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aadil77
05-03-2010, 12:01 PM
A member has brought this up that we should love foreign soldiers for killings muslims, but 'disagree' with their deeds. Anyone know if this is the attitude we should have in islam, to 'love the sinner but hate the sin'. By this thinking we could all love hitler or osama bin laden.

Please provide evidence for your statements
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Asiyah3
05-03-2010, 12:33 PM
I have no comment on the 'love the sinner', but about hating the sin. Surely, in Islam we should hate the sin.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever among you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand (by taking action); if he cannot, then with his tongue (by speaking out); and if he cannot, then with his heart (by hating it and feeling that it is wrong).” (Narrated by Muslim, 49).

My personal opinion to the 'hate the sinner' is that we shouldn't do so, coz' we can't really know if the person has repented from the sin or not (or if he feels bad doing it) or the reasons for it. My point is that we can't judge him by that sin he commits without having the sufficient knowledge. On the other hand, I think it's ok to judge a person based on his deeds such as Hitler or Osama. But that person might do alot more good deeds that we don't know of. Allah knows best.

Edit: To add an example- My uncle was killed by a ruler. Overall the ruler was a good person. He gave people their rights and granted them justice and security. Regardless, many ignorant outsiders use the killings the ruler committed (my uncle among them) as a justification for their own parties' wrongdoings, though, in fact, he did it for a just reason. Now I could've hold a grudge against him for that action he committed if I would've been judgmental or inconsiderate.
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aadil77
05-03-2010, 12:39 PM
Ok I can understand that from a muslim perspective, but what about non-muslims? We believe that their deeds will not be forgiven

Alot of people will promote that we should love everybody and only 'disagree' with sins, christians do this alot even though it is not part of their faith
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cat eyes
05-03-2010, 01:01 PM
well for a kafir it means hate the person too. i mean how could you love somebody who is killing our brothers and sisters?
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Skavau
05-03-2010, 01:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
well for a kafir it means hate the person too. i mean how could you love somebody who is killing our brothers and sisters?
All 'kafir' are actively killing muslims?
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cat eyes
05-03-2010, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
All 'kafir' are actively killing muslims?
where did i say that:hmm::hmm:
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-03-2010, 01:42 PM
Aslaamu aaaykum

Whatever the issue..i disagree ...i think it should be "Sinner is a Human SO,Hate the Sin" rather...sorry i dont have no evidence..

So yeahh

Wa alaaykum Salaam
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
05-03-2010, 01:44 PM
or it can be "Love the Sinner,Hate the sin" whichever way makes sense..

Should feel sorry for the SINNER,theyre going to be in big trouble !
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Skavau
05-03-2010, 01:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
where did i say that:hmm::hmm:
"well for a kafir it means hate the person too. i mean how could you love somebody who is killing our brothers and sisters?"

If you don't mean it, did you suggest hating all kafir anyway?
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cat eyes
05-03-2010, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
"well for a kafir it means hate the person too. i mean how could you love somebody who is killing our brothers and sisters?"

If you don't mean it, did you suggest hating all kafir anyway?
hummmm let me think......well NO of course NOT. why would i hate every kafir for?? its not what my religion tells me to do.
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glo
05-03-2010, 02:04 PM
Another interesting question might be whether God 'loves the sinner, but hates the sin'?

Does God (according to Islam) not show mercy and forgiveness, even when people don't deserve it?
Does that mean he loves us, even when we fall, fail and let him down?
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Skavau
05-03-2010, 02:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
hummmm let me think......well NO of course NOT. why would i hate every kafir for?? its not what my religion tells me to do.
I don't know.Your sentence reads as if you were suggesting that all kafir should be hated.
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Asiyah3
05-03-2010, 02:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I don't know.Your sentence reads as if you were suggesting that all kafir should be hated.
I believe she was referring to this:

A member has brought this up that we should love foreign soldiers for killings muslims
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Asiyah3
05-03-2010, 02:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Ok I can understand that from a muslim perspective, but what about non-muslims? We believe that their deeds will not be forgiven

Alot of people will promote that we should love everybody and only 'disagree' with sins, christians do this alot even though it is not part of their faith
I can't think of any non-muslims that I hate. Though I think that I do have a right to hate those who have hurt me without any (just) reason. I don't think that such folks deserve to be given any status for feelings (even hate), I just know that I don't want to do anything with them.

