No dancing in public: Dubai

[islamirama]

No dancing in public: Dubai

3-15-2009

DUBAI: Playing loud music, dancing, nudity, kissing and even holding hands in public is considered inappropriate behavior under new guidelines laid down by the authorities of Dubai, a report said yesterday.

The Arabic-language daily Al-Emarat Al-Youm said the Dubai Executive Council has urged residents of Dubai, where foreigners make up more than 80 percent of the population, to respect the customs of the country and avoid inappropriate behavior.

The rules, which apply to all public places, include a ban on all forms of nudity, playing music loudly and dancing, exchange of kisses between men and women — and even on unmarried couples holding hands.

Any breach of the guidelines, by nationals or expatriates, carries a possible prison penalty, the paper said.

The guidelines also stipulate that anyone caught under the influence of alcohol — even small amounts — outside designated drinking areas is liable to being fined or imprisoned, the paper added.

Dubai, a member of the seven-emirate United Arab Emirates, has a diverse culture as it is home to a huge foreign population.

Unlike most of its neighbors, the emirate tolerates a relatively relaxed dress code and hosts dozens of hotels that have bars and clubs.

However, a series of incidents, including crackdowns on cross dressers and the expulsion of two British expatriates found guilty of having sex on the beach, has thrown into the limelight the sometimes clashing local and foreign cultures.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=24&section=0&article=120284&d=15&m=3&y=2009

[Cabdullahi]

How about close bars and nightclubs?

[islamirama]

Young and Arab in Land of Mosques and Bars


DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — In his old life in Cairo, Rami Galal knew his place and his fate: to become a maintenance man in a hotel, just like his father. But here, in glittering, manic Dubai, he is confronting the unsettling freedom to make his own choices.

Here Mr. Galal, 24, drinks beer almost every night and considers a young Russian prostitute his girlfriend. But he also makes it to work every morning, not something he could say when he lived back in Egypt. Everything is up to him, everything: what meals he eats, whether he goes to the mosque or a bar, who his friends are.

“I was more religious in Egypt,” Mr. Galal said, taking a drag from yet another of his ever-burning Marlboros. “It is moving too fast here. In Egypt there is more time, they have more control over you. It’s hard here. I hope to stop drinking beer; I know it’s wrong. In Egypt, people keep you in check. Here, no one keeps you in check.”

In Egypt, and across much of the Arab world, there is an Islamic revival being driven by young people, where faith and ritual are increasingly the cornerstone of identity. But that is not true amid the ethnic mix that is Dubai, where 80 percent of the people are expatriates, with 200 nationalities.

This economically vital, socially freewheeling yet unmistakably Muslim state has had a transforming effect on young men. Religion has become more of a personal choice and Islam less of a common bond than national identity.

Dubai is, in some ways, a vision of what the rest of the Arab world could become — if it offered comparable economic opportunity, insistence on following the law and tolerance for cultural diversity. In this environment, religion is not something young men turn to because it fills a void or because they are bowing to a collective demand. That, in turn, creates an atmosphere that is open not only to those inclined to a less observant way of life, but also to those who are more religious. In Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Algeria, a man with a long beard is often treated as an Islamist — and sometimes denied work. Not here in Dubai.

“Here, I can practice my religion in a natural and free way because it is a Muslim country and I can also achieve my ambition at work,” said Ahmed Kassab, 30, an electrical engineer from Zagazig Egypt, who wears a long dark beard and has a prayer mark on his forehead. “People here judge the person based on productivity more than what he looks like. It’s different in Egypt, of course.”

A Playground for All Sides

No one can say for sure why Dubai has been spared the kind of religion-fueled extremism that has plagued other countries in the region. There are not even metal detectors at hotel and mall entrances, standard fare from Morocco to Saudi Arabia. Some speculate that Dubai is like Vienna during the cold war, a playground for all sides. There is a robust state security system. But there is also a feeling that diversity, tolerance and opportunity help breed moderation.

“There is not going to be somebody who has a grudge against the system,” said Tarik Yousef, dean of the Dubai School of Government. “You might have a problem with something, but there’s enough to make you happy. You have a job — and the mosque is open 24 hours.”

Dubai dazzles, but it also confuses. It appears to offer a straight deal — work hard and make money. It is filled with inequities and exploitation. It is a land of rules: no smoking, no littering, no speeding, no drinking and driving. But it also dares everyone to defy limitations. There is the Burj Dubai, a glass tower that will be the tallest in the world. There is the Dubai Mall, which will be the biggest in the world. There are artificial islands shaped into a palm tree design (they said it couldn’t be done) and an indoor ski slope. There is talk of a new hotel, the biggest yet in Dubai, that will cool the hot sand for its guests. There is credit, and there are credit cards, for anyone with a job. There are no taxes.

“They should give you an introduction when you arrive,” said Hamza Abu Zanad, 28, who moved to Dubai from Jordan about 18 months ago and now works in real estate. “It is very disorienting. I felt lost. There are fancy cars, but don’t speed. You can have prostitutes, but don’t get caught with a woman. I was driving along the beach and there were flashes — I thought someone was taking my picture.”

The flashes turned out to be surveillance cameras. He was speeding. The next day the police called and told him to pay his fines, he said, still laughing at his initial innocence.

He had lived for years in Canada and graduated from college there. He spoke English, drank beer, dated women, lifted weights, lived a Western-style life, but felt culturally out of sync. “At Christmas I was lonely,” Mr. Abu Zanad said one day with a beer in one hand and the tube of a Turkish water pipe in the other. “Everyone is celebrating, but international students don’t know what’s going on.”

In this way, Dubai offers another prescription for promoting moderation. It offers a chance to lead a modern life in an Arab Islamic country. Mr. Abu Zanad raised his beer high, almost in a toast, and said he liked being able to walk through a mall and still hear the call to prayer.

“We like that it’s free and it still has Arab heritage,” he said “It’s not religion, it’s the culture, the Middle Eastern culture.”

“The Arabs have a future here,” said his best friend, Bilal Hamdan. “Where are we going to go back to? Egypt? Jordan? This is the future.”

Mr. Galal sees it as his future too, especially when he thinks of what would await him at home, where success is guaranteed only to those with connections and wealth.

One evening, as he set out for the night to meet Egyptian friends, he was noticeably agitated. It turned out he watched on television as Egypt’s upper house of Parliament, a historic building in the center of Cairo, burned for hours in a humiliating symbol of the state’s decay.

