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Logikos
04-20-2010, 04:24 PM
Hi,

I'm a student from the UK, currently investigating different faiths, belief systems and worldviews. I hope you won't mind me asking questions about your beliefs and why you hold them. In particular I'm interested in reasons to believe that the Quran is the Word of Allah - what is the strongest argument for this?

Logikos
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PouringRain
04-20-2010, 05:09 PM
Welcome to the forum.
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marwen
04-20-2010, 05:32 PM
Hi Logikos, how are you ?
Welcome to the forum !

I think it's a good start to have an idea about religious beliefs and arguments. Here you can find out many informations about Islam, and also about some other religions.

Concerning the reasons why we believe the qur'an is the words of Allah, I think it's a good topic. If you're really serious about finding the truth and you have an objective reasoning, you'll have good answers here. I'm not really the learned person here to give you the right answers, which some more learned brothers and sisters can give. But just to give you an idea about the most convincing arguments are :

- the non contradiction between his words/statements (the first thing to proove a text is false is to find some contradiction in it)
- the scientific truths it brings which are beyond the scientific level of the time where the qur'an appeared, and some are even beyond our scientific explanation today . (scientific miracles)
- the linguistic styling (linguistic miracles) used in the qur'an, that can't be reproduced by any human.

to better understand the third argument, it's better to learn the arabic language and the arabic litterature to have a good background in order to evaluate the qur'an language.
I think there is a thread in this forum about the linguistic miracles of the qur'an with translation : check out this thread..

You can also google and search for the scientific miracles existing in the qur'an.

I think these are the most important arguments to give you and idea, but there are also many other good arguments you can find out.

That's said, I won't be surprised if you have a different opinion about the qur'an, because I think it's not evident for every person to see the truth in the qur'an and in Islam, because you should seek the truth to find it, the truth isn't always accessible in the first time. Besides, if the truth were clear for every body, all humans in the world will have the same religion and the same position, which is not the case.

welcome again, and hope you have a nice stay here.

All the best !
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Logikos
04-20-2010, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
Hi Logikos, how are you ?
Welcome to the forum !

Concerning the reasons why we believe the qur'an is the words of Allah, I think it's a good topic. If you're really serious about finding the truth and you have an objective reasoning, you'll have good answers here. I'm not really the learned person here to give you the right answers, which some more learned brothers and sisters can give. But just to give you an idea about the most convincing arguments are :

- the non contradiction between his words/statements (the first thing to proove a text is false is to find some contradiction in it)
- the scientific truths it brings which are beyond the scientific level of the time where the qur'an appeared, and some are even beyond our scientific explanation today . (scientific miracles)
- the linguistic styling (linguistic miracles) used in the qur'an, that can't be reproduced by any human.

to better understand the third argument, it's better to learn the arabic language and the arabic litterature to have a good background in order to evaluate the qur'an language.
I think there is a thread in this forum about the linguistic miracles of the qur'an with translation : check out this thread..

You can also google and search for the scientific miracles existing in the qur'an.

I think these are the most important arguments to give you and idea, but there are also many other good arguments you can find out.

That's said, I won't be surprised if you have a different opinion about the qur'an, because I think it's not evident for every person to see the truth in the qur'an and in Islam, because you should seek the truth to find it, the truth isn't always accessible in the first time. Besides, if the truth were clear for every body, all humans in the world will have the same religion and the same position, which is not the case.

welcome again, and hope you have a nice stay here.

All the best !
Hi Marwen, I'm good, thanks for you welcome and comments. I have read some about those three arguments before, but haven't yet found one to be convincing:

  • The lack of contradictions is a necessary but not sufficient condition, because, clearly, there are many books written by people that don't contain contradictions.
  • I've found that the verses I have read that are claimed to be "scientifically miraculous" have been very vague, and it seems to me that they have been interpreted in the light of modern science.
  • I haven't yet seen a sound presentation of the "linguistic miracle" argument. I even struggle to conceive of how such an argument could be formulated. It seems to me that an argument for the Quran basically has to be of the following form:

    P1: A book has some property P only if it is of divine origin.
    P2: The Quran has property P.
    C: The Quran is of divine origin.

    But I can't think of any linguistic property that would make P1 self-evident (but maybe that is due to my lack of imagination).


It would be great if someone who's studied these argument in depth could explain their best formulations.

