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quranalim
05-12-2010, 04:45 PM
These days if somone mocks the prophet....and even when we knwo what teh punishment for thos is...


why do muslims make up excuses not to carry out this punishment....

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) wrote a valuable book on this matter, entitled al-Saarim al-Maslool ‘ala Shaatim al-Rasool which every believer should read, especially in these times when a lot of hypocrites and heretics dare to insult the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) because they see that the Muslims are careless and feel little protective jealousy towards their religion and their Prophet, and they do not implement the shar’i punishment which would deter these people and their ilk from committing this act of blatant kufr.
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 04:47 PM
source: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809
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Skavau
05-12-2010, 05:09 PM
Muslims living in secular societies have become integrated and understand that Sharia Law does not exist, is not plausible and will not be supported there. You are in effect asking why Muslims in secular nations do not go vigilante and attempt to inflict punishment in spite of the law there.
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tango92
05-12-2010, 06:57 PM
who is going to carry it out? theres no leadership in the MUSLiM world, noone to blame...
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
who is going to carry it out? theres no leadership in the MUSLiM world, noone to blame...
asslamu alaikum

i understand where your coming from. but maybe we should see what teh schoalrs have to say about this...many punishments were carried out without the prophets permission, one is the case of the blind man...the prophet did not object to it
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cat eyes
05-12-2010, 07:09 PM
prophet mohammad (saw) use to get abused and people use to throw stones at him when they saw him coming with his companions when one of them asked the prophet (saw) why are you just ignoring them, the prophet (saw) said maybe one of them will revert to islam.

So upon hearing this story i think we should not be so strict about talking about punishments for non muslims who do these things. maybe these people have there reasons and have the wrong idea about islam so its our duty to set them straight. imagine if we were to punish every one who mocked the prophet mohammad(saw) people are going to hate islam even more and deem it a barbaric religion and we are going to prove them right...

These are not excuses btw.
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
prophet mohammad (saw) use to get abused and people use to throw stones at him when they saw him coming with his companions when one of them asked the prophet (saw) why are you just ignoring them, the prophet (saw) said maybe one of them will revert to islam.

So upon hearing this story i think we should not be so strict about talking about punishments for non muslims who do these things. maybe these people have there reasons and have the wrong idea about islam so its our duty to set them straight. imagine if we were to punish every one who mocked the prophet mohammad(saw) people are going to hate islam even more and deem it a barbaric religion and we are going to prove them right...

These are not excuses btw.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sometimes chose to forgive those who had insulted him, and sometimes he ordered that they should be executed, if that served a greater purpose. But now his forgiveness is impossible because he is dead, so the execution of the one who insults him remains the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and the one who deserves to be executed cannot be let off, so the punishment must be carried out.

Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/438
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
Originally Posted by cat eyes
prophet mohammad (saw) use to get abused and people use to throw stones at him when they saw him coming with his companions when one of them asked the prophet (saw) why are you just ignoring them, the prophet (saw) said maybe one of them will revert to islam.

So upon hearing this story i think we should not be so strict about talking about punishments for non muslims who do these things. maybe these people have there reasons and have the wrong idea about islam so its our duty to set them straight. imagine if we were to punish every one who mocked the prophet mohammad(saw) people are going to hate islam even more and deem it a barbaric religion and we are going to prove them right...

These are not excuses btw.
what your reffering to is repentance? and giving the non-muslims a chance.

The scholars are agreed that if such a person repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him.

But they differed as to whether his repentance should be accepted in this world and whether that means he is no longer subject to the sentence of execution.

Maalik and Ahmad were of the view that it should not be accepted, and that he should be killed even if he has repented.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809

The idea that somone who mocks the prophet should nto be allowed to repent is based on hadith...


In the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (2683) narrated that Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas said: “On the Day of the Conquest of Makkah, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) granted safety to the people except for four men and two women, and he named them, and Ibn Abi Sarh… As for Ibn Abi Sarh, he hid with ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan, and when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called the people to give their allegiance to him, he brought him to stand before the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said, “O Prophet of Allaah, accept the allegiance of ‘Abd-Allaah.” He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing him, then he accepted his allegiance after the third time. Then he turned to his companions and said: “Was there not among you any smart man who could have got up and killed this person when he saw me refusing to give him my hand and accept his allegiance?” They said, “We do not know what is in your heart, O Messenger of Allaah. Why did you not gesture to us with your eyes?” He said, “It is not befitting for a Prophet to betray a person with a gesture of his eyes.”

(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 2334)
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cat eyes
05-12-2010, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
that fatwa is talking about a muslim gone kufir. its not the same as a non muslim, a non muslim has not received the message yet so how can they get punishments?

prophet mohammad (saw) NEVER ordered the punishment of any non muslim who abused him. this prove still remains today.

and i think on that note this thread should be closed
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
Originally Posted by cat eyes
that fatwa is talking about a muslim gone kufir. its not the same as a non muslim, a non muslim has not received the message yet so how can they get punishments?

prophet mohammad (saw) NEVER ordered the punishment of any non muslim who abused him. this prove still remains today.

and i think on that note this thread should be closed
how can you say such a thing? why do you reject the punishment for mocking the prophet? and you lie about the prophet by denying he punished anyone for this sin?

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sometimes chose to forgive those who had insulted him, and sometimes he ordered that they should be executed, if that served a greater purpose. But now his forgiveness is impossible because he is dead, so the execution of the one who insults him remains the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and the one who deserves to be executed cannot be let off, so the punishment must be carried out.

Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/438
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809


Ibn Taymiyyah says in “Mukhtasar As-Saram Al-Maslool `Ala Shatim Ar-Rasul (Summary of The Drawn Sword Against the One Who Curses the Messenger) Pages 31-33”


Whoever Curses the Prophet Peace and Blessings be Upon him, Muslim or Kafir, Must be Killed.
This is the methodology of the general scholars.
Muhammad Ibn Suhnoon said that:
the scholars are in consensus that the one who curses the Messenger is a Kafir; and whoever doubts his Kufr is a Kafir.

The bottom line: That the Muslim one who curses [The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him] is to be killed without disagreement, and it is the opinion of the methodology of the four Imams as well as other than them; even if he is a Jizya-paying non-Muslim, he is killed as well – according to Malik and the people of Madina; and it is the way of Ahmad and the scholars of Hadith. Ahmad specified it many times.
Hanbal, Abus-Saqr, Al-Khallal, Abdullah, and Abu Talib –said that:
he is to be killed whether he is Muslim or Kafir.
Source: http://www.islamicemirate.com/fiqh-j...%20Prophet.pdf
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cat eyes
05-12-2010, 09:53 PM
i think the thread over all is insensitive to the non muslims on the forum. there is many hadiths where punishments should not be carried out just like the story i had posted above!

It was not the character of the prophet (saw) to go punishing non muslims that quarrelled with him and that is not a lie because i can show you prove.

us laymen cannot say whether a shariah punishment should be carried out or not. this is not in your hands or mine!
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cat eyes
05-12-2010, 10:14 PM
if a muslim has left the fold of islam and now he is abusing the prophet mohammad (saw) then yes there should be punishment this is what Allah is referring to but i am talking about a non muslim who dose not know the first thing about islam. you cannot put these both people in the same category. there is many things that has to be taken in to account even for a non muslim its not that easy to carry out a punishment
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aadil77
05-12-2010, 10:31 PM
bro Quranalim i understand what you're saying, but again these punishments would only apply in a muslim country where they can be carried out by the state, think about it - if a kaffir comes to you tomorrow and says the prophet was 'pervert' astagfirullah would you kill him instantly?
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
Originally Posted by cat eyes
if a muslim has left the fold of islam and now he is abusing the prophet mohammad (saw) then yes there should be punishment this is what Allah is referring to but i am talking about a non muslim who dose not know the first thing about islam. you cannot put these both people in the same category. there is many things that has to be taken in to account even for a non muslim its not that easy to carry out a punishment
you seem to be create your own image of islam, and following what you desire islam to be, rather than what it is


their is a different ruling on people who are insane? but if they are not insane, the schoalrs are clear on this...matter also heard the hadith


With regard to the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (4362) narrated from ‘Ali that a Jewish woman used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him, so a man strangled her until she died, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled that no blood money was due in this case.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809


On the day of the conquest of Mecca, Abdullah ibn Sa'd ibn AbuSarh hid himself with Uthman ibn Affan. He brought him and made him stand before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), and said: Accept the allegiance of Abdullah, Apostle of Allah! He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing him each time, but accepted his allegiance after the third time. Then turning to his companions, he said: Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him? They said: We did not know what you had in your heart, Apostle of Allah! Why did you not give us a signal with your eye? He said: It is not advisable for a Prophet to play deceptive tricks with the eyes. Sunnan Abu Dawud 38:4346
considered sahih by albani.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809
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Salahudeen
05-12-2010, 11:10 PM
How can we carry out the punishment of Allah when our rulers are non Muslim and we're living in their lands. We haven't even got a leader or a system in place to implement shari'a. Forget implementing shari'a in the west, Muslim countries don't even have 100% sharia law, I find it comical when groups call for Islamic Law in the west when in their home countries like Pakistan there's brothels and alcohol being sold. No doubt every Muslim wants to live under sharia but untill there is a proper state we don't have the right to go round inflicting the punishment of Allah upon people.

