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Uthman
04-11-2010, 02:46 PM
France is one of several European countries considering a ban on the Islamic veil, and some restrictions on the niqab could become law within weeks. Claire Bolderson reports on how the debate plays into a broader struggle over French identity.

In a small park at the back of a housing estate in Avignon, Kenza Drider, 31, races around a scruffy tennis court giggling and shouting encouragement to her opponent as she swings her racket at the ball.

It is just a knock-about game and would be unremarkable, except that Kenza Drider is a very unusual sight.

Her plain blue dress reaches to the ground. On top of it, covering her hair and shoulders, is a voluminous, long grey shawl.

And, most striking of all, over her face she wears a piece of black cloth - a niqab - that conceals everything except her deep brown eyes.

To me, the full veil, the covered face, it's a woman in a portable coffin
Andre Gerin
Communist MP


Mrs Drider, born in France to Moroccan immigrant parents, is one of the few Muslim women in France who wear the niqab. The official count puts the number at no more than 2,000 in a Muslim population of well over five million.

But over the past year, they have become the focus of an intense debate about Muslim integration and what it means to be French.

A parliamentary commission has recommended that all face coverings be banned when people are using public services like welfare offices, hospitals and transport, though not in the street.

And although the government has been advised that a full ban might not be legal, it is planning to go ahead with legislation that would impose restrictions on the niqab within weeks.

'Portable coffin'


"Why should we find ourselves returning to medieval traditions?" asks Andre Gerin, the Communist member of parliament who chaired the parliamentary commission.

It's not that they [foreigners] don't want to integrate, it's that the state doesn't want to integrate them
Kenza Drider
French Muslim who wears the veil


"To me, the full veil, the covered face, it's a woman in a portable coffin."

It was Mr Gerin who first started speaking openly about banning the veil when, as mayor of a suburb of Lyon, he says he noticed more and more women wearing it.

And he is convinced they are doing it at the behest of what he calls fundamentalists.

"These women are controlled," the MP says.

Kenza Drider scoffs at any such notion.

Relaxing on a bench in the park in Avignon, the mother of four young children explains how she bought her niqab nearly 11 years ago and did not tell her husband until she put it on to go out shopping with him one day.

"He knew very well it wasn't up to him whether I went out like that," she says, recalling that he merely said "OK, let's go", and she has worn the niqab ever since.

And she says that for women who wear the niqab in France, the majority of them French-born and many of them converts to Islam, "it's a personal decision, it's their freedom" to do as they wish.

Secular tradition


But the arguments against the niqab are not just based on feminism and the status of women.

She who hides her face is in a position superior to mine - she sees me but she refuses to reciprocate
Elizabeth Badinter
Feminist campaigner


The niqab, says leading feminist philosopher Elizabeth Badinter "is totally contrary to the three principles of the French Republic".

Those principles - liberty, equality, fraternity - can be seen written or carved on the front of every French town hall.

By hiding your face, Mrs Badinter explains as she sips a small black coffee in her elegant apartment in Paris, you breach the principle of equality.

"She who hides her face is in a position superior to mine," she says. "She sees me but she refuses to reciprocate."

Then there is the strongly guarded idea of secularism in France, the absolute separation of religion and the state rooted in the 1789 revolution and enshrined in a century-old law.

"You can have whatever religion you wish," says Mrs Badinter, "but it stays in the private sphere."

The problem is that some French Muslims see that not only as a way of dismissing their religion but also of ignoring their presence in France.

'Freedom of conscience'


The city suburbs with high populations of Muslims of North African descent have unemployment rates far above the national average. Educational achievement is generally lower in those areas and poverty is a real problem.

For the foreigners who come to France, according to Kenza Drider, "it's not that they don't want to integrate, it's that the state doesn't want to integrate them - there's a big difference".

She, like many Muslims, accuses the government of failing to address the social and economic problems the newcomers face.

And she has a message for the members of parliament who want to stop her wearing her veil in certain public places. She will not comply.

"The MPs who talk about liberty, equality and fraternity don't really understand the French Republic," she says back at her apartment in Avignon where, with only family and other women present, she removes the niqab and sets about making dinner for her children.

"Liberty means freedom of conscience, of expression," she says. "Equality means not judging the foreigner and fraternity means the support of French people for a French citizen."

Her words are a sign of the growing challenge to the long established values and principles of France as more and more Muslims put down roots in the country. The niqab is only the visible indication of a struggle to define what it means to be French.