Logikos
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Asiyah3
04-20-2010, 08:16 PM
:welcome: Logikos,

Have you read the authentic Sunnah (reports of Allah's messenger's speech and actions)? I hope you'll see via his forgiveness, honesty, kindness, modesty etc. etc. the characterics of a Prophet.

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: When the Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) prayed, he would stand for so long that his feet became swollen. ‘Aa’ishah said: O Messenger of Allaah, are you doing this when Allaah has forgiven your past and future sins? He said: “O ‘Aa’ishah, should I not be a thankful slave?”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (4557) and Muslim (2820).

The lack of contradictions is a necessary but not sufficient condition, because, clearly, there are many books written by people that don't contain contradictions.
Were those books also combined and preserved for 1400 years without any alternations or additions? The Qur'aan is in it's original form as it was revealed 1400 years ago to Allah's messenger (Peace and blessings be upon him).

It would be great if someone who's studied these argument in depth could explain their best formulations.

Logikos
I am not knowledgable at all, just a comment.

Hope all your question will be answered insha'llah (God willing). May Allah guide you closer to Him. Ameen.
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Masuma
04-20-2010, 08:23 PM
Asalamu alikum Wa Rehmatullahi Wa Barakatuh!

Welcome to the forum!:statisfie

I appreciate your efforts to try to learn about religions!

format_quote Originally Posted by Logikos
The lack of contradictions is a necessary but not sufficient condition, because, clearly, there are many books written by people that don't contain contradictions.
You said that there are many books written by people which don’t contain contradictions! So? We are not talking about just any type of book. We are talking about a book which mentions the facts of life, the human nature, like no other book mentioned before!

And for a book claiming to be the word of God, it is totally necessary that not even a single contradiction, a single error is found in it about its material! Otherwise do we believe in a God who makes simple errors and mistakes! (God forbid!) “Human is to err” this phrase is for humans, not GOD!

Read all other books claiming to have a divine origin, and you’ll find thousands of simple math errors, simple addition and subtraction errors, and scientific blunders, so do we say that God didn’t even know simple addition and subtraction!

format_quote Originally Posted by Logikos
I've found that the verses I have read that are claimed to be "scientifically miraculous" have been very vague, and it seems to me that they have been interpreted in the light of modern science.
This point doesn’t even make sense! If you say that the interpretation has been done wrongly and the original text is different then its alright but if the original text IS telling about some scientific fact, then where is the problem?

See it from this angle; all these scientific facts mentioned in the Quran e.g. living things made out of water, about big bang, the ant community etc etc; all these facts were mentioned 1400 years before!!! Did anybody know these things at that time? Hmmmm?

If not than who could have mentioned all these facts in the Quran 1400 years ago? What do you say?

format_quote Originally Posted by Logikos
I haven't yet seen a sound presentation of the "linguistic miracle" argument. I even struggle to conceive of how such an argument could be formulated. It seems to me that an argument for the Quran basically has to be of the following form:
See! For this you have to learn Arabic first! Believe me, Arabic is not like our English, Urdu, Spanish etc! One word in Arabic has got several meanings. Once I heard Sheikh Ahmad Deedat’s lecture on Peace TV where he said that in Arabic, word “horse” has got 100 other names, if I remember it correctly! Now that’s the real thing! I know learning Arabic is much difficult as I myself know nothing about it but still I’ve like zillion other reasons proving Quran’s authenticity to me!
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Masuma
04-20-2010, 08:27 PM
Ummm... Logikos, why don't you make a separate thread in another section and there we can continue this discussion? :?
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Masuma
04-20-2010, 08:43 PM
P.S.

Hee-hee!

Logikos, our ALLAH (God) say in Quran


"Do they not consider the Quran with care, had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found in it many a contradictions."

So do we find any contradictions in Quran? Hmmm?

Well then here is a Challenge for you!;D Find any contradiction in Quran, just ANY, and the Quran would be proven wrong!

I know that we might consider something as a contradiction due to our lack of knowledge but the moment we are given the clarification about it, the whole picture becomes clear! :statisfie

Its so easy to prove the Quran wrong...! You only need to find a single contradiction! And you'll find NONE! Why? Because Quran IS the Book of Allah. HIS "LAST TESTAMENT". :statisfie

Now don't you think a book containing not even a single error, mentioning so many scientific facts which were unknown to humans before (as Quran mentioned them 1400 years ago), with such linguistic and other miracles, is a true Word of GOD?