I like/dislike non-muslims based on their actions (considering their intention). If a non-muslim has wronged me, but is afterwards sincerily sorry and has repented from it, then I would forgive her insha'llah.

'love everybody'? What our religion teaches us holds much more wisdom; kind and just treatment equally to all.
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aadil77
05-03-2010, 04:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Another interesting question might be whether God 'loves the sinner, but hates the sin'?

Does God (according to Islam) not show mercy and forgiveness, even when people don't deserve it?
Does that mean he loves us, even when we fall, fail and let him down?
hmm I was also thinking of it from gods views, I don't think we can say whether He loves us all regardless of sin and disbelief

Allah shows mercy and forgiveness to the believers as far as I know, not sure about forgiveness to disbelievers as it wouldn't make sense
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aadil77
05-03-2010, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by _muslim_
I can't think of any non-muslims that I hate. Though I think that I do have a right to hate those who have hurt me without any (just) reason. I don't think that such folks deserve to be given any status for feelings (even hate), I just know that I don't want to do anything with them.

I like/dislike non-muslims based on their actions (considering their intention). If a non-muslim has wronged me, but is afterwards sincerily sorry and has repented from it, then I would forgive her insha'llah.

'love everybody'? What our religion teaches us holds much more wisdom; kind and just treatment equally to all.
Well I can think of plenty of non-muslims I hate, starting with those who are at war with us. Those that have oppressed us, raped our sisters, made young children into orphans, tortured our brothers, ridiculed our religion etc etc the list goes on and on.

I don't think the 'love everybody' mentality works in islam, like you said we are taught alot more wisdom, we'll deal with everyone with respect and justice but it doesn't mean we have to love them. Love is a very strong emotion, not everyone deserves it.
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glo
05-03-2010, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
hmm I was also thinking of it from gods views, I don't we can say whether He loves us all regardless of sin and disbelief

Allah shows mercy and forgiveness to the believers as far as I know, not sure about forgiveness to disbelievers as it wouldn't make sense
In that sense nobody is beyond God's mercy and forgiveness, don't you think?

If Hitler, in the moments before his death, had sincerely repented all his horrendous sins and submitted to God, would God have forgiven him?
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Abdul-Raouf
05-03-2010, 04:56 PM



Love the sinner hate the sin



^^ Above statement is little bit sensible only if the sinner stopped sinning...

But even that becomes negligible if it is a big sin --> which should result in capital punishment.


Intentions matters most! - and that is visible only to ALLAH and HE is the best JUDGE
.
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aadil77
05-03-2010, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
In that sense nobody is beyond God's mercy and forgiveness, don't you think?

If Hitler, in the moments before his death, had sincerely repented all his horrendous sins and submitted to God, would God have forgiven him?
no the same way He didn't to pharoah when he submitted when he was drowning, but I can't say for certain - Allah Knows Best
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glo
05-03-2010, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
no the same way He didn't to pharoah when he submitted when he was drowning, but I can't say for certain - Allah Knows Best
Yes, I have always wondered about Pharaoh, and about how he seemed to be destined by God to be the bad guy in the plot. The Bible mentions several time God stating that he would 'harden Pharaoh's heart'.

I cannot recall the Bible mentioning that Pharaoh repented and submitted to God when he was drowning, and that God did not have mercy on him. Does the Qu'ran say so specifically?

I hope and pray that God's love and forgiveness is greater than our human hearts and minds can comprehend ...
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PouringRain
05-03-2010, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
I don't think the 'love everybody' mentality works in islam, like you said we are taught alot more wisdom, we'll deal with everyone with respect and justice but it doesn't mean we have to love them. Love is a very strong emotion, not everyone deserves it.
This part of your post made me instantly think about the various forms of love. I was thinking of some examples that go along with this topic..... for example, if a parent punishes a naughty child, the parent does so out of a love for that child, not out of an anger or hatred. Likewise when God punishes us it is because he loves us and wants the best for us in our lives. When I think of loving the sinner and not the sin, these are the things I think about. As an individual, we love the person and show them God's love through us, but we do not accept the sin. This does not mean we must bring them into our home, nor dine with them, nor anything. It is not condoning the sin, but it is a recognizing of the sinner as a human being-- and we have all sinned and are all sinners. None of us is perfect and all are in need of God's mercy. We all have different struggles in life. Some are certainly worse than others. Each of us will have to one day stand before God and give account of all of our sins.