Every scholar I've heard has said "live according to the laws of the land and do not take the law into your own hands" I've not heard one of them actually promote going round and stoning the adulterer while living in a non islamic country.

If someone mocked the prophet pbuh because all his life he had been fed bad information about the prophet and was none the wiser with regards to his actual personality are you just going to kill this person?

what if later in life he learns the truth about Islam and becomes Muslim, by killing him you take away that possibility.

Are you telling me if some 1 mocked the prophet pbuh infront of you in a non islamic country where there's no shari'a, you'd just kill them ? is that what you're saying? is that what you're promoting here? I'm abit unclear about what you're trying to get at. you're saying implement the punishment of Allah but you've jumped 2 steps down the road, the first step was Islamic state and actual shari'a law .

focus on them things before you start going round inflicting people who are non the wiser with sharia punishments.
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
Originally Posted by aadil77
bro Quranalim i understand what you're saying, but again these punishments would only apply in a muslim country where they can be carried out by the state, think about it - if a kaffir comes to you tomorrow and says the prophet was 'pervert' astagfirullah would you kill him instantly?
brother/sister, you may view such a thign as extreme (outside the fold of islam) and wrong. but the hadith itself metions what you are talking about.

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas: A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace be upon him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace be upon him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace be upon him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her. Thereupon the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.[Sunnan Abu Dawud 38:4348, Sunnan Abu Dawud 38:4361]
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
Originally Posted by squiggle
How can we carry out the punishment of Allah when our rulers are non Muslim and we're living in their lands. We haven't even got a leader or a system in place to implement shari'a. Forget implementing shari'a in the west, Muslim countries don't even have 100% sharia law, I find it comical when groups call for Islamic Law in the west when in their home countries like Pakistan there's brothels and alcohol being sold. No doubt every Muslim wants to live under sharia but untill there is a proper state we don't have the right to go round inflicting the punishment of Allah upon people.

Every scholar I've heard has said "live according to the laws of the land and do not take the law into your own hands" I've not heard one of them actually promote going round and stoning the adulterer while living in a non islamic country.

If someone mocked the prophet pbuh because all his life he had been fed bad information about the prophet and was none the wiser with regards to his actual personality are you just going to kill this person?

what if later in life he learns the truth about Islam and becomes Muslim, by killing him you take away that possibility.

Are you telling me if some 1 mocked the prophet pbuh infront of you in a non islamic country where there's no shari'a, you'd just kill them ? is that what you're saying? is that what you're promoting here? I'm abit unclear about what you're trying to get at. you're saying implement the punishment of Allah but you've jumped 2 steps down the road, the first step was Islamic state and actual shari'a law .

focus on them things before you start going round inflicting people who are non the wiser with sharia punishments.
see my previous comment. also, i urge you to read this fatwa

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 11:19 PM
thier are also many many more hadith liek the above i mentioned
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Salahudeen
05-12-2010, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
see my previous comment. also, i urge you to read this fatwa

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809


I read it, and where does it say Muslim's who are not living under shari'a should carry out these punishments? I see the fatwa, and the sheikh is out lining the shari punishment for the 1 who mocks the prophet pbuh. where does he say Muslim's should do this themselves living in non Muslim lands where there's no sharia?

as far as I understood it that entire article was based upon the assumption you're living under sharia law. I didn't see any mention of those who live in non muslim lands where there's no sharia.
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Salahudeen
05-12-2010, 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
thier are also many many more hadith liek the above i mentioned
You're quoting hadith but all the hadith are in the time of the prophet pbuh when there was an Islamic state and sharia was being implemented. show me a hadith that shows Muslim's carrying out the punishment of Allah whilst living in a non Muslim land under kuffar rulers. That will hold weight as that would be similar to our situation. But the hadith you're quoting were at the time of the Islamic state under sharia law.

so show me where the punishment of Allah was carried out under a non muslim ruler in a foreign land against the laws of that country and the prophet pbuh gave approval. I'm interested to know if such a hadith exists.
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Salahudeen
05-12-2010, 11:29 PM
Are you telling me if some 1 mocked the prophet pbuh infront of you in a non islamic country where there's no shari'a, you'd just kill them ? is that what you're saying? is that what you're promoting here? I'm abit unclear about what you're trying to get at.

well is the above what you're saying?? I actually knew a boy at school who used to mock the prophet pbuh, I befriended him and told him the truth regarding the prophet pbuh and over time his heart softened and he accepted Islam. I dread to think what would've happened if he met you, maybe he would be lying in a grave somewhere allah hu alam.
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
Originally Posted by squiggle
I read it, and where does it say Muslim's who are not living under shari'a should carry out these punishments? I see the fatwa, and the sheikh is out lining the shari punishment for the 1 who mocks the prophet pbuh. where does he say Muslim's should do this themselves living in non Muslim lands where there's no sharia?

as far as I understood it that entire article was based upon the assumption you're living under sharia law. I didn't see any mention of those who live in non muslim lands where there's no sharia.
i am gettign the feeling that you think islam is against punishing somone who mocks the prophet? without a leader.


i have already mentioned several hadith where people excuted those who mocked the prophet instantly without even seeking the permission of anyone. they took it in their own hands to carry out this act and became vigalantes. in many other cases this would be forbidden, but the hadith prove that this case is an exception

the fair justice is allah's justice, not the ones in non-muslim land...although some non-muslim land follow parts of shariah
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
Originally Posted by squiggle
You're quoting hadith but all the hadith are in the time of the prophet pbuh when there was an Islamic state and sharia was being implemented. show me a hadith that shows Muslim's carrying out the punishment of Allah whilst living in a non Muslim land under kuffar rulers. That will hold weight as that would be similar to our situation. But the hadith you're quoting were at the time of the Islamic state under sharia law.

so show me where the punishment of Allah was carried out under a non muslim ruler in a foreign land against the laws of that country and the prophet pbuh gave approval. I'm interested to know if such a hadith exists.
here are hadith relating to executions of those who mocked the prophet and sided with enemies

Sunnan Abu Dawud 38:4348, Sunnan Abu Dawud 38:4361, Sunan AbuDawud 2686, .Sahih al-Bukhari 3:45:687, .Sahih al-Bukhari 3:45:687, .Sahih al-Bukhari 3:45:687, Sahih al-Bukhari 5:59:370, Sahih al-Bukhari 5:59:371, Sunnan Abu Dawud 38:4346, Sahih al-Bukhari 5:59:582, Sunnan Abu Dawud 14:2678

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace be upon him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.
Abu Dawud 38:4349

Brother, the above hadith indicates that the punishment was carried out by a vigilante on a non-muslim "jew"
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quranalim
05-12-2010, 11:45 PM
Furthermoe brother, i would like to tell you that their will be many instances when even muslim countries will nto implement the shariah, and their is no choice but to take things in your own hands

Farag Foda was a egyptia who use to mock Muhammad (saw), yet egypt government did nothing. and was assisinated by muslims

An Al-Azhar University scholar, Mohammed al-Ghazali, a witness before the court, declared it was not wrong to kill a foe of Islam. Al-Ghazali said:

"The killing of Farag Foda was in fact the implementation of the punishment against an apostate which the imam (the Islamic leader) has failed to implement (undertake)."
i hope you understand the cases regardign taking matters to your own hands. these days even muslim countries dont follow shariah.
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Billal-A
05-13-2010, 12:00 AM
Assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

Akhi "quranalim" without a doubt the rulings are clear regarding an individual be it Muslim or non-Muslim who slanders and speaks ill of the Prophet pbuh that he should be killed. Alhamdulillah. But to take that hadd punishments legislated in sharee'ah are to be applied in lands of kufr is not from among the scholarly opinions we have found. You have, alhamdulillah quoted from the very beneficial site Islam Q&A in referring to the ahaadeeth proving this however failed to address the issue of the following:

1. Who applies the hadd punishment?
2. What about when the act is carried out in a land that is not governed by sharee'ah?