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Logikos
04-20-2010, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by _muslim_
:welcome: Logikos,

Have you read the authentic Sunnah (reports of Allah's messenger's speech and actions)? I hope you'll see via his forgiveness, honesty, kindness, modesty etc. etc. the characterics of a Prophet.

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: When the Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) prayed, he would stand for so long that his feet became swollen. ‘Aa’ishah said: O Messenger of Allaah, are you doing this when Allaah has forgiven your past and future sins? He said: “O ‘Aa’ishah, should I not be a thankful slave?”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (4557) and Muslim (2820).


Were those books also combined and preserved for 1400 years without any alternations or additions? The Qur'aan is in it's original form as it was revealed 1400 years ago to Allah's messenger (Peace and blessings be upon him).


I am not knowledgable at all, just a comment.

Hope all your question will be answered insha'llah (God willing). May Allah guide you closer to Him. Ameen.
Hi _Muslim_, thank you for your welcome.

I have read some Sunnah, but I don't know which are authentic or inauthentic. In any case, aren't there many virtuous people who are not Prophets? The only sufficient condition for someone being a Prophet is that their message is divine, which just brings us back to the Quran.
(And doesn't your quote imply that the Prophet sinned?)

I do not know about the textual evidence for the Quran so I couldn't verify whether the Quran has been preserved or not (do you know of any textual critics who have looked at the Quran's manuscript tradition?). Still, the preservation of a text needs to be assumed in order to even have an argument about a text's divine origin, so it is also only a necessary condition.

Logikos
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جوري
04-20-2010, 09:47 PM
Greetings Logikos..
here is a good place to start.. will link you to morw about the Quran's revelation and compilation in a subsequent post
Any Proof Against the Qur'an? (Part One) *
By Dr. Gary Miller
Da`iyah — Canada
  • Part 1
  • Part 2It must be stressed that the Qur'an is accurate about many, many things, but accuracy does not necessarily mean that a book is a divine revelation. In fact, accuracy is only one of the criteria for divine revelations. For instance, the telephone book is accurate, but that does not mean that it is divinely revealed. The real problem lies in that one must establish some proof of the source of the Qur'an’s information. The emphasis is in the other direction, in that the burden of proof is on the reader. One cannot simply deny the Qur'an’s authenticity without sufficient proof. If, indeed, one finds a mistake, then one has the right to disqualify it. This is exactly what the Qur'an encourages. Looking for Mistakes