Anyhow, those are some of my thoughts on love and on loving the sinner and not the sin.

I have a question.... in Arabic how many forms of "love" are there and how is it defined? Or in Urdu even, since many of the forum members speak that. I know that in English "love" is often loosely thrown around to mean MANY things. I do it as well. "I absolutely LOOOOOOOVE eating lobster!" But it is not a romantic love, nor even a godly love, nor even a love that I might have for a child, etc. So, in English we have this ONE word "love" that means so many different things and is often confused by individuals with other emotions. In Greek there are many words for love and each word indicating a different form of love. When I studied Spanish it was taught that you can not "love" a thing. Love could only be for a person. So in Spanish it would never be proper to express "love" for a food. Anyhow, not trying to derail the topic, but since the words "love" are central to the topic I was curious about in what ways "love" is used in these languages. I think often the way we interpret words can be also part of why we all have differing views on things.

Thanks for reading my ramblings..... :)
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glo
05-03-2010, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
Likewise when God punishes us it is because he loves us and wants the best for us in our lives. When I think of loving the sinner and not the sin, these are the things I think about.
Thank you for sharing that.
I think you are right. Love and punishment are not necessarily mutually exclusive!

A mother who turns her drug-addicted son over to the police, may well do so out of love.

As an individual, we love the person and show them God's love through us, but we do not accept the sin. This does not mean we must bring them into our home, nor dine with them, nor anything. It is not condoning the sin, but it is a recognizing of the sinner as a human being-- and we have all sinned and are all sinners. None of us is perfect and all are in need of God's mercy. We all have different struggles in life. Some are certainly worse than others. Each of us will have to one day stand before God and give account of all of our sins.
That's beautiful! :statisfie

It reminds me of Jesus' commandment to not judge others.
It is all so easy to point the finger at the sins and failings of others, rather than scrutinising our own hearts, actions and intentions ... :hmm:

Thanks for reading my ramblings..... :)
I can only speak for myself - but I for one and enjoying 'your ramblings'. :)
Very interesting thread!
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aadil77
05-03-2010, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Yes, I have always wondered about Pharaoh, and about how he seemed to be destined by God to be the bad guy in the plot. The Bible mentions several time God stating that he would 'harden Pharaoh's heart'.

I cannot recall the Bible mentioning that Pharaoh repented and submitted to God when he was drowning, and that God did not have mercy on him. Does the Qu'ran say so specifically?

I hope and pray that God's love and forgiveness is greater than our human hearts and minds can comprehend ...
This is what the Quran says

And We took the children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts followed them in oppression and enmity, till when drowning overtook him, he said: "I believe that La ilaha illa huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but) He, in whom the children of Israel believe, and I am one of the Muslims (those who submit to Allah's Will)."

Now (you believe) while you refused to believe before and you were one of the mufsideen (evildoers, corrupts, etc.). So this day We shall deliver your dead body out from the sea that you maybe a sign to those who come after you! And verily, many among mankind are heedless or our Ayah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.). (10:90-92 Quran)


Actually I'm not sure, its not clear from the verses, hmm.....

One thing amazing is that the body is still preserved to go and see
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aadil77
05-03-2010, 05:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
This part of your post made me instantly think about the various forms of love. I was thinking of some examples that go along with this topic..... for example, if a parent punishes a naughty child, the parent does so out of a love for that child, not out of an anger or hatred. Likewise when God punishes us it is because he loves us and wants the best for us in our lives. When I think of loving the sinner and not the sin, these are the things I think about. As an individual, we love the person and show them God's love through us, but we do not accept the sin. This does not mean we must bring them into our home, nor dine with them, nor anything. It is not condoning the sin, but it is a recognizing of the sinner as a human being-- and we have all sinned and are all sinners. None of us is perfect and all are in need of God's mercy. We all have different struggles in life. Some are certainly worse than others. Each of us will have to one day stand before God and give account of all of our sins.

Anyhow, those are some of my thoughts on love and on loving the sinner and not the sin.