I believe the following link from the same website addresses adequately both of these points alhamdulillah.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/12461

If a person commits a crime which deserves a hadd punishment in a land that is not ruled according to that which Allaah has revealed, what is to be done?

If a Muslim commits a crime which deserves a hadd punishment, such as zina (adultery), and he wants to purify himself by having the hadd punishment carried out on him, but his government does not rule according to that which Allaah has revealed, what should he do? If he asks some of his relatives or friends to carry out the hadd punishment on him, is that correct, and will his sins be forgiven?.


Praise be to Allaah.

The scholars are unanimously agreed that the hadd punishment can only be carried out by the imam (Islamic ruler) or his deputy. This is in the people’s interests and is for the protection of their soul, their wealth and their honour. The imam is able to carry it out because of the power and authority he has, which make the people obey him, and because no one can accuse the imam of being biased or negligent in carrying out the hadd punishments. Thus the imam is able to carry out the hudood punishments in the proper manner so that the shar’i goals will certainly be achieved.

Al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 17/145.

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 7/21:

The hadd punishments can only be carried out by a Muslim ruler or one who takes the place of the ruler. It is not permissible for individual Muslims to carry out the hadd punishments because of the chaos and fitnah (tribulation) to which that will lead.”

It also says (21/5-6):

No one can carry out the hadd punishments except the Muslim ruler or his deputy, in order to maintain order and prevent anyone from transgressing against others, and to protect against injustice. And the sinner has to pray for forgiveness and repent to Allaah and do a lot of good deeds. If he is sincere in his repentance towards Allaah, Allaah will accept his repentance and forgive Him by His grace and kindness. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who invoke not any other ilaah (god) along with Allaah, nor kill such person as Allaah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment.

69. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace;

70. Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds; for those, Allaah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allaah is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Furqaan 25:67-70]

“And verily, I am indeed forgiving to him who repents, believes (in My Oneness, and associates none in worship with Me) and does righteous good deeds, and then remains constant in doing them (till his death)”

[Ta-Ha 20:82]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Islam erases whatever came before it, and repentance erases whatever came before it.”.
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Billal-A
05-13-2010, 12:36 AM
Assalaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

After having addressed the above cited issues using scholarly opinion, I just wanted to briefly speak about some of the issues I felt concerned about during the review of this post.

Firstly, may Allaah accept the efforts of all our Muslim brothers and sisters who do not and will not tolerate abuse towards our Noble Messenger Muhammad sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, may Allaah allow you all to be forgiven for your gheerah for the beloved status of our dear Nabi may Allaah give him a praised platform ameen.

That being said we need to understand a few key issues:

1. The deen is always about balance and prioritising - When we commit to Islaam we do it in a way that is both obligatory and suitable for a healthy middle path, not going into extremes, nor becoming too lax or lenient. The sharee'ah is the threshold for justice and mercy, as well as the standard by which we are moderate. Whatever it commands is to be followed and whatever it prohibits is to be left. Going beyond the limits of the sharee'ah is extremism and falling short of its obligations is equally extreme.

- Why is it that many times we will see specific controversial issues being discussed like this and so many of us are caught up in it but when it comes to matters that are even greater they are neglected? Why is it that we are not so outspoken regarding shirk and bid'ah prevalent amongst our relatives, friends and local communities? Look at drug abuse, crimes, zina, music amongst the Muslims today, why are we not at the forefront of calling them to guidance and speaking in condemnation of these things that directly affect our very living and Islamic obligations? Whenever we call to good we call to it completely and whenever we forbid from evil we do so condemning every evil and every vice we see.

"O you who have believed, enter into Islaam completely [and perfectly] and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy." [Al-Baqarah: 208]

2. We always do what is in our capabilities and there is no blame upon us for something not within our realms of action. Rasulullah sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam advised us so beautifully that whenever we see a munkar we stop it with our limbs, if this is too much, then with speech and if not able to, then to think of it as vice in our hearts and that this is the lowest level of eemaan.

Allaah has said: "Allaah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity." [Al-Baqarah: 286]

The point here is what is our responsibility when dealing with such a scenario where various acts are done and the hadd ruling and prescribed punishments are not being implemented? Our role is simple yet we over complicate it, we do whatever we can in our capacity with knowledge, foresight and wisdom. We do not recline from Qur'an and Sunnah yet we do not go beyond our limits.

I think the following statement explains our stance here:

"If a Muslim hears a Christian or anyone else defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) he has to denounce him in strong terms. It is permissible to insult that person because he is the one who started it. How can we not stand up the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)? It is also obligatory to report him to the authorities who can carry out the punishment on him. If there is no one who can carry out the hadd punishment of Allaah and stand up for the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) then the Muslim has to do whatever he can, so long as that will not lead to further mischief and harm against other people. But if a Muslim hears a kaafir defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he keeps quiet and does not respond for fear that this person may then defame him even more, this is mistaken thinking. With regard to the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allaah, lest they insult Allaah wrongfully without knowledge”

[al-An’aam 6:108],

this does not apply in cases where they defame Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) first. Rather what is meant is that it is forbidden to insult the gods of the mushrikeen first, lest they insult Allaah out of ignorance and enmity on their part. But if they insult Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) first, then we must respond and punish them so as deter them from their kufr and enmity. If we leave the kuffaar and atheists to say whatever they want without denouncing it or punishing them, great mischief will result, which is something that these kuffaar love. No attention should be paid to the one who says that insulting or responding to insults will make him more stubborn. The Muslim has to have a sense of protective jealousy and get angry for the sake of Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whoever hears the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) being insulted and does not feel any protective jealousy or get angry is not a true believer – we seek refuge with Allaah from humility, kufr and obeying the Shaytaan. And Allaah knows best."

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak, Majallat al-Da’wah, Muharram, issue no. 1933.
Reply

Billal-A
05-13-2010, 12:46 AM
Some points to also consider regarding the point of some not seeking permission of Rasulullah sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam before doing the act:

1. The incident concerning Jundub radhiallaahu anhu and the magician: As we know, Magic [not tricks but proper sorcery] is kufr al akbar and takes a person outside of Islaam. A person known among the people would remove his head and place it back via sorcery and became popular by it. Jundub was told about this man and attended one of his public events. When the man removed his head and placed it back, Jundub got up and cut his head clean off saying "place your head back now if you are able!". Jundub was arrested and the governor wrote to Caliph Uthmaan [radhiallahu anhu] concerning the matter. Uthmaan [ra] replied saying that what Jundub did was the hadd for a magician and was the correct punishment for such a person but Jundub's executing the hadd without permission from the ruler was INCORRECT.

2. The disagreement between 'Ali [radhiallaahu anhu] and Mu'aawiyah [radhiallaahu anhu] was regarding the executors of Uthmaan [ra]. Mu'aawiyah and those who agreed with him wanted to bring the killers of Uthmaan to justice before Caliphate was established to 'Ali. 'Ali disagreed with this holding that the issue of dealing with the killers of Uthmaan required jurisdiction, court and systematic application of the punishment, which mandates that the caliphate be established first. We know from the narrations concerning this that 'Ali was of the correct opinion [May Allaah reward Mu'awiyah for his ijtihaad and zeal to bring the oppressors to justice, ameen]. Point here is: 'Ali was right, in order to execute the killers it needed to be done after establishing caliphate and NOT OUTSIDE OF IT.

I hope things are clear for everyone, Insha'Allaah.

