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Al-Indunisiy
04-16-2010, 07:35 AM
:sl:

I was just browsing through the Internet and found this:
Saudi Arabia: Witchcraft and Sorcery Cases on the Rise
Cancel Death Sentences for “Witchcraft”

November 24, 2009
Other Material: Precarious Justice

Letter to HRH King Abdullah bin Abd al-’Aziz Al Saud on "Witchcraft" Case."Saudi courts are sanctioning a literal witch hunt by the religious police...The crime of ‘witchcraft' is being used against all sorts of behavior, with the cruel threat of state-sanctioned executions."
.Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director .

(Kuwait City) - The cassation court in Mecca should overturn the death sentence imposed on Ali Sabat by a lower court in Medina on November 9 for practicing witchcraft, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called on the Saudi government to cease its increasing use of charges of "witchcraft" which remains vaguely defined and arbitrarily used.

Ali Sabat's death sentence apparently resulted from advice and predictions he gave on Lebanese television. According to Saudi media, in addition to Sabat, Saudi religious police have arrested at least two others for witchcraft in the past month alone.

"Saudi courts are sanctioning a literal witch hunt by the religious police," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "The crime of ‘witchcraft' is being used against all sorts of behavior, with the cruel threat of state-sanctioned executions."

Religious police arrested Ali Sabat in his hotel room in Medina on May 7, 2008, where he was on pilgrimage before returning to his native Lebanon. Before his arrest, Sabat frequently gave advice on general life questions and predictions about the future on the Lebanese satellite television station Sheherazade, according to the Lebanese newspaper Al-Akhbar and the French newspaper Le Monde. These appearances are said to be the only evidence against Sabat.

Saudi newspaper Al-Madina reported on November 15 that a lower court in Jeddah started the trial of a Saudi man arrested by the religious police and said to have smuggled a book of witchcraft into the kingdom. On October 19, Saudi newspaper Okaz reported that the religious police in Ta'if had arrested for "sorcery" and "charlatanry" an Asian man who was accused of using supernatural powers to solve marital disputes and induce falling in love.

In March 2008, Human Rights Watch asked a high-ranking official in the Ministry of Justice to clarify the definition of the crime of witchcraft in Saudi Arabia and the evidence necessary for a court to prove such a crime. The official confirmed that no legal definition exists and could not clarify what evidence has probative value in witchcraft trials. Saudi Arabia has no penal code and in almost all cases gives judges the discretion to define acts they deem criminal and to set attendant punishments.

In February 2008, Human Rights Watch protested the 2006 "discretionary" conviction and sentencing to death for witchcraft of Fawza Falih, a Saudi citizen. Minister of Justice Abdullah Al al-Shaikh responded that Human Rights Watch had a preconceived Western notion of shari'a, but did not answer the organization's questions about Falih's arbitrary arrest, coerced confession, unfair trial, and wrongful conviction. She remains on death row in Quraiyat prison, close to the border with Jordan, and is reportedly in bad health.

November 10, Okaz reported that the Medina court had also issued the verdict for Sabat on a "discretionary" basis. Both Sabat and the Saudi man accused of smuggling books of witchcraft reportedly confessed to their "crimes." Sabat had no lawyer at trial and only confessed because interrogators told him he could go home to Lebanon if he did, according to May al-Khansa, his lawyer in Lebanon.

In another case, a Jeddah criminal court on October 8, 2006 convicted Eritrean national Muhammad Burhan for "charlatanry," based on a leather-bound personal phone booklet belonging to Burhan with writings in the Tigrinya alphabet used in Eritrea. Prosecutors classified the booklet as a "talisman" and the court accepted that as evidence, sentencing him to 20 months in prison and 300 lashes. No further evidence for the charge was introduced at trial. Burhan has since been deported, after serving more than double the time in prison to which the court had sentenced him.

On November 2, 2007, Saudi Arabia executed Mustafa Ibrahim for sorcery in Riyadh. Ibrahim, an Egyptian working as a pharmacist in the northern town of `Ar'ar, was found guilty of having tried "through sorcery" to separate a married couple, according to a Ministry of Interior statement.

"Saudi judges have harshly punished confessed "witches" for what at worst appears to be fraud, but may well be harmless acts," Whitson said. "Saudi judges should not have the power to end lives of persons at all, let alone those who have not physically harmed others."

In 2007, Saudi Arabia passed two laws restructuring judicial institutions, and in 2009 began implementing what it said was a comprehensive judicial reform under Minister of Justice Muhammad al-‘Isa, who was appointed in February 2009. However, Saudi Arabia has still not codified its criminal laws, and efforts to update the criminal procedure law, which lacks guarantees against forced confessions such as the right not to incriminate oneself, have not yet come to fruition.

Human Rights Watch opposes the use of the death penalty in all circumstances, due to its inherently cruel nature. International standards, for example as expressed in resolution 1984/50 of the UN Economic and Social Council, require all states that retain the death penalty to limit its imposition to the "most serious" crimes.

Saudi judges should overturn witchcraft convictions and free those arrested or convicted for witchcraft-related crimes, Human Rights Watch said. King Abdullah should urgently order the codification of Saudi criminal laws and ensure it comports with international human rights standards.
My concern is: Do the Saudi authority use the charge of 'witchcraft' arbitrarily? Can someone from KSA enlighten me on this. How could one be convicted of practicing witchcraft?
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Supreme
04-16-2010, 11:45 PM
What kind of ridiculous, scientifically backwards, completely inane society recognizes such laughable offenses as 'witchcraft'? Oh, it's Saudi Arabia. Good luck for any doting lawyers or scientists intending to work there. With this sort of pre-Medieval precedent the cultural norm, you'll need it.
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CosmicPathos
04-16-2010, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
What kind of ridiculous, scientifically backwards, completely inane society recognizes such laughable offenses as 'witchcraft'? Oh, it's Saudi Arabia. Good luck for any doting lawyers or scientists intending to work there. With this sort of pre-Medieval precedent the cultural norm, you'll need it.
what does science has to do with this? Science is not our god. Neither are scientists our gods. You are wrong if you thought so.
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جوري
04-17-2010, 12:35 AM
I was told indeed by folks returning from hajj that many youngens dabble in the dark arts in KSA.. hope they have better ways to combat this than mere arrests...