Once a man came up to me after a lecture I delivered in South Africa. He was very angry about what I had said, and so he claimed, “I am going to go home tonight and find a mistake in the Qur'an.” Of course, I said, “Congratulations. That is the most intelligent thing that you have said.” Certainly, this is the approach Muslims need to take with those who doubt the Qur'an’s authenticity, because the Qur'an itself offers the same challenge. And inevitably, after accepting its challenge and discovering that it is true, these people will come to believe it because they could not disqualify it. In essence, the Qur'an earns their respect because they themselves have had to verify its authenticity.
An essential fact that cannot be reiterated enough concerning the authenticity of the Qur'an is that one’s inability to explain a phenomenon oneself does not require one’s acceptance of the phenomenon’s existence or another person’s explanation of it. Specifically, just because one cannot explain something does not mean that one has to accept someone else’s explanation. However, the person’s refusal of other explanations returns the burden of proof back on himself to find a feasible answer. This general theory applies to numerous concepts in life but fits most wonderfully with the Qur'anic challenge, for it creates a difficulty for one who says, “I do not believe it.” At the onset of refusal one immediately has an obligation to find an explanation oneself if one feels others’ answers are inadequate.
In fact, in one particular Qur'anic verse that I have always seen mistranslated into English, Allah mentions a man who heard the truth explained to him. It states that he was derelict in his duty because after he heard the information, he left without checking the verity of what he had heard. In other words, one is guilty if one hears something and does not research it and check to see whether it is true. One is supposed to process all information and decide what is garbage to be thrown out and what is worthwhile information to be kept and benefited from immediately or even at a later date.
One cannot just let it rattle around in one’s head. It must be put in the proper categories and approached from that point of view. For example, if the information is still speculative, then one must discern whether it’s closer to being true or false. But if all the facts have been presented, then one must decide absolutely between these two options. And even if one is not positive about the authenticity of the information, one is still required to process all the information and make the admission that one just does not know for sure. Although this last point appears to be futile, in actuality, it is beneficial to the arrival at a positive conclusion at a later time in that it forces the person to at least recognize, research, and review the facts.
This familiarity with the information will give the person “the edge” when future discoveries are made and additional information is presented. The important thing is that one deals with the facts and does not simply discard them out of empathy and disinterest.
Exhausting the Alternatives
The real certainty about the truthfulness of the Qur'an is evident in the confidence that is prevalent throughout it, and this confidence comes from a different approach: exhausting the alternatives.” In essence, the Qur'an states, “This book is a divine revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?” In other words, the reader is challenged to come up with some other explanation. Here is a book made of paper and ink. Where did it come from? It says it is a divine revelation; if it is not, then what is its source? The interesting fact is that no one has yet come up with an explanation that works. In fact, all alternatives have been exhausted. As has been well established by non-Muslims, these alternatives basically are reduced to two mutually exclusive schools of thought, insisting on one or the other.
On one hand, there exists a large group of people who have researched the Qur'an for hundreds of years and who claim, “One thing we know for sure: That man, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), thought he was a prophet. He was crazy!” They are convinced that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was fooled somehow. Then on the other hand, there is a group that alleges, “Because of this evidence, one thing we know for sure is that that man, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), was a liar!” Ironically, these two groups never seem to get together without contradictions.
In fact, many references to Islam usually claim both theories. They start out by stating that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was crazy and then end by saying he was a liar. They never seem to realize that he could not have been both! For example, if one is deluded and really thinks that he is a prophet, then he does not sit up late at night planning, “How will I fool the people tomorrow so that they think I am a prophet?” He truly believes that he is a prophet, and he trusts that the answer will be given to him by revelation.
The Critic’s Trail
As a matter of fact, a great deal of the Qur'an came in answer to questions. Someone would ask Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) a question, and the revelation would come with the answer to it. Certainly, if someone is crazy and believes that an angel put words in his ear, then when someone asks him a question, he thinks that the angel will give him the answer. Because he is crazy, he really thinks that. He does not tell someone to wait a short while and then run to his friends and ask them, “Does anyone know the answer?” This type of behavior is characteristic of someone who does not believe that he is a prophet. What the non-Muslims refuse to accept is that you cannot have it both ways. One can be deluded, or one can be a liar. One can be either one or neither one, but one certainly cannot be both! The emphasis is on the fact that they are unquestionably mutually exclusive personality traits.
The following scenario is a good example of the kind of circle that non-Muslims go around in constantly. If you ask one of them, “What is the origin of the Qur'an?” he tells you that it originated from the mind of a man who was crazy. Then you ask him, “If it came from his head, then where did he get the information contained in it? Certainly the Qur'an mentions many things with which the Arabs were not familiar.” So in order to explain the fact that you bring him, he changes his position and says, “Well, maybe he was not crazy. Maybe some foreigner brought him the information. So he lied and told people that he was a prophet.” At this point then you have to ask him, “If Muhammad was a liar, then where did he get his confidence? Why did he behave as though he really thought he was a prophet?” Finally backed into a corner, like a cat he quickly lashes out with the first response that comes to his mind. Forgetting that he has already exhausted that possibility, he claims, “Well, maybe he wasn’t a liar. He was probably crazy and really thought that he was a prophet.” And thus he begins the futile cycle again.
* Excerpted with some modifications from The Amazing Qur'an, here cited from: http://www.ymofmd.com/books/amazing_quran.htm#apro1
Dr. Gary Miller is a Canadian former Christian theologian and minister who converted to Islam. He now works on spreading and preaching Islam to the world