:s
Reply

cat eyes
05-13-2010, 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by quranalim
i am gettign the feeling that you think islam is against punishing somone who mocks the prophet? without a leader.


i have already mentioned several hadith where people excuted those who mocked the prophet instantly without even seeking the permission of anyone. they took it in their own hands to carry out this act and became vigalantes. in many other cases this would be forbidden, but the hadith prove that this case is an exception

the fair justice is allah's justice, not the ones in non-muslim land...although some non-muslim land follow parts of shariah
:sl:i am not painting my own picture of what i want islam to BE! i take my fatwas from reliable scholars and i at least try to understand them not like you!

Astaghfirullah So you are basically saying that you would go up and kill a kafir person in a kafir land if you

bumped in to a silly teenager and he started calling our beloved prophet (saw) what ever names so you

would not give him at least a chance to give him some type of dawah?? i cant believe what im reading really. i know this is not the islam i reverted to anyway. i don't know what islam you made for yourself

we cannot carry out punishments by ourselves. this is clearly murder. we cant and MUST not take the law into our own hands no matter what.

People deserve chances. the prophet mohammad (saw) was always ready to give dawah even to the most angry person

It depends on so some many things this why we cannot be carrying out crimes. this is best left in the hands of knowledgble scholars in shariah state

We are no longer living in the time of the prophet (saw) :wa:
Reply

Salahudeen
05-13-2010, 12:21 PM
akhi bilal's post dealt with the issue :) a fatwa from the same site saying it's not permissable for anyone to carry out punishments of Allah except for the leader and his general.
Reply

أبو سليمان عمر
05-13-2010, 12:55 PM
akhi quranalim you said somthing real nice early lets see what scholars have to say about it and as far as i know that it is not premissable to carry out a punishment yourself if you live in a muslim country let alone a kufar country
Reply

DuncG
05-13-2010, 12:58 PM
Quranalim,

Given that it is asserted that the punishment for insulting the Prophet is death, can you describe the reasoning that leads to the conclusion that this punishment is just?

As far as I can see, justice is the apportioning of punishment that is a fair reflection of the severity of the crime. So, to warrant the death penalty you would have to do something at least as severe as murder. (Perhaps you don't agree with this description of justice, in which case I'd like to hear your definition and how it relates to this situation.) I cannot, at present, see how an insult could justifiably warrant the punishment of death - killing generates far more suffering than insult or mockery does. There is a saying, after all, that goes "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me". Essentially, anything spoken can never be as bad as physical violence, including killing.

It appears that you disagree with this reasoning, so I'd very much like to know how you reached the conclusion that death is a just punishment for mockery. Thanks in advance for any response you can give.
Reply

Billal-A
05-13-2010, 01:05 PM
Assalamu alaykum,

@cats eyes:

I think theres two extremes being played out here. The first extreme is with people assuming that Sharee'ah allows them to implement hadd punishments without the need for an Islamic state/rulership and permission from it and the second extreme being the "turn the cheek" approach.

Islaam in these issues is comprised of two delicate balances:

1. The balance between allegiance to Allaah and his messenger and mercy and forgiveness - What I mean by this is that there is always a limit to what can be forgiven and pardoned from the actions of mankind. Not everything was overlooked by the Prophet [saws] and nor was he strict on everything. The Prophet [saws] was amazing in both his unmeasurable compassion to others but also in his stance against all things evil and abominable.

- Some examples of the Prophet [saws] reprimanding/condemning: a person who was wearing a gold bracelet, the Prophet [saws] saw it and his face changed colour and he did not speak to the person until they had disposed of it; when a Muhaajir and Ansaari got into an argument, they both called out "O Muhaajiroon, come!" and "O Ansaar, come!" and the Prophet [saws] became enraged by it and chastised them; a group of people came to swear allegiance to the Prophet [saws], he accepted all of them but one and said he [saws] would not accept the pledge until the man removes the amulet he is wearing; the incident of a Sahaabi in battle executing a Jewish man who was about to be killed but started proclaiming the shahaadah, the Sahaabi believed he was being insincere due to being shown the sword but Rasulullah [saws] said: "Did you open up his heart?" and then looked to the heavens and said "I am free from what he has done" thrice; when his [saws] daughter was attacked and had a miscarriage also dying from the wound, he [saws] ordered all the people involved to be burnt alive [then told its only Allaah who burns by Fire] later ordering execution by the sword; when the Prophet [saws] was praying the kuffaar threw camels intestines on his back and he made du'aa against all of the men involved in severe words.

- Some examples of mercy: the man who was urinating in the Masjid, the Prophet [saws] waited for him to come and be seated and nicely advised of the sanctity of the masjid which moved the man to tears; a man came and started choking the Prophet [saws], leaving a mark on his neck asking for wealth, the Prophet [saws] gave it with a smile!; Taa'if [we all know how amazing that was]; leaving the man who called him [saws] unjust due to the implications of killing him: "Muhammad kills his companions".


2. Balance between da'wah and standing up for what we believe in - Some things are better left not discussed because perchance the ignorant ones may not understand it and it may confuse or distance them from accepting Islaam. Just like with the companions, the Qur'aan was revealed in piecemeal in order "strengthen their hearts thereby" and we should also evaluate the person we give da'wah to in order to advise them with wisdom and what would be beneficial for thier understanding of Islaam [eg talking about status of Jesus and Mary in Islam, to a person who is an ardent Christian etc].

- On the other hand, we cannot dilute something simply because of this: ie somebody asks us regarding zinaa and its place in Islaam, we cannot say "dont worry about it" or "its fine" in an attempt to leave it till later. Islaam has no small print if someone asks about Islamic position on music, clubbing, dress code, Jihaad, etc we always answer based on the Qur'aan and sunnah with wisdom. So many times we hear of people who were not advised of certain issues and then came to deen and were disparaged by it. We cannot shy away from dealing with certain questions in the name of "da'wah".

A beautiful quote:

"We should strive to call these people, for although we look at them through a lens of hatred and resentment, we also look at them with compassion, for soon they will die and will be among the people of Hell, if they die in this state; so we should call them to Islam and salvation, out of mercy and compassion towards them."
[Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al Munajjid, Islam Q&A]

Good sources to take from on these issues:

- "how to get a shahaadah in 10 minutes" (audio): Ustaad Kamal al Makki
- "The Prophets Method in Correcting Mistakes" (e-book): Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al Munajjid
- "Advice of the Callers to Allah" (e-book): "Shaykh Abdullaah ibn Abdul-Aziz ibn Baaz


May Allaah assist in our efforts ameen.
Reply

aamirsaab
05-13-2010, 01:19 PM
The real disgrace is the way our people have turned out. Forget the drawings for a moment and have a gander at muslims as a collective. Especially our homecountries that are filled with unfathomable evil.

Noone wants to get gung-ho about our plentiful corrupt politicians, but the artist of a drawing of the prophet, yeah we'll kick his ass!

Bigger fish to fry guys.
Reply

cat eyes
05-13-2010, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Billal-A
Assalamu alaykum,

@cats eyes:

I think theres two extremes being played out here. The first extreme is with people assuming that Sharee'ah allows them to implement hadd punishments without the need for an Islamic state/rulership and permission from it and the second extreme being the "turn the cheek" approach.

Islaam in these issues is comprised of two delicate balances:

1. The balance between allegiance to Allaah and his messenger and mercy and forgiveness - What I mean by this is that there is always a limit to what can be forgiven and pardoned from the actions of mankind. Not everything was overlooked by the Prophet [saws] and nor was he strict on everything. The Prophet [saws] was amazing in both his unmeasurable compassion to others but also in his stance against all things evil and abominable.

- Some examples of the Prophet [saws] reprimanding/condemning: a person who was wearing a gold bracelet, the Prophet [saws] saw it and his face changed colour and he did not speak to the person until they had disposed of it; when a Muhaajir and Ansaari got into an argument, they both called out "O Muhaajiroon, come!" and "O Ansaar, come!" and the Prophet [saws] became enraged by it and chastised them; a group of people came to swear allegiance to the Prophet [saws], he accepted all of them but one and said he [saws] would not accept the pledge until the man removes the amulet he is wearing; the incident of a Sahaabi in battle executing a Jewish man who was about to be killed but started proclaiming the shahaadah, the Sahaabi believed he was being insincere due to being shown the sword but Rasulullah [saws] said: "Did you open up his heart?" and then looked to the heavens and said "I am free from what he has done" thrice; when his [saws] daughter was attacked and had a miscarriage also dying from the wound, he [saws] ordered all the people involved to be burnt alive [then told its only Allaah who burns by Fire] later ordering execution by the sword; when the Prophet [saws] was praying the kuffaar threw camels intestines on his back and he made du'aa against all of the men involved in severe words.