:w:
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CosmicPathos
04-17-2010, 01:51 AM
The dark arts are practiced and certainly sung about. Got to hear some satanist metal popping out of the Holy Land.
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'Abd Al-Maajid
04-17-2010, 04:20 AM
^ you listen to metal, satanic metal....
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CosmicPathos
04-17-2010, 04:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdulmajid
^ you listen to metal, satanic metal....
no i dont, astagfirullah. I meant that I found out that crap is there too.
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'Abd Al-Maajid
04-17-2010, 04:28 AM
Is Saudi Arab a holy land? I thought Palestine/Jerusalem was holy...:?
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CosmicPathos
04-17-2010, 04:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdulmajid
Is Saudi Arab a holy land? I thought Palestine/Jerusalem was holy...:?
Saudi Arabia is a country which includes the House of Allah and the places where our Prophet pbuh was born and the sand on which he stepped and the place where he is buried etc. I guess it makes it Holy? I dont mean Holy as in having some Divine powers. That would be shirk. By holy I meant something which has a high status and something which we revere.
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Karl
04-17-2010, 04:50 AM
Black metal is just a laugh the real Satanists are in NATO, UN, Human rights watch etc and all politicians lol. And people that pick on Islam and Sharia law.... Burn the witches! Go Saudi.
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'Abd Al-Maajid
04-17-2010, 05:02 AM
And Allah mentioned Jerusalem as a Holy land in Qur'an...[" Moses said unto his people, 'O my people, enter the Holy Land, which Allah hath decreed you.' " - (Qur'an 5:21)]
[" Has not there come to you the story of Moses? How his Lord called him in the the holy valley of Tuwa " - (Qur'an 79:15-16)]
But did Allah mentioned Saudi Arabia as Holy in Qur'an or Prophet said it...:?
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CosmicPathos
04-17-2010, 05:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdulmajid
And Allah mentioned Jerusalem as a Holy land in Qur'an...[" Moses said unto his people, 'O my people, enter the Holy Land, which Allah hath decreed you.' " - (Qur'an 5:21)]
[" Has not there come to you the story of Moses? How his Lord called him in the the holy valley of Tuwa " - (Qur'an 79:15-16)]
But did Allah mentioned Saudi Arabia as Holy in Qur'an or Prophet said it...:?
Well I am not a scholar but from the apparent meanings of that verse, it is being directed to the people of Moses. I follow Prophet Muhammad pbuh and the Sharia he brought. Secondly, whether or not Saudia Arab is a holy country or not, I dont know, but I do know that Holy lands are in that country namely Makkah and Madina Munawwara.

Didnt Allah swt then tell prophet Muhammad pbuh to change Qibla from Al Aqsa to Makkah? If Masjid al Haraam was not Holy why would Allah order that?
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glo
04-17-2010, 06:42 AM
The lawyer for a Lebanese man sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia for witchcraft has appealed for international help to save him.
Ali Sabat was the host of a popular Lebanese TV show in which he predicted the future and gave advice.

He was arrested by religious police on sorcery charges while on a pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia in 2008.

His lawyer, May el-Khansa, says she has been told Mr Sabat is due to be executed this week.
Ms Khansa has contacted the Lebanese president and prime minister to appeal on his behalf.
There has been no official confirmation from Saudi Arabia, but executions there are often carried out with little warning.


Mr Sabat did make a confession, but Ms Khansa says he only did so because he had been told he could go back to Lebanon if he did.

Human rights groups have accused the Saudis of "sanctioning a literal witch hunt by the religious police".

An Egyptian working as a pharmacist in Saudi Arabia was executed in 2007 after having been found guilty of using sorcery to try to separate a married couple.

There is no legal definition of witchcraft in Saudi Arabia, but horoscopes and fortune telling are condemned as un-Islamic.
Nevertheless, there is still a big thirst for such services in the country where widespread superstition survives under the surface of strict religious orthodoxy.
Source BBC news

Although the beheading was imminent at the time the article was written (1st April 2010), I have not found any articles confirming that the execution has taken place.
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ardianto
04-17-2010, 09:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
.... Burn the witches! Go Saudi.
Witch burning is not Muslim's tradition, brother.
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Al-Indunisiy
04-17-2010, 01:27 PM
:sl:

My concern is: Do the Saudi authority use the charge of 'witchcraft' arbitrarily? Can someone from KSA enlighten me on this. How could one be convicted of practicing witchcraft?
Or in other words: Would it be dissimilar in practice to Salem and the accounts of the Maleus Maleficarum? And is it true that the crime of witchcraft is ill defined in Saudi Law?
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Al-Indunisiy
04-17-2010, 01:52 PM
:sl:

I also found this while browsing. It's a letter from the Human Rights Watch to King Abdullah on the case of Fawza Falih. The parts which I underlined are what I consider as bearing tangent to my OP question.

Letter to HRH King Abdullah bin Abd al-’Aziz Al Saud on "Witchcraft" Case
February 13, 2008

HRH King Abdullah bin Abd al-’Aziz Al Saud
Royal Court
Riyadh 11111
Saudi Arabia

Your Royal Highness,

Human Rights Watch urges you to immediately halt the execution of Fawza Falih Muhammad Ali, currently imprisoned in Quraiyat Prison. Fawza Falih has exhausted her appeals and her relatives in Jordan believe the papers are currently in your office awaiting your approval of the execution.


The court in Quraiyat, on April 2, 2006 (3/3/1427), sentenced her to death by beheading for the alleged crimes of ““witchcraft, recourse to jinn [supernatural beings], and slaughter” of animals.

Your Highness, the conviction of Fawza Falih for “witchcraft” is a travesty of justice and reveals severe shortcomings in Saudi Arabia’s justice system. The crime of “witchcraft” is not defined by law; judges breached safeguards for a fair trial in existing Saudi law; and there were significant procedural flaws throughout the trial which effectively eradicated her ability to defend herself against the ill-defined charges against her.
We remain convinced that Fawza Falih has not committed any crime at all. First, it is not clear what the actual elements if any of the crime of “witchcraft” are, and the offence is not defined in Saudi law. As you know, Saudi Arabia does not have a written penal code that spells out the elements of a given crime. The accusation of witchcraft appears to have been based upon a broad, vague concept, which cannot be said to constitute “law”. Under international human rights law, persons suspected of crimes may only be charged with offenses as established by law, and which are sufficiently clear so that everyone has the possibility to understand clearly what behavior it is that will cause them to violate that law.

Furthermore, in addition to the lack of a clear definition of “witchcraft” in Saudi law and the absence of a written penal code in which to search for such a definition, the judges in the court of Quraiyat did not define the meaning of “witchcraft”, but instead cited a variety of alleged actions, stated intentions, and “tools” for “witchcraft” in a weak attempt to suggest that “witchcraft” had indeed taken place. The court cited one instance in which a man allegedly became impotent after being “bewitched.” In another, a divorced woman reportedly returned to her ex-husband during the month predicted by the witch said to have cast the spell. The court failed to probe alternative explanations for these developments which appear to be ordinary phenomena. Indeed drawing on the illustrations cited by the courts, it is evident that the practice of “witchcraft”, if it exists, is by its nature impossible to prove, since it involves the alleged use of supernatural powers.
The court record itself reveals significant doubt about the truth of the “witchcraft” accusations, which are substantiated solely on the basis of statements by persons who believed they had been “bewitched,” and by “strange” objects reportedly found in the house of the accused and on a tree.

Court Verdict number 125/2 of October 10, 2006 (17/9/1427) states that Fawza Falih confessed that “I take 1,500 Riyal for each act of which I send half to the magician Abu Tal’a [who allegedly taught her “witchcraft”] according to the agreement, for Abu Tal’a said to me, ‘If you do not bring the money, by God, you will become possessed by jinn like dogs.” If any “strange” acts did indeed take place, they seem to have been the result of a money-making scam. Those who lost money have not sued to have their money returned. Fawza Falih’s alleged actions did not result in any complaints of injury or damage suffered by any party.

In addition, there were numerous procedural and legal errors throughout the course of this trial. Judges of the court appear to have both disregarded established laws and made up new law as the trial proceeded. Their first verdict sentenced Fawza Falih to death for “witchcraft” as an “offense against God” (hadd) with a prescribed punishment of death. The legal basis for this decision includes the statement that witches “are not given the opportunity to repent, because witchcraft is not eradicable by penitence.”