“Look how long it’s taking them to put out a fire in Parliament and they’re using the most primitive methods,” he finally said. “I feel like I’m watching a black and white movie. What would I go back and do?”

Mr. Galal grew up in Shubra, a busy, crowded neighborhood in Cairo, where the streets are packed with young men who are unemployed or underemployed. He comes from a traditional, observant household where family honor is linked to obeying social norms and respecting religious values.

Mr. Galal graduated from college with a degree in social work, but the only job available was as a maintenance man for about $100 a month. He felt as if he was treading water, and so at the urging of his family got engaged to a young woman from his neighborhood. He said that he thought the goal of marriage would give him a purpose, something to work toward.

About a year later, a friend working in Dubai recommended him for a job in construction, and he grabbed the chance. It was a difficult adjustment.

“I didn’t feel like anyone understood how I felt,” he said. He gained weight and got depressed.

He works at a construction company helping to assemble massive air-conditioning units, essential in the withering heat and humidity of Dubai. He reviews blueprints and decides which materials are needed.

His company gave him housing in a dormitory, a three-story, sand-colored building in Jebel Ali, a sprawling desert landscape of big-box warehouses and construction sites.

“When I first arrived it was not what I expected,” Mr. Galal said. “You hear about the Emirates, but all the people I worked with were Indian. I wanted to leave.”

Now his home, or rather, where he sleeps, is in Labor Camp No. 598,655. He shares a room the size of a walk-in closet with two other men on the first floor of the dormitory. The hundreds of men on his floor share a bathroom and a kitchen, where he will not eat because they serve only Indian food. There are about 20 Arab men out of 3,000 mostly Indian residents. Most of his meals are at mall food courts or in cheap restaurants serving Arabic cuisine.

“It’s not nice, it’s normal,” Mr. Galal said as he closed the flimsy door to his room, stepping over the piles of shoes and sandals in the hall. It was 5:30 p.m. and his roommates were fast asleep after a long hot day at the construction site.

A Change of Identity

In fact, the mix of nationalities has made Mr. Galal redefine himself — not predominantly as Muslim but as Egyptian. Asked if he feels more comfortable with a Pakistani who is Muslim or an Egyptian who is Christian, he replied automatically: “The Egyptian.”

His best friend, Ayman Ibrahim, 28, lives in the room next to Mr. Galal, also with two other men. Mr. Ibrahim is from Alexandria, Egypt, and has been in Dubai for more than two years. He works as a senior safety supervisor in another division of the company.

Mr. Ibrahim was waiting outside in a white Toyota Corolla provided by the company. His Egyptian fiancée’s picture dangled from his key chain in the ignition.

Dubai has been built along roadways, 6, 12, 14 lanes wide. There was no central urban planning and the result is a city of oases, each divided from the other by lanes of traffic. The physical distance between people is matched by the distance between nationalities. Dubai has everything money can buy, but it does not have a unifying culture or identity. The only common thread is ambition.

As Mr. Galal and Mr. Ibrahim headed to town, the traffic was ferocious, another downside of Dubai’s full-throttle development. It took two hours to get to Diera, the old part of the city. But the friends did not seem to mind inching along. Popular Egyptian love songs played from the stereo as the car crawled past the Marina, another exclamation point in a city full of them, with skyscrapers, a Buddha Bar and a marina, a real marina, for boats.

“This is not for us, the sheiks live here,” Mr. Galal said as the car passed the Marina. But there was no anger or envy in his voice, as there would be if he were in Egypt, where when he sees wealth he knows that it is beyond his reach. When Mr. Galal came to Dubai his salary was 2,000 dirhams a month, or about $550.

“I wish I can make 40,000 a month,” he said with a dreamy smile. “When I first came here I was hoping for 5,000, now I make 5 and I want 10, and I will start making 10 in a month. Salaries here increase.”

The young men made it to Diera, parked in a hotel lot and walked down the sidewalk, until the smell of scented tobacco was strong and sweet. They turned left at the Domino’s Pizza, up a flight of stairs and into Awtar, an Egyptian-style coffeehouse that served Turkish water pipes, called shisha in Egypt, and showed Egyptian soccer on television. The place was filled with Egyptian men who were smoking, and drinking sweet tea and coffee.

Mr. Galal put his cellphone on the table and lit a Marlboro, again. He described how he no longer felt at home anywhere. The diversity and opportunity in Dubai, he says, have made Egypt seem more unlivable than it was before. But he said the openness, the temptations of Dubai, also frightened him.

“The things I saw here, I can’t tell you,” he said “I can’t trust anyone here, I can’t.”

‘A New Way of Life’

The Rattlesnake Bar and Grill, where he and his friend often go after the coffeehouse, is cheap by Dubai standards, about an $18 cover charge. Inside there is a Wild West theme and a Filipino rock band blasting pop music and many single women lined up like merchandise by the front door. A sign by the bar promised “a new way of life.”

This is where Mr. Galal met Reem — though he said that was probably not her real name. On a Thursday night — the first night of the weekend — Rattlesnake was packed with single men and prostitutes. Mr. Galal seemed jealous when Reem was working the floor, talking to guys. His head was tipped, his shoulders hiked up, a bit like a nervous schoolboy. Reem wore skin-tight black tights, a black, low-cut top, and held a stern gaze as Mr. Galal leaned in and talked to her. They chatted a few minutes before Reem went off.

“Look, I’m not a muscle man and I’m not loaded, she must like me,” Mr. Galal said, sounding a touch unsure of himself.

“She’s here for business and I know she has to do this. She tries to make me understand. But I get attached.”

A week later, Mr. Galal was overloaded. “I am suffocating here,” he said as he walked into the coffeehouse. He moved up his vacation home to Cairo. He said that he needed to get back on track, to break from the drinking and the women, and reconnect with his values.

A few days later, Mr. Ibrahim drove him to the airport for the nearly four-hour flight home to spend the holy month of Ramadan with his family. In Dubai, Mr. Ibrahim said, “There’s work and life and money. There were days when I didn’t have a place to stay, no money, nothing. But I made it as opposed to Egypt where you start at zero and stay at zero.”

But if Dubai offers opportunity, it also poses risks.

For days after his return to Egypt, Mr. Galal could not get hold of Mr. Ibrahim on the telephone. He had been arrested, charged by the police with trying to steal tons of scrap metal from his construction site. Five days after he was taken in, Mr. Ibrahim was released, but the police kept his passport.