I have a question.... in Arabic how many forms of "love" are there and how is it defined? Or in Urdu even, since many of the forum members speak that. I know that in English "love" is often loosely thrown around to mean MANY things. I do it as well. "I absolutely LOOOOOOOVE eating lobster!" But it is not a romantic love, nor even a godly love, nor even a love that I might have for a child, etc. So, in English we have this ONE word "love" that means so many different things and is often confused by individuals with other emotions. In Greek there are many words for love and each word indicating a different form of love. When I studied Spanish it was taught that you can not "love" a thing. Love could only be for a person. So in Spanish it would never be proper to express "love" for a food. Anyhow, not trying to derail the topic, but since the words "love" are central to the topic I was curious about in what ways "love" is used in these languages. I think often the way we interpret words can be also part of why we all have differing views on things.

Thanks for reading my ramblings..... :)
The thing is for your example of god punishing us because he loves us, I can agree with this but I can't apply it to everyone including non-muslims. We believe that Allah punishes us in this world out of His Mercy as it acts as an expeation of the sin we originally commited.

We don't believe that disbelievers can attain forgiveness as it wouldn't make sense.

'As an individual, we love the person and show them God's love through us, but we do not accept the sin. This does not mean we must bring them into our home, nor dine with them, nor anything. It is not condoning the sin, but it is a recognizing of the sinner as a human being-- and we have all sinned and are all sinners.'

Regarding this statement, again I do think christians throw around the word love, I don't understand why as it clearly contradicts with your beliefs, I think its used to promote the religion more than reflect the true teachings of christianity. Love is a very strong emotion like I said, I don't believe that you or any christian on this planet truly loves everyone - its not possible. You can't even like every person on this planet, I'm sure you don't like hitler let alone love him.

Yes we are all sinners, we all commit minor sins but we do have control over major sins, such as the massacre of millions of innocent people
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Asiyah3
05-03-2010, 05:48 PM
*****edit*****
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aadil77
05-03-2010, 05:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by _muslim_
*****edit*****
whats unjust? to hate those certain people? or what they did was unjust?
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جوري
05-03-2010, 06:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Another interesting question might be whether God 'loves the sinner, but hates the sin'?

Does God (according to Islam) not show mercy and forgiveness, even when people don't deserve it?
Does that mean he loves us, even when we fall, fail and let him down?
What God in his benevolent will seeks to do to saints and sinners alike is in his own divine wisdom.. we should stop acting like we're God, feign to understand what God wants, or believe that God tells us to make tea and kill Muslims .. in the immortal words of Helen Keller ''
I do not want the peace which passeth understanding!

certainly when kaffirs commit crimes against Muslims, they should be hated along with their deeds.. for their deeds echo the hatred hidden in their hearts even if they feign love and mercy on the outside.. certainly actions speak much louder than words!
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CosmicPathos
05-03-2010, 06:39 PM
I do not think Muslims can love the sinner and just hate the sin. Sure we can expect the sinner to accept Islam and hence become good but before that, its doubtful that he should be loved especially if he is actively rejecting Allah after being given the truth.

@ Skavaou: Yes, we (I?) hate all atheist kaafirs for rejecting God.
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Ummu Sufyaan
05-07-2010, 08:06 AM
this isnt an Islamic perspective or anything...

i dont think anyone should love a solider who butchers up their brothers and sisters.

for those non-Muslims who aren't at war with you, or insult Islam, etc treat them kindly and justfully when they treat you likewise and/or haven't done anything to earn being treated unjustfully, etc.
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DataPacRat
05-09-2010, 12:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
I do not think Muslims can love the sinner and just hate the sin. Sure we can expect the sinner to accept Islam and hence become good but before that, its doubtful that he should be loved especially if he is actively rejecting Allah after being given the truth.

@ Skavaou: Yes, we (I?) hate all atheist kaafirs for rejecting God.
Hello; your friendly neighbourhood atheist here.

So - you claim to hate me. Very well then; how does that hate translate into action? That is, how do you act differently towards atheists compared to how you act towards non-Muslim theists (such as Christians or Hindus), or towards Muslims?


Thank you for your time,
--
DataPacRat
lu .iacu'i ma krinu lo du'u .ei mi krici la'e di'u li'u traji lo ka vajni fo lo preti
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