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Banu_Hashim
04-11-2010, 10:26 PM
These french politicians are hypocrites.
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Supreme
04-11-2010, 11:20 PM
It's a vote winner. It's a pretty useless law, and one that has very little mainstream opposition- most Muslim women don't wear the Niqab in France anyway, and despite it being rather different and culturally indifferent, it's a powerful symbol of clothing that goes against Western ideals, such as freedom, integration, co-existence and especially feminism. All that, and many Frenchies would like to see the back of it. It's a beautiful card played by Sarkozy in terms of winning votes, and the man has to be admired for that side of his political genius. Nevertheless, this is going against Western ideals as well, and all it boils down to, is whose rights are valued more- that of the secularists/feminists or that of religious theists? Secularists more often than not win, and I have no doubt it will be the same in this case.
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Banu_Hashim
04-11-2010, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
and despite it being rather different and culturally indifferent, it's a powerful symbol of clothing that goes against Western ideals, such as freedom, integration, co-existence and especially feminism.
And the western culture of displaying one's self practically naked on the streets, some one else's husband lusting over your wife, demanding to see one's beauty is feedom and equality? France's politicans are disgusting. They have no decency, none at all.

The hijaab and the niqaab are both are a symbol of piety and having taqwa (consciousness of Allah (SWT)). I commend my Muslim sisters in France who are noble and brave enough to continue to wear their hijaab!
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Supreme
04-12-2010, 12:12 AM
And the western culture of displaying one's self practically naked on the streets, some one else's husband lusting over your wife, demanding to see one's beauty is feedom and equality? France's politicans are disgusting. They have no decency, none at all.
What a stupid assessment of Western culture! Seriously, do you derive your information regarding the West from Eastenders episodes and porno flicks? Because I cannot honestly for the life of me think of any other place where you may have gotten such stupid ideas. I don't know of a single female who dresses practically naked, and I know a lot of females; nor do I know of any married couple who have had their marriage broken down by an affair. Their have been other breakdowns in marriages, but that was down to finances, indifferences and loss of magic than affairs. You are using extremes, presumably without yourself knowing what you are talking about.
The hijaab and the niqaab are both are a symbol of piety and having taqwa (consciousness of Allah (SWT)). I commend my Muslim sisters in France who are noble and brave enough to continue to wear their hijaab!
What the Niqab and Hijab stand for is not in dispute here. The reasons for their ban, and the support of the French people for it, is. Also, I would hardly call wearing a piece of clothing in a nation where you are currently permitted to do so 'brave'.
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Banu_Hashim
04-12-2010, 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by Supreme
What a stupid assessment of Western culture! Seriously, do you derive your information regarding the West from Eastenders episodes and porno flicks? Because I cannot honestly for the life of me think of any other place where you may have gotten such stupid ideas. I don't know of a single female who dresses practically naked, and I know a lot of females; nor do I know of any married couple who have had their marriage broken down by an affair. Their have been other breakdowns in marriages, but that was down to finances, indifferences and loss of magic than affairs. You are using extremes, presumably without yourself knowing what you are talking about.


What the Niqab and Hijab stand for is not in dispute here. The reasons for their ban, and the support of the French people for it, is. Also, I would hardly call wearing a piece of clothing in a nation where you are currently permitted to do so 'brave'.
Simple observation of society around me. I've been born and grown up in western so sadly yes I do know what I'm talking about. It's normal to wear a mini skirt and... (its not necessary to continue) and yet its strange to wear an abaya and scarf. You can protest all you want but at the end of the day that's how western society works.

Unless you yourself wear a hijaab or have close family members who do I wouldn't expect you to know.
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جوري
04-12-2010, 12:44 AM
I actually agree with this witch's line


She who hides her face is in a position superior to mine - she sees me but she refuses to reciprocate

and I as the article previously shared here:
http://www.tressugar.com/Men-More-At...Winter-2154923

suggests ''
Researchers believe that the rarity of bare skin being displayed in the Winter makes it more alluring.''

those who take off their clothes in fact demean themselves and put themselves in the inferior position.. they can't possibly expect that others should agree to the ideals of cheapness, *****dom and the pursuit of cheap lust just because they deem that is should reign supreme!

french ideals are those of naked animals wildly copulating on the streets and they wish for everyone to be an animal along with them or get out.. I say those seem like fighting words to me and I think the Muslim world should push back!

