/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Friendship between Muslims and non-Muslims



LauraS
04-23-2010, 10:40 PM
Hello, I wanted to talk about something I had read once, a Muslim asking for advice and the advice he received. The man had been given a Christmas present by his Christian neighbours and wondered whether he should accept the gift and should be friends with his neighbours. The response was that a Muslim should only treat a non-Muslim kindly to treat and persuade them that Islam is the right path to take, other than that there should be no feelings of actual warmth and friendship between them.

I'm not sure if people on here actually agree with this, but to me it seems a shame that Muslims should feel that they mustn't be friends with any other than their own religion. I have a Muslim friend and I'm quite sure her feelings are real friendship and not just desires to turn me to Islam. I think it may be this attitude among some Muslims that is part of the reason why they have had a more difficult time integrating into western societies, they almost keep themselves aloof. Sikhs and Hindus have never really had any problems and they integrate more. I am not trying to cause trouble with this, they are just observations. Some Muslims live n the west yet completely disapprove of the way of life and the people, almost looking down on them.

Why can't it just be accpeted that we have different beliefs and that's the end of that (obviously I'm not being so naive as to say this of the extremists of the world who are the cause of all the problems with religion) I'm on about your average person. Also, the fact is that where you are born and into what culture, obviously influences your beliefs. I was born into the UK and have been christened, if I am anything, I would consider myself a Christian but I''m not sure what I truly believe in. How am I to know Islam is the right religion to follow if Allah has never come to me and said "Hello I'm Allah, become a Muslim" the same of our Christian version of God has never some to anyone of Eastern origins. Surely if this is the case then any God out there must realise people born into a different culture can't possibly know they are following the wrong religion? Anyone on this board could have been born into a western family and could have become a Christian and never dream of becoming a Muslim and vice versa, it's all a matter of chance.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
ardianto
04-24-2010, 11:09 AM
Hello Laura,

If a man comes to you and say "Hello, I am Allah, become a Muslim", he must be not a Muslim.
If a man comes to you and say "Hello, I am God, follow my religion", he must be not believer of any religion. Believers never declare themselves as God.

I am not living in west, but in Indonesia, a country that has largest number of Muslim. But I have many non-Muslim friends, even there are Christians in my big family.

I never have a problem in relationship with my Christian relatives or my Christian friends. They always respect to my religion, I always respect to their religion. They have good religious tolerance.

But I cannot say all Christian are same like them. There are intolerant Christians who always try to converse Muslim with tricks and money.

Not so different than Muslims. There are some intolerant Muslims who always try to spread hatred to non-Muslim. But of course, there are many Muslims who have good religious tolerance.

Laura, if you assume Muslims are intolerant, that is because you look at only to few intolerant Muslims. I hope tomorrow you will meet tolerant Muslims.
Reply

Supreme
04-24-2010, 11:19 AM
Well, I have two Muslim friends, and Islam and religion seldom ever comes up as a conversational topic. They haven't even joked about me being a non-Muslim- and in today's society of Christians, Muslims, atheists, Sikhs, Hindus etc- if you cannot take friends from all religions, you are not just socially retarded, but actually rather backwards and pretty stupid, too.
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-24-2010, 11:55 AM
A Muslim should not take non-Muslims as friends. A Muslim only takes them as fellow humans with whom he/she should maintain a professional relationship and work in a humane manner. Friendship means approval of the beliefs of the friend. A Muslim does not approve of kufr.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
EllyDicious
04-24-2010, 11:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
A Muslim should not take non-Muslims as friends. A Muslim only takes them as fellow humans with whom he/she should maintain a professional relationship and work in a humane manner. Friendship means approval of the beliefs of the friend. A Muslim does not approve of kufr.
Well you're wrong. Because real life experiences show that true love and true friendship overcome the boundaries of religion.
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-24-2010, 12:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
Well you're wrong. Because real life experiences show that true love and true friendship overcome the boundaries of religion.
If that is true then there would be no need for religion aka Islam. Since that is wrong, you are wrong.

For an atheist/agnostic, true love and true friendship can have different meanings at different times. So how do you standardize "true love, true friendship" in the absence of certain maxims which are derived from something Divine?
Reply

EllyDicious
04-24-2010, 12:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
If that is true then there would be no need for religion aka Islam. Since that is wrong, you are wrong.
It's wrong according to Islam. And just because it's wrong according to it, doesn't mean it's wrong for real.
Also, as I already told you , facts in life have proven the opposite of what Islam says. So this leads me to think that Islam is wrong.
Reply

LauraS
04-24-2010, 12:31 PM
ardianto- of course I've met tolerant Muslims (that's why I have a Muslim friend) and I certainly wouldn't suggest all Muslims are intolerant. I don't mean a man coming up and saying "Hello I am Allah" I'm on about if God (not matter what religion it happens to be) just revealed himself to all humans I might make things a lot easier.

mad scientist- that's why I think problems arise, yes Muslims and people of other beliefs can live together, but I think only if they mix as friends can there be true respect. Otherwise there will always be this coldness that can lead to distrust and trouble. Like I said before people's beliefs all depend on which culture you're born into anyway, you could easily have been born into a Christian, Hindu or Sikh family.
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-24-2010, 12:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
ardianto- of course I've met tolerant Muslims (that's why I have a Muslim friend) and I certainly wouldn't suggest all Muslims are intolerant. I don't mean a man coming up and saying "Hello I am Allah" I'm on about if God (not matter what religion it happens to be) just revealed himself to all humans I might make things a lot easier.

mad scientist- that's why I think problems arise, yes Muslims and people of other beliefs can live together, but I think only if they mix as friends can there be true respect. Otherwise there will always be this coldness that can lead to distrust and trouble. Like I said before people's beliefs all depend on which culture you're born into anyway, you could easily have been born into a Christian, Hindu or Sikh family.
That is wrong. When you go to see a family physician or your family doctor, do you make him/her your friend? no. On the contrary, he works with you in a professional relationship to address your concerns. You still trust your family doctor, dont you? Yet can you call him/her on the weekend to have BBQ with him/her? No.

That shows that you do not need to be a "friend" to develop mutual respect for other humans.
Reply

LauraS
04-24-2010, 12:47 PM
There's a difference between a doctor and patients and millions of people. People should integrate for there to be trust in society. No one should keep themsleves aloof.
Reply

aadil77
04-24-2010, 12:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Well, I have two Muslim friends, and Islam and religion seldom ever comes up as a conversational topic. They haven't even joked about me being a non-Muslim- and in today's society of Christians, Muslims, atheists, Sikhs, Hindus etc- if you cannot take friends from all religions, you are not just socially retarded, but actually rather backwards and pretty stupid, too.
Lol you should be able to get along with everyone
Reply

aadil77
04-24-2010, 01:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
There's a difference between a doctor and patients and millions of people. People should integrate for there to be trust in society. No one should keep themsleves aloof.
Basically in islam you can integrate, get along with others, be social nd all that. You're just not meant to devlope love for non muslims, you're not meant to get overly friendly to the extent that it affects your faith and you start imitating them and commit the same sins as them, same with bad muslims.
Reply

Getoffmyback
04-24-2010, 01:11 PM
Muslims do have friendships with non muslims everywhere.

But the modern life revolves around clubbing drinking fornication bla bla bla. So thats Why a serious practicing muslim can't fit in such friendships they try to keep it professional and respectful!


Its funny how true love also fails sometimes at the last minute decision between 2 lovers from different religions .
Reply

أبو سليمان عمر
04-24-2010, 01:26 PM
......With regard to non-Muslims, the Muslim should disavow himself of them, and he should not feel any love in his heart towards them. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth (i.e. Islamic Monotheism, this Qur’aan, and Muhammad), and have driven out the Messenger (Muhammad) and yourselves (from your homeland) because you believe in Allaah your Lord! If you have come forth to strive in My Cause and to seek My Good Pleasure, (then take not these disbelievers and polytheists, as your friends). You show friendship to them in secret, while I am All‑Aware of what you conceal and what you reveal. And whosoever of you (Muslims) does that, then indeed he has gone (far) astray from the Straight Path”

[al-Mumtahanah 60:1]

“Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibraaheem (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: ‘Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allaah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever until you believe in Allaah Alone’”

[al-Mumtahanah 60:4]

But this does not mean that a Muslim cannot interact with them in a nice manner that will encourage them to enter Islam, so long as that is within the guidelines of sharee’ah, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity”

[al-Mumtahanah 60:8]

The Muslim should strive hard to call non-Muslims to Islam through all possible permissible means, in the hope that they may benefit from that and respond, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided”

[al-Nahl 16:125]

“And who is better in speech than he who [says: ‘My Lord is Allaah (believes in His Oneness),’ and then stands firm (acts upon His Order), and] invites (men) to Allaah’s (Islamic Monotheism), and does righteous deeds, and says: ‘I am one of the Muslims’”

[Fussilat 41:33]

Muslim narrated in his Saheeh (2674) from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever calls people to guidance will have a reward like the reward of those who follow him, without that detracting from their rewards in the slightest, and whoever calls people to misguidance will have a burden of sin like the burden of those who follow him, without that detracting from their sins in the slightest.” ........................

Something else that will help you to stop mixing with non-Muslims is to remember that these kaafirs – even though they may have good manners and some good qualities – also do a number of seriously wrong things, any one of which is sufficient to nullify any good deeds that they may do. Among these evil things is the belief of the Christians – for example – that God is one of three (trinity), as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Surely, disbelievers are those who said: ‘Allaah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).’ But there is no Ilaah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilaah (God —Allaah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them”

[al-Maa’idah 5:73]

The other kaafir nations all attribute partners to Allaah, or else they do not believe in God at all.

The kuffaar in general do not believe in the Qur’aan or in the message of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), rather they reject the Qur’aan and they reject our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); so how can a Muslim be inclined towards them with their kufr and misguidance?

Even if they give you some of your rights by treating you nicely, they do not give Allaah His rights and they do not give the Qur’aan its rights and they do not give our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) his rights. The rights of Allaah and His Book and His Prophet are more important than our personal rights. Remember this, for this is one of the things that will help you to hate them and regard them as enemies until they believe in Allaah alone, as mentioned in the aayah quoted above (interpretation of the meaning):

“Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibraaheem (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: ‘Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allaah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever until you believe in Allaah Alone’”

[al-Mumtahanah 60:4]

But we reiterate that there is nothing to stop the Muslim from treating them kindly within the limits set by sharee’ah, especially if they are among those who treat us well. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Is there any reward for good other than good?”

[al-Rahmaan 55:60]
Reply

EllyDicious
04-24-2010, 01:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Getoffmyback


Its funny how true love also fails sometimes at the last minute decision between 2 lovers from different religions .
It's also funny how true love fails at the last minute decision between 2 lovers of the same religion.

So when something is meant to fail, it fails regardless of religious point of view that partners have.
Reply

أبو سليمان عمر
04-24-2010, 01:29 PM
now you have the reverts how can we say" we cant love them and it is my mom and dad brother or sister didnt revert with me" well this is natural love but still we hate the belief the believe and try to call them to the truth

Love of Allah
by Imâm Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah

The love of the Beloved
must be unconditionally returned.

If you claim love
yet oppose the Beloved,
then your love is but a pretence.
You love the enemies of your Beloved
and still seek love in return.

You fight the beloved of your Beloved.

Is this Love or the following of shaytaan?

True devotion is nothing
but total submission
of body and soul
to One Love.

We have seen humans claim to submit,
yet their loyalties are many.

They put their trust here, and their hope there,
and their love is without consequence.
Reply

ardianto
04-24-2010, 01:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
A Muslim should not take non-Muslims as friends. A Muslim only takes them as fellow humans with whom he/she should maintain a professional relationship and work in a humane manner. Friendship means approval of the beliefs of the friend. A Muslim does not approve of kufr.
Maybe your definition of friendship is different than mine.
I am never thinking their religion is right, and they are never thinking my religion is right. But we always respect each other.

I don't see anything wrong if I lunch together with my Christian friends. But of course, I cannot pray before lunch together with them, this is strictly prohibited. They must pray in Christian way and I pray in Islamic way.
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-24-2010, 01:52 PM
@ umar: jazakAllah for that beautiful response.
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-24-2010, 02:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Maybe your definition of friendship is different than mine.
I am never thinking their religion is right, and they are never thinking my religion is right. But we always respect each other.

I don't see anything wrong if I lunch together with my Christian friends. But of course, I cannot pray before lunch together with them, this is strictly prohibited. They must pray in Christian way and I pray in Islamic way.
So if I have a lunch with a kaafir, does it mean I am his friend?
Reply

Skavau
04-24-2010, 02:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
If that is true then there would be no need for religion aka Islam. Since that is wrong, you are wrong.

For an atheist/agnostic, true love and true friendship can have different meanings at different times. So how do you standardize "true love, true friendship" in the absence of certain maxims which are derived from something Divine?
People do, despite holding differing beliefs in all walks of life show affection for one another be it a bond of brotherhood or intimate. You you seem to be saying pragmatically is that for you, Islam is a barrier (that you accept) towards engaging in such yourself because it would be a passive approval of their disbelief in Islam.
Reply

aamirsaab
04-24-2010, 02:44 PM
The very first school friend I ever had was a non-muslim. In fact, most of my child hood friends were non-muslim (there were only 4 muslims in our entire year back then)

I regularly eat halaal lunches with one my of non-muslim friends from university. It's not a big deal - he has no preference either way and I benefit from companionship and dawah - our last meet up I explained what the concept of halal meet was all about.
Reply

Argamemnon
04-24-2010, 02:58 PM
We can be friends with non-Muslims but we are not allowed to take them as allies/protectors - especially during conflicts between Muslims and non-Muslims. This is perfectly logical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQTHVJ68MCI
Reply

ardianto
04-24-2010, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
So if I have a lunch with a kaafir, does it mean I am his friend?
If you regard him as your friend, he is your friend.
If you do not regard him as your friend, he is not your friend.
Reply

Pygoscelis
04-24-2010, 03:03 PM
That this topic is even a question shows a major problem with Islam. It should be a no-brainer that people can be friends.
Reply

ardianto
04-24-2010, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
We can be friends with non-Muslims but we are not allowed to take them as allies/protectors - especially during conflicts between Muslims and non-Muslims. This is perfectly logical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQTHVJ68MCI
Tell it to Muslims who allow non-Muslims army build some bases in their Muslim country in the war against Iraqi people.
Reply

Argamemnon
04-24-2010, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That this topic is even a question shows a major problem with Islam. It should be a no-brainer that people can be friends.
It depends on the person of course, if a non-Muslim is trying to get me to consume alcohol or other things forbidden in Islam, I must stay away from him/her.
Reply

Argamemnon
04-24-2010, 03:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Tell it to Muslims who allow non-Muslims army build some bases in their Muslim country in the war against Iraqi people.
Yes, many Arab countries (including Saudi Arabia) and Turkey and others have betrayed Muslim countries. They still do.
Reply

EllyDicious
04-24-2010, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
It depends on the person of course, if a non-Muslim is trying to get me to consume alcohol or other things forbidden in Islam, I must stay away from him/her.
Sure it depends on the person. Just like a Muslim is trying to be friends with me in order to include me in their Islamic beliefs.

it's the same situation, no?

I try to get you to use alcohol, you try to convert me into Muslim. Both of us have hidden purposes..and this is not a good thing.
Reply

Argamemnon
04-24-2010, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
Sure it depends on the person. Just like a Muslim is trying to be friends with me in order to include me in their Islamic beliefs.

it's the same situation, no?

I try to get you to use alcohol, you try to convert me into Muslim. Both of us have hidden purposes..and this is not a good thing.
It's not my concern if you have a problem with Islam. We will invite people to Islam, not force them. If you have a problem with this then you could simply avoid Muslims. Also, you are mistaken, Muslims have to be nice to everyone, including non-Muslims, even when they reject Islam - as long as they are not hostile. We are not treating them with kindness only when inviting them to Islam.
Reply

ardianto
04-24-2010, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Yes, many Arab countries (including Saudi Arabia) and Turkey and others have betrayed Muslim countries. They still do.
Actually, I talked about fatwa, not agreement that signed by secular govt.
Reply

ardianto
04-24-2010, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
I try to get you to use alcohol, you try to convert me into Muslim. Both of us have hidden purposes..and this is not a good thing.
If those Christians are still my friends, and I am still their friends, this is because we do not have hidden purposes.
Reply

Getoffmyback
04-24-2010, 03:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
Sure it depends on the person. Just like a Muslim is trying to be friends with me in order to include me in their Islamic beliefs.

it's the same situation, no?

I try to get you to use alcohol, you try to convert me into Muslim. Both of us have hidden purposes..and this is not a good thing.
Hahaha you know that the judge will kick you out of the court room if you present your case like this. That if you graduated .

Our hidden what lol . How can you drag me to drink alcohol? Showing me the benefits of it? Or after showing me couple of people throwing up their stomac in night club's toilets!

You have to realise that people will stay the way they are.... Independent of your openinon about them.

You brain consumed too much conspiracy theories. The black label type.
Reply

EllyDicious
04-24-2010, 03:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
It's not my concern if you have a problem with Islam. We will invite people to Islam, not force them. If you have a problem with this then you could simply avoid Muslims. Also, you are mistaken, Muslims have to be nice to everyone, including non-Muslims, even when they reject Islam - as long as they are not hostile. We are not treating them with kindness only when inviting them to Islam.
It doesn't matter if I have a problem with Islam or not, what I was trying to say is that intentions behind a Muslim or a non-Muslim could be the same so this doesn't make Muslims any better than non-Muslims.
Just like you could avoid alcohol drinkers who obviusly wouldn't force you to drink.
Reply

Argamemnon
04-24-2010, 03:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Actually, I talked about fatwa, not agreement that signed by secular govt.
Which fatwa, by whom? What does this fatwa say?
Reply

EllyDicious
04-24-2010, 03:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
If those Christians are still my friends, and I am still their friends, this is because we do not have hidden purposes.
I know. I was referring to the example Argamemnon gave about non-muslim drinkers.
Reply

Argamemnon
04-24-2010, 03:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
It doesn't matter if I have a problem with Islam or not, what I was trying to say is that intentions behind a Muslim or a non-Muslim could be the same so this doesn't make Muslims any better than non-Muslims.
Just like you could avoid alcohol drinkers who obviusly wouldn't force you to drink.
I still don't understand what your 'objections' are. Do you think it's wrong if I avoid a non-Muslim who is trying to persuade me to consume alcohol or commit fornication?
Reply

marwen
04-24-2010, 03:27 PM
Friendship with non-muslims is not opposed in Islam in any way. But this friendship must stop when it involves harm to muslims or disrespect to Islam. friendship or brotherhood in humanity is recommended in Islam, but not alliance against muslims (what some muslim countries are doing against each other with alliance with non-muslim governments is unacceptable).
But if we avoid harm and disrespect, nothing in Islam tells us to oppose friendship with others.
Reply

EllyDicious
04-24-2010, 03:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Getoffmyback
Hahaha you know that the judge will kick you out of the court room if you present your case like this.
Maybe judges of Islam yes. But judges over here wouldn't be so narrow-minded.

format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
I still don't understand what your 'objections' are. Do you think it's wrong if I avoid a non-Muslim who is trying to persuade me to consume alcohol or commit fornication?
I didn't say it's wrong of you to avoid non-muslim drinkers. Just like it wouldn't be wrong of me to avoid a Muslim who is trying to persuade me to become Muslim or impose me his beliefs.

Was I was meaning is that, sometimes, both Muslims and non-Muslims have hidden purposes in a friendship that we should be careful about.
Reply

ardianto
04-24-2010, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Which fatwa, by whom? What does this fatwa say?
Not by Turk scholar, but by a Great Scholar from other Muslim country during Gulf War.

But I am sorry brother, I cannot give you a further information in this forum. That fatwa was known as controversial fatwa.
Reply

Supreme
04-24-2010, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
Friendship with non-muslims is not opposed in Islam in any way. But this friendship must stop when it involves harm to muslims or disrespect to Islam. friendship or brotherhood in humanity is recommended in Islam, but not alliance against muslims (what some muslim countries are doing against each other with alliance with non-muslim governments is unacceptable).
But if we avoid harm and disrespect, nothing in Islam tells us to oppose friendship with others.
Don't see anything wrong with that. As a matter of fact, it's a good thing. It's just an Islamic version of not wanting to get involved with the wrong sort of non-believer crowd.
Reply

أبو سليمان عمر
04-24-2010, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That this topic is even a question shows a major problem with Islam. It should be a no-brainer that people can be friends.
The kuffaar in general do not believe in the Qur’aan or in the message of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), rather they reject the Qur’aan and they reject our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); so how can a Muslim be inclined towards them with their kufr and misguidance?
Reply

glo
04-24-2010, 06:26 PM
But isn't every kaffir a potential future Muslim?
Reply

aamirsaab
04-24-2010, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
But isn't every kaffir a potential future Muslim?
Indeed.

But, there are what I like to call no hopers where it's best to just leave them be (and not associate with them full stop) - they aren't interested in Islam and hate you for being muslim. You know, the haters.
Reply

glo
04-24-2010, 06:52 PM
I understand, aamirsaab.

BTW, I like your signature, and it seems very fitting in this thread. :)
Reply

Pygoscelis
04-24-2010, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Umar^111
The kuffaar in general do not believe in the Qur’aan or in the message of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), rather they reject the Qur’aan and they reject our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); so how can a Muslim be inclined towards them with their kufr and misguidance?
Are you unable to be friends with people you have ideological differences with? I am diametrically opposed to Islam but I would have no hesitation in befriending a muslim.
Reply

Supreme
04-24-2010, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Are you unable to be friends with people you have ideological differences with? I am diametrically opposed to Islam but I would have no hesitation in befriending a muslim.
I do agree that that sounds very paranoid. It's sounds like Islam is a very weak religion as it's incredibly easy to stop believing in it as soon as you meet and befriend a non-believer- and I know that's not true, is it?
Reply

glo
04-24-2010, 09:34 PM
I fairness, there are also Christians who feel very uneasy about 'being yoked' with non-believers.
I suppose being surrounded by influences, which contradict your own religious code, must be quite difficult - especially if you have the fear that such influences will affect not only your life, but your after-life too!

Atheists don't have any concerns about the after-life, so it may come easier for them to accept people from other faiths or none ...

I think the trick is to
a) accept people from other faiths, their traditions and beliefs, and
b) stand firm in your own beliefs at the same time, not feeling pressurised into doing things which are against your faith.

That's easier said than done, I am sure ...
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-24-2010, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
But isn't every kaffir a potential future Muslim?
Thats why we treat them with respect and in a humane manner within the confines of a professional relationship (dawah, colleague, class fellow etc). Does not mean we become their friends and bring them closer to our heart.

I dont think love for the rejector of Allah can enter the heart of one who loves Allah. EVen the possibility of "potential future Muslims." Allah guides whom He wills. Our "friendship" has no bearing on someone's guidance and we would be fools to think that someone was guided because someone is a good dae and gives awesome dawah. Better than the Prophet? No, right? There were still kaafirs in the time of Prophet who did not accept Islam.
Reply

LauraS
04-24-2010, 09:56 PM
I've never rejected Allah, I just was just born into a western family so I naturally wasn't a Muslim. I've never had an enlightening moment that has told me I should convert. Growing up in a society not Islamic how am I meant to know Islam is the correct way? Like I've already said if whatever God is out there announced Himself to the world then it would be a lot easier, but it seems all the different Gods of different religions suddenly stopped taking an active interest around a couple of thousand years ago...
Reply

Pygoscelis
04-24-2010, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I fairness, there are also Christians who feel very uneasy about 'being yoked' with non-believers.
I suppose being surrounded by influences, which contradict your own religious code, must be quite difficult - especially if you have the fear that such influences will affect not only your life, but your after-life too!

Atheists don't have any concerns about the after-life, so it may come easier for them to accept people from other faiths or none ...

I think the trick is to
a) accept people from other faiths, their traditions and beliefs, and
b) stand firm in your own beliefs at the same time, not feeling pressurised into doing things which are against your faith.

That's easier said than done, I am sure ...
Well sure. I also have friends who smoke and drink, but I do neither. We're still friends. I also have friends who are conservatives even though I'm very liberal. Ideology nor habit need hamper a friendship.
Reply

islamirama
04-24-2010, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
I've never rejected Allah, I just was just born into a western family so I naturally wasn't a Muslim. I've never had an enlightening moment that has told me I should convert. Growing up in a society not Islamic how am I meant to know Islam is the correct way? Like I've already said if whatever God is out there announced Himself to the world then it would be a lot easier, but it seems all the different Gods of different religions suddenly stopped taking an active interest around a couple of thousand years ago...
Perhaps you should consider reading up on islam than. The thousands that started reading on Islam post 9-11 did it out of determination to find out what exactly this religion teaches. The 20,000 annual converts in US alone started reading different religious for better understanding. Your birth and up bringing was out of your hands but your choice to read up on Islam and learn about it or remain ignorant and be played by the anti-islam bigots is your choice.
Reply

سيف الله
04-24-2010, 11:56 PM
Salaam

This is an informative article on the Islamic concept of friendship

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/Friendship.htm

I don't know why this issue is such a problem. Muslims choose their friends carefully, sounds sensible, after all Muslims express themselves best when they are with good Muslims friends. I don't buy this 'liberal' notion that you can be friends with anybody, whether we like it or not people with diametrically and irreconcilable views rarely make good friends, theres just too much hypocrisy involved on both sides.

This doesn't mean you cant be civil and fair with people you have little in common with. After all we all have to learn to deal with people we don't like.

I think the trick is to
a) accept people from other faiths, their traditions and beliefs, and
b) stand firm in your own beliefs at the same time, not feeling pressurised into doing things which are against your faith.

That's easier said than done, I am sure ...
Yeah sums it up pretty well, its tricky.

Are you unable to be friends with people you have ideological differences with? I am diametrically opposed to Islam but I would have no hesitation in befriending a muslim.
It depends on the extent of the 'ideological' differences. You oppose and shown contempt for pretty much everything Islam stands for (fair enough) yet you expect Muslims to be 'friends' with you?
Heh heh heh heh The irony is strong in this one.

I wonder if Dawkins would sink to this level.
Reply

LauraS
04-25-2010, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Perhaps you should consider reading up on islam than. The thousands that started reading on Islam post 9-11 did it out of determination to find out what exactly this religion teaches. The 20,000 annual converts in US alone started reading different religious for better understanding. Your birth and up bringing was out of your hands but your choice to read up on Islam and learn about it or remain ignorant and be played by the anti-islam bigots is your choice.
I was just reading the thread that was a message to non-Muslims and the reason why they should convert and I still am not convinced I should worship Allah. I may agree with the principles of Islam and believe that, like all religions, if followed correctly it is a religion of peace. I certainly do not listen to any "anti-Islam bigots", you can't assume that just because I won't convert. The fact is I have not been presented with any proof that Allah is real, that whole message on the other board was no proof at all just what Allah has apparently said. I won't read up on Islamic teachings and suddenly decide to live like a Muslim. For one thing I'm too usd to the way I live now and am perfectly happy with it. That's not to say I live an immoral lifestyle because I don't. I do pray and I hope there is a Gos there listening, but I'm open minded, I don't say any religion is nonsense. Equally you can't say 100% that Allah is there, has he declared himself to you? Muslims are there thinking every non-Muslim is going to Hell, well vice versa with the Christians.
Reply

جوري
04-25-2010, 09:50 PM
Laura S..

No one can convince you to follow or not follow anything, you certainly aren't that easily manipulated of malleable (I hope) you've been bestowed with the gift of reason and that is yours to use and keep.. if you look to the path of the prophets and certainly in their life there should be a lesson for all, none of them went around asking the town's people why they should follow this religion or that.. they contemplated and asked the philosophical questions of themselves before they were answered..

I am going to leave you with the story of the prophet Abraham for in it, is great wisdom and hopefully from his story you should glean that what you think folks should bestow you with, should in fact come from within your own wisdom and reason:

all the best


Prophet Ibrahim
The father of the Prophets
The birth of a Great Prophet
Ibrahim was born in a house of idolaters, in the kingdom of Babylon. His father Aazar was a well known idol sculptor that his people worshipped. As a young child, Ibrahim used to watch his father sculpting these idols from stones or wood. When his father was done with them, Ibrahim would use them as toys, riding on their backs, and kicking them at times. Then after a while, he would see these same statues in the temple, and people prostrating in front of them! Ibrahim asked his father: "Why do you take these toys to the temple?" His father said: "They are statues that represent our gods. We worship them, we ask favors from them, and we offer them presents." Ibrahim's mind rejected this idea, and he felt a repulsion towards the idols.

In search for the Truth
Time went by, and Ibrahim became a young man. He still could not believe that his people were worshipping the statues. He laughed whenever he saw them entering the temple, lowering their heads, silently offering the statues the best of their food, crying and asking forgiveness from them. He started feeling angry towards his people, who could not realize that these are only stones that could neither benefit nor harm them. They could not be gods, they have no power. God is Greater than what his people were worshipping, Most Powerful, Most Magnificent. One could not find Him sitting on a table in a temple!
One night, Ibrahim went up to the mountain, leaned against a rock, and looked up to the sky. He saw a shining star, and told his people: "Could this be my Lord?" But when it set he said: "I don't like those that set." The star has disappeared, it could not be God. God is always present. Then he saw the moon rising in splendor and told them: "Could this be my Lord?" But it also set. At daybreak, he saw the sun rising and said: t "Could this be my Lord, this is bigger?" But when the sun set he said: "O my people I am free from all that you join as partners with Allah! I have turned my face towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah." Our Lord is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and everything. He has the power to make the stars rise and set. Ibrahim then heard Allah calling him: "O Ibrahim!" Ibrahim said trembling: "Here I am O my Lord!" "Submit to Me! Be a Muslim!" Ibrahim fell on the ground, prostrating and crying, he said: "I submit to the Lord of the universe!" Ibrahim kept prostrating until night came again. He got up and went back to his home, in t peace, full of conviction that Allah has guided him to the Truth.

Ibrahim invites his father to Islam
A new life started for Ibrahim. His mission now was to call his people to the Truth. He would start with his father who was the closest person to him, and whom he loved so much. He said to him in the softest and kindest voice: "O father! Why do you worship that which doesn't hear, doesn't see, and cannot avail you in anything? O father, I have got knowledge which you have not, so follow me. I will guide you to a straight path." His father replied angrily: "Do you reject my gods, O Ibrahim? If you don't stop I will stone you. Get away from me before I punish you." Ibrahim said: "Peace be on you! I will ask forgiveness of my Lord for you."

Ibrahim confronts his people and rejects their idols
He left his father after he lost hope to convert him to the right path, and directed his efforts towards the people of the town, but they rejected his call and threatened him. By Allah, he said, I shall plot a plan to destroy their idols. He knew that a big celebration was coming soon, where everybody would leave town for a big feast on the riverbank. After making sure that nobody was left in town, Ibrahim went towards the temple armed with an ax. Statues of all shapes and sizes were sitting there adorned with decorations. Plates of food were offered to them, but the food was untouched. "Well, why don't you eat? The food is getting cold." He said to the statues, joking; then with his ax he destroyed all the statues except one, the biggest of them. He hung the ax around its neck and left.
How big was the shock when the people entered the temple! They gathered inside watching in awe their gods broken in pieces. They wondered who might have done this? Then they all remembered that the young Ibrahim was talking evil of their idols. They brought him to the temple and asked him: "Are you the one who has done this to our gods?" Ibrahim said: "No, this statue, the biggest of them has done it. Ask them if they can speak." "You know well that these idols don't speak!" They said impatiently. "Then how come you worship things that can neither speak nor see, nor even fend for themselves? Have you lost your minds?"
They kept silent for a while, for he got a point there. Their minds and their senses were telling them that the Truth is with Ibrahim, but their pride prevented them to accept it, and reject the idols they were worshipping for generations. This they thought would be total defeat. They started yelling at him and shouting: "Burn him! Burn him! Take revenge for your gods !"

The Miracle: Allah saves Ibrahim from the fire.
The decision to burn Ibrahim to death was affirmed by the priests and the king of Babylon, Nimrod. The news spread like a fire in the kingdom, and people were coming from all places to watch the execution. A huge pit was dug up and a large quantity of wood was piled up. Then the biggest fire people ever witnessed was lit. The fire flames were so high up in the sky that the birds could not fly over it for fear of being burned ! Ibrahim's hands and feet were chained, and he was put in a catapult to throw him into the fire. At that time, Angel Jibreel came to him and said: "O Ibrahim! Is there anything you wish for?" Ibrahim could have asked to be saved from the fire, to be taken away, but no, he said: "I only wish that Allah be pleased with me." The catapult was released, and Ibrahim was thrown in the heart of the fire. But Allah would not allow His Prophet to be killed, He ordered the fire: "O fire! Be coolness and safety for Ibrahim!" And the miracle happened. The fire obeyed and burned only his chains. Ibrahim came out from it as if he was coming out from a garden, peaceful, his face illuminated, and not a trace of smoke on his clothes. People watched in shock and said: "Amazing ! Ibrahim' s God has saved him from the fire!"

Ibrahim debates the Babylonian king, Nimrod
Ibrahim's notoriety grew bigger after this event and the king of Babylon felt that his throne was in danger, and that he was loosing power, because he was pretending that he was a god. He sent for Ibrahim. He wanted to debate with him and show his people that he, the king is indeed the god, and Ibrahim was a liar. He asked Ibrahim: What can your god do that I cannot?
-My Lord is He Who gives life and death." Ibrahim said
-I give life and death. I can bring a person from the street and have him executed, and I can grant my pardon to a person who was sentenced to death and save his life." The king said proudly
-Well my Lord Allah makes the sun rise from the East. Can you make it rise from the West?
The king was confounded. He was beaten at his own game, on his own territory, in front of his own people! Ibrahim left him there speechless and went back to his important mission, calling people to worship the one and only God, Allah.

Allah blesses Ibrahim with a son to become a prophet
Only a woman named Sarah and a man named Lot believed in Allah, and followed Ibrahim. He realized that nobody else would listen to him, and decided to emigrate for the cause of Allah, and to spread His Message elsewhere. Before leaving, he tried once again to convert his father to Islam, but to no avail. Ibrahim said to his father and his people: "We are free of you and of whatever you worship besides Allah. We have rejected you and there has arisen between us and you enmity and hatred forever unless you believe in Allah and Him alone."
Ibrahim, Lot and Sarah started their long travel. They crossed Babylon, went through Syria and Palestine calling people to Allah, helping the poor and doing good deeds. By that time Ibrahim married Sarah. Their hope was to have children who would spread the Message of Allah after their death. As for Lot, he emigrated to the land of Sodom and settled there.
Time went by and no children were born to Sarah. She realized she was sterile. She accepted her fate and submitted to the will of Allah. Ibrahim and Sarah moved to Egypt where the king gave Sarah a woman to be her servant. The woman's name was Hajar. Sarah was seeing Ibrahim' s hair getting white, and it grieved her to see his chance of having any child slipping away. She offered Hajar her servant as a wife to her husband, and prayed Allah to bless Hajar and Ibrahim with a child. And so came Ismail, a baby boy born to Hajar. How unselfish Sarah was! For her, the need to have an offspring who would carry the Message after Ibrahim was greater than her pride. Fourteen years later Allah rewarded Sarah with a son, Ishaq in spite of her old age.

Young Ismail and his mother alone in the desert of Makkah
Ibrahim woke up one day and asked Hajar to prepare herself and baby Ismail for a long travel. Ibrahim and Hajar kept walking, crossed a fertile land followed by barren mountains till they arrived at the Arabian desert. Ibrahim brought Hajar to a high hill called al-Marwa, made her and her baby sit under a tree, placed a bag of dates and some water near her, and set out homeward. Hajar ran after him and said: "Are you going to leave us in this desert where there is no one to keep us company?" She repeated this many times but he would not look back at her. She asked: "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said yes. "Then He will not neglect us." She said. Ibrahim walked away until he got out of their sight, he raised his hands and prayed Allah: "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring dwell in a valley with no cultivation, by Your Sacred House, in order that they may offer prayers. So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and provide them with fruits, so that they may give thanks."

Zamzam
Hajar went on nursing Ismail and drinking from the water until it was all used up. She became very thirsty and the child was crying. She left him on the al-Marwa hill and hurried to the nearest hill, as-Safa. She stood there and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She descended from as-Safa, crossed the valley running and reached al-Marwa hill. She stood and started looking but could see nobody. She kept running between as-Safa and al-Marwa seven times. When she reached al-Marwa for the last time, she was exhausted, she sat next to the baby. Then she heard a voice. She stood up and said: "O whoever you might be! Have you got something to help me?' She saw an angel, Angel Jibreel, digging the earth until water flowed ! She built a little basin around it. She scooped water with her hands, drank, filled her water-skin, and nursed her baby. The place from which water flowed was Zamzam. Muslims till this day drink from the holy water of Zamzam, and during Hajj they walk between as-Safa and al-Marwa seven times to commemorate this event.
Some Arabs traveling through Makkah saw birds flying around alMarwa. "They must be flying around water." They said. When they arrived at the water, they found Hajar and asked her: "Would you allow us to stay with you, and use the water from your well?" She agreed and was pleased by their company. The people sent for their families, settled there and became permanent residents. The whole valley became alive. Ismail grew up, learned Arabic, and later married a woman from amongst the Arabs.
Meanwhile, Ibrahim who had not seen his son since he was a baby, came back to Makkah to visit him. Upon arriving, he heard that Hajar had died, but Ismail was still living there. Ibrahim was yearning to see his son whom he loved and missed a lot. He saw Ismail under a tree near Zamzam, sharpening his arrows. When he saw his father, Ismail rose up, hugged him and greeted him. It was the happiest moment for both father and son. But Allah wanted to put them to test, and it was a tough test indeed. During one night, Ibrahim had a dream. He came to Ismail and said: "O my son ! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you as a sacrifice to Allah, so what do you think?" They both realized that this was an order from Allah. Ismail said without hesitation: "Do what you are commanded, you shall find me very patient insha Allah." They had both submitted to the will of Allah. Ibrahim laid his son prostrate, put his forehead on the ground and directed a sharp knife towards his neck. At this very moment, Allah called him: "O Ibrahim! You have fulfilled the dream! Thus do We reward the good doers !" A big sheep was sent down from heaven to be slaughtered instead of Ismail, which Ibrahim did, and they both had a big celebration that day. This event is celebrated every year by all Muslims. It is Eid al-Adha where we slaughter the sacrificial sheep.
Ibrahim and Ismail kept on calling people to worship Allah. At that time there was no place built for the worship of Allah. Ibrahim wished there could be such a place where people would be in peace, and concentrate solely for the worship of Allah. His wish was answered when Allah ordered him to build the Sacred House, the Ka'bah. Ibrahim said to Ismail: "O Ismail, Allah has given me an order, will you help me execute it?" "Yes I will." Ismail said. "Allah has ordered me to build a house here." He said, pointing to a hillock higher than the land surrounding it. They went towards the place and started building the foundations of the Ka'bah Ismail brought the stones and Ibrahim built the walls, and when the walls became high, Ismail brought a large stone and put it in front of his father who stood over it and carried on building, while Ismail was handing him the stones. Both of them went on building and going around the Ka'bah, saying: "O our Lord accept this service from us." When they finished the building, Angel Jibreel descended from heaven and showed Ibrahim the rituals of Hajj. Then Ibrahim stepped on the stone and called on people: "O people obey your Lord." This large stone which Ibrahim stepped on is still there to this day near the Ka'bah. It is called Makam Ibrahim.
Thus ends the story of Ibrahim, the father of the prophets. From him descended all the prophets who came later, including Muhammad, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam. Ibrahim devoted all his life calling others to the True religion: Islam. Alone he stood against his people, his father, and even the mighty king of Babylon, and never flinched. Yet his method was always to gradually persuade them by bringing irrefutable proofs, that most often embarrassed those who refused to accept the Truth, but as Allah said: "Any whom Allah leaves to stray, there is none to guide !"



http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ibrahim.htm
Reply

LauraS
04-27-2010, 10:29 PM
The Vale's Lilly, as interesting as I found that to read, I doesn't prove to me that Allah exists it's just another story from the past. Why didn't Allah speak to all the people in the village? :S I know Ibrahim called to Him but if he just said to them all, yes he's right stop worshipping idols then there would have been a lot less trouble.

I can see the similarities with the Bible once again, I find it interesting I wonder how the same religion managed to branch off in the past? People will accept these stories from the past, but if people claimed to have heard from God today, what would you think? No one would listen if someone claimed a different God of a different name had spoken to them claiming to be the true God and yet we can accept these stories from thousands of years ago when God has not revealed Himself since. If a Muslim killed or went to kill their child and said it was on the orders of Allah what would you think? Could you accept it or would you think they'd gone crazy? What would you do if you had a dream where you sacrificed your son?
Reply

جوري
04-27-2010, 10:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
The Vale's Lilly, as interesting as I found that to read, I doesn't prove to me that Allah exists it's just another story from the past. Why didn't Allah speak to all the people in the village? :S I know Ibrahim called to Him but if he just said to them all, yes he's right stop worshipping idols then there would have been a lot less trouble.
Laura S from the read you should have also gleaned that the article wasn't meant to make you believe that Allah swt exists rather that those who wish to find God can do so on their own accord and in spite of the majority.. that belief is solo journey what you do or don't do is for your own-self and not a communal effort-- I don't understand why you must hammer that point on every post only to receive the same response? .. in fact that should have been manifest early on so even if you didn't wish to bother with the rest of the story you'd have understood the gist from a couple of lines. Further, what is the point of life at all if God spoke to the people in the village? Do you find it acceptable that a teacher should hand out all the answers to the exams prior to starting the test?
and again I quote from the Quran:
هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِيَهُمُ اللّهُ فِي ظُلَلٍ مِّنَ الْغَمَامِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةُ وَقُضِيَ الأَمْرُ وَإِلَى اللّهِ تُرْجَعُ الأمُورُ {210}
[Pickthal 2:210] Wait they for naught else than that Allah should come unto them in the shadows of the clouds with the angels? Then the case would be already judged.

you must ponder your purpose here, if you think it is a random chance, then the deeper more philosophical questions aren't for you and your life and time would be best vested with like-minded individuals who share your way of life!
I can see the similarities with the Bible once again, I find it interesting I wonder how the same religion managed to branch off in the past? People will accept these stories from the past, but if people claimed to have heard from God today, what would you think? No one would listen if someone claimed a different God of a different name had spoken to them claiming to be the true God and yet we can accept these stories from thousands of years ago when God has not revealed Himself since. If a Muslim killed or went to kill their child and said it was on the orders of Allah what would you think? Could you accept it or would you think they'd gone crazy? What would you do if you had a dream where you sacrificed your son?
Laura S, I guess it is a question of which stories are more in concert with reality, logic that is satisfactory to both the heart and mind!
Abraham had many miracles revealed unto him and the sacrifice of his son was a mere continuum of events. More importantly he didn't actually sacrifice his son, as such I don't understand where you create the story that I'd find it acceptable if any random joe would feel it ok to sacrifice their kid because 'God told him so' if the very father of monotheism was spared such a horror and secondly not everyone is Abraham, again if you read the Quran you'd find such verses as this:

وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِـي الْمَوْتَى قَالَ أَوَلَمْ تُؤْمِن قَالَ بَلَى وَلَـكِن لِّيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي قَالَ فَخُذْ أَرْبَعَةً مِّنَ الطَّيْرِ فَصُرْهُنَّ إِلَيْكَ ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَى كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِّنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ {260}
[Pickthal 2:260] And when Abraham said (unto his Lord): My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said: Dost thou not believe? Abraham said: Yea, but (I ask) in order that my heart may be at ease. (His Lord) said: Take four of the birds and cause them to incline unto thee, then place a part of them on each hill, then call them, they will come to thee in haste, and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.


clearly should show you that even messengers had their doubts and their doubts allayed. He didn't simply have a dream one night and then up with his son to have his head chopped.

Everything in life, has order, context, and sequence. Try to visualize a situation in such a fashion before asking non-questions!

all the best
Reply

LauraS
04-29-2010, 06:07 PM
I do keep hammering that point because I have received no real response from anybody. It doesn't make sense that God wouldn't reveal Himself when he apparently created men specifically to worship Him. He can't just expect people to know He's there when He doesn't do anything about it? It's a bit different from a teacher not giving the exam answers, the penalty is eternity in Hell...if He really wnated everyone to believe in Him then it would be a happier world if He revealed Himself because everyone would have faith and there would probably be a good deal less war. When was the last time God performed a miracle? You don't answer why nothing like that happens today only back in a time where humans were unadvanced and gullible, maybe not sacrificing a son then but would you believe anyone that claimed to be a new messenger from God?

I do think about the reason why we're all here, you criticise me, but I'm not the one saying God created us and that's the end of it. I'm the one asking the questions you think you've found your answer and that there's no need to ask anymore.

So God wasn't created by anything and just existed? How is that possible and what did He do with His time before he created the universe and there was just nothing? Heck, this goes for the Big Bang theory too, where did the dust particles just suddenly come from, nothing can just suddenly appear, including a big black space...it really starts to boggle your mind after a while lol.
Reply

جوري
04-29-2010, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
I do keep hammering that point because I have received no real response from anybody. It doesn't make sense that God wouldn't reveal Himself when he apparently created men specifically to worship Him. He can't just expect people to know He's there when He doesn't do anything about it? It's a bit different from a teacher not giving the exam answers, the penalty is eternity in Hell...if He really wnated everyone to believe in Him then it would be a happier world if He revealed Himself because everyone would have faith and there would probably be a good deal less war. When was the last time God performed a miracle? You don't answer why nothing like that happens today only back in a time where humans were unadvanced and gullible, maybe not sacrificing a son then but would you believe anyone that claimed to be a new messenger from God?
There is a difference between your satisfaction with the response given vs. 'no real response given' in fact an answer has been given, you have no desire to accept it, and as such it makes that your problem not ours..I think you have more than ample evidence to the existence of God which you refuse to accept and refuse to offer a credible alternative as to how it all came to be-- who can honestly be faulted for that but you? failure on exams can also alter your life dramatically, your livelihood and quality of life -- if you find yourself in a situation where you are surprised with a quiz and feel it unfair that the teacher tested you without a warning, you can only blame yourself for not taking the free time to study and prepare in lieu of blaming someone else for your miserable failure, and by the same token you can't expect that answers will be handed you in advance, surely the mere fact that you are signed up for a class should clue you in as to purpose. Not much different from life..
further there is the whole concept of free will-- you can do with your life as you please, but you can't blame anyone but yourself for how you'd spent it!
I do think about the reason why we're all here, you criticise me, but I'm not the one saying God created us and that's the end of it. I'm the one asking the questions you think you've found your answer and that there's no need to ask anymore.
I am annoyed with you (just like on the other thread which for some reason I can't reply to) because you argue on a matter out of ignorance and don't like the responses given as if they need to be catered to you. The least you can do is simply read the Quran before you argue against it? How do you know if dinosaurs are mentioned or not if all you have to go by is some hearsay of an alternate man-made and man tampered with book? If you need to be taken by the hand through the entire process the least you can do is start with the basics and work your way up?
So God wasn't created by anything and just existed? How is that possible and what did He do with His time before he created the universe and there was just nothing? Heck, this goes for the Big Bang theory too, where did the dust particles just suddenly come from, nothing can just suddenly appear, including a big black space...it really starts to boggle your mind after a while lol.
You can't be a part of the creation and a creator at the same time.. you can't calculate the parameters of a circle using square mathematics.. so I wish you'd quit trying to apply laws of physics of our immediate world to the one who created it.. at the end of the day there will be a question of origin, if you believe everything has always existed then you must prove it and if you can't, then you must concede that your explanation is as much a belief as everyone else' and not particularly convincing or even mildly amusing to read for it echoes the philosophy of puerile children who have no abstract thoughts.. and that is in fact what makes arguing with most atheists a waste of time for many people.

I have started my posts all along telling you, that your search for God is a solo one, should you truly and sincerely seek you'll find, the questions on particulars will come later, there is no point to discuss how le place's law maybe applied to the alveoli of the lung when you don't believe in physics.. as by the same token there is no point to discuss the particulars of any religion when you don't believe in God!

all the best
Reply

tango92
04-29-2010, 08:18 PM
it is illogical for god to give people a test they cant pass. the test should be fair. what we are saying is actually the first test is to Believe in God. everyone has the capacity to understand gods signs and believe, it is simply up to a person wether they choose to ignore them or not. God knows what trials we can bear and what we cant, and he knows we can believe in him without seeing him because he gave us a brain to think.

the signs of God are plenty in the universe all around us, this is what makes the test fair and equal on all people. you wouldnt wake up one day to find an extremely complex object with a highly complex mechanism working in perfect order and expect it just bashed itself into existence. this alone is proof that there is some intelligent being behind the universe. now sincerely look around you and ask yourself was everything created in vain? it seem imposible there is no purpose of creation. now you must realise there is actually no way you could know what your purpose is unless this intelligent being told you.

you have two options:
1 hope some miracle reaches you, without you bothering to look for signs of god
2. make a start looking for miracles of god

if your sincere youll pick option 2. the first place to start looking is in religion. look at all the scriptures no problem. but believe me they all (except quran) contain errors or contradictions etc. a good place to start looking at miracles of the quran are, scientific miracles, preservation of the quran and inimitability. judge the evidence first hand, dont go presuming its all made up.

this is what makes islam unique, proof of islam is waiting for you whilst all other religions require faith. for me it is not really a question of having faith because ive reflected for a long time on each point i mentioned above, extremely critically and I find it impossible to believe islam is not the truth now.

good luck its up to you now. ill give you one last peice of advice, when mathematicians look for proofs of new theorems they dont reject all proofs because one is wrong. neither do they reject a proof without fully understanding it, nor do they presume it cant be true because they dont understand it at first. there ive spoon fed you. i hope you wont read the first line and presume im just another fool.
Reply

aadil77
04-29-2010, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
I do keep hammering that point because I have received no real response from anybody. It doesn't make sense that God wouldn't reveal Himself when he apparently created men specifically to worship Him.
Lol let me explain this laura, if you learn about the qualities of god, His vastness, His power, His might etc, If god ever revealed Himself to you, you would be sh*t scared to ever sin again, everyone would be perfect and everyone would believe in islam. This is part of the whole test having faith that god does exist, it wouldn't be much of a test if the answers just popped right in front of you. Allah has specifically balanced everything in this test, not too many signs, miracles etc occur to make it obvious that islam is the right way, but not too few to not have anything to reflect on and recieve guidence from.
Reply

LauraS
04-30-2010, 11:36 AM
Who's to say I haven't tried to find God? To be honest whenever I really think about it the thought of God existing doesn't scare me because if He does exist I see God as described in the Bible as a father to us. I sort of have my own vision of God in my head. What if I do find God but He's not the same as yours? For example there's Jesus and whenever I think about Jesus I do feel something, more than with God. I also believe in spirits and that maybe we do have spirit guides, I have a very interesting book about things like that.

I don't believe the dinosaurs are mentioned in creation stories. I read the Islamic creation story. "Simply read the Quran" :p a big more of a task than that makes it sound lol, but I intend to do more research. Like I said, how do you explain that obvious evidence that creatures have evolved over time? Some from the dinosaurs themselves, they didn't just appear they way they are today. Can you really blame people for finding evolution more believable than a God saying "be" and things were? :S

tango92- You expect people to respect your beliefs but yet you deride other religious books saying they all contain contradictions and mistakes except the Quran, I don't think you can say that when you weren't there at the time these "miracles" took place. It's quite a claim to make to be honest.
Reply

Pygoscelis
04-30-2010, 01:17 PM
Indeed. The way I see it, I doubt there is a God but if on the off chance there is one, then I figure I'm quite ok since I already strive to be good to my fellow humans and the world at large. And I would only respect a God that judges me on that. I'd have no respect for a God that instead judges me based on how prone I am to accept stories about who he is and what he wants on faith. And I'd have to wonder about a God who makes the judgment of his own creation such a big deal to begin with.
Reply

aadil77
04-30-2010, 01:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Indeed. The way I see it, I doubt there is a God but if on the off chance there is one, then I figure I'm quite ok since I already strive to be good to my fellow humans and the world at large. And I would only respect a God that judges me on that. I'd have no respect for a God that instead judges me based on how prone I am to accept stories about who he is and what he wants on faith. And I'd have to wonder about a God who makes the judgment of his own creation such a big deal to begin with.
Well god will judge you on everything, showing respect and kindness to fellow human beings is crucial in islam if you want to enter heaven. Islam would not have spread by bad conduct to others. But again this is not all that is required by Allah.

(1) It is arrested on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed: one amongst you believes (truly) till one likes for his brother or for his neighbour that which he loves for himself. (Book #001, Hadith #0072)


(2) It is narrated on the authority of Anas that the Prophet (may peace blessings be upon him) observed: By Him in whose Hand is my life, no, bondsman (truly) believes till he likes for his neighbour, or he (the Holy Prophet) said: for his brother, whatever he likes for himself. (Book #001, Hadith #0073)


(3) It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessing be upon him) observed: He will not enter Paradise whose neighbour is not secure from his wrongful conduct. (Book #001, Hadith #0074)


(4) It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: He who believes in Allah and the Last Day should either utter good words or better keep silence; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day should treat his neighbour with kindness and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day should show hospitality to his guest. (Book #001, Hadith #0075)
Reply

جوري
04-30-2010, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Who's to say I haven't tried to find God? To be honest whenever I really think about it the thought of God existing doesn't scare me because if He does exist I see God as described in the Bible as a father to us. I sort of have my own vision of God in my head. What if I do find God but He's not the same as yours? For example there's Jesus and whenever I think about Jesus I do feel something, more than with God. I also believe in spirits and that maybe we do have spirit guides, I have a very interesting book about things like that.
Good for you!
I don't believe the dinosaurs are mentioned in creation stories. I read the Islamic creation story. "Simply read the Quran" :p a big more of a task than that makes it sound lol, but I intend to do more research. Like I said, how do you explain that obvious evidence that creatures have evolved over time? Some from the dinosaurs themselves, they didn't just appear they way they are today. Can you really blame people for finding evolution more believable than a God saying "be" and things were? :S
well perhaps if you read it you'll find plenty of answers!

all the best
Reply

revert2007
04-30-2010, 04:21 PM
Assalamualikum.I have a question which has been bothering me for some time.If a Muslim shouldn't take a Non Muslim as friends,then how can a Muslim man Marry a non Muslim woman among People of the Book?

As we know that people of the book refered during the prophet's time and the people of the book refered to today's time is totally different.People of the book during the prophet's time believed in Allah and followed their respective prophets.But people of book in today 's time are kaffir which means they reject Allah.

So if quran said a Muslim man can marry a woman from people of the book,do you think it is applied on people of the book who rejected Allah?
Reply

aadil77
04-30-2010, 05:25 PM
I don't know, personally I think its haraam to marry a kaffir but others have differnt views
Reply

cat eyes
04-30-2010, 05:46 PM
scholars have different views about whether a muslim man should marry non muslim because the bible and other scriptures are corrupted so christcians believe that jesus pbuh is god so why would Allah swt want a muslim to marry woman like that who associates partners with him?. kids are more inclined to be influenced by the mother and what happens if she dont revert? husband leaves they get divorced, everything gets messed up kids grow up to hate religion and believe that religion causes devision. people say you have to marry to give dawah. this is not true and is false. dawah dose not have to be successful to be married to the person.. in my view a person has more chance of reverting outside marriage, all the person has to is get involved in islamic community where she/he can make friends.
Reply

tango92
04-30-2010, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
tango92- You expect people to respect your beliefs but yet you deride other religious books saying they all contain contradictions and mistakes except the Quran, I don't think you can say that when you weren't there at the time these "miracles" took place. It's quite a claim to make to be honest.
and your in a position to judge evidence about evolution being a scientist right? you have done no real research into quran or you would know im talking truth, the miracles in quran are present today in the forms of its verses that is what im getting across, just read it (and especially in todays time research the qurans scientific miracles, big bang theory, embryology all these have been spoken about by a man who couldnt read nor write). and im not insulting other books, im merely stating facts even bible scholars agree the bible contains contradictions, yet no contradictions have been found for quran.

well thats my last post in this thread probably, theres nothing more i can say except quit making your own presumptions about everything and look for evidence.
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-30-2010, 08:15 PM
@revert2007: The verses in Quran which allow a Muslim to marry people of the book are certainly in regards to those People of the Book who followed the original message in their books (Monotheism). Do you think Quran would allow us (Muslim men) to marry pagan trinitarian women who say that Jesus is Allah and that Allah died on the cross in the form of Jesus and so on and so forth? Isnt that contradiction to Quran's message? Can Quran tolerate cohabiting of a Muslim male with such a pagan? Can a lover of Allah and believer in His Oneness and His attributes make someone his wife who rejects all that he believes in and actually insults what he believes in?

I have 0.0000005% knowledge of Islam but even I could see the contradictory nature of marriage of a Mumin with a Pagan.

Boaz, I hope this post also answers the question you had for me.
Reply

KAding
05-01-2010, 06:42 PM
Whether you do or do not befriend someone should IMHO depend entirely on a character judgment of that individual. Rejecting people as friends solely and beforehand on the basis of their religion is pure and simple prejudice and bigotry. In practice, however, orthodox Muslims will probably have fewer non-Muslim friends, simply because their lifestyles are less likely to match with non-Muslims, and vise versa. But rejecting them all out of some kind of precautionary principle is simply wrong.
Reply

revert2007
05-02-2010, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
@revert2007: The verses in Quran which allow a Muslim to marry people of the book are certainly in regards to those People of the Book who followed the original message in their books (Monotheism). Do you think Quran would allow us (Muslim men) to marry pagan trinitarian women who say that Jesus is Allah and that Allah died on the cross in the form of Jesus and so on and so forth? Isnt that contradiction to Quran's message? Can Quran tolerate cohabiting of a Muslim male with such a pagan? Can a lover of Allah and believer in His Oneness and His attributes make someone his wife who rejects all that he believes in and actually insults what he believes in?

I have 0.0000005% knowledge of Islam but even I could see the contradictory nature of marriage of a Mumin with a Pagan.

Boaz, I hope this post also answers the question you had for me.
Of course I know that even if I am a revert I can see how beautifully Quran describes everything.
Yet again I know many people who married People of The BOOk who rejected Allah and those Muslim guys are in the group who do not pray.I don't know these men but I know those women because they are my friends and even i read in many forums of such marriages.

So how can an Imam allow such marriages in the fist place or even why scholors do not discuss this issue seriously?

The number of Muslim men marying people of the book is increasing these days.

I personally believe that a true religious man wouldn't do that.Allah knows the best.
Reply

S<Chowdhury
05-02-2010, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by revert2007
Yet again I know many people who married People of The BOOk who rejected Allah and those Muslim guys are in the group who do not pray.I don't know these men but I know those women because they are my friends and even i read in many forums of such marriages.

.
So your basing your idea against brother's marrying people of the book because of a few bad eggs ?
Reply

Pomak
05-03-2010, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Who's to say I haven't tried to find God? To be honest whenever I really think about it the thought of God existing doesn't scare me because if He does exist I see God as described in the Bible as a father to us. I sort of have my own vision of God in my head. What if I do find God but He's not the same as yours? For example there's Jesus and whenever I think about Jesus I do feel something, more than with God. I also believe in spirits and that maybe we do have spirit guides, I have a very interesting book about things like that.

I don't believe the dinosaurs are mentioned in creation stories. I read the Islamic creation story. "Simply read the Quran" :p a big more of a task than that makes it sound lol, but I intend to do more research. Like I said, how do you explain that obvious evidence that creatures have evolved over time? Some from the dinosaurs themselves, they didn't just appear they way they are today. Can you really blame people for finding evolution more believable than a God saying "be" and things were? :S

tango92- You expect people to respect your beliefs but yet you deride other religious books saying they all contain contradictions and mistakes except the Quran, I don't think you can say that when you weren't there at the time these "miracles" took place. It's quite a claim to make to be honest.
So you limit God to "be and it is"?

I on the other hand do not limit him in such a way.

format_quote Originally Posted by revert2007
Assalamualikum.I have a question which has been bothering me for some time.If a Muslim shouldn't take a Non Muslim as friends,then how can a Muslim man Marry a non Muslim woman among People of the Book?

As we know that people of the book refered during the prophet's time and the people of the book refered to today's time is totally different.People of the book during the prophet's time believed in Allah and followed their respective prophets.But people of book in today 's time are kaffir which means they reject Allah.

So if quran said a Muslim man can marry a woman from people of the book,do you think it is applied on people of the book who rejected Allah?
We can take them as friends, we do not take them as allies.

And the Christians at the time of Muhammad saws were trinitarian so the argument about religious difference between then and now is bogus. And both were considered kaafir(non Muslim) in the legal sense.

And lastly people of the book= Christians and Jews that believe in god(aka not atheists)

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
I don't know, personally I think its haraam to marry a kaffir but others have differnt views
I hope you meant that in the non Muslim majority environment its disliked or worse rather than a general rule.
Reply

aadil77
05-03-2010, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pomak
I hope you meant that in the non Muslim majority environment its disliked or worse rather than a general rule.
no this is my own personal opinion, throughout the quran we are told of the torment for those who are idolaters and those who associate partners with Allah, what I believe is that Allah lets us marry of the True ahlul kitaab - people of book who weren't disbeleivers. An example of a person from the true ahlul kitaab is the christian monk bahira who recognised Rasulullahs prophethood

so at the time there must have been ahlul kitab around, not sure about now
Reply

marwen
05-16-2010, 12:26 AM
I found this vid of sheikh Yusuf Estes, he talks about this topic :
How does Islam say to deal with Non-Muslims?
Reply

muslimfirst
05-22-2010, 01:12 PM

Reply

muslimfirst
05-22-2010, 01:13 PM

Reply

ardianto
05-22-2010, 01:46 PM
Auliya is not "friends".
In Indonesian official Al-Qur'an translation, Auliya is translated as "pemimpin" (leader, ruler).

For your information, Indonesian Ulama never forbid Muslims make a friendship with non-Muslims, as long as Muslims do not follow their faiths.
Reply

Brenzy
05-25-2010, 07:35 AM
I have been brought up an Atheist for most of my life, however one of my best friends is a Muslim. Some of the nicest people I have ever met are Muslims.
Reply

shuraimfan4lyf
05-25-2010, 08:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Auliya is not "friends".
In Indonesian official Al-Qur'an translation, Auliya is translated as "pemimpin" (leader, ruler).

For your information, Indonesian Ulama never forbid Muslims make a friendship with non-Muslims, as long as Muslims do not follow their faiths.
Salaamu Alaykum Wa rahmatullahi Wa barakatuh. Brother the word "Awliya" can have many different meanings. Here is something I like to share regarding taking Kafir as friends.

Praise be to Allaah.

Yes, examples will certainly explain and clarify what is meant, so we will move straight on to quoting some of the most important points that the scholars and leaders of da’wah have said about different ways of showing friendship towards kaafirs.

Accepting their kufr and doubting that it is kufr at all, or refraining from labelling them as kaafirs, or praising their religion. Allaah says about the kufr of the one who accepts them (interpretation of the meaning): “… but such as open their breasts to disbelief…” [al-Nahl 16:106]. Allaah says, making it obligatory to label the kaafirs as such (interpretation of the meaning): “… Whoever disbelieves in Taaghoot [false deities] and believes in Allaah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break…” [al-Baqarah 2:256]. Allaah says about the munaafiqoon (hypocrites) who prefer the kuffaar to the Muslims (interpretation of the meaning) “… [they] say to the disbelievers that they are better guided as regards the way than the believers (Muslims).” [al-Nisa’ 4:51].
Referring to them for judgement. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… they wish to got for judgement (in their disputes) to the Taaghoot (false judges, etc.) while they have been ordered to reject them…” [al-Nisa’ 4:60]

Befriending and liking them. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “You will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger…” [al-Mujaadilah 58:22]

Inclining towards them, relying upon them and taking them as a support. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And incline not towards those who do wrong, lest the Fire should touch you…” [Hood 11:113]

Helping and supporting them against the Muslims. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “The believers, men and women, are awliya’ (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) of one another…” [al-Tawbah 9:71]. He also says of the kuffaar that they are “ but awliya’ (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) to one another…” [al-Maa’idah 5:51]. And He says (interpretation of the meaning): “…And if any amongst you takes them as awliya’, then surely he is one of them.” [al-Maa’idah 5:51].

Becoming members of their societies, joining their parties, increasing their numbers, taking their nationalities (except in cases of necessity), serving in their armies or helping to develop their weapons.

Bringing their laws and rules to the Muslim countries. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Do they then seek the judgement of the Days of Ignorance?…” [al-Maa’idah 5:50]

Taking them as friends in general terms, taking them as helpers and supporters, and throwing in one’s lot with them. Allaah forbids all this, as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as awliya’ (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but awliya’ to one another…” [al-Maa’idah 5:51].

Compromising with them and being nice to them at the expense of one’s religion. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “They wish that you should compromise (in religion out of courtesy) with them, so that they (too) would compromise with you.” [al-Qalam 68:9]. This includes sitting with them and entering upon them at the time when they are making fun of the Signs of Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And it has already been revealed to you in the Book that when you hear the Verses of Allaah being denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that; (but if you stayed with them), certainly in that case you would be like them…” [al-Nisa’ 4:140]

Trusting them and taking them as advisors and consultants instead of the believers. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made clear to you the aayaat (proofs, evidence, verses), if you understand. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e., you believe in the Tawraat and the Injeel, while they disbelieve in your Book (the Qur’aan)]. And when they meet you, they say, ‘We believe.’ But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: ‘Perish in your rage. Certainly Allaah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets).’ If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it…” [Aal ‘Imran 3:118-120].

Imaam Ahmad and Muslim reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out to (the battle of) Badr, and a man from among the mushrikeen followed him and caught up with him at al-Harrah. He said, “I wanted to follow you and join you, and have some of the war-booty with you.” (The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) said: “Do you believe in Allaah and His Messenger?” He said, “No.” He said, “Go back, I do not need help from a mushrik.”

From these texts it is clear that we are forbidden to appoint kaafirs to positions whereby they could find out the secrets of the Muslims and plot against them by trying to do all kinds of harm.

Putting them in administrative positions where they are bosses of Muslims and can humiliate them, run their affairs and prevent them from practising their religion. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… and never will Allaah grant to the disbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers.” [al-Nisa’ 4:141]. Imaam Ahmad reported that Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I said to ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him). ‘I have a Christian scribe.’ He said, ‘What is wrong with you, may Allaah strike you dead! Have you not heard the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning), “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as awliya’ (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but awliya’ to one another…” [al-Maa’idah 5:51]”? Why do you not employ a haneef [i.e., a Muslim]?’ I said, ‘O Ameer al-Mu’mineen, I benefit from his work and he keeps his religion to himself.’ He said, ‘I will never honour them when Allaah has humiliated them, and I will never bring them close to me when Allaah has expelled them from His mercy.’”

Similarly, we should not employ them in Muslim homes where they can see our private matters and they bring our children up as kaafirs. This is what is happening nowadays when kaafirs are brought to Muslim countries as workers, drivers, servants and nannies in Muslim homes and families.

Neither should we send our children to kaafir schools, missionary institutions and evil colleges and universities, or make them live with kaafir families.

Imitating the kaafirs in dress, appearance, speech, etc., because this indicates love of the person or people imitated. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever imitates a people is one of them.”

It is forbidden to imitate the kaafirs in customs, habits and matters of outward appearance and conduct that are characteristic of them. This includes shaving the beard, letting the moustache grow long, and speaking their languages, except when necessary, as well as matters of clothing, food and drink, etc.

Staying in their countries when there is no need to do so. Allaah forbade the weak and oppressed Muslims to stay among the kaafirs if they are able to migrate. He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily! As for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): ‘In what (condition) were you?’ They reply, ‘We were weak and oppressed on earth.’ They (angels) say: ‘Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?’ Such men will find their abode in Hell –what an evil destination! Except the weak ones among men, women and children, who cannot devise a plan, nor are the able to direct their way.” [al-Nisa’ 4:97-98].

Nobody will be excused for staying in a kaafir country except for those who are truly weak and oppressed and cannot migrate, or those who stay among them for a valid religious purpose such as da’wah and spreading Islam in their countries.

It is forbidden to live among them when there is no need to do so. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I disown the one who stays among the mushrikeen.”

Travelling to their countries for vacations and leisure purposes. But going there for a legitimate reason – such as medical treatment, trade, and learning specialized skills that cannot be obtained in any other way – is permitted in cases of need, and when the need has been fulfilled, it is obligatory to return to the Muslim world.

This permission is also given under the condition that the would-be traveller has sufficient knowledge to dispel his doubts, to control his physical desires, to demonstrate his religion, to be proud of being Muslim, to keep away from evil places, and to be aware and cautious of the plots of his enemies. It is also permissible, and even obligatory, to travel to their lands for the sake of da’wah and spreading Islam.

Praising them and their civilization and culture, defending them, and admiring their behaviour and skills, without taking note of their false ideology and corrupt religion. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And strain not your eyes in longing for the things We have given for enjoyment to various groups of them (disbelievers), the splendour of the life of this world that We may test them thereby. But the provision (good reward in the Hereafter) of your Lord is better and more lasting.” [Ta-Ha 20:131]. It is also forbidden to honour them, give them titles of respect, initiate greetings to them, give them the best seats in gatherings, and give way to them in the street. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not be the first to greet a Jew or a Christian (do not initiate the greeting), and if you meet one of them in the street, then push him to the narrowest part of the way.”

Forsaking the Islamic calendar and using their calendar, especially since it reflects their rituals and festivals, as is the case with the Gregorian (Western) calendar, which is connected to the supposed date of the birth of the Messiah (peace be upon him), which is an innovation that they have fabricated and that has nothing to do with the religion of ‘Eesa (Jesus). Using this calendar implies approval of their festivals and symbols.

In order to avoid all of that, when the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) established a calendar for the Muslims during the time of ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him), they ignored all the systems of the kuffaar and created a new calendar starting from the date of the Prophet’s Hijrah. This indicates that it is obligatory to differ from the kuffaar in this matter and others where it is the matter of distinct characteristics. And Allaah is the Source of Help.

Taking part in their holidays and festivals, helping them to celebrate them, congratulating them on these occasions or attending places where such celebrations are held. The phrase al-zoor [falsehood] in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning) “And those who do not witness falsehood…” [al-Furqaan 25:72] was interpreted as meaning the festivals of the kuffaar.

Using their names that have bad meanings. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) changed names whose meanings involved shirk, such as ‘Abd al-‘Uzza and ‘Abd al-Ka’bah.

Seeking forgiveness for them and asking Allaah for mercy for them. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allaah’s forgiveness for the mushrikeen, even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they died in s state of disbelief).” [al-Tawbah 9:113]

These examples should give a clear picture of what is meant by the prohibition of forming close friendships with the kaafirs. We ask Allaah to keep our belief sound and our faith strong. And Allaah is the Source of Help.
Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
Reply

ardianto
05-25-2010, 03:08 PM
Asalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

Brother shuraimfan4lyf, although awliyaa is plural of Wali (guardian), this word has many different meanings such as leaders, saints, etc. But awliyaa is not friends because Arabic word for friend is sahib (or sahaba in plural).

If i know someone personally and this someone knows me personally, and we make interaction, it's means this someone is my friend. Our schoolmates are our friends, other employees in our office are our friends. If we say Muslims are not allowed to take Jews and Christians as friends, this is means Muslims are not allowed to interact them.

From my knowledge, this prohibition is only for take them as awliyaa, but not for take them as friends. Please notice texts in surah Al-Maidah ayaah 51. The word that used in that ayaah is awliyaa, not sahaba.
Reply

CosmicPathos
05-27-2010, 08:39 PM
Awliya also means friends. What does Wali Allah mean? Guardian of Allah? It means friend of Allah.
Reply

ardianto
05-28-2010, 04:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Awliya also means friends. What does Wali Allah mean? Guardian of Allah? It means friend of Allah.
Awliya is not friends.

I give you and example from Indonesian language.
"Haji Mahmud adalah seorang Wali Allah yang punya banyak sahabat".
(Hajj Mahmood is Wali Allah who has many friends).

In Indonesia we differ Wali/Awliya and Sahib/Sahaba, because Awliya (in Arabic) is not Friends.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!