Jesus prophecied Islam in Bible-parallels

[MuslimFinlande]

JESUS PROPHESIED ISLAM AND DESCRIBED "PEOPLE OF THE BOOK" OF KORAN

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>

Topic: Jesus prophesied Islam

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>

JESUS PROPHECIES ISLAM / MOHAMMED (peace be upon him) AND TOLD ABOUT “PEOPLE OF THE BOOK”-RELIGIONS (in Qur..an 600 years later!), AND TIME-SCHEDULE OF THOSE, AND TOLD ORDER OF THOSE RELIGIONS WITH DESCRIPTIONS: (Allah knows best)



(These two "hidden prophecy" are connected to Luke.5:36-39, why new religion is necessary instead of change of old religions.)

1 "hour" = approx. 200 hundred years, from Abraham/Jacob 1800-1700 BC (and so Jewish-religion 1600 BC->) to Islam 632 AC = 2400 years / 12 hours = 200 years

Matt.20:1. "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner (God) who went (send prophets) out early in the morning (before "first hour" of 12 hours of day in Jewish calendar, so Abraham/Jacob 1800-1700 BC and Jews as a religion after them in "first hour" 1600-1400 BC) to hire men (believers) to work (for His glory) in his vineyard (Earth). 2. He agreed to pay them a denarius (paradise) for the day (world history) and sent them into his vineyard.

3. "About the third hour (1300/1200-1100 BC Sabians/Zarathustrians, even in Bible there is two "Sabians" in opposite directions, another possibly in South-Iraq) he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing (Judaism had not spread much outside their own Jewish nation). 4.He told them, 'You also (besides Judaism) go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5. So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour (600 BC beginning of prophesies about Messiah) and the ninth hour (around 1 AC Jesus were born) and did the same thing (created Christians and Christianity, notice simple description as Jesus is speaking about religion most connected to himself).

6. ABOUT (not exactly 400-600 AC) the eleventh hour (Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him: 570-632 AC) he went out (send prophet) and found still others (Arabs) standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing (Arabs had not had religions through prophets, only polytheism-paganism)?'

7. " 'Because no one has hired us (Arabs were so despised that even Byzantium or Persia did not want to conquer and convert them),' they answered."He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8. "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages (what they deserve), beginning with the last ones hired (Muslims) and going on to the first (Jews).'

9. "The workers (Muslims) who were hired about the eleventh hour (500-700 AC) came and each received a denarius. 10. So when those came who were hired first (Jews), they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner (God). 12. 'These men who were hired last (Muslims) worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day (persecutions, slavery, occupations).'

13. "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14. Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous (you want to keep God for your nation only, as a "chosen people")?'

16. "So the last (Muslims) will be first, and the first (Jews) will be last."

[Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, said that even though he was last of prophets, and Muslims are last of believers, they will be first to enter paradise, "last will be first"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>

002.062 (Translation by) YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 "year" = approx. 600 years, from Abraham / Jacob 1800/1700 (and so later Jews) to Islam 632 AC = 2400 years / 4 "year" = 600 years

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>

Luke.13:6. Then he told this parable: "A master (God) had a fig tree (symbol of Israel in Bible), planted in his vineyard (Earth), and he went to look for fruit (results) on it, but did not find any. 7. So he said to the man (Jesus) who took care of the vineyard (Judaism "only true religion"/least corrupted religion in the world in times of Jesus), 'For three (3*600 = 1800) years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil (why not to do better religion)?'

8. " 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one (1*600) more year(s), and I'll dig around it and fertilize it (make world ready for Islam, also in Middle-East, "around" Israel as in [Christian] Arabia/Egypt/Syria). 9. If it bears fruit next year (in 600 years), fine! If not, then cut it down (Judaism and so also its sect/branch Christianity, from way of Islam, after that “year”, 600 years, passed after Jesus to death of Mohammed, pbuh, almost excactly 600 years later in 632AC).'"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>

MY CALCULATIONS IN Matt.20:1-16

There is no mentioning if workers came in what part of each "hour"

("about") 11th = 400-600 AC, Islam 570-632AC (to beginning of 12th) 10th = 200-400 AC 9th = 1 AC-200 AC (Christianity 32 AC ->) 8th = 200 BC- 1 AD 7th = 400 BC-200 BC 6th = 600 BC-400 BC (Messiah prophesied) 5th = 800 BC-600 BC 4th = 1000 BC- 800 BC 3th = 1200-1000 BC (Sabians / Zarathustrians) 2nd = 1400 BC-1200 BC 1st = 1600 BC-1400 BC (Early Jews) "0-hour" = 1800 BC-1600 BC. ("Early in the morning he went", not actually INSIDE first hour, Jewish religion was practically born only after Jacob etc. in 1600 BC-1400 BC)

Well, besides possible corruption in the Bible, Jesus did not go to practice math in schools. It was not his expertise and he was only HUMAN, but id does not dimish his role as a PROPHET in anyway. This is not math-exam, but for people to understand some idea. And maybe he being just a human, who makes errors and has somewhat limited knowledge, is reason also to why there is least "error-marginale" (+ - inside 200 years) in places of parallel connected to himself and Christianity.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>

MY CALCULATIONS IN Luke 13:6-9

Maybe Israel AS AN OFFICIAL STATE (eventhough part of Rome and so not state) was "cut down" 70 AC, but Jewish religion and its sect Christianity did not "expire" as a (right) religions before Islam came 600 years after Jesus (Jesus 32 AC - Mohammed 632 AC) from point of Islam. Israel itself as a state have no importance for God without its religion, do you Christians agree that from Bible?