:w:
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Pygoscelis
04-12-2010, 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
and I as the article previously shared here:
http://www.tressugar.com/Men-More-At...Winter-2154923

suggests ''[/I]Researchers believe that the rarity of bare skin being displayed in the Winter makes it more alluring.''
This hits the nail on the head. It is the rarity that does it. It is the taboo. Nudists are nowhere near as sexualized as you may imagine. It is the shock value and taboo of nudity that makes it so alluring to non-nudist men. And I would hazard to guess that the same effect would happen to a larger extreme in a society where the norm is for women to cover up their hair and faces. A bare face and hair would suddenly be seen as sexualized.

It is a continuum with "decency"/taboo on one side and "freedom"/"indecency" on the other. A continuum that some people fail to appreciate. The same "repression" the western christian sees in the muslim woman wearing a veil, the nudist sees in the christian woman not going topless on a hot day. And you can see that same christian woman shocked at both the muslim woman and the nudist woman, arguing from both sides at the same time.

Between the muslim woman and nudist women I doubt any meaningful conversation could be had, as they are just too far apart. Mere nudity need not be remotely sexualized, but I doubt a devout muslim would ever be able to see or accept that. And muslim women really don't feel repressed when wearing the niqab or even burqa, but I doubt the nudist woman could ever be able to see or accept that. It would be fascinating to see people of these two extremes (nudist and muslim)have a debate/conversation, each with so many misconceptions about the other, but I doubt we'll ever see it.
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جوري
04-12-2010, 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This hits the nail on the head. It is the rarity that does it. It is the taboo. Nudists are nowhere near as sexualized as you may imagine. It is the shock value and taboo of nudity that makes it so alluring to non-nudist men. And I would hazard to guess that the same effect would happen to a larger extreme in a society where the norm is for women to cover up their hair and faces. A bare face and hair would suddenly be seen as sexualized.

It is a continuum with "decency"/taboo on one side and "freedom"/"indecency" on the other. A continuum that some people fail to appreciate. The same "repression" the western christian sees in the muslim woman wearing a veil, the nudist sees in the christian woman not going topless on a hot day. And you can see that same christian woman shocked at both the muslim woman and the nudist woman, arguing from both sides at the same time.

Between the muslim woman and nudist women I doubt any meaningful conversation could be had, as they are just too far apart. Mere nudity need not be remotely sexualized, but I doubt a devout muslim would ever be able to see or accept that. And muslim women really don't feel repressed when wearing the niqab or even burqa, but I doubt the nudist woman could ever be able to see or accept that. It would be fascinating to see people of these two extremes (nudist and muslim)have a debate/conversation, each with so many misconceptions about the other, but I doubt we'll ever see it.

I have never seen nudity out in nature as anything more than attention seeking slaps of meat with no self-respect and I am actually accustomed to seeing naked people daily in a hospital setting (of course there they can't help it) and surprisingly many want their modesty respected perhaps it is a mere fear of being probed by cold metal instruments who knows..perhaps also the fact that I am of the female gender disables me from finding anyvalue sexualized or otherwise on any woman that prefers to bare her body.. there are times when I am frankly disgusted by someone old and obese wearing inappropriately short clothes and get the urge to yell out 'just because they make them in your size doesn't mean you have to go out and wear them' but they maybe in their mind find that as a sign of liberation (I don't know).. frankly when it comes to summer time, if you can cover the parts that are 'interesting' and withstand it, then you can cover the entire subject and withstand just as well it is about breathable material and choice colors than anything. In the work field folks who dress provocatively aren't taken seriously & are usually limited to 'working class' women .. I find the higher education a woman has the more sensible the colors and clothes become ....
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Supreme
04-12-2010, 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
Simple observation of society around me. I've been born and grown up in western so sadly yes I do know what I'm talking about. It's normal to wear a mini skirt and... (its not necessary to continue) and yet its strange to wear an abaya and scarf. You can protest all you want but at the end of the day that's how western society works.