- Some examples of mercy: the man who was urinating in the Masjid, the Prophet [saws] waited for him to come and be seated and nicely advised of the sanctity of the masjid which moved the man to tears; a man came and started choking the Prophet [saws], leaving a mark on his neck asking for wealth, the Prophet [saws] gave it with a smile!; Taa'if [we all know how amazing that was]; leaving the man who called him [saws] unjust due to the implications of killing him: "Muhammad kills his companions".


2. Balance between da'wah and standing up for what we believe in - Some things are better left not discussed because perchance the ignorant ones may not understand it and it may confuse or distance them from accepting Islaam. Just like with the companions, the Qur'aan was revealed in piecemeal in order "strengthen their hearts thereby" and we should also evaluate the person we give da'wah to in order to advise them with wisdom and what would be beneficial for thier understanding of Islaam [eg talking about status of Jesus and Mary in Islam, to a person who is an ardent Christian etc].

- On the other hand, we cannot dilute something simply because of this: ie somebody asks us regarding zinaa and its place in Islaam, we cannot say "dont worry about it" or "its fine" in an attempt to leave it till later. Islaam has no small print if someone asks about Islamic position on music, clubbing, dress code, Jihaad, etc we always answer based on the Qur'aan and sunnah with wisdom. So many times we hear of people who were not advised of certain issues and then came to deen and were disparaged by it. We cannot shy away from dealing with certain questions in the name of "da'wah".

A beautiful quote:

"We should strive to call these people, for although we look at them through a lens of hatred and resentment, we also look at them with compassion, for soon they will die and will be among the people of Hell, if they die in this state; so we should call them to Islam and salvation, out of mercy and compassion towards them."
[Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al Munajjid, Islam Q&A]

Good sources to take from on these issues:

- "how to get a shahaadah in 10 minutes" (audio): Ustaad Kamal al Makki
- "The Prophets Method in Correcting Mistakes" (e-book): Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al Munajjid
- "Advice of the Callers to Allah" (e-book): "Shaykh Abdullaah ibn Abdul-Aziz ibn Baaz


May Allaah assist in our efforts ameen.
The only extreme is he believes we can take shariah in to our own dangerous hands! where did i say that no punishment should not be carried out?... it should be but according to shariah only.
There is so many things even then that has to be taken in to account for example that teacher in saudi who was wrongly accused for mocking the prophet (saw) by calling a teddy after him and they threw that poor woman in prison but she was wrongly accused. what the hell she must think of islam now huh?? that people are so quick in the muslim world to jump to murder. can you give me any answer for this? was this right? why did not any one go up to her and say to her '' you know its wrong to call a teddy after the prophet (saw)'' but nobody had the decency to tell her. so tell me who is being extreme here? im certainly not being extreme.

we already have black sheep muslims blowing up non muslims. is there a punishment for these assholes huh??? committing murder in the name of islam.

Why dont we look at our own selves. we need dawah i think more then anyone because it makes me so hell angry and sad and whole load of emotions to see the ummah the way it is
Reply

Billal-A
05-13-2010, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
The only extreme is he believes we can take shariah in to our own dangerous hands! where did i say that no punishment should not be carried out?... it should be but according to shariah only.
There is so many things even then that has to be taken in to account for example that teacher in saudi who was wrongly accused for mocking the prophet (saw) by calling a teddy after him and they threw that poor woman in prison but she was wrongly accused. what the hell she must think of islam now huh?? that people are so quick in the muslim world to jump to murder. can you give me any answer for this? was this right? why did not any one go up to her and say to her '' you know its wrong to call a teddy after the prophet (saw)'' but nobody had the decency to tell her. so tell me who is being extreme here? im certainly not being extreme.

we already have black sheep muslims blowing up non muslims. is there a punishment for these assholes huh??? committing murder in the name of islam.

Why dont we look at our own selves. we need dawah i think more then anyone because it makes me so hell angry and sad and whole load of emotions to see the ummah the way it is

Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullaah,

Well unfortunately we are not talking about Muslims actions as we know they always fall short. Rather we are discussing the remedy and that is to follow Islaam in the Middle Path. I never directed anything to you and never meant to regarding sharee'ah just talking about the two general extremes we see.

As far as what you have said is concerned:

1. Its haraam to accuse without proof and questioning - so the case of the woman who named the teddy bear Muhammad, needed to be asked what she intended by it and also the reasoning for it cant only be "she done this" without asking the individual. There is plenty of basis of this: one example being Daawood alayhis salaam who judged in a case without looking into both sides of the story, he made a sajdah of tawbah as felt guilty of a severe injustice.

2. We cant let our emotions rule our mind - there is no need to use foul language regarding those who are STILL our brothers and sisters in the deen. Committing suicide bombings does not take you outside the fold of Islaam, nor does killing innocent people, although a grave sin. Rather than abusing them we should be making dua for their guidance and condemning the act. A part of our aqeedah is to have love for those who are under the kalimah of Islaam, and hating those who are not.

3. Anyone who kills an innocent person is indeed wrong and we see the aayah for those who kill ONE innocent person is as though they have killed all of mankind. As long as those non-Muslims are innocent [ie non combatants, elderly, women and children etc] then their blood is inviolable. On the other hand we cant claim everyone is innocent, eg soldiers in Iraaq and Afghanistan.

4. Are we as vocal about the war on Iraaq, Afghanistan and the constant evil oppression of Palestine. To this day there have been numerous lives taken, women and children massacred, which is the REASON behind so many suicide attacks etc even being carried out. So lets look at the reasons behind the problems in order to deal with it from the root.

5. The ummah is the way it is because of many reasons: lack of understanding of Islaam, neglecting tawheed and the sunnah, neglecting Jihaad, deeply involved in sins. So its not just those bombers who are causing so many issues, its the negligence of the ummah as a whole. Abu Bakr did advise us to never let go of Jihaad and in so many ways its true.

May Allaah guide us all. Ameen.
Reply

cat eyes
05-13-2010, 04:08 PM
so your telling me i don't have a right to be angry that black sheep muslims are blowing up innocent women and you still have the nerve to call these people muslims. muslims don't go around killing people

and children? maybe if i did not let my emotions get the better of me i would not be human id be stone cold


hearted evil person. so what your asking me to do is impossible because i cannot sit back and watch my own

brothers and sisters being wrongly harrassed and abused on the streets because of one black sheep we all bloody have to suffer...

If some one kills a human its like he has killed the whole of humanity.

because of these so called muslims thousands maybe you can say millions have chosen not to revert to islam because they don't want to be called a terrorist. that is millions of people who will not be saved from the helfire and you expect me not to let my emotions take over and not to lose sleep over it?

maybe when my sister or brother joins you can ask her why she wont revert and then maybe you will feel the anger i feel

im not saying anymore on the matter.

salaam
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-13-2010, 04:22 PM
:sl:

Sis just to say something about why so many people do not revert to Islam because of the "so called Muslims." Is it really an excuse? On the other side you will have people reverting regardless of what they see or is shown because for one their hearts are sincere and that Allah guides whomever He Wills and that's the main thing. Yes we have a job to tell others about Islam, inviting them in ways that are better but even then we don't guide them, Allah does. There are loads of people who regardless of seeing or knowing the negativity portrayed about Islam or Muslims for that matter, use their brains and inquire about it. We don't know their hearts so really we can't say anything but from what I've noticed the ones that are truly sincere will embrace no matter what. That's just how I see it. Allahu Alam if it's right.
Reply

cat eyes
05-13-2010, 04:31 PM
deleted...........................
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quranalim
05-13-2010, 04:36 PM
Of course it would be better to have a muslim leader....and a just ruler

However....The people who claim that you can only punish somone i.e a "apostate" ONLY with the permission of a leader are only making excuses. their are already many hadiith where the sahaba took it into their own hands to carry out a punishment, without the permission of an imam or the prophet.