Israel (that "tree") is not subject anymore after its cutting down (in 600 AC), but ground around it. "Ground around it" is symbol for spiritual, geological, historical and religious connection between semitistic Islamic and Jewish religions. But before it (before Islam, those last 600 years that were given extra-time) Jewish-tree has opportunity to grow fruits "next year". Obviously it did not do so as God created Islam. All that tree produced during that "year" (600 years) was form of Christianity that worshipped Jewish prophet as a god. From Jewish view those are not good fruits.

Could be said that after "Tree of Judaism was cut down" according to Jesus, he became only a prophet of Muslims, and so now he (with Bible) is kind of "mole/spy" of Islam in areas where Islam was not to be spread so much (as in India or China for example). All those areas are under "hidden" power of Islam through Jesus now (there is in hadiths prophecy of Mohammed, be be upon him, that he saw power of Islam stretching from west to east in the future). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>

More questions for Christians refusing this interpretation:

Some would say that verses in Matt.20:1-16 question actually point to divine generosity that transcends human ideas of fairness. Yes it can do that TOO (although first group complaining about payment because of extra-work and master getting furious about it does not really support it), but it is far more complex and long for that alone. It would have just be easy to say that master gives denar for workers, and that’s it.

Most popular Christian interpretation is that here Jesus told how disciples were hired in "early in the morning" and in "third" hour as apostles (it does not make sense at all, as all disciples were "hired" at once by Jesus, not in two time periods, and why would apostles be unhappy about later Christians entering also paradise, even before them, as they were one to convert them?), and that from "sixth" to "ninth" hour is about apostle Paul (again, why it would have been said to happen between these two time-periods, and not just in one?), and that in last hour is talked about all later Christians (who will come "first even though they were last", why would they enter paradise before apostles, and especially why would apostles go mad about them going one second before them into paradise, as all mentioned in parallel are saved anyway?).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>

Some say this Luke.13:6-9 is just numerical games. So tell me more reasonable and as compatible explanation. Fig tree is symbol of Judaism generally in Bible. Also when Jesus cursed fig tree in Matt.21:19 by words "may no fruit ever come from you again", he probably stated that no more prophets are going to come from Jews. And why time schedule fits so well in both of these religions, did Jesus not know about coming of Islam or did he not care how these will look?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This all (and more) can be found from

myspace.com/kaitsu80

and in

Youtube from videos of FinnishConvert

[Steven John]

AoA,
interesting is your writing, so do you assert the bible you read from is the truth form Allah or just this part of that book as you interoperate it?

and which of the versions of Matthew and Luke in what language are you reading from?

may Allah bless and guide us to His truth

[freethinking]

JESUS PROPHESIED ISLAM AND DESCRIBED "PEOPLE OF THE BOOK" OF KORAN

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>

Topic: Jesus prophesied Islam

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>

JESUS PROPHECIES ISLAM / MOHAMMED (peace be upon him) AND TOLD ABOUT “PEOPLE OF THE BOOK”-RELIGIONS (in Qur..an 600 years later!), AND TIME-SCHEDULE OF THOSE, AND TOLD ORDER OF THOSE RELIGIONS WITH DESCRIPTIONS: (Allah knows best)



(These two "hidden prophecy" are connected to Luke.5:36-39, why new religion is necessary instead of change of old religions.)

1 "hour" = approx. 200 hundred years, from Abraham/Jacob 1800-1700 BC (and so Jewish-religion 1600 BC->) to Islam 632 AC = 2400 years / 12 hours = 200 years

Matt.20:1. "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner (God) who went (send prophets) out early in the morning (before "first hour" of 12 hours of day in Jewish calendar, so Abraham/Jacob 1800-1700 BC and Jews as a religion after them in "first hour" 1600-1400 BC) to hire men (believers) to work (for His glory) in his vineyard (Earth). 2. He agreed to pay them a denarius (paradise) for the day (world history) and sent them into his vineyard.

3. "About the third hour (1300/1200-1100 BC Sabians/Zarathustrians, even in Bible there is two "Sabians" in opposite directions, another possibly in South-Iraq) he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing (Judaism had not spread much outside their own Jewish nation). 4.He told them, 'You also (besides Judaism) go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5. So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour (600 BC beginning of prophesies about Messiah) and the ninth hour (around 1 AC Jesus were born) and did the same thing (created Christians and Christianity, notice simple description as Jesus is speaking about religion most connected to himself).

6. ABOUT (not exactly 400-600 AC) the eleventh hour (Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him: 570-632 AC) he went out (send prophet) and found still others (Arabs) standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing (Arabs had not had religions through prophets, only polytheism-paganism)?'

7. " 'Because no one has hired us (Arabs were so despised that even Byzantium or Persia did not want to conquer and convert them),' they answered."He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8. "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages (what they deserve), beginning with the last ones hired (Muslims) and going on to the first (Jews).'