Unless you yourself wear a hijaab or have close family members who do I wouldn't expect you to know.
No, you seem to have conjured up an imaginary dichotomy between two extremes- either a woman is wearing a fully covered dress, or she is wearing a mini skirt. There is MUCH ground to be covered between those two extremes. None of my female friends ever wear a mini skirt or a hijab- they dress modestly and sensibly, and they're all the better for it. They wear clothes that doesn't have to do with them being viewed as sex objects, like a niqab or a mini skirt might.
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جوري
04-12-2010, 03:07 PM
how does niqab or hijab turn you into a 'sex object'?

that is new lol
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Banu_Hashim
04-12-2010, 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
No, you seem to have conjured up an imaginary dichotomy between two extremes- either a woman is wearing a fully covered dress, or she is wearing a mini skirt. There is MUCH ground to be covered between those two extremes. None of my female friends ever wear a mini skirt or a hijab- they dress modestly and sensibly, and they're all the better for it. They wear clothes that doesn't have to do with them being viewed as sex objects, like a niqab or a mini skirt might.
Just by you saying "no" is supposed to nullify me?

If your 'female friends' dont wear low cut tops and dress modestly then good for them. In Islam, the hijab (for women) is covering everything bar the face and hands with loose fitting so as not to make the outline of the figure noticeable. Any outline of a woman will make a man interested, Muslim or not. That's a fact of life.

The niqab is the additional covering of the face, although I'm sure you knew that.

And how on earth is the niqab a "sex object"?
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Supreme
04-12-2010, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
how does niqab or hijab turn you into a 'sex object'?

that is new lol
Tell me, what's the rationale for wearing the niqab in the first place, if not that the female body is regarded as a sex object (that needs to be hidden from view)?
If your 'female friends' dont wear low cut tops and dress modestly then good for them. In Islam, the hijab (for women) is covering everything bar the face and hands with loose fitting so as not to make the outline of the figure noticeable. Any outline of a woman will make a man interested, Muslim or not. That's a fact of life.
I understand that. What I cannot see, and am mystified by, is the blame of lust Islam puts on women. By wearing the Niqab, you're essentially saying it's the woman's fault for being attractive, and not the man's fault for his own thoughts, and I just cannot relate to that system of thought. There's more of an emphasis on 'How dare that woman be attractive!' then there is 'How dare that man not have any control over his own lust infested thoughts!'
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جوري
04-12-2010, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
Tell me, what's the rationale for wearing the niqab in the first place, if not that the female body is regarded as a sex object (that needs to be hidden from view)?
!'
The rationale always and has been to dedicate ones life to God forsaking all the pleasures of this world.. even more so for a niqabi for she isn't only fighting a world which is hell bent on labeling her, family members who feel that a niqab is unnecessary if you can accomplish your modesty with regular hijab and her own-self for we all have great desire, and especially so in the spring of our life.. so frankly I have no idea where you get the far fetched idea that to be a niqabbi is to be sexualized .. I will be waiting however for you to tie it for us nicely in a way that hopefully won't elicit another hearty guffaw!

all the best
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-13-2010, 07:52 AM
Tell me, what's the rationale for wearing the niqab in the first place, if not that the female body is regarded as a sex object (that needs to be hidden from view)?
you can say what you want and act as "civilized" as you want, but we all know that men love women, and nothing will cause him to respect her body without proper precautions. no matter what you say and no matter how much you deny it, men will always drool over flesh. end of. isn't it that women are used in commercials to advertise products. now tell me, why should a woman have to put up with and be a door mat to such disgusting disrespect?

wherever you got the idea women are veiled because they are objects, was no further from your own media and perverted society.


other than not wanting to get used by ill mannered and so-called civilized men, ever considered that maybe she wants to keep something about herself to her own self? or maybe wants to get extra merits/rewards? ahh no, now why would that be relevant.


I understand that. What I cannot see, and am mystified by, is the blame of lust Islam puts on women.
i could post verses from the bible concerning women in the respect that you spoke about, but not only would be it be considered against forum rules, but probably considered offensive as-well!!!


There's more of an emphasis on 'How dare that woman be attractive!' then there is 'How dare that man not have any control over his own lust infested thoughts!'
there is you half-wit. pity people people like you are too arrogant to accept it and are too busy cherry picking.
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Uthman
04-13-2010, 08:06 AM
Highly recommended: The niqab, fact v fiction
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Supreme
04-13-2010, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
you can say what you want and act as "civilized" as you want, but we all know that men love women, and nothing will cause him to respect her body without proper precautions. no matter what you say and no matter how much you deny it, men will always drool over flesh. end of. isn't it that women are used in commercials to advertise products. now tell me, why should a woman have to put up with and be a door mat to such disgusting disrespect?

wherever you got the idea women are veiled because they are objects, was no further from your own media and perverted society.