Any Proof Against the Qur'an? (Part Two)
By Dr. Gary Miller
Da`iyah — Canada




Satellite?blobcolurldata&ampblobheaderimage2Fjpeg&ampblobkeyid&ampblobtableMungoBlobs&ampblobwhere1137941934464&ampssbinarytrue - As has already been mentioned, there is much information contained in the Qur'an whose source cannot be attributed to anyone other than Allah. For example, who told Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) about the wall of Dhul Qarnayn— a place hundreds of miles to the north? Who told him about embryology? When people assemble facts such as these, if they are not willing to attribute their existence to a divine source, they automatically resort to the assumption someone brought Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) the information and that he used it to fool the people. However, this theory can easily be disproved with one simple question: “If Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a liar, where did he get his confidence? Why did he tell some people outright to their face what others could never say?” Such confidence depends completely upon being convinced that one has a true, divine revelation. A Revelation: Abu Lahab
Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had an uncle by the name of Abu Lahab. This man hated Islam to such an extent that he used to follow the Prophet around in order to discredit him. If Abu Lahab saw the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) speaking to a stranger, he would wait until they parted and he would go to the stranger and ask him, "What did he tell you? Did he say, ‘Black?' Well, it's white. Did he say ‘morning?' Well, it's night." He faithfully said the exact opposite of whatever he heard Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and the Muslims say.
However, about ten years before Abu Lahab died, a little chapter in the Qur'an (Surat Al-Masad, 111) was revealed about him. It distinctly stated that he would go to the fire (Hell). In other words, it affirmed that he would never become a Muslim and would, therefore, be condemned forever. For ten years, all Abu Lahab had to do was say, "I heard that it has been revealed to Muhammad that I will never change—that I will never become a Muslim and will enter the Hellfire. Well, I want to become Muslim now. How do you like that? What do you think of your divine revelation now?" But he never did that. And yet, that is exactly the kind of behavior one would have expected from him, since he always sought to contradict Islam.
In essence, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “You hate me and you want to finish me? Here, say these words and I am finished. Come on, say them!” But Abu Lahab never said them. Ten years! And in all that time he never accepted Islam or even became sympathetic to the Islamic cause.
How could Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) have possibly known for sure that Abu Lahab would fulfill the Qur'anic revelation if he (Muhammad) was not truly the messenger of Allah? How could he possibly have been so confident as to give someone 10 years to discredit his claim of Prophethood? The only answer is that he was Allah's messenger; for in order to put forth such a risky challenge, one has to be entirely convinced that one has a divine revelation.
The Flight
Another example of the confidence which Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had in his own Prophethood and, consequently, in the divine protection of himself and his message, was when he left Makkah and hid in a cave with Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) during their emigration from Makkah to Madinah. The two clearly saw people coming to kill them, Abu Bakr was afraid. Certainly, if Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a liar, a forger, and one who was trying to fool the people into believing that he was a prophet, one would have expected him to say in such a circumstance to his friend, "Hey, Abu Bakr, see if you can find a back way out of this cave." Or, "Squat down in that corner over there and keep quiet." Yet, in fact, what he said to Abu Bakr clearly illustrated his confidence. He told him, "Relax! Allah is with us and Allah will save us!" Now, if one knows that one is fooling the people, where does one get this kind of attitude? In fact, such a frame of mind is not characteristic of a liar or a forger at all.
So, as has been previously mentioned, the non-Muslims go around and around in a circle, searching for a way out—some way to explain the findings in the Qur'an without attributing them to their proper source. On one hand, they tell you on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday that "the man was a liar," and on the other hand, on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday they tell you that "he was crazy." What they refuse to accept is that one cannot have it both ways; yet they need both theories, both excuses to explain the information in the Qur'an.
An Encounter with a Minister
About seven years ago, I had a minister over to my home. In the particular room that we were sitting in, there was a Qur'an on the table, face down, and so the minister was not aware of which book it was. In the midst of a discussion, I pointed to the Qur'an and said, “I have confidence in that book.” Looking at the Qur'an but not knowing which book it was, he replied, “Well, I tell you, if that book is not the Bible, it was written by a man!” In response to his statement, I said, “Let me tell you something about what is in that book.” And in just three to four minutes, I related to him a few things contained in the Qur'an. After just those three or four minutes, he completely changed his position and declared, “You are right. A man did not write that book, the Devil wrote it!” Indeed, possessing such an attitude is very unfortunate, for many reasons. For one thing, it is a very quick and cheap excuse. It is an instant exit out of an uncomfortable situation.
As a matter of fact, there is a famous story in the Bible that mentions how one day, some of the Jews were witnesses when Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) raised a m an from the dead. The man had been dead for four days, yet when Jesus arrived, he simply said, “Get up!” and the man arose and walked away. At such a sight, some of the Jews who were watching said disbelievingly, “This is the Devil. The Devil helped him!” Now this story is rehearsed very often in churches all over the world, and people cry big tears over it, saying, “Oh, if I had been there, I would not have been as stupid as the Jews!” Yet, ironically, these people do exactly what the Jews did when in just three minutes you show them only a small part of the Qur'an and all they can say is, “Oh, the Devil did it. The devil wrote that book!” Because they are truly backed into a corner and have no other viable answer, they resort to the quickest and cheapest excuse available.
Dr. Gary Miller is a Canadian former Christian theologian and minister who converted to Islam. He now works on spreading and preaching Islam to the world



