trying to pretend that Christianity somehow mystically evades criticism and mockery in the Uk media (it does not).

I would also add you ask "Why is that?" at the end of the analysis. I'll ask you. Presumably you think the media has an irrational agenda against Islam. Why do you think this is?
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Ramadhan
03-23-2010, 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by Junon
Salaam

Eh? Of course the mainstream media has an effect, to say that it doesn't is naive, after all why would businesses pump millions, billions into the media industry if doesnt succesfully shape and mould public opinion for their own benifet?
Totally agree.
How can people already so quickly forget that the Bush and Blair administrations (along with other western governments) used the mainstream media to successfully advance the case for invading Iraq?

Mainstream media do affect public opinion to a large extent.
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Junon
03-23-2010, 12:33 PM
Salaam

Totally agree.
How can people already so quickly forget that the Bush and Blair administrations (along with other western governments) used the mainstream media to successfully advance the case for invading Iraq?

Mainstream media do affect public opinion to a large extent.
Iraq example is a classic, if you ever get a chance watch War made Easy, its excellent giving a history of how American government and media work together to manipulate public opinion.

http://www.warmadeeasythemovie.org/

If you want my reason why Western media is generaly hostile, is because Muslims dont submit to Western norms, hence the tantrums. I'll quote from an earlier post

Shalom:

What are the significance and extent of Anti Arab racism?

Chomsky

In the United State, its really the last legitimate form of racism. You don’t have to try to cover it up. You may be racist towards other groups, but you have to pretend you aren’t. In the case of anti Arab racism there’s no pretence required. The things I mentioned before are a perfect example. Distinguished Harvard professors produce statements that regard as hideously racist if they were aimed at any other target – Jews: impossible; Blacks, Italians any of them, unacceptable – but if you say them about Arabs, its fine. Jack Shaheen is one scholar whos done a lot of research on images of Arabs in cinema. Its grotesque right up to the present day. There’s not even much to say about it; its open, its considered natural and normal that you should be an anti Arab racist. Nobody will use the term for it, but it’s the kind of attitude and discourse that we regard as hideously racists if it was directed at any other target. Its all over the place.

Achcar:

And anti Arab racism is probably the sharpest form of even something more general, Islamophobia

Chomsky

Well nobody makes that distinction – Arabs, Iranian, Islam its all the same thing

Achcar

Exactly try to put yourself in the shoes of a Muslim and monitor the mass media. Its appalling. You get the feeling of being assaulted permanently. I am not speaking of actual acts of racists aggression, the discrimination and all that. I am speaking just about the media. Edward Said touched upon that in Covering Islam. The situation has worsened a lot since that book was first published in 1981, and it reached a peak after 9/11. The sheer quantity of ant Islam insanities and racists categorisations being hurled by people who are in most cases totally ignorant is absolutely horrible. I cant measure the difference between Europe and United States but in any case, in Europe this Islamophobia is a huge and worrying phenomenon.
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...m-world-4.html (Post 49)
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Sis786
03-23-2010, 05:27 PM
I am Muslim and I am British and to be honest in real life I have never suffered due to my faith. In my job I have to mix with a lot of people and most the time they are not Muslim, but I have never had a problem. I think even if someone did have a problem they wouldn't be obvious about it.

You have the EDL who are stirring up trouble but if you really look at them its about 300 fat drunken men who dont what day it is let alone about the religion of Islam. They prob wouldnt be able to spell it.

I think the problem is the media and its very biased. If you read stuff like the Sun and Daily Mail yeah they like to pick on Muslims, and some people like to act like Internet Warriors but in real life very few Muslims are attacked for their religion.

I think racism is more of a problem.

Just my opinion.
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Ramadhan
03-24-2010, 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
You all must be living in a parallel universe. I don't think I've ever met anyone ever, by the way, that entrusts in the media (quite the opposite). When you guys keep complaining about people who just unquestioningly accept the claims of the media, what media exactly is it that you are talking about?
either:
a. Your universe is a very small place under a rock,
b. You know/met extremely few number of people,
c. You don't read/get around much, or
d. all of the above

It is a fact that media affect and has large influence in directing public opinion.
I am not talking about North Korea type where people are brainwashed by government-owned media to the extent where most people believe what is said by their media to the letter.
I am talking about supposedly open and transparent western media where a very large number of americans tune into tv every night and believe everything Fox news says. I am talking about how Berlusconi won and maintained prime ministerships through his control of the media.
I am talking about how majority americans and british initially supported Iraq invasion because the media said it was a good thing.
I am talking about how it is impossible to find mainstream US media that have the guts and spine to tell it as it is and condemn israel.
Of course not all people believe in what media says, but when most media keep sending/broadcasting/writing certain images about something, majority public will tend to agree with it.
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