9. "The workers (Muslims) who were hired about the eleventh hour (500-700 AC) came and each received a denarius. 10. So when those came who were hired first (Jews), they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner (God). 12. 'These men who were hired last (Muslims) worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day (persecutions, slavery, occupations).'

13. "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14. Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous (you want to keep God for your nation only, as a "chosen people")?'

16. "So the last (Muslims) will be first, and the first (Jews) will be last."

[Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, said that even though he was last of prophets, and Muslims are last of believers, they will be first to enter paradise, "last will be first"] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>

002.062 (Translation by) YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 "year" = approx. 600 years, from Abraham / Jacob 1800/1700 (and so later Jews) to Islam 632 AC = 2400 years / 4 "year" = 600 years

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>

Luke.13:6. Then he told this parable: "A master (God) had a fig tree (symbol of Israel in Bible), planted in his vineyard (Earth), and he went to look for fruit (results) on it, but did not find any. 7. So he said to the man (Jesus) who took care of the vineyard (Judaism "only true religion"/least corrupted religion in the world in times of Jesus), 'For three (3*600 = 1800) years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil (why not to do better religion)?'

8. " 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one (1*600) more year(s), and I'll dig around it and fertilize it (make world ready for Islam, also in Middle-East, "around" Israel as in [Christian] Arabia/Egypt/Syria). 9. If it bears fruit next year (in 600 years), fine! If not, then cut it down (Judaism and so also its sect/branch Christianity, from way of Islam, after that “year”, 600 years, passed after Jesus to death of Mohammed, pbuh, almost excactly 600 years later in 632AC).'"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>

MY CALCULATIONS IN Matt.20:1-16

There is no mentioning if workers came in what part of each "hour"

("about") 11th = 400-600 AC, Islam 570-632AC (to beginning of 12th) 10th = 200-400 AC 9th = 1 AC-200 AC (Christianity 32 AC ->) 8th = 200 BC- 1 AD 7th = 400 BC-200 BC 6th = 600 BC-400 BC (Messiah prophesied) 5th = 800 BC-600 BC 4th = 1000 BC- 800 BC 3th = 1200-1000 BC (Sabians / Zarathustrians) 2nd = 1400 BC-1200 BC 1st = 1600 BC-1400 BC (Early Jews) "0-hour" = 1800 BC-1600 BC. ("Early in the morning he went", not actually INSIDE first hour, Jewish religion was practically born only after Jacob etc. in 1600 BC-1400 BC)

Well, besides possible corruption in the Bible, Jesus did not go to practice math in schools. It was not his expertise and he was only HUMAN, but id does not dimish his role as a PROPHET in anyway. This is not math-exam, but for people to understand some idea. And maybe he being just a human, who makes errors and has somewhat limited knowledge, is reason also to why there is least "error-marginale" (+ - inside 200 years) in places of parallel connected to himself and Christianity.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>

MY CALCULATIONS IN Luke 13:6-9

Maybe Israel AS AN OFFICIAL STATE (eventhough part of Rome and so not state) was "cut down" 70 AC, but Jewish religion and its sect Christianity did not "expire" as a (right) religions before Islam came 600 years after Jesus (Jesus 32 AC - Mohammed 632 AC) from point of Islam. Israel itself as a state have no importance for God without its religion, do you Christians agree that from Bible?

Israel (that "tree") is not subject anymore after its cutting down (in 600 AC), but ground around it. "Ground around it" is symbol for spiritual, geological, historical and religious connection between semitistic Islamic and Jewish religions. But before it (before Islam, those last 600 years that were given extra-time) Jewish-tree has opportunity to grow fruits "next year". Obviously it did not do so as God created Islam. All that tree produced during that "year" (600 years) was form of Christianity that worshipped Jewish prophet as a god. From Jewish view those are not good fruits.

Could be said that after "Tree of Judaism was cut down" according to Jesus, he became only a prophet of Muslims, and so now he (with Bible) is kind of "mole/spy" of Islam in areas where Islam was not to be spread so much (as in India or China for example). All those areas are under "hidden" power of Islam through Jesus now (there is in hadiths prophecy of Mohammed, be be upon him, that he saw power of Islam stretching from west to east in the future). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>

More questions for Christians refusing this interpretation:

Some would say that verses in Matt.20:1-16 question actually point to divine generosity that transcends human ideas of fairness. Yes it can do that TOO (although first group complaining about payment because of extra-work and master getting furious about it does not really support it), but it is far more complex and long for that alone. It would have just be easy to say that master gives denar for workers, and that’s it.

Most popular Christian interpretation is that here Jesus told how disciples were hired in "early in the morning" and in "third" hour as apostles (it does not make sense at all, as all disciples were "hired" at once by Jesus, not in two time periods, and why would apostles be unhappy about later Christians entering also paradise, even before them, as they were one to convert them?), and that from "sixth" to "ninth" hour is about apostle Paul (again, why it would have been said to happen between these two time-periods, and not just in one?), and that in last hour is talked about all later Christians (who will come "first even though they were last", why would they enter paradise before apostles, and especially why would apostles go mad about them going one second before them into paradise, as all mentioned in parallel are saved anyway?).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>

Some say this Luke.13:6-9 is just numerical games. So tell me more reasonable and as compatible explanation. Fig tree is symbol of Judaism generally in Bible. Also when Jesus cursed fig tree in Matt.21:19 by words "may no fruit ever come from you again", he probably stated that no more prophets are going to come from Jews. And why time schedule fits so well in both of these religions, did Jesus not know about coming of Islam or did he not care how these will look?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This all (and more) can be found from

myspace.com/kaitsu80

and in

Youtube from videos of FinnishConvert

As you calim Luke to be the key to this stange idea, here is the passge from the King James version in full:
Luke 5:36-39 (King James Version)


36And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
37And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
39No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Now how on earth does this relate to people of the Book?