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جوري
04-20-2010, 09:51 PM
Examining The Qur'an
It is worthwhile knowing something about the Orientalism and its distortion of Islam. The academic study of the Oriental East by the Occidental West was often motivated and often co-operated hand-in-hand with the imperialistic aims of the European colonial powers. Without a doubt, the foundations of Orientalism are in the maxim "Know thy enemy". When the Christian Nations of Europe began their long campaign to colonize and conquer the rest of the world for their own benefit, they brought their academic and missionary resources to bear in order to help them with their task. Orientalists and missionaries whose ranks often overlapped, not just the servants of an imperialist government who were using their services as a way to subdue or weaken an enemy, however subtly.
Quite a few Orientalist scholars were Christian missionaries. Two examples worth mentioning are that of Sir William Muir and Rev. St. Claire Tisdall, who were active missionaries and authors of several books on Islam. Today, these books are viewed as very biased studies, even though they continue to be used as references for those wishing to attack Islam to this very day. That Christians were the source of some of the worst lies and distortions about Islam should come as no surprise, since Islam was its main "competitor" on the stage of World Religions. Far from honouring the commandment not to bear false witness against one's neighbour, Christians distortions and outright lies about Islam were widespread.
The modern day Orientalists may have become de-Christianised, but there still exist some age-old notions about Islam. The Christian missionaries as usual, rely on the material of Orientalists. But unfortunately, the Orientalists do not say what the Christian missionaries would like to point out. Hence misquoting is very rife in Christian missionary writing as most of the articles below would show.
This page exclusively deals with the Christian missionary propaganda, lies and distortion about the Qur'an. The Muslims assert that the Qur'an is same as recited by the Prophet Muhammad(P). There are no additional materials added to it nor subtracted after the death of the Prophet(P).
We have divided them into following sections so as to enable the reader to understand the issues involved here.

Textual Integrity

Logical Consistency

Miraculous Features

Sources Of The Qur'an

Issue Of Abrogation


Tafsir of the Qur'an
In this section, the Tafsir of some of the important verses of the Qur'an misquoted by the Christian missionaries would be provided along with the methodology of interpreting the Qur'an.

Qur'anic Studies
The content is be primarily the interesting papers published in peer-reviewed journals. Some material is also the excerpts from books. The aim of bringing such material on the web is to disseminate interesting information which otherwise would end up getting stacked in the libraries, unread.

Integrity of the Bible according to the Qur'an?
May be we should first check what the Church tradition has to say about the integrity or lack of it of the Bible!

The Canons Of The Old Testament & The New Testament Through The Ages
A comprehensive collection of biblical canons throughout the history from the time of Jesus to the modern day critical editions.

On The Textual Sources Of The New International Version (NIV) Bible
What are the textual sources of the NIV Bible? Can these textual sources be considered "inspired" or "original"? Such issues are dealt with in this article. It should be added that the arguments made against the "inspiration" or "originality" of textual sources of the NIV Bible are also valid for RSV, NASV and other Bibles. Please note that the article is not about translations of the Bible; it is about their textual sources.

The Integrity Of The Bible According To The Church Tradition
What about the Bible at the time of Muhammad(P)?

Is The Bible In Our Hands Same As During The Time Of Muhammad(P)?
Insha'allah, more information can be obtained by clicking on the above and following the argument through the links.
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EllyDicious
04-20-2010, 10:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Logikos
Hi,

I'm a student from the UK, currently investigating different faiths, belief systems and worldviews. I hope you won't mind me asking questions about your beliefs and why you hold them. In particular I'm interested in reasons to believe that the Quran is the Word of Allah - what is the strongest argument for this?

Logikos
I'm here for the same reason.