“I didn’t do it,” he said. “I am here two and a half years trying to make a life for myself and in two minutes my life is ruined.”

In Cairo, Mr. Galal reconnected with his family. He fasted for Ramadan, including giving up cigarettes during daylight hours. And he went out looking for his friends on the bustling streets of his neighborhood, which is the antithesis of Dubai. It is filled with people, men, women, children, all night long, shopping, chatting, smoking, enjoying the cool night air, the warmth of the neighborhood, and a common culture.

Mr. Galal cut and gelled his hair. He got a close shave and bought himself a thick silver link chain to wear around his neck. He looked as if he would fit right in. But he did not feel that way.

“My friends are all stuck at a certain limit, that’s as far as they can go,” Mr. Galal said after three weeks at home. “Nothing is new here. Nothing is happening. My friends feel like I changed. They say money changed me.”

Mr. Galal and a cousin went out for a night of fun the day before he was scheduled to return to Dubai. They sat on the sidewalk by the Nile where men were fishing. A woman rented them plastic lawn chairs and brought over sweet tea and a drink made from chickpeas. “I want to go back,” he said. “I was living better there. It’s the simple things, sitting at the coffee shop, talking to people, their mentality is different.”

He said he broke off his engagement. Marriage in Egypt is usually a practical matter, a necessary step to adulthood, to independence. It is often arranged.

A year in Dubai changed his view of marriage. “You are looking for someone to spend your whole future with,” Mr. Galal said.

“I want to go back and have fun. My future is there, in Dubai.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/world/middleeast/22dubai.html

comment:

Is this what they are selling their Akhira for?! to drink alcohol and commit zina with prostitutes... to choose haraam dating with a prostitute over a halaal marriage with chaste woman?! To go from a land (Egypt) where people forbid evil and enjoin good to one (Dubai) where they do the opposite. Then there are the hypocrites of Dubai that allow prostitution, alcohol and other major sins as long as you are not seen, do they disbelieve that Allah sees them whether people see them or not?!

[Snowflake]

Al hamdulillah.. let's hope the next thing to be banned is the bars and nightclubs. Can't believe those people in the picture though :omg:

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[aadil77]

Dubai is the devils playground for the arabs, whether its arabs going ther for prostitutes and alcohol or whether its gay arabs going ther for the gay clubs, it kinda like vegas, you go ther and do everything haraam you wanna do and then leave it behind when you're gone.

[Snowflake]

Hm yeh! I saw the King of Dubai or Prince (whichever he is) on the Megastructures program saying that they have to have these things for the tourists. Na udhu billah. May Allah guide him. Ameen.

[Cabdullahi]

sharjah is better and Abu dhabi to a certain extent Alhamdulilah

[Snowflake]

Yup! Dubai is nothing but a tourist attraction. Like the bro said a playground for clowns.

[Supreme]

Dubai has far bigger problems to deal with. Notably, its ill treatment of Indian and other Asian expatriate workers. This isn't, and indeed shouldn't be, a priority for the emirate. Nevertheless, I've never found the appeal in Dubai- I don't want to go to a city where Arabs and practising Muslims are in a minority, or at least secluded for the most part from average city life, to experience Arab culture. I believe that if I did go, I would respect the laws of the land, as I believe that it is only good nature, irregardless of just how inane and redundant the laws might sound to me.

[aadil77]

I've never found the appeal in Dubai- I don't want to go to a city where Arabs and practising Muslims are in a minority, or at least secluded for the most part from average city life, to experience Arab culture. I believe that if I did go, I would respect the laws of the land, as I believe that it is only good nature, irregardless of just how inane and redundant the laws might sound to me.

I know what you mean, when I went there I saw people from everywher in the world but hardly any arabs lol. The only place they could be found is in the mall or driving around in their flashy cars. Just feels weird not being able to interact with locals and see what they're about, you won't find any emiratis working in shops or walking down the road, if you do see arabs they most likely will not be emirati.

[Chuck]

Is this what they are selling their Akhira for?! to drink alcohol and commit zina with prostitutes... To go from a land (Egypt) where people forbid evil and enjoin good to one (Dubai) where they do the opposite

Just to point a fact, Egypt is not like it is portrayed to be in the article. My wife is from Egypt, and I've been there. Alcohol is not banned in Egypt. They showed the story of one guy and his life was different in Egypt, more religious, because of the company he had (see the life of non-religious youth in Egypt, it is much worse, chasing women, no work, no work ethics, etc...). In Dubai, he didn't had religious company, and so right kind of friends or/and family is important. For example, like one of the guy mentioned in this article:

That, in turn, creates an atmosphere that is open not only to those inclined to a less observant way of life, but also to those who are more religious. In Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Algeria, a man with a long beard is often treated as an Islamist — and sometimes denied work. Not here in Dubai.

“Here, I can practice my religion in a natural and free way because it is a Muslim country and I can also achieve my ambition at work,” said Ahmed Kassab, 30, an electrical engineer from Zagazig Egypt, who wears a long dark beard and has a prayer mark on his forehead. “People here judge the person based on productivity more than what he looks like. It’s different in Egypt, of course.”

[LauraS]

I want to go to Egypt and Morocco. I want to visit an Arabic market, I'm not why lol it's just something I will do one day. :D

As to the topic I don't see why dancing or holding hands is inappropriate, who is anyone to say people can't do that really? Kissing's alright in my opinion if it's not full on snogging, they're starting to climb on top of each other type of kissing, then I think get a room.

[aadil77]

they can do it in their own privacy, among muslims we have this concept of a sense of 'shame' and 'modesty' its common amongst non-muslim south asians too, that you don't do acts which seem shameful like showing affection in public

dancing, kissing in public are big no no's, holding hands you might be able to get away with but still best not to do it

[Supreme]

I want to go to Egypt and Morocco. I want to visit an Arabic market, I'm not why lol it's just something I will do one day. :D

As to the topic I don't see why dancing or holding hands is inappropriate, who is anyone to say people can't do that really? Kissing's alright in my opinion if it's not full on snogging, they're starting to climb on top of each other type of kissing, then I think get a room.

Yep, I'd love to go visit the narrow, bustling streets of a medina, especially Cairo or Alexandria.

[Predator]

Yep, I'd love to go visit the narrow, bustling streets of a medina

That wont happen unless you embrace Islam

[Supreme]

That wont happen unless you embrace Islam

....actually, the only thing stopping me is the financial cost of such a trip.