Following remarks on the case by the Court of Appeals of September 1, 2006 (19/12/1427) that two of the accused were sentenced to death “despite having retracted their confessions,” and that consequently “doubt shields from hadd punishments,” the judges in Quraiyat, in a new verdict of June 6, 2007 (25/5/1428), sentenced Fawza Falih to death on a “discretionary” basis, in the name of “public interest” and to “preserve the creed and the souls and property of this country.”

Aside from the spurious nature of the charges against her, during the trial, Fawza Falih attended only the first and the last of at least six sessions. Article 140 of the LCP states that, “in major crimes, the accused shall personally appear before the court.” In the first session, only one judge was present and questioned her. Article 129 of the LCP specifies that a panel of three judges must sit in cases involving death sentences, and Article 7 halts proceedings until the judges have reached the prescribed number. Furthermore, the accused was unable to challenge any of the witnesses against her: the witnesses did not testify in court, but gave written statements, and the judge kept her in the waiting room during sessions when evidence was presented. Article 163 of the LCP states that “Each of the parties may cross-examine the witnesses called by the other party and discuss its evidence.” Fawza Falih in her appeal claims not to even know some of the witnesses who claim have seen her perform acts of “witchcraft”. The denial of her legal right to cross-examine witnesses in court seriously impaired her efforts to defend herself against the charges.

The judge also prevented her son, who was acting as her officially certified legal representative, from attending any of the court sessions, violating Article 4 of the LCP which gives “Any accused person … the right to seek the assistance of a lawyer or a representative to defend him during the investigation and trial stages.” Article 140 states that the obligation to appear in person in major crimes cannot be used as a justification to exclude legal representatives from the proceedings.

Other aspects of the arrest, treatment and trial of Fawza Falih are also deeply worrying. Fawza Falih spent 35 days in detention at the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (CPVPV) after her arrest on May 4, 2005 (25/3/1426). Her detention there violated a 1981 royal decree prohibiting the CPVPV from holding and interrogating suspects at their centers. She asserted in her appeal that she was beaten during her interrogation, naming one official of the governorate. Her appeal states that she lost consciousness during one beating and was treated at the hospital. She asserts that fellow female prisoners bandaged her wounds. Human Rights Watch spoke to a relative who was allowed to visit her for the first time after about 20 days in CPVPV detention, following her hospital treatment, and saw marks from beatings on her back. There would thus have been ample evidence to indicate that her confession was coerced.

The interrogators and the judges violated Fawza Falih’s rights to due process and a fair trial in other ways as well. Her family hired lawyer Abdullah al-Suhaimi, but the head of the interrogation committee refused him access to her when he asked to see her within a few days of her arrest. Article 64 of the Law of Criminal Procedure (LCP) specifies that “During the investigation, the accused shall have the right to seek the assistance of a representative or an attorney,” and Article 70 states that “The Investigator shall not, during the investigation, separate the accused from his accompanying representative or attorney.” Furthermore, Fawza Falih, who is illiterate, claims that her confession was not read to her, but that she was nonetheless forced to fingerprint it as a mark of authentication.

Your Highness, Human Rights Watch is deeply troubled by the miscarriage of justice that has occurred in the case of Fawza Falih. We urge you to halt immediately all proceedings for her execution, to void her sentence, and to instruct officials to preserve the facts of the case so that the prosecution may initiate proceedings against the members of the CPVPV and the governorate who wrongfully arrested and mistreated Fawza Falih and so that the inspector of the judiciary is able to initiate disciplinary proceedings against the judges who violated her rights under Saudi and international law.

Sincerely,

/s/

Christoph Wilcke
Researcher
Human Rights Watch
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CosmicPathos
04-17-2010, 04:49 PM
lol human rights watch. Now Mr Wilcke will tell us that if someone committed consensual zina, he shouldnt be killed because "it is impossible to prove if a supernatural God (Allah) exists who would condemn such consensual sex."
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جوري
04-17-2010, 06:00 PM
I wish they'd crack down on these charlatans in the entire Arab world.. Egypt is another one.. dajaal beyond description, like we are back in pharonic times but all of it with malice.. the saddest part is how these dajaleen extort massive amounts of money and prey on the ignorant and poor to do harm to other ignorant and poor .. also there should be some sort of public awareness made but folks never heed the religious shows especially in countries like Egypt again, 23 hrs of dance harajj and marjj but 5 minutes to religion if at all which everyone shuns because these 'scholars' are far removed from the public either by choice or by force.. I don't know what sort of change needs to be made but I am really for the strictest punishment possible.. let folks like that tree hugging moron with the letter above back to his trees and stop interfering with useless letter to any 'royal heinie'!
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glo
04-17-2010, 06:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Witch burning is not Muslim's tradition, brother.
From what I understand the planned method of execution is beheading.
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tango92
04-17-2010, 06:49 PM
i think i would prefer electric chair, or something quicker at least...

what exactly consitutes witchcraft and how do you get evidence? im sure there are plenty of people practising black magic but why single out this one?
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جوري
04-17-2010, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tango92
i think i would prefer electric chair, or something quicker at least...

what exactly consitutes witchcraft and how do you get evidence? im sure there are plenty of people practising black magic but why single out this one?
Maybe she was unfortunate enough to get caught..

as for what constitutes 'witchcraft' let me quote you from the Noble Quran:

وَاتَّبَعُواْ مَا تَتْلُواْ الشَّيَاطِينُ عَلَى مُلْكِ سُلَيْمَانَ وَمَا كَفَرَ سُلَيْمَانُ وَلَـكِنَّ الشَّيْاطِينَ كَفَرُواْ يُعَلِّمُونَ النَّاسَ السِّحْرَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَى الْمَلَكَيْنِ بِبَابِلَ هَارُوتَ وَمَارُوتَ وَمَا يُعَلِّمَانِ مِنْ أَحَدٍ حَتَّى يَقُولاَ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ فِتْنَةٌ فَلاَ تَكْفُرْ فَيَتَعَلَّمُونَ مِنْهُمَا مَا يُفَرِّقُونَ بِهِ بَيْنَ الْمَرْءِ وَزَوْجِهِ وَمَا هُم بِضَآرِّينَ بِهِ مِنْ أَحَدٍ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَيَتَعَلَّمُونَ مَا يَضُرُّهُمْ وَلاَ يَنفَعُهُمْ وَلَقَدْ عَلِمُواْ لَمَنِ اشْتَرَاهُ مَا لَهُ فِي الآخِرَةِ مِنْ خَلاَقٍ وَلَبِئْسَ مَا شَرَوْاْ بِهِ أَنفُسَهُمْ لَوْ كَانُواْ يَعْلَمُونَ {102}
[Pickthal 2:102] And follow that which the devils falsely related against the kingdom of Solomon. Solomon disbelieved not; but the devils disbelieved, teaching mankind magic and that which was revealed to the two angels in Babel, Harut and Marut. Nor did they (the two angels) teach it to anyone till they had said: We are only a temptation, therefore disbelieve not (in the guidance of Allah). And from these two (angles) people learn that by which they cause division between man and wife; but they injure thereby no-one save by Allah's leave. And they learn that which harmeth them and profiteth them not. And surely they do know that he who trafficketh therein will have no (happy) portion in the Hereafter; and surely evil is the price for which they sell their souls, if they but knew.