other than not wanting to get used by ill mannered and so-called civilized men, ever considered that maybe she wants to keep something about herself to her own self? or maybe wants to get extra merits/rewards? ahh no, now why would that be relevant.



i could post verses from the bible concerning women in the respect that you spoke about, but not only would be it be considered against forum rules, but probably considered offensive as-well!!!



there is you half-wit. pity people people like you are too arrogant to accept it and are too busy cherry picking.
Sit down. Relax. Take a deep breath.
See, that's the problem with people who identify so strongly with a given world view that any criticism of that ideology is perceived as a personal attack. I don't know you. We're talking about cultural patterns here.
All I'm saying is that you don't get rid of the fetishistic and immature sexualization of the female body by demanding that it needs to be completely covered up - quite the contrary. That practice is based on the same rationale as its diametrical opposite, whether individual practitioners are aware of it or not. The message is this: "female bodies [as opposed to male ones] are inherently sexual - and therefore, we need to limit access to it, lest some man takes what is not his". Chances are that no one in your family has ever really thought about it that much - it's just "the way things are done". Judging by your replies, you certainly haven't thought about it. Perhaps it's about time you started to do so, it might just spare us so many needless feelings of resentment and offended personal dignity.
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Banu_Hashim
04-13-2010, 03:30 PM
Firstly, you don't want personal attacks yet you presume to know what someone's family does or does not think? The hijaab and niqaab is not a cultural thing, it is a part of the religion of Islam. Stop deluding yourself please.

The female gender is created as a more physically beautified creation than man- that is a fact of life. You can try to argue on grounds of 'equality' but you can do that in your spare time with people you have nothing better to do. The function of the hijab is to obey God's commandment in what (or rather what not) may be shown in front of men who are not of relation.

Everything in shari'ah comes down to preserving society. The study of shari'ah is the work of Scholars and not laymen such as me and certainly not of those who really have no understanding of Islam whatsoever!

Your trouble is that you cannot see the world view from the Islamic perspective. If you do, then things will be a lot easier and perhaps you will see Islam is just and ultimately the truth. Your "modernised" world view is set and unchangeable yourself!
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Skavau
04-13-2010, 03:39 PM
The assumption of the niqaab as some sort of opposition and therefore bannable makes the unwelcome conclusion that passive resistance (even lawful, and harmless) to the order ought to be forbidden. There is no legitimate or moral reason to do this in a secular state that is supposed to recognise personal liberty. The action of quelling 'harmful' trends amongst the population that the order deems harmful is far more prevalant and consistent with totalitarian states.

A secular state exists in order to accomodate and provide haven for people of different cultures, religions, ethnicity and general backgrounds. The acts by France are unwelcome in the face of this.
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Skavau
04-13-2010, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ummu Safyaan
you can say what you want and act as "civilized" as you want, but we all know that men love women, and nothing will cause him to respect her body without proper precautions. no matter what you say and no matter how much you deny it, men will always drool over flesh. end of. isn't it that women are used in commercials to advertise products. now tell me, why should a woman have to put up with and be a door mat to such disgusting disrespect?
Nevermind your blatant assumptions of all men - women do not have to be a door mat to disrespect. A woman doe not have to 'sell' her body in questionable commericals. She does not have to show off new clothes in fashion commericals. She does not have to wear skimpy clothing and gain the attention of all nearby men. Why do you seem to believe that women in the west are conscripted into this?

Keep in mind also, that not every woman considers it unacceptable, degrading or shameful to bring attention to their looks. Not every woman shares your ideals of covering-up and shamefulness. You speak only for yourself when you make those claims.

wherever you got the idea women are veiled because they are objects, was no further from your own media and perverted society.
Actually, it is an observation of projection. Perhaps, some women cover up because they feel otherwise they will be considered nothing more than objects?
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cat eyes
04-13-2010, 04:43 PM
:sl: it has been proven that the three main parts of the woman that men look at is her face (if she is pretty to the persons eyes) her bossom and her hair..

so your non muslims can dress what ever way they see fit i bet there not even as beautiful as the muslim women i see anyway who cover there faces when they go out because they know well enough they will attract attention which they dont want.. so thats there own choice

Anyway the scholars differ over this. so far i have been highly respected wearing my jibab and hijab and i lower my gaze too so its enough for me right now.
:wa:
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جوري
04-13-2010, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Nevermind your blatant assumptions of all men - women do not have to be a door mat to disrespect. A woman doe not have to 'sell' her body in questionable commericals. She does not have to show off new clothes in fashion commericals. She does not have to wear skimpy clothing and gain the attention of all nearby men. Why do you seem to believe that women in the west are conscripted into this?
Perhaps on the account that, it is what the west projects itself to be cemented further by their obsession and unhealthy pre-occupation with the Islamic dress-code.. what other conclusion can there be?