"He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. [Sahih Bukhari 9:84:58]

Once Muadh paid a visit to Abu Musa and saw a chained man. Muadh asked, "What is this?" Abu Musa said, "(He was) a Jew who embraced Islam and has now turned apostate." Muadh said, "I will surely chop off his neck!" [Bukhari 5:59:632]
in regards to carrying out a punishment in non-muslim land, their is a difference however.

But if no-one even implements the shariah or accepts it....but their is little choice but to take thigns into your own hands.

Muhammad al Ghazali said about farag Foda (who used to write satire about the prophet)
"The killing of Farag Foda was in fact the implementation of the punishment against an apostate which the imam (the Islamic leader) has failed to implement (undertake)."
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-13-2010, 04:37 PM
Sis, no offense but do you have this habit of putting words in peoples mouth? I like to avoid arguing with other Muslims but seriously its annoying! I never said your sister is making up excuses, I'm just telling you how I see it. I mentioned three things, those who inquire about it and not let things or reasons get in their way or that they are truly sincere and that at the end of the day Allah Guides. I made no mention of your sister nor commented on it so please refrain. JazakAllah Khair :D

BTW, I'm only talking about that bit in your post nothing else so please don't drag it out elsewhere :)
Reply

quranalim
05-13-2010, 05:01 PM
The fact of the matter is......we muslims must respond and react to those who mock the prophet those who say"its better not to react" and be tolerant. they are nto even true muslims.

But if they insult Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) first, then we must respond and punish them so as deter them from their kufr and enmity. If we leave the kuffaar and atheists to say whatever they want without denouncing it or punishing them, great mischief will result, which is something that these kuffaar love. No attention should be paid to the one who says that insulting or responding to insults will make him more stubborn. The Muslim has to have a sense of protective jealousy and get angry for the sake of Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whoever hears the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) being insulted and does not feel any protective jealousy or get angry is not a true believer – we seek refuge with Allaah from humility, kufr and obeying the Shaytaan. And Allaah knows best."

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak, Majallat al-Da’wah, Muharram, issue no. 1933.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-13-2010, 05:08 PM
:sl:

It says whoever doesn't have a sense of protective jealousy or basically doesn't feel anything when something is said against RasulAllah sallallahu alayhi wassalam isn't a true Muslim. So technically you're saying if I don't go and attack a non Muslim I'm not Muslim or a real one. Well jee thanks dude!

I feel plenty thank you very much :)
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Abdul Wahid
05-13-2010, 05:13 PM
I think everything has been discussed.

Time to lock the thread perhaps.
Reply

Asiyah3
05-13-2010, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
bro Quranalim i understand what you're saying, but again these punishments would only apply in a muslim country where they can be carried out by the state
Originally Posted by squiggle
How can we carry out the punishment of Allah when our rulers are non Muslim and we're living in their lands. We haven't even got a leader or a system in place to implement shari'a. Forget implementing shari'a in the west, Muslim countries don't even have 100% sharia law, I find it comical when groups call for Islamic Law in the west when in their home countries like Pakistan there's brothels and alcohol being sold. No doubt every Muslim wants to live under sharia but untill there is a proper state we don't have the right to go round inflicting the punishment of Allah upon people.

Every scholar I've heard has said "live according to the laws of the land and do not take the law into your own hands" I've not heard one of them actually promote going round and stoning the adulterer while living in a non islamic country.

If someone mocked the prophet pbuh because all his life he had been fed bad information about the prophet and was none the wiser with regards to his actual personality are you just going to kill this person?

what if later in life he learns the truth about Islam and becomes Muslim, by killing him you take away that possibility.

Are you telling me if some 1 mocked the prophet pbuh infront of you in a non islamic country where there's no shari'a, you'd just kill them ? is that what you're saying? is that what you're promoting here? I'm abit unclear about what you're trying to get at. you're saying implement the punishment of Allah but you've jumped 2 steps down the road, the first step was Islamic state and actual shari'a law .

focus on them things before you start going round inflicting people who are non the wiser with sharia punishments.
I couldn't agree more with these posts. I think this thread should be closed and deleted.
Reply

Billal-A
05-13-2010, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
so your telling me i don't have a right to be angry that black sheep muslims are blowing up innocent women and you still have the nerve to call these people muslims. muslims don't go around killing people

and children? maybe if i did not let my emotions get the better of me i would not be human id be stone cold


hearted evil person. so what your asking me to do is impossible because i cannot sit back and watch my own

brothers and sisters being wrongly harrassed and abused on the streets because of one black sheep we all bloody have to suffer...

If some one kills a human its like he has killed the whole of humanity.

because of these so called muslims thousands maybe you can say millions have chosen not to revert to islam because they don't want to be called a terrorist. that is millions of people who will not be saved from the helfire and you expect me not to let my emotions take over and not to lose sleep over it?

maybe when my sister or brother joins you can ask her why she wont revert and then maybe you will feel the anger i feel

im not saying anymore on the matter.

salaam
Assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

I advise you of the following verses:

"Not upon you, [O Muhammad], is [responsibility for] their guidance, but Allaah guides whom He wills. And whatever good you [believers] spend is for yourselves, and you do not spend except seeking the countenance of Allaah." [2: 272]

- this Ayah was revealed concerning Abu Talib, the uncle of the Prophet. He used to protect the Prophet, support him and stand by him. He loved the Prophet dearly, but this love was a natural love of kinship, not a love that was born of the fact that he was the Messenger of Allah . When he was on his deathbed, the Messenger of Allah called him to Faith and to enter Islam, but he remained a follower of disbelief.

"And most of the people, although you strive [for it], are not believers." [12: 103]

"Indeed, those who disbelieve – it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them – they will not believe. Allaah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment." [2: 6-7]

"Perhaps, you would kill yourself in grief, over their footsteps, because they believe not in this narration" [18: 6]

"So destroy not yourself in sorrow for them." [35:8]

"And grieve not over them." [16:127]

"It may be that you are going to kill yourself with grief, that they do not become believers." [26:3]

`Do not feel sorry for them, just convey the Message of Allah to them. Whoever goes the right way, then he goes the right way only for the benefit of himself. And whoever goes astray, then he strays at his own loss, so do not destroy yourself in sorrow for them.' [Tafseer ibn Katheer]

- Allaah knows whether they will accept Islaam or not. So what we gauge from this is that we give da'wah as best we can and inform the non-Muslims of this deen, but it lies with Allaah, only Allaah guides them to accepting the deen.

My advice to you is dont be so emotional about matters that are outside your control we dont play God with who is guided and why they are or are not guided. Allaah punishes and is justified in it. It is not something new that has been employed against Muslims. Since the dawn of time there has always been mischief and slanders against the Muslims. All the Prophets were slandered, so this is not new now. Propaganda is the spearhead of the kuffaar against Muslims. That will always remain.

As for what we are required to do. We are to show Islaam in its true light, based on the Qur'aan and sunnah as best we can and invite people to the true deen. We must always emphasise that we cannot look at Muslims and decide the truth because we Muslims are involved in mass sin and are not representing our deen well enough. So we call to the beauty of Islaam.

As Light of heaven mentioned, people are accepting Islaam more than ever now. 9/11 produced the largest negative propaganda campaign against Muslims, yet there were more reversions after 9/11 than before it in the US. Why? Because Allaah guides whom he wills. No matter what happens the Qur'aan and Sunnah, is preserved and NO MAN CAN BLAME ANYONE ELSE FOR FAILING IN ACCEPTING ISLAAM.

Lets please not pick on one type of extreme: yes there are some people who do target civilians using Islaam as the reason so we refute and condemn that, but we dont make out as though thats the Kryptonite of the Muslim world, look at how much Shirk the Muslim world is involved in. Look at how many so called "Muslims" do in terms of washing down the principles in religion, imitating the non-Muslims, saying Islaam needs a re-intepretation in modern times, music, zinaa, alcohol, drugs, you name it Muslims are involved in it. So lets not point the finger at one extreme of terrorism and call the chickens to roost on those small bands of Muslims.

As I said before our loyalty is to the Muslims and this is because of our testification to laa-ilaaha ill-Allaah. We by declaring this declare love for all those who profess it and hate all that which goes against it. So please sister, why the cuss words and the extreme anger towards these people who are sinning and not the ones who commit zina? what about so called Muslim bands and musicians? what about American oppression in the Middle East? what about Israels crusade against the Palestinians?