[LauraS]

Cairo or Alexandria it is then. :D

[Predator]

....actually, the only thing stopping me is the financial cost of such a trip.

And you are also unclean as well

( Quran 9:28).

"Oh you who believe! Truly the idolaters are unclean; so let them not, after this year, approach the Sacred Mosque...."

You will only end up in this road of non-muslims

[aadil77]

;D bro you kill it

[Supreme]

And you are also unclean as well

( Quran 9:28).

"Oh you who believe! Truly the idolaters are unclean; so let them not, after this year, approach the Sacred Mosque...."

You will only end up in this road of non-muslims

Remind me where I mentioned the Sacred mosque? This is where being skilled at reading helps.

[جوري]

Yep, I'd love to go visit the narrow, bustling streets of a medina.

Remind me where I mentioned the Sacred mosque? This is where being skilled at reading helps.

"Medina'' is a sacred mosque

موسوعة المدينة المنورة700 × 670 - 105k - jpg



all the best

[Supreme]

"Medina'' is a sacred mosque

موسوعة المدينة المنورة700 × 670 - 105k - jpg



all the best

I see. I was referring to the medina quarter that is found in most North African cities. One would have thought the 'a' before the word 'medina' would have been a clue, as would the fact I mentioned two North African cities that have medinas in them.

[جوري]

I see. I was referring to the medina quarter that is found in most North African cities. One would have thought the 'a' before the word 'medina' would have been a clue, as would the fact I mentioned two North African cities that have medinas in them.

I am a native Arabic speaker and if you speak of 'Medina' it is automatically understood as the holy city.. the word you are looking for it midan/ ميدان.. not medina.. so um though I didn't insult you as you've done the other member for understanding the term as the rest of us do I wish you'd desist persisting in your folly..

all the best

[Pygoscelis]

And you are also unclean as well

( Quran 9:28).

"Oh you who believe! Truly the idolaters are unclean; so let them not, after this year, approach the Sacred Mosque...."

You will only end up in this road of non-muslims

I can't tell if that road sign is a joke or for real.

Either way its kind of silly and ironic. You complain about being discriminated against by not being allowed to wear face masks in public in western nations and then tell non-muslims they are dirty and need to drive on a different road? hehehe

[Ramadhan]

I can't tell if that road sign is a joke or for real.

Either way its kind of silly and ironic. You complain about being discriminated against by not being allowed to wear face masks in public in western nations and then tell non-muslims they are dirty and need to drive on a different road? hehehe

The sign is real. It marks the boundaries of haram lands, where non-muslim are not allowed to enter, and not as you claim the sign represents (which I think reflects your poor misconception). Every visitor to Saudi Arabia knows that they cannot enter haraamain if they are not muslim.

And unlike western nation, Saudi Arabia does not pretend to have "democracy" or "freedom of speech" or freedom whatever.

So I don't understand your rant here.
Does not make sense at all.

I feel sorry for you. You are ignorant but you think you know-all.
May Allah SWT guide you.

[Chuck]

I can't tell if that road sign is a joke or for real.

Either way its kind of silly and ironic. You complain about being discriminated against by not being allowed to wear face masks in public in western nations and then tell non-muslims they are dirty and need to drive on a different road? hehehe

You can complain to God

[Pygoscelis]

You can complain to God

I'm not complaining. I'm just noting the irony of folks claiming to be discriminated against while discriminating against others.

[Pygoscelis]

I feel sorry for you. You are ignorant but you think you know-all.

How can you claim I think I know all in response to my specific statement about not knowing something?

[joedawun]

I am a native Arabic speaker and if you speak of 'Medina' it is automatically understood as the holy city.. the word you are looking for it midan/ ميدان.. not medina.. so um though I didn't insult you as you've done the other member for understanding the term as the rest of us do I wish you'd desist persisting in your folly..

all the best

You may be correcting Supreme's mistake with the Arabic language, but it is hardly in a civil, respectful manner. All the more disturbing since his intent was not to deride or insult Muslims or Islam, but was rather to show an interest in Arabic culture. Perhaps you have cured him of that interest now.

You may well feel frustrated that non Muslims have so little understanding and so many misconceptions about Islam & Muslims. Perhaps you might take a close look at the tone of your corrections and explanations and ask if they are the best way to invite someone interested in understanding to explore any further.

[CosmicPathos]

That sign is as real as it gets. See it every time I go to Makkah, allhamdulillah. and I LOVE to see it. Keep those tourist kaafirs out who otherwise would spare not time in getting out in their bikinis and beach suites to tan in the Sun while taking photographs in front of "the black cube that them Muzzies worship." Yes, they can be that ridiculous, immature and disgusting. And ooh, who knows they might also want to have a booze party on one of them high minarets ... you know, close to clouds, high up in illusions while being drunk ...

[shuraimfan4lyf]

My favorite old pic of Makkah..gives me a smile on my face everytime I see it :)



Dubai should get stricter..its a shame to see those kind of behaviors going on in a muslim country.

[CosmicPathos]

And you are also unclean as well

( Quran 9:28).

"Oh you who believe! Truly the idolaters are unclean; so let them not, after this year, approach the Sacred Mosque...."

You will only end up in this road of non-muslims

wohoooooo

[Ramadhan]

How can you claim I think I know all in response to my specific statement about not knowing something?

Well, in the first part of your statements you did admit ignorance about the sign, but in the second part you ventured to care nothing for any explanation given and even gave another illogical statement.

This kind of thing normally comes off the mouth of an ignorant who sadly don't know that they are.

[LauraS]

You may be correcting Supreme's mistake with the Arabic language, but it is hardly in a civil, respectful manner. All the more disturbing since his intent was not to deride or insult Muslims or Islam, but was rather to show an interest in Arabic culture. Perhaps you have cured him of that interest now.

You may well feel frustrated that non Muslims have so little understanding and so many misconceptions about Islam & Muslims. Perhaps you might take a close look at the tone of your corrections and explanations and ask if they are the best way to invite someone interested in understanding to explore any further.

Completely agree, just rudeness that wouldn't be tolerated if it was the other way around.

mad scientist not all non-Muslims are drunken louts you know. I don't drink and I have friends that don't. I've also never heard Muslims referred to as "Muzzies" :S

[Predator]

I'm not complaining. I'm just noting the irony of folks claiming to be discriminated against while discriminating against others.

The following points will serve to elucidate the possible reasoning behind such a restriction.

1. All citizens are not permitted in the cantonment area



A citizen not permitted to enter certain restricted areas like the cantonment. In every country there are certain areas where a common citizen of that country cannot enter. Only a citizen who is enrolled in the military or those who are connected with the defence of the country are allowed in the cantonment area. Similarly Islam is a Universal Religion for the entire world and for all human beings. The cantonment areas of Islam are the two holy cites of Makkah and Madinah. Here only those who believe in Islam and are involved in the defence of Islam i.e. the Muslims are allowed.



It would be illogical for a common citizen to object against the restriction on entering a cantonment area. Similarly it is not appropriate for non-Muslims to object against the restriction on non-Muslims against entering Makkah and Madinah.



2. Visa to enter Makkah and Madinah



a. Whenever a person travels to a foreign country he has to first apply for a visa i.e. the permission to enter that country. Every country has its own rules, regulations and requirements for issuing a visa. Unless their critera are satisfied they will not issue a visa.



b. One of the countries which is very strict in issuing a visa is the United States of America, especially when issuing visas to citizens of the third world. They have several conditions and requirements to be fulfilled before they issue a visa.

c. When you visit Singapore, it was mentioned on their immigration form - death to drug traffickers. If I want to visit Singapore I have to abide by the rules. I cannot say that death penalty is a barbaric punishment. Only if I agree with their requirements and conditions will I be permitted to enter the country.



d. The Visa – The primary condition required for any human being to enter Makkah or Madina is to say with his lips, La ila ha illallah Muhammed ur Rasulullah meaning that ‘there is no God but Allah and Muhammed (pbuh) is His Messenger.’

[Predator]

Keep those tourist kaafirs out who otherwise would spare not time in getting out in their bikinis and beach suites to tan in the Sun while taking photographs in front of "the black cube that them Muzzies worship." Yes, they can be that ridiculous, immature and disgusting. And ooh, who knows they might also want to have a booze party on one of them high minarets ... you know, close to clouds, high up in illusions while being drunk ...

And it would even keep out those even more dangerous Hindu Kaafirs pigs who might even a fling a grenade inside a mosque as they did in the Mecca Masjid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC1IjVaeN-Y

[جوري]

I can't tell if that road sign is a joke or for real.

Either way its kind of silly and ironic. You complain about being discriminated against by not being allowed to wear face masks in public in western nations and then tell non-muslims they are dirty and need to drive on a different road? hehehe

That is funny.. what do you want to do in the holy-land? It isn't a tourist spot.. I know of Muslims on a five year waiting list to make the last ritual and others saving for 20+ yrs.. why should a kaffir be allowed there? furthermore why would you want to go there-- when it is strictly for completing the last religious rite? Thanks God that there are at least two spots in this universe safe from filth!

[جوري]

You may be correcting Supreme's mistake with the Arabic language, but it is hardly in a civil, respectful manner. All the more disturbing since his intent was not to deride or insult Muslims or Islam, but was rather to show an interest in Arabic culture. Perhaps you have cured him of that interest now.

You may well feel frustrated that non Muslims have so little understanding and so many misconceptions about Islam & Muslims. Perhaps you might take a close look at the tone of your corrections and explanations and ask if they are the best way to invite someone interested in understanding to explore any further.

Oh-- so this :

This is where being skilled at reading helps.

wasn't meant in a derogatory fashion -- ignorant and pompous and you have the nerve to comment? In fact you should carry that thought through, because I have absolutely no desire to correct or expend much time on why you view Muslims the way you do!.. I genuinely couldn't give a ****.. and if I did then logic would dictate that I'd not be on a Muslim forum doing so!

Completely agree, just rudeness that wouldn't be tolerated if it was the other way around.

mad scientist not all non-Muslims are drunken louts you know. I don't drink and I have friends that don't. I've also never heard Muslims referred to as "Muzzies" :S

As I have said before, if you don't like it here, don't be a member here.. that goes for the other fellow too-- in fact I think you've incommoded your hosts, you'd not last a day on another forum!

all the best

[LauraS]

Oh-- so this :



wasn't meant in a derogatory fashion -- ignorant and pompous and you have the nerve to comment? In fact you should carry that thought through, because I have absolutely no desire to correct or expend much time on why you view Muslims the way you do!.. I genuinely couldn't give a ****.. and if I did then logic would dictate that I'd not be on a Muslim forum doing so!



As I have said before, if you don't like it here, don't be a member here.. that goes for the other fellow too-- in fact I think you've incommoded your hosts, you'd not last a day on another forum!

all the best

I haven't done anything wrong, just because I've come on here and am a non-Muslim that doesn't mean I expect to get spoken to rudely. There's no reason why mistakes can't be explained politely, it's got nothing to do with religion or race, I'd say the same to someone on the forum about budgies I'm also a member of.

[LauraS]

That is funny.. what do you want to do in the holy-land? It isn't a tourist spot.. I know of Muslims on a five year waiting list to make the last ritual and others saving for 20+ yrs.. why should a kaffir be allowed there? furthermore why would you want to go there-- when it is strictly for completing the last religious rite? Thanks God that there are at least two spots in this universe safe from filth!

Describing Kaafir as filth?

[جوري]

I haven't done anything wrong, just because I've come on here and am a non-Muslim that doesn't mean I expect to get spoken to rudely. There's no reason why mistakes can't be explained politely, it's got nothing to do with religion or race, I'd say the same to someone on the forum about budgies I'm also a member of.

Members here are allowed to express themselves in the way they please..try to refresh your memory on the amendments that you so love to refer to when making vile comics.. No one is under any obligation to handle you with kid gloves to spare your feeling, given that you have granted no one the same courtesy, I think the majority of Muslims here are about fed up with you!

Describing Kaafir as filth?

Indeed I find kufr to equate to filth!

all the best

[Skavau]

Members here are allowed to express themselves in the way they please..

No they aren't. This forum has rules.

No one is under any obligation to handle you with kid gloves to spare your feeling, given that you have granted no one the same courtesy, I think the majority of Muslims here are about fed up with you!

You attempt at trying to push almost every non-muslim on this forum from it is as usual, noted. No-one is demanding "kid gloves" for anything on here - merely they are pointing out some of the things that other people are saying on here.

There are guidelines at conversation that exist on here. They are (usually) enforced from my observation and Non-Muslims are allowed, within those guidelines to debate and discuss civilly - and that includes criticism of other members on here, muslim or otherwise.

[LauraS]

Members here are allowed to express themselves in the way they please..try to refresh your memory on the amendments that you so love to refer to when making vile comics.. No one is under any obligation to handle you with kid gloves to spare your feeling, given that you have granted no one the same courtesy, I think the majority of Muslims here are about fed up with you!


Indeed I find kufr to equate to filth!

all the best

I have not spoken to anybody to way some members have on this thread. Of course people are allowed to express themselves but you should at least try to do it with some manners. Imagine if I called Muslims filth (which I certainly wouldn't)? There'd be an outcry, it would be considered a racist comment. I and the other non Muslims are not filth and I think if I made a complaint to the forum admins about that comment it wouldn't be you they'd side with.

I said I came on this forum for debate because obviously Islam is a big subject in the press at the moment, I want to speak to Muslims about it and hear what they have to say about some of the issues. If you aren't mature enough to handle a debate without getting defensive thinking I'm spouting anti-Islam nonsense, that's not my problem.

[Ramadhan]

Describing Kaafir as filth?

They are unclean

[Ramadhan]

That is funny.. what do you want to do in the holy-land? It isn't a tourist spot.. I know of Muslims on a five year waiting list to make the last ritual and others saving for 20+ yrs.. why should a kaffir be allowed there? furthermore why would you want to go there-- when it is strictly for completing the last religious rite?

Indeed, in the province where my mum lives, the waiting list for hajj is actually 5 years, and my mum's old maid (my nanny when I was a baby) had to save money for 20+ years before she was able to go to Makkah-Madinah.

Thanks God that there are at least two spots in this universe safe from filth!

And from hadith, we know that angels guard the gates of Makkah and Madinah and even dajjal (al dajjal al maseeh - the anti christ) will not be able to enter.

[Predator]

I can't tell if that road sign is a joke or for real.

Saudi officials have arrested a man in Mecca for being a Christian, saying that the city, which Muslims consider to be holy, is off-limits to non-Muslims.

Nirosh Kamanda, a Sri Lankan Christian, was detained by the Saudi Expatriates Monitoring Committee last week after he started to sell goods outside Mecca's Great Mosque.

After running his fingerprints through a new security system, Saudi police discovered that he was a Christian who had arrived in the country six months earlier to take a job as a truck driver in the city of Dammam. Kamanda had subsequently left his place of work and moved to Mecca.

"The Grand Mosque and the holy city are forbidden to non-Muslims," Col. Suhail Matrafi, head of the department of Expatriates Affairs in Mecca, told the Saudi daily Arab News. "The new fingerprints system is very helpful and will help us a lot to discover the identity of a lot of criminals," he said.

Similar restrictions apply to the Saudi city of Medina. In a section entitled, "Traveler's Information," the Web site of the Saudi Embassy in Washington states that, "Mecca and Medina hold special religious significance and only persons of the Islamic faith are allowed entry."

Highway signs at the entrance to Mecca also direct non-Muslims away from the city's environs.


http://eye-on-the-world.blogspot.com...-entering.html


Travel Through Saudi Arabia on a Harley-Davidson
By Peter & Kay Forwood

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/forwood/saudiar2.shtml

26/1/06 -We headed towards Medina, the town from where Muhammad conquered all of Arabia, and is now a Holy City. As such non Muslims are not permitted to enter, as with Mecca, and they must avoid the town by driving around the town along the signposted, "Road for Non Muslims"

[جوري]

No they aren't. This forum has rules.

Yes they are, I haven't written you Laura are filthy, you skavu is filthy .. I said Kuffr equates to filth.

You attempt at trying to push almost every non-muslim on this forum from it is as usual, noted. No-one is demanding "kid gloves" for anything on here - merely they are pointing out some of the things that other people are saying on here.

Please, go chime in agreement with someone somewhere else.. and again as stated if you don't like it here don't be a member here.. You haven't contributed anything to Islam or Muslims or the community, a discourse with you is often in vain in fact we are warned against that in Islam. This forum is meant to propagate Islam and dispel or clarify misconceptions from historical accounts, other than that, no one is under any obligation to be 'nice' to you, although admittedly I find that slightly amusing considering.. a double blind hypocrisy doesn't nullify itself!

There are guidelines at conversation that exist on here. They are (usually) enforced from my observation and Non-Muslims are allowed, within those guidelines to debate and discuss civilly - and that includes criticism of other members on here, muslim or otherwise.

See above!

I have not spoken to anybody to way some members have on this thread. Of course people are allowed to express themselves but you should at least try to do it with some manners. Imagine if I called Muslims filth (which I certainly wouldn't)? There'd be an outcry, it would be considered a racist comment. I and the other non Muslims are not filth and I think if I made a complaint to the forum admins about that comment it wouldn't be you they'd side with.

I have already stated what you think or don't think is inconsequential -- you are allowed your thoughts!

I said I came on this forum for debate because obviously Islam is a big subject in the press at the moment, I want to speak to Muslims about it and hear what they have to say about some of the issues. If you aren't mature enough to handle a debate without getting defensive thinking I'm spouting anti-Islam nonsense, that's not my problem.

? Muslims run the gamut, as stated we are not here conform to a particular style that appeals to you, if you don't like the responses given here, it isn't lack of maturity on the members parts, rather your own perception -- I find your approach and style sophomoric in general as even after repeated replies you pose the same nonsense hoping for a response that caters to your own values.. how funny are you?

[joedawun]

Oh-- so this :
wasn't meant in a derogatory fashion -- ignorant and pompous and you have the nerve to comment? In fact you should carry that thought through, because I have absolutely no desire to correct or expend much time on why you view Muslims the way you do!.. I genuinely couldn't give a ****.. and if I did then logic would dictate that I'd not be on a Muslim forum doing so!
As I have said before, if you don't like it here, don't be a member here.. that goes for the other fellow too-- in fact I think you've incommoded your hosts, you'd not last a day on another forum!
all the best

No worries, my view of Muslims and Islam are not negatively affected by you. I can see the forest for the trees, and every forest has sick and diseased trees.


All the best right back to you...

[waji]

And you are also unclean as well
( Quran 9:28).
"Oh you who believe! Truly the idolaters are unclean; so let them not, after this year, approach the Sacred Mosque...."
You will only end up in this road of non-muslims

:sl:
This ayat says about Masjid
and i think non muslims are allowed to enter Makkah and Madina
But Saudi Arab has the right to restrict any one from entering the cities
even Muslims
and People are talking about Dubai
Here is more shocking news

[جوري]

Indeed, in the province where my mum lives, the waiting list for hajj is actually 5 years, and my mum's old maid (my nanny when I was a baby) had to save money for 20+ years before she was able to go to Makkah-Madinah.

That is why the fifth and last rite is stated to whomever can afford it and find a way.. and these morons want to turn it into a tourist spot? I have seen some vile images where they turn mecca into a hooters/ race car track destination.. in fact what other reason could they possibly have for wanting to be there.. why should Muslims struggle to get there for a religious purpose while these imbeciles feel that they imbeciles are allowed to go in as to 'not be discriminated against' if they desire to see Mosques or how Muslims pray then there is a zillion mosque open to them, if they weren't too busy passing laws to ban Mosques and minarets while having an outcry as to why they can't go to those two!

And from hadith, we know that angels guard the gates of Makkah and Madinah and even dajjal (al dajjal al maseeh - the anti christ) will not be able to enter.

Al7mdlillah..

:w:

[LauraS]

You fail to see my point that it's not about the arguments themselves, it's about being able to speak in a polite and sensible manner, not just turning to insults because you disagree with what someone says. If everyone was typing the way you are then the board would be a warzone, thankfully I have found other people on the forum who are quite happy to discuss things in a calm manner and don't seem to mind me asking questions. So no thank you, I think I'll stay. :)

[Ramadhan]

Here is more shocking news

That IS truly shocking, I am flabbergasted!

[جوري]

No worries, my view of Muslims and Islam are not negatively affected by you. I can see the forest for the trees, and every forest has sick and diseased trees.


All the best right back to you...

I have no worries as far as you are concerned and again it is inconsequential how you 'view the forest or the trees' when you can't bother to acknowledge that a statement made in error was also insulting to another member -- please take that grandiosity scheme down a few notches or take it to your health-care provider we are not here to nurse your ego back to good health!

all the best

[جوري]

You fail to see my point that it's not about the arguments themselves, it's about being able to speak in a polite and sensible manner, not just turning to insults because you disagree with what someone says. If everyone was typing the way you are then the board would be a warzone, thankfully I have found other people on the forum who are quite happy to discuss things in a calm manner and don't seem to mind me asking questions. So no thank you, I think I'll stay. :)

I don't see anyone making a directed reply to you on this thread 'polite of otherwise'-- in fact you saw fit to insinuate yourself in agreement with another on the account that you don't have enough moxie to speak your own mind.. it is actually called cowardliness and not a trait to be applauded..

get over yourself!

all the best

[Supreme]

I cannot believe how one member's lack of understanding of one of my posts has managed to degenerate this thread into meaningless, unrelated spam!

[جوري]

so strange how a thread about dancing in Dubai took a turn Mecca to Medina to coaxing these kaffirs who on another thread are defending with every last cell in their body the right to Insult the prophet..

sob7an Allah.. what a strange world..

[جوري]

I cannot believe how one member's lack of understanding of one of my posts has managed to degenerate this thread into meaningless, unrelated spam!

Actually you are the only one who misunderstood what you have written!
either way Egypt/Alexandria or the two holy sites have nothing to do with Dubai or dancing so the spam goes back to page 1!

all the best

[Predator]

:sl:
This ayat says about Masjid
and i think non muslims are allowed to enter Makkah and Madina
But Saudi Arab has the right to restrict any one from entering the cities
even Muslims

Banning Non-Muslims from entering the the whole city Makkah and Madinah was the right thing to do . They are plenty of other holy places in both cities like Mount Hira , Mount Uhud , Muna ,Arafat Qubaa Mosque , Qiblatain Mosque , Meeqat Mosque , etc .

Long ago , The late Sheikh Ahmed deedat invited Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart for a lecture in the city of Makkah and Saudi government approved it . But as usual , that spineless coward who had slept with *****s just backed off saying "it was a setup" .

[Ramadhan]

Banning Non-Muslims from entering the the whole city Makkah and Madinah was the right thing to do . They are plenty of other holy places in both cities like Mount Hira , Mount Uhud , Muna ,Arafat Qubaa Mosque , Qiblatain Mosque , Meeqat Mosque , etc .

Also, there is no way you can supervise and ensure that non-muslims do not "approach" the two mosques if they are not totally banned from entering the two cities.

As it turns out, this ban also fulfills the prophecy of the hadith which says that Dajjal will not be able to enter the two cities because a pair of angels will guard the seven gates of the cities.

[waji]

Banning Non-Muslims from entering the the whole city Makkah and Madinah was the right thing to do . They are plenty of other holy places in both cities like Mount Hira , Mount Uhud , Muna ,Arafat Qubaa Mosque , Qiblatain Mosque , Meeqat Mosque , etc .

Long ago , The late Sheikh Ahmed deedat invited Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart for a lecture in the city of Makkah and Saudi government approved it . But as usual , that spineless coward who just sleeps with *****s just backed off saying "it was a setup" .

:sl:

Again Are we following Quran ??

Ayat speaks about Masjid not about any other holy places
and Masjid ul Haram is only one in the world
its name speaks it self Haram حرام for Non Believers
:w:

[joedawun]

Ok so now on topic: I have no issue whatsoever with observing and respecting the laws, social norms and customs of any place I travel to. If I travel to Dubai and it is illegal to dance in public and drink alocohol, then I am happy to refrain from those activities while visiting there. I dont drink alcohol or dance anyway, so no big loss in any case. Likewise, observing that as a non-Muslim I am not allowed to travel to Mecca or Medina, then I would not consider visiting those cities nor be insulted that I am not allowed there. Simple matter of respect and understanding.

[LauraS]

the vale's lilly- there is no way to respond to the "get over yourself" comment without turning the argument even more childish. It's the fact that I've been speaking my own mind that has been getting you so wound up on a number of topics already, you don't like being challenged. Supreme's right though, this argument has gone out of control and is now pointless. The picture did actually make me lol.

[جوري]

the vale's lilly- there is no way to respond to the "get over yourself" comment without turning the argument even more childish. It's the fact that I've been speaking my own mind that has been getting you so wound up on a number of topics already, you don't like being challenged. Supreme's right though, this argument has gone out of control and is now pointless. The picture did actually make me lol.