Keep in mind also, that not every woman considers it unacceptable, degrading or shameful to bring attention to their looks. Not every woman shares your ideals of covering-up and shamefulness. You speak only for yourself when you make those claims.
And your point being? covering up has nothing to do with 'shamefulness' it is about respect! we all have the same bodies under-neath there is really no big surprise .. you don't need to strike a tent and charge admission for it!

Actually, it is an observation of projection. Perhaps, some women cover up because they feel otherwise they will be considered nothing more than objects?
Or perhaps they know that when they cover up it will force you to consider them as something else other than a sexualized object.. perhaps you should survey them before psychoanalyzing them?

all the best
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Supreme
04-13-2010, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
Firstly, you don't want personal attacks yet you presume to know what someone's family does or does not think? The hijaab and niqaab is not a cultural thing, it is a part of the religion of Islam. Stop deluding yourself please.
The Niqab is unquestionably cultural attire- of the pre Islamic Arabian culture, but invariably more important, the current Islamic culture.

The female gender is created as a more physically beautified creation than man- that is a fact of life. You can try to argue on grounds of 'equality' but you can do that in your spare time with people you have nothing better to do. The function of the hijab is to obey God's commandment in what (or rather what not) may be shown in front of men who are not of relation.
Women are more beautiful than men? Speak for yourself. I've seen women incredibly unattractive women and very beautiful men. It's no more a 'fact of life' than saying 'pizza is the tastiest food ever invented, period'.

Everything in shari'ah comes down to preserving society. The study of shari'ah is the work of Scholars and not laymen such as me and certainly not of those who really have no understanding of Islam whatsoever!
We are not discussing Sharia.

Your trouble is that you cannot see the world view from the Islamic perspective. If you do, then things will be a lot easier and perhaps you will see Islam is just and ultimately the truth. Your "modernised" world view is set and unchangeable yourself!
Of course I can see the world from an Islamic perspetive. That does not, however, mean I am unable to question parts of the faith.

Keep in mind also, that not every woman considers it unacceptable, degrading or shameful to bring attention to their looks. Not every woman shares your ideals of covering-up and shamefulness. You speak only for yourself when you make those claims.
Indeed. Not every woman thinks 'I am essentially a piece of flesh whose purpose is nothing other than sex so I have to cover myself up in an effort to have people take me seriously', and not only because such a view is erroneous- it is also downright sexist, and offensive. I am not saying that is what Muslim women think of themselves- I am pointing out the nonsensical argument that the Niqab is somehow less sexist or not as related to sex than other more revealing outfits, when it blatantly is.
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Banu_Hashim
04-13-2010, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Supreme
The Niqab is unquestionably cultural attire- of the pre Islamic Arabian culture, but invariably more important, the current Islamic culture.



Women are more beautiful than men? Speak for yourself. I've seen women incredibly unattractive women and very beautiful men. It's no more a 'fact of life' than saying 'pizza is the tastiest food ever invented, period'.



We are not discussing Sharia.



Of course I can see the world from an Islamic perspetive. That does not, however, mean I am unable to question parts of the faith.



Indeed. Not every woman thinks 'I am essentially a piece of flesh whose purpose is nothing other than sex so I have to cover myself up in an effort to have people take me seriously', and not only because such a view is erroneous- it is also downright sexist, and offensive. I am not saying that is what Muslim women think of themselves- I am pointing out the nonsensical argument that the Niqab is somehow less sexist or not as related to sex than other more revealing outfits, when it blatantly is.
Nope. Wrong. Look to the Tafsir (tabari) of ayah 33:59 of the Qur'an. The vast majority of classical scholars had the same opinion. Watch this. Orientalist websites are not a source of information on Islam!

I don't know where you get your half baked research from. Some experts in Tafsir mentioned what can be considered some ikhtilaaf (disagreement) amongst the scholars as to what is the minimum requirement, i.e. everything excluding the hands and face or everything including the hands and face but there is absolutely no doubt that it is a central part of the religion of Islam. There is unanimous concensus amongst the scholars that it (covering the face) is either obligatory or highly recommended from a religious point of view! No scholar will disagree with this. Past or present.

Actually everything in relation to Islam, like the hijab/niqab has a lot to do with Shariah. Islam = Shariah. Shariah = Islam. The two cannot be separated. Don't come to an Islamic forum and try to educate the Muslims about Islam from your "research".

Your questioning of the faith is basically leading you to your own conclusions about what is a part of Islam and what isn't. Islam is not a cultural thing we do on Sundays only. Remember this.

Your posts are becoming a joke now. The niqab is on the other end of the spectrum to the revealing outfits. I think you like to argue for the sake of arguing. Unfortunately in your case, you just end up making yourself look ridiculous.
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Pygoscelis
04-14-2010, 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
no matter what you say and no matter how much you deny it, men will always drool over flesh.
Especially if you emphasize the taboo. I would really enjoy a conversation with somebody of your mindset and a nudist, to whom nudity is not the least bit sexual.

isn't it that women are used in commercials to advertise products. now tell me, why should a woman have to put up with and be a door mat to such disgusting disrespect?
It is true that women are used in commercials sexually. It isn't the nudity that does it, its the suggestive language, gestures, and clothing. Ironically sometimes more clothing is more suggestive than less - lace and garters are more sexual than bare nudity.

i could post verses from the bible concerning women in the respect that you spoke about, but not only would be it be considered against forum rules, but probably considered offensive as-well!!!
Why do you think it would be against forum rules to post bible verses? So long as they are not taken out of context and actually reflect what is written in the bible, it isn't your fault if they offend modern sensibilities. No forum rule against that. There is a difference between attacking an ideology or idea and attacking a person. Exposing and attacking ideas is how proper debate works.

there is you half-wit. pity people people like you are too arrogant to accept it and are too busy cherry picking.
Ya, this is the attacking a person bit, and this actually IS against forum rules (and general civility).
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aamirsaab
04-14-2010, 11:21 AM
Kind reminder: Get back on topic folks.
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Banu_Hashim
04-14-2010, 12:14 PM
Na'am ustaadh.
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Ummu Sufyaan
04-14-2010, 12:23 PM
Sit down. Relax. Take a deep breath.
I am/was.

See, that's the problem with people who identify so strongly with a given world view that any criticism of that ideology is perceived as a personal attack. I don't know you. We're talking about cultural patterns here.
Despite the fact that the niqaab actually has a basis to it in the shariah. Nice try at turning the tables-though failed.
All I'm saying is that you don't get rid of the fetishistic and immature sexualization of the female body by demanding that it needs to be completely covered up - quite the contrary. That practice is based on the same rationale as its diametrical opposite, whether individual practitioners are aware of it or not. The message is this: "female bodies [as opposed to male ones] are inherently sexual - and therefore, we need to limit access to it, lest some man takes what is not his".
Are you going to learn how to comprehend or am I just wasting my time?

Chances are that no one in your family has ever really thought about it that much - it's just "the way things are done". Judging by your replies, you certainly haven't thought about it.
Judging by your own replies, you seem to be introducing irrelevant points in attempt to change the issue around and shift away from what actually being discussed. What’s the matter, been proved wrong? I empathize.

Perhaps it's about time you started to do so, it might just spare us so many needless feelings of resentment and offended personal dignity.
My my, your eloquence of speech certainly can’t help but make me wonder that your words are merely a reflection and acknowledgment of your own self. It certainly comes across that way.
Perhaps it’s about time you saved us of your wna be ego and attitude that seems to have gotten injured somewhere down track which you feel so compelled and try your utmost best to mend it by your constant arrogance and “know all attitude.”

Nevermind your blatant assumptions of all men - women do not have to be a door mat to disrespect.
Look, i’ll cut to the chase and try to explain it better.
The thing is about men-as we all know- is that their love for women is intoxicating, if you will. This isn’t an attempt to question their honor or degrade them in any way, but for the sake of getting my point across, for now, we will call it stating the obvious.

Im not saying that every guy is going to be attracted to every girl or that every girl thinks of herself as so high and mighty that she turns the head of every guy. This also does not imply that every girl who does dresses not so covering is doing it for the attention of men, or that it is shameful to show skin, or that every (Muslim) girl that chooses to dress long sleeved, etc does so because she is responsible for how a man behaves-she isn’t.

