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quranalim
05-13-2010, 08:25 PM
It is also obligatory to report him to the authorities who can carry out the punishment on him. . If there is no one who can carry out the hadd punishment of Allaah and stand up for the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) then the Muslim has to do whatever he can, so long as that will not lead to further mischief and harm against other people. But if a Muslim hears a kaafir defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he keeps quiet and does not respond for fear that this person may then defame him even more, this is mistaken thinking


Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak, Majallat al-Da’wah, Muharram, issue no. 1933.
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/14305/...0the%20prophet

In the case of defamation, the hadith says:

If you find him alive – although I do not think that you will find him alive – then strike his neck (kill him). And if you find him dead then burn him with fire.” He said: This is what the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning “one who tells lies about me deliberately.” Shaykh al-Islam said: “This is a saheeh isnaad according to the conditions of al-Saheeh and we do not find any fault in it.” Then he said: There are two opinions concerning this hadeeth:
Islam QA says about this hadith


There are two opinions concerning this hadeeth:

1 – That the apparent meaning should be followed and the one who deliberately tells lies about the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) should be killed

........Their is also a second opinion

2 – The liar is to be punished severely, but he is not regarded as a kaafir and it is not permissible to kill him, because the factors that determine who is a kaafir and is to be killed are well known and this is not one of them. It is not permissible to affirm something for which there is no basis. Whoever says that he is not to be executed has to stipulate that telling lies about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) does not imply any criticism or defamation of him.

But if he says that he heard him say something that implies belittling the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or criticizing him, such as the hadeeth about “the sweat of horses” and other such silly fabrications, this is obviously mocking him, and the one who says this is undoubtedly a kaafir whose blood may be shed. Those who were of the view that such a person is not to be executed responded to this hadeeth by saying that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) knew that he was a hypocrite so he killed him for that and not for lying, but this answer does not count for anything.
The hadith is clear on what should happen to somone who lies about the prophet to defame him

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/34725/...0the%20prophet

http://islam.worldofislam.info/index...=130&Itemid=44


Finally, in this day and age, even islamic governments and non-muslim authorities do not even implement the punishment of allah.

If a muslim can not find an "Imam" or "Ruler" to implement his punishment.....well heres the story of an apostate called "Farag Foda" who used to mock the prophet.

An Al-Azhar University scholar, Mohammed al-Ghazali, a witness before the court, declared it was not wrong to kill a foe of Islam. Al-Ghazali said:
"The killing of Farag Foda was in fact the implementation of the punishment against an apostate which the imam (the Islamic leader) has failed to implement (undertake)."
also see
Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak, Majallat al-Da’wah, Muharram, issue no. 1933.[/QUOTE]

More info: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ks-the-prophet
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LauraS
05-13-2010, 09:33 PM
You can't just go around killing people these days :S what it says is just not feasible, as well as just being plain wrong. What do you suggest that you kill everyone that takes part in the drawing day? Non-Muslims drawing the Prophet is completely wrong but the fact is people are ignoasnt of just what it means, they aren't necessarily bad people. All they see is a big reaction to someone offending Muslims in the press and think people are overreacting. I think it tends to be young people just for a laugh and to be rebellious.
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aadil77
05-13-2010, 09:38 PM
bro prove to us this punishment can be done in non muslim lands
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quranalim
05-13-2010, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
bro prove to us this punishment can be done in non muslim lands
is their any such thing as non muslim land...? is allah's law not universal?

that somone should not be punished, just because they live in so called "non - muslim" land...




at the time of the prophet, not all people in arabia and yemen were muslim. in fact, at the start the vast majority were idoltaers..their are hadith which indicate that the punishment is binded upon non-muslims to.


just because one is a non-muslim, does nto mean they should be let off...as indicated by the scholars....(if we dont punish these athiest...they will do it more)


But if they insult Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) first, then we must respond and punish them so as deter them from their kufr and enmity. If we leave the kuffaar and atheists to say whatever they want without denouncing it or punishing them, great mischief will result, which is something that these kuffaar love. No attention should be paid to the one who says that insulting or responding to insults will make him more stubborn. The Muslim has to have a sense of protective jealousy and get angry for the sake of Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whoever hears the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) being insulted and does not feel any protective jealousy or get angry is not a true believer – we seek refuge with Allaah from humility, kufr and obeying the Shaytaan. And Allaah knows best."

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak, Majallat al-Da’wah, Muharram, issue no. 1933.
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Salahudeen
05-13-2010, 10:12 PM
There is such a land that is governed by kuffar rulers and kuffar rules, that's WHY ISLAM QA SAY YOU CAN'T CARRY OUT PUNISHMENTS IN THOSE LANDS PLEASE READ WHAT THE SCHOLARS YOU'RE QUOTING FROM SAY ABOUT CARRYING OUT PUNIHSMENTS.


Assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

Akhi "quranalim" without a doubt the rulings are clear regarding an individual be it Muslim or non-Muslim who slanders and speaks ill of the Prophet pbuh that he should be killed. Alhamdulillah. But to take that hadd punishments legislated in sharee'ah are to be applied in lands of kufr is not from among the scholarly opinions we have found. You have, alhamdulillah quoted from the very beneficial site Islam Q&A in referring to the ahaadeeth proving this however failed to address the issue of the following:

1. Who applies the hadd punishment?
2. What about when the act is carried out in a land that is not governed by sharee'ah?

I believe the following link from the same website addresses adequately both of these points alhamdulillah.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/12461

If a person commits a crime which deserves a hadd punishment in a land that is not ruled according to that which Allaah has revealed, what is to be done?

If a Muslim commits a crime which deserves a hadd punishment, such as zina (adultery), and he wants to purify himself by having the hadd punishment carried out on him, but his government does not rule according to that which Allaah has revealed, what should he do? If he asks some of his relatives or friends to carry out the hadd punishment on him, is that correct, and will his sins be forgiven?.


Praise be to Allaah.

The scholars are unanimously agreed that the hadd punishment can only be carried out by the imam (Islamic ruler) or his deputy. This is in the people’s interests and is for the protection of their soul, their wealth and their honour. The imam is able to carry it out because of the power and authority he has, which make the people obey him, and because no one can accuse the imam of being biased or negligent in carrying out the hadd punishments. Thus the imam is able to carry out the hudood punishments in the proper manner so that the shar’i goals will certainly be achieved.

Al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 17/145.

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 7/21:

The hadd punishments can only be carried out by a Muslim ruler or one who takes the place of the ruler. It is not permissible for individual Muslims to carry out the hadd punishments because of the chaos and fitnah (tribulation) to which that will lead.”

It also says (21/5-6):

No one can carry out the hadd punishments except the Muslim ruler or his deputy, in order to maintain order and prevent anyone from transgressing against others, and to protect against injustice. And the sinner has to pray for forgiveness and repent to Allaah and do a lot of good deeds. If he is sincere in his repentance towards Allaah, Allaah will accept his repentance and forgive Him by His grace and kindness. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who invoke not any other ilaah (god) along with Allaah, nor kill such person as Allaah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment.

69. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace;

70. Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds; for those, Allaah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allaah is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Furqaan 25:67-70]

“And verily, I am indeed forgiving to him who repents, believes (in My Oneness, and associates none in worship with Me) and does righteous good deeds, and then remains constant in doing them (till his death)”

[Ta-Ha 20:82]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Islam erases whatever came before it, and repentance erases whatever came before it.”.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-13-2010, 10:21 PM
:sl:

I wont vote because it's not a simple yes or no question. It's like a fully loaded question.
We DON'T like the Prophet(saw) being ridiculed or mocked but we also can't just inflict the punishment on people ourselves just like that.
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Billal-A
05-13-2010, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/14305/...0the%20prophet

In the case of defamation, the hadith says:



Islam QA says about this hadith




The hadith is clear on what should happen to somone who lies about the prophet to defame him

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/34725/...0the%20prophet

http://islam.worldofislam.info/index...=130&Itemid=44


Finally, in this day and age, even islamic governments and non-muslim authorities do not even implement the punishment of allah.

If a muslim can not find an "Imam" or "Ruler" to implement his punishment.....well heres the story of an apostate called "Farag Foda" who used to mock the prophet.

An Al-Azhar University scholar, Mohammed al-Ghazali, a witness before the court, declared it was not wrong to kill a foe of Islam. Al-Ghazali said:

also see
Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak, Majallat al-Da’wah, Muharram, issue no. 1933.
More info: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ks-the-prophet[/QUOTE]


Assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

I know this will sound really aggressive but I must give advice regarding this "quranalim" as I have refuted his statements time and time again on the other thread. My advice to everyone here is to stop addressing this individual. All I can see from him is a complete neglect of what refutes his opinion and constantly bombarding the same notion that you can kill people without a leader based on his own extrapolation of ahaadeeth. A few things to consider when dealing with fatwa shoppers like this "quranalim":

1. Ask him for daleel. This brother is quoting ahaadeeth about the same incident on another thread and causing the same mischief here citing the same hadeeth relating to the blind companion who killed his Jewish woman for consistently abusing Rasulullah [saws]. So many times he has been addressed regarding this issue yet all he will do is quote in the link to the reference on Islam Q&A where this is mentioned. Who preceded you in what you say "quranalim"? Who also holds your opinion from the Salaf that we can do such things without an ameer or leader? Are you a muhaddith that you can extrapolate from this narration that a person can take sharee'ah into his own hands? Are you superior to the Salaf us saaliheen that your opinion is so weighty in your own eyes that you can go around doing this?

2. Question his motives: why is the brother not accepting the daleel and not correcting his own opinion regarding this? Why is he seeking the responses of individuals regarding this issue as to who agrees? Is he fatwa shopping and acting as a cell for the government to see who has radical opinions from this? You reckon he could be the cartoonist himself trying to find evidence to prosecute potential attackers when he visits the west? LOL. Is this person someone who is not from deviant ideologies promoting certain elements of narrations to misguide people?

3. Disregard him once he begins to disregard the evidences: his opinion is becoming worthless now because he refuses to accept the clear evidences or respond to the people refuting his position. At the end of the day we know that we cannot act as vigilantes nor can we ever accept such a dangerous concept amongst our Muslim community so this is clear. Alhamdulillah.

4. Remind this brother to fear Allaah with regards to his ways. This brother clearly is not seeking the truth but wanting to push an agenda. So we remind the brother that we follow the Qur'an and sunnah and it does not follow us, we dont argue opinions and seek out narrations to back us up, rather we evaluate what the aayaat and ahaadeeth say and we live according to it. Allaah is our witness and he knows all that we conceal and reveal so may Allaah correct this individual or expose his reality to us [even more!]

5. Make du'aa to Allaah to make us firm upon the correct methodology in taking from the Qur'an and sunnah as understood by the companions, taabi'een, taba' taabi'een and the noble scholars from our ummah, and that we dont be affected by the barking dogs from among the ignorant and misguided ones.

May Allaah indeed make us among those who seek ilm, abstain of speaking in favour of our desires, act upon the noble aayaat and ahaadeeth, adhere to the principles of our deen, speak good or keep silent, reach for khayr and leave the harmful, may he swt allow us to take from the Salafus saaliheen and truly be followers of Ahlus sunnah wal jama'ah and its people and steer us clear from the deviant, ignorant methodology and its people, ameen!
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-13-2010, 10:44 PM
Ameen! JazakAllah Khayr.
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Salahudeen
05-13-2010, 10:45 PM
good points akhi Bilal, I am starting to wonder if there are spies at work trying to find "potential radical muslims" who agree with taking the law into their own hands and killing civillians.
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quranalim
05-13-2010, 10:52 PM
@ bila A,

no one should be let off from allah's punishment...is that what you suggesting?

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sometimes chose to forgive those who had insulted him, and sometimes he ordered that they should be executed, if that served a greater purpose. But now his forgiveness is impossible because he is dead, so the execution of the one who insults him remains the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and the one who deserves to be executed cannot be let off, so the punishment must be carried out.

Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/438
the wisdom lies in the fact that by carrying out the punishment it will deter the kuffar. if we are unable to carry out such punishments then we must stand up for the prophet in other ways i.e protesting

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...ks-the-prophet
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-13-2010, 10:55 PM
You're repeating the same thing over and over. Actually respond or say nothing. All I hear is one thing from you, "You all think they should not receive a punishment."

Apparently you're missing all the main points. Might as well stop while you're ahead :D
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Abdul Wahid
05-13-2010, 11:10 PM
:sl: brother quranalim

You seem to be asking the same question over and over again.

Do you know how many people mocked, ridiculed & defamed the Prophet (PBUH)? The same people later reverted to Islam. SubhanaALLAH.

Violence is not always the answer. A Fatwa has been provided to you with regards to this. You can't twist around it.

:wa:
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Woodrow
05-14-2010, 03:47 AM
There do not seem to be many members who support the concepts of vigilante law.



:threadclo:
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