Why does it feel like your so angry about the bombings and terrorism but not equally as angry for the CAUSE OF IT: AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICIES/ISRAEL/UNITED NATIONS etc. Thats the reason why there is aggression in the first place. Its not like these Muslims who commit these sins are doing so for sheer Islamic virtue of it, they are doing it to retaliate against American war crimes so why dont you cuss and use profane words against that also?

This is why I advise you to calm down, speak with knowledge and be balanced. Kuffaar are not our beloved, we respect them, we fulfill their rights and we do what we can in order to bring them to accept the truth. But we dont ally with them against our Muslim brothers and sisters and we dont bend over backwards in order to please them. If they go to hell they are punished because they deserved it not because they were misled by "terrorists" from accepting the truth. Allaah punishes and his punishment is his justice so saying "they will go to hell because of these people" is really casting aspersions and doubts onto the Justice of Allaah.

Even if we blame al-Qaeda and terrorists for so called bombings against innocent people. What is our basis for believing it? Are we going to rely on CNN and FOX news for this information? Just like how there were WMDs in Iraaq somewhere that could be detonated in 45 minutes? This is why we are told to verify our sources whenever we hear news from a kaafir/evil person (refer to Surah 49). To be honest, nearly every attack that happens gets blamed on so called "Muslim terrorists" and there is next to no evidence to prove it was done by them. Furthermore, we have reports coming from the accused Muslims, that Americans are planting and detonating bombs themselves in order to justify drone attacks in Pakistan. So the least we can say is that there is no solid evidence either way [even though we should always take the side of the Muslim in this case].

If non-Muslims seek to justify their non belief in Islaam by saying "Muslims are terrorists" then they are fascist and that is the cause of their own destruction. Because we know a basic human right is one person cannot be blamed for anothers action, a son not blamed for the fathers deed, a mother not blamed for a daughters deed, nor will anyone be charged for the offence of another. So if someone says to you "I am not accepting Islaam because of Bin Laaden" then tell them Bin Laaden isnt the reason for Islaam being revealed as a religion. If they say "we dont like it because of terrorism" then explain to them the true message of Islaam. Just like we cant say "we hate America because of Bush" or we hate Germany because of hitler" or "we hate Jews because of Ariel Sharon". Pointless debate really.

Maybe, we should be out there making a change, showing what Islaam is really about rather than pointing fingers in dubious directions looking for solace in the extreme acts of another. We all are slack when it comes to deen, we all dont worship Allaah as he deserves so before we start declaring others with labels and slanders, let us look to rectifying our own affairs and fulfilling our own responsibilities.

P:S - Killing innocent people does not take you outside the fold of Islaam. It is a major sin but not something that removes you from being a Muslim.
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Mohamed_Sadiq
05-13-2010, 05:46 PM
Allah (swt) knows best
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Billal-A
05-13-2010, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
The fact of the matter is......we muslims must respond and react to those who mock the prophet those who say"its better not to react" and be tolerant. they are nto even true muslims.
I think yes you should react thats correct but to go around flailing the hadd punishment isnt what is required in this case as we cannot implement that. May Allaah reward you for illustrating this beautiful concept here, but quite frankly its very mistimed and very misplaced. We know we cant apply sharee'ah hadd punishments in the west especially, where these types of insults tend to happen the most, so really going into the hadd is completely irrelevant.

As for the "no permission" issue, my two examples are explicit proofs from the khulafaa ar-raashideen that we need the MUSLIM RULER to implement that. Also the same sources you are using are used to refute your stance which seems to be the "vigilante" approach, so akhi please lets stick with the scholars on this one.

May Allaah have mercy on all of us. Ameen.
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cat eyes
05-13-2010, 06:20 PM
deleted........................
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cat eyes
05-13-2010, 06:22 PM
deleted......................
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-13-2010, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
what exactly do u mean by that i have a habit of putting words in peoples mouth? i read your post very clearly and thats exactly what you meant that my sister is making excuses of not reverting. what the hell do u know about anything that you make judgements about people whom you dont even know.
Apparently you haven't read it clearly. Understanding my post doesn't involve mixing in your thoughts with my words. I haven't mentioned your sister at all. The only person to have have done that was no one but yourself. Stop taking your frustration out on me its childish. You know full well I did not mention her and I only gave you my input but rather you felt it was necessary to go on a rampage. I have not made judgements about anyone. Perhaps you need to run through your own posts and then tell me who is judging.

JazakAllah khair.

now the true colors of members is really coming out Alhamdulilah.
I won't go as low as that inshaAllah.

:sl:
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Billal-A
05-13-2010, 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
now the true colors of members is really coming out Alhamdulilah.
SubhanAllaah,

Sis I really think you need to either take a time out or really ponder over your statements. At the end of the day we are all held accountable for our speech so let us either speak by way of what is right or remain silent. Nobody has accused your sister of making excuses. Thats between and whoever is able to assess that. I think you should stop reading what is simply not there and take the points that are being presented to you.

So far what I have seen from Light of heaven is correct in principle. A person has no excuse in not accepting Islaam, they cannot justify not accepting it based on what they see MUSLIMS DOING. This is simply abismal. It may seem a justification to some but if it was in the eyes of Allaah then it would be an exception for non-Muslims but it is not. The matter is, anyone who dies outside of the religion of Islaam after it has been presented to them and they are sane, of age and understanding are in the Fire and this is what is confirmed in the Qur'an and sunnah.

Whatever reasons a person may give for not accepting Islaam do not hold weight at all. This is known. And this applies to your sister as well. May Allaah guide her to the truth, Ameen.
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cat eyes
05-13-2010, 06:44 PM
deleted.........................
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cat eyes
05-13-2010, 06:48 PM
deleted...................
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shuraimfan4lyf
05-13-2010, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
ignorant ignorant IGNORANT:raging: I Never do anything of the sort. i always speak my mind.


Go and learn some manners
:sl:
Sister, take a chill pill. By posting all these "manner" post, it seems like you are the one who needs to learn some manners.
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aadil77
05-13-2010, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
so your saying my sister is making up excuses now of why she wont revert? why are we afraid to point the finger at muslims? more like why are we making excuses for evil... its unbelievable
sis there are many reason for this, first of all you should protect the honour of muslims, secondly with issues like suicide bombings we have to be careful of assuming the worst of muslims because there have been many instances of muslims being wrongly blaimed

on the other hand of your argument of people not reverting we can say that many have reverted because of the increase in media about islam, we have to try and give the best imagine of islam, if people do not revert then that is not in our hands, we can't say such and such reasons caused/prevented people from reverting - only Allah has the knowledge of that
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aadil77
05-13-2010, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
ignorant ignorant IGNORANT:raging: I Never do anything of the sort. i always speak my mind.


Go and learn some manners
^lol u beat me to it

chill my sister in islam

everything is cool here :shade:
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cat eyes
05-13-2010, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by shuraimfan4lyf
:sl:
Sister, take a chill pill. By posting all these "manner" post, it seems like you are the one who needs to learn some manners.
read her snide remark before making any comments.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-13-2010, 06:58 PM
:sl:

Ok this is getting bad and my intention was never to judge nor hurt anyone. Firstly, my post was not aimed at anyone but was only my assessment of how I would notice things. I had also mentioned that these were just my thoughts and may not necessarily be correct. Secondly I want to apologize for my comments I just said it in the heat of the moment and didn't mean any of it.
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Billal-A
05-13-2010, 07:07 PM
"The believers are but brothers, so make settlement between your brothers. And fear Allaah that you may receive mercy. O you who have believed, let not a people ridicule [another] people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women ridicule [other] women; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by [offensive] nicknames. Wretched is the name [i.e., mention] of disobedience after [one's] faith. And whoever does not repent – then it is those who are the wrongdoers. O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin." [49: 10-12]

"Certainly will the believers have succeeded: They who are during their prayer humbly submissive. And they who turn away from ill speech" [23: 1-3]

“O you who believe! Fear Allah and speak a word that is right. He will set right for you your deeds and forgive you your sins. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly attained a great achievement.” [33 : 70-71]

"Whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day, let them speak good or remain silent" [Bukhari]

“Indeed a servant will speak a word pleasing to Allah that he thinks to be insignificant, but because of it Allah raises him by many degrees. And indeed a servant will speak a word displeasing to Allah that he thinks to be insignificant, but because of it, He will consign him to the Hellfire.” [Bukhari]

“A man might speak a word without thinking about its implications, but because of it, he will plunge into the Hellfire further than the distance between the east and west.” [Bukhari & Muslim]
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-13-2010, 07:11 PM
^^JazakAllah khayr for the reminder and once again my apologies. Forgive me inshaAllah. Love you for the sake of Allah sis.
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cat eyes
05-13-2010, 07:13 PM
deleted............
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quranalim
05-13-2010, 07:50 PM
CatEyes

from what i udnerstand from your comments. first you denied that the punishment can be applied to a kafir as well. then ishowed you how to schoalrs have said...the kafir are also binded by this punishment.


then you claimed the prophet never punished anyone for this...and i showed you the hadith and the scholars who disagree with you.


now you claim the punishment can only be carried out by a muslim ruler.


it seems you dotn want people to get punished for abusing the prophet?
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aadil77
05-13-2010, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
now you claim the punishment can only be carried out by a muslim ruler.


it seems you dotn want people to get punished for abusing the prophet?
bro ofcourse we do, but we have to follow correct islamic teachings as to prevent spreading fitna and corruption, brother Bilal has shown you that you cannot take the law in your own hands and that you cannot carry out these punishments in non muslim lands
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Salahudeen
05-13-2010, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
CatEyes

from what i udnerstand from your comments. first you denied that the punishment can be applied to a kafir as well. then ishowed you how to schoalrs have said...the kafir are also binded by this punishment.


then you claimed the prophet never punished anyone for this...and i showed you the hadith and the scholars who disagree with you.


now you claim the punishment can only be carried out by a muslim ruler.


it seems you dotn want people to get punished for abusing the prophet?

what are you on seriously?? did you like completely by pass Bilal's post?? go back and read Bilal's post, you still haven't addressed the issues that were raised in it, and it's a fatwa from THE SITE YOU'RE QUOTING FROM SAYING YOU CAN'T CARRY OUT PUNISHMENTS WITHOUT A LEADER!!! READ IT PLZ!! BEFORE YOU KILL SOME 1!!!
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Salahudeen
05-13-2010, 10:08 PM
HERE YOU GO AGAIN READ IT, A FATWA FROM THE SCHOLARS YOU ARE QUOTING FROM SAYING YOU CAN'T CARRY OUT PUNISHMENTS WITHOUT A LEADER




Assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

Akhi "quranalim" without a doubt the rulings are clear regarding an individual be it Muslim or non-Muslim who slanders and speaks ill of the Prophet pbuh that he should be killed. Alhamdulillah. But to take that hadd punishments legislated in sharee'ah are to be applied in lands of kufr is not from among the scholarly opinions we have found. You have, alhamdulillah quoted from the very beneficial site Islam Q&A in referring to the ahaadeeth proving this however failed to address the issue of the following:

1. Who applies the hadd punishment?
2. What about when the act is carried out in a land that is not governed by sharee'ah?

I believe the following link from the same website addresses adequately both of these points alhamdulillah.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/12461

If a person commits a crime which deserves a hadd punishment in a land that is not ruled according to that which Allaah has revealed, what is to be done?

If a Muslim commits a crime which deserves a hadd punishment, such as zina (adultery), and he wants to purify himself by having the hadd punishment carried out on him, but his government does not rule according to that which Allaah has revealed, what should he do? If he asks some of his relatives or friends to carry out the hadd punishment on him, is that correct, and will his sins be forgiven?.


Praise be to Allaah.

The scholars are unanimously agreed that the hadd punishment can only be carried out by the imam (Islamic ruler) or his deputy. This is in the people’s interests and is for the protection of their soul, their wealth and their honour. The imam is able to carry it out because of the power and authority he has, which make the people obey him, and because no one can accuse the imam of being biased or negligent in carrying out the hadd punishments. Thus the imam is able to carry out the hudood punishments in the proper manner so that the shar’i goals will certainly be achieved.

Al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 17/145.

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 7/21:

The hadd punishments can only be carried out by a Muslim ruler or one who takes the place of the ruler. It is not permissible for individual Muslims to carry out the hadd punishments because of the chaos and fitnah (tribulation) to which that will lead.”

It also says (21/5-6):

No one can carry out the hadd punishments except the Muslim ruler or his deputy, in order to maintain order and prevent anyone from transgressing against others, and to protect against injustice. And the sinner has to pray for forgiveness and repent to Allaah and do a lot of good deeds. If he is sincere in his repentance towards Allaah, Allaah will accept his repentance and forgive Him by His grace and kindness. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who invoke not any other ilaah (god) along with Allaah, nor kill such person as Allaah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment.

69. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace;

70. Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds; for those, Allaah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allaah is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Furqaan 25:67-70]

“And verily, I am indeed forgiving to him who repents, believes (in My Oneness, and associates none in worship with Me) and does righteous good deeds, and then remains constant in doing them (till his death)”

[Ta-Ha 20:82]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Islam erases whatever came before it, and repentance erases whatever came before it.”.
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cat eyes
05-13-2010, 11:23 PM
of course i want that people to get punished but not like how you want. you seem to believe that a person dose not need any prove or something that you just can punish somebody so easily.

I Have already said that alot of stuff has to be taken in to account before a punishment is carried out in shariah state.

please don't take this as a joke but maybe you should see a doctor? telling us that you want to kill non muslims is not normal behaviour man. maybe you were inflicted with black magic or something
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Abdul Wahid
05-13-2010, 11:33 PM
Can't believe this thread has not been closed!

A request to the brothers & sisters not to contribute as everything has been discussed.
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cat eyes
05-13-2010, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Wahid
Can't believe this thread has not been closed!

A request to the brothers & sisters not to contribute as everything has been discussed.
yeah your right brother i will pray that he actually realises what he is actually saying and he will come on the right path AMEEN,
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Salahudeen
05-14-2010, 12:06 AM
allah hu alam, who knows there may be spies among us trying to find people who take the law into their own hands and kill civiliians, he's opened another thread about it also strangely enough. the op seems obsessed with finding people who agree that civilians should take the law into their own hands and kill people.
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Salahudeen
05-14-2010, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by Abdul Wahid
Can't believe this thread has not been closed!

A request to the brothers & sisters not to contribute as everything has been discussed.

I find it quite bizare also, here we have an individual promoting breaking the law of the land and killing civillians. Yet his posts are not moderated.
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Woodrow
05-14-2010, 02:39 AM
I am the first to agree my knowledge of Shariah is very small but if my understanding is correct, Shariah law is just and is not vigilante law nor one to be carried out and enforced by individuals. As best as I can find Shariah punishment is to be applied only after a person has been found guilty of the crime by legitimate Shariah judges, and the enforcers of the punishment are to be approved by the judge.


Do any Shariah judges exist today and if so where are they? Who do we have in today's world that is legitimately qualified to preside over a Shariah court? Very few if any of us live in such a country.
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Woodrow
05-14-2010, 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by squiggle
I find it quite bizare also, here we have an individual promoting breaking the law of the land and killing civillians. Yet his posts are not moderated.
Perhaps it is because I am finding the replies from the members, speaking much better than the silence of a deletion. We will not take the law into our own hands and as Muslims we do not follow vigilante justice and believe in fair trials. Punishment is not handed out by individuals, because be believe somebody is guilty.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-14-2010, 02:58 AM
Some have stopped but not everyone does. Nonetheless it was asked for in the course of this thread. In most threads even when there is no silence, threads are closed so I'm not sure how that really matters :/
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Woodrow
05-14-2010, 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Some have stopped but not everyone does. Nonetheless it was asked for in the course of this thread. In most threads even when there is no silence, threads are closed so I'm not sure how that really matters :/
So far it seems I have been the only admin to see this thread. I can not find where anybody has used the report button to report the thread. I left it open on the basis of my own judgment as I found the replies very good to show that most of us do not justify vigilante justice.Most of us will not take the law into our own hands.

Now that I spoke my say and am satisfied with the replies in this thread, it is a good time to let it retire.

:threadclo:
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