Welcome!
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Beardo
04-21-2010, 02:24 AM
Logikos, you got quite a bit of information thrown at you. :) Well, I hope you are able to find your purpose and more on these forums. Welcome aboard.
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Logikos
04-21-2010, 08:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Greetings Logikos..
here is a good place to start..
format_quote Originally Posted by Rashad
Logikos, you got quite a bit of information thrown at you. :) Well, I hope you are able to find your purpose and more on these forums. Welcome aboard.
Hi The Vale's Lily and Rashad,

Yes there's certainly a lot of information to go through there! Before we get into the "nitty-gritty" of looking at the evidence, it would be really helpful for me if you could outline the basic argument (the premises and the conclusion) because I want to make sure that I'm investigating a sound line of reasoning before I begin.

Dr Miller's argument seemed to go as follows:
P1: The Quran contains a true statement that requires an explanation for its source.
P2: The Quran being a divine revelation has sufficient explanatory power and is possible.
P3: No other explanation is possible.
C: The Quran is a divine revelation.
(Does this seem a fair representation of his argument?)

Dr Miller didn't go into any detail to establish P1; he assumed this premise at the beginning of the article, but only mentioned some candidate statements later on (at the beginning of Part 2) without demonstrating that they require an explanation for their source. Does he do so elsewhere?

But if Dr Miller is able to demonstrate P1, it seems to me that his line of argument is redundant. A true statement only requires an explanation of its source if it is some way "miraculous" (with this term being appropriately defined). But if such statements exist, then a far simpler line of argument:

Q1: A book contains a true miraculous statement only if that statement was divinely revealed.
Q2: The Quran contains a true miraculous statement.
D: The Quran contains a divinely revealed statement.

(Note that it is not possible to infer D', the conclusion that the entire Qur'an was divinely revealed).

Any comments?

Logikos
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Logikos
04-21-2010, 09:05 PM
(Note that it is not possible to infer D', the conclusion that the entire Qur'an was divinely revealed).
EDIT: (Note that it is not possible to logically infer D', the conclusion that the entire Qur'an was divinely revealed, from D, but that is a "common sense" inference).
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جوري
04-21-2010, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Logikos

Any comments?

Logikos
Indeed, that piece is excerpted from his book, if you desire further elaboration of said points raised you'll need to either purchase his book or see if you can find it on line.. it is called the amazing Quran..

all the best
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جوري
04-21-2010, 09:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Logikos
EDIT: (Note that it is not possible to logically infer D', the conclusion that the entire Qur'an was divinely revealed, from D, but that is a "common sense" inference).
You'll have to then logically produce evidence to the contrary or an alternative source for the verses you deem not divinely inspired!

all the best
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Logikos
04-21-2010, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Indeed, that piece is excerpted from his book, if you desire further elaboration of said points raised you'll need to either purchase his book or see if you can find it on line.. it is called the amazing Quran..

all the best
Thanks, I've found it as a pdf and I'll have a look at his argument in more detail. Have I properly understood the gist of his argument so far?

format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
You'll have to then logically produce evidence to the contrary or an alternative source for the verses you deem not divinely inspired!
That comment was only in regard to my reworking of Dr Miller's argument - that there was no logical inference from "one statement in the Quran was divinely revealed" to "the entire Quran was divinely revealed" (this is clearly true as it's logically possibly for a book to be partially divinely revealed). I'm not (at least not at the moment!) claiming that any verses were not divinely revealed.

Logikos
Reply

جوري
04-21-2010, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Logikos
Thanks, I've found it as a pdf and I'll have a look at his argument in more detail. Have I properly understood the gist of his argument so far?
If we are taking the reductionist approach I guess!


That comment was only in regard to my reworking of Dr Miller's argument - that there was no logical inference from "one statement in the Quran was divinely revealed" to "the entire Quran was divinely revealed" (this is clearly true as it's logically possibly for a book to be partially divinely revealed). I'm not (at least not at the moment!) claiming that any verses were not divinely revealed.

Logikos
For us to discuss this portion of events you'll have to at least have read the Quran..

with that I'd like to :welcome: you aboard and if you have further question I ask that you take it to the main forum so everyone can participate since I might not be able to dedicate singularly and due to time constraints to this thread -- further I am not sure what everyone reads threads made on the introduce yourself section..

all the best
Reply

marwen
04-21-2010, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Logikos
... that there was no logical inference from "one statement in the Quran was divinely revealed" to "the entire Quran was divinely revealed" (this is clearly true as it's logically possibly for a book to be partially divinely revealed).
There is a possibility that this implication can be true : if we prove that one statement is divinely revealed(and therefore TRUE), and if we find also that this statement says that 'the whole quran is revealed'. then we can deduce that the whole qur'an is divinely revealed.
I'm not saying that I can now logically prove the premise, but just to indicate that there is a possibility that the logical inference you mentioned can be true. Am I right ?
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Logikos
04-21-2010, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
There is a possibility that this implication can be true : if we prove that one statement is divinely revealed(and therefore TRUE), and if we find also that this statement says that 'the whole quran is revealed'. then we can deduce that the whole qur'an is divinely revealed.
I'm not saying that I can now logically prove the premise, but just to indicate that there is a possibility that the logical inference you mentioned can be true. Am I right ?
Nice idea. ;) But finding a example where the inference holds is not enough to show that the inference holds in general. Also, the whole thing is circular - the very thing we are trying to deduce is that the whole Quran is divinely revealed.
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Logikos
04-21-2010, 10:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
with that I'd like to :welcome: you aboard and if you have further question I ask that you take it to the main forum so everyone can participate since I might not be able to dedicate singularly and due to time constraints to this thread -- further I am not sure what everyone reads threads made on the introduce yourself section..
I shall do that. Many thanks for taking the time to respond here, it is much appreciated!

Logikos
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
04-22-2010, 05:43 AM
i havnt read all the replies in this thread, so i hope im not repeating anything.

I don’t know if my type answer to your question will really appeal to you, but it’s as I see it.

Sometimes all it really boils down to is faith. I can’t prove to you that the Quran is the word of God because it involves having faith. I know that seems like the typical “scape-goat” for people like us, but if you contemplate it and what it involves, it makes perfect sense.

It pointless for me to say: The Quran is the word of god because xyz. There needs to be some sort of basis there to begin with and once you understand this “basis” then everything will probably fall into place. The basis that we need to start with is to understand that The Quran is tied with a set of other beliefs. In other words, you can’t have one without the other and It doesn’t make sense to try to believe and understand one aspect of these beliefs whilst being ignorant and thinking that other aspects of such beliefs are irrelevant...everything needs to be understood and considered in regards to whatever it is comes with.

What I’m trying to say is that, if you have faith/believe in Allah (the revealer of the Quran) then naturally it becomes easy for you to understand everything else that follows-in this case The Quran.

If you believe in Allah then you believe that the Quran is True...so without believing in Allah, it will be very hard to explain and prove to you that the Quran is the Word of Allah and that it has any truth in it.

Without that faith and “prerequisite” there is nothing there to build on, thus trying to convince someone that the Quran is the word of god, is quite difficult, possibly impossible as well. See how these things rely on faith?

I’m not saying that it’s impossible to believe in the Quran without believing in Allah, but what I’m trying to illustrate is that to believe and understand the concepts of Islam, especially one concerning the unseen, eg God and those which do not depend on scientific evidence to prove them, does largely depends on ‘faith.’

Of course we may come across scientist findings that actually conform to what it says in the Quran, however, this does not (at least it shouldn’t) be used as primary evidence that the Quran is the word of God for the simple fact that that ‘faith’ should already be present in us for us to accept that the Quran is the word of god, regardless of what science may find, even if it does conform to the Quran.

Something else that I think is important to mention is that since belief in the Quran is about having faith, it is important to try and understand it from the aspect that it is intended to be understood and not introduce irrelevant methods in attempt to explain, accept or debate about it.

Many people (especially non-Muslims looking for answers) try to tie scientific/physical evidences and rely heavily on this to prove that the Quran is/isn’t true. No-one said that scientific/physical evidences are necessary to understand where the Quran came from. Matters of faith don’t need scientist findings; they simply rely on the conviction of the heart.

I’m not saying these scientific findings should be disregarded, but they certainly shouldn’t affirm our faith either as these scientist findings are not something that Faith/Islam is founded upon or that faith requires.
Once it is understand how these things are meant to be approached, then they become more clear and understandable.

This is why I find so very often people who are searching for answering often fall into mistakes-because they are approaching it from a way that it isn’t meant to be approach and they are applying the wrong methods in searching for their answers.
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Misz_Muslimah
04-23-2010, 08:52 PM
Welcome to the forum Logikos
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