If there is anywhere in the Bible that did refer to people of the book it would doubtless be about people from the OT in any case,
Do you have some surreal copy of the Bible I have not seen:?


Peace be with you

[aadil77]

AoA,
interesting is your writing, so do you assert the bible you read from is the truth form Allah or just this part of that book as you interoperate it?

and which of the versions of Matthew and Luke in what language are you reading from?

may Allah bless and guide us to His truth

We're told by Allah that the previous scriptures are corrupted but we may find some truth in them

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[Steven John]

We're told by Allah that the previous scriptures are corrupted but we may find some truth in them

AoA, yes this is so, for me i find loads, i was asking the other poster about where they are at, to see more of what they see. Narrations in the books of the bible are oft of Allahs goodness.

Would you like to share with me what language and bible versions you prefer in seeking Allahs goodness?

May Allah bless and guide you and yours as youes submit unto Him

[Ramadhan]

Would you like to share with me what language and bible versions you prefer in seeking Allahs goodness?

If you want to seek the truth, read the Qur'an.

[Steven John]

If you want to seek the truth, read the Qur'an.

AsSalum o Alikum, that departs from this thread discussion as it offers no parallel.
If you mean Allah inspires you, we should all leave this thread and go to others that would be ok with me.

May Allah bless and guide us with strength to seek His goodness and bring it out from the errors of men.

[Ramadhan]

AsSalum o Alikum, that departs from this thread discussion as it offers no parallel.
If you mean Allah inspires you, we should all leave this thread and go to others that would be ok with me.

May Allah bless and guide us with strength to seek His goodness and bring it out from the errors of men.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Steven John]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Its ok i figured that from your previous post.

The thread uses the bible narrations to show prophecy for Quran, so to say

If you want to seek the truth, read the Qur'an.

leaves the thread

Jesus prophecied Islam in Bible-parallels

It uses both with the poster seeing "truth" in the bible.

By His will may Allah bless and guide you and yours as youes submit unto Him

[Ramadhan]

Its ok i figured that from your previous post.

The thread uses the bible narrations to show prophecy for Quran, so to say leaves the thread It uses both with the poster seeing "truth" in the bible.

By His will may Allah bless and guide you and yours as youes submit unto Him

I assume you are a muslim. Am I correct?
And as a muslim it is clear that the Qur'an is the truth.
So anything in the bible which contradicts the Qur'an is not the truth,
and can only be attributed to the additions and changes made by
human (scribes, rabbis, priests, etc).

This is very easy, no?

[freethinking]

I assume you are a muslim. Am I correct?
And as a muslim it is clear that the Qur'an is the truth.
So anything in the bible which contradicts the Qur'an is not the truth,
and can only be attributed to the additions and changes made by
human (scribes, rabbis, priests, etc).

This is very easy, no?

Is it easy though? When I read the quran I saw no real references to Gods Holy Spirit also known in the OT as the COMFORTER, SOURCE OF WISDOM, and source of Gods messages to Man either directly or through people and angels indirectly.
Jesus himself stated that the only sin which will not be forgiven is to Blaspheme against the Holy spirit so where is information in the quran about this?
I do not recall reading about Gods wonderful Holy spirit within that book

Peace and Blessings be with you from God

[Steven John]

I assume you are a muslim. Am I correct?

I guess so but there are so many interpretations to who is Muslim and who is not. People of the Islamic religion are very divided as to who is Muslim. I would see myself as aspiring to submit to Allah. I do seem to sin from time to time, mostly poor choice of words ie few > a lot. May Allah forgive me.

And as a muslim it is clear that the Qur'an is the truth.
So anything in the bible which contradicts the Qur'an is not the truth,
and can only be attributed to the additions and changes made by
human (scribes, rabbis, priests, etc).

Sadly that is a can of worms for me :exhausted i am not natively Arabic speaking. Allah is said to have sent a messenger to every nation in its own tongue. The Quran differs in English. Also it seams to be in the wrong order, not in the same as Allah would have revealed making it even harder for me to fully understand. I also find some bits that are untranslated and I have been unable to translate maybe because my native language is not arabic.
So i normally try to keep these things far from me full knowing Allah knows better than all of us.

And this has now gone way of the thread, please first poster and Allah forgive me for my rudeness.

This is very easy, no?

no :exhausted see above

May Allah bless and guide you to make easy for others knowing His truth

[Ramadhan]

Is it easy though? When I read the quran I saw no real references to Gods Holy Spirit also known in the OT as the COMFORTER, SOURCE OF WISDOM, and source of Gods messages to Man either directly or through people and angels indirectly.
Jesus himself stated that the only sin which will not be forgiven is to Blaspheme against the Holy spirit so where is information in the quran about this?
I do not recall reading about Gods wonderful Holy spirit within that book

Peace and Blessings be with you from God

As I said before, anything in the bible that contradicts the Qur'an means it is not the truth and is a product of corruption done by early scribes, rabbis and priests.

[Al-manar]

Is it easy though? When I read the quran I saw no real references to Gods Holy Spirit also known in the OT as the COMFORTER, SOURCE OF WISDOM,

you know where the real problem is? it is when one reads the bible one see no real reference to Gods Holy Spirit as God, but rather “a quality belonging to God, one of his attributes,his active force etc...”

Jesus himself stated that the only sin which will not be forgiven is to Blaspheme against the Holy spirit

If meant by the spirit God's active force and not God himself ,no Muslim ever would blaspheme it , but if it is suggested to be a person co-equal and co-eternal
with the father (God) then let's blaspheme such spirit day and night.....

where is information in the quran about this?
I do not recall reading about Gods wonderful Holy spirit

Holy Quran [002:253] We have excelled some of the messengers over others. To some of them, Allah spoke (directly). He raised some to higher degrees (of honor) than others. We granted the manifest proofs to Jesus, son of Mary, and We strengthened him with the Holy Spirit


[005:110] (That day) Allah will say, “Oh Jesus, son of Mary! Recall the favors I bestowed upon you and your mother. I aided you with the Holy Spirit , and you spoke to mankind as an infant, and also as an adult. I taught you the art of writing, and the insight; and the Torah and the Gospel.


[016:102] Say, “The Holy Spirit brings the absolute truth from your Lord, in order to consolidate those who believe. It is the guidance and the glad tiding for the obedient.”


peace

[Al-manar]

I guess so but there are so many interpretations to who is Muslim and who is not. People of the Islamic religion are very divided as to who is Muslim.

that is a generalization ,with the exception of the triangle of Bigotry that seeds hatred,intolerance,violence (radical shia,radical salafis,radical sufis) the vast majority of Muslims are moderate .....

The Quran differs in English. I also find some bits that are untranslated and I have been unable to translate maybe because my native language is not arabic.

we native Arabic speakers are here to help you,if you wish...

So i normally try to keep these things far from me full knowing Allah knows better than all of us.
And this has now gone way of the thread, please first poster and Allah forgive me for my rudeness.

it wasn't rudeness your first post here... but odd and vague from a mulsim....

[freethinking]

you know where the real problem is? it is when one reads the bible one see no real reference to Gods Holy Spirit as God, but rather “a quality belonging to God, one of his attributes,his active force etc...”
Where is the spiritual understanding of this? God's holy Spirit comes to anyone who believs and asks God the Father for this support particularly in times of stress as the comforter, I get an instant response of profound and beautiful peace inside me.




If meant by the spirit God's active force and not God himself ,no Muslim ever would blaspheme it , but if it is suggested to be a person co-equal and co-eternal
with the father (God) then let's blaspheme such spirit day and night..... No real Christian would suggest the Holy Spirit is a person but rather part of the one True God. The Quarn does not understand this it seems and confuses many people who seek for genuine truth. Gods relationship with us is two way, God is not an impersonal God as the Quran implies many times giving us revelations but not listening to us. God Loves us and is The one true Awesome God of Wisdom Power and Love





Holy Quran [002:253] We have excelled some of the messengers over others. To some of them, Allah spoke (directly). He raised some to higher degrees (of honor) than others. We granted the manifest proofs to Jesus, son of Mary, and We strengthened him with the Holy Spirit


[005:110] (That day) Allah will say, “Oh Jesus, son of Mary! Recall the favors I bestowed upon you and your mother. I aided you with the Holy Spirit , and you spoke to mankind as an infant, and also as an adult. I taught you the art of writing, and the insight; and the Torah and the Gospel.


[016:102] Say, “The Holy Spirit brings the absolute truth from your Lord, in order to consolidate those who believe. It is the guidance and the glad tiding for the obedient.” Indeed yet elsewhere in the quran the emphasis is on a one way relationship From God to us in terms of how we live our lives and no emphaisis on the gift of free will



peace

Peace be upon you

[Steven John]

If meant by the spirit God's active force and not God himself ,no Muslim ever would blaspheme it , but if it is suggested to be a person co-equal and co-eternal
with the father (God) then let's blaspheme such spirit day and night.....

AoA,
from my reading of the bible i understand as you as say. The co-equal and co-eternal persons stuff is a confusing way to explain the narations of Yeshua (pbwh).

I am not very good with languages including Hebrew and Greek. I am not real sure the injeel versions in the bible of today would have been greek given the native language of "the authors" isuppose would have been palio Hebrew or Aramaic.

Even all of the english versions i have read from still show Yeshua (pbwh) submitting to G-d and teaching his followers to do the same.

I guess i would see the Holy spirit as G-ds good guidance to aspiring submitters.

May G-d guide us all to share and submit in peace.

[Steven John]

that is a generalization ,with the exception of the triangle of Bigotry that seeds hatred,intolerance,violence (radical shia,radical salafis,radical sufis) the vast majority of Muslims are moderate .....

AoA, i dont really understand what you posted here. My reflection was based largely on the community where i live. Culture and Islam are very blured. Many Brothers are unable to seperate them.

IE today after prayer a Turkish Muslim slurred a Bosnian desendant Brother as not being Muslim. Both of these men in my eye seek to serve Allah.

Lots of other cultures here clash in similar ways. Too often too little unity and too much power seeking.

It also does not help that some openly offer they are allowed to lie and steel, the Imam is an example, but as Islamic religion goes he can recite in Arabic so is before me in prayer. Mind you he also openly admits he has no idea what it means. Worth noting is the community is small and the jamart appointed him i guess based on his reciting in Arabic.

we native Arabic speakers are here to help you,if you wish...

May Allah bless you for this and i may seek some help from you provided if you run out of paitence with me we can keep friendship in peace. Or maybe it is better for me to keep away.

it wasn't rudeness your first post here... but odd and vague from a mulsim

I think i understand what you are saying here i was just seeking more sharing so i could grow. My place is not speak with authority, Allah ahs sent us messengers (pbut) they were given His authority. My place is to ask and maybe gently warn of what is written in truth of the messengers (pbut).

I praise and thank Allah for His goodness in your posting to me.

[Al-manar]

God's holy Spirit comes to anyone who believs and asks God the Father for this support particularly in times of stress as the comforter, I get an instant response of profound and beautiful peace inside me.

Such experience in not unique to christians , you would listen to many interesting stories of internal comfort after hardships ... by muslims , buddhists etc..... and that proves nothing.......

No real Christian would suggest the Holy Spirit is a person

the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. (THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA)

but rather part of the one True God.

God is indivisible being..

The Quarn does not understand this

I have heard that lots from christians, but the fact it is not the Quranic misunderstanding of the bible but rather the christian misunderstanding of the Quran....

God is not an impersonal God as the Quran implies many times giving us revelations but not listening to us

Holy Quran 2:186 When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me.

peace

[freethinking]

Such experience in not unique to christians , you would listen to many interesting stories of internal comfort after hardships ... by muslims , buddhists etc..... and that proves nothing.......
Yes but I am talking about an immeadiate comfort and profound peace during the period of stress, so rich that one Just praises God and carries on with life as if there is no stress




the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. (THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA)
I wish People would remeber I do not follow the catholic Church and the Catholic Church, although still the biggest Christian Church is in decline, whilst at the same time Charismatic Churches are increasing exponentially



God is indivisible being..
How do you know this for sure? God is Supremly Supernatural, and can do anything. how do you explain the Holy Spirit of God in this respect?




I have heard that lots from christians, but the fact it is not the Quranic misunderstanding of the bible but rather the christian misunderstanding of the Quran....
The reason I suggested quranic understanding is because I did not see any clear explantion in the quran of how to fight against spiritual evil, whereas the Bible makes this clear from me of how to access the holy spirit and to put on the breastplate of righteousness and the sword of Truth for example



Holy Quran 2:186 When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me.
Not quite the same as " ask and you shall receive" or "if you ask my Father anything in my name you can move mountains" Also it does not elaborate or even confirm the Gifts of the Holy Ghost. prophesy, healing, teaching and casting out demons for example.

peace

Blessing to you

[Al-manar]

Yes but I am talking about an immeadiate comfort and profound peace during the period of stress, so rich that one Just praises God and carries on with life as if there is no stress

yes ... yes

you just repeat the same idea with different words.....

How many non-christians who would tell you the same exact experience? how many would tell you about their wonderful experience with the spirit of God being with them ,supporting them in stress......

Have you ever met born again muslims? Have you ever met born again buddhists?

May I tell you how many times I felt the spirit of Allah supporting me inside and outside my country of origin? I can tell you my personal experiences ,which is amazing and could be used as a material of preaching....

but that is not my style , emotions not only could be misleading in the arena of religions but the other arenas too.... your emotions could lead you to choose the wrong religion ,and the wrong woman as well..........



more to post later....................

peace

[freethinking]

my pace from ther holy Spirit is Spiritual not emotional and I am not religious but in a Spiritual relationship with God

Bles you

[Al-manar]

I think i understand what you are saying here i was just seeking more sharing so i could grow. My place is not speak with authority, Allah ahs sent us messengers (pbut) they were given His authority. My place is to ask and maybe gently warn of what is written in truth of the messengers (pbut).

.

may be you have not much knowledge in the arena of bible vs Quran ,but your words are wise ... all my respect for you

and don't be depressed due to the harsh treatment of some muslims towards other muslims from other methodologies ... just begin with yourself and show other muslims your tolerance and forgiveness .......

collecting the whole muslims into one methodology ,is like a dream of collecting the world into one religion !!
Allah created the humans with free will, and that leads logically to their differing in understanding and beliefs ...

I would finish with a word from the infamous reformer Imam Rashid Reda(may Allah bless his soul) ... he calls all muslims from differing methodologies ..
(let's cooperate of what we agree on, and forgive each others of the matters we disagree on).....

"نتعاون فيما اتفقنا عليه، ويعذر بعضنا بعضا فيما اختلفنا فيه"

I am not religious .

I think you don't appreciate yourself well....

I find you religious ... someone coming to Islamic board to share muslims with his good news ,must be a good christians ,religious even if he doesn't go to the church... ....

I'm in a Spiritual relationship with God.

you know G.Bush? he is the same a christian,having a Spiritual relationship with God...

you know what was the fruit of such relationship? ask Bush who told him to invade Iraq killing men, women,children intentionally..

Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East.....

you may claim that he isn't a true christian etc....

but that doesn't matter .... my point is well established:

what a person consider a Spiritual relationship with God , may be viewed by another as a Spiritual relationship with demonic powers ....

The reason I suggested quranic understanding is because I did not see any clear explantion in the quran of how to fight against spiritual evil. .

I doubt you ever read the Quran fully

How do you know this for sure? God is Supremly Supernatural, and can do anything. .

God can do anything ,but there are things he won't do (though able to) eg;

can God commit suicide? I wouldn't say he can't !

but he won't ,cause he said about himself that he is eternal..

now could the supernatural almighty be a triune? yes he could , but if he was triune ,he would be any other trinity system but not the christian one....

in other words God could be triune, dual etc.... but the system has to be consistent with his attributes ...... the trinity as the christians suggest , appears in self-contradictory ,inconsistent formula....

in a word: our issue with the trinity as muslims should be not whether God can be trinity or not, but rather Is he trinity or not....

[freethinking]

in regard to George Bush I do not know if he was in commumion with God or not but I do know that the Bible does have differnt duties for Kings and national leaders.
As for me when I say I am not religious I do mean I am not ritualistic and repetitve with God. It is a beautiful rich two way relationship
that inclides me asking God questions and Getting answers from God sometimes immediatlety and sometimes months or even years later but when it is from God, it is always given to me in peace with absolutly no ambiguities and no room for doubt or argument. It is Pure Truth as no other can give.
It is also God spiritually transforming me from the inside out to the stage now where I know I cannot sin unless I very consciously choose to rebel against God in my heart. I have began to truely know and Love God. GOD IS LOVE

Its a wonderful Glorious Rich and amazing life for me now, I feel wonderfully blessed.

I have realised the amazing miricles written in the scriptures are every bit as applicible today as they were then.

God bless you to have this beautiful relationship

[Woodrow]

Is it easy though? When I read the quran I saw no real references to Gods Holy Spirit also known in the OT as the COMFORTER, SOURCE OF WISDOM, and source of Gods messages to Man either directly or through people and angels indirectly.
Jesus himself stated that the only sin which will not be forgiven is to Blaspheme against the Holy spirit so where is information in the quran about this?
I do not recall reading about Gods wonderful Holy spirit within that book

Peace and Blessings be with you from God

Peace Freethinking,

You will not read about the Holy Spirit in the Qur'an, because the Holy Spirit as a being or entity does not exist. This was a later concept of Christian and was not a belief of the early Christians. The Holy Spirit as a being first became a Christian Belief in Christianity at the Council of Nicea. Many early Christians practiced Aranism, but were overcome by the Catholic Church at the Council of Constaninople and their beliefs destroyed.

Arianism

Arianism is the name given to an anti-Trinitarian belief system taught by Arius, an elder in the Alexandrian church, in the early fourth century AD. Arius affirmed the uniqueness of God and denied the complete divinity of the Son (Christ). He taught instead that Christ was a created and changeable being, who, while superior to humans, is not of the same order as the one God.

Arius and Arianism were condemned at the famous Council of Nicea in 325 AD, which proclaimed that the Son was of "the same substance" as the Father. After Constantine's death, however, Arianism flourished again for some decades and almost overcame the Nicene party. Arianism was finally condemned at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD.

SOURCE: http://www.religionfacts.com/christi...fs/trinity.htm

[Predator]

Peace Freethinking,

You will not read about the Holy Spirit in the Qur'an, because the Holy Spirit as a being or entity does not exist.

The Holy Spirit is an entity in Islam and it is Angel Gabriel

http://muslim-responses.com/The_Holy...irit_in_Islam_

[Woodrow]

The Holy Spirit is an entity in Islam and it is Angel Gabriel

http://muslim-responses.com/The_Holy...irit_in_Islam_

:sl: Akhi,

That is true.

Jazakallah Khayr for bringing that up. It is Jibril Esa(as) was speaking of, which later was interpreted by the Council of Constantinople as being the third person of God. A Roman Catholic concept, based on who knows for certain, and forced upon the Chrtistian populace as truth. All Biblical Books that did not support or could not be interpreted to support the Trinity were banned as being gnostic or heretical.

But the meaning of Holy Spirit as understood by Christians does not exist according to what was revealed to us and is not part of what is in the Qur'an.

[Al-manar]

peace


I think there is one element we missed here in such Discussion.... it is very important and crucial

It is what has the Old Testament to say ,regarding the spirit ?

we have 2 things to talk about:

1- the spirit of God .

2- the life-giving spirit of God.

It seems that the two are not identical according to the old testament

Genesis 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

(Job xii. 10). Through His spirit all living things are created; and when He withdraws it they perish

Such Spirit is called (the breath) ,and all creatures live only through such breath(spirit) given by God


this exact same term (breath) is used in the Quran:

Holy Quran 15:29 "When I have fashioned him (Adam) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him


Note, Jesus is a Spirit proceeding from God,but it refers here to the giving life spirit or the power giving spirit?

I suggest ,according to the context ,it is the first...


what is that (breath) responsible for life?
The Quran would say , it is a secret and no human whatever scientific knowledge may have,would ever able to understand what is that spirit that gives life to living creatures...

17:85 They ask thee concerning the Spirit . Say: "from my Lord's matter, : of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"


The next term is God's spirit aka the holy spirit.....
It is not such giving life spirit but the one God pours out His own spirit upon all whom He has chosen to execute His will and behests, and this spirit imbues them with higher reason and powers, making them capable of heroic speech and action

Its work according to the Old Testament:

1- rests upon man (Isa. xi. 2, xlii. 1); it surrounds him like a garment (Judges vi. 34; II Chron. xxiv. 20); it falls upon him and holds him like a hand (Ezek. xi. 5, xxxvii. 1).

2- It may also be taken away from the chosen one and transferred to some one else (Num. xi. 17).

3- It may enter into man and speak with his voice (II Sam. xxiii. 2; Ezek. ii. 2; comp. Jer. x. 14).

4- The prophet sees and hears by means of the spirit (Num. xxiv. 2; I Sam. x. 6; II Sam. xxiii. 2; Isa. xlii. 1; Zech. vii. 12).

5- The Messianic passage in Joel ii. 28-29, to which special significance was subsequently attached, is characteristic of the view regarding the nature of the spirit: "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit."


6- It is a tool used by God to give inspiration and prophecies,as all the Prophets spoke "in the Holy Spirit"; and the most characteristic sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit is the gift of prophecy, in the sense that the person upon whom it rests beholds the past and the future.


To sum up ,the holy spirit according to the Old Testament is a special power God sends to those who desreve it, supporting,inspiring them .....

Gabriel in the old testament?

the angel who was sent to Daniel (8:16) to explain the vision of the ram and the he-goat, and to communicate the prediction of the seventy weeks (Dan. 9:21-27)


Daniel (8:16) While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice from the Ulai calling, "Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision."

So Gabriel is not viewed clearly as the holy spirit in the old testament....


well, we have compared before (the giving life spirit) according to the old testament and the Quran ,and we found out that they are identical ....

and we visited the term (spirit of God aka holy spirit) in the old testament .......

now let's visit the term in the Quran :


Holy Quran 2:87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

016.102
YUSUFALI: Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.


002.097
Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-


The holy spirit , according to the Quran, without doubt a reference to Gabriel......


When the holy spirit sends a spirit?

yes ,it used to mean an angel sending inspiration to a human

16:2 He doth send down His angels with inspiration (Rauh ,spirit) of His Command, to such of His servants as He pleaseth, (saying): "Warn (Man) that there is no god but I: so do your duty unto Me."


to sum up the comparative point: the old testament describes the activities of the holy spirit the same Quranic way .... but nothing there describing the medium that provides such power....


(Originally Posted by woodrow) the meaning of Holy Spirit as understood by Christians does not exist according to what was revealed to us and is not part of what is in the Qur'an.




The christian concept of the holy spirit is one in a list of misinterpretations and misapplications of the the old testament...

Christians didn't invent the concept but developed its meaning the wrong way ...the same way of the term (king messiah) and how they developed it , also the (Man- God) concept it has a back ground in the old Testament


for example the following text

Genesis 18
1And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him.(B) When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth


suchtext (and others) has prepeared the mentalities of some Jews to accept the idea (God was incarnated) .....

jews before christianity who would not understand the text as incarnation of God... but the text would seduce others to accept the idea and develope it...

in sum , christians didn't invent the concept of the holy spirit(eg, borrowing it from paganism) but along with some other Old Testament items ,it has been developed from a power to the giver of such power......... in other ways they exaggerated and gone to the extreme with mis-using specific terms.....

the same way they have developed the idea of the powerful messiah king who would rule the world ,to the messiah king who would not only rule the world but heaven as well !.....

If one sincerely wants to get solutions to the New testament puzzles,one should consult the old testament and it has the keys..... unlike those who would approach the topic with (the pagan influence on christianity) approach , I would suggest another approach ( christianity is a mis-interpreatation of some corrupted text ,the old testament)......

It is a corruption based on another older corruption..........

[Al-manar]

I have just verified the post and I think I missed typing one interesting point related to the topic

compare the following narrations:

Narrated Albukhari: the prophet was asked; how do you recieve the the revelation? and he answered
Sometimes the wahy (the revelation) came in the form of the ringing sound of a big bell (salsalatul jars). and This type of revelation is the hardest of all and when I have grasped what is revealed this condition passes away.and sometimes the angel comes in the form of a man talks to me and teaches me..
Aisha(may Allah bless her soul) says: I saw the Prophet receiving revelation on a very cold day and noticed that the sweat was dropping from his forehead. This condition lasted till the revelation was over.


compared with:

the jewish encyclopedia while talking about the holy spirit tells:


As early as Ezek. iii. 12 it is stated, "the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing," the expression "behind me" characterizing the unusual nature of the noise. The Shekinah (the holy spirit) made a noise before Samson like a bell (Soṭah 9b, below). When the Holy Spirit was resting upon him, his hair gave forth a sound like a bell, which could be heard from afar. It imbued him with such strength that he could uproot two mountains and rub them together like pebbles, and could cover leagues at one step (ib. 17b; Lev. R. viii. 2).


Have you noticed the similarities?!

[Steven John]

AoA.
I had considered that Christians of the books would see the Holy Spirit as Allah guidance and support.
With the exception the Christian G-d never misleads and creates opportunity for people to increase in sin.
Christians would see the latter as guidance and support of Shatan.

May Allah guide us all to His truth