Idolatry

[Darth Ultor]

As a Jew, from a very young age, I was taught that worshiping idols is a sin. According to the Quran, this is the worst sin a person could commit. Completely unforgivable. But not all idolaters were evil people, never harmed a single person. Gandhi was a Hindu, and though they do use images, they are not fundamentally idolatrous. Despite that, Gandhi was a very good man. It can't be that God simply overlooked all his deeds.

[Predator]

Despite that, Gandhi was a very good man. It can't be that God simply overlooked all his deeds.

Once a person commits the unforgivable sin of shirk , then God doesnt really doesnt not care whether he is a Mother Teresa, Gandhi or an Ariel Sharon, Hitler

He may be rewarded by people for his fame and wealth for his good deeds

But for the hereafter ,Without the right belief ,All good deeds are worthless and those idols which were worshipped are nothing but a pile of garbage which would will be the fuel for the hellfire

And , idol worship is forbidden even in hindu scriptures, so Gandhi is still a wrong doer when judged by his own scriptures

It is mentioned in Bhagavad Gita Chapter 7 verse 20:

“Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires they worship demigods i.e. idols.(Bhagavad Gita 7:20)
ii. Yajurved Chapter 32 Verse 3

“There is no image of Him”

(Svetashvatara Upanishad 4:19, Yajurved 32:3)

iii It is also mentioned in

Yajurveda Chapter 40 verse 9

“They enter darkness those who worship natural things (for e.g. sun ,air, water, fire, etc.). They sink deeper in darkness those who worship sambhuti i.e. created things (for e.g. table, chair, car, idol etc.)

(Yajurved 40:9)


(Yajurveda 40:8)
“He is bodiless and pure”.


Furthermore , it is mentioned

(Bhagwad Geeta 7:20)
“He is one only without a second.”

(Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1)

Of Him there are neither parents nor Lord.”

(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 6:9)

“There is no likeness of Him”.

(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:19

God cant be seen

“His form cannot be seen, no one sees Him with the eye”.
(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:20)

[marwen]

But not all idolaters were evil people, never harmed a single person.

They don't harm people, but they are offending God, that's much worse.

[Asiyah3]

Thought just to clarify, in case Boaz doesn't know.

According to the Quran, this is the worst sin a person could commit. Completely unforgivable.

Allaah has told us that he will forgive all sins for the one who repents to Him. This includes all sins, even shirk. Whoever repents, Allaah will accept his repentance.

“Say: ‘O ‘Ibaadi (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allaah, verily, Allaah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful’”

[al-Zumar 39:53]

The gate of repentance is open until the sun rises from the west or before the soul reaches the throat [at death]. After that yeah, there is no repentance.

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[Alpha Dude]

The Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) own uncle Abu Talib wasn't forgiven in this regard either, despite all the help he extended and his kind nature. Just shows the gravity of the sin.

['Abd Al-Maajid]

...
It is mentioned in Bhagavad Gita Chapter 7 verse 20:

“Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires they worship demigods i.e. idols.(Bhagavad Gita 7:20)
ii. Yajurved Chapter 32 Verse 3

“There is no image of Him”

(Svetashvatara Upanishad 4:19, Yajurved 32:3)

iii It is also mentioned in

Yajurveda Chapter 40 verse 9

“They enter darkness those who worship natural things (for e.g. sun ,air, water, fire, etc.). They sink deeper in darkness those who worship sambhuti i.e. created things (for e.g. table, chair, car, idol etc.)

(Yajurved 40:9)


(Yajurveda 40:8)
“He is bodiless and pure”.


Furthermore , it is mentioned

(Bhagwad Geeta 7:20)
“He is one only without a second.”

(Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1)

Of Him there are neither parents nor Lord.”

(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 6:9)

“There is no likeness of Him”.

(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:19

God cant be seen

“His form cannot be seen, no one sees Him with the eye”.
(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:20)

That means Hinduism has been infiltrated...:?

[Predator]

Thought just to clarify, in case Boaz doesn't know.


Allaah has told us that he will forgive all sins for the one who repents to Him. This includes all sins, even shirk. Whoever repents, Allaah will accept his repentance.

“Say: ‘O ‘Ibaadi (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allaah, verily, Allaah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful’”

[al-Zumar 39:53]

The gate of repentance is open until the sun rises from the west or before the soul reaches the throat [at death]. After that yeah, there is no repentance.

True.

The Jews worshipped the Golden calf and then Moses (PBUH) smashed the calf and then they seeked repentance and Allah forgave them.

If they had not repented before their death , then they would have been punished

[Supreme]

As a Jew, from a very young age, I was taught that worshiping idols is a sin. According to the Quran, this is the worst sin a person could commit. Completely unforgivable. But not all idolaters were evil people, never harmed a single person. Gandhi was a Hindu, and though they do use images, they are not fundamentally idolatrous. Despite that, Gandhi was a very good man. It can't be that God simply overlooked all his deeds.

Well, I see little point in worshipping something that somebody equal to me has created. It has no supernatural powers, no thoughts, no intelligence- and idols can be destroyed just as easily as they are created. Idol worshipping is generally pointless anyway- what reward could and idol possibly grant you for worshipping it? There's no simply no feasible rationale.

[Pygoscelis]

Once a person commits the unforgivable sin of shirk , then God doesnt really doesnt not care whether he is a Mother Teresa, Gandhi or an Ariel Sharon, Hitler

Faith over works. Ghandi in hell and a repentant Hitler in heaven. Truly a disturbing concept. This is one of the primary reasons why I have always found Christianity, Judaism and Islam to be such objectionable and potentially dangerous religions. It highlights once again that Obedience is key, not morality.

Why would a creator of the universe care so much that his creation (which he purportedly gave free will not to) worship him? It sounds like he has self esteem issues and needs constant patting on the back. That doesn't befit an all powerful creator of the universe. But it sure does fit what leaders of man would want in a religion they created. Only through religion can you get people to self monitor to adhere to your agenda. Only in religion can you get people thinking that not only are you Big Brother but you are actually Big Brother with constant awareness of what people THINK.

[Supreme]

Faith over works. Ghandi in hell and a repentant Hitler in heaven. Truly a disturbing concept. This is one of the primary reasons why I have always found Christianity, Judaism and Islam to be such objectionable and potentially dangerous religions. It highlights once again that Obedience is key, not morality.

Why would a creator of the universe care so much that his creation (which he purportedly gave free will not to) worship him? It sounds like he has self esteem issues and needs constant patting on the back. That doesn't befit an all powerful creator of the universe. But it sure does fit what leaders of man would want in a religion they created. Only through religion can you get people to self monitor to adhere to your agenda. Only in religion can you get people thinking that not only are you Big Brother but you are actually Big Brother with constant awareness of what people THINK.

I must say, I do agree with virtually everything in your post. Why does a diety need to worshipped- it does indeed sound like He's lacking in confidence. An all powerful being that demands to be worshipped by His far inferior creation and punishes those who don't worship Him simply doesn't sound worthy of worship. I assure you, this was, and indeed is, the concept I've most struggled with since converting to Christianity. A jealous diety that demands to be worshipped by His creation due to confidence issues doesn't quite match the all powerful being the Abrahamic religions portray Him.

[Skavau]

They don't harm people, but they are offending God, that's much worse.

A thoroughly disturbing sentence. The claim I quite frequently make stands wholly true in light of it. Theistic morality is only concerned with obedience to God, and the subservience towards God. Humanity is a secondary concern, and if God was to will it by definition a non-concern.

[Skavau]

Well, I see little point in worshipping something that somebody equal to me has created. It has no supernatural powers, no thoughts, no intelligence- and idols can be destroyed just as easily as they are created. Idol worshipping is generally pointless anyway- what reward could and idol possibly grant you for worshipping it? There's no simply no feasible rationale.

The idea that someone deliberately worships idols is a misnomer and a bigoted characterisation born from the evangelical roots of the main Abrahamic religions. Many religious beliefs often accused of worshipping idols do not themselves believe they are. They would say that they are worshipping a real, tangible deity (or deities). Often when Muslims claim that other beliefs worship idols they are actually just claiming that they aren't observing the correct God and then immediately claim idolatry as if it has some recognisable objective meaning.

In any case, I'm slightly interested in knowing that you lace all worship motivation with some sort of self-interest in gaining reward.

[marwen]

A thoroughly disturbing sentence. The claim I quite frequently make stands wholly true in light of it. Theistic morality is only concerned with obedience to God, and the subservience towards God. Humanity is a secondary concern, and if God was to will it by definition a non-concern.

You have the right to make these thoughts. But just to clarify, I didn't say it's ok to harm people, but I said : for a believer, it's more horrible to offend God than to offend people, but harming people is horrible too. I'm sure you understand the difference.

[Skavau]

You have the right to make these thoughts. But just to clarify, I didn't say it's ok to harm people, but I said : for a believer, it's more horrible to offend God than to offend people, but harming people is horrible too. I'm sure you understand the difference.

I didn't imply that you believed it was okay to harm people. I meant to state that you by your own moral philosophy, you cannot have any regard for anything outside of God. That all moral objectives and moral obligations have to necessarily fall under the umbrella of pleasing the divine arbiter. That humanity pales in comparison to obeying God. It is the ultimate in subservience.

[marwen]

I didn't imply that you believed it was okay to harm people. I meant to state that you by your own moral philosophy, you cannot have any regard for anything outside of God. That all moral objectives and moral obligations have to necessarily fall under the umbrella of pleasing the divine arbiter. That humanity pales in comparison to obeying God. It is the ultimate in subservience.

Why do you think that pleasing God can be opposite to morality. Personally I have my human understanding of morality independently from my beliefs, and If I were Atheist, I don't think my vision to morality will change. But I found also that obeying to God's orders is not contradictory with morality. I found that God orders us to be kind with people and to not be unjust with them. And just to let you know, in my religion (Islam), harming people is a sin, and if I hurt someone intentionally I will be disobediant for God's orders.