But the thing is that if a guy sees a woman dressing a certain way, he is going to make a judgment about her non-the-less. These things happen at an unconscious level. For example, dude x thinks dudette y may look stunning with...i dno that pair of jeans she’s got on. Another dudette walks by, and dude x thinks she looks just as stunning with that hair do.
An impression will form in a guy’s head whether he likes it or not, or whether he realizes or not. Bam, straight away an impression in his head has formed.

There’s 2 points I’m getting at here
1. Is that the hijab/covering prevents him from even thinking like this of her at all. In other words a woman shouldn’t have to put up with a guy looking at her merely to satisfy his natural instinct. It doesn’t matter how civilized a guy maybe, he is going to make these judgments about her based on her physical appearance namely. sure, most of the time it doesn’t go to the extent of sexual harassment, but at the same time i don’t quite understand why being desensitized to his perverted eyes is any better and is seen as dignifying the woman! Surely this can’t be acceptable either.

i *personally* don’t see why a girl should have to put up with this. It’s weird how you people think that Muslim men and Islam control Muslim women with the hijaab/niqaab, and yet are oblivious to the state that your own women are in. A woman dressing not so covering...well she’s played it right into his hands...to me, this is her submitting to him (since flesh/body shape, etc is something that a guy likes), ironically the same thing that people accuse Muslim men and Islam of doing and ironically the same thing that feminists (or jut women in general who don’t like the idea of covering up) are against-submitting to the man.

2. Lets discuss how this may affect the feelings of the women.
Women get jealous and you probably already know that some men are tapped in the head enough to use this against her/to his own advantage.
How do you think this will make a woman feel–how is this doing justice to her.

Moving away from jealously, How is this doing justice to her knowing that one moment a guy thinks she is the most amazing thing in the world and next moment another woman walks by, he “dumps” her and has his eyes fixed on another? Omg, who are you people kidding?

This is why i (and others) say that women who do dress not so covering, are sexualized because it is the girl that is getting the bad of this and the guy that is using it to his advantage-to satisfy a natural instinct. It’s not because that we think women are trash (we don’t) and It has nothing to do with being as ashamed of what people look like (please) or that attraction, etc is shameful...this is far beyond the truth. I guess it’s just that we are stating the obvious.

If you people are going to debate about this, you really need to understand this from the way that it is supposed to be understood, not jump to the most apparent conclusion, seriously.
You don’t explain fundamental biological principles using fundamental psychological principles...this is unheard of.


And interesting enough, if we look at the Islamic texts, we actually see that the same thing is applicable to the guy.
A man has guidelines as well as to what he can wear.In Islam, a mans chest is not compulsay for him to cover... BUT
It should be noted that if doing something permissible (i.e in this case, not covering) will result in some evil, then it is not allowed, because of the evil to which it leads.

A woman does not have to 'sell' her body in questionable commericals. She does not have to show off new clothes in fashion commericals. She does not have to wear skimpy clothing and gain the attention of all nearby men.
Why do you seem to believe that women in the west are conscripted into this?
I don’t believe so. I was simply illustrating the point that men love women who show flesh/dress not so covering, hence the reason why women are used in commercials ironically being the point that people like you are so adamant on trying convince people like me that women aren’t objects/objects of men’s desires.


Keep in mind also, that not every woman considers it unacceptable, degrading or shameful to bring attention to their looks. Not every woman shares your ideals of covering-up and shamefulness.
I never said that women cover because they feel it a shame to cover their looks. See above.

Ya, this is the attacking a person bit, and this actually IS against forum rules (and general civility).
Oh sure and what he’s implied with his posts are civil and non-offensive. You’re only kidding yourself.
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Pygoscelis
04-14-2010, 01:42 PM
This woman-as-victim mentality only re-emphasizes the gender bias inherent in Islam. If you are so extremely concerned with men not being able to control their lust for and judgments of women based on their appearances, why is the converse also not a concern? Why don't any muslim men wear burqas? Why are they not forced to shave their handsome beards? The only suggestion (not mandatory as you say) is that he doesn't go topless? Quite a disparity there. Does male lust matter that much more than female lust? And what about homosexual men looking at other men?

Oh sure and what he’s implied with his posts are civil and non-offensive. You’re only kidding yourself.
Again, there is a fundamental difference between attacking or criticizing an idea / worldview and attacking a person personally. You may find my views completely wrong or even offensive, but the moment you personalize it and start lashing out with personal attacks you have crossed the line from debate to assault/slander. Deal with ideas, not people.
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