so folks seek these people with intent to do harm to others.. now whether the folks they go to are extortionist or actually know some dark arts is besides the point.. the point is the intent of malice..

and Allah swt knows best

:w:
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islamirama
04-17-2010, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
From what I understand the planned method of execution is beheading.
It's more efficient and cost effective. Unlike the west where it costs more to kill an inmate than to keep in jail :D
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Karl
04-17-2010, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
It's more efficient and cost effective. Unlike the west where it costs more to kill an inmate than to keep in jail :D
I suppose decapitating is more humane than burning at the stake, a very painful way to go. And there is no sadism involved just a clean kill.
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Supreme
04-17-2010, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
I suppose decapitating is more humane than burning at the stake, a very painful way to go. And there is no sadism involved just a clean kill.
It depends. I believe one exampl is Mary Queen of Scots- when she was finally executed by her cousin Elizabeth I, has several blows to her head and back before the executioner finally mentioned to chop her head off. The agony she must have experienced. Although, I think the most humane method of execution is a firing squad.
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ardianto
04-18-2010, 01:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
From what I understand the planned method of execution is beheading.
Now I hope Karl will not say "Behead the witches !"

The problem is not how can people punish the witches ?, but are they really witches ?.
I read history around Witch Burning, but from some references I found there were many innocent people who became victims caused by false accusation.
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CosmicPathos
04-18-2010, 02:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Now I hope Karl will not say "Behead the witches !"

The problem is not how can people punish the witches ?, but are they really witches ?.
I read history around Witch Burning, but from some references I found there were many innocent people who became victims caused by false accusation.
Thats why we have Islamic Sharia to punish people in a just manner. Regarding how the evidence was gained in regards to this witch, well if you find the materials which are used for Magic, isnt that enough to show that this person possess the materials which are used for Sihr? After investigation if it is proven that she took money for separating lovers etc, what other evidence is needed? I am sure the jurists in Saudi Arabia probably seeked much more concrete evidence than I can think of before punishing her.
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glo
04-18-2010, 02:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
The problem is not how can people punish the witches ?, but are they really witches ?.
I read history around Witch Burning, but from some references I found there were many innocent people who became victims caused by false accusation.
Don't get me started.
The medieval witch hunts were horrendous - and remain a painful stain on the history of Christianity (as well as other religions and cultures). imsad

Even worse to think that people don't seem to have learned from that part of history, and that witch hunts still take place today in places such as Africa, India, Papua New Guinea and Saudi Arabia.

Africa

In many African societies the fear of witches drives periodic witch-hunts during which specialist witch-finders identify suspects, even today, with death by mob often the result.[23] Audrey I. Richards, in the journal Africa, relates in 1935 an instance when a new wave of witchfinders, the Bamucapi, appeared in the villages of the Bemba people.[24] They dressed in European clothing, and would summon the headman to prepare a ritual meal for the village. When the villagers arrived they would view them all in a mirror, and claimed they could identify witches with this method. These witches would then have to "yield up his horns"; i.e. give over the horn containers for curses and evil potions to the witch-finders. The bamucapi then made all drink a potion called kucapa which would cause a witch to die and swell up if he ever tried such things again. The villagers related that the witch-finders were always right because the witches they found were always the people whom the village had feared all along. The bamucapi utilised a mixture of Christian and native religious traditions to account for their powers and said that God (not specifying which God) helped them to prepare their medicine. In addition, all witches who did not attend the meal to be identified would be called to account later on by their master, who had risen from the dead, and who would force the witches by means of drums to go to the graveyard, where they would die. Richards noted that the bamucapi created the sense of danger in the villages by rounding up all the horns in the village, whether they were used for anti-witchcraft charms, potions, snuff or were indeed receptacles of black magic.

The Bemba people believed misfortunes such as wartings hauntings and famines to be just actions sanctioned by the High-God Lesa. The only agency which caused unjust harm was a witch, who had enormous powers and was hard to detect. After white rule of Africa beliefs in sorcery and witchcraft grew, possibly because of the social strain caused by new ideas, customs and laws, and also because the courts no longer allowed witches to be tried.[citation needed]

Amongst the Bantu tribes of Southern Africa, the witch smellers were responsible for detecting witches. In parts of Southern Africa several hundred people have been killed in witch hunts since 1990.[25]

Several African states, Cameroon[26], Togo for example, have reestablished witchcraft-accusations in courts. A person can be imprisoned or fined for the account of a witch-doctor.

It was reported on 21 May 2008 that in Kenya a mob had burnt to death at least 11 people accused of witchcraft.[27]

In March 2009 Amnesty International reported that up to 1,000 people in the Gambia had been abducted by government-sponsored "witch doctors" on charges of witchcraft, and taken to detention centers where they were forced to drink poisonous concoctions.[28] On May 21, 2009, The New York Times reported that the alleged witch-hunting campaign had been sparked by the Gambia's President Yahya Jammeh.[29]

In Sierra Leone, the witch-hunt is an occasion for a sermon by the kɛmamɔi (native Mende witch-finder) on social ethics : "Witchcraft ... takes hold in people’s lives when people are less than fully open-hearted. All wickedness is ultimately because people hate each other or are jealous or suspicious or afraid. These emotions and motivations cause people to act antisocially".[30] The response by the populace to the kɛmamɔi is that "they valued his work and would learn the lessons he came to teach them, about social responsibility and cooperation."[31]


India

In India, labeling a woman as a witch is a common ploy to grab land, settle scores or even to punish her for turning down sexual advances. In a majority of the cases, it is difficult for the accused woman to reach out for help and she is forced to either abandon her home and family or driven to commit suicide. Most cases are not documented because it's difficult for poor and illiterate women to travel from isolated regions to file police reports. Less than 2 percent of those accused of witch-hunting are actually convicted, according to a study by the Free Legal Aid Committee, a group that works with victims in the state of Jharkhand.[32]

A recent publicized case in India was in October 2009 when five Muslim women were brutally abused by villagers after being branded as witches by the local cleric in the remote and extremely poor Jharkhand state. The incident was only made public after a cellphone video surfaced of the event. Many national research agencies contend events such as these happen daily around the world, without any reports to the police out of fear of retribution.[33]


Papua New Guinea

Though the practice of "white" magic (such as faith healing) is legal in Papua, the 1976 Sorcery Act imposes a penalty of up to 2 years in prison for the practise of "black" magic. In 2009, the government reports that extrajudicial torture and murder of alleged witches - usually lone women - is spreading from the Highland areas to cities as villagers migrate to urban areas.[34]



Saudi Arabia


On February 16, 2008 a Saudi woman, Fawza Falih, was arrested and convicted of witchcraft and now faces imminent beheading for sorcery unless the King issues a rare pardon.[35] And on November 9, 2009, Lebanese TV presenter Ali Sibat (who was arrested in Medina in 2008) was sentenced to death on charges of witchcraft. According to Sarah Leah Whitson, the Middle East director at Human Rights Watch, "Saudi courts are sanctioning a literal witch hunt by the religious police." Also according to Human Rights Watch, two other people have been arrested on similar charges in November 2009 alone.[36]
Source
Reply

ardianto
04-18-2010, 02:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Don't get me started.
The medieval witch hunts were horrendous - and remain a painful stain on the history of Christianity (as well as other religions and cultures). imsad

Even worse to think that people don't seem to have learned from that part of history, and that witch hunts still take place today in places such as Africa, India, Papua New Guinea and Saudi Arabia.


Source
I am really sorry if I make you so sad, Glo. And I am really sorry if my word has offend Christian people.

I just want to say, we must take a lesson from Witch Burning history for prevent an innocent becomes a victim causes by false accusation.
Reply

glo
04-18-2010, 02:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
I am really sorry if I make you so sad, Glo. And I am really sorry if my word has offend Christian people.
That's very kind of you, ardianto. :)
But don't worry. You are not offending me.
You are speaking the truth, and the sins people have committed in the past (and present) in the name of my faith are what offends me!

I just want to say, we must take a lesson from Witch Burning history for prevent an innocent becomes a victim causes by false accusation.
Amen to that.
Reply

glo
04-18-2010, 02:33 AM
double post.
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-18-2010, 03:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
That's very kind of you, ardianto. :)
But don't worry. You are not offending me.
You are speaking the truth, and the sins people have committed in the past (and present) in the name of my faith are what offends me!


Amen to that.
Without being offensive, they had justifications right from their faith, which they claimed to be that of Christianity? Isnt thats how they viewed their faith? How can we judge, in this case regarding Christianity, what is a part of Christian faith and what is not? When each denomination has something new to say? And when the Church also changes/modifies its teachings over time. perhaps back then the Church thought that one is really being a true Christian if they hunt witches and perhaps thats why it was such a massive movement accepted by most of the faithful? Now if you say that Church was wrong then woah ... how can the source/rock on which Christianity is built can be wrong? I guess I side-tracked but I am still talking about witch hunt.
Reply

islamirama
04-18-2010, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Don't get me started.
The medieval witch hunts were horrendous - and remain a painful stain on the history of Christianity (as well as other religions and cultures). imsad

Even worse to think that people don't seem to have learned from that part of history, and that witch hunts still take place today in places such as Africa, India, Papua New Guinea and Saudi Arabia.

Source
Idk how the witch hunts are going in these places but the salem witch hunts and other christianity witch hunts were a joke. Apart from the original witch hunt where the pope sent out troops against those christians that actually did worship the devil and started witch hunt, these people escaped and renamed their group to what later became as the free masons. But salem witch hunt stuff was a joke, they threw you in the river to see if you were a witch. If you drowned you were innocent (how lucky you) but if you could swim and saved yourself than you are a witch and should be burned at the stake.

As for witchcraft in itself, it is real. The black magic and arts are all real. You have to do some very unholy stuff to get into it but believe its real. only way to end it is kill all those that practice it.

Is witchcraft real? Is it permissible to seek treatment from practitioners of witchcraft .

Correct ruling on one who practices magic or witchcraft .
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 03:46 AM
Just an observation, as I've seen this before:

On February 16, 2008 a Saudi woman, Fawza Falih, was arrested and convicted of witchcraft and now faces imminent beheading for sorcery unless the King issues a rare pardon.[35] And on November 9, 2009, Lebanese TV presenter Ali Sibat (who was arrested in Medina in 2008) was sentenced to death on charges of witchcraft. According to Sarah Leah Whitson, the Middle East director at Human Rights Watch, "Saudi courts are sanctioning a literal witch hunt by the religious police." Also according to Human Rights Watch, two other people have been arrested on similar charges in November 2009 alone.[36]
What business does Saudi Arabia have arresting someone for their actions in another country and actions that were completely legal, or acceptable (presumably) under Lebanese law? It would be like Germany arresting a non-german citizen for denying the holocaust outside their borders.
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 03:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
lol human rights watch. Now Mr Wilcke will tell us that if someone committed consensual zina, he shouldnt be killed because "it is impossible to prove if a supernatural God (Allah) exists who would condemn such consensual sex."
Well, yes...

Why would that amuse you? The idea of arresting for 'withcraft', or for such silly things like 'sorcery' are pretty horrendous ideas. Whether or not you believe it exists or not, it cannot come across as anything other to someone in the west as a throwback to the medieval witch hunts.
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 03:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Just an observation, as I've seen this before:



What business does Saudi Arabia have arresting someone for their actions in another country and actions that were completely legal, or acceptable (presumably) under Lebanese law? It would be like Germany arresting a non-german citizen for denying the holocaust outside their borders.
what business does Italy have persecuting an american citizen for killing a British woman?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/04/...ial/index.html
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Skavau
04-18-2010, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
what business does Italy have persecuting an american citizen for killing a British woman?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/04/...ial/index.html
Meredith Kercher was murdered in Italy, with an Italian accomplise. Hardly comparable, Skye.

Oh you've changed your name.
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Meredith Kercher was murdered in Italy, with an Italian accomplise. Hardly comparable, Skye.
I guess the moral is don't commit a crime that will be shown on TV and then go to a country or live in a country that will persecute you for it!

all the best
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-18-2010, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Well, yes...

Why would that amuse you? The idea of arresting for 'withcraft', or for such silly things like 'sorcery' are pretty horrendous ideas. Whether or not you believe it exists or not, it cannot come across as anything other to someone in the west as a throwback to the medieval witch hunts.
Whatever Mr Wilcke says, its based on his beliefs. I have no reason to pay attention to what he says based on his beliefs.
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 03:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Whatever Mr Wilcke says, its based on his beliefs. I have no reason to pay attention to what he says based on his beliefs.
Almost everything everyone says on ethical or social matters are all entirely based on their beliefs. It cannot be based on anything else.
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CosmicPathos
04-18-2010, 04:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Almost everything everyone says on ethical or social matters are all entirely based on their beliefs. It cannot be based on anything else.
Well then there you go. he shouldnt be interfering in what people in Saudi Arabia believe in. Its none of his matters.
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 04:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I guess the moral is don't commit a crime that will be shown on TV and then go to a country or live in a country that will persecute you for it!

all the best
Well, that would be pragmatic of course - but it does not excuse the decision or grant a nation the moral right to impose itself on other people for acts they took outside of its jurisdiction. At the best of times, the very notion or objective to execute someone for 'witchcraft' or 'sorcery' or any familiar sounding fantasy concepts comes across as an extremely tribalistic, superstitious and paranoid idea. To decide to impose it on non-citizens that allegedly did it not in their nation is rather overstepping it further.

Exusing my Godwin tendencies but I take it by your logic, by the way, that any returning Jews to Nazi Germany in the early to mid 1930's would have been given the same response? Nevermind the immorality of the persecution of a people, or of a group - the moral, the far most important moral is to not return to a state that will persecute you!
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Almost everything everyone says on ethical or social matters are all entirely based on their beliefs. It cannot be based on anything else.
same holds true for laws in the 'civilized west' here are a few from the state of NJ alone and not the oddest:

Drivers must warn those who they pass on highways before they do so.
Full text of the law.
Spray paint may not be sold without a posted sign warning juveliles of the penalty for creating graffiti.
Full text of the law.
Handcuffs may not be sold to minors.
Full text of the law.
It is illegal to wear a bullet-proof vest while committing a murder.
Full text of the law.
One must yield a phone line to a person if it is an emergency.
Full text of the law.
All motorists must honk before passing another car, bicyclist, skater, and even a skateboarder.
Full text of the law.
You cannot pump your own gas.
Why does this law exist?
Full text of the law.
It is against the law for a man to knit during the fishing season.
It is against the law to “frown” at a police officer.
In an attempt to “foster kindness” in the citizens of New Jersey, the month of May is designated “Kindness Awareness Month”.
Full text of the law.
If you have been convicted of driving while intoxicated, you may never again apply for personalized license plates.
The third Thursday of October is designated as “New Jersey Credit Union Day” and citizens of the state should observe the day with “appropriate activities and programs”.
Full text of the law.
Car dealerships are forbidden from opening on Sunday.
Full text of the law.
You may not slurp your soup.
Automobiles are not to pass horse drawn carriages on the street.
It is illegal to delay or detain a homing pigeon.



again if you don't want to pay for your crimes don't commit them.. the dark arts is actually a biggie since people harass others with intent of malice.. whether or not something comes of it isn't important either religiously or secularly if you've read the fatwas at all , the fact a crime is committed against another human being is!

all the best
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 04:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Well then there you go. he shouldnt be interfering in what people in Saudi Arabia believe in. Its none of his matters.
Why should Saudi Arabia be interfering with (or ending in this instance) the life of Lebanese man for a 'crime' (by their book) that he committed not on their soil?

I hope, by the way, that you have noticed in life that morality pragmatically is a system of behavioural constraint based on an understanding and consideration for the personhood of others? That concept in the modern-world now has moved beyond tribalism or 1920 to 1930's relativism and now extends globally. I do not know anyone that would say that a petty dictator in a small african state ought to be left to his own devices. That we should not consider condemnation for his actions at the expense of others. I do not know anyone that says that we ought to have no input on North Korean affairs and just allow the 'dear leader' to do as he wants with his nation.

Such an idea presents citizenship meaning something as a joke, and is a complete annexation of human rights at the preferred idea of inflated national sovereignty.
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 04:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Well, that would be pragmatic of course - but it does not excuse the decision or grant a nation the moral right to impose itself on other people for acts they took outside of its jurisdiction. At the best of times, the very notion or objective to execute someone for 'witchcraft' or 'sorcery' or any familiar sounding fantasy concepts comes across as an extremely tribalistic, superstitious and paranoid idea. To decide to impose it on non-citizens that allegedly did it not in their nation is rather overstepping it further.
These are the laws throughout the entire Muslim world. Lebanon is majority Muslim country as such Islamic law is supreme!
Exusing my Godwin tendencies but I take it by your logic, by the way, that any returning Jews to Nazi Germany in the early to mid 1930's would have been given the same response? Nevermind the immorality of the persecution of a people, or of a group - the moral, the far most important moral is to not return to a state that will persecute you!
Well the problem is you have no logic and don't see that there are victims in these crimes, as such everything you write can be dismissed!

all the best
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 04:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye
again if you don't want to pay for your crimes don't commit them.. the dark arts is actually a biggie since people harass others with intent of malice.. whether or not something comes of it isn't important either religiously or secularly if you've read the fatwas at all , the fact a crime is committed against another human being is!
No, excuse me. This Lebanese man did not willingly commit any crime. He did not even have the notion that what he was doing was a crime. His action also did not affect anyone. He was not even on Saudi Arabian land when he did what he did. He is (or was) a television presenter.
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 04:16 AM
By the way I see no source to the original article.. so which parts of it can we consider true and which can be thrown out?
who knows, either way it doesn't matter.. I really do hope they implement the highest penalty on all these people the entire middle eastern region. I have never seen areas this steeped in sorcery and superstitions, they prey on the weak and desperate and then you have these fruitcakes and tree-huggers telling you it is medieval.. well if you commit medieval crimes expect medieval punishment!
Reply

Ramadhan
04-18-2010, 04:17 AM
I wished we had much stricter laws against witchcraft here in Indonesia.
Here fortunetellers are given their own shows on TV, and they practice openly.
people who practice witchcraft and dark arts are even advertising their services on newspapers!
And this things are happening in the world's largest muslim country! :(
So many people have forgotten that to participate in anything to do with witchcraft is among the gravest acts of shirk.
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 04:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
These are the laws throughout the entire Muslim world. Lebanon is majority Muslim country as such Islamic law is supreme!
Have Lebanon commented on another state going rogue and just deciding that they will behead one of their citizens? Because I haven't seen any response from Lebanon.

Well the problem is you have no logic and don't see that there are victims in these crimes, as such everything you write can be dismissed!
That... has nothing to do with what I asked. I asked whether or not you would say to an oppressed group that the moral they could learn from their hardships would be that they should be more careful. That your sympathy is reserved for a state rather than a suffering minority. Nevertheless I shall ask again: I take it by your logic, by the way, that any returning Jews to Nazi Germany in the early to mid 1930's would have been given the same response? That they should have been more careful?
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 04:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
No, excuse me. This Lebanese man did not willingly commit any crime. He did not even have the notion that what he was doing was a crime. His action also did not affect anyone. He was not even on Saudi Arabian land when he did what he did. He is (or was) a television presenter.
so far all I have to go on is one un-sourced article and your ardent protests.. People don't get beheaded for giving the daily horoscope!
try to use your brain a little if you can and it the two cells in it aren't held together by some spirochete!


all the best
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 04:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Have Lebanon commented on another state going rogue and just deciding that they will behead one of their citizens? Because I haven't seen any response from Lebanon.
Has Lebanon commented on this incident all together? surely if it had some semblance of truth there would be some diplomatic negations to extradite him there. leaves you with two options really!
That... has nothing to do with what I asked. I asked whether or not you would say to an oppressed group that the moral they could learn from their hardships would be that they should be more careful. That your sympathy is reserved for a state rather than a suffering minority. Nevertheless I shall ask again: I take it by your logic, by the way, that any returning Jews to Nazi Germany in the early to mid 1930's would have been given the same response? That they should have been more careful?
I don't consider your example and the distillate of it viable all together, I have dismissed it!

all the best
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 04:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
so far all I have to go on is one un-sourced article and your ardent protests.. People don't get beheaded for giving the daily horoscope!
try to use your brain a little if you can and it the two cells in it aren't held together by some spirochete!
Insulted noted, as usual.

In any case:

Click here

format_quote Originally Posted by Source
Ali Hussain Sibat, the father of five, was to be executed after noon prayers Friday, but a frenzy of media coverage, appeals by international human rights groups and intervention by several Lebanese government officials, may have saved his life, at least temporarily.
A Shi'ite Muslim, Sibat traveled to Saudi Arabia in 2008 to perform a religious pilgrimage known as 'umra,' when he was arrested by Saudi's religious police who accused him of practicing sorcery. The charges stem from Sibat's job in Lebanon, where he has hosted a popular television show in which he made predictions on an Arab satellite TV channel from his home in Beirut.
More Sources: 1, 2, 3.

It appears he may still be alive, or it may be averted.
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 04:29 AM
I don't consider your example and the distillate of it viable all together, I have dismissed it!
Typical. What that tells me is that you can't defend your train of logic. You claim no sympathy for those oppressed in nations. You have no sentences of empathy for the abused or oppressed. You have no recognition for the suffering of those who perish under totalitarian systems where the government is more than satisfied to terminate those who it believes is counter-productive or not conforming to their grand scheme, or five year plans. All you can say is that perhaps they should have left sooner, or perhaps they should not have arrived in the first place.

Do you not believe that nations can be corrupt?
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 04:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Insulted noted, as usual.
we'll take this as a hopeful note that you'll smarten up before you bore us with your next non sequitur to some distant byway?

In any case:




More Sources: 1, 2, 3.
The article says the man mad a 'confession' can you get that confession so we'll have a listen to its clause?

It appears he may still be alive, or it may be averted.
If he survives this I hope it shakes others like him to think twice before interfering with the lives of others with the intent of malice!

all the best
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 04:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Typical. What that tells me is that you can't defend your train of logic. You claim no sympathy for those oppressed in nations
.
this coming from a guy linking being a Jew to being a sorcerer and expecting me to defend what? a concoction you created in your mind? you are pathetic to the highest degree!

You have no sentences of empathy for the abused or oppressed.
I need not comment on the abused nor the oppressed merely the nature of the crime and why it is a crime!
You have no recognition for the suffering of those who perish under totalitarian systems where the government is more than satisfied to terminate those who it believes is counter-productive or not conforming to their grand scheme, or five year plans. All you can say is that perhaps they should have left sooner, or perhaps they should not have arrived in the first place.
well thank God for your presence to be the voice of debauchery and deprivation whenever opportunity presents itself!
Do you not believe that nations can be corrupt?
I believe you come from a corrupt nation yes, and are a prime product of it-- an individual who values the superficial and fuzzy and feels fit to peddle and argue with his nonsense whenever he sees an opportunity citing absolutely nothing but mishmash written to incite emotions and places very little value on reality and factuality of the situations!

all the best
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 04:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye
we'll take this as a hopeful note that you'll smarten up before you bore us with your next non sequitur to some distant byway?
Oh so you did insult me? It was intended? Thanks for telling me.

Are you confusing the word non-sequitor with red herring?

The article says the man mad a 'confession' can you get that confession so we'll have a listen to its clause?
The article says he made a confession to his interrogators under false pretext, but it was then used against him to convict him.

format_quote Originally Posted by Times
His interrogators allegedly told him to write down what he did for a living, reassuring him that, if he did so, he would be allowed to go home after a few weeks. This document was presented in court as a confession and used to convict him, Amnesty said.
I would not be surprised if they told him what to say in his 'confession'.

If he survives this I hope it shakes others like him to think twice before interfering with the lives of others with the intent of malice!
What are you talking about? You have no idea what his intent was. He is (or possibly was) a television presenter in Lebanon who made predictions. There is no evidence he was trying to deliberately interfere with the lives of others. There is no evidence he had any bone of malice, and since you have already inquired for his confession by your own admission you cannot pretend to know this.

There is however, evidence of malevolence in the Saudi Arabia. The interrogators lied to him in order to try and convict him and they have shown that they have no qualms in interfering with someone elses life by attempting to end it. You have it the complete wrong way around.

Why are you so inconsistent? This is exactly what I mean when I point out your unashamed bias in everything you write.
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 04:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye
this coming from a guy linking being a Jew to being a sorcerer and expecting me to defend what? a concoction you created in your mind? you are pathetic to the highest degree!
Jew?!

The sources say that he is a Muslim. Where on earth are you getting 'Jew' from?

I need not comment on the abused nor the oppressed merely the nature of the crime and why it is a crime!
Being on a television show, making predictions and giving out advice is a crime?

I believe you come from a corrupt nation yes, and are a prime product of it-- an individual who values the superficial and fuzzy and feels fit to peddle and argue with his nonsense whenever he sees an opportunity citing absolutely nothing but mishmash written to incite emotions and places very little value on reality and factuality of the situations!
Reality of the situation? You incorrectly speculated that this case with the Lebanese man did not exist, or was nothing like I was presenting it. You were wrong. You incorrectly suggested that Lebanon did not mind this happening. You were wrong. You keep suggesting that this man deliberately went out to harm other people. You were wrong.
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-18-2010, 04:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Jew?!

The sources say that he is a Muslim. Where on earth are you getting 'Jew' from?


Being on a television show, making predictions and giving out advice is a crime?


Reality of the situation? You incorrectly speculated that this case with the Lebanese man did not exist, or was nothing like I was presenting it. You were wrong. You incorrectly suggested that Lebanon did not mind this happening. You were wrong. You keep suggesting that this man deliberately went out to harm other people. You were wrong.
The comparison you made between a Jew returning to Nazi state and this punishment is what The vale is referring to .

Yes it was a crime. According to the people of Saudi Arabia.

Comparing North Korean dictator to the people of Saudi Arabia is hardly an intelligent analogy.
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 04:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Oh so you did insult me? It was intended? Thanks for telling me.

Are you confusing the word non-sequitor with red herring?
no I meant nonsequitur: (logic) a conclusion that does not follow from the premises!
which is exactly what you do and repeatedly, it makes it laborious to reply to you but you have a way of insinuating yourself on every other thread and letting your smarmy concerto out!

The article says he made a confession to his interrogators under false pretext, but it was then used against him to convict him.
until we find out what is in the article and how it took place your guess is as good as anyone else's there is nothing to argue about!


I would not be surprised if they told him what to say in his 'confession'.
Your conjectures are yours to keep!

What are you talking about? You have no idea what his intent was. He is (or possibly was) a television presenter in Lebanon who made predictions. There is no evidence he was trying to deliberately interfere with the lives of others. There is no evidence he had any bone of malice, and since you have already inquired for his confession by your own admission you cannot pretend to know this.
I have no idea what the hell you are talking about this entire time, are you defending a woman, are you upset with the crime or the fact that is should be made a crime, or the fact that it is another country persecuting the crime? as always you are all over the place and I can't work with your cognitive and emotional imbalance!
Medieval crimes get medieval punishment that is the end of that, we are not here to judge or prosecute this man since we don't know details of said crime save for what you conveniently cut and paste to highlight another moot point .. and if you are as 'empathetic' as a good atheist should why not put up some of your money to save him or her?
There is however, evidence of malevolence in the Saudi Arabia. The interrogators lied to him in order to try and convict him and they have shown that they have no qualms in interfering with someone elses life by attempting to end it. You have it the complete wrong way around.
Again you conjecture and I don't work well with conjectures or emotionality, until such a time you can get us his confession so we can judge it on its criteria and whether coerced or not, your opinion means jack!

Why are you so inconsistent? This is exactly what I mean when I point out your unashamed bias in everything you write.
How am I inconsistent, is it because I refuse to work with your all too frequent confabulations?

funny stuff

all the best
Reply

جوري
04-18-2010, 05:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Jew?!

The sources say that he is a Muslim. Where on earth are you getting 'Jew' from?
go back and read what you wrote.. you can't be that drunk!


Being on a television show, making predictions and giving out advice is a crime?
Again, he made a 'confession' we don't know if the confession included a daily horoscope .. horoscopes are given daily on TV no one has lost their head over it in KSA or anywhere else.. you remind me of that other moron Barrio who wrote a woman in KSA is being persecuted for removing her face veil while I posted for him Jeddah filled with uncovered faces.. but how amusing that you should cite articles from folks who have never even been inside KSA with the intent of inciting public outrage!
you shouldn't speak of what you do not know which is practically every other topic!

Reality of the situation? You incorrectly speculated that this case with the Lebanese man did not exist, or was nothing like I was presenting it. You were wrong. You incorrectly suggested that Lebanon did not mind this happening. You were wrong. You keep suggesting that this man deliberately went out to harm other people. You were wrong.
I didn't speculate that he didn't exist I asked for a source as the first article was un-sourced.. the latter articles spoke of a confession. Whatever the case it is now in the hands of sage judges not hysterical atheists!

all the best
Reply

Skavau
04-18-2010, 05:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye
no I meant nonsequitur: (logic) a conclusion that does not follow from the premises!
which is exactly what you do and repeatedly, it makes it laborious to reply to you but you have a way of insinuating yourself on every other thread and letting your smarmy concerto out!
I don't post on 'every other thread'. I'd ask you how I am commiting a non-sequitor but you refuse to anser 75% of my question. Nevertheless I will leave it open.

until we find out what is in the article and how it took place your guess is as good as anyone else's there is nothing to argue about!
Absolutely. But all sources are indicating they extracted a 'confession' out of him with the promise of a return home back to Lebanon. All sources indicate they lied when they did that.

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about this entire time, are you defending a woman, are you upset with the crime or the fact that is should be made a crime, or the fact that it is another country persecuting the crime? as always you are all over the place and I can't work with your cognitive and emotional imbalance!
Skye, you made the claim that he did his crime with malice. I will even quote you saying this:

"If he survives this I hope it shakes others like him to think twice before interfering with the lives of others with the intent of malice!"

You have no grounds to defend this.

Medieval crimes get medieval punishment that is the end of that
Medieval 'crimes' ought to be a thing of the past. They ought to not exist. Your statement is about as meaningful as claiming that as saying American crimes should get American punishments.

, we are not here to judge or prosecute this man since we don't know details of said crime save for what you conveniently cut and paste to highlight another moot point .. and if you are as 'empathetic' as a good atheist should why not put up some of your money to save him or her?
You already have judged him. Several times.

Again you conjecture and I don't work well with conjectures or emotionality, until such a time you can get us his confession so we can judge it on its criteria and whether coerced or not, your opinion means jack!
Did you read the articles?

How am I inconsistent, is it because I refuse to work with your all too frequent confabulations?
Your typing mannerisms remind me of a small character in the videogame Fable 2.

To topic: you are inconsistent with condemnations. I have seen you hold sympathy for those victims of the many humanitarian crisises within the middle-east and yet reserve no sympathy for those victims of totalitarian regimes. In this instance: You immediately seek to assume Saudi Arabian sovereignty and righteousness in this case, making false claims in the process about the Lebanese man.
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Skavau
04-18-2010, 05:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
The comparison you made between a Jew returning to Nazi state and this punishment is what The vale is referring to .
Oh, I misread a word. That states the confusion then.

Yes it was a crime. According to the people of Saudi Arabia.
You have not answered my question I put to you earlier:

Why should Saudi Arabia be interfering with (or ending in this instance) the life of Lebanese man for a 'crime' (by their book) that he committed not on their soil?

Comparing North Korean dictator to the people of Saudi Arabia is hardly an intelligent analogy.
I didn't make that comparison. I stated that just as we don't accept the totalitarian quasi-theistic ideology of the 'dear leader' of North Korea that represses so many North Koreans - why should we also accept the same from Saudi Arabia?
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جوري
04-18-2010, 05:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I don't post on 'every other thread'. I'd ask you how I am commiting a non-sequitor but you refuse to anser 75% of my question. Nevertheless I will leave it open.
you ask alot of non-questions.. non-questions get no answers!

Absolutely. But all sources are indicating they extracted a 'confession' out of him with the promise of a return home back to Lebanon. All sources indicate they lied when they did that.
Who lied?


Skye, you made the claim that he did his crime with malice. I will even quote you saying this:

"If he survives this I hope it shakes others like him to think twice before interfering with the lives of others with the intent of malice!"

You have no grounds to defend this.
Why else are they persecuting him and extracting a confession? why do you need a confession for something that was already on TV? try to put two and two together you don't need a confession for something already seen by everyone? question remains what was in his confession~!


Medieval 'crimes' ought to be a thing of the past. They ought to not exist. Your statement is about as meaningful as claiming that as saying American crimes should get American punishments.
you mock the type of crime committed yet you don't know the nature of the crime but amazingly so discomfited with the punishment, exactly what are you arguing for or against?


You already have judged him. Several times.
Nope that is your own desire!

Did you read the articles?
?

Your typing mannerisms remind me of a small character in the videogame Fable 2.
your typing style reminds of a patient I started on a banana bag!
To topic: you are inconsistent with condemnations. I have seen you hold sympathy for those victims of the many humanitarian crisises within the middle-east and yet reserve no sympathy for those victims of totalitarian regimes. In this instance: You immediately seek to assume Saudi Arabian sovereignty and righteousness in this case, making false claims in the process about the Lebanese man.
This isn't a matter of 'Saudi sovereignty' it is a matter for the courts and you don't know what it true from fiction.. you merely latch on anything you in your mind deem unethical!
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Skavau
04-18-2010, 05:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye
go back and read what you wrote.. you can't be that drunk!
I misread a word. My apologies. In any case, I asked you to morally defend your statement that victims of repressive governments ought to just be more careful where they choose to go in future. It comes across as amoral and slightly nasty.

I chose this in the form of asking you whether you would be sympathetic to some Jews who entered Nazi Germany in the 1930's. Would you be sympathetic to them or would you suggest they be more careful where they go?

Again, he made a 'confession' we don't know if the confession included a daily horoscope .. horoscopes are given daily on TV no one has lost their head over it in KSA or anywhere else.. you remind me of that other moron Barrio who wrote a woman in KSA is being persecuted for removing her face veil while I posted for him Jeddah filled with uncovered faces.. but how amusing that you should cite articles from folks who have never even been inside KSA with the intent of inciting public outrage!
you shouldn't speak of what you do not know which is practically every other topic!
This article is based on assuming all sources on the topic are inherently deceptive.
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جوري
04-18-2010, 05:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I misread a word. My apologies. In any case, I asked you to morally defend your statement that victims of repressive governments ought to just be more careful where they choose to go in future. It comes across as amoral and slightly nasty.
I stand by it. and in fact in light of that a German nazi who is 80 + yrs old is being persecuted for his crimes committed in Germany here in the U.S.. perhaps he should have found a place more friendly to Nazis? if we are to go by your brand of morality and cordiality?

I chose this in the form of asking you whether you would be sympathetic to some Jews who entered Nazi Germany in the 1930's. Would you be sympathetic to them or would you suggest they be more careful where they go?
and I found this semblance to be an Insult .. I chose to ignore it because the cases aren't similar. you simply write as such to elicit a response should the answer be what you are hoping for.. not only have no conscious but you can't differentiate victim from crime


This article is based on assuming all sources on the topic are inherently deceptive.
I have no reason to believe the claims made therein. try to watch forensic files sometimes or crime TV see how the press and the law are in two separate lanes!

the best you can do is conjecture of things you don't understand to the very core!
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Woodrow
04-18-2010, 05:35 AM
This thread has gone on long past any benefits. Time it went to bed

:threadclo:
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