[Alpha Dude]

Faith over works. Ghandi in hell and a repentant Hitler in heaven. Truly a disturbing concept. This is one of the primary reasons why I have always found Christianity, Judaism and Islam to be such objectionable and potentially dangerous religions. It highlights once again that Obedience is key, not morality.

Hitler in heaven, after sincere repentance, actually shows the mercy of God.

We all make mistakes* and nobody is perfect so ultimately, we should always have the chance to realise our mistakes and seek forgiveness for them. In fact, one could argue that it would be unfair for God to not forgive if the repentance is sincere since he is the one that created us imperfect in the first place.

* yes of course, Hitler's 'mistake' is a really huge one, but let's accept it is just that, a mistake, for argument's sake.

The atheist's conception of what is moral is subjective. It differs from people to people and culture to culture.

Why would a creator of the universe care so much that his creation (which he purportedly gave free will not to) worship him?

Due to it being our eternity that is on the line, we are the ones that need to care where we end up, not Allah.

The parents of a rebellious child would consider the child to be in need of punishment for not acknowledging their existence and further going against the rules set by them.

Similar thing, in principle, with God.

It sounds like he has self esteem issues and needs constant patting on the back.

If God really had self esteem issues, he would use his power to literally force us to be in a constant state of worship. Yet we have been given freewill to deny worship.

Only through religion can you get people to self monitor to adhere to your agenda.

Not true at all. There are several ways in which people can be made to adhere to a third person's agenda.

Living in a rented house, you must sign a contract saying you agree to abide by the landlord's rules (eg. no pets). Going to school, you must follow rules such as no fighting etc. Same with college/university (eg. no collusion/plagiarism). Even a mother telling her young boy to not walk in the house with mud on his shoes will get that child to self monitor to adhere to the mother's agenda of keeping the house clean.

Many such places/situations/institutions set out laws for people to follow. Day to day, we find ourselves involved in these 'contracts' and hence we keep ourselves in check in order to avoid punitive measures/breaking of contract (which would prove detrimental to us in the long run, not the people on the other end of the contract).

A thoroughly disturbing sentence. The claim I quite frequently make stands wholly true in light of it. Theistic morality is only concerned with obedience to God, and the subservience towards God. Humanity is a secondary concern, and if God was to will it by definition a non-concern.

I think you struggle to understand that there is no such thing as morality independent of God. Nothing can exist independent of God. All that we know and understand have been created by him, including what we judge as being moral.

[Supreme]

That's a misquote- Skavau said that, not me.

[Alpha Dude]

That's a misquote- Skavau said that, not me.

Sorry, I've corrected it.

[Skavau]

Why do you think that pleasing God can be opposite to morality.

I don't say it is opposite to morality, I say that it is fundamentally amoral. I contend that morality is a system of behavioural constraint based upon how one ought or ought not act in the context of a community of people. When your moral priorities are first to please God, and carry out what God wants before the consideration of humanity then I think you have a glorified system of obedience to authority (God).

Personally I have my human understanding of morality independently from my beliefs, and If I were Atheist, I don't think my vision to morality will change. But I found also that obeying to God's orders is not contradictory with morality. I found that God orders us to be kind with people and to not be unjust with them. And just to let you know, in my religion (Islam), harming people is a sin, and if I hurt someone intentionally I will be disobediant for God's orders.

Right, this isn't quite what I was getting at. I know that you believe God condemns things such as the harming of other people. I know that you believe that God condemns such as rape, theft, etc - and there's nothing wrong with that per se.

However the specific issue is that if you really, truly believe that all moral ideas originate from God's word then you have a moral problem. You couldn't, by your own reckoning believe that murder is wrong because of the impact that it has on other. You could not, by your own reckoning claim that rape is wrong due to the suffering of those it is inflicted on. You could only say that you disapprove because God happens to disapprove. You could only measure what is right based on whether or not God happens to agree.

That is what so concerns me.

[Skavau]

Hitler in heaven, after sincere repentance, actually shows the mercy of God.

Well, yes. It could. However, a good person who dies without knowledge of the God and therefore suffers eternal torment shows a very different image of God. You must know how it comes across to an observer.

The atheist's conception of what is moral is subjective. It differs from people to people and culture to culture.

Everyone's conception of what is or is not moral happens to be subjective. Some people derive their moral understanding from Christianity (and all of its sects). Some people derive it from Islam. Others derive it from Sikhism, Hinduism, Baha'i, Scientology, Shinto, Taoism, Zoroastarianism, Paganism, Confucanism, Buddhism and the list goes on.

Merely claiming to hold a viewpoint that is allegedly 'objective' does not mean anything pragmatically.

Due to it being our eternity that is on the line, we are the ones that need to care where we end up, not Allah.

That was not his question. Pygoscelis asked why the creator has such a vested interest in our capacity to worship and acknowledge him. You cannot very well answer and say it is because our eternity is on the line because it is not a necessary symptom in this case. God, allegedly being interested in our perspective of him created or allowed heaven and hell to exist after deciding he would get involved.

So the logical question is why is God so interested in whether or not we obey him or not so much so that he invokes an afterlife based on our success or not?

The parents of a rebellious child would consider the child to be in need of punishment for not acknowledging their existence and further going against the rules set by them.

Similar thing, in principle, with God.

What a horrendous parody parenthood and pathetic justification of atrocity. What parents do you know that threaten their children with torment for not obeying commands? What parents do you know that demand unquestionable obedience and persistent recognition of their neverending authority for the duration of your childhood, or even (keeping with the 'God' comparison) your entire life? God represents the father that is never going to leave. Never going to stop watching, judging and making demands of you in life. Is that how you want to represent parenthood?

If God really had self esteem issues, he would use his power to literally force us to be in a constant state of worship. Yet we have been given freewill to deny worship.

But that would be an automation, wouldn't it. If God is interested in being recognised, and so virulently then it could not be satisfied through programming us into submission. It could only be determined by him attempting to convince others to observe him. At any rate, why is it then that failure to believe and worship God commands such a tortorous and malevolent punishment?

Indeed, I suggest you keep this in mind as it is as true to me as it is to others. I do not believe in a God not because of some spiteful disobedience, or as some arrogant belief that I do not need to - but simply do not believe in a deity entirely because I am not convinced. I simply do not believe it likely that a divine being exists. I do go so far as to state that I actually cannot believe in a God until specific evidence or logical argument has been presented sufficiently. Are you to say that my sincerity born from my free-will that God decreed I should have would be my downfall? It would be my confession towards my punishment? How can you defend the concept of someone that would punish people entirely for getting their information wrong?

I think you struggle to understand that there is no such thing as morality independent of God. Nothing can exist independent of God. All that we know and understand have been created by him, including what we judge as being moral.

This, of course is what you believe. I should ask you what precisely this means here as far as you are concerned as with the greatest respect, it comes across as rhetoric to me.

[Pygoscelis]

Hitler in heaven, after sincere repentance, actually shows the mercy of God.

Ok, then what about Ghandi in hell? Can you not see the rather massive disconnect here with the moral person going to hell and the immoral going to heaven?

And what if Ghandi went to hell and THEN sincerely repented (now seeing which religious beliefs were correct). Its too late then under the abrahamic religions, right? So what happened to this mercy mentioned? Hitler can make good after doing all he did, but Ghandi can't because of bad timing?

The atheist's conception of what is moral is subjective. It differs from people to people and culture to culture.

To a certain extent, sure. But this is no different with theists. Theists have just codified the moral values into holy texts and attributed them to Gods, and then added a whole bunch more that benefits the leaders and controls the believers.

Theists and atheists also both have their own inate moral compass' (with a few sociopathic exceptions) independent of society and religion. Some hardcore religious folks just may have burried it so far under religious dogma that they no longer see its there. They are not sociopaths.

The parents of a rebellious child would consider the child to be in need of punishment for not acknowledging their existence and further going against the rules set by them.

Not an analogy that works favorably for the theist. If God is a parent to mankind, he's an abusive parent. He kills his children, drowns them, tells other children to stone them, etc. He punishes them for eternity for minute disobediences, disobediences to dictates that are questionable in their morality to begin with.

If God really had self esteem issues, he would use his power to literally force us to be in a constant state of worship. Yet we have been given freewill to deny worship.

How would having mindless robots just do what they were programmed to do help with self esteem issues?

Not true at all. There are several ways in which people can be made to adhere to a third person's agenda.

Nothing you mentioned involves self monitoring. These people living under these rules you mention will often break these rules when nobody is watching them. Religion has the added benefit of making you think you are ALWAYS being watched. God always sees you. God always knows what you do. And not only that, he knows what you THINK. It is the ultimate form of monitoring and control.

I think you struggle to understand that there is no such thing as morality independent of God.

If somebody's sense of morality boils down to "What god says is good, and what god doesn't want is evil", if its just obedience to God and nothing more, then they are prime pickings for a terrorist cell, cool aid cult, or televangelist scam.

[جوري]

Ok, then what about Ghandi in hell? Can you not see the rather massive disconnect here .

I am not going to touch on the fact that we don't know who is going where in the hereafter but thought you might be interested to know that I have known many Indians (Sikhs especially) who couldn't stand Ghandi.. and had many unflattering things to say about him.. so just because you perceive someone as good maybe because Ben Kingsley was so convincing in a large diaper doesn't have bearing on the actual man's character in real life.. Now you can always state your grievances should should you find yourself born anew to an eternal life but I think that day you'll be more concerned with your own state of affairs than that of a hypothetical repentant Hitler or a satanic Ghandi!

all the best

[Pygoscelis]

Though this is moot, as I was using Ghandi as an example of somebody who does good but does not believe in God (You may substitute any other such person if Ghandi doesn't meet your criteria), I would agree that Ghandi has had his good reputation overinflated. I've read that he was actually quite a racist. Pen and Teller did a nice little expose piece on him (in conjunction to the one they did on Mother Theresa).