I don't think any 'argument' can be any more than a descent down to a mere word-play as far as you are concerned.. I think the day you become 'challenging' perhaps hell would appear on earth, freeze over and the devils will go ice-skating...The picture wasn't meant to make you 'lol' it was meant to echo your behavior sans the thousand word!

all the best

[LauraS]

I'm quite aware what the picture was intended for. I have different intrepetations though.

[Supreme]

Actually you are the only one who misunderstood what you have written!
either way Egypt/Alexandria or the two holy sites have nothing to do with Dubai or dancing so the spam goes back to page 1!

all the best

Etc, etc....

[Skavau]

Yes they are, I haven't written you Laura are filthy, you skavu is filthy .. I said Kuffr equates to filth.

I am not talking about that. I am stating that there are forum guidelines on how you can conduct yourself. You cannot act anyway you like and you cannot type however you like if they contravene the forum rules.

Please, go chime in agreement with someone somewhere else.. and again as stated if you don't like it here don't be a member here..

Who said I don't like it here? What makes you think that typing disagreement with another person constitutes not liking it here?

You haven't contributed anything to Islam or Muslims or the community, a discourse with you is often in vain in fact we are warned against that in Islam. This forum is meant to propagate Islam and dispel or clarify misconceptions from historical accounts, other than that, no one is under any obligation to be 'nice' to you, although admittedly I find that slightly amusing considering.. a double blind hypocrisy doesn't nullify itself!

Did I say anyone was under some obligation to be nice to me? Where did I say that? At any rate, it is up to Muslims on here as to how they wish to defend, support and present Islam. It is the general objective of the forum to propagate Islam though, of course. I have never disputed that.

[جوري]

I am not talking about that. I am stating that there are forum guidelines on how you can conduct yourself. You cannot act anyway you like and you cannot type however you like if they contravene the forum rules.

I have been in perfect compliance with the forum rules-- in fact one should be allowed to hold an opinion although my opinion of you generally hasn't been expressed to my liking, I think the majority of the Muslims here see you for what you are that I need not point out the obvious!

Who said I don't like it here? What makes you think that typing disagreement with another person constitutes not liking it here?

Your constant belly-aching!

Did I say anyone was under some obligation to be nice to me? Where did I say that? At any rate, it is up to Muslims on here as to how they wish to defend, support and present Islam. It is the general objective of the forum to propagate Islam though, of course. I have never disputed that.

I have no idea what you are arguing for or against half the time, you concoct social mores and propriety as you go along, one only needs to super-impose your protests here over your defenses of vileness in other posts.. Again, a double blind hypocrisy doesn't nullify itself.. pls. quit wasting your time and mine!

all the best

[Pygoscelis]

My sole observation in this thread is the hypocracy of all this.

We've got muslims equating non-muslims with filth and restricting where they can go and what they can do in muslim lands, and then the same muslims compalin about not being discriminated against in the west. Stopping you from having special rights to wear face masks in public is hardly on par with declaring you filth and making you drive on special roadways.

I actually don't care what muslims do in their own lands and I don't plan to ever visit. But when they act THAT discriminatory and then complain about "discrimination" in the west.... why should we take them seriously? Post 9/11 I actually felt sympathy for muslims faced with all the irrational outrage and name-calling from the far right, but my sympathy is waning seeing this same kind of garbage coming from the muslims themselves.

[CosmicPathos]

^^ Hey,

Not letting the filth like you entering the sacred mosque is not discrimination. It simply is the rule and is based on your belief. The moment you accept Islam, you can enter the places without any restrictions except maybe legal paperwork?

Stopping women from wearing a veil in Western countries IS discrimination because the rights of these citizens are being violated by the majority. modern democracies must protect the rights of minorities beacuse they claim that they are bastions of equality and upholders of the freedom of expression? Saudi Arabia never claimed to give equal access to Sacred Mosque to the kaafirs.

So its you and your countrymen (kaafir Francophones) who are being discriminatory rude persons.

[Pygoscelis]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see why we should respect the disrespectful or tolerate the intolerant. You stop calling people filth and maybe we'll start treating you with respect. This whole "you non-muslims are filth" thing is actually new to me. If its true Islamic doctrine and not just the rantings of board members here then I don't see why any non-muslim should respect Islam. What happened to all the "religion of peace" stuff?

[CosmicPathos]

^^ well you'll be treated like that if you treat our Muslim sisters like one in Canada.

Regarding Laura's comment that people should move back to Sharia-applying country, it just shows how ignorant she is. There are revert Canadians who are as Canadian as you can get. THeir "white" ancestors migrated here centuries ago and yes they have white skin and blue/green eyes and whatever comes along with being a "caucasian". Why should they immigrate out of Canada?

[Pygoscelis]

my default is always to resepect people, but if they start declaring all not in their group to be garbage/filth... then they earn my disrespect. If this muslim sister you speak of in Canada agrees that non-muslims are filth then I would hope we'd ban her from citizenship. Canadians are supposed to respect one another. Even the Quebec separatists and federalists don't equate each other with garbage.

[CosmicPathos]

^^ well stop banning the veil then these sisters might treat you with respect if you showed them respect by respecting what they believe in even though you disagreed with it. Sadly (or fortunately?), people are not given Canadian citizenship based on your dictates.

[CosmicPathos]

hmmm isnt being banned from wearing niqab equivalent to being treated as filth? my mom lives in Ontario and wears the niqab. I do not know what would have happened if she was in Quebec. But I do know that if some random joe from the street passed a slur, I'd make sure that I squeeze $1 million from him/her. The other day some old joe with his feet in his grave passed some comment to her in the mall, she just said "Allah akbar," only to see him run away for his pathetic life hahaha

[Chuck]

restricting where they can go and what they can do in muslim lands, and then the same muslims compalin about not being discriminated against in the west.

Don't be such a fruit-cake, discrimination is when there is a right. It is scared mosque, it is specifically designated for muslim and their worship. I go to your house and you don't let me in, is that discrimination?

And as for manners, well i go to japan i've wear proper business dress and show etiquettes. Nothing wrong with that, you are comparing oranges with apples. If they ask to strip something off me, that would be wrong.

[Woodrow]

Forgive me if I am wrong. But it seems that we lost the original topic of the thread a while back. I guess that means the original topic ran it's course and it is now time to say good night and shut the doors before anybody tries to sneak in a last dance.

:threadclo: