‘Derision of West misguided’

[Banu_Hashim]

‘Derision of West misguided’By SIRAJ WAHAB | ARAB NEWS

Published: May 17, 2010 23:48 Updated: May 17, 2010 23:48
US more in alignment with Islamic values than many Muslim states: Al-Qarni

ALKHOBAR: A popular Saudi author and religious scholar has raised some questions about governmental and societal practices across the Arab world and asserts that the United States is more in alignment with many Islamic values than many countries represented as Muslim states.

Aaidh ibn Abdullah Al-Qarni, whose self-help book “Don’t Be Sad” sells briskly both in English and Arabic, made the remarks in two recent columns published in Asharq Al-Awsat, a sister publication of Arab News.

In the columns, Al-Qarni compared a Saudi woman’s experience after being beaten by an abusive husband in the United States with what often happens — or doesn’t happen — in her native land. In the second column, Al-Qarni explored the reasons so many Muslims move to the US and find both greater opportunity and more tolerance that they could expect in their homelands. The thought-provoking articles have prompted many discussions at coffee shops and dinner tables.

“The US deals with its subjects through systems that look like they were based on Islamic teachings while Muslims fail to implement such systems,” Al-Qarni wrote in his column about domestic violence, which focused on a family that moved to the US while the husband was working on a university degree.

Physically and verbally abused, the wife appealed to his family and her family to intervene but to no avail.

“In fact she was rejected, insulted and threatened by them,” Al-Qarni wrote of the family members back home. “Having reached a dead end, the wife decided to put a stop to the physical and psychological pain she and her children were suffering; she contacted the police and told them about her husband.”

He then described the response of several police squads visiting the residence and getting the story from both spouses and the children before deducing the man indeed was beating his wife. The husband was arrested and the wife and children moved to a hotel at the state’s expense and under police protection. Later, the wife was given financial assistance and an American attorney represented her for no charge.

Authorities found her an appropriate job, escorted her children to school and made the husband agree not to come near any of them before the court hearing on the matter, at which time he was convicted of domestic violence. The wife was awarded custody of the children.

“Now, after listening to the story, let us ask how many women are beaten, insulted and hurt without anybody coming to their aid? I am aware of many terrifying stories of the worst kind of abuse and oppression that women experience day and night,” Al-Qarni wrote.

“I fear that after people read this story, many women in the Arab world would want to go to the US. I believe that there should be a secret police force whose task is to rescue women who are being assaulted and suffering abuse. Any husband carrying out such abuse should share the same fate as the Saudi student in the US mentioned in the story above.”

Al-Qarni wrote it reminded him of a classic figure in Islam.

“Over 14 centuries ago, Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, the second caliph, defended an abused woman when he went to her husband’s house with his sword and rescued the woman and taught her husband a lesson, but in accordance with the principles of Shariah,” he wrote. He continued: “I remember that some colleagues and I toured 21 American states, and whenever we saw the accuracy and excellence of the traffic system, and witnessed people’s commitment to environment-protection laws, and the way daily affairs are managed, we thought of the words we read in the Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him). Even some of the Muslim professors there once said to us: ‘We swear it is as if the Americans took it from our religion word for word, while we ignore these great texts.’”

In the column about Arabs fleeing their homelands and traveling to the West, Al-Qarni notes that greater opportunities exist there than in many Arab nations.

“Some of them have fled from repression, whipping, torture, gagging, confiscation of freedom, with the traces of torture still on their backs and chests. Others have gone to look for a source of living after being stricken by poverty, stung by hunger and destroyed by unemployment and idleness. Others have gone to seek knowledge, leaving behind their countries where universities are ranked last in the list of the universities of the world,” he wrote.

Al-Qarni related the story of a Libyan man who fled his own country and found happiness and a good life in the US. “We were amazed. Amazingly enough, here is a man who fled his homeland after being terribly harassed, tortured, and maltreated there and came to a state that we are insulting day and night, and that some of us call the ‘Great Satan,’ a country that our preachers are cursing and wishing it bad,” Al-Qarni wrote. “Then, this poor Muslim man who was driven out of his country, tortured in his homeland, becomes rich, having a home, a farm and a job and enjoying a good life full happiness in an American state.”

Al-Qarni questions why the West is demonized when it provides so many opportunities to Muslims and is far more tolerant of Muslim sensitivities than many Muslim countries are to people of differing faiths.

“Why don’t we Arabs think about our tragedies and disasters, and admit that many of our states have discarded justice, confiscated liberties, taken over rights and erased the freedom of expression? This is at a time when, in the West, they discuss their affairs calmly, solve their crises with dialogue and govern their subjects with justice,” he wrote.

He suggests the Arab world needs to take a long look at itself.

“In our Shariah, we read about order, justice, good character, calls for peace and human rights, respect for others, avoiding hurting other peoples’ feelings, showing interest in the environment, seeking knowledge, encouraging work and production, and fighting poverty, ignorance, disease, and injustice. We notice that they are observing all this in the West whereas we find that many Arabs are only paying lip service to it in their bitter reality.”

Al-Qarni said there was much to be learned from the countries of the West. “Please, let us stop cursing and insulting them and wishing them bad, and let us preoccupy ourselves with reforming ourselves, improving our level, promoting our universities, cleaning our environment, building our land, and rectifying our mistakes.”

[Al-Indunisiy]

Wow.
Well, we do have to admit, some of us muslims are like in this Indonesian proverb: "An elephant in front of the eyelids invisible, but an ant across the sea is visible."
The decadence of the West is often remarked yet our own failure in this modern age seldom seen(at least to me).

[InfiniteMercy]

Asalam alaykum,
Firstly thanks for sharing the article...i intend no disrespect but I strongly disagree with the article, i think the author of the article and Al-Qarni have really simplified the issues, have totally ignored the broader contexts such as political and socio-economic factors and confused and misunderstood the underlying problems of the arab world...Its very interesting that Al-Qarni does not mention anything about the politics of the Arab world and the puppet governments (which are set up by the American and British governments- thats why many Muslims are angry!) which dont care at all about the well-being and future of their citizens and just care about crushing opposition and protests...This is just one of the many flaws in the article..people would not need to flee to the West if theyre countries were not exploited and attacked by the “West”, believe me people would much rather prefer to stay in their homelands for countless reasons...lol honestly this article might as well have been written by the new york times.. :)

All the best,
Peace :)

[Argamemnon]

The U.S. is extremely civilized except for the fact that they threaten other nations with nuclear annihilation (Iran and North Korea) and massacre millions of innocent people throughout the world. A state and economic system thriving on the suffering of other nations and peoples, toppling independent regimes, imposing sanctions (which killed a million people in Iraq alone), committing massive warcrimes, installing puppet regimes across the world serving their own interests to the detriment of the natives. Except these minor faults the U.S. is extremely merciful and humane...

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[CosmicPathos]

i wasnt expecting this from al-qarni ... I think he has only done a superficial analysis. he is true to some extent, ONLY. You will also see millions of americans who are depressed despite all these so-called Islamic values they have.

[Banu_Hashim]

Asalam alaykum,
Firstly thanks for sharing the article...i intend no disrespect but I strongly disagree with the article, i think the author of the article and Al-Qarni have really simplified the issues, have totally ignored the broader contexts such as political and socio-economic factors and confused and misunderstood the underlying problems of the arab world...Its very interesting that Al-Qarni does not mention anything about the politics of the Arab world and the puppet governments (which are set up by the American and British governments- thats why many Muslims are angry!) which dont care at all about the well-being and future of their citizens and just care about crushing opposition and protests...This is just one of the many flaws in the article..people would not need to flee to the West if theyre countries were not exploited and attacked by the “West”, believe me people would much rather prefer to stay in their homelands for countless reasons...lol honestly this article might as well have been written by the new york times.. :)

All the best,
Peace :)

Wa alaikum salaam akhi :),

You're more than entitled to disagree with the article. I think on the other hand Dr. al-Qarni view is a valid one to an extent as brother Mad Scientist said; and the constant moaning of Muslims on how corrupt the west is (although it may be true) is distracting and preventing Muslim/Arab countries from progressing and developing themselves. In my view, more self-knowledge is needed rather than self-righteousness.

All the best.

Fee Amaanillah :).

[Argamemnon]

Wa alaikum salaam akhi :),

You're more than entitled to disagree with the article. I think on the other hand Dr. al-Qarni view is a valid one to an extent as brother Mad Scientist said; and the constant moaning of Muslims on how corrupt the west is (although it may be true) is distracting and preventing Muslim/Arab countries from progressing and developing themselves. In my view, more self-knowledge is needed rather than self-righteousness.

All the best.

Fee Amaanillah :).

Salam,

One question; how many people in the West admit their atrocities and massive crimes against humanity, the tremendous suffering they are inflicting on mankind? I can assure you that if tomorrow Iran is flattened with nuclear weapons, most people in the West would defend their government. How can you call these people moral?

[Argamemnon]

Torture is widespread and systematic in the U.S... no Arab country in the world could ever compete with the U.S. in this regard.

[Supreme]

The U.S. is extremely civilized except for the fact that they threaten other nations with nuclear annihilation (Iran and North Korea) and massacre millions of innocent people throughout the world. A state and economic system thriving on the suffering of other nations and peoples, toppling independent regimes, imposing sanctions (which killed a million people in Iraq alone), committing massive warcrimes, installing puppet regimes across the world serving their own interests to the detriment of the natives. Except these minor faults the U.S. is extremely merciful and humane...

May I ask, when has the US under the current administration ever threatened nuclear annihilation of North Korea or Iran?

[Argamemnon]

May I ask, when has the US under the current administration ever threatened nuclear annihilation of North Korea or Iran?

Of course you may:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/05/451435.html

[Supreme]

Of course you may:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/05/451435.html

Thank you, but what about North Korea?

[Argamemnon]

Thank you, but what about North Korea?

http://www.hamsayeh.net/hamsayehnet_...20news1181.htm

Iran would be insane not to build nuclear weapons, I believe those were Chomsky's words.

[Argamemnon]

BTW, I don't disagree with certain facts in this article, but let's keep things in perspective.

[Supreme]

http://www.hamsayeh.net/hamsayehnet_...20news1181.htm

Iran would be insane not to build nuclear weapons, I believe those were Chomsky's words.

Thanks. I don't reckon nuclear weapons will be necessary in the case of North Korea. It'll commit suicide, either by starting a war with South Korea, or being overthrown by its own people. History has proven countries like that alway make a fatal mistake that result in their destruction.

[Lynx]

democracy and capitalism make the west a good place to live for its citizens.

[Pygoscelis]

Democracy and Capitalism are very much counterbalances to one another. Unbridled capitalism would be extremely dangerous and needs to be kept in check by the people via democracy. Otherwise the power elite rich would just enslave us all (figuratively or maybe even literally).

[جوري]

democracy and capitalism make the west a good place to live for its citizens.

yeah tell that to this kid!

and if he weren't a kid in the good old west, then do let the world know how much of your tax dollar goes to ensure that at 1.02 billion its inhabitants go hungry while you obliterate countries left and right, enslave sovereign nations and rob them of their natural resources so you can make your life and that of your fellow citizens extra comfy!

all the best oh learned philosophe.. and hats off to you for always having such a pithy one-up!

[CosmicPathos]

yeah tell that to this kid!

and if he weren't a kid in the good old west, then do let the world know how much of your tax dollar goes to ensure that at 1.02 billion its inhabitants go hungry while you obliterate countries left and right, enslave sovereign nations and rob them of their natural resources so you can make your life and that of your fellow citizens extra comfy!

all the best oh learned philosophe.. and hats off to you for always having such a pithy one-up!

:)

I have that as my fb pic. May Allah easen his hunger and provide healthy rizq whereever he is.

[جوري]

:)

I have that as my fb pic. May Allah easen his hunger and provide healthy rizq whereever he is.

I hope Allah swt doesn't punish us for letting that many people let alone children go hungry while boasting of how great the system works... No system works if children anywhere are in that kind of shape and silence equals complicity!

[Lynx]

yeah tell that to this kid!

and if he weren't a kid in the good old west, then do let the world know how much of your tax dollar goes to ensure that at 1.02 billion its inhabitants go hungry while you obliterate countries left and right, enslave sovereign nations and rob them of their natural resources so you can make your life and that of your fellow citizens extra comfy!

all the best oh learned philosophe.. and hats off to you for always having such a pithy one-up!

yeah, that's why i said 'its citizens' ;\
you know, getting everyone to start helping out the poor around the world has its consequences; if things were so simple you would not have the great debate between the left & the right. anyway, even the poor of western countries are living in luxury compared to other places in the world.
I do think that eventually that corruption will be filtered out of the 'system' for the most part and the rest of the world will enjoy prosperity...in the long run anyway. i guess i am an optimist. The condition of humans is getting better not worse!

Democracy and Capitalism are very much counterbalances to one another. Unbridled capitalism would be extremely dangerous and needs to be kept in check by the people via democracy. Otherwise the power elite rich would just enslave us all (figuratively or maybe even literally).

I had not thought about it that way...very true.

I think the source of all the 'good' things mentioned in the article about the West and why Muslims leave their home countries is precisely the consequence of having a democratic state where the happiness of the people come first.

[جوري]

yeah, that's why i said 'its citizens' ;\

New York alone has 1.4 million that can't afford food
http://www.nyccah.org/
so it is a wonder at all where nearly half of my substantial salary goes..

oh I know where it goes...

right here:

you know, getting everyone to start helping out the poor around the world has its consequences;

Yes indeed, you might not have a little five year old wasting while a vulture stands behind her

if things were so simple you would not have the great debate between the left & the right.

Only idiots make complicated matters out of things that seem rather rudimentary.. Get your asses out of sovereign nations for starters and let's see how well they do?

anyway, even the poor of western countries are living in luxury compared to other places in the world.

true that!

I do think that eventually that corruption will be filtered out of the 'system' for the most part and the rest of the world will enjoy prosperity...in the long run anyway. i guess i am an optimist. The condition of humans is getting better not worse!

I believe that too but for entirely different reasons than yours!

all the best



I had not thought about it that way...very true.

I think the source of all the 'good' things mentioned in the article about the West and why Muslims leave their home countries is precisely the consequence of having a democratic state where the happiness of the people come first.[/QUOTE]

[Lynx]

New York alone has 1.4 million that can't afford food
http://www.nyccah.org/
so it is a wonder at all where nearly half of my substantial salary goes..

oh I know where it goes...

But on average the country is far better off than almost everywhere else. Of course there's going to be holes, the system is not perfect; humans are not perfect but we are trying to get there. Mistakes happen & people die, managing nations is not an easy thing for any political or economic theory. Look at Islam for instance... moments after the prophet's death there was controversy over how to run the state which ultimately resulted in the assassination of some of Islam's most praised figures. Running things ain't easy. EDIT: to link this back to the OP, the West is doing pretty **** well since everyone runs from their countries to the west to seek the better living conditions. Same is said for probably most of the users here and that's because of the West has created a place for minorities to thrive and prosper...something they can't get in other places.

Only idiots make complicated matters out of things that seem rather rudimentary.. Get your asses out of sovereign nations for starters and let's see how well they do?

i agree with the latter of what you said, though i am not sure what it had to do with the part of my message that you're replying to. Anyway, what's rudimentary? the stuff that economists argue about?

[جوري]

But on average the country is far better off than almost everywhere else.

Not only is that subjective, but one hazard ask how you got to be 'far better off than' if for the afore mentioned reason and that is precisely why, then not only do you not deserve the 'far better off' but it will most assuredly come to bite you later one.. and it is in fact starting to.. pretty soon you'll have nothing but third world despots and equal economic collapse!



all the best

[Supreme]

It was certainly a very interesting and enlightening article. Thanks for sharing!

[Argamemnon]

democracy and capitalism make the west a good place to live for its citizens.

Yes, by stealing other nations' resources, bombing and invading and terrorizing them. You must be very proud.

[Dagless]

But on average the country is far better off than almost everywhere else.

Even if it were true that it is better off than almost everywhere else, you cannot say this is down to capitalism or democracy.

[M.A.S.H.]

Are you saying depression would cease in a perfect islamic state?

[M.A.S.H.]

i wasnt expecting this from al-qarni ... I think he has only done a superficial analysis. he is true to some extent, ONLY. You will also see millions of americans who are depressed despite all these so-called Islamic values they have.

Are you saying depression would cease in a perfect islamic state?

Sorry, double post.

[M.A.S.H.]

Yes, by stealing other nations' resources, bombing and invading and terrorizing them. You must be very proud.

Britain, Spain, Tturkey, Portugal have been stealing other nations's recources for centuries and they're far worse off than the US whi has actually never colonized or stolen from a recourse-filled nation, at least not officially. And they couldn't have stolen that much off the books, at least not enoough to take the US where it is economically compared to the rest of the world.

[Lynx]

Not only is that subjective, but one hazard ask how you got to be 'far better off than' if for the afore mentioned reason and that is precisely why, then not only do you not deserve the 'far better off' but it will most assuredly come to bite you later one.. and it is in fact starting to.. pretty soon you'll have nothing but third world despots and equal economic collapse!



all the best

of course it's subjective. some people rather live in caves than in houses and that's fine by me. i am not speaking to those people nor about them. what do you count as deserving & why do you count it as such?


Dagless

Even if it were true that it is better off than almost everywhere else, you cannot say this is down to capitalism or democracy.

well i think it's very plausible that the reason why there is an abundance of human rights in secular countries of the west is due to the implementation of a functioning democracy. i mean the political theory is why there are human rights in western countries which i think is the point of the OP...the western political ideologies are much more equitable in human rights. economically, the free market style of economics that is used by Europe and North America and slowly China & India seems to work also so I don't know where else to lay the blame for financial success.

[جوري]

of course it's subjective. some people rather live in caves than in houses and that's fine by me.

The alternate to houses isn't caves believe it or not.. my sense is that you need to be better traveled?
Muslims that move to the west, find the west currently what the Muslim world was in its golden ages.. it pains me personally to not offer what I know to people I deem deserve care, but I try to do my best to dedicate my time.. I know if I went to Palestine right, I'd end up in some Israeli prison rather than giving vaccines and health care to those who deserve it. and that is through no fault of the Palestinians or Islam as a religion, rather the effete and ineffectual govt. that run have a strong grip in the region and by a direct order from the west. Every effort that is made to usurp these govt. and establish proper khlaifate nipped in the bud!
we are at an age predicted and largely in part due to what we have offered.. but it doesn't mean that we are less capable, we are in fact alot more capable, and so tell us your own govt. consensus:

Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.

Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.

they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.




Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says
Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002

(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)

WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.

They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.

The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.

The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/p...ab_America.pdf
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/mideastcoverage.html

what do you count as deserving & why do you count it as such?

This is complicated and I don't wish to get into a windy argument about it when I have a migraine and need to work on my other thread (which at least should serve some purpose)

all the best

[Dagless]

well i think it's very plausible that the reason why there is an abundance of human rights in secular countries of the west is due to the implementation of a functioning democracy.

Depends if you call it a true democracy. Human rights are slowly going out the window if recent history is anything to go by. Nevertheless you cannot say success is based on democracy and capitalism just because you happen to be living by those rules and surviving. Many nations have been successful without them.

economically, the free market style of economics that is used by Europe and North America and slowly China & India seems to work also so I don't know where else to lay the blame for financial success.

"seems to work" is hardly a reason to call it successful or a good thing.

[InfiniteMercy]

The thing that many people (ofcourse there are many that dont fall in this category) in the west fail to understand is that democracy (REAL democracy which is something very rare), human rights,etc,etc isnt something that can just happen and be put in place...these things take many, many years and only once the country is TRULY SOVEREIGN (and independent from foreign influence!!) and has a SOLID ECONOMY and the earnings and education of the average citizen increased to good level then all these good things such as democracy, human rights, free media, etc will follow..these are basic fundamental principles that most people dont understand...So if u want to truly "spread Democracy and improve human rights" in a sustainable way follow the basic steps above and not invade, install puppet governments, support dictators, secretly organize coups, exploit natural resources......

[Lynx]

The alternate to houses isn't caves believe it or not.. my sense is that you need to be better traveled?
Muslims that move to the west, find the west currently what the Muslim world was in its golden ages.. it pains me personally to not offer what I know to people I deem deserve care, but I try to do my best to dedicate my time.. I know if I went to Palestine right, I'd end up in some Israeli prison rather than giving vaccines and health care to those who deserve it. and that is through no fault of the Palestinians or Islam as a religion, rather the effete and ineffectual govt. that run have a strong grip in the region and by a direct order from the west. Every effort that is made to usurp these govt. and establish proper khlaifate nipped in the bud!
we are at an age predicted and largely in part due to what we have offered.. but it doesn't mean that we are less capable, we are in fact alot more capable, and so tell us your own govt. consensus:

Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.

Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.

they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.




Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says
Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002

(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)

WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.

They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.

The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.

The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/p...ab_America.pdf
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/mideastcoverage.html

This is complicated and I don't wish to get into a windy argument about it when I have a migraine and need to work on my other thread (which at least should serve some purpose)

all the best

I was reading through your post and wondering why you're giving me this info then I realized how my post sounded! i didn't mean to say Muslims come from caves haha I meant even if someone wanted to live in a cave then that's fine by me. I had no intention of bringing up the classic dumb stereotype of mUslims; I was agreeing with your claim that living standards are entirely subjective. apologies for any confusion.

Depends if you call it a true democracy. Human rights are slowly going out the window if recent history is anything to go by. Nevertheless you cannot say success is based on democracy and capitalism just because you happen to be living by those rules and surviving. Many nations have been successful without them.



"seems to work" is hardly a reason to call it successful or a good thing.

capitalism is successful because it is the mode of production that has yielded the greatest wealth for the countries who have adopted it and it apparently works for countries newly adopting it like china or india or other BRIC countries. even Marx, the greatest critic of capitailsm (and the father of the only criticism?) acknowledged the power of capitalism and how successful it is in raking in the doh :). critiquing it on moral grounds is different than critiquing it as an economic theory which is what marx critiqued it on.

i don;'t know what you mean by human rights have been going out the window. if you can clarify that it would be great.

[جوري]

I was reading through your post and wondering why you're giving me this info then I realized how my post sounded! i didn't mean to say Muslims come from caves haha I meant even if someone wanted to live in a cave then that's fine by me. I had no intention of bringing up the classic dumb stereotype of mUslims; I was agreeing with your claim that living standards are entirely subjective. apologies for any confusion.

.

Ok.. thanks!

peace

[Dagless]

capitalism is successful because it is the mode of production that has yielded the greatest wealth for the countries who have adopted it and it apparently works for countries newly adopting it like china or india or other BRIC countries.

As I mentioned before I don't know how you can justify something or say its good/successful because "apparently it works". The people who are rich are few, the people who are poor are numerous. That doesn't sound like a great system to me. You say it works for people in west but even there the lower classes are biggest by far. In the UK there are a huge number of people below the poverty line. No country as rich as the UK should have that type of situation in existence.

i don;'t know what you mean by human rights have been going out the window. if you can clarify that it would be great.

Holding citizens without charge or trial.

[Pygoscelis]

Democracy is necessary for freedom, but it is not sufficient. A democracy is only as good as the moral fibre, attentiveness and awareness of its people. But in a democracy you at least have some chance of your voice being heard, unlike in a monarchy, theocracy or dictatorship.

Oh and for those who are bashing "the west" for all the evil things it has done to third world countries, I think you need to look a little deeper than tribal identities. If and when the situation is reversed, these who are oppressed are the oppressors. There is no "side" that is inherently more moral to the core than the other. I have been reading Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel" and in it he relays a number of stories of genocides, exploitations etc for material gain throughout history all throughout the world - whereever there is a marked imbalance of power. More fair media and information to the populace may actually empower a democracy to stop its power rich from embarking on these attrocity campaigns.

Also note that this western exploitation of the east isn't all the west's doing. Africans have been very quick to sell each other out for personal gain, and corruption in poor countries is often the greatest obstacle to outsiders getting aid to those who need it.

[Lynx]

As I mentioned before I don't know how you can justify something or say its good/successful because "apparently it works". The people who are rich are few, the people who are poor are numerous. That doesn't sound like a great system to me. You say it works for people in west but even there the lower classes are biggest by far. In the UK there are a huge number of people below the poverty line. No country as rich as the UK should have that type of situation in existence.

First and foremost, there's a limited amount of resources and not everyone is going to be a 'winner'. Someone's going to end up with less and that's just the reality and point of running a sound economy.

What's a great system to you? One where everyone is equally rich or equally poor or equally middle class? That sounds great to me too now let's go put that into practice...I hope you get my point. In a functioning society you are not going to have equal income for everyone; that isn't sound economics. Imperfect as it is, it still attracts flocks of people who don't seem to be running off to Saudi Arabia to live out their lives. Why do you think that is? Because everyone knows, even if they come to a western country like Canada where I live, the poverty level, as low as it is, is still better off to whatever they are escaping back home. Being poor in a western country isn't so bad compared to being poor in a non-western country and that's because the over-all quality of life is far superior to anywhere else. People living in the poverty line over here are enjoying free medical care, government subsidized education, & right to live as they want to live. Most people aren't CEO's of companies raking in billions of dollars but so what? Most people can buy cars, buy houses, and find jobs and even if they can't it ain't so bad; there has to be some losers somewhere. Is it a perfect system? No, is it the best we've got? Yes, and it's getting better and better as our quality of life increases and this goes for the rest of the world too.

EDIT: and I am not even including people who just led an imprudent life and find themselves in poverty.

Holding citizens without charge or trial.

How many countries has this been happening in? How much more is it happening than before for you to say 'human rights are going out the window' and is this your only example?

[Dagless]

First and foremost, there's a limited amount of resources and not everyone is going to be a 'winner'. Someone's going to end up with less and that's just the reality and point of running a sound economy.

Everyone might not be a winner, but everyone having basic necessities for life such as food, shelter, heat, light, are all more than viable.

What's a great system to you? One where everyone is equally rich or equally poor or equally middle class? That sounds great to me too now let's go put that into practice...I hope you get my point.

Not really, because a perfect system was never part of the argument. The topic is whether democracy and capitalism is good and successful. Keep up.

In a functioning society you are not going to have equal income for everyone; that isn't sound economics. Imperfect as it is, it still attracts flocks of people who don't seem to be running off to Saudi Arabia to live out their lives. Why do you think that is? Because everyone knows, even if they come to a western country like Canada where I live, the poverty level, as low as it is, is still better off to whatever they are escaping back home. Being poor in a western country isn't so bad compared to being poor in a non-western country and that's because the over-all quality of life is far superior to anywhere else. People living in the poverty line over here are enjoying free medical care, government subsidized education, & right to live as they want to live. Most people aren't CEO's of companies raking in billions of dollars but so what? Most people can buy cars, buy houses, and find jobs and even if they can't it ain't so bad; there has to be some losers somewhere. Is it a perfect system? No, is it the best we've got? Yes, and it's getting better and better as our quality of life increases and this goes for the rest of the world too.

Interesting that your argument essentially consists of describing the current economic system. So what if you get health care, and the poverty level is better than back home, how does that make it good or successful? Are you saying there is no way that places like the UK or Canada could have no poverty? In fact there is more than enough food in the world to go around but its the extravagant lifestyles of the few which cause problems to the many.
Your statement about it getting better and better is not an argument either. Cancers are becoming more and more treatable, that doesn't mean having cancer is a good thing does it?

How many countries has this been happening in? How much more is it happening than before for you to say 'human rights are going out the window' and is this your only example?

My only example happens to be the backbone of human rights. If you can't get that right how can you call the system sound?

[Lynx]

Everyone might not be a winner, but everyone having basic necessities for life such as food, shelter, heat, light, are all more than viable.

The point of the current system is that everyone who wants the necessities of life will have them; this is happening as you look at the quality of life and how much it increases (and has increased at the onset of capitalism!) over time. Nothing can make the world fixed in one go. It can take hundreds of years and the issue is vastly complicated.

Not really, because a perfect system was never part of the argument. The topic is whether democracy and capitalism is good and successful. Keep up.

Because you respond with vague comments like 'that doesn't sound like a great system to me' and then you cite how the top tier of the income bracket is less than the other tiers so I am forced to ask how you would want it. You're not going to get a system where everyone has equal wealth; that's called communism and it leads to problems. Rich is always going to be marginal, poverty has to be marginal (as it is in Western countires) but the bulk has to be well off and that IS happening. The point of the system, as I mentioned before, is to have even the losers of the country to not be so bad off and a lot of the times they aren't.

Interesting that your argument essentially consists of describing the current economic system. So what if you get health care, and the poverty level is better than back home, how does that make it good or successful? Are you saying there is no way that places like the UK or Canada could have no poverty? In fact there is more than enough food in the world to go around but its the extravagant lifestyles of the few which cause problems to the many.

First, there is no obligation for rich people to give away their wealth and forcing them to do so arguably leads to economic problems. Second, rich people who don't give away money do not cause any problems; the problems are already there they just don't do anything about it. Third, even if every rich person felt like giving away money away around the world, corrupt governments tend to kill the effort. For example Mugabe of Zimbabwe used to take donated food and give it to people who would vote for him. The problem isn't just in the hands of Greedy rich guys. Fourth, yes, my argument depends on describing the current system and how much better it is than everywhere else. I think appealing to how the system works better than its competitors is a powerful argument considering the point of politics and economics (macro anyway) is practical application. Anyone can criticize capitalism and democracy strictly on armchair arguments but the strength of a system is only demonstrated when its put it in use and nothing has topped the current system so far.

Your statement about it getting better and better is not an argument either. Cancers are becoming more and more treatable, that doesn't mean having cancer is a good thing does it?

.
The quality of life is increasing, people are getting richer and are able to have more stuff (one of the merits of capitalism) and that's a sign of being good & successful. Your cancer analogy is just begging the question.

My only example happens to be the backbone of human rights. If you can't get that right how can you call the system sound?

there's never Not going to be any corruption or abuse of human rights in a country. this is a fact that i concede however, If it's only one or 2 countries that do this during times of war then I don't think is a very convincing argument. I don;t think the system is perfect but for most people it works fine and most people's rights are guaranteed in the West.

[Dagless]

The point of the current system is that everyone who wants the necessities of life will have them;

I'm sure the people starving to death will be glad of the news.

this is happening as you look at the quality of life and how much it increases (and has increased at the onset of capitalism!) over time. Nothing can make the world fixed in one go. It can take hundreds of years and the issue is vastly complicated.

There are 2 responses to this:

1) Quality of life was increasing in Germany under Hitler. Does that mean Nazism and Fascism are good?
2) Longevity is increasing due to science and technology. You cannot say capitalism by itself has increased longevity, and longevity also cannot automatically mean quality of life is better.

Even if what you had written held water there are countries where the onset of capitalism made things far worse (the USSR is a great example). You can't pick and choose. If it is a good and successful thing then it should be good for everyone, not the select few.

Because you respond with vague comments like 'that doesn't sound like a great system to me' and then you cite how the top tier of the income bracket is less than the other tiers so I am forced to ask how you would want it. You're not going to get a system where everyone has equal wealth; that's called communism and it leads to problems. Rich is always going to be marginal, poverty has to be marginal (as it is in Western countires) but the bulk has to be well off and that IS happening. The point of the system, as I mentioned before, is to have even the losers of the country to not be so bad off and a lot of the times they aren't.

Nobody said they wanted everyone to have equal wealth (although I don't see this as a strictly bad idea), but everyone should not have to worry about food, etc. as mentioned earlier.

First, there is no obligation for rich people to give away their wealth and forcing them to do so arguably leads to economic problems.

Does tax lead to economic problems?

Second, rich people who don't give away money do not cause any problems; the problems are already there they just don't do anything about it.

Forcing people to give away money causes problems but letting them give it away doesn't? In addition are you going somewhere with this because it doesn't seem to help either side of the argument.

Third, even if every rich person felt like giving away money away around the world, corrupt governments tend to kill the effort. For example Mugabe of Zimbabwe used to take donated food and give it to people who would vote for him. The problem isn't just in the hands of Greedy rich guys.

I don't see what any of this has to do with our current topic but I'll keep reading...

Fourth, yes, my argument depends on describing the current system and how much better it is than everywhere else. I think appealing to how the system works better than its competitors is a powerful argument considering the point of politics and economics (macro anyway) is practical application. Anyone can criticize capitalism and democracy strictly on armchair arguments but the strength of a system is only demonstrated when its put it in use and nothing has topped the current system so far.

Once again, other than describing the current system and saying its easy to criticise you haven't actually proven anything. Let me make it easier for you - try writing this down on a piece of paper in front of you. This is what you need to reply with:

1) Capitalism is the best thing for its citizens (based on the absolute of being both good and successful) because... <insert logical reason>
2) Democracy is the best things for its citizens (based on the absolute of being both good and successful) because.... <insert logical reason>

To save more pointless posts, my response will pick on whether food, water, light, heat, shelter, can be provided to everyone, and if they are provided to everyone. This is without going into the exploitation opportunities capitalism provides. These reasons alone are enough to question if it is good and if it can be successful (not compared to other countries but if its successful for its own citizens).

The quality of life is increasing, people are getting richer and are able to have more stuff (one of the merits of capitalism) and that's a sign of being good & successful. Your cancer analogy is just begging the question.

People as a whole aren't getting richer, the rich are getting richer and the gap is widening. That's not a sign of goodness or success.

there's never Not going to be any corruption or abuse of human rights in a country.

What a fantastic argument. I think dictators should use this as their defence in court. "Your honour I know what I did was wrong but hey there's never NOT going to be any corruption or abuse of human rights. I was just making up the percentages". Oh well that's ok then.

[Lynx]

I'm sure the people starving to death will be glad of the news.



There are 2 responses to this:

1) Quality of life was increasing in Germany under Hitler. Does that mean Nazism and Fascism are good?
2) Longevity is increasing due to science and technology. You cannot say capitalism by itself has increased longevity, and longevity also cannot automatically mean quality of life is better.

1) How is killing a portion of your population increasing quality of life?
2) Quality of life increases as goods and services increase in production for the people living in a given state; capitalist countries tend to produce the most stuff for the most people (including technology that helps people live) and that increases quality of life. Also, capitalism creates the economic incentive for said technologies to produce at such a high rate through competition. I highly doubt you'd have Quad core processors without free market competition.

Even if what you had written held water there are countries where the onset of capitalism made things far worse (the USSR is a great example). You can't pick and choose. If it is a good and successful thing then it should be good for everyone, not the select few.

The USSR was a communist country that went bankrupt and literally fell apart. Its acceptance of capitalism is making it better again. It's a BRIC country.

Nobody said they wanted everyone to have equal wealth (although I don't see this as a strictly bad idea), but everyone should not have to worry about food, etc. as mentioned earlier.

agreed, and i think western countries are making the most progress in this regard for their citizens!

Does tax lead to economic problems?

I believe the question is 'how much tax?'

Forcing people to give away money causes problems but letting them give it away doesn't? In addition are you going somewhere with this because it doesn't seem to help either side of the argument.

One of the perceived arguments with high taxation is that it hinders entrepreneurship. Therefore, instead of high tax rates, if rich people were to give willingly then that adverse affect would not occur. And this is in response to your criticism of the system as creating problems elsewhere..

I don't see what any of this has to do with our current topic but I'll keep reading...

read above

Once again, other than describing the current system and saying its easy to criticise you haven't actually proven anything. Let me make it easier for you - try writing this down on a piece of paper in front of you. This is what you need to reply with:

1) Capitalism is the best thing for its citizens (based on the absolute of being both good and successful) because... <insert logical reason>
2) Democracy is the best things for its citizens (based on the absolute of being both good and successful) because.... <insert logical reason>

If the system works better than any other system in practice in terms of economic success and success in human rights, as you have failed to contradict, and if you cannot think of an alternative to capitalism that would actually confer the same advantages to states that have adopted it and reaped its benefits, then I don't understand what more you want. There are more human rights in Western countries than there are anywhere else; there is more financial success in western countries than anywhere else; you cannot think of a system that compete on these levels better than what the West is doing; therefore, you have no argument beyond armchair criticisms. Though, there are definitely problems in the system and they will hopefully be worked out as they have been over the past century.

To save more pointless posts, my response will pick on whether food, water, light, heat, shelter, can be provided to everyone, and if they are provided to everyone. This is without going into the exploitation opportunities capitalism provides. These reasons alone are enough to question if it is good and if it can be successful (not compared to other countries but if its successful for its own citizens).

I think most people are happy with the liberties they enjoy in the West and the financial opportunities available to them. The immigration alone speaks to that but if you have an idea for a new political system that can do all that the West can do & better then by all means explain away.

People as a whole aren't getting richer, the rich are getting richer and the gap is widening. That's not a sign of goodness or success.

http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/.3ndic.1t.4r...jsp?iid=26#M_3

What a fantastic argument. I think dictators should use this as their defence in court. "Your honour I know what I did was wrong but hey there's never NOT going to be any corruption or abuse of human rights. I was just making up the percentages". Oh well that's ok then.

It's absolutely true that human rights abuse occurs. Though, I don't think this undermines the argument when it's done to such a small group of people by such a small amount of countries? I mean, I in no way take the position that everything is perfect in the West; there are lots of problems and things go wrong, but this doesn't change the fact that it's still better than everywhere else..

[جوري]

2) Quality of life increases as goods and services increase in production for the people living in a given state; capitalist countries tend to produce the most stuff for the most people (including technology that helps people live) and that increases quality of life. Also, capitalism creates the economic incentive for said technologies to produce at such a high rate through competition. I highly doubt you'd have Quad core processors without free market competition.
..

1- Is that why the only 'Good Samaritans' left on the streets of your capitalist world are homeless who are stabbed and left to bleed to death while the rest walk by, and 90% of your products are made in China?

[Dagless]

1) How is killing a portion of your population increasing quality of life?
2) Quality of life increases as goods and services increase in production for the people living in a given state; capitalist countries tend to produce the most stuff for the most people (including technology that helps people live) and that increases quality of life. Also, capitalism creates the economic incentive for said technologies to produce at such a high rate through competition. I highly doubt you'd have Quad core processors without free market competition.

1) How are people starving to death increasing quality of life? As your opinion states; "someone's going to end up with less", therefore the Jews were the losers. However, for everyone else, the quality of life vastly improved. So does that describe a good and successful system in your eyes?
2) That's not true. Competition can exist without capitalism; don't you remember the cold war? Technology is also pushed forward because of need. If a society spends money on science and technology they will get the benefits. This is not a serious argument for capitalism.

I believe the question is 'how much tax?'
One of the perceived arguments with high taxation is that it hinders entrepreneurship. Therefore, instead of high tax rates, if rich people were to give willingly then that adverse affect would not occur. And this is in response to your criticism of the system as creating problems elsewhere..

I believe you are now just trying to confuse the topic.
I responded to your initial statement. Trying to change it by saying it depends on how much tax or describing the ins and outs of taxation is irrelevant.

If the system works better than any other system in practice in terms of economic success and success in human rights, as you have failed to contradict, and if you cannot think of an alternative to capitalism that would actually confer the same advantages to states that have adopted it and reaped its benefits, then I don't understand what more you want. There are more human rights in Western countries than there are anywhere else; there is more financial success in western countries than anywhere else; you cannot think of a system that compete on these levels better than what the West is doing; therefore, you have no argument beyond armchair criticisms. Though, there are definitely problems in the system and they will hopefully be worked out as they have been over the past century.

You're doing the same as you always do and describing the system. Just accept you don't have an argument. We aren't talking about if its better or worse than things in existence. The topic has been stated too many times to repeat. The system has big holes which can be seen by anyone. I have given you the simplest examples to refute without going into employment, exploitation or education. You still have not given a reasonable argument.
Saying something is absolutely good and successful because it is the only thing which exists or the best of a bad bunch is just ridiculous.

It's absolutely true that human rights abuse occurs. Though, I don't think this undermines the argument when it's done to such a small group of people by such a small amount of countries? I mean, I in no way take the position that everything is perfect in the West; there are lots of problems and things go wrong, but this doesn't change the fact that it's still better than everywhere else..

It's not a small group of people though. The majority of the world is terrorised and forced to follow the will of the few due to nothing more than military superiority.

I look forward to yet another definition of capitalism or perhaps a more detailed description of taxation this time? Why not branch out and describe how the internal combustion engine works? ;)

[Lynx]

1) How are people starving to death increasing quality of life? As your opinion states; "someone's going to end up with less", therefore the Jews were the losers. However, for everyone else, the quality of life vastly improved. So does that describe a good and successful system in your eyes?

Are you just arguing for the sake of argument? When my government goes downtown and destroys every shop owned by a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian and then proceeds to execute them, I will say you're not guilty of a false analogy. Anyway, yes, I think when the vast majority, even the poor, are richer than everywhere less then the system is experiencing success.

2) That's not true. Competition can exist without capitalism; don't you remember the cold war? Technology is also pushed forward because of need. If a society spends money on science and technology they will get the benefits. This is not a serious argument for capitalism.

Oh dear, what about the Cold war? the fact that the USSR was competing with USA in an arms and technological race? Of course you're going to get technological improvements but the competition of the free market sky rockets productivity and the creation of goods for the demand of the consumers. DO you honestly think USSR would have funded so much money in their research if they weren't competing with USA for 50 years? And I am guessing you are referring to the USSR if not you can clarify what you meant by the cold war reference.

I believe you are now just trying to confuse the topic.
I responded to your initial statement. Trying to change it by saying it depends on how much tax or describing the ins and outs of taxation is irrelevant.

I am not confusing anything. You asked if tax creates problems and it does; the prudent policy maker has to figure out how much to tax so it's not that simple as 'tax everyone and the poor will be saved'.

You're doing the same as you always do and describing the system. Just accept you don't have an argument. We aren't talking about if its better or worse than things in existence. The topic has been stated too many times to repeat. The system has big holes which can be seen by anyone. I have given you the simplest examples to refute without going into employment, exploitation or education. You still have not given a reasonable argument.
Saying something is absolutely good and successful because it is the only thing which exists or the best of a bad bunch is just ridiculous.

Oh, but I am talking about whether it's worse or better than everything else in existence. Critiquing the system for holes is all fine and dandy but I have never argued that what we have here is perfect; I've only argued that it's better than everywhere else and it is continuously succeeding. This is entirely an argument based on what is in practice & what can be put into practice. I don't see the point in arguing that it's imperfect; like you say, the holes are obvious and they're being worked on. This doesn't require any argument to show. If your position is that it has problems then I agree, it has problems but what's the point of discussing this if you can't offer an alternative? I do think it's getting better and research can show that; however, if this is the argument you want to pursue then I have nothing to add any further and we can agree to disagree.

It's not a small group of people though. The majority of the world is terrorised and forced to follow the will of the few due to nothing more than military superiority.

This is way too broad and unspecific to respond to and I can't see how it has anything to do with what was discussed earlier.

I look forward to yet another definition of capitalism or perhaps a more detailed description of taxation this time? Why not branch out and describe how the internal combustion engine works? ;)

Only if you ask me to :)


Lily:

1- Is that why the only 'Good Samaritans' left on the streets of your capitalist world are homeless who are stabbed and left to bleed to death while the rest walk by, and 90% of your products are made in China?

I am not psychologist enough to answer the first question; but isn't this something humans naturally tend to do? Bystander effect? Anyway, I don't think this is a product of capitalism or democracy so I can't see the relevance! I am sure there's plenty written on the topic in the journals for you to read up on.

What's wrong with having things made in China? Comparative advantage!

[جوري]

I am not psychologist enough to answer the first question; but isn't this something humans naturally tend to do? Bystander effect? Anyway, I don't think this is a product of capitalism or democracy so I can't see the relevance! I am sure there's plenty written on the topic in the journals for you to read up on.

I find it at odds to be 'human' and then neglect a fellow human.. yes that is a product of your capitalist world.. if you have no money you have no worth unfortunately-- do correct me if I am wrong with something worth while!

What's wrong with having things made in China? Comparative advantage!

I was commenting on your statement:

said technologies to produce at such a high rate through competition

if other folks are creating your products for you, then you can't really claim that there is competition, you've substituted quantity for quality.. let me know how that translates in your dictionary when something like this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23485723/

happens..

I mean it is nice and dandy if you want your kids to die a slow death from lead tainted toys..'toys are a luxury item' .. but what about life and or limb saving treatment?

I find nothing wrong with china, they are hard working, but they have no moral compass (godless).. the west is pretty much that way too were it not for liability, but they have managed to erase that liability factor when it comes to Muslims.. too bad they are not an impressive majority in the population for this level of negligence to be common place and comparable to China.

all the best

[Dagless]

Are you just arguing for the sake of argument?

Are you?

When my government goes downtown and destroys every shop owned by a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian and then proceeds to execute them, I will say you're not guilty of a false analogy. Anyway, yes, I think when the vast majority, even the poor, are richer than everywhere less then the system is experiencing success.

Germany was in relation to good and successful.

Oh dear, what about the Cold war? the fact that the USSR was competing with USA in an arms and technological race? Of course you're going to get technological improvements but the competition of the free market sky rockets productivity and the creation of goods for the demand of the consumers. DO you honestly think USSR would have funded so much money in their research if they weren't competing with USA for 50 years? And I am guessing you are referring to the USSR if not you can clarify what you meant by the cold war reference.

Yes, hence what I said was "Competition can exist without capitalism", which is something you've just confirmed. I don't know if they would have funded money into research or not, that's not the point. The point is they did not embrace capitalism and yet were still at the top.

Oh, but I am talking about whether it's worse or better than everything else in existence. Critiquing the system for holes is all fine and dandy but I have never argued that what we have here is perfect; I've only argued that it's better than everywhere else and it is continuously succeeding. This is entirely an argument based on what is in practice & what can be put into practice. I don't see the point in arguing that it's imperfect; like you say, the holes are obvious and they're being worked on. This doesn't require any argument to show. If your position is that it has problems then I agree, it has problems but what's the point of discussing this if you can't offer an alternative? I do think it's getting better and research can show that; however, if this is the argument you want to pursue then I have nothing to add any further and we can agree to disagree.

GOOD
SUCCESSFUL

[Lynx]

I find it at odds to be 'human' and then neglect a fellow human.. yes that is a product of your capitalist world.. if you have no money you have no worth unfortunately-- do correct me if I am wrong with something worth while!

This is a psychological phenomenon and I doubt your hypothesis about it being related to having money or not.

I was commenting on your statement:


if other folks are creating your products for you, then you can't really claim that there is competition, you've substituted quantity for quality.. let me know how that translates in your dictionary when something like this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23485723/

happens..

What does this have to do with competition?

I mean it is nice and dandy if you want your kids to die a slow death from lead tainted toys..'toys are a luxury item' .. but what about life and or limb saving treatment?

I find nothing wrong with china, they are hard working, but they have no moral compass (godless).. the west is pretty much that way too were it not for liability, but they have managed to erase that liability factor when it comes to Muslims.. too bad they are not an impressive majority in the population for this level of negligence to be common place and comparable to China.

all the best

I don't know where you live but over here the government can't kill people for having troublesome religious beliefs like the Chinese government does. Muslims enjoy the same rights as everyone else.

[Lynx]

Are you?



Germany was in relation to good and successful.

No it wasn't because people were being shipped off to concentration camps. You need human rights to be good & money to be successful.

Yes, hence what I said was "Competition can exist without capitalism", which is something you've just confirmed. I don't know if they would have funded money into research or not, that's not the point. The point is they did not embrace capitalism and yet were still at the top.

And then they failed which shows their system does not lead to success and only ends in failure whereas capitalist systems don't.

And of course competition exists, that's a natural byproduct of scarcity. The point of what I was saying is that capitalism uses competition for the benefit of everyone.

GOOD
SUCCESSFUL

my summary: a system S is successful & good if and only if it is better than its competitors and no new system S2 can be thought of to replace S where 'replace' means to procure at least the same benefits as S without as much disadvantages as S.

[Argamemnon]

Westerners are obsessed with competition, they see everything in life as a brutal competition and worship power and money. Those who are weak are to be bombed and invaded and have no right to complain. They believe there is no good or wrong, only the powerful and the weak.

[Lynx]

Westerners are obsessed with competition, they see everything in life as a brutal competition and worship power and money. Those who are weak are to be bombed and invaded and have no right to complain. They believe there is no good or wrong, only the powerful and the weak.

Nah, I don't think so.

[جوري]

This is a psychological phenomenon and I doubt your hypothesis about it being related to having money or not.

It isn't a hypothesis, it is a fact, simulate death on the streets somewhere in the middle east and then in the west and let's compare how fast folks will get to your aid.. unfortunately the respond time here is assessed solely based on your capitalistic system.. there is no regard to human life outside of worldly value!

What does this have to do with competition?

Where does competition lie if foreign labor is doing your work for you?

I don't know where you live but over here the government can't kill people for having troublesome religious beliefs like the Chinese government does. Muslims enjoy the same rights as everyone else.

Really is that why they are held without trial at gitmo and downtown Manhattan? :lol:

you tickle me and you are nothing if not persistent on standards that simply don't exist.. and won't exist even if you close your eyes really hard and concentrate!

all the best

[Dagless]

No it wasn't because people were being shipped off to concentration camps.

That was the point. Quality of life was better under the Nazi's and it is better under capitalism. It doesn't mean either is good.

You need human rights to be good & money to be successful.

No, that's your opinion. There is no evidence for this.

And then they failed which shows their system does not lead to success and only ends in failure whereas capitalist systems don't.

Both statements here are wrong. They failed? Cuba seems to be doing ok. Capitalist systems don't fail? Erm... The Roman Empire anyone?

And of course competition exists, that's a natural byproduct of scarcity. The point of what I was saying is that capitalism uses competition for the benefit of everyone.

That doesn't make it good.

my summary: a system S is successful & good if and only if it is better than its competitors and no new system S2 can be thought of to replace S where 'replace' means to procure at least the same benefits as S without as much disadvantages as S.

This is your own definition. Most people would say a system is good and successful for its people if all its people benefit, are happy, and there are no losers. A system with holes, and flaws, open to exploitation of its own people cannot be completely good or completely successful.

[Lynx]

That was the point. Quality of life was better under the Nazi's and it is better under capitalism. It doesn't mean either is good.

No, the quality of life wasn't good under the Nazis. When the government is creating concentration camps and sending its citizens there the quality of life can't be said to be good. Nazi Germany is a really poor example.

No, that's your opinion. There is no evidence for this.

Yeah, 'success' and 'good' are not objective terms; they're value judgments. I am defining these words in light of the OP. If you have a different critiera for good and successful that's fine.

Both statements here are wrong. They failed? Cuba seems to be doing ok. Capitalist systems don't fail? Erm... The Roman Empire anyone?

I didn't say Cuba failed I said the USSR failed. Anyway, Cuba is experiencing growth as it's coming out of socialism. There's more private industry and trade with capitalist countries (i.e., adopting free market policies) than before and there's growth resulting from that. They also have a huge underground economy which I am guessing results from a restrictive market. Nevertheless, Cuba is still really poor and it's nothing compared to the Western countries. Moreover, they have tons of human rights abuse which makes it hard to say Cuba is 'doing okay'. Also, consider why China, supposedly a socialist state, has essentially turned its market free.

I don't know why you're citing the Roman Empire as a capitalist state; what they practiced is vastly different from what is practiced now. First, they had tons of slaves which ruins the labor market needed for capitalism (this is why Lincoln freed the slaves: because it's not economically viable). Second, they did not have the production capacity needed for a successful capitalist economy. Third, Adam Smith wrote the book on the topic 1776 much after the Romans came and went and this book gives the more polished blue print on how to run a free market.

That doesn't make it good.

Okay.

This is your own definition. Most people would say a system is good and successful for its people if all its people benefit, are happy, and there are no losers. A system with holes, and flaws, open to exploitation of its own people cannot be completely good or completely successful.

I think most people would define good and successful as how I've defined it. Not only have I not claimed the system practiced in the west to be 'completely good' or 'completely successful', I've repeatedly pointed out that it isn't. Anyway, good and successful are subjective terms and I see that your definition of good and successful are different from mine and so I don't see any point in continuing the argument when our fundamental definitions differ. We have to agree to disagree I guess. FYI the system you describe is impossible since scarcity exists; if we had infinite of everything you'd have what you want and there would be no need for any economic system at all. Good luck.

[Lynx]

It isn't a hypothesis, it is a fact, simulate death on the streets somewhere in the middle east and then in the west and let's compare how fast folks will get to your aid.. unfortunately the respond time here is assessed solely based on your capitalistic system.. there is no regard to human life outside of worldly value!

first of all you're reaping the benefits of this horrific capitalist system. second of all, fact according to what study?

Where does competition lie if foreign labor is doing your work for you?

imagine you run a business. you can either hire someone for 20/hour or 5/hour from china. which do you think creates more profit? Now you might say, well I will hire from my home town just for the heck of it so i will choose to pay 20/hour. But guess what? some company down the street that is competing in your market decides to hire from China and sell his product for less...you just got lost. That's an outline of the relationship between competition and foreign labor (grossly oversimplified ).

Really is that why they are held without trial at gitmo and downtown Manhattan? :lol:

What?! All muslims are locked up in downtown manhattan?! However did you find access to a PC?!!

[جوري]

first of all you're reaping the benefits of this horrific capitalist system. second of all, fact according to what study?

Pls. do tell of the benefits when I spent the majority of my life and up to now buried in books and debt, only to pay half of my salary to uncle sam which will ultimately be funneled to the cockroach zionist state or to fund some illegal war.. plus deal with people who are better fitted as anatomical gifts than productive human beings? and with everyone just waiting for the moment you have one lapse in judgment so they can milk you for all you've got?

imagine you run a business. you can either hire someone for 20/hour or 5/hour from china. which do you think creates more profit? Now you might say, well I will hire from my home town just for the heck of it so i will choose to pay 20/hour. But guess what? some company down the street that is competing in your market decides to hire from China and sell his product for less...you just got lost. That's an outline of the relationship between competition and foreign labor (grossly oversimplified ).

This isn't news.. other countries suffer from this.. even those not capitalistic..



here is a craft that goes back to the Fatimid empire that has been made into a joke by the china market.. can I blame the big cheeses who just want to make money? In fact I blame the consumer.. but that derails from the original topic..

What?! All muslims are locked up in downtown manhattan?! However did you find access to a PC?!!

Where did I say 'All' Muslims are locked up? maybe pretty soon we'll all have to wear some scarlet letter type object to identity ourselves.. but this is certainly the reality for many a Muslims in the west!

all the best

[Lynx]

Pls. do tell of the benefits when I spent the majority of my life and up to now buried in books and debt, only to pay half of my salary to uncle sam which will ultimately be funneled to the cockroach zionist state or to fund some illegal war.. plus deal with people who are better fitted as anatomical gifts than productive human beings? and with everyone just waiting for the moment you have one lapse in judgment so they can milk you for all you've got?

Are you honestly telling me that your life is so miserable you can't think of a single benefit? Seriously? You live in New York, you make enough to have almost half your income taxed so I find that hard to believe. I am sure there are people who would kill to have had the chance to go to school as much as you have, even at the cost of student debt & dealing with annoying people. Do you sometimes go without food or can you afford food everyday? Do you live in a gutter or do you have a warm bed to sleep in every night? I think you're being a tad ungrateful. But of course I have no idea how you live. For all I know you sleep in a hospital in the janitor's closet because we all know how bad those student debts get! Maybe you should go somewhere else where it's more capitalistic (not taxing you).

This isn't news.. other countries suffer from this.. even those not capitalistic..

Well the guy in the video seemed alright. The Chinese lanterns weren't impacting his sales or so the video said. Anyway, the market demands Chinese products only if the consumers get more benefits from the Chinese product than the Egyptian one (for example). consumers have every right to buy whatever the heck they want to buy and if sellers and merchants can't keep up then they will be eliminated and the superior product will take over; this is how progress is made.

here is a craft that goes back to the Fatimid empire that has been made into a joke by the china market.. can I blame the big cheeses who just want to make money? In fact I blame the consumer.. but that derails from the original topic..

Your quite right, you can't blame people for wanting to make money but similarly, you can't blame people for wanting a bargain! Miracle of markets!

Where did I say 'All' Muslims are locked up? maybe pretty soon we'll all have to wear some scarlet letter type object to identity ourselves.. but this is certainly the reality for many a Muslims in the west!

all the best

Well there must be a significant number of Muslims, numbering in the millions perhaps or at least more than a 100,000 that have been arbitrarily locked up for you to disagree that Muslims enjoy the same rights as non-Muslims. I know many Muslims and none of them are being locked up or threatened to be locked up or anything like that. Perhaps you've been locked up before? Or some close family or relatives of yours have been locked up? I live in Canada so maybe it's an American thing to lock up Muslims so maybe that's why I haven't heard of thousands of Muslims being held downtown Manhattan? Enlighten me please. I am being sarcastic btw, you're obviously exaggerating the problem; we both know 99% of Muslims are free to live their lives and practice how they want to practice.

[جوري]

Are you honestly telling me that your life is so miserable you can't think of a single benefit? Seriously? You live in New York, you make enough to have almost half your income taxed so I find that hard to believe. I am sure there are people who would kill to have had the chance to go to school as much as you have, even at the cost of student debt & dealing with annoying people. Do you sometimes go without food or can you afford food everyday? Do you live in a gutter or do you have a warm bed to sleep in every night? I think you're being a tad ungrateful. But of course I have no idea how you live. For all I know you sleep in a hospital in the janitor's closet because we all know how bad those student debts get! Maybe you should go somewhere else where it's more capitalistic (not taxing you).

I am sure there are plenty who would trade their life with me, I am just not sure how long they can sustain it?.. some folks always want from the end without any effort.. there were days when I was sick and had insurance, there were days when I went without food, yes because I was charged to the max and didn't want my parents or family to be burdened anymore than they were...much of my sickness I treated myself until one day I had an anaphylactic shock from a left over antibiotic I was treating myself with, and you want to know what my bell came out to? meanwhile I have people come in every monday or thursday because they know exactly how to abuse the system and get a free meal.. Janitor's closet sometimes are a place to get some shut eye, try going 34 hours without and then get a beating from your preceptor's there after because they are having a bad day..and sitting for a series of four 9 hour exams, where if your grade is anything less than stellar then you get the pit of interviews at malignant hospitals, if at all. yeah, it is possible to be a doctor in the U.S and out of a job and in debt!
of course you'd close with that famous statement with 'go somewhere else' as if you were sustaining my existence and education? well I'd gladly go to an Islamic country if indeed they were Islamic and any better!

Well the guy in the video seemed alright. The Chinese lanterns weren't impacting his sales or so the video said. Anyway, the market demands Chinese products only if the consumers get more benefits from the Chinese product than the Egyptian one (for example). consumers have every right to buy whatever the heck they want to buy and if sellers and merchants can't keep up then they will be eliminated and the superior product will take over; this is how progress is made.

no progress is made by buying junk and putting hard working individuals out of work because you feel it better to save a couple of bucks.. and don't get me wrong, I am very impressed with the chinese work ethics but that is as far as it goes!

Well there must be a significant number of Muslims, numbering in the millions perhaps or at least more than a 100,000 that have been arbitrarily locked up for you to disagree that Muslims enjoy the same rights as non-Muslims. I know many Muslims and none of them are being locked up or threatened to be locked up or anything like that. Perhaps you've been locked up before? Or some close family or relatives of yours have been locked up? I live in Canada so maybe it's an American thing to lock up Muslims so maybe that's why I haven't heard of thousands of Muslims being held downtown Manhattan? Enlighten me please. I am being sarcastic btw, you're obviously exaggerating the problem; we both know 99% of Muslims are free to live their lives and practice how they want to practice.

I am not exaggerating the problem, I am aghast that it happens at all, one person illegally imprisoned without trial is bad enough whether in Manhattan or Gitmo-- you seem to be under the impression that if it doesn't concern you and your next of kin personally that, there isn't a problem. Or is happening in isolation and won't impact the whole.. you are in fact very wrong.. it is just a matter of time.. depends on how tight or widely spaced this country comes with the next usama tape or bombing in some city street and I am pretty sure after the Gaza fiasco that they are working on something as we speak!

all the best

[Dagless]

No, the quality of life wasn't good under the Nazis. When the government is creating concentration camps and sending its citizens there the quality of life can't be said to be good. Nazi Germany is a really poor example.

I think its a great example. The Jews were a minority group, just as the poor are now. In your own words, the majority were happy.

Yeah, 'success' and 'good' are not objective terms; they're value judgments. I am defining these words in light of the OP. If you have a different critiera for good and successful that's fine.

Not in the context we are describing them. For something to be good for the people it should be good for all people.

I didn't say Cuba failed I said the USSR failed. Anyway, Cuba is experiencing growth as it's coming out of socialism. There's more private industry and trade with capitalist countries (i.e., adopting free market policies) than before and there's growth resulting from that. They also have a huge underground economy which I am guessing results from a restrictive market. Nevertheless, Cuba is still really poor and it's nothing compared to the Western countries. Moreover, they have tons of human rights abuse which makes it hard to say Cuba is 'doing okay'. Also, consider why China, supposedly a socialist state, has essentially turned its market free.

I said Cuba is doing ok, I did not ask for a wiki entry for Cuba. It is still in existence, and has a growing gdp - hence is doing ok.
Did I mention China? I don't recall that. How about Sweden? I hear the snow there is quite lovely.

I don't know why you're citing the Roman Empire as a capitalist state; what they practiced is vastly different from what is practiced now. First, they had tons of slaves which ruins the labor market needed for capitalism (this is why Lincoln freed the slaves: because it's not economically viable). Second, they did not have the production capacity needed for a successful capitalist economy. Third, Adam Smith wrote the book on the topic 1776 much after the Romans came and went and this book gives the more polished blue print on how to run a free market.

The Roman Empire was run on capitalist principles. We are not discussing slavery or what they had or did not have. They were classed as an early capitalist market. The end.

Okay.

Finally you agree. That's it, no need to go on. You've accepted that doesn't make it good.

We have to agree to disagree I guess. FYI the system you describe is impossible since scarcity exists; if we had infinite of everything you'd have what you want and there would be no need for any economic system at all. Good luck.

You don't need infinite everything to have the basic necessities for life. Any western country could eradicate poverty if they wished.

[Lynx]

I think its a great example. The Jews were a minority group, just as the poor are now. In your own words, the majority were happy.

Go look into why people are poor and then go look into why Hitler sent Jews to concentration camps then re-read all my posts and tell me if you still think it's a 'great' example.

Not in the context we are describing them. For something to be good for the people it should be good for all people.

When you say 'good for everyone' the implications are vast. I do think the system we have is good for everyone; people can practice what religion they want, people are enjoying an unparalleled growth in economy. Even the poor are well off and have lots of opportunities. This is what I cal good but your definition of good is somethign else and like I said, it's subjective and there's no point in arguing over it. You can think what you want but you'll still be living in a Western country :(

I said Cuba is doing ok, I did not ask for a wiki entry for Cuba. It is still in existence, and has a growing gdp - hence is doing ok.
Did I mention China? I don't recall that. How about Sweden? I hear the snow there is quite lovely.

You don't know what you're talking about at all.

The Roman Empire was run on capitalist principles. We are not discussing slavery or what they had or did not have. They were classed as an early capitalist market. The end.

You don't know what you're talking about at all.

Finally you agree. That's it, no need to go on. You've accepted that doesn't make it good.

Yes, I've accepted that we have different definitions of successful and good and arguing about it is pointless.

You don't need infinite everything to have the basic necessities for life. Any western country could eradicate poverty if they wished.

You don't know what you're talking about at all.

[Dagless]

Go look into why people are poor and then go look into why Hitler sent Jews to concentration camps then re-read all my posts and tell me if you still think it's a 'great' example.

It's a great example.

When you say 'good for everyone' the implications are vast. I do think the system we have is good for everyone; people can practice what religion they want, people are enjoying an unparalleled growth in economy. Even the poor are well off and have lots of opportunities. This is what I cal good but your definition of good is somethign else and like I said, it's subjective and there's no point in arguing over it. You can think what you want but you'll still be living in a Western country :(

Then why are you arguing? I don't think where I live has anything to do with this.

You don't know what you're talking about at all.

Another great argument.

You don't know what you're talking about at all.

You can keep putting your fingers in your ears and saying it but it won't make it any more true.

Yes, I've accepted that we have different definitions of successful and good and arguing about it is pointless.

Yet you persist.

You don't know what you're talking about at all.

This is doubly funny coming from someone who routinely comments on issues he has no clue about.

[Lynx]

I am sure there are plenty who would trade their life with me, I am just not sure how long they can sustain it?.. some folks always want from the end without any effort.. there were days when I was sick and had insurance, there were days when I went without food, yes because I was charged to the max and didn't want my parents or family to be burdened anymore than they were...much of my sickness I treated myself until one day I had an anaphylactic shock from a left over antibiotic I was treating myself with, and you want to know what my bell came out to? meanwhile I have people come in every monday or thursday because they know exactly how to abuse the system and get a free meal.. Janitor's closet sometimes are a place to get some shut eye, try going 34 hours without and then get a beating from your preceptor's there after because they are having a bad day..and sitting for a series of four 9 hour exams, where if your grade is anything less than stellar then you get the pit of interviews at malignant hospitals, if at all. yeah, it is possible to be a doctor in the U.S and out of a job and in debt!
of course you'd close with that famous statement with 'go somewhere else' as if you were sustaining my existence and education? well I'd gladly go to an Islamic country if indeed they were Islamic and any better!

I do feel for you. If it was possible I'd wish everyone would have a decent life without many problems. I just don't think people in the West, unless they're homless, should ever be ungrateful to what they have. However, I don't want to pry into your private life...& USA health care always sucked.

no progress is made by buying junk and putting hard working individuals out of work because you feel it better to save a couple of bucks.. and don't get me wrong, I am very impressed with the chinese work ethics but that is as far as it goes!

Just cause something is made in China does not necessarily mean it's junk. Lots of quality things are made in China. Also, yes, hard working individuals are out of work when they are outcompeted by a superior product but in his place a bunch of other hard working people find work. It's progress because whenever something new enters a market and beats its competitors it's usually because they've found a faster way or cheaper way to produce something which means efficiency goes up.

I am not exaggerating the problem, I am aghast that it happens at all, one person illegally imprisoned without trial is bad enough whether in Manhattan or Gitmo-- you seem to be under the impression that if it doesn't concern you and your next of kin personally that, there isn't a problem. Or is happening in isolation and won't impact the whole.. you are in fact very wrong.. it is just a matter of time.. depends on how tight or widely spaced this country comes with the next usama tape or bombing in some city street and I am pretty sure after the Gaza fiasco that they are working on something as we speak!

First, I agree if it happens once then that's horrible. Second this happens way too uncommonly to be a problem IMO & I doubt its arbitrary imprisonment-Muslims as a group aren't targeted but certain people are. The latter part of your post is a slippery slope argument and we can speculate as to what will happen. Of course, I think the bulk of the problem is within USA and not in other western countries which shows a peculiarity in the American system not of democracy/capitalism in general.

[جوري]

I do feel for you. If it was possible I'd wish everyone would have a decent life without many problems. I just don't think people in the West, unless they're homless, should ever be ungrateful to what they have. However, I don't want to pry into your private life...& USA health care always sucked.

if that were said in cynicism then all I'll say is that you don't know anything about my life, my personal losses whether in loved ones or years lost, financial, health wise or or.. further this isn't about how the west is paradisaical compared to the middle east or china or, they all equally suck.. they all have a malignant system meant to cater to those who have a seat on top maybe the w hores of guys and gals in the entertainment industry but that is as far as it goes.. if you want a 'comfortable' life then you'll have to work like an ass for it and then find yourself dead one day not knowing why and how it slipped away so fast... and that is where most people I know reside.. the other half are either trying hard and can't get out of the dumps or are living off the the ones working like an ass while chanting how they hate foreigners, and how their jobs were stolen as if they could reach said positions to begin with, who would deny them except that they are so good at abusing the system and unfortunately the only talent they have truly mastered? it is a system meant to oppress the masses in one form or another with false worldly lure, usury, and cheap thrills, ponzi schemes, and God forbid you should speak out against it, there is no telling which ghetto you'll end up in and what distasteful warfare will be unleashed upon you, your kin, your entire religio .. you want to speak about a 'true sign of the time' this is it right there.. bird brains with carpet bombs! ...

for what it is worth, I have never been ungrateful for what I have, but what I have are the blessings of God not of the east or west, and we thank him in the lean years and are patient in the difficult ones whatever the ratio.. I consider myself the servant of God on his earth and I desire that God would make me an instrument to do good work no more no less.. for our existence here must be tempered with the fact that it is a temporary stay.. as the prophet PBUH said

"My similitude and that of the life of this world is that of a wayfarer who took a rest at mid-day under a shade of a tree and then left it." (Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and al-Hakim)
"Be in this world like a stranger, or a wayfarer." (Bukhari)

Just cause something is made in China does not necessarily mean it's junk. Lots of quality things are made in China. Also, yes, hard working individuals are out of work when they are outcompeted by a superior product but in his place a bunch of other hard working people find work. It's progress because whenever something new enters a market and beats its competitors it's usually because they've found a faster way or cheaper way to produce something which means efficiency goes up.

the majority of stuff from China is junk, if you want quality good from china then you can want quality goods from your fellow countrymen.. do ask the chinese why they are having little colonies here and there, in countries as odd as Tanzania and what their agenda is, it is really no different than the western one sans the sanctimoniousness of feigning it is god ordained!

First, I agree if it happens once then that's horrible. Second this happens way too uncommonly to be a problem IMO & I doubt its arbitrary imprisonment-Muslims as a group aren't targeted but certain people are. The latter part of your post is a slippery slope argument and we can speculate as to what will happen. Of course, I think the bulk of the problem is within USA and not in other western countries which shows a peculiarity in the American system not of democracy/capitalism in general.

Ok, thank you!


peace

p.s for what it is worth and even though I don't see eye to eye with you on many things, I think you are generally a decent fellow.. I do hope you make Islam your way of life before it is too late..

[Lynx]

if that were said in cynicism then all I'll say is that you don't know anything about my life, my personal losses whether in loved ones or years lost, financial, health wise or or.. further this isn't about how the west is paradisaical compared to the middle east or china or, they all equally suck.. they all have a malignant system meant to cater to those who have a seat on top maybe the w hores of guys and gals in the entertainment industry but that is as far as it goes.. if you want a 'comfortable' life then you'll have to work like an ass for it and then find yourself dead one day not knowing why and how it slipped away so fast... and that is where most people I know reside.. the other half are either trying hard and can't get out of the dumps or are living off the the ones working like an ass while chanting how they hate foreigners, and how their jobs were stolen as if they could reach said positions to begin with, who would deny them except that they are so good at abusing the system and unfortunately the only talent they have truly mastered? it is a system meant to oppress the masses in one form or another with false worldly lure, usury, and cheap thrills, ponzi schemes, and God forbid you should speak out against it, there is no telling which ghetto you'll end up in and what distasteful warfare will be unleashed upon you, your kin, your entire religio .. you want to speak about a 'true sign of the time' this is it right there.. bird brains with carpet bombs! ...

for what it is worth, I have never been ungrateful for what I have, but what I have are the blessings of God not of the east or west, and we thank him in the lean years and are patient in the difficult ones whatever the ratio.. I consider myself the servant of God on his earth and I desire that God would make me an instrument to do good work no more no less.. for our existence here must be tempered with the fact that it is a temporary stay.. as the prophet PBUH said

"My similitude and that of the life of this world is that of a wayfarer who took a rest at mid-day under a shade of a tree and then left it." (Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and al-Hakim)
"Be in this world like a stranger, or a wayfarer." (Bukhari)



the majority of stuff from China is junk, if you want quality good from china then you can want quality goods from your fellow countrymen.. do ask the chinese why they are having little colonies here and there, in countries as odd as Tanzania and what their agenda is, it is really no different than the western one sans the sanctimoniousness of feigning it is god ordained!



Ok, thank you!


peace

I didn't mean any cynicism or sarcasm. I strongly believe in what it says down there on my signature: everyone's fighting a hard battle and i don't want to add on to anyone's burden ( I make some exceptions here & there). I am sorry to hear about your predicament. I guess it's a matter of perspective; neither me nor my family are well off, or even close to middle class, yet I still believe we are lucky to be here and get what we do get. But everyone leads a different life and has different goals and ideals.

p.s for what it is worth and even though I don't see eye to eye with you on many things, I think you are generally a decent fellow.. I do hope you make Islam your way of life before it is too late..

that's kind of you. i wish for you the best in your goals and hope that your hard work pays off sooner rather than later.

[جوري]

I didn't mean any cynicism or sarcasm. I strongly believe in what it says down there on my signature: everyone's fighting a hard battle and i don't want to add on to anyone's burden ( I make some exceptions here & there). I am sorry to hear about your predicament. I guess it's a matter of perspective; neither me nor my family are well off, or even close to middle class, yet I still believe we are lucky to be here and get what we do get. But everyone leads a different life and has different goals and ideals.

my family struggled very much too but I was blessed with parents who believed in the value of good education.. Everyone I can think of in my family has had some horrible calamity befall them, my grandmother was widowed at 36, and my grandfather left her with 7 children and a business partner who stole his factory after his death.. you can imagine a house wife's predicament in raising children the youngest who happened to have been 2 at the time of my grandfather's death, and still managed in spite of everything that happened to raise engineers and teachers and two diplomats.. one those diplomats happened to have been my aunt who in her teenage yrs was working moving bricks and cement products for some contractors for 'pennies' and enrolling in night school.. and so on and so on, where you'd think there is no life after today, yet a new day comes with its own hopes and often times miseries.

that is why I am telling you, I have positively zero tolerance for the lazy and whiny type and those with a strange sense of entitlement which is definitely a 'western syndrome'

that's kind of you. i wish for you the best in your goals and hope that your hard work pays off sooner rather than later.

Thanks I wish you well.. I don't know what is keeping you, you are already an 89% decent human being, why not crown that with perfection?
anyhow you should go it at your own pace..

all the best

[Argamemnon]

that is why I am telling you, I have positively zero tolerance for the lazy and whiny type and those with a strange sense of entitlement which is definitely a 'western syndrome'

true, but it's not always easy to tell who is whiny and who is seriously struggling through no fault of their own.

:w:

[جوري]

true, but it's not always easy to tell who is whiny and who is seriously struggling through no fault of their own.

:w:

you are right ,.. on the net it is difficult.. real life it isn't. but the moral even though a total derailment from the topic.. is that if people can make it from homelessness to Harvard (and I have posted two articles about two such girls) or from rags literally (I won't say to riches) but to a decent comfortable and fairly prestigious social status, then there is no reason for others to try to overcome the little blebs on the road that come their way.. we aren't in paradise.. life is a struggle and for the most part through difficult circumstances which we must do our best to overcome.. you've heard the adage 'If it doesn't kill you it can only make you stronger'-- I am a firm believer in that!

and Allah swt knows best

:w:

[Lynx]

that is why I am telling you, I have positively zero tolerance for the lazy and whiny type and those with a strange sense of entitlement which is definitely a 'western syndrome'

the abdunance of wealth in the west has certainly created lazy fat people.