Actually, to better make the point I was making in the previous post, substitute in yourself. Imagine you die and find out that some God other than Allah turned out to be the right one. You are then judged not on your good deeds, but tossed into hell for not worshiping this particular God (who you right now are certain doesn't exist). Meanwhile Hitler repents sincerely five minutes before his death and worships this God, and goes to Heaven. Now do you see the disconnect?

[Lynx]

And God is supposed to be 'unlike' his creation. He sounds like the local emperor you'd find about 2000 or so years ago. Coincidence?

[جوري]

Though this is moot, as I was using Ghandi as an example of somebody who does good but does not believe in God (You may substitute any other such person if Ghandi doesn't meet your criteria), I would agree that Ghandi has had his good reputation overinflated. I've read that he was actually quite a racist. Pen and Teller did a nice little expose piece on him (in conjunction to the one they did on Mother Theresa).

Nobody really knows anybody so you should use the same logic with Ghandi and extend it to mother Theresa .. who knows what she was getting or doing on the side?.. it isn't so inconceivable that one can live a double life.. and under either circumstance is inconsequential!

Actually, to better make the point I was making in the previous post, substitute in yourself. Imagine you die and find out that some God other than Allah turned out to be the right one. You are then judged not on your good deeds, but tossed into hell for not worshiping this particular God (who you right now are certain doesn't exist). Meanwhile Hitler repents sincerely five minutes before his death and worships this God, and goes to Heaven. Now do you see the disconnect?

I don't see how I can? I worship the God of the universe, creator of the heaven and earth and all that is in between, and there can be no other God... however, I guess we'll have to wait and find out as stated in the Quran:

فَارْتَقِبْ إِنَّهُم مُّرْتَقِبُونَ {59}
[Pickthal 44:59] Wait then-- Lo! they (too) are waiting.

all the best

[Predator]

Actually, to better make the point I was making in the previous post, substitute in yourself. Imagine you die and find out that some God other than Allah turned out to be the right one. You are then judged not on your good deeds, but tossed into hell for not worshiping this particular God (who you right now are certain doesn't exist). Meanwhile Hitler repents sincerely five minutes before his death and worships this God, and goes to Heaven. Now do you see the disconnect?

If that other "God" who turns out to be the right one and if he didnt warn u , then he would be an unjust God . And A God is perfect and Just .

Islam asserts that God will judge everyone according to their circumstances. Consequently, it is not for Muslims to say whether someone, either living or deceased, will enter hell .

We cannot rule whether such people are believers or unbelievers, because disbelieving means to deny something, while in their case, they did not know about the message from the first instance. As they were neither believers nor unbelievers, they should have a different ruling on the Day of Judgment.

Even if we were to say that they are unbelievers, then we would still have to say that the precondition for unbelievers to be punished in the Hereafter has not been realized in their case. They have to be warned first. Allah will not punish people without a previous warning. This warning should be in the language that the person understands.

God says: 'Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).' [Sûrah al-Isrâ: 15]

People who have never had an opportunity to come to know about Islam will be tested by God on the Day of Judgment. Those who pass the test and obey the commands will go to Paradise and those who are disobedient will go to Hell.

God knows best who has heard His message properly and rejected it and who has not done so. The most we can say that it is obligatory for all people to accept Islam and that anyone who knowingly rejects the truth of Islam is condemned in the Hereafter. However, it is not our place to state exactly what God is going to do with each and every individual on the Day of Judgment. God is the only one who knows the hearts of people and their circumstances, and He is the only one who will sit in judgment. We must trust in Him.

[Pygoscelis]

If that other "God" who turns out to be the right one and if he didnt warn u , then he would be an unjust God .

But he did warn you. There are hundreds if not thousands of Gods we may hear of, each being claimed to be the True God. You no doubt have encountered at least two or three of these in your own life amongst others you've met or read. You dismiss their claims as false, because you believe Allah to be the one true God, but if you turn out to be wrong, and they turn out to be right... then you've had as much warning as I've had regarding Allah (who I don't believe exists). We'd be in the same position regarding this other god, who neither of us believe in but both of us have been warned about.

[جوري]

But he did warn you. There are hundreds if not thousands of Gods we may hear of, each being claimed to be the True God. You no doubt have encountered at least two or three of these in your own life amongst others you've met or read. You dismiss their claims as false, because you believe Allah to be the one true God, but if you turn out to be wrong, and they turn out to be right... then you've had as much warning as I've had regarding Allah (who I don't believe exists). We'd be in the same position regarding this other god, who neither of us believe in but both of us have been warned about.

where have the 'hundred thousand gods' warned us that they are the true god?

[Skavau]

where have the 'hundred thousand gods' warned us that they are the true god?

Pygo is speaking philosophically. If Islam is not true you would have been misled. If another God, or a different interpretation of God happens to be true then he may judge you just as Muslims claim Allah will judge us.

Christians claim that you have been warned to repent and accept Jesus as your personal saviour. You, as a Muslim necessarily do not believe that such is true and consider Jesus as a prophet rather than part of a trinity but nonetheless Christians would claim, with just as much conviction as you that Christianity is true and God has given you the message to convert to Christianity. You, obviously would dispute this and claim no, Christianity is illogical, it is a fabrication and Islam came to replace it and that is fair enough, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Just as you would ask where other Gods have made their presence felt, I would ask where has Islam made its presence felt. Just as you may point to the Qu'ran, Christians will point to the Bible. Just as you may point to specific historical events, Christians will indeed point to theirs (miracle of the sun). Both of you believe each other ignorant of the true God's message.

[جوري]

Pygo is speaking philosophically. If Islam is not true you would have been misled. If another God, or a different interpretation of God happens to be true then he may judge you just as Muslims claim Allah will judge us.

in order for me to accept the premise the question has to have some semblance of truth..and your friend pyg hasn't established that truth, for instance I asked him to show me where the ''hundreds of thousands of gods'' said that they are the true gods and he hasn't been able to provide me with that yet, again like many of your own questions are established on empty air!

Christians claim that you have been warned to repent and accept Jesus as your personal saviour. You, as a Muslim necessarily do not believe that such is true and consider Jesus as a prophet rather than part of a trinity but nonetheless Christians would claim, with just as much conviction as you that Christianity is true and God has given you the message to convert to Christianity. You, obviously would dispute this and claim no, Christianity is illogical, it is a fabrication and Islam came to replace it and that is fair enough, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Muslims believe in the God is the christians and the Jews, he isn't a different God.. they argue of the nature and that is easily established .. there is no point beseeching and praying to a man who couldn't ward off a couple of provincial jews conspiring against him.. the fact that they have no use for logic in their religion doesn't mean that theirs is the correct god surely a god who couldn't take on a couple of oafs can't take on 6 billion of this century alone! it just means that they are pitiable as many who preceded them and many that will proceed!

Just as you would ask where other Gods have made their presence felt, I would ask where has Islam made its presence felt. Just as you may point to the Qu'ran, Christians will point to the Bible. Just as you may point to specific historical events, Christians will indeed point to theirs (miracle of the sun). Both of you believe each other ignorant of the true God's message.

We are not talking of 'God's presence' that is your own addendum and interjection that you like to introduce into many of your posts and then get P.Od when the discussion doesn't go into the direction you created as a theme for everyone! Everything in creation is enough to establish the truth of God.. the same way I don't need to see a bee to know where the honey came from. I am not going to argue the Quran vs. another text with you because that is a very expansive topic and I generally don't get into philosophical topics with atheists from experience I have found that they are unable to establish themselves above fairies and celestial bodies and I frankly can think of a thousand better use of my time!

all the best

[Supreme]

But he did warn you. There are hundreds if not thousands of Gods we may hear of, each being claimed to be the True God. You no doubt have encountered at least two or three of these in your own life amongst others you've met or read. You dismiss their claims as false, because you believe Allah to be the one true God, but if you turn out to be wrong, and they turn out to be right... then you've had as much warning as I've had regarding Allah (who I don't believe exists). We'd be in the same position regarding this other god, who neither of us believe in but both of us have been warned about.

I have to say, your posts are amongst the best I have encountered. They're the variety that make me think. Your posts make me think 'Well, if you put it like that... I guess you have a very good point.' I especially like the end bit. You and I would be in the exact same position if it turned out that Brahman, or Allah, or Baal, or any other of the thousands of gods turned out to be the true god and it happened that neither of us believed in him. Every religion claims to be true, and eveyr religion claims to have warned mankind enough. Essentially, all it boils down to is faithin one particular religion, or the lack of faith.

[Skavau]

in order for me to accept the premise the question has to have some semblance of truth..and your friend pyg hasn't established that truth, for instance I asked him to show me where the ''hundreds of thousands of gods'' said that they are the true gods and he hasn't been able to provide me with that yet, again like many of your own questions are established on empty air!

You took the question in absolute literalism? Pygoscelis is an atheist and he is speaking hypothetically. In actuality, I am as you know yet to be convinced that Allah exists and therefore resultedly yet to be convinced that Allah has ever made the claim he is the true God. I hear Muslims make claims that Allah is true, and I see a book referred to as the Qu'ran also makes these claims but I am yet to be convinced that they originated from Allah.

The question should perhaps be rephrased: Millions of people historically up to the modern day have made the claim that their understanding and conception of God is true. There have been many reports and concoctions of thousands of different Gods. If one of the many thousands of hypothetical Gods that you reject happens to be true then you would have had as much warning as I, or any other non-muslim does towards Allah.

Muslims believe in the God is the christians and the Jews, he isn't a different God.. they argue of the nature and that is easily established .. there is no point beseeching and praying to a man who couldn't ward off a couple of provincial jews conspiring against him.. the fact that they have no use for logic in their religion doesn't mean that theirs is the correct god surely a god who couldn't take on a couple of oafs can't take on 6 billion of this century alone! it just means that they are pitiable as many who preceded them and many that will proceed!

This... does not matter.

I am not interested in arguing for against whether or not Christianity is more rational than Islam. My point was that if Christianity happens to be true, and the character of God happens to be so that you will be judged and affected negatively because of it - then you would have had just as much warning as I have regarding Islam.

We are not talking of 'God's presence' that is your own addendum and interjection that you like to introduce into many of your posts and then get P.Od when the discussion doesn't go into the direction you created as a theme for everyone! Everything in creation is enough to establish the truth of God..

You have no idea about what is being suggested do you? We are not discussing whether or not God actually exists or not. We are talking about the claim that we have been sufficiently warned that Allah happens to be true. I and presumably Pygoscelis suggest that it is simply not true. Millions of people have not had sufficient warning of Islam or else they would have converted. Also there is a subjective and consequently meaningless element of it: Millions of other people can claim and do claim the exact same about the deity they profess to be true. A Christian will say that everyone has had enough information to know they ought to repent towards Jesus just as virulently as a Muslim might claim everyone ought to accept Allah as God and Muhammed as his messenger.

the same way I don't need to see a bee to know where the honey came from. I am not going to argue the Quran vs. another text with you because that is a very expansive topic and I generally don't get into philosophical topics with atheists from experience I have found that they are unable to establish themselves above fairies and celestial bodies and I frankly can think of a thousand better use of my time!

Apparently, you don't seem to understand that in this instance, me and Pygoscelis are not edging towards arguments that attempt to nullify God's existence.

[جوري]

You took the question in absolute literalism? Pygoscelis is an atheist and he is speaking hypothetically. In actuality, I am as you know yet to be convinced that Allah exists and therefore resultedly yet to be convinced that Allah has ever made the claim he is the true God. I hear Muslims make claims that Allah is true, and I see a book referred to as the Qu'ran also makes these claims but I am yet to be convinced that they originated from Allah.

I told you before that I don't entertain a 'hypothetical' they are a waste of everyone's time!
as for what you personally believe or disbelieve, that is indeed your prerogative, we all have the free will to live and believe as we choose. It isn't incumbent on anyone to do more than you personally request!
and to use the Quran to assert that point:
قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ قَدْ جَاءكُمُ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ فَمَنِ اهْتَدَى فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا وَمَا أَنَاْ عَلَيْكُم بِوَكِيلٍ {108}
[Pickthal 10:108] Say: O mankind! Now hath the Truth from your Lord come unto you. So whosoever is guided, is guided only for (the good of) his soul, and whosoever erreth erreth only against it. And I am not a warder over you.

The question should perhaps be rephrased: Millions of people historically up to the modern day have made the claim that their understanding and conception of God is true. There have been many reports and concoctions of thousands of different Gods. If one of the many thousands of hypothetical Gods that you reject happens to be true then you would have had as much warning as I, or any other non-muslim does towards Allah.

He made the specific claim that 'hundreds of thousands of gods' say they are the true gods, I expect to see their scriptures and put it to the test.. yes indeed even american idol produces little mini gods, there is even a porcelain god according to some, I need validation to the hypothetical he or you are making!

This... does not matter.

It does indeed when you make a claim of 'different god' simply to add to your list!

I am not interested in arguing for against whether or not Christianity is more rational than Islam. My point was that if Christianity happens to be true, and the character of God happens to be so that you will be judged and affected negatively because of it - then you would have had just as much warning as I have regarding Islam.

If you are not going to get specific into details then there is no point making an argument about those many gods to begin with, wouldn't you agree, I mean surely if you desire someone to think and agree along your thought tracks then that is best accomplished with another atheists on an atheist forum, further you brought the specific example of Jesus, therefore you can't simply rescind your point of view simply because the discussion went into the direction that you originally initiated, the god who gave up his life because he so loved people then surely will have a difficult time throwing a Muslim in hell for being emotionally scarred by the concept of a dying god and failing to reconcile it as well with his all loving nature!

You have no idea about what is being suggested do you? We are not discussing whether or not God actually exists or not. We are talking about the claim that we have been sufficiently warned that Allah happens to be true. I and presumably Pygoscelis suggest that it is simply not true. Millions of people have not had sufficient warning of Islam or else they would have converted. Also there is a subjective and consequently meaningless element of it: Millions of other people can claim and do claim the exact same about the deity they profess to be true. A Christian will say that everyone has had enough information to know they ought to repent towards Jesus just as virulently as a Muslim might claim everyone ought to accept Allah as God and Muhammed as his messenger.

and he was answered appropriately and evinced from the Quran itself that no one will be punished who hasn't received the message, in fact I can't think of the many times this specific query has been answered, it is as if none of you ever read anything and so satisfied with your overly simplistic conclusions and equally absurd queries. Some people's trials in fact begin on the day of recompense, further more the claim that this group is going to hell and this in heaven has also been addressed. Only God knows who belongs to which end..

Apparently, you don't seem to understand that in this instance, me and Pygoscelis are not edging towards arguments that attempt to nullify God's existence.

Indeed, the above is specific to an argument you've made and I quote:

I would ask where has Islam made its presence felt.

which in and of itself had nothing to do with the discussion, pls don't come and blame me for meandering the topic and then suggesting that I should address your pal in the process!

all the best

[Skavau]

I told you before that I don't entertain a 'hypothetical' they are a waste of everyone's time!
as for what you personally believe or disbelieve, that is indeed your prerogative, we all have the free will to live and believe as we choose. It isn't incumbent on anyone to do more than you personally request!

Uh... okay?

He made the specific claim that 'hundreds of thousands of gods' say they are the true gods, I expect to see their scriptures and put it to the test.. yes indeed even american idol produces little mini gods, there is even a porcelain god according to some, I need validation to the hypothetical he or you are making!

You can answer your own question. He's an atheist. He does not believe in any God(s), so obviously he does not believe any God has ever claimed to be the one true God. He was, and as I have said: referring to the fact that people across the world historically and up to the present day have always made the claim that the God they believe in is true.

If you are not going to get specific into details then there is no point making an argument about those many gods to begin with, wouldn't you agree, I mean surely if you desire someone to think and agree along your thought tracks then that is best accomplished with another atheists on an atheist forum, further you brought the specific example of Jesus, therefore you can't simply rescind your point of view simply because the discussion went into the direction that you originally initiated, the god who gave up his life because he so loved people then surely will have a difficult time throwing a Muslim in hell for being emotionally scarred by the concept of a dying god and failing to reconcile it as well with his all loving nature!

I have not resinded anything. The specific differences between Islam and Christianity have nothing to do with what I was talking about. You, as usual, didn't understand what was said and concluded I was arguing about something completely different.

The irony however, of the part in bold is just priceless. Don't you also believe in an omnibenevolent God that will judge people and put them in hell?

and he was answered appropriately and evinced from the Quran itself that no one will be punished who hasn't received the message, in fact I can't think of the many times this specific query has been answered, it is as if none of you ever read anything and so satisfied with your overly simplistic conclusions and equally absurd queries. Some people's trials in fact begin on the day of recompense, further more the claim that this group is going to hell and this in heaven has also been addressed. Only God knows who belongs to which end..

Okay then. I know you have said this. I know you have said that only God knows who is going to hell, and yes I am aware that you have also said that those who have not received the message will not be punished. Perhaps you should understand that Pygoscelis was not addressing you when he originally said what he said, but rather was addressing Airforce.

which in and of itself had nothing to do with the discussion, pls don't come and blame me for meandering the topic and then suggesting that I should address your pal in the process!

Yes, I did say "I would ask where Islam has made its presence felt". However, I will not be taken out of context by you and I will post precisely what I said and what I meant specifically by it to further demonstrate you don't bother to read what people say:

Just as you would ask where other Gods have made their presence felt, I would ask where has Islam made its presence felt. Just as you may point to the Qu'ran, Christians will point to the Bible. Just as you may point to specific historical events, Christians will indeed point to theirs (miracle of the sun). Both of you believe each other ignorant of the true God's message.

It was a paragraph talking about how subjective people's experiences are, how similar many people's religious beliefs are pragmatically, and how vacuous the claim is that perhaps we have been given the information about X religion. I was not opening a debate up about in what way, and whether at all Allah has intervened in human affairs.

For shame for misrepresenting.

[جوري]

Uh... okay?

Indeed!

You can answer your own question. He's an atheist. He does not believe in any God(s), so obviously he does not believe any God has ever claimed to be the one true God. He was, and as I have said: referring to the fact that people across the world historically and up to the present day have always made the claim that the God they believe in is true.

He made a specific example, I expect that he back it up.. you can't merely brandish around a 'hundred thousand gods' and not make a case for them!

I have not resinded anything. The specific differences between Islam and Christianity have nothing to do with what I was talking about. You, as usual, didn't understand what was said and concluded I was arguing about something completely different.

why don't you introduce a new spin to the topic and then see if you can coalesce it to mean something different when the noose tightens around your neck!

The irony however, of the part in bold is just priceless. Don't you also believe in an omnibenevolent God that will judge people and put them in hell?

I have always maintained that God is just.. I never asserted that God loved everyone!
you see you'd pick up alot if you'd read more and yap less!

Okay then. I know you have said this. I know you have said that only God knows who is going to hell, and yes I am aware that you have also said that those who have not received the message will not be punished. Perhaps you should understand that Pygoscelis was not addressing you when he originally said what he said, but rather was addressing Airforce.

All Muslims on the tradition share the same point of view, we are all subscribers to the same message, his reply will not suddenly change because he addressed zaid or ubaid or the lily of the valley!

Yes, I did say "I would ask where Islam has made its presence felt". However, I will not be taken out of context by you and I will post precisely what I said and what I meant specifically by it to further demonstrate you don't bother to read what people say:

That seems like an adequate reply that you should direct to yourself in fact, perhaps then you'd come up with a better response that this was addressed to br. Airforce?

It was a paragraph talking about how subjective people's experiences are, how similar many people's religious beliefs are pragmatically, and how vacuous the claim is that perhaps we have been given the information about X religion. I was not opening a debate up about in what way, and whether at all Allah has intervened in human affairs.

An experience isn't the message and the logic in it or lack thereof and that is what the topic is about.. check with the title 'Idolatry' and see if what you or what he writes are in concert, if you are going to play devil's advocate you can at least do us the honor of sticking to the topic and backing up what you write!

For shame for misrepresenting.

more humbug!
God's message should be free of hyperbole.. for surely that is the atheist portal!

all the best

[Alpha Dude]

Well, yes. It could. However, a good person who dies without knowledge of the God and therefore suffers eternal torment shows a very different image of God. You must know how it comes across to an observer.

People that die before the message has reached them are not held accountable.

Denial after the message has been received is worthy of punishment, however. Allah has said he is Most Just. He wouldn't punish without reason. Therefore, the implication is that the signs of Allah and the signs of Islam's truth must be so manifest, that there is no sound basis for us to reject them.

Regardless of if you hold otherwise (i.e. 'if they were so clear all would be muslim'), this is our position. We are told the the truth stands clear from falsehood and we hold tight to that.

As to why people reject faith after receiving the message - some reasons might include looking at the religion with insincerity, deliberate arrogance in rejecting, desire to stick to what their forefather's believed without paying attention to the apparent signs. Even being led astray by shaytan himself. God knows best what an individual's reasons for rejection are.

That was not his question. Pygoscelis asked why the creator has such a vested interest in our capacity to worship and acknowledge him. You cannot very well answer and say it is because our eternity is on the line because it is not a necessary symptom in this case. God, allegedly being interested in our perspective of him created or allowed heaven and hell to exist after deciding he would get involved.

So the logical question is why is God so interested in whether or not we obey him or not so much so that he invokes an afterlife based on our success or not?

We can never answer such a question why, as it beyond our realm. Only Allah can tell us things about why he does things.
Even more importantly, this question is flawed insofar as the attempt is to come back and say 'God doesn't make sense, hence he does not exist', or 'Even if he exists, it doesnt matter'. This is because we can only ever know that he has an interest in whether we obey him or not through revelation and the veracity of revelation is established by establishing or negating its being from God, not by showing the irrationality of something within it, which can otheriwse be interpreted in a rational way.

What a horrendous parody parenthood and pathetic justification of atrocity. What parents do you know that threaten their children with torment for not obeying commands? What parents do you know that demand unquestionable obedience and persistent recognition of their neverending authority for the duration of your childhood, or even (keeping with the 'God' comparison) your entire life? God represents the father that is never going to leave. Never going to stop watching, judging and making demands of you in life. Is that how you want to represent parenthood?

Think for a moment - you wouldn't exist if he didn't create you. Yet, you find it unfair to follow his orders. I would consider that ungrateful.

Parents will spank their kids and set them straight if they make a mistake. If a child makes a serious mistake (let's say he kills his own grandmother for no reason), they will want nothing to do with him and will see him worthy of all kinds of punishment.

Yet at the same time, if the child was genuinely sorrowful and wanted to set things straight, a caring and merciful parent would forgive him. Likewise with God, we know he is All Merciful and would never hesitate to forgive if the intention is sincere.

But that would be an automation, wouldn't it. If God is interested in being recognised, and so virulently then it could not be satisfied through programming us into submission. It could only be determined by him attempting to convince others to observe him. At any rate, why is it then that failure to believe and worship God commands such a tortorous and malevolent punishment?

What we should be concerned with is whether God exists and if so, what has he informed us in terms of the realities of the world, upon the basis of which we must act. Why or why not is superflous here in most of this discussion, unless we are interested in philosophing for the fun of it.

The question of 'if God exists' is rationally to be anwered as an independent question, as opposed to one attached to considerations of morality, good or evil, suffering that exists, or even presumed attributes he has. If we establish that he exists, then we can begin to speak of these things but not in a way that we end up back at the question of whether he exists.

To give an example, take the verse about cutting the hand of the thief. Consider the following two approaches:

1. Its barabric, therefore it can't be from God, therefore this revelation is not from God.
2. It's from God, therefore necessarily its right.

The second appraoch is the correct one because it moves in order of establishing realities and then moving on to discuss their implications. The first does the opposite, over and above making moral judgements without acknowledging the subjective nature of such judgements.

Indeed, I suggest you keep this in mind as it is as true to me as it is to others. I do not believe in a God not because of some spiteful disobedience, or as some arrogant belief that I do not need to - but simply do not believe in a deity entirely because I am not convinced. I simply do not believe it likely that a divine being exists. I do go so far as to state that I actually cannot believe in a God until specific evidence or logical argument has been presented sufficiently. Are you to say that my sincerity born from my free-will that God decreed I should have would be my downfall? It would be my confession towards my punishment? How can you defend the concept of someone that would punish people entirely for getting their information wrong?

The message has been sent for all of mankind and the average Joe on the street isn't a philosophicaly minded one that would be able to comprehend powerful logical arguments. Hence, the implication is that the proofs of the existence of God must be clear to people from all walks of life, past and present as it would be unfair otherwise.

So there must be a more basic proof. Simply even making dua (supplicating/asking him to help you even without believing in Islam) will produce results so many times for you, that you will be left with no reason to doubt in God's existence yet the majority of people will still harbour doubt and go about their business, without contemplating further.

Everyone's conception of what is or is not moral happens to be subjective. Some people derive their moral understanding from Christianity (and all of its sects). Some people derive it from Islam. Others derive it from Sikhism, Hinduism, Baha'i, Scientology, Shinto, Taoism, Zoroastarianism, Paganism, Confucanism, Buddhism and the list goes on.

Merely claiming to hold a viewpoint that is allegedly 'objective' does not mean anything pragmatically.

This, of course is what you believe. I should ask you what precisely this means here as far as you are concerned as with the greatest respect, it comes across as rhetoric to me.

There is only one truth. All religions cannot be true at the same time. I don't speak on behalf of other religions.

If I accept the Islamic message, 'morality' is obedience to God. The problem that you have against this position is that you believe this means that the rules of obedience are contrary to the concern of humanity. But why would God will something that is bad for humanity? You seem to think the rules God has chosen are whimsical and arbitrary. Yet this give negative connotations only because with respect to humans they are negative, but to extend the same to God is to draw analogy between the nature of humans and the nature of God, which is completely wrong. Humans have very limited knowledge and are subject to bias and preference, hence their being arbitrary and whimsical is problematic but God has perfect knowledge - All Wise/All Knowing - so there is no analogy.

Ok, then what about Ghandi in hell? Can you not see the rather massive disconnect here with the moral person going to hell and the immoral going to heaven?

Only obedience to God will get a person into heaven. Ghandi chose not to believe in Allah nor did he follow his religion, hence the punishment is justified.

Him being moral (as humans may understand it) has no bearing on his final resting place and like I said to Skavau, this apparent unfairness shouldn't be taken as proof to show God couldn't possibly have said this and by extension, God doesn't exist. Rather, you have to prove God doesn't exist and the message of Islam is false, first.

In any case, we can't equate our flawed knowledge and profess to know what is good and the correct behaviour against the divine wisdom of God.

And what if Ghandi went to hell and THEN sincerely repented (now seeing which religious beliefs were correct). Its too late then under the abrahamic religions, right? So what happened to this mercy mentioned? Hitler can make good after doing all he did, but Ghandi can't because of bad timing?

Yes. Our time on Earth is the exam. You can't go to an examiner and tell him that you made mistakes and want the necessary grades after seeing all the answers in front of you.

Again, the presumed unfairness of it stems from the fact that you think the proofs of the veracity of Islam are not clear and hence our flimsy (human) understanding of morality, ethics and proper behaviour are judged to be superior.

To a certain extent, sure. But this is no different with theists. Theists have just codified the moral values into holy texts and attributed them to Gods, and then added a whole bunch more that benefits the leaders and controls the believers.

Theists and atheists also both have their own inate moral compass' (with a few sociopathic exceptions) independent of society and religion. Some hardcore religious folks just may have burried it so far under religious dogma that they no longer see its there. They are not sociopaths.

Theists have not attributed morals to God. They came from God. False assumption. The innate moral compass you talk of is considered fitrah in Islam.

Nothing you mentioned involves self monitoring. These people living under these rules you mention will often break these rules when nobody is watching them. Religion has the added benefit of making you think you are ALWAYS being watched. God always sees you. God always knows what you do. And not only that, he knows what you THINK. It is the ultimate form of monitoring and control.

Fair enough. I don't, however, see a problem with an All Powerful being knowing what I do and think at all moments. All that he has told us to avoid is for our own benefit.

Don't: lie, cheat, lust after the opposite sex, backbite, have jealous thoughts, be vain, harbour hatred for people, be prideful. Given that Islam is true, if we had no concept that there is a being keeping check on our intentions at all times, then a majority of people would be more open to committing the above mentioned sins over and over. Yes, the love of God ought to keep us away from sin, yet many times people need fear of being watched in order to keep them in check.

We are to have a balance of fear AND hope, so think about it from another perspective too, namely that since God is omnipresent, we always have the door open that allows us communicate with him and ask for his help and mercy.

If somebody's sense of morality boils down to "What god says is good, and what god doesn't want is evil", if its just obedience to God and nothing more, then they are prime pickings for a terrorist cell, cool aid cult, or televangelist scam.

That is rather simplistic reasoning and assumes religious people are dumb sheep that are easily misled.

What you say can apply to non-religious folk too. By and large, a person's interpretation of what is good and bad comes from his parents, family, friends, teachers, the people around him, the material he reads/views and the society on the whole that he lives in. What if all these sources are promoting something we would consider 'evil' - Nazism, perhaps?

So, it is not right to assume religious people are the only ones that can be prime picking for being duped into doing wrong.

[Lynx]

The message has been sent for all of mankind and the average Joe on the street isn't a philosophicaly minded one that would be able to comprehend powerful logical arguments. Hence, the implication is that the proofs of the existence of God must be clear to people from all walks of life, past and present as it would be unfair otherwise.

So there must be a more basic proof. Simply even making dua (supplicating/asking him to help you even without believing in Islam) will produce results so many times for you, that you will be left with no reason to doubt in God's existence yet the majority of people will still harbour doubt and go about their business, without contemplating further.

You are quite right if God wanted there to be proof of his existence then it should be something that anyone could grasp not just the intellectually elite. But why do you think the second part of your message here about the duas actually work is true? This is exactly what Christians say; 'If you want to know God exists simply ask him to enter your heart or ask him to s how himslef to you and if he doesn't it's because you are being stubborn or your heart isn't into it". The trouble with this statement is obvious: there is no reason to think its true and the proponent always makes excuses to defend the claim. If Skavu or anyone else here said they prayed and nothing happened you would reply that he isn't looking hard enough. The circular logic is amazing.

[جوري]

You are quite right if God wanted there to be proof of his existence then it should be something that anyone could grasp not just the intellectually elite. But why do you think the second part of your message here about the duas actually work is true? This is exactly what Christians say; 'If you want to know God exists simply ask him to enter your heart or ask him to s how himslef to you and if he doesn't it's because you are being stubborn or your heart isn't into it". The trouble with this statement is obvious: there is no reason to think its true and the proponent always makes excuses to defend the claim. If Skavu or anyone else here said they prayed and nothing happened you would reply that he isn't looking hard enough. The circular logic is amazing.

The question isn't merely to treat God like a genie for instance ask him to grant you a million bucks for an exchange of professing belief.. but a sincere sign that if he truly exists to give one an augury and those take on many forms.
and in fact we see that this is exactly what many former atheists or non-believers have done..
Like Dr. Laurence Brown



or Dr. Jeffrey Lang



Indeed God has made it incumbent upon himself to give wisdom and signs to those who seek him.. So you can really be the best judge of your own personal sincerity, ultimately it is something between you and your creator.. no one can argue here that I asked and didn't receive or did ask and received and here is my personal experience a personal experience is just that manifest unto oneself and not the world, so frankly there can be no arguments left.. if Indeed you questions and sought and didn't receive an answer then only you can be fully aware of your situation.

Two people enter into an exam and both claim to have studied reallllly hard .. one gets an 86 which is about ok, decent, and another gets a 69 a failing grade .. how can you assess as a person who studied really hard and who gave it a half assed effort.. well the grade is one way, their personal attitude and achievements in class is another, the way they spend their time.. but you as a person not familiar with the situation can only go on that final grade and by that token can't really assess whether a person reallllllly studied or merely half way studied or even cheated.. thus it is unfair to make this into a public agenda or debate, the truth usually lies with the individual and the one that individual is responsible from!


Everyday common sense stripped of its pretense!
you ought to try it sometimes!

all the best

[Supreme]

Denial after the message has been received is worthy of punishment, however. Allah has said he is Most Just. He wouldn't punish without reason. Therefore, the implication is that the signs of Allah and the signs of Islam's truth must be so manifest, that there is no sound basis for us to reject them.

Regardless of if you hold otherwise (i.e. 'if they were so clear all would be muslim'), this is our position. We are told the the truth stands clear from falsehood and we hold tight to that.

As to why people reject faith after receiving the message - some reasons might include looking at the religion with insincerity, deliberate arrogance in rejecting, desire to stick to what their forefather's believed without paying attention to the apparent signs. Even being led astray by shaytan himself. God knows best what an individual's reasons for rejection are.

Well, Alpha Dude, if we suppose that God is omniscient, he knows EXACTLY what it would take to win over each of us. After all, a truly capable teacher knows how to convince and motivate his pupils even if he does *not* have the ability to read their minds or know every minute detail of their biography.
What would be easier, then, than to bring each and every one of us to the light - and even further than that?

To suppose that God basically *wants* us all to come to him yet fails to accomplish that goal gives WAY too much weight to our human range of decision-making, and WAY too little credit to an omniscient God's capabilities.

So if there are people who end up in hell, they do so because God chooses not to exert the minimum effort of convincing them.

[Alpha Dude]

You are quite right if God wanted there to be proof of his existence then it should be something that anyone could grasp not just the intellectually elite. But why do you think the second part of your message here about the duas actually work is true? This is exactly what Christians say; 'If you want to know God exists simply ask him to enter your heart or ask him to s how himslef to you and if he doesn't it's because you are being stubborn or your heart isn't into it". The trouble with this statement is obvious: there is no reason to think its true and the proponent always makes excuses to defend the claim. If Skavu or anyone else here said they prayed and nothing happened you would reply that he isn't looking hard enough. The circular logic is amazing.

If the request to Allah by Skavua was sincere, then I believe that Allah would guide him. That guidance doesn't have to manifest itself immediately.

Making dua is not meant to be proof of Islam per se - the idea is that he makes sincere dua for complete guidance to the true path from a 'Being' known as God and not necessarily the God propagated by any religion either. My conviction in Islam tells me that he would be guided to Islam sooner or later, as it is the one true path.

If a man were to open a door into a room full of gold and tell somebody else about his experience, you'd be right if you were to say 'there is no reason to think what he says is true based on him saying he saw it with his own eyes as it's only a kind of circular logic' but the only way that person will find out the truth is if he actually goes and checks for himself and in such a case will realise he was told correctly. Likewise with dua.
The example demonstrates that the claim is not necessarily false.

So the issue boils down to whether or not skauvu trusts me enough to do such a thing, I guess.

[Lynx]

Well I can say that I have sincerely asked for guidance from Allah. Nothing really happened. I think a lot of MUslims underestimate the sincerity of non-muslims. They aren't necessarily looking for reasons not to believe; a lot of people are looking for reasons to believe but it just doesn't happen because it is not as clear as you say.

[Lynx]

The question isn't merely to treat God like a genie for instance ask him to grant you a million bucks for an exchange of professing belief.. but a sincere sign that if he truly exists to give one an augury and those take on many forms.
and in fact we see that this is exactly what many former atheists or non-believers have done..
Like Dr. Laurence Brown



or Dr. Jeffrey Lang



Indeed God has made it incumbent upon himself to give wisdom and signs to those who seek him.. So you can really be the best judge of your own personal sincerity, ultimately it is something between you and your creator.. no one can argue here that I asked and didn't receive or did ask and received and here is my personal experience a personal experience is just that manifest unto oneself and not the world, so frankly there can be no arguments left.. if Indeed you questions and sought and didn't receive an answer then only you can be fully aware of your situation.

Two people enter into an exam and both claim to have studied reallllly hard .. one gets an 86 which is about ok, decent, and another gets a 69 a failing grade .. how can you assess as a person who studied really hard and who gave it a half assed effort.. well the grade is one way, their personal attitude and achievements in class is another, the way they spend their time.. but you as a person not familiar with the situation can only go on that final grade and by that token can't really assess whether a person reallllllly studied or merely half way studied or even cheated.. thus it is unfair to make this into a public agenda or debate, the truth usually lies with the individual and the one that individual is responsible from!


Everyday common sense stripped of its pretense!
you ought to try it sometimes!

all the best

I agree with everything you said. I know it;s not about asking for a wish and having a ferrari appear in your garage the minute after prayer. What I was trying to say is that I mean if your entire response to the problem of whether or not there is sufficient evidence for whether God exists rests on making a prayer to be guided or to be shown subtle signs or given hints then what would you say to someone who claims they did this and didn't see anything? You are absolutely correct that it isn't a matter of public debate because no one really knows but to say 'well you weren't genuinely asking for guidance' is a non-response that only begs the question. The matter is much more complicated than simply asking for guidance. It isn't that easy.

[جوري]

Well I can say that I have sincerely asked for guidance from Allah. Nothing really happened. I think a lot of MUslims underestimate the sincerity of non-muslims. They aren't necessarily looking for reasons not to believe; a lot of people are looking for reasons to believe but it just doesn't happen because it is not as clear as you say.

Again we are not the measure of your sincerity meter and question is why would you want us to? further what were you expecting to happen if I merely to humor you 'sincerity' ? God and the angels descending upon you in a golden chariot?

all the best

[جوري]

I agree with everything you said. I know it;s not about asking for a wish and having a ferrari appear in your garage the minute after prayer. What I was trying to say is that I mean if your entire response to the problem of whether or not there is sufficient evidence for whether God exists rests on making a prayer to be guided or to be shown subtle signs or given hints then what would you say to someone who claims they did this and didn't see anything? You are absolutely correct that it isn't a matter of public debate because no one really knows but to say 'well you weren't genuinely asking for guidance' is a non-response that only begs the question. The matter is much more complicated than simply asking for guidance. It isn't that easy.

well actually it really is that easy.. it is a question of what it is that you'll take as a sign and if you accept it as a sign when given you and make a commitment to it .. when I asked for guidance I made specific requests from God and three times my request was granted.. at that point I couldn't simply dismiss it as three coincidences..

I have no doubt in my mind or heart that when one seeks with sincerity one will be granted.. It is up to the individual self at that stage whether to accept or dismiss those signs as the intended ones!

all the best

[Alpha Dude]

Well I can say that I have sincerely asked for guidance from Allah. Nothing really happened. I think a lot of MUslims underestimate the sincerity of non-muslims. They aren't necessarily looking for reasons not to believe; a lot of people are looking for reasons to believe but it just doesn't happen because it is not as clear as you say.

You're still alive, hence there is stil the possibility that you can be guided to accept Islam. If you have asked sincerely at any one point in time, there is no reason to say you will definitely not be guided at any time in your future.

If at any one or numerous points in your life you see signs which direct you toward the truth of Islam, even if it be for a small while, you have to maintain consistent sincerity and take heed of them.

[جوري]

You're still alive, hence there is stil the possibility that you can be guided to accept Islam. If you have asked sincerely at any one point in time, there is no reason to say you will definitely not be guided at any time in your future.

If at any one or numerous points in your life you see signs which direct you toward the truth of Islam, even if it be for a small while, you have to maintain consistent sincerity and take heed of them.

:sl:

I personally always thought that it is best to approach this in small steps.. you'll notice none of the atheists above actually requested a specific religion, rather, asking from God that if he really exists to.. (--) in the case of Dr. Laurence Brown his daughter was born with an incurable congenital disease for which he made a very non-descript non-religious prayer asking '' if you really exist please cure my daughter and I'll make a lifetime effort to find you'' and in fact after his daughter was given the clear he struggled a bit to find his path.. so it wasn't an over night event it was a commitment to establish a covenant from God, and if you really think about the history of the prophets like Abraham .. that is exactly how they all started.. with a desire for meaning..

It is hard for me to believe that anyone can go through life without the need to address that desire.. but I do believe that one is able to live with a nagging feeling and simply ignore it until it is too late!

:w:

[Pygoscelis]

People that die before the message has reached them are not held accountable. Denial after the message has been received is worthy of punishment, however.

So by giving da'wah you are dooming people who would otherwise have not been doomed? Think about that. If what you say is true then spreading the word of God is dangerous and cruel.

Think for a moment - you wouldn't exist if he didn't create you. Yet, you find it unfair to follow his orders. I would consider that ungrateful.

I am supposed to worship and enslave myself to my creator just for making me? Regarless of how abusive or evil or morally bankrupt he/she may be?

Parents will spank their kids and set them straight if they make a mistake. If a child makes a serious mistake (let's say he kills his own grandmother for no reason), they will want nothing to do with him and will see him worthy of all kinds of punishment.

Yet at the same time, if the child was genuinely sorrowful and wanted to set things straight, a caring and merciful parent would forgive him. Likewise with God, we know he is All Merciful and would never hesitate to forgive if the intention is sincere.

If God is our parent, he's an abusive parent and we should be taken away by the celestial child services and put under the charge of another God. Actually, come to think of it, this very analogy of yours equates us all to children. I find that in itself a bit off.

To give an example, take the verse about cutting the hand of the thief. Consider the following two approaches:

1. Its barabric, therefore it can't be from God, therefore this revelation is not from God.
2. It's from God, therefore necessarily its right.

Consider another two:

3. It is barbaric and cruel, and is from God, therefore God is barbaric and cruel.
4. It is barbaric and cruel, and claiming it is from God makes it more acceptable to the masses (this is my own position)

If I accept the Islamic message, 'morality' is obedience to God.

This is precisely what I find so offensive about Islam. Equate morality to obedience and you have lost all sense of morality.

But why would God will something that is bad for humanity?

Why do you assume that God wants what is best for humanity? Is a cruel and petty God not just as likely (or more likely given what God is said to have done to us). Maybe we are God's game of "the Sims". Maybe we are mere toys for his amusement. I see no reason to take your vision of God over these ones.

Yes. Our time on Earth is the exam. You can't go to an examiner and tell him that you made mistakes and want the necessary grades after seeing all the answers in front of you.

You can if you were doing a crossword puzzle and then the examiner suddenly entered the room and demanded to see your answers, declared it your term paper, and graded you on it. You would complain. And the examiner would probably be fired.

That is rather simplistic reasoning and assumes religious people are dumb sheep that are easily misled.

You are easily misled if your ethic is bare obedience to power. Not all religious people are that way, but you appear to be pushing for that sort of thing.

What you say can apply to non-religious folk too. By and large, a person's interpretation of what is good and bad comes from his parents, family, friends, teachers, the people around him, the material he reads/views and the society on the whole that he lives in. What if all these sources are promoting something we would consider 'evil' - Nazism, perhaps?

I entirely agree. And we need to be as aware as possible of the social forces around us, and not just blindly follow dogma. Dogma is not always religious in nature. But religious dogma is the most powerful, and that's why all these other dogmatic ideologies tend to build in religion (Nazi belt buckles read "Gott Mit uns" - which wasn't a reminder to nazi soldiers to keep their hands warm)

[EllyDicious]

Faith over works. Ghandi in hell and a repentant Hitler in heaven. Truly a disturbing concept. This is one of the primary reasons why I have always found Christianity, Judaism and Islam to be such objectionable and potentially dangerous religions. It highlights once again that Obedience is key, not morality.

Why would a creator of the universe care so much that his creation (which he purportedly gave free will not to) worship him? It sounds like he has self esteem issues and needs constant patting on the back. That doesn't befit an all powerful creator of the universe. But it sure does fit what leaders of man would want in a religion they created. Only through religion can you get people to self monitor to adhere to your agenda. Only in religion can you get people thinking that not only are you Big Brother but you are actually Big Brother with constant awareness of what people THINK.

Totally agree!!!

[EllyDicious]

If God really had self esteem issues, he would use his power to literally force us to be in a constant state of worship. Yet we have been given freewill to deny worship.

He has given us free will, and he doesn't need us to worship Him, thus religion is a waste of time for forcing people to worship God when he doesn't need it.

I think you struggle to understand that there is no such thing as morality independent of God. Nothing can exist independent of God. All that we know and understand have been created by him, including what we judge as being moral.

According to you but not for the rest of the world. Society decides for its own moral, apart from what God might think/decides.

[EllyDicious]

Don't: lie, cheat, lust after the opposite sex, backbite, have jealous thoughts, be vain, harbour hatred for people, be prideful. Given that Islam is true, if we had no concept that there is a being keeping check on our intentions at all times, then a majority of people would be more open to committing the above mentioned sins over and over. Yes, the love of God ought to keep us away from sin, yet many times people need fear of being watched in order to keep them in check.

What Islam calls as 'sin' are in fact human attributes and features.
We lie, cheat, lust after opposite sex ...etc. Humans' feelings are complex so it's contradictory to force us to not feel something while feelings [whether positive/negative] are made for us, humans.
It's like saying Don't love, don't laugh, don't cry...don't smile ... etc. ....
We are made of different feelings that will be felt sooner or later in life. It depends on our character. That's how God created us and for the same reasons he'll punish us?

[EllyDicious]

My conviction in Islam tells me that he would be guided to Islam sooner or later, as it is the one true path.

.

This is totally subjective and not convincing.
I believe God belongs nor to Islam nor to Christians/Jews .., he's not religious and I guess he feels so confused about so many religions that he feels like being used by people talking on behalf of him.

[Ramadhan]

Again we are not the measure of your sincerity meter and question is why would you want us to? further what were you expecting to happen if I merely to humor you 'sincerity' ? God and the angels descending upon you in a golden chariot?

all the best

This reminds me of the verse QS. 41:14

When their messengers came unto them from before them and behind them, saying: Worship none but Allah! they said: If our Lord had willed, He surely would have sent down angels (unto us), so lo! we are disbelievers in that wherewith ye have been sent.

[جوري]

This reminds me of the verse QS. 41:14

When their messengers came unto them from before them and behind them, saying: Worship none but Allah! they said: If our Lord had willed, He surely would have sent down angels (unto us), so lo! we are disbelievers in that wherewith ye have been sent.

:sl:

which site do you use to get this lovely bold print of the Quran in Arabic? Masha'Allah..

I was actually thinking of this verse when I made my comment:

2: 210 Will they wait until God comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? But to God do all questions go back (for decision).

Thus all is wasted here unfortunately illa man ra7ma rabbi..
perversity is a 'human attribute' I suppose like wanting to murder your loud mouthed neighbor .. surely we should simply act on all our impulses because well they're 'human attributes' .. civility is of course obedience you should make your morality as your' human attributes dictate including raping of four year old daughter, marrying your sister and gyrating like animals in front of children' .. performing rituals for the good of you and the better of mankind make god a 'dictator'

Then they congratulate each other on points well made.. shouldn't there simply be a collation of this new society of Illuminati where they can have wild 'human attribute like orgies' drink their liquor and simply congratulate each others without having to take web space and sully our this site with their reproof.. I guess it is all in good entertainment..

:w:

[Ramadhan]

:sl:

which site do you use to get this lovely bold print of the Quran in Arabic? Masha'Allah..

http://quran.com

It's among my fave Quran website, beside quranexplorer.com
It provides the text with six different english translations and a tafseer, as well as a host of other languages translations.
It is fast and very user friendly also.

[Skavau]

Let's do this.

People that die before the message has reached them are not held accountable.

Okay

Denial after the message has been received is worthy of punishment, however. Allah has said he is Most Just. He wouldn't punish without reason. Therefore, the implication is that the signs of Allah and the signs of Islam's truth must be so manifest, that there is no sound basis for us to reject them.

What constitutes 'receiving the message' and what constitutes 'denying the message'?

As to why people reject faith after receiving the message - some reasons might include looking at the religion with insincerity, deliberate arrogance in rejecting, desire to stick to what their forefather's believed without paying attention to the apparent signs. Even being led astray by shaytan himself. God knows best what an individual's reasons for rejection are.

You appear to have missed other reasons, such as sincere skepticism over the claims of Islam, disbelief due to the perspective that there is a lack of evidence for God. Do you believe it is impossible to disbelieve honestly that Islam is untrue, or without evidence?

We can never answer such a question why, as it beyond our realm. Only Allah can tell us things about why he does things.

Then you do not know. You cannot claim objective insight into morality when actually pushed, you retreat back to a perspective of ignorance. At the very least, concerning God you can claim to know that he must be observed, his tenets upheld and his commands listened to - but you cannot say why, and you cannot explain why.

Even more importantly, this question is flawed insofar as the attempt is to come back and say 'God doesn't make sense, hence he does not exist', or 'Even if he exists, it doesnt matter'.

What are you talking about? Either you know why God, per Islam is interested in our observance of his reign or you do not. Either it is explained sufficiently in scripture, or it is not. Either it can be explained philosophically or ethically or it cannot.

Think for a moment - you wouldn't exist if he didn't create you. Yet, you find it unfair to follow his orders. I would consider that ungrateful.

First of all, I don't not 'follow his orders' due to rebellion against his rule - I actually refuse to 'follow his orders' because I do not believe that this deity exists - and I do not make it a habit to observe the importance of things I deem unlikely to exist.

Secondly, why does it matter if he created me? According to you humanity was created, without our permission to live in a hostile world full of natural disasters, natural diseases and natural predators. For thousands and thousands of years almost every human endured short and harsh lives just to survive. In time, our insight improves and we begin to adapt to atrocity and hardship and live progressively better and longer lives - but nonetheless, we did this throught our own 'free-will' did we not? We came very far through sweat & toil over all these centuries - and what is the message, what is the objective we should be keeping in mind through all of this according to you?

Worship Allah? Did Allah create us just to be acknowledged? He created a world of disaster, disease and destruction - put upon it a frightened human race and watched as we corpse-dragged ourselves through it to progressively greater heights, and eventually decided that well, the most important moral lesson out of this is ritualistic obedience to me at all times. What is this masochism you support?

Thirdly and in correspondence with the above - why does us being just created mean we must be obliged to serve? And what is the meaning of our thankfulness if we spend our timed merely observing, obeying and negating our will to the divine arbiter?

Parents will spank their kids and set them straight if they make a mistake. If a child makes a serious mistake (let's say he kills his own grandmother for no reason), they will want nothing to do with him and will see him worthy of all kinds of punishment.

Okay.

Yet at the same time, if the child was genuinely sorrowful and wanted to set things straight, a caring and merciful parent would forgive him. Likewise with God, we know he is All Merciful and would never hesitate to forgive if the intention is sincere.

Except of course - in hell. You discount the possibility of repentance there?

What we should be concerned with is whether God exists and if so, what has he informed us in terms of the realities of the world, upon the basis of which we must act. Why or why not is superflous here in most of this discussion, unless we are interested in philosophing for the fun of it.

Pardon me, but I thought we were talking about morality here. Or at least partially. Morality has everything to do with 'why'. If you claim that none of the questions are relevant to God, or that none of these questions are possible to answer with God then you have conceded the discussion.

It is, and I have said this before important to me why God does what he does. If I was convinced that God exists, that would only be a single part of the equation. I would need to know then why I should be interested in observing this God. I would need to know what morality or moral system claims that living in a celestial North Korea is a desirable state of affairs. I would need to know why this being has allowed millions upon millions of people historically and to this day to just perish due to the volatility of the world he created. I would need to know why he thinks it prudent to torment people for misinformation, or misunderstandings for an entire eternity. Why would I want to ignore these questions?

The question of 'if God exists' is rationally to be anwered as an independent question, as opposed to one attached to considerations of morality, good or evil, suffering that exists, or even presumed attributes he has. If we establish that he exists, then we can begin to speak of these things but not in a way that we end up back at the question of whether he exists.

Absolutely. But we are not tallking specifically about whether God exists. I am asking you to back up your concept of God.

1. Its barabric, therefore it can't be from God, therefore this revelation is not from God.
2. It's from God, therefore necessarily its right.

The second appraoch is the correct one because it moves in order of establishing realities and then moving on to discuss their implications. The first does the opposite, over and above making moral judgements without acknowledging the subjective nature of such judgements.

Wow. I have never seen such a back-to-front perspective on morality. It is of course, prudent of me to note that your analysis completely begs the question and has no meaning towards an atheist. The claim in (2) (my hash key is broke) assumes that God exists, and has things to say on what ought. I as an atheist have no reason to accept that, and so the performance of (2) capitulates immediately.

But there is a deeper problem to your examples, and it confirms exactly what I suspected. You propose a morality of systematic obedience and capitulation to authority in the face of demands. Your morality is nothing more than this. You claim that so long as God decrees X then it is right. The self-destructive consequences of this mentality can be seen immediately. You do not say that things such as murder, theft, rape, slavery, torture etc are wrong because of their impact on the lives of other people. You say that these things are wrong just because God says so. You distort the term 'moral' to mean 'obedience' and the term 'immoral' to mean 'disobedience'. If you really, truly believe that this is true then you could have no objection to anything God could ever say. If hypothetically, God was to decree murder as valid - you could have no mechanism to disapprove. If God was to state that rape was wholly acceptable - you would have no reasoning in your library to dispute that. The terms 'justice' and 'compassion', just like morality can have no meaning in your dichtonomy. And this is objective? This is a morality of understanding, of objective parameters? It creates an applicable converse to the opposite of Dostoyevsky's famous quote in the Brother's Karamazov. I'll say: with God, all things are possible.

There is no necessary response to this. It is the machination of an automated masochism. It is so apart from actual ethics that it explains itself as dire. How is obedience to authority morality, precisely? By this reasoning Allah could effectively permit and condemn anything for any or no reason and you would have no reason to do anything but side merrily along with it. It is the ultimate pragmatic evil. It has been used (not exclusively) as the justification for atrocity by tyrants since the dawn of time. Never can made blissfully and unashamedly commit such evil when under a mission for God.

The message has been sent for all of mankind and the average Joe on the street isn't a philosophicaly minded one that would be able to comprehend powerful logical arguments. Hence, the implication is that the proofs of the existence of God must be clear to people from all walks of life, past and present as it would be unfair otherwise.

Okay. This appears to be a passive repetition of your opening statement when you said that people unaware would not be held accountable.

So there must be a more basic proof. Simply even making dua (supplicating/asking him to help you even without believing in Islam) will produce results so many times for you, that you will be left with no reason to doubt in God's existence yet the majority of people will still harbour doubt and go about their business, without contemplating further.

You contradicted yourself without even applying a full stop. If there is no doubt after results being produced through 'dua' then how could people yet doubt?

If I accept the Islamic message, 'morality' is obedience to God. The problem that you have against this position is that you believe this means that the rules of obedience are contrary to the concern of humanity.

Absolutely. It is a foundational evil.

But why would God will something that is bad for humanity?

You don't have any moral parameters to ask that. You've just said yourself that morality, per your own standards is obedience to God. Whether or not a command of God might affect humanity badly cannot be of concern to you because, as you say - all you do or should do is unquestionably and unreservedly always obey God, nevermind the consequences to humanity. In fact, this has been your most consistent perspective. You have said it several times over the course of your response to me.

Don't second-guess yourself now.

You seem to think the rules God has chosen are whimsical and arbitrary. Yet this give negative connotations only because with respect to humans they are negative, but to extend the same to God is to draw analogy between the nature of humans and the nature of God, which is completely wrong. Humans have very limited knowledge and are subject to bias and preference, hence their being arbitrary and whimsical is problematic but God has perfect knowledge - All Wise/All Knowing - so there is no analogy.

This is not a response. This is just an admission that the all-elusive God cannot be comprehended. That we have no idea behind the 'wisdom' of his decrees, nor can we gain any insight into it. This intent to exempt God from questioning is not impressive, it is suspect.

To answer: Of course I will gain my perspective of morality from humanity. I happen to be a human. Were you expecting me to find some non-human perspective and begin my argument from there? You should know we work with our understanding, and most of all God should know that too.

Only obedience to God will get a person into heaven. Ghandi chose not to believe in Allah nor did he follow his religion, hence the punishment is justified.

Obedience, again.

Him being moral (as humans may understand it) has no bearing on his final resting place and like I said to Skavau, this apparent unfairness shouldn't be taken as proof to show God couldn't possibly have said this and by extension, God doesn't exist.

The part in bold is important. You have just, even after your declaration of obedience to Allah in spite of humanity gone that one step further. You have just admitted that morality has nothing to do with the ultimate objective. Do I need comment further?

Rather, you have to prove God doesn't exist and the message of Islam is false, first.

No I don't. You make the claim that God exists and that he has something to tell us. This is a large claim and it is upon you to back it up.

Yes. Our time on Earth is the exam. You can't go to an examiner and tell him that you made mistakes and want the necessary grades after seeing all the answers in front of you.

When you sign up for a course, or for a subject in any educational establishment you are made profoundly aware that you happen to be signing up for it. According to my perspective, there is no examination and there is no grading system involved. You can't go around making up silly comparisons about what God does with human affairs after telling us that God is beyond our semantics and beyond our comprehension. It is a passive contradiction and suggests that you do contrast with human experiences to suit your agenda.

[Darth Ultor]

I read your fulll message, and you do have a point, but can you say beyond any doubt that there is no God?

[Skavau]

I read your fulll message, and you do have a point, but can you say beyond any doubt that there is no God?

No I can't. (If you're talking to me)

My response to Alpha Dude isn't based on that assumption.

[Pygoscelis]

I read your fulll message, and you do have a point, but can you say beyond any doubt that there is no God?

No more than I can conclusively say there are no faeries in the garden. And even if there is a God, I see no reason to believe it is any particular God (or Goddess or Gods) who wants anything in particular from me.

[جوري]

http://quran.com

It's among my fave Quran website, beside quranexplorer.com
It provides the text with six different english translations and a tafseer, as well as a host of other languages translations.
It is fast and very user friendly also.

oh Jazaka Allah khyran.. I use one mainly in Arabic: http://quran.muslim-web.com/sura/?s=2&a=1

and it is difficult to cut and paste, the other is this multilingual one but it is a shiite site as the commentary is by someone named pooya, however the Quran itself is the same with three handy translations .. but I am definitely going to make the switch..

:w: