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FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 12:39 AM
Simple question (or is it?)
Prove Allah exists.
No scripture, no theoretical nor pragmatic arguments. Show me some EMPIRICAL evidence!
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Life_Is_Short
06-11-2010, 01:12 AM
We've had this debate like a million times.

Are you a new atheist?
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FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 01:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Life_Is_Short
We've had this debate like a million times.

Are you a new atheist?
I've been an atheist since I was 13. I am 19 now.
I admire all of the outspoken Atheists (Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Stenger, and Hitchens.)
Reply

جوري
06-11-2010, 01:30 AM
how about you prove that God doesn't exist? you have heard of the null hypothesis?
if not I have covered it quite extensively here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...ml#post1337181

I'll be waiting for your rock solid data which will most assuredly defy all the laws of logic and statistics!

all the best
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FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 01:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
how about you prove that God doesn't exist? you have heard of the null hypothesis?
if not I have covered it quite extensively here:

I'll be waiting for your rock solid data which will most assuredly defy all the laws of logic and statistics!

all the best
1. It's impossible to prove a negative. Since you are making the claim (that god exists) the burden of proof is on you.
But I do have an argument, here it is:

God supposedly gave man free will.
People whom are mentally ill or mentally retarded have limited control over their actions or impulses.
A mentally ill person in a comatose state or just a normal person in a coma have no free will.
Being that not everybody has free will over the actions of their bodies or the thoughts in their heads not all people were given free will.
If all people do not have free will then god could have not given all people free will.
We only sin because we have free will but since all people do not have free will sin does not exist
Reply

Candle
06-11-2010, 01:53 AM
My Philosophy proff would beat you for being lazy. Assert a proposition or narrow your request and we shall talk. Most people start with something big, like cosmology. Or we can begin with something small, like quantum physics. Luckily, my ethics professor was a theist. :statisfie:

As far back as we know--even before the historical record--humans have believed in a supernatural, universal force we oft call God. It seems the burden of proof is on you.
Reply

جوري
06-11-2010, 01:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
1. It's impossible to prove a negative. Since you are making the claim (that god exists) the burden of proof is on you.
But I do have an argument, here it is:
well you are in fact starting at a 'double negative' you've neither proven that God doesn't exist nor have you given a plausible explanation for everything in existence in a logical concise and as you say 'empirical evidence' based manner!

again, I'll be waiting, and I request that you in fact read in full how you go about doing a research of this caliber!
God supposedly gave man free will.
People whom are mentally ill or mentally retarded have limited control over their actions or impulses.
A mentally ill person in a comatose state or just a normal person in a coma have no free will.
Being that not everybody has free will over the actions of their bodies or the thoughts in their heads not all people were given free will.
If all people do not have free will then god could have not given all people free will.
We only sin because we have free will but since all people do not have free will sin does not exist
This is irrelevant drivel.. we are not discussing specifics of religion when you in fact don't know whether God does or doesn't exist and what that entails for mankind!

all the best
Reply

FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 02:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Candle
As far back as we know--even before the historical record--humans have believed in a supernatural, universal force we oft call God. It seems the burden of proof is on you.
As stated previously, it's impossible to disprove a negative. The burden of proof is on the ones making the claim that something exists (in this case, Allah.)

Your argument that most humans have believed in the supernatural / god is an appeal to belief, which is a logical fallacy.
Just because a lot of people believe in something does not make it true.

In my opinion, the fact that all cultures have had some sort of religion or mythology is proof that they're all wrong (they can't all be right, because they contradict each other.) To me the fact that humans have always had some sort of religion/mythology is proof that it is a part of human nature, nothing more.
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Insecured soul
06-11-2010, 02:07 AM
Look around you man the world the universe.... everything..................... its enough to know god exist.
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FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 02:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
well you are in fact starting at a 'double negative' you've neither proven that God doesn't exist nor have you given a plausible explanation for everything in existence in a logical concise and as you say 'empirical evidence' based manner!

again, I'll be waiting, and I request that you in fact read in full how you go about doing a research of this caliber!
This is irrelevant drivel.. we are not discussing specifics of religion when you in fact don't know whether God does or doesn't exist and what that entails for mankind!

all the best
I can't prove that god doesn't exist. Just like I can't prove that Santa Clause doesn't exist or that unicorns don't exist or that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, etc.
Again, it's impossible to disprove a negative.
Do you have any proof that Allah exists?

I don't know what created the universe and I never claimed to. However, I don't believe it was created by Allah, obviously.
You are creating a red herring because you are trying to divert attention from the topic at hand.

My argument against Allah isn't drivel. This is a Muslim forum. Muslims believe that Allah gave man freewill and I gave an argument against it.
Reply

Candle
06-11-2010, 02:11 AM
We only sin because we have free will but since all people do not have free will sin does not exist
Things which sin. Q
Things with free will. R
Things without free will. P

1. All Q are R
2. P are not Q
3. ?

That argument doesn't even reconstruct properly.. Somewhere in there you've assumed that the existence of sin is predicated on the universal application of sin. That's kind of like saying, we only taste salt because we have taste buds, but since not all people have taste buds salt does not exist.
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FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 02:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Adib Shaikh
Look around you man the world the universe.... everything..................... its enough to know god exist.
Sorry, not good enough. I think the world and the universe and everything is proof that there is either is no god or no benevolent god.
I can't post links, but search youtube for "stupid design" demonstrated by Neil DeGrasse Tyson.

There's also a great quote from the tv show House:

"Sister Mary Augustine: Why is it so difficult for you to believe in God?
Gregory House: What I have difficulty with is the whole concept of belief. Faith isn’t based on logic and experience.

Augustine: I experience God on a daily basis, and the miracle of life all around. The miracle of birth, the miracle of love. He is always with me.

House: Where is the miracle in delivering a crack-addicted baby? Hmmm? And watching her mother abandon her because she needs another score. The miracle of love. You’re twice as likely to be killed by the person you love than by a stranger."
Reply

Candle
06-11-2010, 02:14 AM
In my opinion, the fact that all cultures have had some sort of religion or mythology is proof that they're all wrong (they can't all be right, because they contradict each other.) To me the fact that humans have always had some sort of religion/mythology is proof that it is a part of human nature, nothing more.
Similarly, this is like saying that man's right to equal treatment does not exist because each culture goes about it differently. Communism, democracy and mixed market economies do not disprove the ideal; they are different ways of trying to attain the ideal.
Reply

جوري
06-11-2010, 02:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker

In my opinion, the fact that all cultures have had some sort of religion or mythology is proof that they're all wrong .
That is one of the most turgid propositions I have ever heard.. in fact, the conclusion here should be that the desire to find God is innate in human nature, that having a desire outside of that is to deny oneself the very nature of being human.
Be that as it may.. you are right, that it is hard to prove a negative, should be harder still to prove a double negative. You have neither given a scientific explanation that is data based evidence for the world and the universe you find yourself in, nor have you conceded to the obvious default response!

I hazard say you are too young and too influenced to be able to sort out through much of the crap and in definite need of what we call 'confirmation bias' I suspect for that reason alone you dropped the 'dawkin, 'dennett' bit.. they can reason through their own delusions, question is can you? it is easy to be a follower or a movement, but it isn't not easy to be a pioneer.. because it takes a bit more work than boring other forumers with the usual yawn inducing drivel..

all the best
Reply

جوري
06-11-2010, 02:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
I can't prove that god doesn't exist. Just like I can't prove that Santa Clause doesn't exist or that unicorns don't exist or that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, etc.
Again, it's impossible to disprove a negative.
Do you have any proof that Allah exists?
I'd love to live for the day when an atheist comes in here with something outside of these tired lines.
(see previous response) and let me know if you are having difficulty understanding the laws of logic, statistics (even though I have clearly delineated them) on a separate thread or just mere common sense eludes you?!
I don't know what created the universe and I never claimed to. However, I don't believe it was created by Allah, obviously.
Why not obviously? If we are talking about something as huge as the universe with all the little intricacies, billions of galaxies and complex biochemical and physiological reactions, then I expect something better than 'I never claimed' and 'obviously'
I don't like wasting my time kid, and I think you should have better things to do with it, if you can't make a solid argument for yourself, then don't make membership on forums asking members to defend their beliefs!
You are creating a red herring because you are trying to divert attention from the topic at hand.
Not at all, I am very much in keeping with the topic. You have to have a fair exchange, and so far you seem to run along the same ignorance and cowardice and tired liners of atheists before and surely those who will come after you!

My argument against Allah isn't drivel. This is a Muslim forum. Muslims believe that Allah gave man freewill and I gave an argument against it.
see previous reply!

all the best
Reply

FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 02:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Candle
Similarly, this is like saying that man's right to equal treatment does not exist because each culture goes about it differently. Communism, democracy and mixed market economies do not disprove the ideal; they are different ways of trying to attain the ideal.
The right to equal treatment and the existence of god is a false equivocation in my opinion. Because one is demonstrably true and the other is not.

And my point still stands. All religions are not compatible with each other.

Let's take Christianity and Islam as example.

Christians believe that Jesus died for the sins of humanity. They also believe that Jesus was god in human form (not just a human.) Christians do not regard Muhammad as a prophet.
Muslims do not believe Jesus died on the cross and they do not believe that he was a god, just a prophet of god. Muslims regard Muhammad as the final prophet.

Obviously, these two religions are not compatible. Either one is right or they're both wrong.

And that is just one example. What about all of the polytheistic religions? Are they compatible with your beliefs of strict monotheism? No.
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FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 02:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
in fact, the conclusion here should be that the desire to find God is innate in human
Which is why I stated in the same post: "the fact that humans have always had some sort of religion/mythology is proof that it is a part of human nature, nothing more."
But just because religion is a part of human nature does not mean god is real. That would be an appeal to belief.
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Candle
06-11-2010, 02:30 AM
The right to equal treatment and the existence of god is a false equivocation in my opinion. Because one is demonstrably true and the other is not.

And my point still stands. All religions are not compatible with each other.
False proposition. You are already assuming the conclusion of the argument to be one way in order to prove a premise which contributes to the conclusion. This is circular thinking.
The religions need not be compatible, only their source. Various incompatible objects spring from the same source, and they prove to indicate the existence of the source, not the contrary.
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Candle
06-11-2010, 02:35 AM
There is a little well kept secret amongst popstar atheists and their popular material, and that is that a surprising number of theists and monotheists habit the philosophy and meta-ethics faculties in all the great universities. This is where you're heading. Now where would you like to begin? Arguments based on intentionality? Collections and sets? Natural numbers? Counterfactuals or universal constants? The good old fashioned ontological argument? Induction? Putnamian? Morality and meaning?

I suspect that you are here to debate and not to find answers.
Reply

FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 02:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Why not obviously? If we are talking about something as huge as the universe with all the little intricacies, billions of galaxies and complex biochemical and physiological reactions, then I expect something better than 'I never claimed' and 'obviously'
Evolution explains the diversity of life. It also logically explains how life changes to better suit the environment. If there were an all-knowing being (Allah) why wouldn't he/she/it just create everything in a static state that was also perfectly made for the environment?

We live in a universe that is not fine-tuned for life. The Earth is the only known planet that is able to harbor life (not saying it is the only one, just the only one humans know of.) Put life anywhere else in the known universe and it will die instantly. This to me is a good argument AGAINST a benevolent god.
99% of all life that has ever existed is extinct. Why would an all-knowing being be so bad at creating life that his creations go extinct 99% of the time?

What about life on other planets? Intelligent life? If there is intelligent somewhere else in the universe (I believe there is) did Allah send prophets to them to? Or are humans the only creation he cares about? Also, if Allah did send prophets to intelligent life on other planets, did he send the same prophets? Muslims claim that Muhammad is the last and final messenger of god. Well, what if intelligent life formed AFTER Muhammad's lifetime? Can Allah not send them a prophet, because that would mean Muhammad would cease to be the final messenger. Are they just out of luck?

Also, there is a verse in the Qur'an that states that Allah scattered life THROUGH OUT the universe. To me, that is saying that Allah created life on other planets. I will look up the verse later.

Also, I will read your thread later. It is getting late and it is too long to read now.
Reply

جوري
06-11-2010, 02:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Which is why I stated in the same post: "the fact that humans have always had some sort of religion/mythology is proof that it is a part of human nature, nothing more."
But just because religion is a part of human nature does not mean god is real. That would be an appeal to belief.
Atheism is pretty much a belief system, you believe that God doesn't exist, you get organized, you make pamphlets of your doctrine and posters on buses




I hate to break it to you but another zealot extreme doesn't render null the others!

it is a question of logic which I suspect isn't your strong suit just given your very sophomoric arguments here..

all the best
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FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 02:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Candle
I suspect that you are here to debate and not to find answers.
You suspect wrong, but I suspect you don't have the answers.
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Candle
06-11-2010, 02:41 AM
Ew, we have those posters up on campus and I can't help but get a bad taste in my mouth whenever I see them.

You suspect wrong, but I suspect you don't have the answers.
Choose a subject and we can begin 101.
Reply

FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 02:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Candle
There is a little well kept secret amongst popstar atheists and their popular material, and that is that a surprising number of theists and monotheists habit the philosophy and meta-ethics faculties in all the great universities. This is where you're heading. Now where would you like to begin? Arguments based on intentionality? Collections and sets? Natural numbers? Counterfactuals or universal constants? The good old fashioned ontological argument? Induction? Putnamian? Morality and meaning?

I suspect that you are here to debate and not to find answers.
Your fancy shmancy degrees don't scare me.
Reply

FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 02:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Candle
Choose a subject and we can begin 101.
Why can't you just answer my question?
Reply

جوري
06-11-2010, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Evolution explains the diversity of life. It also logically explains how life changes to better suit the environment. If there were an all-knowing being (Allah) why wouldn't he/she/it just create everything in a static state that was also perfectly made for the environment?
'evolution' doesn't explain the origins of life, and I assure you if I got down to the nitty gritty here with you, you'd run home to your mama..
as for the latter part of that statement.. I have no idea what that means? care to elaborate?
We live in a universe that is not fine-tuned for life. The Earth is the only known planet that is able to harbor life (not saying it is the only one, just the only one humans know of.) Put life anywhere else in the known universe and it will die instantly. This to me is a good argument AGAINST a benevolent god.
99% of all life that has ever existed is extinct. Why would an all-knowing being be so bad at creating life that his creations go extinct 99% of the time?
If it isn't fine tuned for life, it is a wonder how you are sitting here living, breathing with billions of perfect biochemical reactions working for you through no volition of your own, which you'd rather render to 'evolution' and yet have no understanding or clear delineation of origin or function.

and again, I ask you to refrain of speaking on specifics when the very rudiments are elusive to you, furthermore, we have no idea what your 'baseline' for benevolence is to entertain this, even if I were to take the leap outside the pedantic confines you've created!
What about life on other planets? Intelligent life? If there is intelligent somewhere else in the universe (I believe there is) did Allah send prophets to them to? Or are humans the only creation he cares about? Also, if Allah did send prophets to intelligent life on other planets, did he send the same prophets? Muslims claim that Muhammad is the last and final messenger of god. Well, what if intelligent life formed AFTER Muhammad's lifetime? Can Allah not send them a prophet, because that would mean Muhammad would cease to be the final messenger. Are they just out of luck?
If you have specific questions about the religion of Islam, then I assure you there is an answer to all of them, but then that would violate your own abstract in your opening statement... for it seems you constantly breech your own restrictions but at the same time not interested in a reply for most assuredly the reply will come from scriptures!
double standards?

Also, there is a verse in the Qur'an that states that Allah scattered life THROUGH OUT the universe. To me, that is saying that Allah created life on other planets. I will look up the verse later.
OK

Also, I will read your thread later. It is getting late and it is too long to read now.
Just as well..

all the best
Reply

Candle
06-11-2010, 02:52 AM
Why can't you just answer my question?
Sorry, which question? Your imperative statement? Prove God exists! I'm not trying to intimidate you with knowledge. I am trying to show you that the amount of information there for the truly curious individual is MIND BOGGLING. Richard Dawkins hasn't published any formal academia for 6 years brother. His arguments may evoke an atheistic response in your average lay-reader, but you need to move beyond that if you intend to ask these large questions. Despite continuing formal training in philosophy, I spent 4 months last summer pouring over formal theistic arguments before I became firm in my belief in God.

It cannot be answered on a forum. However, if you're interested in material, I am glad to help. :)
Reply

FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
'evolution' doesn't explain the origins of life, and I assure you if I got down to the nitty gritty here with you, you'd run home to your mama..
as for the latter part of that statement.. I have no idea what that means? care to elaborate?
If it isn't fine tuned for life, it is a wonder how you are sitting here living, breathing with billions of perfect biochemical reactions working for you through no volition of your own, which you'd rather render to 'evolution' and yet have no understanding or clear delineation of origin or function.

and again, I ask you to refrain of speaking on specifics when the very rudiments are elusive to you, furthermore, we have no idea what your 'baseline' for benevolence is to entertain this, even if I were to take the leap outside the pedantic confines you've created!
If you have specific questions about the religion of Islam, then I assure you there is an answer to all of them, but then that would violate your own abstract in your opening statement... for it seems you constantly breech your own restrictions but at the same time not interested in a reply for most assuredly the reply will come from scriptures!
double standards?

OK

Just as well..

all the best
1. I never said evolution explained the origin of life.

2. What I meant was, why couldn't an all-knowing being create all life in a static (non-changing) state. Why did he create an imperfect universe where life has to constantly correct itself through natural mechanisms such as natural selection?

3. How can you say life IS fine-tuned? It's easy to think that life is fine-tuned when living in a modern society, but if we were living in an unindustrialized country or living 200 or more years ago, we would be struggling to stay alive. In some places, people are lucky just to live into adulthood. The fact is, if life were put anywhere else in the known universe it would die instantly! Even on Earth, most forms of life would die if they were taken out of their ecosystems. Humans would die if were tried to live in the ocean. Oceans make up most of the planet, around 70%. That means that only a tiny portion of this Earth is "fine-tuned" for our survival.

Also, you completely ignored me when I said that 99% of all organisms have gone extinct. That is a fact. How can you say that the creator is all-knowing if 99% of his creations have gone extinct? Unless you claim that he wanted them to go extinct.

4. You didn't even respond to my question about extraterrestrial life. Which I find to be a very interesting topic. If there is intelligent life else where in the universe, did your god send prophets to them?
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FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 03:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Candle
Despite continuing formal training in philosophy, I spent 4 months last summer pouring over formal theistic arguments before I became firm in my belief in God.
Well, I'm not some Dawkins worshiper just because I'm an atheist. I think Dawkins is a mundane version of what he once was. He was much more inspiring and influential in the 70s, I think.

Philosophy is all well and good, but since it is not testable, how can we be sure that any of it is true?
Reply

cat eyes
06-11-2010, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
1. It's impossible to prove a negative. Since you are making the claim (that god exists) the burden of proof is on you.
But I do have an argument, here it is:

God supposedly gave man free will.
People whom are mentally ill or mentally retarded have limited control over their actions or impulses.
A mentally ill person in a comatose state or just a normal person in a coma have no free will.
Being that not everybody has free will over the actions of their bodies or the thoughts in their heads not all people were given free will.
If all people do not have free will then god could have not given all people free will.
We only sin because we have free will but since all people do not have free will sin does not exist
is that all you could come up with? HAHA
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Evolution explains the diversity of life. It also logically explains how life changes to better suit the environment. If there were an all-knowing being (Allah) why wouldn't he/she/it just create everything in a static state that was also perfectly made for the environment?

We live in a universe that is not fine-tuned for life. The Earth is the only known planet that is able to harbor life (not saying it is the only one, just the only one humans know of.)
EXACTLY our little brains are limited... humans can only know so much but they can not claim to know everything. this is prove in itself that there is a more powerful being controlling everything so that we may ponder over everything. if we knew everything. it would ruin the test wouldn't it :)
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
I can't prove that god doesn't exist. Just like I can't prove that Santa Clause doesn't exist or that unicorns don't exist or that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, etc.
Again, it's impossible to disprove a negative.
Do you have any proof that Allah exists?

I don't know what created the universe and I never claimed to. However, I don't believe it was created by Allah, obviously.
You are creating a red herring because you are trying to divert attention from the topic at hand.

My argument against Allah isn't drivel. This is a Muslim forum. Muslims believe that Allah gave man freewill and I gave an argument against it.
What argument is that? i can't see any strong argument you gave against it lol
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FreeThinker
06-11-2010, 03:18 AM
OFFLINE

I will be back on tomorrow.
Reply

جوري
06-11-2010, 03:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
1. I never said evolution explained the origin of life.
what was your purpose of injecting evolution in a thread about God's existence or non-existence?
2. What I meant was, why couldn't an all-knowing being create all life in a static (non-changing) state. Why did he create an imperfect universe where life has to constantly correct itself through natural mechanisms such as natural selection?
How is this an imperfection? as the environment changes we are given the abilities to adapt to it or die, to die is the human condition and it seems purposeful. if life were simply about existence then we'd have been better off as un-evolved cockroaches. what is the point of higher reticular function, and aesthetics, if it were merely about survival?

3. How can you say life IS fine-tuned? It's easy to think that life is fine-tuned when living in a modern society, but if we were living in an unindustrialized country or living 200 or more years ago, we would be struggling to stay alive. In some places, people are lucky just to live into adulthood. The fact is, if life were put anywhere else in the known universe it would die instantly! Even on Earth, most forms of life would die if they were taken out of their ecosystems. Humans would die if were tried to live in the ocean. Oceans make up most of the planet, around 70%. That means that only a tiny portion of this Earth is "fine-tuned" for our survival.
Again, I fail to see your point? what does life expectancy have to do with existence or non existence of God? Death was decreed upon us and from a theological perspective we are immortal beings, whose existence isn't bound by a number of years no matter how long or short in this life!
Also, you completely ignored me when I said that 99% of all organisms have gone extinct. That is a fact. How can you say that the creator is all-knowing if 99% of his creations have gone extinct? Unless you claim that he wanted them to go extinct.
Again, what is your point? what does all knowing have to do with what lives and what dies?
if you constantly beg to have a theological explanation then don't set your scene excluding God and scriptures..

what you consider being remiss is in fact one of God's signs

Allah (swt) continues to direct changes that we perceive as natural processes and the atheistic evolutionist interprets as naturalistic evolution. Surah 29:19-20 Do they not see how Allah originates creation then repeats its process? Surely it is easy for Allah. Say to them: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah originates the creation, then creates the later creation.”

Surat Al Ana’am, verse #59 Says “and He Has the keys of the unseen, none knows it but He, and He Knows what on the land and in the sea, not a leaf falls but He Knows about it, and not a grain in the darkness (depth) of the earth nor any thing wet or dry but in a very comprehensive book (record)”.

so I have no reason to believe that just simply because something is extinct, that God neglected it, or didn't know about it. You need to re-visit that and elucidate your meaning.. We are not immortal as far as earthly life is concerned!

Everything fulfills its very specific purpose and expires.




4. You didn't even respond to my question about extraterrestrial life. Which I find to be a very interesting topic. If there is intelligent life else where in the universe, did your god send prophets to them?
If God created other creatures then we have no reason to assume that he didn't send them their own messengers-- I wonder why you keep asking theologically specific questions when you have stated that you have no desire for that from the get go?

here is the Islamic stance:
It is part of the justice of Allaah that He does not punish any people until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].
In his tafseer (commentary) on this aayah, Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “These words, ‘…And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)’ tell us of the justice of Allaah, may He be exalted, and that He does not punish anyone until after He has established evidence against him by sending a Messenger to him. This is like the aayat (interpretation of the meaning): ‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’ [al-Mulk 67:8] and: ‘And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups, till, when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened (suddenly like a prison at the arrival of its prisoners). And its keepers will say, “Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves, - reciting to you the Verses of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?” They will say: “Yes, but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!”’ [al-Zumar 39:71]…”
A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree’, who reported that the Prophet of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”
According to another report, he said: “Whoever enters it, it will be cool and safe for him, and whoever does not enter it will be dragged to it.” (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan, and deemed saheeh by al-Albaani, Saheeh al-Jaami’, 881).
Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him. Whoever dies without having heard the message, or having heard it in a distorted form, then his case is in the hands of Allaah. Allaah knows best about His creation, and He will never treat anyone unfairly. And Allaah is All-Seer of His slaves.



so to answer your question and a point you'd previously raised.. all religions in fact have a bit of truth to them.. just like when you show up to a test and alot of the answers are possibly correct, it is a matter of which is most correct, rather than a mere opposition of one another.. the universal code and basic tenets don't change.. the question is how to cut through all the extraneous crap to get to pure unadulterated monotheism!

all the best
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-11-2010, 04:07 AM
LOL. Kid I feel pity for you. You're just 19 and are hormonally charged. You have much to discover and experience in life.

I will only respond to your intelligent life and Prophet Muhammad pbuh argument. I've already raised that point on these forums here on my discussions with Islamirama. So its not your novel idea but I guess you never claimed it to be. This is my position after taking sophomore and junior astronomy courses and reading most recent literature and writing a 20 page essay on "how can life be detected on exoplanets (extra solar planets)." Since you atheists guys look for "credibility," I did that at one of the "harvards" of Canada and not at some "University of Creationism" as some of you like to say when trying to discredit others.

There is NO observable, testable and unbiased evidence that intelligent life exists elsewhere. No Earth-like exoplanet has been found. We have found many stars which have planets orbiting them but most of these planets are way way heavier and are called Hot Jupiters. The smallest exoplanet found has the mass of 5 Earths.

I dont believe intelligent life exists elsewhere till I find the evidence and I believe we will never find the evidence. Hence I believe Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the last messenger in this universe. I have that faith. You have your faith that intelligent life exists elsewhere. But your position is a weak one compared to mine as you are taking a positive position with no concrete evidence.
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Lynx
06-11-2010, 04:15 AM
First, asking for just empirical evidence limits the types of answers you are going to get. Is there any particular reason you don't want an a priori argument for God's existence? Many of the most creative and thought provoking arguments come from strictly theoretical arguments.

Anyway,

1. God supposedly gave man free will.
2.People whom are mentally ill or mentally retarded have limited control over their actions or impulses.
3.A mentally ill person in a comatose state or just a normal person in a coma have no free will.
4.Being that not everybody has free will over the actions of their bodies or the thoughts in their heads not all people were given free will.
5.If all people do not have free will then god could have not given all people free will.
6.We only sin because we have free will but since all people do not have free will sin does not exist

I think your wording of the last line (that I have numbered 6) has confused you. It should read 'if one person does not have free will then sin does not exist' and then your argument can run deductively. Only problem is that the counter premise is easily 'only people with Free will sin' and that ruins your entire argument. I can't see how your argument could be repaired and I am forced to say it has failed.
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tango92
06-11-2010, 04:29 AM
i always thought the essense of the problem came down to, what started everything when clearly the universe couldnt start itself? the answer is "something". now you can start reasoning as to what qualities this "something" at square one has.

If god had no purpose for his creation then humans would not be able to freely think thats why religion is a necessity. (and btw the quran is a miracle, thats why its from Allah)
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Ramadhan
06-11-2010, 07:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
God supposedly gave man free will.
People whom are mentally ill or mentally retarded have limited control over their actions or impulses.
A mentally ill person in a comatose state or just a normal person in a coma have no free will.
Being that not everybody has free will over the actions of their bodies or the thoughts in their heads not all people were given free will.
If all people do not have free will then god could have not given all people free will.
We only sin because we have free will but since all people do not have free will sin does not exist
I'm sure even your fellow atheists are embarrassed with this extremely erroneous logic, if you even call that logic.
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Trumble
06-11-2010, 08:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Simple question (or is it?)
Prove Allah exists.
No scripture, no theoretical nor pragmatic arguments. Show me some EMPIRICAL evidence!
A meaningless request as, if God did exist, he could be be responsible for any possible directly observable phenomena. Everything can be explained by the God hypothesis, which is one reason many people find it so attractive, and it is of course impossible to disprove a thesis that, by definition, explains everything there is.

Of course, most things can be explained by alternatives to God, in many cases rather more convincingly IMHO, and there is good reason to suspect that many of those that currently can't will eventually follow the pattern of history and fall into place. 'Everything', though? I very much doubt it.. and in that space religion will always exist, theistic or otherwise. Hence attempting to prove or disprove the existence of God is a totally futile pursuit except as an exercise in argumentation, as surely has been proved by the total failure of far greater minds than ours to do so over the course of the last two millennia or so.

Put another way, this sort of argument between theists and atheists is ultimately futile as while, if being intellectually honest, they might have to accept each other's arguments, that is pretty much irrelevant as they can never accept each others starting assumptions.
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Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-11-2010, 08:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
1. It's impossible to prove a negative. Since you are making the claim (that god exists) the burden of proof is on you.
But I do have an argument, here it is:

God supposedly gave man free will.
People whom are mentally ill or mentally retarded have limited control over their actions or impulses.
A mentally ill person in a comatose state or just a normal person in a coma have no free will.
Being that not everybody has free will over the actions of their bodies or the thoughts in their heads not all people were given free will.
If all people do not have free will then god could have not given all people free will.
We only sin because we have free will but since all people do not have free will sin does not exist
Your argument has many holes.

First of all - you have to understand what free will is. According to religion Allah gave you free will - However,
your actions are still governed by Allah - that is, from the point of view of how much freedom to act spontaneously
- you are not very different than a person in a comma - at least not from a religious point of view.

In fact, contrary to the unhealthy secular viewpoint, we view people in a coma or with different mental states as
equal to anybody else and view them just as humans like you and me - no difference.

The question of sin and what is sining is a very complicated one from a theological point of view. However, it seems
to me that you want to jump to the very complicated questions about religion and do not have yet a solid understanding of the basics (like the importance of giving, the contribution of a healthy religious community to the
overall health of society, prayer and Zakat..). Before you understand these things you would simply get confused over the other issues.

You see, Religion is a very complicated thing, much more than any science you can find - as it attempts to deal with
the overall human experience and the nature of our existence. It is good that you are asking question and I am sure
that if you would ask these questions with the will to find the answers you will also find them.
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Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-11-2010, 09:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
What I meant was, why couldn't an all-knowing being create all life in a static (non-changing) state. Why did he create an imperfect universe where life has to constantly correct itself through natural mechanisms
Ahhm. Finally some interesting questions in the Forum :)

Well, this is a very good question. A very good one.

The answer is that the world, in a sense, "already existed" in the state that you mentioned. However, this
existence is not really an existence. It is even more counterintuitive than that - the truth is that the world
does exist now in this "static state" - you simply do not know that.

You see - our state of existence is only one out of many possible one - However, to some extent one should
refer to our state as especially unique.

Now you might ask why is it like that?

You see, our existence is very fragile, there is a limit for how much we can take. This is why we have to go
through life step by step. Sometimes life could be very hard or very joyful and you cannot handle it all at
once - therefore you have to mature. Now - try and imagine what if life would crash on you all at one second -
that want be very nice would it? So we need to take it easy and go through things step by step.

Let me give you an example and this is the best example that I know.

Lets assume you have a book on a table. You haven't read it - does the story exist for you?

Well - you can say that the "static letters" exist - but you still have no idea what's in there.

Then you have to read the book - read it word by word - this would take you time - like two
weeks. But after you finish reading the book - it is there - and it is part of your experience - and
you do not need to read it again in order to recollect what has happened there. So in that sense
it went into a different state for you.

But what would happen, if like a computer, you would plug the book to your mind like a usb disc - your mind simply won't be able to take it - it would be a overload.

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
How can you say life IS fine-tuned? It's easy to think that life is fine-tuned when living in a modern society, but if we were living in an unindustrialized country or living 200 or more years ago, we would be struggling to stay alive. In some places, people are lucky just to live into adulthood. The fact is, if life were put anywhere else in the known universe it would die instantly! Even on Earth, most forms of life would die if they were taken out of their ecosystems. Humans would die if were tried to live in the ocean. Oceans make up most of the planet, around 70%. That means that only a tiny portion of this Earth is "fine-tuned" for our survival.
1. Life in modern world is very very untuned.

2. I would think that what you say should qualify as a miracle - won't it? If indeed we cannot live in 99% but yet still we are here - this is quite remarkable - isn't it?

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
, you completely ignored me when I said that 99% of all organisms have gone extinct. That is a fact. How can you say that the creator is all-knowing if 99% of his creations have gone extinct? Unless you claim that he wanted them to go extinct.
You are to stuck on the physical aspects of existence. The Physical world disintegrates and regenerates - this is
the nature of the physical world. In particular it contains death and decay - that's the way it is and that is the
way the world has been created.

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
You didn't even respond to my question about extraterrestrial life. Which I find to be a very interesting topic. If there is intelligent life else where in the universe, did your god send prophets to them?
Well, the answer is no as we are unique with respect to our role in creation.
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Trumble
06-11-2010, 09:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Ibn Yus
In fact, contrary to the unhealthy secular viewpoint, we view people in a coma or with different mental states as
equal to anybody else and view them just as humans like you and me - no difference.
What 'secular viewpoint'? The issue is an important general ethical one, with significant differences opinion between atheists/secularists/humanists. Theists don't have a monopoly on morality, much as some might like to kid themselves that they do.
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Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-11-2010, 09:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
What 'secular viewpoint'? The issue is an important general ethical one, with significant differences opinion between atheists/humanists as with as with theists.
Well - as far as I view it - secular people, aside from being hypocrite, cannot view people in a coma or with
different mental or physical states as on the same level of them. Even if they say so and morally debate about it for as long as possible.

This is for the simple reason that if you see life as a purely physical thing and do not acknowledge the fact that
you have a soul you would see these people as less fortunate than you and hence not equal. That is the simple
truth of it.
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Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-11-2010, 09:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Of course, most things can be explained by alternatives to God, in many cases rather more convincingly [/I].
Funny. I do not think I follow. I have two magnets on my table and when I get them closer they get attracted
to each other - could you please explain me why it happens? I have not seen an answer yet...in spite of the
glorious pattern of evolution of "the supreme human knowledge of physics"...

Funny...people think they know everything but when you really ask for answers
(after you exhaust the popular science slogans) you always get the "I am not an expert in this field" answer..."I am more into multidimensional quantum chromatic string wave theory kinda reasearch - magnets is not my thing".

Or maybe why magnets get pulled together is not important or interesting enough - but yet again if this is the place where you can "squeeze in" questions - I would say that you have a rather wide space going on there.
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Trumble
06-11-2010, 10:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Ibn Yus
Well - as far as I view it - secular people, aside from being hypocrite, cannot view people in a coma or with
different mental or physical states as on the same level of them. Even if they say so and morally debate about it for as long as possible.

This is for the simple reason that if you see life as a purely physical thing and do not acknowledge the fact that
you have a soul you would see these people as less fortunate than you and hence not equal. That is the simple
truth of it.
Secular simply means 'apart from religion', or words to that effect. It has no commitment regarding acceptance of ontologies that exclude any sort of spiritual dimension, such as a 'soul'. It is quite possible to be 'secular' in regard to a great many moral decisions even if you are religious, in that you do not believe religious views should (necessarily) determine the results of any deliberations. Often, as religious views differ markedly, a 'secular' approach is the only way to settle a dispute between religious people.

Alas, I am no physicist either and you will need to seek your explanation of electromagnetism elsewhere. I was not aware, however, that the teaching of this phenomenon at schools and universities around the world usually invoked God to explain it?
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Mohamed_Sadiq
06-11-2010, 10:30 AM
Just get a translated Holy Quran in English and analyse it with these scientific believes you believe in and you will understand more clearly hopefully. Also think to yourself what is this life and where does you soul go to when you die does it just vanish in thin air? What gave a human body a life a soul?

But please don't ask this question for a different purpose to start a controversial debate that can affect people. If you are genuine and honest and really want to ask this question you wouldn't had come here for an answer but somewhere else outside of the internet. So if you have dodgy intention for asking this question then you have problems.

Anyways all the best.

P.E.A.CE
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Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-11-2010, 10:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Secular simply means 'apart from religion', or words to that effect. It has no commitment regarding acceptance of ontologies that exclude any sort of spiritual dimension, such as a 'soul'. It is quite possible to be 'secular' in regard to a great many moral decisions even if you are religious, in that you do not believe religious views should (necessarily) determine the results of any deliberations. Often, as religious views differ markedly, a 'secular' approach is the only way to settle a dispute between religious people.

Alas, I am no physicist either and you will need to seek your explanation of electromagnetism elsewhere. I was not aware, however, that the teaching of this phenomenon at schools and universities around the world usually invoked God to explain it?

1. For me secular means a person who does not believe in religion. My understanding in politics is very limited
and I simply do not understand it. I just said that non-religious people cannot treat people in a comma or in different
physical\mental states than them as equal - even if they really want to believe they do.

2. So, to the best of my understanding you are also not a theologist but you seem to have no problem to talk about that. Anyway - you have just proved my point and gave me the "I am not an expert answer" you would be surprised
to know that I have not yet found an "expert" maybe it means that they do not exist. I should open a post "prove that an expert in physics exists" - that would be fun :) and also much more straightforward....

3. I do not know what teaching you refer to in universities and schools because as far as I know all they teach
there is a few mathematical formulas which explain how magnets get attracted to each other - i.e a model of
the movement that they will make when one puts them close together (which I can see well enough with my eyes)
- However, you would be surprised to know that humanity, at least not in the circles of western academic science, has no explanation or a shade of a clue as to why two magnets attract each other.

In my eyes it is a very fundamental phenomena...do you not think?

4. But - there is a simple answer to why it is like that - something many people fail to notice. Science is absolutely not interested to give you answers for anything. Indeed physics is not here to explain anything and
that is what people do not understand. People naturally want to know the answers to "why" questions (like
why am I here, why does this make me sad, why does this makes me happy - this kind of stuff) - science
cannot care less about this - science is just about how how how. How does this work, how does your brain
work, how will you react if I pinch you, how will a stone fall from this and this height....in my eyes this is very
boring - because if a how question never in the end leads to an answer to a why question - then who needs it?

5. The problem is that we are brainwashed by all sort of "popular science shows and media" to think that science
can give us answers to why questions and in fact make it into our new godling - but actually science is just one big
waste of time. Personally, if I am not engaged in answering why questions and helping my fellow friends to have
a happy life - I would have preferred to die at the age of thirty or before that and not extend my life until I'm a thousand years old - simply because then life would have been a total waste of time.

6. However, do not get me wrong I absolutely do not think that anybody is "hiding" from us the answers to the "why" questions - far from it - everything is in plain sight. I think that the main reason is that people simply do not want to know and feel uncomfortable with these kind of things as answering a "why" question involves with being honest and this would require people to go through things they simply do not want to deal with. So they prefer to play all important and uninvolved with being "scientists" and waste their time and ours with analyzing how this and this would happen.
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Supreme
06-11-2010, 10:58 AM
Proof of Allah/God/Jesus/Buddha/insert diety here? Hmmm, well, I've always been interested in the First Casue argument as put forward by St Thomas Aquinas- everything in the Universe had a cause- even the Universe has a cause- so it would be rational to attribute such a cause to said deity. Does God have a cause? Of course not- He does not conform to the logic He created for the natural Universe to follow, and therefore, it can be said God has no cause.
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Asiyah3
06-11-2010, 11:16 AM
Peace,
Pray sincerely to Allah to guide you to the straight path.
Reply

tango92
06-11-2010, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
A meaningless request as, if God did exist, he could be be responsible for any possible directly observable phenomena. Everything can be explained by the God hypothesis, which is one reason many people find it so attractive, and it is of course impossible to disprove a thesis that, by definition, explains everything there is.

Of course, most things can be explained by alternatives to God, in many cases rather more convincingly IMHO, and there is good reason to suspect that many of those that currently can't will eventually follow the pattern of history and fall into place. 'Everything', though? I very much doubt it.. and in that space religion will always exist, theistic or otherwise. Hence attempting to prove or disprove the existence of God is a totally futile pursuit except as an exercise in argumentation, as surely has been proved by the total failure of far greater minds than ours to do so over the course of the last two millennia or so.

Put another way, this sort of argument between theists and atheists is ultimately futile as while, if being intellectually honest, they might have to accept each other's arguments, that is pretty much irrelevant as they can never accept each others starting assumptions.
true, although sometimes one has to look beyond a merely academic viewpoint and ponder the truth of a matter from ones personal way of thinking and own nature.

and although humans have explained many, if not most observable phenomenon, it does not in anyway provide an "alternate hypothesis". both explanations co exist without contradiction. At least in Islam anyway.
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Ummu Sufyaan
06-11-2010, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Simple question (or is it?)
Prove Allah exists.
No scripture, no theoretical nor pragmatic arguments. Show me some EMPIRICAL evidence!
how can one possibly prove that god exists whilst being regardless of any method that God Himself has described/informed us about Himself.
in other words, there is no possible way to prove that god exists except via the means in which he Has given us (eg holy scriptures, etc), wherein which He informed us of Himself.

an open heart and mind and a willingness to at least try to understand concepts of belief is a necessary component in believing in the existence of god. without it, any attempt of trying to understand will be rendered useless.

it is also necessary to accept and understand that the only proof to matters of the unseen/things that cant be proven scientifically (though science may at times conform to certain beliefs), is through the acceptance of the heart. that is all that is required to accept Belief, hence the term 'Faith.'
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espada
06-11-2010, 11:52 PM
Let me get this straight ... you've come on a random message board, and asked a bunch of random Muslims to prove to you, some random person, that Allah exists?

I'd think that if anyone on here could do that, they would already be the most sought after man or woman in the world. Or they'd be in seclusion by the powers that would like to suppress said knowledge.

Take a look at the post i've quoted, by the mother of Sufyaan.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
how can one possibly prove that god exists whilst being regardless of any method that God Himself has described/informed us about Himself.
in other words, there is no possible way to prove that god exists except via the means in which he Has given us (eg holy scriptures, etc), wherein which He informed us of Himself.

an open heart and mind and a willingness to at least try to understand concepts of belief is a necessary component in believing in the existence of god. without it, any attempt of trying to understand will be rendered useless.

it is also necessary to accept and understand that the only proof to matters of the unseen/things that cant be proven scientifically (though science may at times conform to certain beliefs), is through the acceptance of the heart. that is all that is required to accept Belief, hence the term 'Faith.'
This pretty much sums it up. I really think you fail in understanding the whole issue of faith and belief. And i don't really feel like explaining it to you.

Let's look at it this way. What happens if you are right? Well the muslims wasted their lives praying, fasting, reading an amazing book and living by a code of conduct that says to treat parents well, feed the poor, fight oppression, protect yourself from sexual misconduct and live simply. Oh well, most i'd say would be pretty content to say they hadn't wasted their lives. Maybe they missed out on some clubbing and pork (or whatever). Fine you win.

But what happens if we are right? You are playing with fire ...

Either way, whether you intended to or not with this thread, you just prove Islam even more. With this debate/thread you increased the belief of the believers even though you may detest that.

Mission accomplished?!?! George Bush would be proud?!?!

Oh and in regards to the mentally ill and their sins? Islam has you covered:

Hadrat Ali ibn Abi Talib (r.a.) reported that the Prophet (saws) said: "The pen is raised for three groups [of people]—(that is, they will not be responsible for their actions): the insane until they become sane, those who are sleeping until they awaken, and the young until they reach the age of puberty."

Related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and at-Tirmidhi.

Paz, amigo.
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FreeThinker
06-12-2010, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
I dont believe intelligent life exists elsewhere till I find the evidence and I believe we will never find the evidence. Hence I believe Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the last messenger in this universe. I have that faith. You have your faith that intelligent life exists elsewhere. But your position is a weak one compared to mine as you are taking a positive position with no concrete evidence.
I never said there was intelligent life on other planets. I just said I BELIEVE there are. I never said I KNOW there are.

I have 3 reasons to believe there is intelligent life on other planets:

1. The size of the universe. There are 100 thousand million stars in our galaxy alone. Beyond our galaxy there are many many many more.
The hubble deep field image was a tiny portion of the sky, yet the tiny image it took had over 10,000 galaxies in it.

If Allah created the entire universe, all the planets, stars, and other celestial objects in it and only put life on this one planet ... then I think Allah is not the most intelligent creator.
What a waste of space. Believing that the universe was created for us is a very self-centered belief. Humans have always been anthropocentric creatures!

Watch this video. It was made by a Muslim.
Type the following into google and hit "I'm feeling lucky":
watch?v=LeBuXnCe2Mg

2. There is a theory that life came from Mars.

www . newscientist . com/article/mg19325885.200
If it were true (which it very well may be) then it would mean that there are planets other than Earth that are capable of harboring life.

3. Hominids. The hominids were sentient beings, but they weren't human. That proves that intelligent and sentient life has existed besides humans. The Neanderthals for example, they had art, music, buried their dead, etc. They did a lot of things that humans do. But they weren't human. The Neanderthal genome was recently mapped and it proved that there were not humans. That is 100% proof that humans are not the only intelligent/sentient life that has existed or exists in this universe.
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FreeThinker
06-12-2010, 06:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by espada
Let's look at it this way. What happens if you are right? Well the muslims wasted their lives praying, fasting, reading an amazing book and living by a code of conduct that says to treat parents well, feed the poor, fight oppression, protect yourself from sexual misconduct and live simply. Oh well, most i'd say would be pretty content to say they hadn't wasted their lives. Maybe they missed out on some clubbing and pork (or whatever). Fine you win.

But what happens if we are right? You are playing with fire ...

Either way, whether you intended to or not with this thread, you just prove Islam even more. With this debate/thread you increased the belief of the believers even though you may detest that.
lol

Pascal's wager is such a fail.
Just because you believe in god, does not mean you believe in the right god (or gods.)
How many religions, gods, and goddesses have the human species invented in the thousands of years of our existence? An innumerable amount.
They can't all be right, can they? Many of them certainly contradict each other.

So, statistically, what are the chances that you are following the right religion? The right sect of a religion?

"treat parents well, feed the poor, fight oppression, protect yourself from sexual misconduct and live simply"

If you think only Muslims do that, than you are completely deluded.
If you NEED Islam to do those things, then I REALLY feel bad for you.
If you are only doing those things to fulfill your faith in hopes of getting into heaven, then you are a very sanctimonious and insidious person.
Reply

M.I.A.
06-12-2010, 06:15 PM
well if you want evidence just look at those that use this world as proof,

physics
math
chemistry
biology
phylosophy

for every theory proved there is understanding of universal laws that govern the entire universe, except for the things which cant be explained or the theories with holes in them. i guess gods a better mathamatician, chemist, biologist, physicist and phylosopher than anyone thats existed.... or been created whatever.
Reply

FreeThinker
06-12-2010, 06:18 PM
USA is playing England in 30 minutes.

Soccer (Football) is more important than religion.

BBL
Reply

Supreme
06-12-2010, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
USA is playing England in 30 minutes.

Soccer (Football) is more important than religion.

BBL
You see, this is why no one takes you seriously.
Reply

Masuma
06-12-2010, 09:35 PM
@ Free thinking:
First of all as pointed out, you are here just for an argument, (and please don’t try to say no as everyone can easily see it here.) If you really wanted guidance or help, then you would have been trying more to understand people’s points!

You want us to make a “disbeliever” BELIEVE in the existence of God??? That doesn’t even make sense! No matter how many arguments we give you, you’ll still stuck to your point as some people’s hearts are sealed and they would never receive guidance. But still I pray to Allah to guide you to truth!

Now you say that God doesn’t exist, then how do you explain the existence of this universe and everything in between? Who then created all of this? You are not a child and so must have at least some of your theories explaining the origin of the universe and all of us, right? Or did you remain so ignorant and never even bothered as to how everything came into existence?

I think you must have at least some of your beliefs explaining these big questions. So would you mind them sharing?



May Allah give you guidance!
Reply

Masuma
06-12-2010, 09:42 PM
@ Free thinking:

May be this might not work as you seem less keen to UNDERSTAND things but still lets give it a try.

PROVING THE EXISTENCE OF ALLAH (SWT) TO AN ATHEIST

by Dr. Zakir Naik


CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’.

So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.
LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD

My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details)


QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE

The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?


THEORY OF PROBABILITY


In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.


CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE

Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.


SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

Now this time try to UNDERSTAND if you are really here for it! :hmm:
Reply

Masuma
06-12-2010, 09:51 PM
ooopsi one more thing! You mentioned in the OP that you don't want proofs from religious books etc. So that means you want us to prove God's existence to you by your CRITERION to judge things! If your criterion to judge things is science, then okay we'll inshAllah prove God's existence to you through it.
So what is your criterion to judge things with? Science?

You should understand that different people have different ways of arriving at truth. Some would accept historical records to be sufficient evidence for God's existence, some would go for science etc. Every person has his/her own criterion to judge about things. So what is your through which we can prove God's existence to you?

Let us all save our precious time here because we might be giving you proofs of science etc and you would simply say at end that my criterion was history or some other thing! So tell us what do you take as the ultimate authority, proving you the veracity of things?

And atheists are the most unjust because the beloved Allah out of His loving mercy still take care of them and they totally deny His existence!:cry: Oh Allah! We celebrate your praise and we would even die for You! :cry:
Reply

FreeThinker
06-12-2010, 10:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
Now you say that God doesn’t exist, then how do you explain the existence of this universe and everything in between? Who then created all of this? You are not a child and so must have at least some of your theories explaining the origin of the universe and all of us, right? Or did you remain so ignorant and never even bothered as to how everything came into existence?
Why do you assume it's a "who" ??

I think saying "We don't know how the universe was created / what created it, therefore, GOD DID IT!" is sheer intellectual laziness.
Reply

marwen
06-12-2010, 10:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Simple question (or is it?)
Prove Allah exists.
No scripture, no theoretical nor pragmatic arguments. Show me some EMPIRICAL evidence!
Well I can't give you an answer to this simple question. So you win ! hahaha.

But why all of you atheists are thinking this way : you need concrete, logical, empirical, scientific evidence to admit something exists. This won't work with every thing.
Now let's forget Allah's existence. Can I ask you one more simple question :
Can you give me a clear proof (logical, or empirical) that you really exist ? well I see these posts that probably you wrote, so probably you exist, but I'm really confused and I don't "believe" you really exist. So can you give me a clear evidence that you exist ?

May be you'll die before answering this question. Or may be you'll change your way of proving the existence of things :-\
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Danah
06-12-2010, 11:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Simple question (or is it?)
Prove Allah exists.
No scripture, no theoretical nor pragmatic arguments. Show me some EMPIRICAL evidence!
Very Easy...."No scripture, no theoretical nor pragmatic arguments"

Its YOU who is reading this post right now!
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espada
06-13-2010, 12:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
lol

Pascal's wager is such a fail.
Ok ... but i doubt you'd know that until you are dead.

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
"treat parents well, feed the poor, fight oppression, protect yourself from sexual misconduct and live simply"

If you think only Muslims do that, than you are completely deluded.
If you NEED Islam to do those things, then I REALLY feel bad for you.
If you are only doing those things to fulfill your faith in hopes of getting into heaven, then you are a very sanctimonious and insidious person.
i'm not anyone's judge. What you asked is to prove to you, random internet person that God exists.

That is not possible. But i still believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is called faith.

Belief in the unseen.

You seem to be judging my intentions. And you've a made bunch of assumptions about me and my thinking.

But still friend, and i doubt it is your intention, you are only increasing my faith in Allah.

And i'm sorry if that detests you.
Reply

FreeThinker
06-13-2010, 12:27 AM
1. I am using the Muslim definition of god ie an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, conscious being.
2. The analogy he uses fails because he is assuming there has to be a creator, there doesn't. Objects and machines have creators, but those things are unnatural (they don't occur in nature, people have to make them.) The universe is natural. We can see natural things grow and there is no intelligence behind it. It is just a natural phenomenon. The universe is natural as well, so why assume there was a conscious being behind its creation?
3. The scientific "miracles" in the Qur'an can be explained logically. There was an exmuslim on youtube who made a good video on the subject. His user name is "discussislam" but he took all his videos down.
4. Read the book "God is not great" by Hitchens. Chapter 9 is titled "The Koran is borrowed from both Jewish and Christian myths" You can probably find it online for free, if you have the desire to.
5. Francis Bacon lived in the 1500s before we knew about DNA, evolution, radio activity, and a billion other things. I don't think his quote stands the test of time.
Reply

FreeThinker
06-13-2010, 12:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
1. I am using the Muslim definition of god ie an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, conscious being.
2. The analogy he uses fails because he is assuming there has to be a creator, there doesn't. Objects and machines have creators, but those things are unnatural (they don't occur in nature, people have to make them.) The universe is natural. We can see natural things grow and there is no intelligence behind it. It is just a natural phenomenon. The universe is natural as well, so why assume there was a conscious being behind its creation?
3. The scientific "miracles" in the Qur'an can be explained logically. There was an exmuslim on youtube who made a good video on the subject. His user name is "discussislam" but he took all his videos down.
4. Read the book "God is not great" by Hitchens. Chapter 9 is titled "The Koran is borrowed from both Jewish and Christian myths" You can probably find it online for free, if you have the desire to.
5. Francis Bacon lived in the 1500s before we knew about DNA, evolution, radio activity, and a billion other things. I don't think his quote stands the test of time.
This is a rebuttal to the lecture by Zakir Naik that An33za posted.
Reply

Zafran
06-13-2010, 12:44 AM
I'll start from 2
2 - your assuming that there is no creator - your opnion on natural things not being created is also an assumption. You also make the assumption that there is no intelligence behind natural things.
3 - Some of the verses of the Quran can be explained by science.
4 - poor argument - very old that has had many refutations from muslims - You need to look at the other side as well.
5 - those things are not known but they are the best guess work we have at this moment in time.

Prove empirically that your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandma actually existed and we'll talk about God.
Reply

espada
06-13-2010, 12:47 AM
If you don't mind could you tell us a little about your upbringing?

Were you raised in any particular religious faith, are your parents religious?

When did you start to form you opinions?

Everyone has a right to their thoughts through their life experiences.

i'd like to know yours outside of books you may have read.
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FreeThinker
06-13-2010, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by espada
If you don't mind could you tell us a little about your upbringing?

Were you raised in any particular religious faith, are your parents religious?

When did you start to form you opinions?

Everyone has a right to their thoughts through their life experiences.

i'd like to know yours outside of books you may have read.
I was not raised in a particular religion. My families religious background is Christian (various sects.) My dad was raised as a Roman Catholic, but he is not religious. My mom was raised as a protestant, she is not religious either, however, my mom is not an atheist though, she is a Deist.

I first started describing myself as an atheist in the 7th grade. I was introduced to the "four horsemen of atheism" in high school. I guess that's when I started being open about it.
Reply

espada
06-13-2010, 02:23 AM
Well, i actually think i may know who may be able to help you.

But i don't think you are going to particularly like the answer.

So before i tell you, let me ask you this:

Do you really want to know if Allah (God) exists? Or are you just trying to prove that we can't prove it to you?
Reply

FreeThinker
06-13-2010, 04:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
I'll start from 2
2 - your assuming that there is no creator - your opnion on natural things not being created is also an assumption. You also make the assumption that there is no intelligence behind natural things.
What makes you think there is intelligence behind natural things? Besides the fact that your religion tells you there is.
Reply

Lynx
06-13-2010, 06:22 AM
freethinker,

Don't you think it makes more sense to look up the literature written by people who actually discuss these things for a living instead of asking on a random forum? I promise there's no shortage of stuff written on this topic. I mean you might as well have gone into a crowd of Muslims at the Mosque and ask them to prove God exists. Your discussion is futile here and this topic has been discussed and argued about thousands of times since ancient philosophers. Nothing new is going to pop up here and I can't even imagine what fun there is in picking an argument over something that's been argued literally ad nauseum.
Reply

Supreme
06-13-2010, 01:11 PM
5. Francis Bacon lived in the 1500s before we knew about DNA, evolution, radio activity, and a billion other things. I don't think his quote stands the test of time.
If anything, my study of science (and chemistry in particular) has brought me closer to God. It's simply irrational to believe the Periodic Table and the elements and their reactions and their ions etc just came into being as if by magic. There has to have been a Creator is always my first thought when diving into chemistry.
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Masuma
06-13-2010, 02:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Why do you assume it's a "who" ??

I think saying "We don't know how the universe was created / what created it, therefore, GOD DID IT!" is sheer intellectual laziness.
Did I say that "we don't know how the universe was created/ what creted it, therefore, GOD DID IT!"? Would you mind pointing out please? Where did I say it? ;D

Now the problem with you is that you are assuming everything up before they come to pass. Why can't you answer a simple question? What theories, no matter how ridiculous,(and believe me, I won't mind) you have, explaining you the origin of the universe? And just to make it easy for you, do you support Darwin's theory, theory of evolution etc?

Please this time, don't start to assume my replies! You'll know them when I post them here. :)

And when do you get online? I was thinking of a quick question-answer session! What do you say? :hmm:
Reply

Masuma
06-13-2010, 02:37 PM
@ Freethinker:

Please try to answer the questions instead of treacherously avoiding them! K? You have asked us many questions here, and we've given you replies, but why can't now YOU answer my simple question?

Now again, for your comfort, they are here:

Q1: You don't believe God exists and its totally okay! So do you have any of your theories, which YOU believe to be explaining the origin of the universe? Do you believe big bang to explain the "universe creation" rightly?

Q2: Do you agree with Darwin's theory and the theory of evolution?

Q3: Do you have any OTHER theories which YOU believe to be true?

Now this time, the post is short and the questions are simple. And if you won't answer them, then of course I would have to admit that you are treacherously avoiding them; you don't want any discussion etc etc!

So please!

Peace!
Reply

Zafran
06-13-2010, 03:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
What makes you think there is intelligence behind natural things? Besides the fact that your religion tells you there is.
where did I say there was intelligence behind natural things?? Theres another assumption that you make.
Reply

Masuma
06-13-2010, 03:45 PM
In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful!


Sorry, I didn’t know that this post was also addressed to me. It was so way up there and invisible among others but still…



Come on freethinker, don't you think I would know you've something called internet through which you can find almost zillions of rebuttals, some even by illiterate people, and then would try to make your point here? That's so sad then! :(

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
1. I am using the Muslim definition of god ie an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, conscious being.

Yeah that is now better! :) See, in this way if you'll reply to my questions, we would inshAllah (if God wills) have no problem!

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
2. The analogy he uses fails because he is assuming there has to be a creator, there doesn't. Objects and machines have creators, but those things are unnatural (they don't occur in nature, people have to make them.) The universe is natural. We can see natural things grow and there is no intelligence behind it. It is just a natural phenomenon. The universe is natural as well, so why assume there was a conscious being behind its creation?
And what is the definition of “natural”? Perhaps “something which is not created”? Is that what you mean? Is “universe” natural? But I read that it was created in a big bang?! What do you say about this?
Every living creature was “formed” from the primary raw materials present like carbon, hydrogen etc. (As you know carbohydrates consists of carbon and hydrogen; proteins have carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxy etc!)
So that means none of us are natural??? I’m not natural? :(

You said:
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
they don't occur in nature,
So universe doesn’t occur in nature because it WAS created??? Ouchi! My head hurts by taking in such an ill-logical point!

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
The analogy he uses fails because he is assuming there has to be a creator, there doesn't.
So there is no point of discussion here and the whole purpose of discussion fails because “you are PRESUMING that there is no Creator?” You see, YOU ASSUME TOO, many, many things! Like you’ve assumed that there is no Creator! So we Muslims are not the only one here “assuming: things. :)

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
3. The scientific "miracles" in the Qur'an can be explained logically. There was an exmuslim on youtube who made a good video on the subject. His user name is "discussislam" but he took all his videos down.
Sad! :( But don’t worry; I can give you the links of 5 or 6 anti-Islamic forums and sites where many ex-muslims and Atheists have tried to rebuttal this lecture or tried to “explain” the scientific miracles of Quran.


format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
4. Read the book "God is not great" by Hitchens. Chapter 9 is titled "The Koran is borrowed from both Jewish and Christian myths" You can probably find it online for free, if you have the desire to.
Thanks for increasing my list of anti-Islamic books. I’ll include this book too. So what were you saying…? Yeah! “So do YOU believe that Koran is borrowed from both Jewish and Christian myths”? Hmmm?


format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
5. Francis Bacon lived in the 1500s before we knew about DNA, evolution, radio activity, and a billion other things. I don't think his quote stands the test of time.
You are not making any sense here! Why a “quote” would needs to pass the test of time? Why are you trying to change the words? It is the “religions” and “concepts” which should pass the test of time.
Now about Francis Bacon, do you know he was a scientist also? And BECAUSE of his experience in science, he said that
“Little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God.”
If a person has knowledge about some subject, then I think it allows him to pass statements regarding it. Right?
Don’t you realize that believers have covered or traveled one more level than the non-believers? Because every believer was once a non-believer till Allah gave him/her guidance.
But still, if you don’t agree with Francis Bacon’s quote because “he lived in 1500s before we knew about DNA, evolution, radio activity, and a billion other things” then okay. I live in your century and now we have discovered many, many things, and now I say that
“Little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God”, so you agree? Just kidding! :D (of course my quotes hold no importance)
And now, seriously, if you don’t agree with Francis Bacon’s quote then simply ignore it.
Reply

FreeThinker
06-13-2010, 05:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
where did I say there was intelligence behind natural things?? Theres another assumption that you make.
You said: "your assuming that there is no creator - your opnion on natural things not being created is also an assumption. You also make the assumption that there is no intelligence behind natural things"

If there is no creator behind natural things, than we can presume there is no creator behind the universe, because it too is natural.
Reply

FreeThinker
06-13-2010, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful!


Sorry, I didn’t know that this post was also addressed to me. It was so way up there and invisible among others but still…
My definition of natural: Something occurring spontaneously in nature, something was not created by a sentient being.
The big bang was also natural, so no, the universe being created by the big bang does not contradict my definition.
Living creatures are formed by different elements, those elements are naturally occurring, that doesn't contradict my definition of natural either.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, to put it bluntly. All you need is a little skepticism and to do a little research and you will see that they have non-divine explanations.
How do you explain the incorrect science in the Qur'an? Such as semen being created between the backbone and ribs? (Semen is created in the testes, below the ribs.)

It's not anti-islamic book, it's an anti-religion book. It takes on all religions. I think you should read it, despite the fact that you think it's anti-islamic.

My point about Francis Bacon's quote is that in the 1500's there was A LOT that we didn't know. Which to most people could only be explained by god. Take someone like Francis Bacon and put him the modern world and educate him on all we know now, and there's no guarantee that he would still be a theist. That's my point.
Reply

Mohamed_Sadiq
06-13-2010, 06:01 PM
Freethinker, go outside the internet for answers if u genuinly want to know about allah and islam.
Reply

Masuma
06-13-2010, 06:55 PM
So should I assume then that you are treacherously avoiding answering my questions?

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
My definition of natural: Something occurring spontaneously in nature, something was not created by a sentient being.
The big bang was also natural, so no, the universe being created by the big bang does not contradict my definition.
Do you know, this time it was I who presumed your answer and unbelievably you've said the same thing which I presumed. :D
Now, if you say that some spontaneous or random reaction initiated the creation of universe then that is okay but the universe ITSELF was not present. That is, that the raw materials were present by which the creation was created but the CREATION itself was not present at all at that time. Now lets go further back in history. How did the very, very primary raw materials came into existence?

And if the creation is just so spontaneous, that is that if we simply popped up from these raw materials, then why has this process halted? Why don't we see more people simply popping up from the raw materials now? Hmmm?

Do you have any idea of how much precision and accuracy it takes to make just one simple protein molecule? Just ONE molecule??? Even if one, yeah just one, amino acid is wrongly coded in a DNA molecule, the person would be abnormal. He might suffer from various diseases.

Now do you want me to be so lazy and ill-logical as to believe that such precision, such accuracy can be achieved by a SPONTANEOUS process?

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Living creatures are formed by different elements, those elements are naturally occurring, that doesn't contradict my definition of natural either.
How did the "elements" came into existence? And please don't try to say that "they just did!" because this would be ridiculous.

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, to put it bluntly. All you need is a little skepticism and to do a little research and you will see that they have non-divine explanations.
So where is your proof? Produce your proof if you are truthful! Prove me that Quran is of non-divine origin! One thing, free thinker, you think that you'll keep avoiding answering questions and that would lead you to truth? You are totally mistaken. You've asked us all here to prove to YOU that Allah exists because we, believers make this statement. But now this time, it is YOU who has passed an unauthentic statement and so now the whole burden falls on you. PROVE ME THAT QURAN IS FROM A NON-DIVINE SOURCE?

And if you have no proof of it, then should it have been better that to remain silent on the matter? Now you have laid an allegation and so YOU prove it!

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
My point about Francis Bacon's quote is that in the 1500's there was A LOT that we didn't know. Which to most people could only be explained by god. Take someone like Francis Bacon and put him the modern world and educate him on all we know now, and there's no guarantee that he would still be a theist. That's my point.
That's YOUR point and your point, like mine, doesn't hold any importance! Btw, don't you ever see any scientific documentaries etc? Because then you would have realized that there is still a hell lot to discover and understand. The more discoveries we make, the more new queries rise. The more knowledge we gain, the less and little we feel it to be!

Now my point is that if Francis Bacon would have lived in this century, it would have made him a total, pure, true Muslim. He would have now for sure realized that such mysterious and ever expanding universe can only be created by God!

Now if you don't mind, then try to answer my question. Do you believe that Quran was copied or taken from Jewish and Christian myths?

And your very clever actually because you've been very treacherously avoiding my question! So answer it now, if you are truthful! And if you don't have any proof, then from next time onwards, it would be more suitable for you to not dare pass unauthentic statements. :)

Peace
Reply

FreeThinker
06-13-2010, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
Do you believe that Quran was copied or taken from Jewish and Christian myths?


Peace
Yes.
And the very same Christian and Jewish myths that the Qur'an copied from are themselves copies of the pagan myths that predated Christianity and Judaism.

And much of the science in the Qur'an was plagiarized from ancient Greek texts. The Qur'an even copied the science that the Greeks got wrong, such as the semen thing I pointed out, which you so conveniently ignored.

PS. Can you answer this for me: Who wrote the Qur'an ?
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sim10
06-13-2010, 09:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
So should I assume then that you are treacherously avoiding answering my questions?
Obviously he's avoiding answering peoples questions, many people on this topic gave some really good points, particularly τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ..I believe he got stumped there. He's just choosing to "answer" certain things anyone that baffles or makes valid points against him, he seems to ignore.
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Zafran
06-13-2010, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
You said: "your assuming that there is no creator - your opnion on natural things not being created is also an assumption. You also make the assumption that there is no intelligence behind natural things"

If there is no creator behind natural things, than we can presume there is no creator behind the universe, because it too is natural.

You see know your making assumptions - and not sticking with your principles that you laid out before - this is what you siad before

2. The analogy he uses fails because he is assuming there has to be a creator, there doesn't. Objects and machines have creators, but those things are unnatural (they don't occur in nature, people have to make them.) The universe is natural. We can see natural things grow and there is no intelligence behind it. It is just a natural phenomenon. The universe is natural as well, so why assume there was a conscious being behind its creation?
so its wrong for someone to assume that there is a creator or that the natural world is created - but its fine for you to assume that there is no creator and that the natural world is not a creation??? whats with the doubles standards?
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-14-2010, 11:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
My definition of natural: Something occurring spontaneously in nature, something was not created by a sentient being.
The big bang was also natural, so no, the universe being created by the big bang does not contradict my definition.
Living creatures are formed by different elements, those elements are naturally occurring, that doesn't contradict my definition of natural either.
Yes it does. According to your definition you are un-natural as you were "created" by your mother and your father - as there is no law of science which said that they must create you - there for according to your definition you are
un-natural.

I find it funny that you seem to love so much a way of thinking which views your own existence as un-natural. By the
way - this type of thinking leads us to associating the prefix "un" to things instead of using the word itself - as to make us believe that there is no word for the opposite thing. Let me give you an example...

What is the opposite of "rational" ...According to you it is "irrational" but no ...according to me it is "intuitive"

What is the opposite of "natural"....According to you it is "un-natuaral" but no...according to me it is "miraculous"

You see - this makes me stronger than you because I have a bigger vocabulary than you - and thus more flexibility and more strength of mind - which you deprive of yourself.

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, to put it bluntly. All you need is a little skepticism and to do a little research and you will see that they have non-divine explanations.
How do you explain the incorrect science in the Qur'an? Such as semen being created between the backbone and ribs? (Semen is created in the testes, below the ribs.)

It's not anti-islamic book, it's an anti-religion book. It takes on all religions. I think you should read it, despite the fact that you think it's anti-islamic.

My point about Francis Bacon's quote is that in the 1500's there was A LOT that we didn't know. Which to most people could only be explained by god. Take someone like Francis Bacon and put him the modern world and educate him on all we know now, and there's no guarantee that he would still be a theist. That's my point.
Ahhm. This is so funny...amusing :) People are so amusing sometimes...

let me show you something...this book that you are so proud of...it was written in English
right? This means that it consists of the letters, the alphabet...

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

How beautiful...now, may I ask you a question...who gave us this alphabet?...I find it
very interesting...did you develop it? Did it come to us naturally? Did the knowledgeable
psedou-scientist that you mentioned invent them in his fancy laboratory?

No. None of us did - it just is. Perfect language which can express every idea you want
wether it be these sentences or any of the "scientific achievements" you are so proud of.

In fact, it won't be hard to say that language is a greater thing than any human achievement I know of as we can express with it anything we can possibly go through...

Yet...I do not know anybody who has any idea from where do the languages come from?....Good question no? And a very mysterious
one indeed because to the best of my knowledge - you have not needed to invent a word in
your life - they were all here one you came - and neither do we...think about it next time
that you say something - because your own words are not yours.
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-14-2010, 11:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Yes.
And the very same Christian and Jewish myths that the Qur'an copied from are themselves copies of the pagan myths that predated Christianity and Judaism.

And much of the science in the Qur'an was plagiarized from ancient Greek texts. The Qur'an even copied the science that the Greeks got wrong, such as the semen thing I pointed out, which you so conveniently ignored.
Ahhm...you know what I think. I would think like that.

If there is "hidden knowledge" in these books. I would actually think that it won't be upfront and would be hidden as some people are very disrespectful and vain and do things out of egoistic drives. However, religion is all about modesty. So I would
believe that if such things exist...they would be very hidden for people who are modest and take their time to
deal with things out of appreciation...while for those who would not it would seem reasonable to me to believe
that there would be "sucker points" to hang out all sorts of reasons to put their simple minded ideas on...

but yet....it seems quite reasonable...
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Pygoscelis
06-14-2010, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Atheism is pretty much a belief system, you believe that God doesn't exist, you get organized, you make pamphlets of your doctrine and posters on buses




I hate to break it to you but another zealot extreme doesn't render null the others!

it is a question of logic which I suspect isn't your strong suit just given your very sophomoric arguments here..

all the best
Atheism is as much a belief system as bald is a hair colour. A lot of people on here seem to think that Atheism is a system of beleifs. It isn't. It is at most one belief (depending on which definition of atheism you are using - the other definition says its a lack of one belief). Dawkins & Company are more a political movement, a backlash to religion, than a religion itself. It excludes the vast majority of atheists (as Dawkins himself will readily admit), and discourages faith.

I think people want to see atheism as a religion so they have something to attack. But unfortunately for them, unlike in religions there is no code or dogma to atheism, no set of beliefs all atheists are to share and adhere to. Addressing one atheist's views doesn't address another atheists views.

That's why (despite what this poster seems to want us to think) atheists don't have a unified agenda and don't have a big group and rallies and meetings. They only unite in backlash to when religion goes too far, and beyond that they fragment instantly - because there is nothing else to unite them. They will differ widely on every other point (including how to deal with theists - here is a very big debate right now amongst various atheists as to if Dawkins/Hitchens' approach does more harm than good)
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Pygoscelis
06-14-2010, 03:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
So where is your proof? Produce your proof if you are truthful! Prove me that Quran is of non-divine origin!
This is really no different than "prove god doesn't exist", which of course can't be done. Even if I could identify who wrote the Quran and when and where he got his ideas from etc, you'd always be able to say that Allah meant that to be the way it happened and ultimately it is from divine source. So at the end of the day, the claim is pointless. The "prove me wrong" thing doesn't work here, not when your hypothesis is non-falsifiable.

I have not joined this thread until now (which I presume to be its final pages) because this kind of thread is usually pointless. You either believe in God or you don't. If you do, you believe on faith, you start with the "God exists" assumption. You don't work to God existing through reason and argument, you use reason and argument to justify your assumption that God exists. And since we come to the table with opposite assumptions, this kind of thread never gets anywhere.
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Masuma
06-14-2010, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Yes.
And the very same Christian and Jewish myths that the Qur'an copied from are themselves copies of the pagan myths that predated Christianity and Judaism.

And much of the science in the Qur'an was plagiarized from ancient Greek texts.
Now prove it! I challenge you! :) Produce your proof if you are truthful!
And I'll try to refute all this falsehood. Okay?

And if it is proven to you that Quran is not copied but has only one Divine Source i.e. ALLAH, then will you believe?

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
The Qur'an even copied the science that the Greeks got wrong, such as the semen thing I pointed out, which you so conveniently ignored.
The truth is I didn't! ;D I was just waiting for the moment when you'll say that Quran has been copied and blah blah and then will explain to you about this. Now you prove how the Quran has been copied and I'll prove to you inshAllah INSHALLAH that it has not been. So deal? :D

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
PS. Can you answer this for me: Who wrote the Qur'an ?
Sure sure, that is all what I'm going to do from now onwards but on one condition; you meet the challenge I put forward!
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-14-2010, 03:15 PM
Here is a question for you to ponder: Why would an all powerful God communicate his word through writing, which had to be replicated and interpreted and carried to new lands? Why not just place in the minds of us all at creation whatever it is he wants us to know? If you accept the premise that he exists and that the holy book is his word, then that he did the former instead of the latter either seems to indicate he didn't intend to be well understood by all (or even heard by all), and intended the resulting tension between the various religions and sects. An all powerful God certainly could have avoided all the religious conflict we have in this world (and could have prevented atheism too), simply by making us know his word. So why didn't he? Why do we have to read some book and listen to some preacher?
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Masuma
06-14-2010, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This is really no different than "prove god doesn't exist", which of course can't be done. Even if I could identify who wrote the Quran and when and where he got his ideas from etc, you'd always be able to say that Allah meant that to be the way it happened and ultimately it is from divine source. So at the end of the day, the claim is pointless. The "prove me wrong" thing doesn't work here, not when your hypothesis is non-falsifiable.

I have not joined this thread until now (which I presume to be its final pages) because this kind of thread is usually pointless. You either believe in God or you don't. If you do, you believe on faith, you start with the "God exists" assumption. You don't work to God existing through reason and argument, you use reason and argument to justify your assumption that God exists. And since we come to the table with opposite assumptions, this kind of thread never gets anywhere.
Believe me pygoscelis, I don't mind if the thread is closed down because to tell you the truth, it's really time consuming and some people here are just for an argument and not for UNDERSTANDING, so that does make the point of discussion useless. But I'm just trying my luck here. If I can become a source for someone's help then it would be my pleasure! :statisfie

Now as far as the allegation is concerned which Freethinker laid against Quran, so now the burden is upon him to prove his point to be right.
And if your so concerned about it, why don't you help your lil brother out. I won't mind! :)
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Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-14-2010, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
this kind of thread is usually pointless. You either believe in God or you don't. If you do, you believe on faith, you start with the "God exists" assumption. You don't work to God existing through reason and argument, you use reason and argument to justify your assumption that God exists.
Ahhm...this is simply not true. Just a silly lie those who do not want to see humanity becoming
universally religious - a lie which very efficiently convinces the foolish...

Proving is the most foolish and empty verb ever invented. Human beings cannot prove anything.
The only thing we can do is having experience - frankly, those who are stuck on "proving" things
are the ones with the least experience possible because they just sit in their offices and never
learn anything substantial about life.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
since we come to the table with opposite assumptions, this kind of thread never gets anywhere.
This is again not true. People do change their minds assuming they are interested in the TRUTH which is very simple to explain and is what people should be interested in. If one is interested in throwing out "opinions" than that is futile and leads to nothing.

However - most people are simply not interested in the truth as they are AFRAID of it ... On the one hand I understand them on the other hand the price we pay for this foolishness is unbearable (take into account the wars, misery and pollution which are overall un-required...)
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Pygoscelis
06-14-2010, 03:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
Now as far as the allegation is concerned which Freethinker laid against Quran, so now the burden is upon him to prove his point to be right.
I have not been following the thread page by page but if the allegation is that the Quran is not the word of God, or that God doesn't exist, as I just stated, that can't be proved. You can't falsify an unfalsifiable claim (that the quran is the word of Allah) or that Allah exists. That doesn't do anything at all to prove he does exist or that it is though. This point is why things like the "Flying spaghetti monster" were created (as an analogy - you can't prove the FSM doesn't exist either - doesn't give you any reason to accept it does).
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Pygoscelis
06-14-2010, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Ibn Yus
This is again not true. People do change their minds assuming they are interested in the TRUTH which is very simple to explain and is what people should be interested in. If one is interested in throwing out "opinions" than that is futile and leads to nothing.
I recommend the research of Bob Altmeyer and Bruce Hunsberger. They did a lot of scientific study on the question of how people are converted from one religion to another (or to religion in general). It isn't because they methodically and logically look through the "evidence". It is because of social pressures, emotional needs, major life events, promises of reward and threats of punishment (heaven and hell are only one example), etc.
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Masuma
06-14-2010, 03:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I have not been following the thread page by page but if the allegation is that the Quran is not the word of God, or that God doesn't exist, as I just stated, that can't be proved. You can't falsify an unfalsifiable claim (that the quran is the word of Allah) or that Allah exists. That doesn't do anything at all to prove he does exist or that it is though.
Now it is you who is presuming that it is an "unfalsifiable claim"! ;D See, I told you people that Atheist assume many, many things too!

Quran is "not the word of God" is an allegation! And it can be proved right or wrong. Now of course pygoscelis, I understand that YOU don't know how to prove your point here! So if you don't know about something, why to then speak about it? I am just challenging you two to prove to me that Quran is "not the word of God" but of course if you don't know, you can obviously chicken out!
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Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-14-2010, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Here is a question for you to ponder: Why would an all powerful God communicate his word through writing, which had to be replicated and interpreted and carried to new lands? Why not just place in the minds of us all at creation whatever it is he wants us to know? If you accept the premise that he exists and that the holy book is his word, then that he did the former instead of the latter either seems to indicate he didn't intend to be well understood by all (or even heard by all), and intended the resulting tension between the various religions and sects. An all powerful God certainly could have avoided all the religious conflict we have in this world (and could have prevented atheism too), simply by making us know his word. So why didn't he? Why do we have to read some book and listen to some preacher?
Ahh. Now you are improving :) Good questions...

This is a very good question indeed...

you see...Allah is all powerful...However, you as a part of Allah's world are not...
If Allah would just "place in your mind what he wants you to do", like you said, your
mind would explode like a water melon...

However, Allah, in his mercy, first of all - wanted us to exist, second of all, and this
is the remarkable thing, guided (and guides throgh the world of the Prophet SAW)
us so that we can evolve and gradually learn "what it is he wants from us", in your
words, if you want...

Now, if you think about it, a book is actually quite a unique thing. In fact, one might think
that it is perfect for this purpose. You see, for a person from the outside, a book is just
a book. You have to read it in order to have some understanding of what is inside it. However,
the level of the understanding depends on the level of the reader. Therefore, a simple person
would find simple things while other people would find different things...all according to the level
of what the reader could take...

Also, and this is maybe the most relevant answer - it is a lesson in modesty which is one of the most important attributes for one to have.
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-14-2010, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I recommend the research of Bob Altmeyer and Bruce Hunsberger. They did a lot of scientific study on the question of how people are converted from one religion to another (or to religion in general). It isn't because they methodically and logically look through the "evidence". It is because of social pressures, emotional needs, major life events, promises of reward and threats of punishment (heaven and hell are only one example), etc.
Why would I be interested in something like that?
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Pygoscelis
06-14-2010, 03:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
Now it is you who is presuming that it is an "unfalsifiable claim"! ;D See, I told you people that Atheist assume many, many things too!!
How could it be falsified? Is there really anything that could be discovered or anything that could be said that could disprove the existence of God or that a holy book is not that God's inspired word? I very much doubt it. Every time something new comes up that conflicts with a religion it just moves the goal posts. So if you actually for the first time in religious history have something in mind that would disprove your God entirely, I'd love to hear it. If not, it is unfalsifiable and pointless.
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Pygoscelis
06-14-2010, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Ibn Yus
.
If Allah would just "place in your mind what he wants you to do", like you said, your
mind would explode like a water melon...
So why don't the prophets' heads explode like watermelons? And why doesn't your head explode like a watermelon while reading the Quran? Or does that not give you his complete word?

And if he is our maker, why would he design our heads to be unable to contain his word without exploding, unless he slowly brought us to it? Why does the gradual application of it not also make our heads explode?

Does this slow gradual coming to his word refer to peoples or individuals? Does a child have to be careful how fast he seeks to learn God's word? Will his head explode like a watermelon if he tries to learn to fast?

Why did God write just "one true word" instead of giving the same tome to everybody on earth? These holy books have to be carried from land to land and from people to people. Could he not foresee that others would develop their own (presumably false) "one true word" and that tension and war would result?

Could he not have come up with something less prone to error and misinterpretation?

Can his perfect word even be expressed in written language? Language has its limitations. Does reducing God's word to human language not harm it?

Now, if you think about it, a book is actually quite a unique thing. In fact, one might think
that it is perfect for this purpose.
I would argue it is a terrible thing for this purpose. It is a means of communication that humans may be restricted to. But certainly an all powerful God could do better.

You have to read it in order to have some understanding of what is inside it. However,
the level of the understanding depends on the level of the reader. Therefore, a simple person
would find simple things while other people would find different things...all according to the level
of what the reader could take...
So God intends only the most literate to truly understand his word? He wants everybody else to have only an idea of it? That is a new idea I think.

Also, and this is maybe the most relevant answer - it is a lesson in modesty which is one of the most important attributes for one to have.
Modesty? Or misunderstanding and error and resulting tension? Why would getting the word planted in your head make you less modest?

Did god intend all this confusion and tension and wars between religions? Did God intend the witch trials, the inquisition, 9/11, honor killings, suicide bombers, slaughter of infidels, etc? Wasn't that all a misreading of his word? Or a lack of having his word? Couldn't he have prevented it all with better communication?

hrm maybe I should have made this a topic of a separate thread. But this one looks like its dead as to its original topic.
Reply

Masuma
06-14-2010, 04:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
How could it be falsified? Is there really anything that could be discovered or anything that could be said that could disprove the existence of God or that a holy book is not that God's inspired word? I very much doubt it. Every time something new comes up that conflicts with a religion it just moves the goal posts. So if you actually for the first time in religious history have something in mind that would disprove your God entirely, I'd love to hear it. If not, it is unfalsifiable and pointless.
Seriously Pygoscelis, your making me laugh! Look how innocently your asking ME to help you prove that Quran is not the word of God! :) I'm not falling for that trap, if that is one. :D

And this further proves that you really don't have any means to prove your point to be true. So your busted and why don't you now rest a little bit or go to some other thread with your ill-logicality?!

Simple as it is, if I say that Bible is not the word of God, then I'll have to prove that HOW it is not the word of God, which I'll some day inshAllah do if I live that long.

Same is the case with Freethinker. He said that Quran is not the word of God, so I;ve challenged him to prove it to me that HOW it is not the word of God!

So please, I'm sort of tired talking to you and now will have to simply ignore you. So please don't mind! :)
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-14-2010, 04:15 PM
I said from the outset that I can't prove the Quran isn't the world of God to the satisfaction of a Muslim. Nor can you prove the bible is not the inspired word of God to the satisfaction of a Christian. Oh I'm sure you can imagine yourself doing it, but if you try, even if you come up with something you think is rock solid, they will just move the goalposts . You will do the same re the Quran. That you can't show how your claim could be falsified shows it to be an unfalsifiable claim. If I say "The world is flat" or "The sun goes around the earth", those are falsifiable claims. People can look into it and prove me wrong (and they have). When I say "The Flying Sphaghetti Monster inspired Dr. Seuss", they can't disprove that, it is not falsifiable and it is therefore a matter of faith (and argument is pointless).
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-14-2010, 04:22 PM
I like these questions!!! Finally some fun in this forum! :)

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
So why don't the prophets' heads explode like watermelons? And why doesn't your head explode like a watermelon while reading the Quran? Or does that not give you his complete word?

And if he is our maker, why would he design our heads to be unable to contain his word without exploding, unless he slowly brought us to it? Why does the gradual application of it not also make our heads explode?
There are many different questions here. I will try to answer

1. The prophets are unique individuals. Also, for the prophets it included intense physical and mental stress which is unimaginable.

2. Regarding to why my head does not explode. Well, first of all you seem to not have read my answer. This does not happen because what I take from a book is only what I can handle. Let me give you an example. It is like a king opening to you the doors to his treasury and telling you that you can take what ever you can carry. One person would be able to take only little and some would be able to take much. But nobody would be able to take even a small portion of the treasury itself as it is infinite.

3. Well, Allah did not design your head like that because if it would it would violate your existence. You are a human. If he would design you like that you would not be human but rather closer to an angel. Angels exist and can take more than you can take. However, humans are not angels and angels are not humans and each has his place, importance and role in existence.

4. Anyway. Before you are worthy to deserve everything why don't you show that you at least want "a little"? What have you done to justify that you deserve this benefit? Do you think that you deserve free gifts?

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Does a child have to be careful how fast he seeks to learn God's word? Will his head explode like a watermelon if he tries to learn to fast?
See (2).

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
did God write just "one true word" instead of giving the same tome to everybody on earth? These holy books have to be carried from land to land and from people to people.
I am not sure that I understand what you mean. Did you have to carry anything on your back? I think that you personally are free to go and buy what ever book you want in the bookstore.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Could he not have come up with something less prone to error and misinterpretation?
I do not know what you mean. Error and misinterpretations is not the same thing. What is a misinterpretation anyway? You are free to read a book in what ever way you want - and what ever interpretation you would make out of it would be what you will get from the book at the end of the day...As for errors. I find it really hard to understand how and why you speak of errors if you do not know what is a correct thing. Without having a notion of what an error might how can you even ask about errors so to me it sounds as if you are shooting in the dark.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
his perfect word even be expressed in written language? Language has its limitations. Does reducing God's word to human language not harm it?
Language has no limitation and I am not familiar with the concept of "human" language. Humans use language however I do not see anything in it which makes it human. Language has no limitations as far as I understand.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
So God intends only the most literate to truly understand his word? He wants everybody else to have only an idea of it? That is a new idea I think.
No. It is not for me to say what Allah intends. However, as far as I understand human responsibility it is the
responsibility of those who understand to explain to those who do not yet understand as to make sure that
everybody benefits.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Did god intend all this confusion and tension and wars between religions?
Who am I to know. But yet - it does depend on us you know. If people would have been more mature I do not think that it would have been needed.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Did God intend the witch trials, the inquisition, 9/11, honor killings, suicide bombers, slaughter of infidels, etc?
See the answer above. I mean, look at today. One does not need to be prophet to see that in the near future (and also now) things like this might happen. But - what are you or anybody else doing to prevent that today? Not much. People can't just wayne on why this and this happened while not doing much to prevent the atrocities of their own generations...

Anyway, these question about events in which many people have died are not so interesting to me because people love to talk about it and be all excited about it but when I look around me I do not see people caring for their own lives so much...so why fake it?
Reply

piXie
06-14-2010, 04:35 PM
Brother Gabriel, I am sure you have the best of intentions and may Allaah have mercy upon you, but let us save our energies and valuable time for people who are sincere.
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-14-2010, 04:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piXie
Brother Gabriel, I am sure you have the best of intentions and may Allaah have mercy upon you, but let us save our energies and valuable time for people who are sincere.
Yeah. Probably right...
Reply

FreeThinker
06-15-2010, 12:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Ibn Yus
Yes it does. According to your definition you are un-natural as you were "created" by your mother and your father - as there is no law of science which said that they must create you - there for according to your definition you are
un-natural.
Sexual reproduction is a natural process. It exists in nature. It was not created by humans. It is natural.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Ibn Yus
let me show you something...this book that you are so proud of...it was written in English
right? This means that it consists of the letters, the alphabet...

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

How beautiful...now, may I ask you a question...who gave us this alphabet?...I find it
very interesting...did you develop it? Did it come to us naturally? Did the knowledgeable
psedou-scientist that you mentioned invent them in his fancy laboratory?

No. None of us did - it just is. Perfect language which can express every idea you want
wether it be these sentences or any of the "scientific achievements" you are so proud of.

In fact, it won't be hard to say that language is a greater thing than any human achievement I know of as we can express with it anything we can possibly go through...

Yet...I do not know anybody who has any idea from where do the languages come from?....Good question no? And a very mysterious
one indeed because to the best of my knowledge - you have not needed to invent a word in
your life - they were all here one you came - and neither do we...think about it next time
that you say something - because your own words are not yours.
The Latin alphabet evolved from the Greek alphabet.
You called Hitchens a pseudo-scientists, which means you know nothing about him or his work as he never claimed to be a scientist. He's a journalist.

Umm, I know a lot of people who know where languages came from. A brief study of the parts of the brain associated with speech and speech recognition may provide some insight. Many animals have "languages" or the ability to communicate. Birds have very complex ways of communicating. And chimpanzees are able to learn sign language.
I don't see what your point is.
Reply

Ramadhan
06-15-2010, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I have not been following the thread page by page but if the allegation is that the Quran is not the word of God, or that God doesn't exist, as I just stated, that can't be proved. You can't falsify an unfalsifiable claim (that the quran is the word of Allah) or that Allah exists. That doesn't do anything at all to prove he does exist or that it is though. This point is why things like the "Flying spaghetti monster" were created (as an analogy - you can't prove the FSM doesn't exist either - doesn't give you any reason to accept it does).
We cannot directly prove that Allah SWT exists, we prove by the claims made by Allah SWT himself.

What does flying spaghetti monster claim to be/do?
Reply

Vito
06-15-2010, 03:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Simple question (or is it?)
Prove Allah exists.
No scripture, no theoretical nor pragmatic arguments. Show me some EMPIRICAL evidence!
Just commit suicide and find out for yourself

:threadclo
Reply

Woodrow
06-15-2010, 03:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Simple question (or is it?)
Prove Allah exists.
No scripture, no theoretical nor pragmatic arguments. Show me some EMPIRICAL evidence!
Why.


I do not believe you exist. Show me some empirical evidence to prove to me I am not having Tactile, Audio, visual hallucinations and you are no more than a product of my deranged mind.
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-15-2010, 09:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Sexual reproduction is a natural process. It exists in nature. It was not created by humans. It is natural.
I agree. However according to your previous definition of natural sex was excluded from the definition.

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
The Latin alphabet evolved from the Greek alphabet.
What do you mean evolved? I do not see any evolution ...You seem to not understand the point.
An evolution is a slow process. Do you have any notebooks or any sort of history in which you
can see on a period of years how greek "morphed" into latin?

Think about it. In order for greek to one day turn into latin is the equivalent of all the people in
America today turning one day into Japanese...you see, this argument does not hold water.
Humans use language however they did not form it and that is the end of the story. You can
say that you do not feel comfortable with that and want to hide it with all sorts of fairy tales
but this is simply the way it is.

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
called Hitchens a pseudo-scientists, which means you know nothing about him or his work as he never claimed to be a scientist.
First of all, I have a very firm grasp of science and I now what science is well enough to no what it is not. Secondly, so why is he making scientific claims? I do not understand it. Who put him to be the voice of science and scientific
thought as I can tell you that science in its essence does not agree with things like that. In other words science and popular science are two very different things.

The main difference is that science itself is much more boring and dry (at least the one we have today which is devoid of any natural considerations and is prone to make more harm than good). This can also be approached
from another angle by saying that popular science is dangerous as it gives the people a false impression that they
understand something while they do not...

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
He's a journalist.
The last people on earth I would go to in order to receive information as a journalist is interested in selling you
a story and not in giving you information (this is because nobody want to hear the truth and it has very low sales
rates usually - this is because the truth is for free and is all around you).

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
I know a lot of people who know where languages came from.
They say they know. There is a difference between saying you know and knowing. These people studied these
from other people who new just as nothing as they do. My simple understanding is this

Nothing + Nothing + Nothing = Nothing.

This is not knowledge its simply transferring speculations from generation to generation. In order to derive useful
knowledge you have to use some common sense and not just swallow everything other people tell you...especially
if its these people career and they make money out of making you feel that they are smarter than you.

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
brief study of the parts of the brain associated with speech and speech recognition may provide some insight.
A brief study? How's brain have you picked up on?....You seem to have much more equipment and people willing to
participate in your experiments which I am not sure that I can reproduce and I am also not sure that I want because I do not want to open up peoples brains...However, putting aside the fact that you have never conducted
such an experiment even though you present yourself as an expert...It teaches me absolutely nothing and let me explain you why...

I have told you that language is used by human however it is not human made. Let us look at something else...
A vase and flowers...the language is the flower...you are the vase...the vase is not the flower...

What your experiment shows is that after opening up a person's brain you discovered that the human mind is somewhat involved in the process of language...in the words of flowers and vases...you have showed that the vase is indeed a vase and that you can put flowers in it...but where did the flowers came from?....

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Many animals have "languages" or the ability to communicate. Birds have very complex ways of communicating. And chimpanzees are able to learn sign language.
The language of Allah pertains to all the universe not just humans and also not just birds and chimpanzees. However, I have not yet seen a bird read and write and deliver a message over time to the next generation of birds...have you?

format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
don't see what your point is.
You don't see or don't want to see?
Reply

Masuma
06-15-2010, 12:58 PM
See people, some here are so much deceiving that they would **** out nonsense but would not meet your challenge!

If Freethinker, you couldn't meet my challenge, then why do you still keep going on with your absurdity?!

Now I see who has conveniently avoided some challenge here!
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-15-2010, 01:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
See people, some here are so much deceiving that they would **** out nonsense but would not meet your challenge!

If Freethinker, you couldn't meet my challenge, then why do you still keep going on with your absurdity?!

Now I see who has conveniently avoided some challenge here!
It would be good if freethinker would consider to answer this challenge :)
Reply

Masuma
06-15-2010, 01:09 PM
Nothing... Heheehehe!
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-15-2010, 01:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
Seriously brother, didn't you have enough with my sister τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ?!

Look, I respect you bro, but if you want a discussion with me, then its okay. but I always try my best to avoid any type of arguments with my Muslim brothers and sisters! But still if your forcing me to, then I'll accept.
Sister An33za. I am sorry if I have said something that bothered you - I would
like to know what it is. If there is something that bothers you - you should say it and I would take it to full consideration ...
Reply

Mohamed_Sadiq
06-15-2010, 01:15 PM
Calm down people. Don't turn the thread into a supermarket or even worse a pub.

We want ceasfire immediatelty between both forces, or else the Islamic state will interfere and justice will be brought.
Reply

Masuma
06-15-2010, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mohamed_Sadiq
Calm down people. Don't turn the thread into a supermarket or even worse a pub.

We want ceasfire immediatelty between both forces, or else the Islamic state will interfere and justice will be brought.
Heheeehe! Okay! :D

I want justice....:D naaaa! Just kidding!
Reply

Masuma
06-15-2010, 01:21 PM
And yupppiiiiii!!!!!! :awesome: Everyone congratulate me, I've completed the target of 300 posts, now just need sis mod to approve of my membership of the sisters' section! Heeheehe!
Reply

Woodrow
06-15-2010, 01:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mohamed_Sadiq
Calm down people. Don't turn the thread into a supermarket or even worse a pub.

We want ceasfire immediatelty between both forces, or else the Islamic state will interfere and justice will be brought.
Very true, good words for all to heed
Reply

Mohamed_Sadiq
06-15-2010, 01:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
And yupppiiiiii!!!!!! :awesome: Everyone congratulate me, I've completed the target of 300 posts, now just need sis mod to approve of my membership of the sisters' section! Heeheehe!
Congrats, ukhti.
Reply

Muslimeen
06-18-2010, 07:03 AM
A dialogue between an athiest professor and a muslim student
WHY PSEUDO-SCIENCE FAILS TO EXPLAIN GOD
"PROFESSING TO BE WISE, THEY BECOME FOOLS..."
(A DIALOGUE BETWEEN AN ATHEIST PROFESSOR & A MUSLIM STUDENT)
The following scenario takes place at an educational institute:
"Let me explain the problem science has with God..." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and
then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Muslim, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So, you believe in God?"
"Absolutely!"
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good!"
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
The professor grins knowingly and considers for a moment.
"Here's one for you: Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him?
Would you try?"
"Yes, sir. I would."
"So, you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... In fact, most of us would if we could... God
doesn't."
[No answer.]
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer, even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is
this God good? Hmm? Can you answer that one?"
[No answer.]
The elderly man is sympathetic.
"No, you can't, can you?"
He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with
the new ones.
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?"
The student falters.
"From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't He?"
The elderly man runs his fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking student audience.
"I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen."
He turns back to the Muslim. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?"
[No answer.]
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them?"
[No answer.]
The professor suddenly shouts at the student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME. PLEASE!" The professor closes in
for the kill and climbs into the Muslim's face. He speaks in a small, deadly voice, "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"
[No answer.]
The student tries to hold the professor's steady, experienced gaze, but fails.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an ageing, confident panther. The class is
mesmerised. "Tell me..." he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all the evil throughout all time?" The
professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, the pain, all
the torture, all the needless deaths and ugliness, and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world - isn't
it, young man?"
[No answer.]
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" The professor pauses. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's
face again and whispers, "Is God good?"
[No answer.]
"Do you believe in God, son?"
The student's voice betrays him, and in a cracked voice he mutters, "Yes, professor. I do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses that you use to identify and observe the world
around you. You have never seen God, have you?"
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you have ever heard your God?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, or smelt your God? In fact, have you any sensory perception of your God
whatsoever?"
[No answer.]
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet, you still believe in Him?"
"Yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable,
demonstrable protocol, science says that your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God
now?"
[The student does not answer.]
"Sit down, please!"
[The Muslim sits, browbeaten into apparent defeat. However, 'the help of Allah is at hand and victory is imminent.']
Another Muslim, wearing a religious cap, having a beard and easily identified as a Muslim by his dress, lifts his hand
up."Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah! Another Muslim in the vanguard. A Fundamentalist, I see. Come, come, young
man! Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering!"
The Muslim ignores the sarcasm in the tone of the professor. He looks around the room, waits for the attention of the
students and turns to the professor. "Sir, you have made some interesting points. With your permission,sir, I would like to
tackle each point individually. This subject has to be tackled logically and scientifically, and not emotionally. The first
point is your basic doctrine that God does not exist. The universe, therefore, started with the doctrine of 'The Big Bang'
and through a process of evolution, Man finally came into existence. Is that not your belief, professor?"
"My son, it goes without saying. There is enough scientific evidence for this. What are you getting at?"
"Let us not be hasty. Let us use logic and reason and proper scientific argument. As a preamble, I wish to point out that I
use the word 'doctrine' knowingly, for the priests of pseudo-science are, in fact, merely promoting atheism as a religion. I
have a question for you, professor. We have in this world millions upon millions of fireworks, ammunition and bombs.
Have you heard of any going off spontaneously, or do you admit that, although the ingredients may be in existence in a
container, there is required a detonating mechanism to set off the explosions? Two factors have to be present: firstly, the
correct ingredients in correct amounts in a suitable environment; and, secondly, somebody to set off the explosion,
whether it be by means of a match stick, or the hammer of a pistol, or some electrical spark. For example, if somebody
said that he had a bullet in his hand and it went off on its own and killed somebody sitting nearby, would any scientist
accept such a ludicrous statement?"
"Of course not. What are you trying to say?"
"Surely, then, if you want us to believe in the Big Bang, that a massive explosion took place on its own without anybody
there to 'pull the trigger' or 'light a match' or 'electrical spark' then explain to us how smaller bangs are not taking place all
over the world without any external agency? Any scientific claim has to be reproducible for it to be accepted."
The professor's mouth opens, but no words come out.
"Also, we know that it is scientifically impossible for matter to create itself. Take this wooden desk. It did not come into
existence by itself. Some external agency had to make it. Even the wood did not come into existence by itself. It came
from a seed that was planted and nourished. The seed itself came from some source and could not come into existence
by itself. Can you explain to us how the original matter came into existence - matter that the priests of pseudo-science
state was ignited by the mysterious Big Bang to produce the first living matter? Also, why are your priests not able to
reproduce this phenomenon in the laboratory? Professor, you must know that any scientific argument must be
reproducible for it to have any scientific credence."
"Son, it is naive to thing that we can do such a thing. The energy that was unleashed with the Big Bang was such that we
do not have access to, otherwise we would also have reproduced the same phenomenon."
"Professor, you have not told us who provided the basic ingredients, and you are unable to tell us who it was who pushed
the button or pulled the trigger or lit the matches for the Big Bang to take place. Where did this tremendous energy, that
you are speaking about, originate? Come, come, professor! Let us be scientific about it. Yes, professor, it takes a lot of
FAITH in the doctrinal teachings of the priests of pseudo-science to believe in the Big Bang. Do you expect us to discard
proper scientific principles and believe in all this hocus-pocus on blind faith in the face of definitive scientific principles?"
[No answer.]
"If you don't mind, professor, I will now go on to the doctrine of evolution as promulgated by the priests of pseudoscience.
You are aware that no fossils have been shown that would directly link the descent of Man from the apes and
that there is a constant search for what is termed, the 'Missing Link'?"
"Yes, but there is so much other evidence..."
"Sorry to interrupt, professor. You admit there is no direct link. You must also admit that there are no fossils showing
definite intermediary steps in the transition from ape to Man. And I'm sure you are also aware of the Piltdown Forgery,
professor?"
"Piltdown...? Piltdown...?"
"Let me refreshen your memory, professor. Some fossils were discovered in a place called Piltdown in England. These
fossil-remains showed all the features that all the priests of pseudo-science and atheism were searching for as the
'Missing Link' in the chain of evolution. The whole world was led to believe in it, and even the sceptics were convinced -
until it was found, some forty years later, that someone from the scientist-priest fraternity had 'doctored' the fossils to
make them appear to be the missing link. It was a big lie, a massive forgery that your priests had forged to try and
convince the world that the religion of atheism was true and Man had descended from the apes! If you want more
enlightenment on it you can read the works of Professor Tobias, of South Africa, on the details of the forgery."
The professor's face goes an ashen white. Still no comment.
"Speaking about forgeries - professor, do you know what is plagiarism? Can you explain to the class what is plagiarism?"
Rather hesitantly, the professor speaks, "Plagiarism is to take somebody else's work and pass it off as one's own."
"Correct. Thank you, professor. If you were to take the trouble of doing a bit of honest and truthful research you will find
that the Western nations had plagiarised all the TRUE scientific works of the Muslims and then built on it and passed
them off as their own 'discoveries', which led to modern scientific progress. You don't have to take my word for it. Just
write to the 'Centre for Studies on Science', Al-Humera, Muzzammil Manzil, Dodhpur, Aligarh, India, and they will gladly send you all the relevant literature to prove this point."
By now the class is fully attentive to the Muslim student's words and they hastily jot down the address.
"Let us come back to the doctrine of evolution which the priests of pseudo-science have fostered on the world. The backbone
of all their doctrines is the concept of 'natural selection'. This means that species adapted to the changes in the
environment by a change in morphology and physiology, changes which they then passed on to succeeding generations,
enabling them to survive; while those species which did not adapt, became extinct. The classic example given is that of
the dinosaurs which could not compete with smaller, more agile animals which had miraculously 'evolved', thus the
bigger, more slower animals became extinct, whilst the smaller animals survived. Also, during the course of evolution
what was of no use anymore, disappeared, like tails and claws, being replaced with tail-less species with hands which
could hold, the final result being Man. You do subscribe to this doctrine, don't you, professor?"
The poor professor is unsure whether to nod or not, as he is uncertain from which angle the next salvo is coming!
"Come, come, professor! This is the cornerstone of the doctrine of evolution which you priests have been brainwashing
the unwary masses with. Let us challenge this pseudo-science with true science. Professor, has any scientist ever
produced any new species of life in his laboratory by controlling and changing the environment? Remember, science can
only accept material doctrines if they are reproducible."
[No answer.]
"Of course not, even though attempts have been made, sure enough! Let us go a step further: We know that the Jews
circumcise their male offspring very soon after birth. We also know that circumcision has been practised by them in an
unbroken chain since the time of Abraham (A.S.). As a result, certain illness patterns have changed. Any male child with
an inherited bleeding tendency would have died from bleeding and this disease would not have passed on to the next
generation. You agree, professor?"
The professor nods eagerly, thinking that this is a point in his favour.
"So, tell us, professor, after thousands of years of circumcising all male infants, why are Jewish children not born without
a foreskin? Even if the whole foreskin was not missing, according to the doctrine of natural selection of your priests, there
should be some signs of the foreskin getting smaller! Don't you agree, professor?"
The poor professor just stares blankly ahead, not knowing what hit him!
"Professor, do you have children?"
Somewhat relieved at the change of topic, the professor tries to muster some of his previous confidence. "Yes, I do. I
have two boys and a girl." The professor even manages to smile when he mentions his children.
"Professor, did you breast-feed them when they were infants?"
Somewhat taken aback by this obviously silly question, the professor blurts out. "What a stupid question! Of course, I did
not! My wife did the breast-feeding."
"Professor, have your priests ever discovered any males who breast-feed infants?"
"Again a stupid question. Only females breast- feed infants."
"Professor, without undressing you, I am certain that you have two nipples, just like all other males. Why have these not
disappeared because of redundancy? According to the doctrine of natural selection, such useless items as nipples in
males, should have disappeared in all males thousands - if not millions - of years ago! Professor," the Muslim student
spoke gently, he did not shout and he did not push his face into that of the professor's, "I'm sure that, based on proper
scientific argument - and not on pseudo-science - you will agree that the doctrine of evolution is just a big load of
rubbish?"
The professor's face changes a number of colours and all he can do is splutter helplessly.
The Muslim student turns to the class of students and addresses them with a wisp of a smile on his lips. "In fact, one can
go further and state that whoever believes he is descended from the apes, must be a monkey!"
It takes a few moments for the class to catch on to the pun in the Muslim student's statement, but the moment it hits
home, they roar with laughter.
When the students recover from their laughter the Muslim student continues. Turning to the professor, he says, "There
are so many holes in the doctrine of evolution that it leaks like a sieve. However, time is running out - I have to rush to
the Mosque for prayers shortly - so we will not deal with all the myths now. Let us go on to the topic of morality that you
raised. But, before that, let us look at the point you may about your brother dying of cancer. If you are upset that he died,
then you are absolutely foolish. That human beings, as well as all living matter, will certainly die is such an established
fact, that it is believed in by all people, irrespective of whether they believe in God or not, and nobody can really object to the process of death. Secondly, you cannot be so naive as to object to the process of illness - whether it being cancer or
any other illness, or an accident, etc. - as a prelude to the process of death. Your objection stems from your
misconception that 'goodness' is to relieve suffering, and to cause suffering is being 'cruel'. If this was so, then,
professor, you have no choice but to agree that the cruellest people in the world are the medical research-scientists who
use animals for all their horrible experiments. Surely you must be aware of the thousands upon thousands of animals that
are tortured in different ways and made to suffer a million agonies to prove or disprove certain scientificand medical
claims? Are these experimenters not cruel? You're still with me, professor?"
The professor looks quite ill. The Muslim student goes across and gives him some water to drink.
"Professor, I'm going to ask you another obvious question. You are aware of examinations - tests that are given to
students in order for them to pass and be promoted to the next grade?"
The professor merely nods his head.
"A student has to make certain sacrifices, and even live away from home, to attend a university or college; he has to
deprive himself of all home comforts; he is loaded with work; he has to give up his leisure time and his sleep in order to
get ready for the examinations; then he is faced with horribly difficult questions to answer in the examination and he may
also be grilled in his oral examination - and he still has to pay the institution for putting him through this torturing process! -
you do not consider all this to be cruel? Is the professor a 'good' person for all the mental and physical suffering he is
putting the student through?"
"I do not see your point. Of course, the institution and the professor are doing the student a favour by putting him through
a training process in order for him to qualify in his particular field. Only a very short-sighted person would object to
students having to write examinations, irrespective of the sacrifices they have to make."
The Muslim student sadly shakes his head. "Professor, it is amazing how you can understand the need for tests and
examinations when you have to set them, but you can't see the same wisdom when God sets tests and examinations for
His creatures. Take your brother - if he withstood the test of his illness and he died with faith, what we term as Imaan - he
will be rewarded abundantly in Paradise for the suffering that he underwent here. So much so, that he would wish that he
had suffered a hundred times more so that his reward would be so much greater, a reward that no eye has seen and no
mind has imagined! Unfortunately, 'only a very short-sighted person' - and an ignorant one - would object to the tests
placed on His creation by God, bearing in mind the everlasting rewards awaiting those who are successful."
"Paradise? Huh! Have you seen Paradise, touched it, smelt it, tasted it, heard it? According to the rules of empirical,
testable, demonstrable protocol, science says that your Paradise doesn't exist."
"We will come to that point also, God willing. Let us continue. Tell me, professor, is there such a thing as heat?"
The professor has recovered somewhat and he is feeling more confident. "Yes, there's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, there's cold, too."
"No, sir. There isn't!"
The professor just stares blankly. The student explains, "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, megaheat,
white heat, or - at the opposite pole - a little heat, or no heat, but we can't have anything called 'cold'. We can reach
458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go further beyond that. There is no such thing as 'cold', otherwise
we would be able to go colder than 458 degrees below zero. You see, sir, 'cold' is only a word we use to describe the
absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not
the opposite of heat but merely the absence of heat."
Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the room.
The Muslim student continues. "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"
"So, you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."
"You're wrong again, sir! Darkness is not an entity - it is the absence of an entity. It is the absence of light. One can have
dim light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. If one has no light constantly then one has nothing, and this is called
darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, one would be able to
create darkness in a positive way and makedarkness darker and obtain it in a container. Can you fill a jar with darker
darkness for me, professor?"
"Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. The point I'm making is that your philosophical premise is flawed, to start with, and so your conclusion
must be in error. You are not scientific, but pseudo-scientific!"
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"
The Muslim student is very cool and calm, and he speaks gently, as if to a little child. "Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
The students in the class eagerly nod their heads. They are all ears. The professor has no alternative but to consent.
"Explain... oh, explain..." He waves his hand indifferently, in an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. The class is silent, expectant.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the Muslim student explains, "that, for example, there is life and then there's
death, two different entities; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as a finite entity, an entity
we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain what a thought is. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never
seen them, much less understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death
cannot exist as a substantive entity. Death is not the opposite of life, but merely the absence of life."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from one of the other student's desks. "Here is one of the most
disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is. Now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such a thing as injustice? No, sir.
Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Muslim student pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of
good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming colour. He is so angry that he is temporarily speechless.
The Muslim student continues. "If there is evil in this world, professor - and we all agree that there is - then God must be
accomplishing some work through the agency of evil. What is that work that God is accomplishing? Islam tells us it is to
see if each one of us will choose good over evil."
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a
realist, I absolutely do not recognise the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world
equation, because God is not observable."
"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code is probably one the most observable phenomena going," the
Muslim student replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week. Professor, you have tried to put the
blame of the evil in this world on the shoulders of God - in whom you don't believe - which is an obvious contradiction.
However, let us analyse who is really responsible for the spread of evil - those who believe in God, or those who don't? A
fundamental belief that a Muslim has is that of being resurrected on the Day of Judgement and answering for his actions
in this world. For every good that he did he will be rewarded, and for every evil that he committed he will be held
responsible. Every Muslim has to believe that he/ she is responsible for his/her actions and that nobody else will bear
his/her burden on the Day of Judgement. The concept of Paradise being a reward for the believers and that Hell will be
the abode of the disbelievers, the infidels, is also a fundamental belief, as well as the belief that even Muslim wrongdoers
will be punished for their misdeeds. Professor, these concepts have stopped countless millions of Muslims from
committing wrong. We all know that punishment is a strong deterrent for committing crimes. Without this concept we
would not be able to run our worldly affairs: fines, penalties, jail sentences are part and parcel of any civilised system. On
the other hand we have the priests of atheism who do not believe in these concepts when they are mentioned in relation
to moral issues. To them there is no Day of Judgement, no accountability, no reward, no punishment. The message to
the masses is quite clear, that 'if you can get away with it then you are O.K. You have nothing to worry about'. Also,
seeing that they state that there is no such thing as sin - sin, in our context, means going against the Laws of God - each
individual is free to do anything he wishes and no action can be labelled as 'wrong'. Let me put it this way: the atheist
priests maintain that God does not exist. If He does not exist, then He can't have set down any rules of what is right and
what is wrong - thus there can't be sin, sin means going against the wishes of God. So, man is free to make up his own
rules, his own code of 'morality'. Thus men get 'married' to men; women get 'married' to women; to spread AIDS and
other diseases is O.K.; there is nothing sinful with adultery and fornication, as long as those involved are 'consenting
adults'; according to the logic of the atheists even incest would not be sinful if theparties are 'consenting adults', seeing
incest is a sin based on a code of morality with its basis being religion, whereas the professor has categorically stated
that he 'absolutely does not recognise the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world
factor'; to kill infants in their mothers' wombs is fine - it is exercising the 'rights' that the woman has; and so forth. The list
of 'rules' passed by the atheist social pseudo-scientists priests is endless. The height of intellectual dishonesty is to place
the blame for the spread of this immorality and filth on God! Let us be scientific about the whole issue, professor. Take a
group of people who are God-conscious - who believe in Him as he should be believed in - and take a group of people
who are adherents to your atheistic creed. Assess, objectively, who is spreading evil. I don't wish to labour the point, but
any objective observer will immediately see that the group of God-conscious people who use the Laws of the Almighty as
their code of morality, are in fact, spreading goodness; whereas the those who make up their own rules of 'relative
morality' are, in fact, the one's spreading evil throughout the world."
The Muslim student pauses for these important remarks to sink in. The eyes of the students in the class light up as they
see these issues in a clearer light. Nobody had ever explained these important issues to them before, having being
brought up on the diatribe spewed forth by the mass media.
"Professor, I am amazed, but not surprised, at your unscientific attitude to morality. I am amazed that, even though you
believe that Man evolved from the apes, he will not behave like an animal! I am amazed that, even though you do not
believe in angels, you expect Man to behave like one on his own accord, without the assistance of a Divine moral code.
The reason that I'm not surprised is that such muddled thinking is to be expected from those who are adherents of the
false creed of atheism!"
There is a burst of spontaneous applause from the class.
"We have already discussed evolution, professor. Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives the student a silent, stony stare.
"Professor, since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is
an ongoing endeavour, are you not teaching a doctrine - a doctrine that leaks like a sieve and has less merit to it that any
theological teachings? This is pseudo-science, not science, and its proponents are nothing but its ignorant priests!"
The professor goes blue in the face. "What impudence!" He huffs and puffs and strides up and down in front of the class,
finally managing to regain some of his self control. "In the light of our philosophical discussion, I'll overlook your
impudence, son. Now, have you quite finished?" The words come out as a hiss.
"Sir, you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's science."
"Sir, with due apologies, what you believe in is not science, but pseudo-science - and your pseudo-science is also
flawed!"
"PSEUDO-SCIENCE.....? FLAWED...?" The professor looks as if he is going to have a fit. The class is in an uproar. The
Muslim student stands cool and calm, that wisp of a smile back on his face.
When the commotion subsides, he continues, "You see, professor, TRUE SCIENCE is to discover the laws and designs
that the Creator of the universe has put into the system of the running of the universe, from the mega to the micro, from
the measurable to the immeasurable. Pseudo- science is an atheistic religion that tries to oppose this concept by
forgeries, manipulation of statistics, half-truths, etc. Pseudo-science postulates a mythical unnamed force -their own,
man-made, false deity - caused a Big Bang and then started a process of evolution that is contrary to what actually
happened. The priests of this atheistic religion are the ones that try to justify the gibberish that must accompany such
falsehood by means of forgeries, half-truths and manipulation of data. Truth must win - the truth of the logical conclusion
anybody with any sense can deduce, that there is one God (Allah) Who is the Creator of the whole universe. He created
the whole system whereby the whole universe has been running smoothly from time immemorial. Let us go back to the
point you had made earlier to the other student and which I said I will deal with later. I will give you an example which
everyone can follow: Is there anyone in the class who has seen air, oxygen molecules, atoms, the professor's brains?"
The class breaks out in laughter.
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt it, smelt it or tasted it?" Nobody says anything. The
Muslim student sadly shakes his head. "It appears that no one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's
brains whatsoever. Well, according to the rules enunciated by the professor himself, the rules of empirical, stable,
demonstrable protocol of the professor's pseudo-science I HEREBY DECLARE that the professor has no brains!"
The professor buckles into a chair. The class again applauds spontaneously.
The student goes and ministers some water to the professor. After a while he recovers. He glares at the student. "Your
insults in no way proves the existence of God."
The Muslim student replies. "Professor, I'm really surprised. I would have thought that you would have conceded defeat.
But, it seems that you are a glutton for punishment."
He pauses, looks very thoughtfully at the class and then at the professor. With a heavy sigh he addresses the professor
again. "Sir, you have parents - you have a father and a mother?"
"Another of your stupid questions. It is obvious that we all have parents."
"Be patient, sir. Are you certain that your father is your father and that your mother is your mother?"
The professor goes livid. "How preposterous! OF COURSE, MY FATHER IS MY FATHER AND MY MOTHER IS MY
MOTHER!" He is shouting.
The Muslim student pauses. The pause becomes lengthy. There is an eerie atmosphere suddenly as the students sit on
the edge of their chairs. With a quiet well controlled voice, the Muslim student says, "Prove it to me!"
The atmosphere is electric. The professor is unable to control himself. His face changes to a purple hue. "HOW DARE
YOU!" He is shouting even louder, quite beside himself. "I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR INSULTS..! GET OUT OF MY
CLASS..! I'LL REPORT YOU TO THE RECTOR...!
The class sits petrified at the outburst. Is the professor heading for a fit or a stroke?
The Muslim student stands his ground, unruffled. Facing the class he lifts his hand up, reassuring them that there is
nothing to worry about. He then turns his compassionate eyes on the professor. A force appears to emanate from his
eyes, directed at the professor. The professor cannot maintain his stare. His gaze drops. His anger subsides. He flops
back into his chair and holds his head in his hands.
After a few minutes, the Muslim student speaks, very gently. "Dear professor, I am not implying that your parents are not
your parents. All I am trying to point out is that neither you, nor me, nor any of us in this class can prove that our parents
are our parents or not."
Complete silence.
"The reason is that we did not witness the act of intercourse between our parents when we were conceived. We were not
present to identify whose sperm it was that fertilised the ovum in our mother's womb. We take our parents word for it that
they are our parents. We consider our parents to be honest and truthful in the matter. We do not question them their
integrity. In the same way, your children will have to take your word that you are their father and that their mother is really their mother. Is that not so, professor?"
The professor lifts up his head. He looks up at the Muslim student. One can see his face clearing up as some
understanding dawns on him. The anger is gone. Very slowly he repeats, "We take the words of our parents.. We take
the words of our parents..."
"Yes, professor. There are so many things that we have to take the word of others. The existence of air, of oxygen, of
molecules, of atoms, and so forth. So, when it comes to matters that are metaphysical, from our real scientific research
we know that there have been no persons existing in the world more honest and reliable than those who are termed
Messengers (Rasools). We Muslims are prepared to stake our lives on the fact that Muhammed - peace be on him - had
an absolutely flawless character. He never lied to anybody. His integrity was such that even his avowed enemies called
him 'Al-Ameen' (the Truthful).If he said that God (Allah) exists - and we are prepared to accept the word of our parents
that they are our parents- then, in all sincerity and honesty, we have to accept his word for it, as we have to accept many
other things - the existence of Paradise and Hell; the existence of angels; the coming of the Day of Judgement;
accounting to God for our deeds in this world; and many other concepts. Besides this one point, there are many other
pointers to the existence of God (Allah).The Revelation called 'Al-Quran' is there for anybody to study. It has
certainspecific challenges for anybody who has any doubts. These challenges have not been met in the fourteen
hundred years of its existence. If one is not prepared to believe in such a Messenger - peace be on him - then it is pure
hypocrisy to accept the word of scientists, whose doctrines keep on changing, and even to believe in the word of our
parents. Judging from the number of law-suits that take place every year in our courts, where parents deny parentage of
their offspring, and also taking into account that there are innumerable babies conceived from donor sperms of men who
are strangers, and also the fact that innumerable infants are adopted in infancy by childless couples and brought up as
their own children, statistically there is room for a large degree of error in any person's claim that his/her parents are
really his/her biological parents."
Turning to the class the Muslim student concludes. "It is every individual's duty to learn more about Islam. Al-Quran is
there for everybody to study. Enough literature also available on Islam. It is my duty only to inform you that the only Truth
is Islam. There is no compulsion in religion. Clearly the right way has become distinct from error; And he who rejects
false deities and believes in Allah (God), has grasped a firm handhold which will never break; And Allah is All-Hearing
and All-Knowing. Having informed you, it is also my duty to invite you to join the brotherhood of Muslims by embracing
Islam. Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of darkness into the light. As for those
who disbelieve, their guardians are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness... These are verses from Al-
Quran - Words of the Almighty - which I have quoted to you."
The Muslim student looks at his watch. "Professor and students, I thank you for having giving me the opportunity to
explain these issues to you. If you would kindly excuse me, I have to go to the mosque for my prayers. Peace on those
who are rightly guided."
[Author unknown]
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-18-2010, 09:52 PM
Science can never disprove God or prove God, because God is a non-falsifiable claim. What science can do is disprove specific testable claims made by those who believe in God (which have become rarer over time). But once these claims are disproved, the believers then simply move the goal posts on how God did something etc. It is a futile exercise in the end. You will never be able to prove or disprove something that is subjective (exclusively of the mind) and not tangible and objectively testable.
Reply

Asiyah3
06-18-2010, 10:49 PM
********edit******** (I'm sorry, nothing)
Reply

Trumble
06-20-2010, 08:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Ibn Yus
What do you mean evolved? I do not see any evolution ...You seem to not understand the point.
An evolution is a slow process. Do you have any notebooks or any sort of history in which you
can see on a period of years how greek "morphed" into latin?

Think about it. In order for greek to one day turn into latin is the equivalent of all the people in
America today turning one day into Japanese...you see, this argument does not hold water.
Humans use language however they did not form it and that is the end of the story. You can
say that you do not feel comfortable with that and want to hide it with all sorts of fairy tales
but this is simply the way it is.

Minimal research will show you that the universally accepted theory among people with the slightest idea what they are talking about is that such 'evolution' (specifically from the Cumae variant) is exactly what did occur. Amazingly, this theory came about from the study of just such 'notebooks', or at least their equivalents in stone tablets!

You don't see or don't want to see?
Ahem...
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-20-2010, 09:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Minimal research will show you that the universally accepted theory among people with the slightest idea what they are talking about is that such 'evolution' (specifically from the Cumae variant) is exactly what did occur. Amazingly, this theory came about from the study of just such 'notebooks', or at least their equivalents in stone tablets!
I will answer you, hower putting aside your choice of words refarding minimal research which you said even though I am sure you have not inspected these stone tablets by yourself and have no real access to such tablets...

People would just believe in anything...

as long as it is not Allah people in the modern world would be willing to buy just into anything.

I might not be in the sharpest person but I know a bit about human nature and I find it much more reasonable that somebody would fake tablets like this so that everybody would think that he is smart and knowledgable - this fits much more human nature as in reality people can't care least about honesty and truthful reasearch and are in generaly very fake...

so you want me to believe something just because somebody shows me some stone with scribbles on it? I am sorry I do not know much about stones and scribbles and it teaches me nothing ..I know about people and I know that people are hardly capable of deciding for themselves what to eat for lunch so you want to tell me that they are capable to come up with Latin, Greek and Arabic? Sorry, I do not buy that....
Reply

Trumble
06-20-2010, 11:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Ibn Yus
I might not be in the sharpest person but I know a bit about human nature and I find it much more reasonable that somebody would fake tablets like this so that everybody would think that he is smart and knowledgable - this fits much more human nature as in reality people can't care least about honesty and truthful reasearch and are in generaly very fake...
Are you seriously suggesting that every scholastic enterprise that doesn't happen to agree comfortably with your own view of reality must be some sort of 'fake'? There is not even any serious dispute on this matter, as far as I am aware. Surely, in terms 'human nature', the word that really comes to mind in your case is 'denial'?

so you want me to believe something just because somebody shows me some stone with scribbles on it?
You are quite happy to believe something because somebody shows you a piece of paper with scribbles on it. It's called the Qu'ran. Any status you believe it may have beyond just scribbles on paper you must have assigned to it either on the basis of those scribbles, or on the basis of what somebody else told you.

I know about people and I know that people are hardly capable of deciding for themselves what to eat for lunch so you want to tell me that they are capable to come up with Latin, Greek and Arabic? Sorry, I do not buy that....
Some people can't. Others though can write great literature, compose mighty symphonies, make great scientific discoveries... and even actively invent new languages rather than just talking part in their gradual evolution. Ever heard of Esperanto?

I can't understand your seemingly desperate need to demean your own species just to be able to assign some of its most notable achievements to God. Even from your own perpective it makes no sense, as surely just with gifts for literature, mathematics and philosophy, God could also gift souls with a talent for linguistics?!
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-20-2010, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Are you seriously suggesting that every scholastic enterprise that doesn't happen to agree comfortably with your own view of reality must be some sort of 'fake'? There is not even any serious dispute on this matter, as far as I am aware. Surely, in terms 'human nature', the word that really comes to mind in your case is 'denial'?
I have not yet seen a scholarlistic effort. Any attempt to explain the world by reaserch which is mixed with ego and economical intrests is bound to be wrong and
nothing good can come out of it in the long run.

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
You are quite happy to believe something because somebody shows you a piece of paper with scribbles on it. It's called the Qu'ran. Any status you believe it may have beyond just scribbles on paper you must have assigned to it either on the basis of those scribbles, or on the basis of what somebody else told you.
First of all you are being disrespectful. Second of all the Quran has to do with my life and he guides me and tells me how to live it. Third of all and beyond anything although the
quran is ink on paper as is any book which we humans read it is quite clear to me that this book is from Allah and you are welcome to read it and to check it out for yourself. Contarary to you also - I absolutly do not base my lifes belief on what others have told me.

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Some people can't. Others though can write great literature, compose mighty symphonies, make great scientific discoveries... and even actively invent new languages rather than just talking part in their gradual evolution. Ever heard of Esperanto?
I have never met these people. In fact most of the people I know have never written a symphony or a literature masterpiece but are rather ordinary human beings. In fact
it is you that believe in super natural things and not me. Also, you want me to base my whole belief in linguisitics on Esperanto? Creating a language might be the easy part
but making the people speak it is much harder - as you can see. Do you know anybody who speaks Esperanto? I do not - yet I know enoguh people who speak Arabic, English
and Greek - what - the greek inventors where more efficent and charismatic?

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I can't understand your seemingly desperate need to demean your own species just to be able to assign some of its most notable achievements to God. Even from your own perpective it makes no sense, as surely just with gifts for literature, mathematics and philosophy, God could also gift souls with a talent for linguistics?!
Of course I do not demean people. People have great gifts and achievments for making war, crulety and to not see things which are in front of their eyes and indeed there
is nobody who does these things better than us. If somebody has a talent in any field of human activity and he would wish to use it to praise Allah and to spread belief
in Allah around the world he is most encouraged to do so - but if he does not and does not give credit to Allah for his talents then I think it is not ok and also a bit wicked.
Reply

Trumble
06-20-2010, 04:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Ibn Yus
I have not yet seen a scholarlistic effort. Any attempt to explain the world by reaserch which is mixed with ego and economical intrests is bound to be wrong and
nothing good can come out of it in the long run.
I'm not quite sure what your point is. Are you saying, by extension that you don't 'believe' in gravity because you didn't happen to be passing when an apple dropped on Sir Isaac Newton's head? What ego and economic interests are you talking about? As I said, it is not as if this topic is like evolution or abiogenesis where there is some actual dispute.

First of all you are being disrespectful. Second of all the Quran has to do with my life and he guides me and tells me how to live it. Third of all and beyond anything although the
quran is ink on paper as is any book which we humans read it is quite clear to me that this book is from Allah and you are welcome to read it and to check it out for yourself. Contarary to you also - I absolutly do not base my lifes belief on what others have told me.
I had no intention of being disrespectful, and apologise if I came across that way. But you have said nothing that contests my point. Of course you believe the Qur'an comes from Allah, but you can only have reached that belief either by reading it yourself, or from what others told you, or a combination of both; there are no other possibilities. Exactly the same is true of every other muslim, bar obviously the Prophet himself.

I have never met these people. In fact most of the people I know have never written a symphony or a literature masterpiece but are rather ordinary human beings.
Of course, but surely a glance through any bookshop or music store provides convincing empirical evidence that such people do exist? Most of them were and are ordinary human beings too, they just have one special talent. Most do for something or other.

Creating a language might be the easy part but making the people speak it is much harder - as you can see. Do you know anybody who speaks Esperanto? I do not - yet I know enoguh people who speak Arabic, English and Greek - what - the greek inventors where more efficent and charismatic?
Actually, Greek was generally only spoken as a first language by Greeks. It's widespread adoption was mostly as a lingua franca, and that came about for a variety of reasons, not least that the Greeks travelled and traded a lot. A far better comparison today is not Esperanto but English, in that there are some careers for which a knowledge of that language is essential whichever country you come from. The reason for that is simply a certain combination of historical circumstances, not any superiority of the language itself (it's actually an awful one to learn compared with some others) or divine intervention.
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-20-2010, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I'm not quite sure what your point is. Are you saying, by extension that you don't 'believe' in gravity because you didn't happen to be passing when an apple dropped on Sir Isaac Newton's head? What ego and economic interests are you talking about? As I said, it is not as if this topic is like evolution or abiogenesis where there is some actual dispute.
1. No. I indeed do not believe in the theory of gravity but not by extension of this idea but rather in an independent way. I
do not believe in it simply because it is incomplete and wicked.

2. I do not know what you mean that there is no-dispute. The issue of evolution is fashinable and people have sticked to it
in the last 200 years or so but actually from a religous point of view almost all of the scientific mindset is completely off
track and leads to dangerous conceptions of life.


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I had no intention of being disrespectful, and apologise if I came across that way. But you have said nothing that contests my point. Of course you believe the Qur'an comes from Allah, but you can only have reached that belief either by reading it yourself, or from what others told you, or a combination of both; there are no other possibilities. Exactly the same is true of every other muslim, bar obviously the Prophet himself.
I do not understand why you bring this argument as it is simply not the case. Regarding the Quran it is simply easy for me and clear to see that it is a book written by Allah and I
do not understand why anybody would think otherwise.

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Of course, but surely a glance through any bookshop or music store provides convincing empirical evidence that such people do exist? Most of them were and are ordinary human beings too, they just have one special talent. Most do for something or other.
From a scientific point of view this is a wrong deduction as just by the fact that I go to a book store and see there the words "Tolstoy" or I see on a CD the words "Mozart" does
not imply that it has been written or composed by a person. If I would have met Tolstoy ot Mozart and seen it with my own eyes I would have believed that they wrote it but I haven't had the chance to see even a mildly talented person in my personal life definentaly not in this level. So if one wants to be sceintific you need to work according to the right standarts.

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Actually, Greek was generally only spoken as a first language by Greeks. It's widespread adoption was mostly as a lingua franca, and that came about for a variety of reasons, not least that the Greeks travelled and traded a lot. A far better comparison today is not Esperanto but English, in that there are some careers for which a knowledge of that language is essential whichever country you come from. The reason for that is simply a certain combination of historical circumstances, not any superiority of the language itself (it's actually an awful one to learn compared with some others) or divine intervention.
I won't know about that because again what you are talking about is about something that happened 2000 years ago or more which is much more than any human being can seriously know. Also taking into account that 99% of the people until 100 years ago did not know how to read and write to the best of my understanding - this makes all these historical fairy tales not so interesting.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-20-2010, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Here is a question for you to ponder: Why would an all powerful God communicate his word through writing, which had to be replicated and interpreted and carried to new lands? Why not just place in the minds of us all at creation whatever it is he wants us to know? If you accept the premise that he exists and that the holy book is his word, then that he did the former instead of the latter either seems to indicate he didn't intend to be well understood by all (or even heard by all), and intended the resulting tension between the various religions and sects. An all powerful God certainly could have avoided all the religious conflict we have in this world (and could have prevented atheism too), simply by making us know his word. So why didn't he? Why do we have to read some book and listen to some preacher?
I'd say these are not good questions, not at all.

All-powerful God communicated His word through writing just because He wanted it that way. Just because you think placing His word in our minds is better than placing in a book form, it does not mean that it indeed is better, especially since you have not backed your claim up by any scientific evidence that things can be easily following if they are built into our neurons as we are born compared to if we learn them over our life through reading books. In other words, we have certain instincts which are not acquired. You have not yet shown scientifically that these instincts can be relied upon 100%.

Just because God allowed 9/11 to happen lets say, it does not mean God does not exist. Which is what you are arguing by saying "why did not God stop 9/11? Since He did not, He does not exist in the first place." Why would God need to stop 9/11? Just because people died? Well He takes away lives of people anyways, be it natural death from aging or accidental death at the prime of youth.

I believe that God willed 9/11 and whatever has occurred in this world and universe so far. Certainly my conception of God is quite different from yours. And you being a mulhid (atheist) kaafir is also the Will of God. He chose to base His will on what He knew in advance of what you will do.
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Trumble
06-21-2010, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist

All-powerful God communicated His word through writing just because He wanted it that way. Just because you think placing His word in our minds is better than placing in a book form, it does not mean that it indeed is better, especially since you have not backed your claim up by any scientific evidence that things can be easily following if they are built into our neurons as we are born compared to if we learn them over our life through reading books. In other words, we have certain instincts which are not acquired. You have not yet shown scientifically that these instincts can be relied upon 100%.
What is the relevance of 'scientific evidence'? I thought we were talking about God, and you yourself claim He is omnipotent. Surely if He needed those instincts to be 100% reliable he would just have to engineer them so that they were?
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جوري
06-21-2010, 03:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
What is the relevance of 'scientific evidence'? I thought we were talking about God, and you yourself claim He is omnipotent. Surely if He needed those instincts to be 100% reliable he would just have to engineer them so that they were?
what would be the point of life if everything was predetermined from our point of view?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-21-2010, 04:36 AM
LOL! Really? LOLOL!

I find it hilarious when people start using evolution as a FACT rather than a conjured theory to explain what they can't prove! It's called the THEORY of Evolution, not fact. Why don't we just paste em all the links where this topic was covered?

I hardly think we poofed out of nowhere? And you would actually believe such garbage? Every process has a beginning or something giving it the initial push. Yes even your precious BIG BANG theory. Sorry to say but chaos never gave you organization. If you were to say yes and said this to any layman and/or intelligent being, alone and aside from this topic, they would think you're nuts!
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revert2007
06-21-2010, 05:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
1. It's impossible to prove a negative. Since you are making the claim (that god exists) the burden of proof is on you.
But I do have an argument, here it is:

God supposedly gave man free will.
People whom are mentally ill or mentally retarded have limited control over their actions or impulses.
A mentally ill person in a comatose state or just a normal person in a coma have no free will.
Being that not everybody has free will over the actions of their bodies or the thoughts in their heads not all people were given free will.
If all people do not have free will then god could have not given all people free will.
We only sin because we have free will but since all people do not have free will sin does not exist

First of all welcome to this forum.Well for your question yes it is true that The Creator gives free will to all of us.As for you question to those who are retarded or mentally ill and cannot receive Allah's word,they will be judged on the day of judgement.as mentioned in hadith,a neck will come out fo teh hell fire and Allaah will ask these retarded or mentally ill people to jump into the hell.Those do not believe in Allah will not jump but those believe in Allaah will not hesitate to jump and they will be safed from hell in sha Allah.

For children of any religion who died before the age of puberty enters paradise as children before puberty are sinless and as the nature everyone born Muslim as Islam stands for submisson to one God and those practice this are called Muslims.

Well in this world anything can be proven either negative or positive in sha Allah.When Muslims say God exist,they can bring millions of evidences right before you yet it will be useless for you as your mind setting is that God doesn't exist.

If your are questioning in the manner of learning and want to be guided to the truth,you will get your answer in sha Allah.If you are here to debate and use us as your punching bag,well you will not going to learn anything.
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Pygoscelis
06-21-2010, 08:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
All-powerful God communicated His word through writing just because He wanted it that way.
That is a given. We're accepting the premise that he is all powerful and could do it any way he wanted. That he did it this way means he wanted to do it this way. Which means he wanted everything that came from doing it this way. He limited his message to human language (and just one of them) and gave it to one prophet in one small area of the world. He then had that one prophet spread his message to far lands and to people with different languages and other competing (false) gods. It resulted in a world where his true word is but one of dozens of messages claimed to be that, and where his very existence is believed by only some people and other gods (who he explicitly doesn't want us to worship) are believed in by others. Even those who do know his word to be the true word fight with one another over how to interpret it properly. We have had tension, strife, atrocity, and hatred due to people following what they truly believed (mistakenly) to be his word. As you said, he wanted it this way.

He could have avoided all of the above and simply have made us all know what he wants. There would be no atheists. No Kaafir. No competing interpretations of the Quran. Just perfect knowledge of what was expected of us. Sure, some still may defy Allah, but they'd very few, and assuming he's a good God, they'd be justly punished. He opted instead to intentionally confuse people and ensure his message would not reach all, and not be believed by most that it does reach, and then to punish them for this. As you said, Allah intends me to be an atheist. So why does he punish me for being what he intends me to be? How do you reconcile that with a God that is good?

Why would God need to stop 9/11? Just because people died? Well He takes away lives of people anyways, be it natural death from aging or accidental death at the prime of youth.
I don't ask "why did God not stop 9/11?". I agree with you in asking "Why would God stop 9/11"? I see no reason to assume that if there is a God, he's benevolent or kind, or cares about humanity. Perhaps he created us as toys, to prod and play games with for his amusement. That would certainly fit with his not stopping (and maybe even causing) 9/11, hurricanes, and earthquakes. It would also fit with his choice to confuse everybody about his message and then judge them on it.

So if you believe God is evi (or non-benevolent)l, why do you worship him?

And if you believe God is good (or benevolent), then both these questions remain for you to answer. Why does he intentionally confuse people as to his message and then judge them on it (my question), and why does he allow evil/suffering (your question).

Just because you think placing His word in our minds is better than placing in a book form, it does not mean that it indeed is better, especially since you have not backed your claim up by any scientific evidence that things can be easily following if they are built into our neurons as we are born compared to if we learn them over our life through reading books.
He's God. He created us. He can make us know whatever he wants. Human brain chemistry is his creation. If it limits our ability to understand him, its because he wants it to.
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Pygoscelis
06-21-2010, 08:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
I find it hilarious when people start using evolution as a FACT rather than a conjured theory to explain what they can't prove! It's called the THEORY of Evolution, not fact.
Its also called the Theory of gravity, not fact. Cool thing about science is that it never claims to be 100% certain of anything. There is always room for improving or replacing the prevailing theory. Evolution is our current best guess. It fits the data better than anything else. We're perfectly happy to replace it though if something comes along that fits the data even better.

I hardly think we poofed out of nowhere?
Don't you? That seems to be exactly what creationists believe. That God spoke some magic words and we poofed out of nowhere.

Personally, I don't claim to know the ultimate origin of the universe (if it does indeed even have an origin hasn't hasn't existed forever in one form or another).
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marwen
06-21-2010, 09:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Evolution is our current best guess. It fits the data better than anything else. We're perfectly happy to replace it though if something comes along that fits the data even better.
Evolution is a theory. The Creation theory is another theory. What makes the evolution theory the best guess ? and how does it fit the data better : What data ?
The Evolution Theory does not really explain the origin that all species evolved from : the first cell, the first atom : where does it come from : it poped from nowhere ?
For me nothing makes the evolution theory more convincing, unless you come with an atheistic way of thinking. i.e you're sure that God doesn't exist and therefore the creation process did/does not occur.

For me what makes the evolution theory more acceptable is because natural science teachers in high school are learning us the evolution theory again and again and forgot to tell us that it's a non-proved theory and may be wrong. So we kind a programmed by the evolution theory. I'm not saying it's wrong but as you all said : it's a theory, which is unfortunately not proved yet.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Don't you? That seems to be exactly what creationists believe. That God spoke some magic words and we poofed out of nowhere.
If you want to think logically, there is always an original state where something poofed from nowere. The idea of continuous universe(s) (universe always existed, or come from already existing universe) are to consider if you want to think illogically.
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Trumble
06-22-2010, 06:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
what would be the point of life if everything was predetermined from our point of view?
What makes you think it has to have a point?

Regardless, the issue is easy enough to get around. It would be perfectly possible for an omnipotent God to 'program' a full understanding of what the rules should be without prejudicing the free will needed in deciding whether to follow them, although I suppose that process would no longer be 'instinctive'.



format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
Evolution is a theory. The Creation theory is another theory. What makes the evolution theory the best guess ? and how does it fit the data better : What data ?
The Evolution Theory does not really explain the origin that all species evolved from...
The theory of Evolution makes no claim to such an explanation, which perhaps explains your misunderstanding. For the theist there is no reason to reject the idea that God was responsible both for that first 'spark' of life and for the subsequent evolutionary process.. a process for which, incidently, the perhaps more evidence than any other scientific theory, ever. Personally, I find that far more convincing than obvious creation fables and associated scientific impossibilities. An atheistic viewpoint is not required.

it's a theory, which is unfortunately not proved yet.
NO scientific theory can be. They can only be disproven. If evolution is a 'guess', then so is gravity.

If you want to think logically, there is always an original state where something poofed from nowere. The idea of continuous universe(s) (universe always existed, or come from already existing universe) are to consider if you want to think illogically.
One is no more 'logical' or 'illogical' than the other.
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Ramadhan
06-22-2010, 08:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble

Regardless, the issue is easy enough to get around. It would be perfectly possible for an omnipotent God to 'program' a full understanding of what the rules should be without prejudicing the free will needed in deciding whether to follow them, although I suppose that process would no longer be 'instinctive'.
What makes you think God has not 'programmed" a full understanding of the best rules to live the life and also gifted capacity to live the life according to the rules?
We certainly know that we have free-will to live the life.

On a side note, I am glad no more flying spaghetti monster is brought into discussion.
That's a step forward.
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marwen
06-22-2010, 10:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
NO scientific theory can be. They can only be disproven. If evolution is a 'guess', then so is gravity.
How that ? do you mean scientists make theories and they believe their theories are impossible to prove, they can at most be disproved ?
For you a scientific theory is either wrong or impossible to prove ? Is that applicable to all theories that can exist ? So the whole science will be a fiction.

I think you're wrong here. A theory is a 'guess'(a claim) made after observation and reasoning. This guess can be wrong and can be true. It can be proved or disproved using real evidences (real objects) or logical and mathematical demonstration.

Saying that "the earth is round" (a sphere) was a theory. That theory was proved by real evidence : a trip around the globe by boat was the real evidence.

Saying that "the earth revolves around the sun, and not the opposite" was a theory. That theory was proved by physics calculations and today by astronomical instruments.

A list of Einsteins' theories (relativity, curve trajectory of light, etc.) are being proved for true as technology is progressing.

Some other theories have been disproved.

A theory can be proved, so it becomes a fact. And it can be disproved so it becomes false and rejected.

A theory that is neither proved nor disproved is not an argument or a subject of discussion until it is proved or disproved, unless you're working on proving it.
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DuncG
06-22-2010, 02:57 PM
marwen,

Well, I hope Trumble doesn't mind if I steal some thunder, but one point I always find important in discussions about proof is whether you're talking about absolute proof or using proof in a colloquial sense meaning 'provide evidence for'. In the colloquial sense, science provides 'proof' for a Theory every time it discovers a new fact that fits that Theory. But in the absolute sense no Theory can be 'proven' because it is impossible to know whether you've discovered every single possible fact in the Universe relevant to the Theory in question - there could always be another facet of reality out there waiting to be discovered that doesn't fit. Now, I'm not sure in which sense you're using the term 'proven' because you also mention logical and mathematical proofs, which use the term in its absolute sense.

But, even in the colloquial sense of the term, if you come across a fact that doesn't fit a Theory then you know the Theory is incomplete - even if you don't have absolute knowledge of all possible facts. That's why it is usually said that Theories cannot be (absolutely) proven, yet they can be (absolutely) disproven.

So, in an absolute sense, science can never be sure if it's correct. Thus, it could be termed 'fiction', but only if you redefine fiction to mean everything that isn't absolutely correct - in which case almost all court verdicts could be described as 'fictions' too due to the lack of absolute evidence. More usefully, science can be seen as a methodology that constantly spirals inwards, closer and closer towards the absolute truth. Whether it's ever actually possible to obtain absolute truth will probably only be known if we ever get there.


Which leads back to the subject of this thread. Most theists proclaim that they 'know' the 'absolute' truth. From a rational perspective, as that described for science, above, the corollary of this statement is that someone who knows the absolute truth must be aware of every possible fact in the Universe. If they don't, then there is no way for them to be sure that there aren't facts that can be found that would disagree with the 'absolute' truth they are proposing. How, then, is it possible to claim to know absolute truth?

One way religion tries to claim this is by simultaneously claiming the absolute truth, while claiming that the absolute truth is 'unknowable' - if something is 'unknowable' then no observed fact could ever be used to demonstrate that it isn't the absolute truth. How many times has it been asserted on this board that God or Islam is the absolute/ultimate truth yet that God is beyond our capacity to understand? These two claims are mutually exclusive in an epistemological sense: how is it possible to claim that something that cannot be understood is the absolute truth? By definition, you cannot come to any absolute conclusions to things that are even partially, let alone completely incomprehensible. The religious 'answer' to this inherent irrationality is to 'have faith', or, in other words, to ignore the inherent contradiction and accept the assertion with no qualification - but this provides no satisfactory, rational solution (although it may be a very appealing emotional solution).

I would like to see if this contradiction can be resolved, but I haven't found a solution yet in any of the religious writings I've been over that make these claims.
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Masuma
06-22-2010, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
But in the absolute sense no Theory can be 'proven' because it is impossible to know whether you've discovered every single possible fact in the Universe relevant to the Theory in question - there could always be another facet of reality out there waiting to be discovered that doesn't fit. Now, I'm not sure in which sense you're using the term 'proven' because you also mention logical and mathematical proofs, which use the term in its absolute sense.
leaving the rest of the post for brother marwen to answer, :D ...what are you talking about here, man?!

Didn't you ever hear that there are "laws of science?"

Laws can never ever be dis proven because now they are the LAWS!
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جوري
06-22-2010, 03:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
What makes you think it has to have a point?

Regardless, the issue is easy enough to get around. It would be perfectly possible for an omnipotent God to 'program' a full understanding of what the rules should be without prejudicing the free will needed in deciding whether to follow them, although I suppose that process would no longer be 'instinctive'.
.
Because everything has a point and the opposite of not having a point in this case would simply not to exist.. the mere fact that you exist is already a point and with a point of origin (still unaccounted for) so it isn't an easy issue to get around. I do believe and think that it is instinctive for us to understand morals and the universal code in a generalized and a very crude fashion, but religion merely refines it so that the lines aren't so blurry.. I think an atheist (and because I have tread those lines myself) has to convince his/herself that there is no point and there are no instinctive rules but it takes effort to go against those forces that drive you and once you are actually there, then it is a sorry day (imho). Either way I believe that, a certain percentage would still not be happy with that and ask why not this, why that..

It is the nature and psychology of man and I believe these verses from the noble Quran sum it up beautifully..

Results أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الْإِنْسَانُ أَنَّا خَلَقْنَاهُ مِنْ نُطْفَةٍ فَإِذَا هُوَ خَصِيمٌ مُبِينٌ {77}
[Pickthal 36:77] Hath not man seen that We have created him from a drop of seed? Yet lo! he is an open opponent.
وَضَرَبَ لَنَا مَثَلًا وَنَسِيَ خَلْقَهُ ۖ قَالَ مَنْ يُحْيِي الْعِظَامَ وَهِيَ رَمِيمٌ {78}
[Pickthal 36:78] And he hath coined for Us a similitude, and hath forgotten the fact of his creation, saying: Who will revive these bones when they have rotted away?
قُلْ يُحْيِيهَا الَّذِي أَنْشَأَهَا أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ ۖ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ خَلْقٍ عَلِيمٌ {79}
[Pickthal 36:79] Say: He will revive them Who produced them at the first, for He is Knower of every creation,
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marwen
06-22-2010, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
marwen,

Well, I hope Trumble doesn't mind if I steal some thunder, but one point I always find important in discussions about proof is whether you're talking about absolute proof or using proof in a colloquial sense meaning 'provide evidence for'. In the colloquial sense, science provides 'proof' for a Theory every time it discovers a new fact that fits that Theory. But in the absolute sense no Theory can be 'proven' because it is impossible to know whether you've discovered every single possible fact in the Universe relevant to the Theory in question - there could always be another facet of reality out there waiting to be discovered that doesn't fit. Now, I'm not sure in which sense you're using the term 'proven' because you also mention logical and mathematical proofs, which use the term in its absolute sense.

But, even in the colloquial sense of the term, if you come across a fact that doesn't fit a Theory then you know the Theory is incomplete - even if you don't have absolute knowledge of all possible facts. That's why it is usually said that Theories cannot be (absolutely) proven, yet they can be (absolutely) disproven.

So, in an absolute sense, science can never be sure if it's correct. Thus, it could be termed 'fiction', but only if you redefine fiction to mean everything that isn't absolutely correct - in which case almost all court verdicts could be described as 'fictions' too due to the lack of absolute evidence. More usefully, science can be seen as a methodology that constantly spirals inwards, closer and closer towards the absolute truth. Whether it's ever actually possible to obtain absolute truth will probably only be known if we ever get there.


Which leads back to the subject of this thread. Most theists proclaim that they 'know' the 'absolute' truth. From a rational perspective, as that described for science, above, the corollary of this statement is that someone who knows the absolute truth must be aware of every possible fact in the Universe. If they don't, then there is no way for them to be sure that there aren't facts that can be found that would disagree with the 'absolute' truth they are proposing. How, then, is it possible to claim to know absolute truth?

One way religion tries to claim this is by simultaneously claiming the absolute truth, while claiming that the absolute truth is 'unknowable' - if something is 'unknowable' then no observed fact could ever be used to demonstrate that it isn't the absolute truth. How many times has it been asserted on this board that God or Islam is the absolute/ultimate truth yet that God is beyond our capacity to understand? These two claims are mutually exclusive in an epistemological sense: how is it possible to claim that something that cannot be understood is the absolute truth? By definition, you cannot come to any absolute conclusions to things that are even partially, let alone completely incomprehensible. The religious 'answer' to this inherent irrationality is to 'have faith', or, in other words, to ignore the inherent contradiction and accept the assertion with no qualification - but this provides no satisfactory, rational solution (although it may be a very appealing emotional solution).

I would like to see if this contradiction can be resolved, but I haven't found a solution yet in any of the religious writings I've been over that make these claims.
good point.

But look, if we're gonna play the philosophical game of nothing is absolutely true, we'll never get out. You'll probably be unsure about if you really exist or not, and if your five senses are giving you the true image of reality. You'll be not sure if you ate pizza yesterday, and if you're really drinking real tea right now. And probably you'll lose your job because you don't believe it's your real boss who is talking to you.

There should be some starting points : you can call them axioms, which are conventionally true facts, and used to prove other ideas. These axioms are admitted as true : like "1+1=2", "for every integer N, there exists another successor N+1", "through 2 points we can draw just one segment", etc.

But I'm not talking about if a theory here or there is absolutely true. I'm saying It'll be enough if a theory is proved for me using evidences that I admit as true evidences.

And muslims are not claiming they have absolute truth. Muslims accepted some ideas as true based on evidences they consider as true.
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marwen
06-22-2010, 04:46 PM
this is a double post. please don't reply.
lol
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Trumble
06-22-2010, 05:43 PM
Duplicate, please ignore (or delete)
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Trumble
06-22-2010, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
For you a scientific theory is either wrong or impossible to prove ? Is that applicable to all theories that can exist ? So the whole science will be a fiction.
A scientific theory, or to be precise the prevailing scientific theory, is simply our best explanation for a set of empirical observations. As soon as no longer adequately explains our observations, it is clearly in need of either revision, or outright rejection.

You give good examples yourself. It once was theorized that the earth was a sphere, but it is not! That theory was rejected as it could not accomodate Newton's application of his own 'laws' to the problem, and he first suggested it was in fact an oblate spheriod, which while very close is not a sphere. But, those very Newtonian laws (An33za please note, 'LAWS') turned out to be applicable only as a special case. Yet before Einstein everyone was perfectly happy to accept them as despite a huge wealth of astronomical observations being taken, none seemed to contradict them, or those that did were quietly ignored or assumed to be observational mistakes. Yet while you can (and we did) send a man to the moon based purely on Newtonian physics as the relevant relativistic effects are minimal, for the vast majority of phenomena in the Universe (if not our pereception of it), they do not apply.

A theory can be proved, so it becomes a fact. And it can be disproved so it becomes false and rejected.
That is simply untrue, there are no such 'facts'. A particular observation or observations may be facts, but the explanation for them can only be (at best) a theory. That is why, in this context, evolution is no different from general relativity. It is the accepted scientific theory because it best explains the wealth of empirical evidence we have. As importantly, while there are a great many things it can not (currently) explain there are none that demonstrate it is not 'true' even if it may need some tweaking. And it gets forgotten very quickly that there has been a considerable amount of such tweaking since Darwin's time.
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Zafran
06-22-2010, 06:58 PM
salaam

Yeah science the "best" guess work we have at this moment in time. Its funny how some miltant athiests believe its the be all and end all.

edit - by the way i saw the exact same thread on another forum as well - I believe this guy is trolling (the tread starter).

peace
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marwen
06-22-2010, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
A scientific theory, or to be precise the prevailing scientific theory, is simply our best explanation for a set of empirical observations. As soon as no longer adequately explains our observations, it is clearly in need of either revision, or outright rejection.

You give good examples yourself. It once was theorized that the earth was a sphere, but it is not! That theory was rejected as it could not accomodate Newton's application of his own 'laws' to the problem, and he first suggested it was in fact an oblate spheriod, which while very close is not a sphere. But, those very Newtonian laws (An33za please note, 'LAWS') turned out to be applicable only as a special case. Yet before Einstein everyone was perfectly happy to accept them as despite a huge wealth of astronomical observations being taken, none seemed to contradict them, or those that did were quietly ignored or assumed to be observational mistakes. Yet while you can (and we did) send a man to the moon based purely on Newtonian physics as the relevant relativistic effects are minimal, for the vast majority of phenomena in the Universe (if not our pereception of it), they do not apply.
What you say is good, and quite beneficial as it shows the fact that science is not always trustful.
But that's not exactly the answer to my point. First, If some theory T1 is disproved, that doesn't mean, all theories can't be true (I know you know that, but just to make ideas more clear). Second, if a theory T2 is proved as true (with a certain proving system), but then it turned out to be wrong. This doesn't mean that any theory is by convention impossible to prove. We simply were wrong about T2, because the proving system we used was not good, or because the description of that theory was not precise enough.
Let me put a little logical example with the following propositions :
i- a theory T="it rained this morning" (I'm not sure if this theory is true or not).
ii- a proposition P1 = "the wheater is cold"
iii- a proposition P2 = "the street is wet".

I'll use the propositions P1 and P2 to prove that the theory T is true, using the following proving method : M
M = "if the street is wet and the weather is cold, then it rained this morning".
I'll note this implication this way : P1, P2 ===> T (if P1 is true, and P2 is true, then T is true).

Now I'm sure my theory T is true. But when my friend come to me and tell me he was outside all this morning and he's sure it was not rainy, but he saw a worker cleaning the street with water. Now my theory T turned to be wrong. What does this mean ? This mean that one of the hypothesis P1 or P2 is not true, or my proving method M was wrong (indeed the street can be wet without rain).

This simple logical example sums up what you're saying above. But that does not mean every scientific theory is not possible to prove. It can be proved in a given "system of proving". Now if the basic laws of this system that we use to prove are not good, that's another problem. But until a theory is totally disproved, there is a chance that the theory can be proved. If a theory has not a chance to be proved as true one day, then it'll be insane to consider it as a scientific basis.

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
That is simply untrue, there are no such 'facts'. A particular observation or observations may be facts, but the explanation for them can only be (at best) a theory. That is why, in this context, evolution is no different from general relativity. It is the accepted scientific theory because it best explains the wealth of empirical evidence we have. As importantly, while there are a great many things it can not (currently) explain there are none that demonstrate it is not 'true' even if it may need some tweaking. And it gets forgotten very quickly that there has been a considerable amount of such tweaking since Darwin's time.
I'm still confused about what you're saying. I mean you're still insisting on the fact that a theory cannot be proved. I don't know, if you mean by theory = a not yet proved claim, or you may have a different definition of what a theory is. But if you consider a theory as a guess or a claim that can be true or false, then no, you're wrong. A theory is made because it seemed to be probably true from a certain observation. And if it's not yet proved, and we still using it, then that's because it has a big chance to be proven as true one day in a certain science (proving) system, or can be disproved as well.

But if we proved the truth of a theory T 100 years ago, but today, that theory T turned to be false, then the problem is with our system (the science itself), and not with the fact that a theory cannot be proved.

hope this clarified my point.
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Hamayun
06-22-2010, 11:27 PM
He seems to be ignoring the posts that are beyond his comprehension and replying to ones that aren't actually relevant to the topic.

Clearly a troll looking for an argument. I wouldn't waste my breath.
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espada
06-22-2010, 11:45 PM




A gnat
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جوري
06-22-2010, 11:51 PM



a gadfly.. :haha:
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Lynx
06-22-2010, 11:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen


I'm still confused about what you're saying. I mean you're still insisting on the fact that a theory cannot be proved. I don't know, if you mean by theory = a not yet proved claim, or you may have a different definition of what a theory is. But if you consider a theory as a guess or a claim that can be true or false, then no, you're wrong. A theory is made because it seemed to be probably true from a certain observation. And if it's not yet proved, and we still using it, then that's because it has a big chance to be proven as true one day in a certain science (proving) system, or can be disproved as well.

But if we proved the truth of a theory T 100 years ago, but today, that theory T turned to be false, then the problem is with our system (the science itself), and not with the fact that a theory cannot be proved.

hope this clarified my point.
The reason why a theory in science can never be proved is because things are only proven in logic. Logic uses a deductive method which yields 100% certainty and deduction leads to 100% certainty because, in a deduction, you can never go beyond what you already assume to be true. Deduction is useless in discovering things about the world because deduction does not tell you what is actually true; it only tells you what are tautologies. Since only logic gives u 100% truth then it follows there's a chance for everything demonstrated outside of logic to not be true (since their probabilities are < 100%). Hence scientific facts are really theories since they can't go beyond 99.99...% certainty on whether they are true or not. For the sake of simplicity, we just call things that have an abundance of evidence as 'facts' such as the 'fact' that the speed of light is constant. This does not mean science doesn't work it just means we need to understand why logic gives us 100% truth and why this method does not work in determining empirical facts.
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marwen
06-23-2010, 01:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
The reason why a theory in science can never be proved is because things are only proven in logic. Logic uses a deductive method which yields 100% certainty and deduction leads to 100% certainty because, in a deduction, you can never go beyond what you already assume to be true. Deduction is useless in discovering things about the world because deduction does not tell you what is actually true; it only tells you what are tautologies. Since only logic gives u 100% truth then it follows there's a chance for everything demonstrated outside of logic to not be true (since their probabilities are < 100%). Hence scientific facts are really theories since they can't go beyond 99.99...% certainty on whether they are true or not. For the sake of simplicity, we just call things that have an abundance of evidence as 'facts' such as the 'fact' that the speed of light is constant. This does not mean science doesn't work it just means we need to understand why logic gives us 100% truth and why this method does not work in determining empirical facts.
Yes. I agree with that. The point is we are using the same logical proving process with scientific theories. That makes the scientific theory subject to be proven or disproved. But what makes our proving system correct or not is how accurate are the basic axioms and deduction rules (scientific laws) that we admit as true in the first place to develop our deduction.
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Lynx
06-23-2010, 02:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
Yes. I agree with that. The point is we are using the same logical proving process with scientific theories. That makes the scientific theory subject to be proven or disproved. But what makes our proving system correct or not is how accurate are the basic axioms and deduction rules (scientific laws) that we admit as true in the first place to develop our deduction.
Well then what's the argument about? This is obviously what the other posters meant when they said nothing can be proven in science. You can't prove anything in science because science does not have self-evident axioms. The axioms in science have the possibility of not being true (because they are not tautological as is in logic) and that possibility is why scientists call their even most well supported theories as 'theories.
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marwen
06-23-2010, 02:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
Well then what's the argument about? This is obviously what the other posters meant when they said nothing can be proven in science. You can't prove anything in science because science does not have self-evident axioms. The axioms in science have the possibility of not being true (because they are not tautological as is in logic) and that possibility is why scientists call their even most well supported theories as 'theories.
I'm ok with what you said in the previous post. But that's not the idea I was talking about previously with Trumble :
In order to work, science has to admit some basic axioms and laws as true (at least for now). Then theories are to be proved or disproved within these laws. Yes nothing is absolutely true from the outside. But within a conventional scientific frame, you can prove the truth or the untruth of a certain statement or theory.
All this off topic discussion is triggered by the reflection about the evolution theory. What I need is a proof of that theory within the actual state of sciences (natural or physical sciences).
All I got as answers is : theories can't be proved. Well this is not right. Theories can be proved using the existing scientific evidences, no matter how long these evidences will remain as true axioms, but for now we have to work within the existing scientific system.
But If it's not possible to prove the evolution theory right now, why consider it a basis for further scientific developments ?

Hope my idea is clear. Need to sleep now.
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Lynx
06-23-2010, 03:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
All I got as answers is : theories can't be proved. Well this is not right. Theories can be proved using the existing scientific evidences, no matter how long these evidences will remain as true axioms, but for now we have to work within the existing scientific system.
But If it's not possible to prove the evolution theory right now, why consider it a basis for further scientific developments ?

Hope my idea is clear. Need to sleep now.
Well I think this is just because when you said 'proved' they thought you meant proven in the way a logical proof is made. Science can never do that as you know. I guess you had to have asked 'show me the evidence for evolution and why it is so accepted by scientists'. This is more in-tune with how scientists talk about their theories and so-called facts.
Anyway,
The question of why is the theory of evolution the paradigm that is currently accepted by most experts in the field is a matter of simply researching it. Obviously no one on a forum can teach the whole of evolutionary theory so you just have to read on the topic.

This is the site that most people give out. it's a good resource written by several phds in the field.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

this is way beyond the OP so i will leave it at that. it seems everything is cleared up and evolution has been discussed billions of times.
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DuncG
06-23-2010, 09:38 PM
An33za,

As Trumble has pointed out, above, laws can be disproven. Newton's Law of Gravity, for example, was replaced by Einstein's General Theory of Relativity (that introduced new laws of motion under gravitational fields that successfully predicted the bending of light by gravity and correctly calculated Mercury's orbit etc.). Laws are not the apex of science, Theories are. A Law is simply a relationship that affects all objects that undergo the situation in question - they are generic prediction tools. However, they offer no underlying explanation for why that relationship is accurate. A Theory does provide the underlying explanation and any Laws implicit in the Theory should be able to be derived from the Theory. Theories 'outrank' Laws as a result and are what science strives to develop in order to increase our understanding of reality.


marwen,

I don't think we need to accept anything as absolutely true - solipsism can't be disproven which makes it a moot point in any case. All I think is necessary is to take a pragmatic approach and make sure that any conclusion you wish to draw has a rational basis and is supported by the available evidence (with, of course, the caveat that the conclusion may turn out to be wrong if new evidence arises).

Anyway, you've clarified that you don't mean 'prove' in an absolute sense, and Lynx's link to talkorigins.org should provide you with enough evidence to understand why the Theory of Evolution is currently accepted as the best explanation for the diversity of life-forms found in nature.


But are you sure that muslims are not claiming to know the absolute truth? I've seen it written plenty of times, both on this site and elsewhere, that Islam is 'the truth' (with no qualifiers saying this is a tentative conclusion), that it is the ultimate revelation etc. I believe the Qu'ran even refers to itself as perfect, which is synonymous with being absolute, and that any change to its writings is blasphemous due to it then being less-than-perfect. I'd be really interested to find out if Islam didn't adhere to making absolute claims as that would make it different to other religions in not being a dogmatic ideology.
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Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-24-2010, 11:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
An33za,

As Trumble has pointed out, above, laws can be disproven. Newton's Law of Gravity, for example, was replaced by Einstein's General Theory of Relativity (that introduced new laws of motion under gravitational fields that successfully predicted the bending of light by gravity and correctly calculated Mercury's orbit etc.). Laws are not the apex of science, Theories are. A Law is simply a relationship that affects all objects that undergo the situation in question - they are generic prediction tools. However, they offer no underlying explanation for why that relationship is accurate. A Theory does provide the underlying explanation and any Laws implicit in the Theory should be able to be derived from the Theory. Theories 'outrank' Laws as a result and are what science strives to develop in order to increase our understanding of reality.


marwen,

I don't think we need to accept anything as absolutely true - solipsism can't be disproven which makes it a moot point in any case. All I think is necessary is to take a pragmatic approach and make sure that any conclusion you wish to draw has a rational basis and is supported by the available evidence (with, of course, the caveat that the conclusion may turn out to be wrong if new evidence arises).

Anyway, you've clarified that you don't mean 'prove' in an absolute sense, and Lynx's link to talkorigins.org should provide you with enough evidence to understand why the Theory of Evolution is currently accepted as the best explanation for the diversity of life-forms found in nature.


But are you sure that muslims are not claiming to know the absolute truth? I've seen it written plenty of times, both on this site and elsewhere, that Islam is 'the truth' (with no qualifiers saying this is a tentative conclusion), that it is the ultimate revelation etc. I believe the Qu'ran even refers to itself as perfect, which is synonymous with being absolute, and that any change to its writings is blasphemous due to it then being less-than-perfect. I'd be really interested to find out if Islam didn't adhere to making absolute claims as that would make it different to other religions in not being a dogmatic ideology.
Scientific theories are the most useless ridiculous bunch of speculation I have seen in my life and any person who is willing to accept them is dim-witted at best.

If a theory is right you won't call it a theory right? It would be something proved - which by definition means that its a nice word for speculation.

Of course we do not consider these as speculations as the people who babble them are half-gods, wear suits and speak in the awe inspiring tongue of mathematics which makes everything they say immediately undebatable.

All this math is in the case of science is a shield to show how far fetched and useless all these theories are and how much the people how come up with them don't have a clue what they are talking about. A petty attempt to explain the world without giving credit to it's creator Allah blessed be he - such an attempt lasts only because he let's it - in my opinion, not for long before this circus would be forced to come to its senses.

p.s You have a confusion. A theory can be disproved where a law cannot. A law can only be changed or extended because a law by definition not about correct or incorrect it is about following and not following - if something follows the law it is part of it - if you find something that does not follow the law - the law required an extension to understand what to do in this case - these are the way laws are. All laws - by definition.
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Ramadhan
06-24-2010, 11:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
But are you sure that muslims are not claiming to know the absolute truth? I've seen it written plenty of times, both on this site and elsewhere, that Islam is 'the truth' (with no qualifiers saying this is a tentative conclusion), that it is the ultimate revelation etc. I believe the Qu'ran even refers to itself as perfect, which is synonymous with being absolute, and that any change to its writings is blasphemous due to it then being less-than-perfect. I'd be really interested to find out if Islam didn't adhere to making absolute claims as that would make it different to other religions in not being a dogmatic ideology.
I think the mistake lies in people trying to emphasize what they believe in without really understanding what it means.
I am sure no muslim would ever claim they know absolute truth, because as muslims, anything absolute lies with Allah SWT, so only Him posses absolute truth.

However, as muslims, we have 100% belief (note that it is not absolute) that Allah SWT has provided us with Islam and the Qur'an as guidance to live our life.

As for changing the Qur'an and changing interpretations of holy sciptures, well we know what happened to the other religions who had no qualms about changing their scriptures, right?
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DuncG
06-24-2010, 04:03 PM
Gabriel Ibn Yus,

Scientific theories are the most useless ridiculous bunch of speculation I have seen in my life and any person who is willing to accept them is dim-witted at best.
I do not understand why you would say this when you are using a computer and the internet to write it. The technology you are using would not exist without Quantum Theory and the Theory of Thermodynamics. Likewise, you have probably been innoculated against certain diseases or at least live in a population that has undertaken innoculation programmes - innoculations that would not have been produced without the Germ Theory of Disease. You and all of us on this board almost certainly owe our lives to scientific Theories.

If a theory is right you won't call it a theory right?
You are equivocating. The colloquial use of the word 'theory' is not the same as the scientific use of the term 'Theory'. A scientific Theory is a detailed explanation of why we observe certain sets of facts and, in some cases, why some observed Laws are the way they are. The colloquial use of 'theory' to mean speculation or a hunch is not applicable to scientific Theories.

A theory can be disproved where a law cannot. A law can only be changed or extended because a law by definition not about correct or incorrect it is about following and not following ...
If you change or extend a Law due to new facts that have come to light then you are tacitly admitting that the original Law was incorrect. Newton's Law of Gravity depended upon an inverse-square relationship that has been demonstrated to be incorrect under certain conditions. The extension produced the Theory of General Relativity with a new, more accurate Law of Gravity inherent to it. Laws can thus be demonstrated to be wrong and adapted in exactly the same way that scientific Theories can be.


naidamar,,

However, as muslims, we have 100% belief (note that it is not absolute) ...
How is '100% belief' not being absolute in your belief? You haven't left any room for doubt by stating 100% belief, so therefore you are absolutely sure about your belief. Do you admit that there is any possibility, no matter how small, that the Qu'ran did not come from God? If not, then how is your belief anything less than absolute concerning this alleged fact?

As for changing the Qur'an and changing interpretations of holy sciptures, well we know what happened to the other religions who had no qualms about changing their scriptures, right?
The religions diversified, some disappeared and some remained. Mormonism is the one that springs to mind most readily.
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Ramadhan
06-24-2010, 04:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG

naidamar,,
How is '100% belief' not being absolute in your belief? You haven't left any room for doubt by stating 100% belief, so therefore you are absolutely sure about your belief. Do you admit that there is any possibility, no matter how small, that the Qu'ran did not come from God? If not, then how is your belief anything less than absolute concerning this alleged fact?
I was responding to your post which alleged that muslims claim to know the absolute truth.
of course I am absolutely sure about my belief, that is different from claiming to know the absolute truth.
Do you get the difference?
And yes, I am 100% certain that the Qur'an is from God.

The religions diversified, some disappeared and some remained. Mormonism is the one that springs to mind most readily.
And yet, only Islam that maintains the scripture that is unchanged from when it was revealed.
And only Islam whose followers (muslims) pray daily 5 times in exact manners as the prophet (SAAS) was.
etc..etc...
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Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-24-2010, 04:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
I do not understand why you would say this when you are using a computer and the internet to write it. The technology you are using would not exist without Quantum Theory and the Theory of Thermodynamics.
You should check your grasp of science.

This computer has nothing to do with Quantum physics neither does it has any thing to do with Thermodynamics. I do not say that to debunk you just to point your attention to the fact that if you want to be a scientist you have to understand that the fact that a computer works cannot be held as a proof that a scientific theory which has nothing to do with it is true. This is nice on the level of emotional attachment - but it is not rational neither is it a healthy thinking method.

Also you have a confusion between a theory and a model.

Thermodynamics which you refer to is a bunch of formulas which forms a model. I have nothing against that and
if it is useful to build technology - and you are happy with this technology - go ahed - I won't stop you.

However - I am against building silly theories around these models which aside from being silly contribute nothing
to our understanding. From instance Quatnum theory is such a thing and aside from a bunch of babble I have not
gained from it any real insight about anything. Ok, the experiments might work - but to tell you that the conclusions
are not foolish - I cannot.

Also - can please enlighten me and give an example of a piece of technology that was developed due to Quantum physics - aside maybe to the atom bomb (which is debatable because - frankly none of us here really knows how to make one of these things, I hope).

So why do most physicists in the university work on quantum physics or any other far fetched theory today - and hardly anybody or more accurately NOBODY is working on a serious gasoline replacement? Is it not so important - ahha yes - the dudes who are deciding the budgets for the universities are also
the ones who run the oil companies - so I guess they want you to feel smart as long as it does not mean that you would stop buying their crap (in more than one way)

So my advice to you - don't see science as one piece. Take from it what is useful and leave the crap away. How do you know is something is crap or not - usually if they have to market it and show you this on tv - it's crap. Nobody in tv is about educating you.

If you can build from it technology and you feel that it empowers you. I would be the last person on earth to tell you that something like this is bad. However, you must check very good that it indeed does.

format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
Likewise, you have probably been innoculated against certain diseases or at least live in a population that has undertaken innoculation programmes - innoculations that would not have been produced without the Germ Theory of Disease. You and all of us on this board almost certainly owe our lives to scientific Theories.
This is one of the greatest misconceptions in the world. As one thing the medicine people forget to mention to you is that the germs appeared together with science. Which is quite weird when you think about it.

Indeed - if you would look at historical accounts you would find it very hard to find accounts of plagues or diseases in Roman historical accounts. Also many ancient books contain absolutely no account of people dying from disease.
Check it out - can you tell me of a serious historical account about diseases before the black plague in Europe?

So we have been indoctrinated to think that if we would not have medicine we would die teeth-less at the age of twelve from our hands falling out - but this is not the case. One has to ask himself were do all this diseases come from.
But this is simply not the case because most of our grandfathers had quite a good lives and also their grandfathers. Just a silly illusion.

The following question is also complementary and would help your thought process - as you mentioned computers before..

Question: How creates the computer viruses? Were do they come from?

That's a good question. I mean how many bored hackers do you think there are? Millions? Come on .. a computer disease and a human disease are somewhat similar - but one has to think why are they here anyway.

Also if you would look at tribes around the world - you would say that the truth is that not only are they very healthy and live to the age of ninety usually - there is another amazing thing - some people in certain tribes never get sick - not even a flu - ever. Interesting no?

format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
You are equivocating. The colloquial use of the word 'theory' is not the same as the scientific use of the term 'Theory'. A scientific Theory is a detailed explanation of why we observe certain sets of facts and, in some cases, why some observed Laws are the way they are. The colloquial use of 'theory' to mean speculation or a hunch is not applicable to scientific Theories.
I am sorry but you can coat it with sugar as much as you want - the two explanations are the same. It is speculation either way and the speculations are wrong. You see - people do not care about the explanations at all. They care about wether the guy wears suit or not and if he can scribble all sorts of formulas that they don't understand.

For you the definition is the following:

Guy wearing a suit and scriblling formulas - Scientific theory - completely true.

Guy with no suit speaking english - Bunch of speculation - hardly deserves attention.

That's human nature. And its foolish - just like 99% of what these suits speculate - bunch of foolishness which has nothing to do with the way things work.

If you want you can start with Newton - read his theory slowly slowly and you would see that it is FULL of holes (again when it comes to the THEORY part i.e the explanations he gives - not to his models which are correct - yet beyond the math - trivial). Do it - it's a good exercise. And no - you do not have to apply to this other monkey Einstein - do it simple - just read and think. If you need hints - I'm here.

format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
If you change or extend a Law due to new facts that have come to light then you are tacitly admitting that the original Law was incorrect.
No - I admit it was incomplete. English please. What do you mean by correct law anyway. The law is the law and that's the end of it. The law expresses your reality and until there is no new input to your reality you do not need to change it.

You think that if people would have no about the extended cases they would have given you a damaged law. That means that in your case the new case was not known - but then you can ask - did it exist?...for the people who developed the first set of laws - it did not - so for them the law was accurate - for you not - and thus you extended it. You see the problem is that you do not understand that you are HUMAN and by that cannot know all of reality. Thus you would ALWAYS need to extend your law - that is assuming that you want to write the laws by yourself and are not willing to accept the guidance given to you by the creator whose laws are, of course, perfect.

format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
Newton's Law of Gravity depended upon an inverse-square relationship that has been demonstrated to be incorrect under certain conditions. The extension produced the Theory of General Relativity with a new, more accurate Law of Gravity inherent to it. Laws can thus be demonstrated to be wrong and adapted in exactly the same way that scientific Theories can be.
The law of not speaking to strangers depended upon my being five years old but has been demonstrated incomplete when I took my first drive in a bus and had to buy a ticket from the bus driver. What are you trying to say by that? I am not sure that I follow. Laws are laws - they are not about correct or incorrect - they are about followed or not followed. Period. When you find that your laws are not followed - you have to think why - and then extend the law.

However, again, there is a difference between human law and divine law. Human law is not followed because of ill-phrasing of the law. Newton, if I understand correctly, in your example give an ill-phrased law - because he was not aware of other cases. Lol, funny.

Yet, divine law is always followed. When we see something that seems to us not to follow the divine law it is simply because there is something we do not understand in the law itself. However, the law is perfect and phrased perfectly in each letter and letter.
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titus
06-24-2010, 06:28 PM
Also - can please enlighten me and give an example of a piece of technology that was developed due to Quantum physics - aside maybe to the atom bomb (which is debatable because - frankly none of us here really knows how to make one of these things, I hope).
Nuclear energy. Flash drives. The laser.

By the way, this whole topic is silly. Nobody can prove the existence of God any more than someone else can disprove it. One can only explain why they believe the way that they do.
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Masuma
06-24-2010, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
An33za,

As Trumble has pointed out, above, laws can be disproven. Newton's Law of Gravity, for example, was replaced by Einstein's General Theory of Relativity (that introduced new laws of motion under gravitational fields that successfully predicted the bending of light by gravity and correctly calculated Mercury's orbit etc.). Laws are not the apex of science, Theories are. A Law is simply a relationship that affects all objects that undergo the situation in question - they are generic prediction tools. However, they offer no underlying explanation for why that relationship is accurate. A Theory does provide the underlying explanation and any Laws implicit in the Theory should be able to be derived from the Theory. Theories 'outrank' Laws as a result and are what science strives to develop in order to increase our understanding of reality.
Oh come on! I didn't even know this post was addressed to me! Not fair! :blind:

Now what I was trying to say is that there are some things in the world which can definitely be proven. Theories should never be relied upon as theories many times can takes U-turn.

But the Laws f science are now established theories.

Lets have another example. Previously, people believed that Earth was flat. But with the advancement of technology, we finally discovered through the satellites that it was spherical in shape (or whatever because yesterday my phy teacher said that it is not exactly spherical). So the point is that now we 100%, without any doubt, know the shape of Earth. This can't be dis proven. (Or would you still insist that some day people would discover it to be triangular in shape and thus it can also be disproved :uuh:??? LOL! ;D)

Btw, I'm tired of this discussion. You people are going so off-topic. I'm bored! :p:
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Masuma
06-24-2010, 06:36 PM
Hmmmm...okay so I'm in! :D

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Nuclear energy. Flash drives. The laser.

By the way, this whole topic is silly. Nobody can prove the existence of God any more than someone else can disprove it. One can only explain why they believe the way that they do.
AAAAHAHAHA! your talking insane! Nobody can prove that you exist or that we all exist, any more than someone else can disprove it!!! LOL! But for someone to "disprove" our existence, he has to exist! (the mother of all LOLs! :D )

Please titus!

Ps, go team Muslim! Go team Muslim! :D
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titus
06-24-2010, 06:47 PM
"I think therefore I am" eh? Descartes would be proud.

Ps, go team Muslim! Go team Muslim!
I am saying both sides are wasting their breath trying to prove or disprove the existence of God.

So... go team sideline? :)
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tango92
06-24-2010, 08:08 PM
^ no. as muslims we can prove Allah swt exists no shadow of a doubt. however it requires a person to open their eyes to it.
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Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-24-2010, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Nuclear energy. Flash drives. The laser.
Nonsense. I give up. You people just don't want to learn...

You give me answers for the useless things that you find in wikipedia and never ask yourself who write wikipedia.

Who makes computer viruses - why don't you answer that? It's not in wikipedia? You didn't study this in
the university.

Answer me the tough questions wise guy - otherwise don't answer me at all...because you give yourself a wrong
impression that you know something when you do not.
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titus
06-24-2010, 10:09 PM
Who makes computer viruses - why don't you answer that? It's not in wikipedia? You didn't study this in
the university.
Which computer virus? You have some companies that make them (especially the annoying spyware). You also have the people that make them at home because they are losers and causing misery makes them feel better. There is not a single entity making all computer viruses so there is not a single answer to your question.

Well, unless you believe in silly conspiracy theories.

Not that this has anything to do with this thread, really.

Nonsense. I give up. You people just don't want to learn...
Teach what? That lasers weren't theorized before they were invented? That theoretic science is not useful? If it weren't for theoretic science you would not have had actual applications such as space exploration, many advances in medicine, and much computer technology. These advances were not made by accident, they were theories that were later engineered into reality.

as muslims we can prove Allah swt exists no shadow of a doubt. however it requires a person to open their eyes to it.
No, you can explain why you believe in Allah. You yourself can have no doubts. That is different than proving it.
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marwen
06-24-2010, 10:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
"I think therefore I am" eh? Descartes would be proud.
Now prove me that you exist. You just proved it to yourself, but I'm not you, I'm not sure you're thinking, so I'm not sure you exist.
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titus
06-24-2010, 10:19 PM
Now prove me that you exist. You just proved it to yourself, but I'm not you, I'm not sure you're thinking, so I'm not sure you exist.
Exactly. Now prove to me that God exists? Or prove that he doesn't exist?

Yeah, not gonna happen.
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marwen
06-24-2010, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Exactly. Now prove to me that God exists? Or prove that he doesn't exist?

Yeah, not gonna happen.
The point is (inspired by the OP), some things can exist even if there is no clear scientific evidence supporting their existence. Asking for logical/empirical/scientific evidence for every thing as a condition to accept it is just stupid : you will deny the most intuitive truths you live with, like your existence or the food you're eating.
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titus
06-24-2010, 10:29 PM
I agree completely. Yet how much longer do you think it will be until another thread pops here with someone "proving" that God exists, or "proving" that God doesn't exist?
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marwen
06-24-2010, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I agree completely. Yet how much longer do you think it will be until another thread pops here with someone "proving" that God exists, or "proving" that God doesn't exist?
Not very long, because people are still thinking the same way : materially proving. We need to see and touch things to believe in them, we can't understand/accept signs and traces as evidences. The ridicule thing is that we're not so rigorous and scientific in our daily life. But when it comes to God and supernatural things we just want to be so logical .
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tango92
06-24-2010, 11:01 PM
^yh people get caught up in these things because of shaitan.

look the best way to think about it. absolutely logically, no belief required here, is that the universe is so complex it must have come from somewhere. we know the universe had a beginning that just adds more evidence to the pile. next step is identifying atributes of the source. and etc. eventually you will come to islam. which is the ONLY religion with proof to it.

so many atheists foolishly say "oh theres no proof either way so we take the default position and say theres no god". your wrong the evidence is overwhelming for Gods existence! but your looking for one part/attribute of Allah you dont understand to deny his existence altogether. subhanAllah.
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Masuma
06-25-2010, 12:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
"I think therefore I am" eh?
taken from a joke,...come on, you can be better than that! :D (though the joke was awesome!)

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Descartes would be proud.
What? What does this mean???


format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I am saying both sides are wasting their breath trying to prove or disprove the existence of God.
If the other person is one with a seal on his heart (nothing, no evidence would make a difference) THAN it is a waste of time! But what if the other person would understand and realize the truth in the end by God's mercy? So there is always a chance, a beautiful hope! :)

I know nothing about your case. Time will show. But so far you've proven to be no different. So indeed a waste of time.

And just to clear up the confusion, it is a Muslim's duty to call people to God's way, to hope and pray for their guidance. It is our duty to do Dawah (calling people to God's way). But realize that our duty is only limited to CALLING people only, not to make them ACCEPT or UNDERSTAND the reality. This is because this power is ONLY in the hands of God; He guides whom He wills!

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
So... go team sideline? :)
:D your not in that team! You have started now a whole new discussion!
Reply

Masuma
06-25-2010, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
Now prove me that you exist. You just proved it to yourself, but I'm not you, I'm not sure you're thinking, so I'm not sure you exist.
Exactly. Now prove to me that God exists? Or prove that he doesn't exist?
AAAHAHAHA! :D Asking a new question in reply to a question is not actually ANSWERING it!
Prove us your existence! ;D

But seriously, you want a new discussion? Now YOU want us to prove God's existence?


format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I agree completely. Yet how much longer do you think it will be until another thread pops here with someone "proving" that God exists, or "proving" that God doesn't exist?
Yeah as pointed out, not so long. Believers are only a few in a world of trillions! But this is how it works, this is how life works. If someone gets a blessing from God, he would obviously want to share it with others (if he is really grateful and nice). Same way, we Muslims hope for all the world to one day accept truth. And for this, we struggle and we strive! We do Dawah (calling people to Allah's way) with non-Muslims.



[GO team Muslim, go team Muslim] LOL!!!
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-25-2010, 01:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tango92
^ no. as muslims we can prove Allah swt exists no shadow of a doubt. however it requires a person to open their eyes to it.
That line of thought takes us right back to the Flying Spaghetti monster. I thought we were beyond that now.
Reply

Ramadhan
06-25-2010, 03:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That line of thought takes us right back to the Flying Spaghetti monster. I thought we were beyond that now.

What has the flying spaghetti monster claimed to be/to do?

We prove that Allah SWT exists by the claims that He has made.
Reply

tango92
06-25-2010, 04:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That line of thought takes us right back to the Flying Spaghetti monster. I thought we were beyond that now.
you need to get over your ego, then maybe we can move past this point. honestly its not that hard
Reply

Muslimeen
06-25-2010, 06:07 AM
It's so obvious. Take for example what the quran says about human embryonic develepment. The quran was revealed approximately 1400 yrs ago, how is it possible the Muhammad Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam new this 1400 yrs ago which scientist have only recently discovered. I will post it after I reach 50 post, it's got pictures and makes it so much easier to understand.
Reply

Trumble
06-25-2010, 07:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimeen
It's so obvious. Take for example what the quran says about human embryonic develepment. The quran was revealed approximately 1400 yrs ago, how is it possible the Muhammad Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam new this 1400 yrs ago which scientist have only recently discovered. I will post it after I reach 50 post, it's got pictures and makes it so much easier to understand.
Because it was copied from the Greeks who got there rather earlier, that's how it's possible. But we've been here before..... you will find plenty of desperate denials of that obvious fact (that you will no doubt find perfectly satisfactory) elsewhere.

You believe what you want to believe, 'proof' has next to nothing to do with it.
Reply

tango92
06-25-2010, 07:26 AM
^ wow i wonder which anti islam site you got that from. ever tried researching it yourself?
so much more unique detail is given in the quran compared to what the greeks came up with, and no mistakes were copied. desperate denials, what a joke. its more like a desperate attempt to prove the counter argument

do you know your sources also claim the greeks knew the big bang theory? just to explain the quranic verse:

Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them as asunder, and We made from water every living thing. will they not then believe?" (The Qur'an, 21:30)

look at how plain Allah makes his signs.
or is that verse referring to something other than the big bang. what a joke...
Reply

Muslimeen
06-25-2010, 07:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Because it was copied from the Greeks who got there rather earlier, that's how it's possible. But we've been here before..... you will find plenty of desperate denials of that obvious fact (that you will no doubt find perfectly satisfactory) elsewhere.

You believe what you want to believe, 'proof' has next to nothing to do with it.
Prove it, Muhammad Sallalahu Allaihi Wassallam never went to greece, and by the way the it's not just the human embryonic development I am talking about. There are many others I will soon post.
Reply

Muslimeen
06-25-2010, 07:45 AM
So what exactly have the greeks found out, please share, so we can make comparisons.
Reply

Ramadhan
06-25-2010, 08:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Because it was copied from the Greeks who got there rather earlier, that's how it's possible. But we've been here before..... you will find plenty of desperate denials of that obvious fact (that you will no doubt find perfectly satisfactory) elsewhere.

You believe what you want to believe, 'proof' has next to nothing to do with it.
Please share with and enlighten us (with evidence) how prophet Muhammad SAW copied from the Greek.
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt (ie. I am not accusing you of just parroting all those orientalists/enemies of Islam who spread so much lies without clearly understanding the matter), and I presume you are very familiar with the sirah of prophet Muhammad SAW.
Reply

Muslimeen
06-25-2010, 08:12 AM
A) The Quran on Human Embryonic Development:

In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man’s embryonic development:

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)...

1 (Quran, 23:12-14)
Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: (1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot.
In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two2 as we can see in figure 1. Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech, which feeds on the blood of others.3

Figure 1: Drawings illustrating the similarities in appearance between a leech and a human embryo at the alaqah stage. (Leech drawing from Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, p. 37, modified from Integrated Principles of Zoology, Hickman and others. Embryo drawing from The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 73.)
The second meaning of the word alaqah is “suspended thing.” This is what we can see in figures 2 and 3, the suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.
Figure 2: We can see in this diagram the suspension of an embryo during the alaqah stage in the womb (uterus) of the mother. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 66.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

Figure 3: In this photomicrograph, we can see the suspension of an embryo (marked B) during the alaqah stage (about 15 days old) in the womb of the mother. The actual size of the embryo is about 0.6 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore, 3rd ed., p. 66, from Histology, Leeson and Leeson.)

The third meaning of the word alaqah is “blood clot.” We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage4 (see figure 4). Also during this stage, the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week.5 Thus, the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.
Figure 4: Diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage. The external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot, due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo. (The Developing Human, Moore, 5th ed., p. 65.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.
The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means “chewed substance.” If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his or her mouth and then compare it with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance. This is because of the somites at the back of the embryo that “somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance.”6 (see figures 5 and 6).
Figure 5: Photograph of an embryo at the mudghah stage (28 days old). The embryo at this stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance, because the somites at the back of the embryo somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance. The actual size of the embryo is 4 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 82, from Professor Hideo Nishimura, Kyoto University, Kyoto, Japan.)


Figure 6: When comparing the appearance of an embryo at the mudghah stage with a piece of gum that has been chewed, we find similarity between the two.
A) Drawing of an embryo at the mudghah stage. We can see here the somites at the back of the embryo that look like teeth marks. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 79.)
B) Photograph of a piece of gum that has been chewed.
(Click on the image to enlarge it.)


How could Muhammad

have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells (spermatozoa) using an improved microscope in 1677 (more than 1000 years after Muhammad

). They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature preformed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract.7
Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore8 is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.
In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God.”9 (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here

).
Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question: “Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?” He replied: “I find no difficulty in accepting this.”10
During one conference, Professor Moore stated: “....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad

said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad’s

companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training.”
Reply

Muslimeen
06-25-2010, 08:28 AM
Keith L. Moore


Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist and the author of several medical textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).

Investigations in to the 'alaqa or leech-like stage.



Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honoured by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."

"For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I knew nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah."[2]

At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]

Professor Moore also stated that:

"...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.

"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."


E. Marshall Johnson


Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Developmental Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.

Author of over 200 publications. Former President of the Teratology Society among other accomplishments. Professor Johnson began to take an interest in the scientific signs in the Qur'an at the 7th Saudi Medical Conference (1982), when a special committee was formed to investigate scientific signs in the Qur'an and Hadith. At first, Professor Johnson refused to accept the existence of such verses in the Qur'an and Hadith. But after a dicussuion with Sheikh Zindani he took an interest and concentrated his research on the internal as well as external development of the fetus.

"...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the development of external form, but emphasises also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasising major events recognised by contemporary science."

"As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Qur'an. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described...

I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write..."



T.V.N. Persaud


Professor of Anatomy, and Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.


Author and editor of over 20 books, and has published over 181 scientific papers. Co-author of The Developing Human (5th Edition, with Keith L. Moore). He received the J.C.B. Grant Award in 1991. Professor Peraud presented several research papers.

"It seems to me that Muhammad was a very ordinary man, he couldn't read, didn't know how to write, in fact he was an illiterate...

We're talking about 1400 years ago, you have some illiterate person making profound statements that are amazingly accurate, of a scientific nature...

I personally can't see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which lead him to these statements."


Joe Leigh Simpson

Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.
He is the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynaecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Like many others, Professor Simpson was taken by surprise when he discovered that the Qur'an and Hadith contain verses related to his specialised field of study. When he met with Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A.Zindani, he insisted on verifying the text presented to him from the Qur'an and Hadith.

"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."


Gerald C. Goeringer

Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA.
Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A.Zindani met with Professor Goeringer and asked him whether in the history of embryology was there any mention of the different stages of embryonic development, or whether there existed any embryological texts at the time of the Prophet. Sheikh Zindani also asked his opinion regarding the terms the Qur'an uses to describe the different phases of fetal development. After several long discussions, he presented a study at the 8th Saudi Medical Conference:

"...In a relatively few ayahs (Qur'anic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development such as classification, terminology, and description existed previously. In most, if not all instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature."


Alfred Kroner

Professor of the Department of Geosciences, University of Mainz, Germany.
Professor Kroner is one of the world's most famous geologists, becoming well known among his colleague scientists for his criticisms against the theories of some of the major scientists in his field. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zindani met with him and presented several Qur'anic verses and Hadith which he studied and commented upon.

"Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...

If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'an in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'an is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago."


Yushidi Kusan

Director of the Tokyo Observatory, Tokyo, Japan.
Sheikh Abdul-Majeed A. Zindani presented a number of Qur'anic verses describing the beginnings of the universe and of the heavens, and the relationship of the earth to the heavens. He expressed his astonishment, saying that the Qur'an describes the universe as seen from the highest observation point, everything is distinct and clear.

"I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'an, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe. We have concentrated our efforts for understanding of very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts of the sky without thinking about the whole universe. So by reading Qur'an and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe."


Professor Armstrong

Professor Armstrong works for NASA and is also Professor of Astronomy, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas, USA.

Prof. Armstrong was asked a number of questions about Qur'anic verses dealing with his field of specialisation. He was eventually asked, "You have seen and discovered for yourself the true nature of modern Astronomy by means of modern equipment, rockets, and satellites developed by man. You have also seen how the same facts were mentioned by the Qur'an fourteen centuries ago. So what is your opinion?""That is a difficult question which I have been thinking about since our discussion here. I am impressed at how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. I am not a sufficient scholar of human history to project myself completely and reliably into the circumstances that 1400 years ago would have prevailed.
Certainly, I would like to leave it at that, that what we have seen is remarkable, it may or may not admit of scientific explanation, there may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen."


William Hay

Professor of Oceanogprahy, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA.
Professor Hay is one of the best known marine scientist in the USA. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zindani met with him and asked him many questions about the marine surface, the divider between upper and lower sea, and about the ocean floor and marine geology.

"I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Qur'an, and I have no way of knowing where they would have come from. But I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages."

And when he was asked about the source of the Qur'an, he replied, "Well, I would think it must be the divine being."


Durja Rao

Professor of Marine Geology teaching at King Abdulaziz University, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
Sheikh Zindani presented to Prof. Rao many verses dealing with his area of specialisation, and asked: "What do you think of the existence of the scientific information in the Qur'an? How could Prophet Muhammad have known about these facts fourteen centuries ago?"

"It is difficult to imagine that this type of knowledge was existing at that time, around 1400 years back. May be some of the things they have simple idea about, but to describe those things in great detail is very difficult. So this is definitely not simple human knowledge. A normal human being cannot explain this phenomenon in that much detail. So, I thought the information must have come from a supernatural source."


Professor Siaveda

Professor of Marine Geology, Japan.
Sheikh Zindani asked him a number of questions in his area of specialisation, and then informed him of the Qur'anic verses and Hadith which mention the same phenomena he spoke of. One of the questions was concerning mountains. Sheikh Zindani asked him about the shape of mountains; and whether they were firmly rooted in the earth. "What is your opinion of what you have seen in the Qur'an and the Sunnah with regard to the secrets of the Universe, which scientists only discovered now?"

"I think it seems to me very, very mysterious, almost unbelievable. I really think if what you have said is true, the book is really a very remarkable book, I agree."


Tejatat Tejasen

Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand.
Professor Tejasen studied various articles concerning the Qur'an and modern embryology. He spent four days with several scholars, Muslims and non-Muslims, discussing this phenomenon in the Qur'an and Hadith. During the 8th Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia he stood up and said:

"In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'an... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'an fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.

Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible creator. This creator must be God, or Allah.

I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammad rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger of Allah...

The most precious thing I have gained from coming to this conference is La ilaha illa Allah, and to have become Muslim."


Dr. Maurice Bucaille

Born in 1920, former chief of the Surgical Clinic, University of Paris, has for a long time deeply interested in the correspondences between the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and modern secular knowledge.

He is the author of a best-seller, "The Bible, The Qur'an and Science" (1976). His classical studies of the scriptural languages, including Arabic, in association with his knowledge of hieroglyphics, have allowed him to hold a multidisciplinary inquiry, in which his personal contribution as a medical doctor has produced conclusive arguments. His work, "Mummies of the Pharaohs - Modern Medical Investigations" (St. Martins Press, 1990), won a History Prize from the Académie Française and another prize from the French National Academy of Medicine.

His other works include: "What is the Origin of Man" (Seghers, 1988), "Moses and Pharaoh, the Hebrews in Egypt", (NTT Mediascope Inc, 1994); and "Réflexions sur le Coran" (Mohamed Talbi & Maurice Bucaille, Seghers, 1989)

After a study which lasted ten years, Dr. Maurice Bucaille addressed the French Academy of Medicine in 1976 concerning the existence in the Qur'an of certain statements concerning physiology and reproduction. His reason for doing that was that :

"...our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Qur'an could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times."

"The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?

How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human-being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?"
Reply

Muslimeen
06-25-2010, 08:35 AM
I think this is more than enough proof. The rest is upto to you, believe it or not.
Reply

BlackMamba
06-25-2010, 08:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Because it was copied from the Greeks who got there rather earlier, that's how it's possible. But we've been here before..... you will find plenty of desperate denials of that obvious fact (that you will no doubt find perfectly satisfactory) elsewhere.
Oh come on now, are you seriously using that comeback? That logic is so flawed for the simple fact that the Greeks got a lot of stuff horribly wrong also. Like they thought the atom was the smallest unit of matter. However Allah says in the Quran " And you are not (engaged) in any affair, nor do you recite concerning it any portion of the Quran, nor do you do any work but We are witnesses over you when you enter into it, and there does not lie concealed from your Lord the weight of an atom in the earth or in the heaven, nor any thing less than that nor greater, but it is in a clear book." (10:61) So it is apparent from this ayah that the Quran went against what the Greeks thought. So if you think Muhammad (saw) was the author of this book or that he was majnoon, how did he know to take only the correct facts from the Greeks? Did he just randomly pick facts and get amazingly lucky? That seems unreasonable to me. This is just one example, and their are several examples of where the Quran says correct things about a certain area in science whereas the Greeks said incorrect things
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-25-2010, 09:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Which computer virus? You have some companies that make them (especially the annoying spyware). You also have the people that make them at home because they are losers and causing misery makes them feel better. There is not a single entity making all computer viruses so there is not a single answer to your question....

...Not that this has anything to do with this thread, really.
Ohoo, I think you do not understand just how much it has to do with this thread.

You think that this thread is just about some theoretical question - because you are
a theoretical minded person which cares only about very flat questions.

However let me translate for you what has happened here. Humanity has recieved
the oppurtionity to develop a simple system, supposedly just by themselves. A closed
system that would be completely under you care i.e computers.

No evolution. No pre-historic insects. No excuses. Nobody to blame. Yet - what do you
know - it still has viruses. Don't you learn from it a lesson in medicine science?

Look - computers depend 100% on people - no outer influence - yet it still has disease.
And you still want me to learn with you something? First manage to be able to come up
with a system that dosen't imitiate your sickness and then will talk.

You can't even heal what you by yourself create - you want me to trust you to heal what
you haven't? Rediculous.

It teaches you where human disease comes from - not from germs - not from prehistoric
life forms that where here before or us - or whatever. These are just symptoms of the disease
not the cause - that's what people do not get.

The cause - just like the answer you gave - just like in the case of computers - is HUMAN WICKEDNESS.

Interestingly enough - religion is all about how to deal with this. In some ways you can see religion as the
science of the relationship between human reightousness and wickedness. Yet you do not accept, not just
the existence of Allah bless be him, but also the existence of these two concepts. Your laws are empty shells.
Yet just the fact that you do not accept something does not mean that it does not exist. And it does not
mean that it does not hurt you.

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Well, unless you believe in silly conspiracy theories.
In case you do not understand - I believe in Allah which means that I believe that he governs EVERYTHING in
the world. So in from my point of view - you secular people are the conspiracy actually.

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Teach what? That lasers weren't theorized before they were invented?
Well, you answer yourself. Taking into account human nature and the fact that human beings are not SUPERMAN neither you
nor me nor anybody else and the way you think is the way anybody else thinks - I would take it as a safe bet. Unless you want
to be a slave and believe in superhuman scientists if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.
Reply

DuncG
06-25-2010, 01:05 PM
naidamar,

of course I am absolutely sure about my belief, that is different from claiming to know the absolute truth.
Do you get the difference?
No, I do not get the difference. If you're absolutely sure in a belief, then you believe it to be absolutely true. You are therefore claiming to know some absolute truth. Perhaps you're using belief in a slightly different context to how I use it. Please can you explain how you perceive the difference between absolute (100%) belief and absolute truth - it appears to me that the first implies knowledge of the second.

And yet, only Islam that maintains the scripture that is unchanged from when it was revealed.
And only Islam whose followers (muslims) pray daily 5 times in exact manners as the prophet (SAAS) was.
Do you count these as evidence for God? If so, could you expand on the reasoning, perhaps putting them into a syllogistic, deductive
Reply

DuncG
06-25-2010, 01:05 PM
Gabriel Ibn Yus,

Regarding computers and an example of a piece of technology from Quantum Theory: the semiconductor transistor. This is the basis of all microchips including the RAM memory and processor inside the computer you're using. The fabrication techniques of differential layering of semiconductor devices was directly developed from an appreciation of the energy-level structure of the electrons in atoms, based on a model of the atom derived from Quantum Theory. Quantum Theory was absolutely vital in the conception and development of computers, let alone the entirety of modern electronics.

Also you have a confusion between a theory and a model.
And what would that difference be then? As far as scientific Theories and the models associated with them go, they are effectively synonymous. A Theory is an explanation - a model is used as a conceptual tool to aid in that explanation.

From instance Quatnum theory is such a thing and aside from a bunch of babble I have not
gained from it any real insight about anything. Ok, the experiments might work...
The fact that you, personally, have not gained 'any real insight' is obviously inconsequential if the experiments work. As working experiments have been produced from Quantum Theory then at least someone has gained some real insight. Your own lack of understanding of the subject and its technological products does not mean it isn't accurate or useful.

So why do most physicists in the university work on quantum physics or any other far fetched theory today - and hardly anybody or more accurately NOBODY is working on a serious gasoline replacement?
I don't really see the relevance of this question. Regardless, have you completely missed the many groups working on hydrogen-storage as a means of replacing gasoline?

This is one of the greatest misconceptions in the world. As one thing the medicine people forget to mention to you is that the germs appeared together with science. Which is quite weird when you think about it.

Indeed - if you would look at historical accounts you would find it very hard to find accounts of plagues or diseases in Roman historical accounts. Also many ancient books contain absolutely no account of people dying from disease.
Check it out - can you tell me of a serious historical account about diseases before the black plague in Europe?
"History" by Thucydides describes a plague in Periklean Athens during the Peloponnesian War.
"Oedipos Tyrannos" by Sophocles.
"De Rerum Natura" by Lucretius.
"On Regimen in Acute Diseases" by Hippocrates.
"De Materia Medica" by Pedanius Dioscorides.
"Gynaecology" by Soranus.

If you honestly think it's not easy to find references to Romans being aware of diseases then you obviously don't know the reasons why they were so keen on having efficient sewage systems and bath houses.

Plus, of course, there's a rather great tradition of medicine in ancient Egyptian and Chinese societies. Your bizarre idea that 'germs appeared together with science' is utterly wrong.

How creates the computer viruses? Were do they come from?
Again, I don't see the relevance to the subject. Humans create computer viruses. Only humans write software.

I see from your response to Titus that you are, once again, equivocating between physical disease and computer viruses. They are not the same, although they may have some similar properties. Computers do not have 'disease' - the term 'virus' in the context of information technology is rather different from the term 'virus' used in medicine. You do understand that the same word, used in different contexts, can have different meanings, right?

I am sorry but you can coat it with sugar as much as you want - the two explanations are the same. It is speculation either way and the speculations are wrong.
No, the explanation I have given for a scientific Theory is not the same as the colloquial use for speculation. The scientific term that is much closer to speculation is 'hypothesis'. As I have demonstrated above, the results of Quantum Theory are not wrong as evidenced by that computer you're using.

No - I admit it was incomplete. English please. What do you mean by correct law anyway. The law is the law and that's the end of it. The law expresses your reality and until there is no new input to your reality you do not need to change it.
Precisely, if there is new input from new observations about the Universe then the scientific Laws require changing. The fact that they are changed demonstrates that they are not absolute. Once they are in a form that agrees with all the present observations then the Law is kept until further new observations arise that require a further revision.

You think that if people would have no about the extended cases they would have given you a damaged law. That means that in your case the new case was not known - but then you can ask - did it exist?...for the people who developed the first set of laws - it did not - so for them the law was accurate - for you not - and thus you extended it. You see the problem is that you do not understand that you are HUMAN and by that cannot know all of reality.
This was exactly the point that I raised previously in this thread. Did you not understand my earlier posts?

Thus you would ALWAYS need to extend your law - that is assuming that you want to write the laws by yourself and are not willing to accept the guidance given to you by the creator whose laws are, of course, perfect.
You have done nothing to demonstrate that the laws you claim are from a creator came from a creator or are perfect (and therefore absolute). The whole point of this thread is for you to provide some evidence for these kind of bald assertions. Remember, as you so clearly pointed out, you are human and so cannot know all of reality. How then can you verify the perfection of a law that some other human has told you about?

The law of not speaking to strangers depended upon my being five years old but has been demonstrated incomplete when I took my first drive in a bus and had to buy a ticket from the bus driver. What are you trying to say by that? I am not sure that I follow. Laws are laws - they are not about correct or incorrect - they are about followed or not followed. Period. When you find that your laws are not followed - you have to think why - and then extend the law.

However, again, there is a difference between human law and divine law. Human law is not followed because of ill-phrasing of the law. Newton, if I understand correctly, in your example give an ill-phrased law - because he was not aware of other cases. Lol, funny.

Yet, divine law is always followed. When we see something that seems to us not to follow the divine law it is simply because there is something we do not understand in the law itself. However, the law is perfect and phrased perfectly in each letter and letter.
Hmm, this is all equivocation again. You appear to be using the term 'law' in three different ways: 1. Scientific Law, 2. Judicial law, 3. Absolute truth. I have only been discussing scientific Laws so far, which are attempts to get closer to the absolute truth of how reality operates. Your description of 'divine law' appears to be synonymous with nature, which is what science is attempting to understand. If you continuously equivocate between all these different definitions then it's going to be very difficult to have a constructive discussion.
Reply

DuncG
06-25-2010, 01:06 PM
An33za,

Ok, I've split my posts - hope it's easier to spot this time!

But the Laws f science are now established theories.
No, a scientific Law and a scientific Theory are two different things. A Law just describes how to predict how something will happen in a certain situation. A Theory gives you an explanation as to why the Law operates in the way it does. Theories are thus of much greater importance in science.

Previously, people believed that Earth was flat. But with the advancement of technology, we finally discovered through the satellites that it was spherical in shape (or whatever because yesterday my phy teacher said that it is not exactly spherical). So the point is that now we 100%, without any doubt, know the shape of Earth. This can't be dis proven.
But all you're doing here is making an observation about a single object. These are just empirical facts. A Theory is a generic, universal explanation for objects or situations of a specific type. For example, the Theory of Evolution may have been generated as an explanation as to why we observe such diversity of species, but it would be universally applicable to any replicator that has the capacity to vary from generation to generation. Theories are built upon the empirical facts that we collect in our observations and investigations of the Universe, but because of this there is always the possibility that we might discover a new fact that contradicts the current Theory we have generated for that situation. Facts, such as the observed shape of the Earth can be taken on a practical level as being absolutely true (or at least true beyond reasonable doubt), but Theories should always be considered tentative to avoid falling into the trap of thinking that we've discovered every fact that is relevant to them.

By the way, you should tell your physics teacher that the shape of the Earth is an oblate spheroid due to its rotation flattening it at the poles while expanding it at the equator. S/he should be well impressed!

Btw, I'm tired of this discussion. You people are going so off-topic.
I don't think it's that off-topic. The whole point of this discussion is to make clear what we mean when we ask someone to 'prove' something and whether the things we know are absolutely true or not. That's a fairly important first step to take before addressing actual proofs/evidence for the existence of the supernatural.
Reply

titus
06-25-2010, 01:32 PM
I think therefore I am" eh?
taken from a joke,...come on, you can be better than that! (though the joke was awesome!)

Descartes would be proud
What? What does this mean???
"I think therefore I am" is not from a joke. It is from French philosopher Rene Descartes.
And just to clear up the confusion, it is a Muslim's duty to call people to God's way, to hope and pray for their guidance. It is our duty to do Dawah (calling people to God's way).
I understand that. I just wouldn't recommend telling the people that you can "prove" you are right. Semantics.
Reply

Gabriel Ibn Yus
06-25-2010, 02:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
Gabriel Ibn Yus,

Regarding computers and an example of a piece of technology from Quantum Theory: the semiconductor transistor. This is the basis of all microchips including the RAM memory and processor inside the computer you're using. The fabrication techniques of differential layering of semiconductor devices was directly developed from an appreciation of the energy-level structure of the electrons in atoms, based on a model of the atom derived from Quantum Theory. Quantum Theory was absolutely vital in the conception and development of computers, let alone the entirety of modern electronics.



And what would that difference be then? As far as scientific Theories and the models associated with them go, they are effectively synonymous. A Theory is an explanation - a model is used as a conceptual tool to aid in that explanation.



The fact that you, personally, have not gained 'any real insight' is obviously inconsequential if the experiments work. As working experiments have been produced from Quantum Theory then at least someone has gained some real insight. Your own lack of understanding of the subject and its technological products does not mean it isn't accurate or useful.



I don't really see the relevance of this question. Regardless, have you completely missed the many groups working on hydrogen-storage as a means of replacing gasoline?



"History" by Thucydides describes a plague in Periklean Athens during the Peloponnesian War.
"Oedipos Tyrannos" by Sophocles.
"De Rerum Natura" by Lucretius.
"On Regimen in Acute Diseases" by Hippocrates.
"De Materia Medica" by Pedanius Dioscorides.
"Gynaecology" by Soranus.

If you honestly think it's not easy to find references to Romans being aware of diseases then you obviously don't know the reasons why they were so keen on having efficient sewage systems and bath houses.

Plus, of course, there's a rather great tradition of medicine in ancient Egyptian and Chinese societies. Your bizarre idea that 'germs appeared together with science' is utterly wrong.



Again, I don't see the relevance to the subject. Humans create computer viruses. Only humans write software.

I see from your response to Titus that you are, once again, equivocating between physical disease and computer viruses. They are not the same, although they may have some similar properties. Computers do not have 'disease' - the term 'virus' in the context of information technology is rather different from the term 'virus' used in medicine. You do understand that the same word, used in different contexts, can have different meanings, right?



No, the explanation I have given for a scientific Theory is not the same as the colloquial use for speculation. The scientific term that is much closer to speculation is 'hypothesis'. As I have demonstrated above, the results of Quantum Theory are not wrong as evidenced by that computer you're using.



Precisely, if there is new input from new observations about the Universe then the scientific Laws require changing. The fact that they are changed demonstrates that they are not absolute. Once they are in a form that agrees with all the present observations then the Law is kept until further new observations arise that require a further revision.



This was exactly the point that I raised previously in this thread. Did you not understand my earlier posts?



You have done nothing to demonstrate that the laws you claim are from a creator came from a creator or are perfect (and therefore absolute). The whole point of this thread is for you to provide some evidence for these kind of bald assertions. Remember, as you so clearly pointed out, you are human and so cannot know all of reality. How then can you verify the perfection of a law that some other human has told you about?



Hmm, this is all equivocation again. You appear to be using the term 'law' in three different ways: 1. Scientific Law, 2. Judicial law, 3. Absolute truth. I have only been discussing scientific Laws so far, which are attempts to get closer to the absolute truth of how reality operates. Your description of 'divine law' appears to be synonymous with nature, which is what science is attempting to understand. If you continuously equivocate between all these different definitions then it's going to be very difficult to have a constructive discussion.
All I could extract from your long menifsto is that you do not know the fact that you are HUMAN.

You can hide this fact away from your eyes as much as you want but it won't change it - for good or bad you are JUST HUMAN.

I wan't to drive this point in.

YOU AND NEITHER ANY OF US IN THIS FORUM WHERE INVOLVED IN ANY OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF ANY OF THESE FANCY
THEORIES YOU ALL QUOTE HERE. YOU DID NOT DEVELOP QUANTUM THOERY NOR RELATIVITY THEORY NOR EVOLUTON
THEORY - ARE YOU MOZART? ARE YOU VAN-GOCH? SO WHAT ARE YOU SO PROUD OF?

ALL THESE STORIES JUST GIVES US EXCUSE TO BE NASTY WICKED MAGALOMANIC PEOPLE IN OUR PRIVATE LIVES.
AND TO TREAT OTHER PEOPLE LIKE WE ARE BETTER.

You speak of it as if you are the one how developed it. If you where a scientist I would speak to you like a scientist.
But you are not. Einstein is dead, Schrodinger is dead all these dudes are DEAD - so you can't even talk to them.
But if you want to speak to the "new" ones you would figure out that they do not know anything and are just DUST
nothing organaized - just a bunch of confused human beings with no direction who at best learnt how to read some book or a wikipedia site without ever THINKING about it. And I TRIED to talk to them - leads to nothing.

You will find that there are only to answers you can get from these knowledgable people:

1. It has been "verified" in an expirement. (Did you do the expirement yourself? No. Can you do it? No, I don't
have the money to do it. So its simply not more than a superstition - sorry)

2. I am not an expert on the subject. (Ok, so why are you talking to me - take me to your leader plese. But guess
what - there is no "leader" - there is no Mr. Einstein to talk to. Mediocre dust)

Ok. Lasers - that was 70 YEARS AGO AND ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE THAT ARE DEAD - Show me something
that LIVING PEOPLE are doing which is worth all this redicolus CARNIVAL and I would say that its ok. SHOW ME ONE
THING PLEASE - String theory? IT IS GARBAGE - It isn't even physcis its just MATH IN DISGUISE.

Do you know who much money is poured on science? Not lasers - useless things that NOBODY needs. These people go all over the world.
Get a FREE plane ticket and hotel at least three times a year for all sorts of convention - without EVER needing to JUSTIFY THE USE of what
they are doing BECAUSE 70 YEARS AGO EINSTEIN CAME UP WITH SOME FOOLISH THEORY THAT LEADS TO AN ATOMIC BOMB. Fantastic. I promise you - give all this money to feed the poor and needy and many more people would be MUCH more happy. You know what give all these money to make a BETTER EDUCATION SYSTEM that would teach things to KIDS and not OLD PEOPLE. Give the kids an education system that would TEACH THEM SOMETHING and not ABUSE THEM with FOOLISH TESTS. So much for our glorious culture. As long as we have LASERS we don't have to care for ANYTHING that has to do with HUMAN BEINGS - Was this empircally proven also by your scientists???

And
REDICULOUS.
Reply

Zafran
06-25-2010, 02:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Because it was copied from the Greeks who got there rather earlier, that's how it's possible. But we've been here before..... you will find plenty of desperate denials of that obvious fact (that you will no doubt find perfectly satisfactory) elsewhere.

You believe what you want to believe, 'proof' has next to nothing to do with it.
You clearly havent compared the Greek or even Indian writings with the Quran

http://islamicarchives.wordpress.com...om-the-greeks/

There are dramatic differences between what the Greeks wrote and what the Quran says.


you will find plenty of desperate denials of that obvious fact
its not obvious fact at all but a very weak assertion.
peace
Reply

Muslimeen
06-25-2010, 02:13 PM
Imam Abu Hanifah and the Atheist

Long ago in the city of Baghdad, there was a Muslim empire. On one side of the River Tigris were the royal palaces and on the other side was the city. The Muslims were gathered in the Royal Palace when an atheist approached them. He said to them, ‘I don’t believe in God, there cannot be a God, you cannot hear Him or see Him, you’re wasting your time! Bring me your best debator and I will debate this issue with him.’

The best debator at the time was Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. A messenger from amongst the Muslims was sent over the River Tigris to the city, where Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was, in order to tell him about the atheist who was awaiting him. On crossing the River Tigris, the messenger conveyed the message to Abu Hanifah Rahimullah saying, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, an atheist is waiting for you, to debate you, please come!’ Abu Hanifah Rahimullah told the messenger that he would be on his way.

The messenger went over the River Tigris once again and to the Royal Palaces, where everyone including the atheist awaited the arrival of Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. It was sunset at the time and one hour had passed, but Abu Hanifah Rahimullah still hadn’t arrived. Another hour had passed, but still there was no sign of him. The Muslims started to become tense and worried about his late arrival. They did not want the atheist to think that they were too scared to debate him, yet they did not want to take up the challenge themselves as Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was the best of Debators from amongst the Muslims. Another hour passed, and suddenly the atheist started laughing and said, ‘Your best debator is too scared! He knows he’s wrong; he is too frightened to come and debate with me. I guarantee he will not turn up today.’

The Muslims increased in apprehension and eventually it had passed midnight, and the atheist had a smile on his face. The clock ticked on, and finally Abu Hanifah Rahimullah had arrived. The Muslims inquired about his lateness and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, a messenger sent for you hours ago, and you arrive now, explain your lateness to us.’

Abu Hanifah Rahimullah apologies for his lateness and begins to explain, while the atheist listens to his story.

‘Once the messenger delivered the message to me, I began to make my way to the River Tigris, and on reaching the river bank I realised there was no boat, in order to cross the river. It was getting dark, and I looked around, there was no boat anywhere nor was there a navigator or a sailor in order for me to cross the river to get to the Royal Palaces. I continued to look around for a boat, as I did not want the atheist to think I was running away and did not want to debate with him.

I was standing on the river bank looking for a navigator or a boat when something caught my attention in the middle of the river. I looked forward, and to my amazement I saw planks of wood rising to the surface from the sea bed. I was shocked, amazed, I couldn’t believe what I saw seeing. Ready made planks of wood were rising up to the surface and joining together. They were all the same width and length; I was astounded at what I saw.

I continued to look into the middle of the river, and then I saw nails coming up from the sea floor. They positioned themselves onto the boat and held the planks together, without them being banged. I stood in amazement and thought to myself, ‘Oh Allah, how can this happen, planks of wood rising to the surface by itself, and then nails positioning themselves onto the boat without being banged?’ I could not understand what was happening before my eyes.’

The atheist meanwhile was listening with a smile on his face. Abu Hanifah Rahimullah continued, ‘I was still standing on the river bank watching these planks of wood join together with nails. I could see water seeping through the gaps in the wood, and suddenly I saw a sealant appear from the river and it began sealing the gaps without someone having poured it, again I thought, ‘Ya Allah, how is this possible, how can sealant appear and seal the gaps without someone having poured it, and nails appear without someone having banged them.’ I looked closer and I could see a boat forming before my eyes, I stood in amazement and was filled with shock. All of a sudden a sail appeared and I thought to myself, ‘How is this happening, a boat has appeared before my eyes by itself, planks of wood, nails, sealant and now a sail, but how can I use this boat in order to cross the river to the Royal Palaces?’ I stood staring in wonderment and suddenly the boat began to move. It came towards me against the current. It stood floating beside me while I was on the river bank, as if telling me to embark onto it. I went on the boat and yet again it began to move. There was no navigator or sailor on the boat, and the boat began to travel towards the direction of the royal palaces, without anyone having programmed it as to where to go. I could not understand what was happening, and how this boat had formed and was taking me to my destination against the flow of water. The boat eventually reached the other side of the River Tigris and I disembarked. I turned around and the boat had disappeared, and that is why I am late.’

At this moment, the atheist burst out laughing and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, I heard that you were the best debator from amongst the Muslims, I heard that you were the wisest, the most knowledgeable from amongst your people. From seeing you today, I can say that you show none of these qualities. You speak of a boat appearing from nowhere, without someone having built it. Nails positioning themselves without someone having banged them, sealant being poured without someone having poured it, and the boat taking you to your destination without a navigator against the tide, your taking childish, your talking ridiculous, I swear I do not believe a word of it!’

Abu Hanifah Rahimullah turned to the atheist and replied, ‘You don’t believe a word of it? You don’t believe that nails can appear by themselves? You don’t believe sealant can be poured by itself? You don’t believe that a boat can move without a navigator, hence you don’t believe that a boat can appear without a boat maker?’

The atheist remarked defiantly, ‘Yes I don’t believe a word of it!’

Abu Hanifah Rahimullah replied, ‘If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the whole world, the universe, the stars, the oceans, and the planets came into being without a creator?

The atheist astonished at his reply got up and fled.
Reply

Masuma
06-25-2010, 06:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
An33za,
Ok, I've split my posts - hope it's easier to spot this time!

Yeah at least you used your senses this time!


LOL! Nice way of turning the whole discussion off the main topic. “Theory is this, law is that,” :D clever! Okay so now just to make things more “simple”, I’m going to avoid using terms like “theory and laws”.


Previously, people believed that Earth was flat. But with the advancement of technology, we finally discovered through the satellites that it was spherical in shape (or whatever because yesterday my phy teacher said that it is not exactly spherical). So the point is that now we 100%, without any doubt, know the shape of Earth. This can't be disproved.
I still don’t see how you disproved this paragraph.

format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
Facts, such as the observed shape of the Earth can be taken on a practical level as being absolutely true (or at least true beyond reasonable doubt).

Exactly! Now we are drawing near the point! These (should we call it facts?) are absolutely true now (or at least true beyond reasonable doubt). Same way is the fact that light travels in straight line. Some things in the world can 100% be proven to be true!


Same way it goes for the “Existence of God”. We 100% know that God exists. No one, yes NO ONE has ever been able to disprove God’s existence.


Now what you atheists do is that you only want scientific proofs for the existence of God (even knowing how imperfect science is!) Even still, we Muslims bring you scientific proofs for the Existence of God, but then you people turn to your second plan of belying or “explaining” the scientific miracles of the Quran. You are even provided with logical proofs of His existence but as you people have already assumed that there is no God, so you just simply stick to it. For you people, nothing would ever be a sufficient proof.

format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
By the way, you should tell your physics teacher that the shape of the Earth is an oblate spheroid due to its rotation flattening it at the poles while expanding it at the equator. S/he should be well impressed!

Oh come on! This is just such an ordinary piece of knowledge for him. He is not going to be “impressed” by it. So lose your hope, man. It might be “impressive” for you but my teacher, with the mercy of Allah, knows far more than this. :D


format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG
I don't think it's that off-topic. The whole point of this discussion is to make clear what we mean when we ask someone to 'prove' something and whether the things we know are absolutely true or not. That's a fairly important first step to take before addressing actual proofs/evidence for the existence of the supernatural.

Leave aside giving proofs for the existence of “supernatural”, you people weren’t even able to give proofs/evidences of something natural! We asked you to prove your existence to us, but you failed and so doggedly avoided even talking about it. Clever bunch of lots you people are.



And just because we are having this discussion with people like YOU, it would really be useless in the end.


And Allah knows best!
Reply

Masuma
06-25-2010, 07:07 PM
Is the Quran God's word?
Part 1:


Part 2:


Part 3:


Part 4:


And yeah one more thing.... BUSTED!!! Hahaaha! LOL!
Reply

Masuma
06-25-2010, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
"I think therefore I am" is not from a joke. It is from French philosopher Rene Descartes.
Ahan? Okay so you said it and it became a joke! LOL! chill man...

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I understand that. I just wouldn't recommend telling the people that you can "prove" you are right. Semantics.
Oh how nice of you! :) But again your talking insane! I say 2 + 2 = 4, and you don't recommend me telling those people who say 2+2=5, are wrong???? Strange guy you are!
Reply

Masuma
06-25-2010, 07:32 PM
Proof for the existence of God:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtNJzC7NO98


Was the Quran copied from Greeks?

(well already this has been refuted but I'm just adding a few more points) :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlE7x3nuKAI
Reply

Trumble
06-25-2010, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimeen
Prove it, Muhammad Sallalahu Allaihi Wassallam never went to greece, and by the way the it's not just the human embryonic development I am talking about. There are many others I will soon post.
Please don't bother. Just do a forum search instead.

I'm not claiming the Prophet ever went to Greece; at that time classical Greece and the Western Roman Empire were no more, and the knowledge far more likely to be found in Byzantium, Alexandria or Baghdad anyway. The point is that, far from being otherwise unknown to science until recently, as is constantly claimed, this 'embryology' had been around for centuries.


format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
You clearly havent compared the Greek or even Indian writings with the Quran
Yes I have, in the case of the former, anyway. The only dramatic differences are in leeway of 'interpretation'. Galen got some stuff right and some stuff wrong. As does the Qur'an. The latter is conveniently ignored because people would rather ignore it. As I said, we've done all this before and there really is no point in repeating ourselves.

Regarding attempting to prove the existence or non-existence of God, which I have already said, with others, is a completely futile exercise , 'Qur'anic science' is a complete red herring.


format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
Now what you atheists do is that you only want scientific proofs for the existence of God (even knowing how imperfect science is!) Even still, we Muslims bring you scientific proofs for the Existence of God, but then you people turn to your second plan of belying or “explaining” the scientific miracles of the Quran. You are even provided with logical proofs of His existence but as you people have already assumed that there is no God, so you just simply stick to it. For you people, nothing would ever be a sufficient proof.
I'm not remotely interested in 'scientific proofs' for the existence of God, as there are none. If there were any, we would not even be having this discussion. And as for 'sufficient proof', if any theist could come up with a response to 'the Problem of Evil' that was anything other than totally desperate, that would be a start. But they can't.. and to me that alone is convincing evidence (not 'proof') that man created God and not vice versa. If it makes you feel better there are absolutely no logical or scientific 'proofs' for the 'truth' of my own religion either; but I've never met a Buddhist to whom that mattered in the slightest.

As to 'logical proofs'. There are none. Some of the greatest thinkers in history have been trying for over two thousand years now AND THERE ARE NONE. Likewise, there are no 'logical proofs' for the non-existence of God, either. There are arguments both ways, that is all.
Reply

Zafran
06-26-2010, 12:26 AM
Intresting where did the Quran get it wrong - By the way did you read that article that I posted.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-26-2010, 12:51 AM
@ Aneeza: I have to say that using the argument that "the atheist has not disproven the existence of God then it means God exists" is not valid. I can equally ask you this "Aneeza, disprove to me Santa Claus' existence." How will you disprove it? For that, you will have to check EVERY single pico meter of the universe. On the other hand, to prove that Santa Claus exists, you will just have to bring Santa in front of one's eyes.

All we can say is that the atheist has failed to rule out the possibility of God's existence. Everything that an atheist explains in a god-less way, it can be explained via God as well.
Reply

Trumble
06-26-2010, 07:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Intresting where did the Quran get it wrong - By the way did you read that article that I posted.
Yes; it's actually a great example of what I was talking about, one sided and full of dubious and convenient 'interpretation'. For example, what do we have as an explanation that even something as fundamental as the duration of pregnancy is totally wrong;

The explanation is that the real period of pregnancy is 6 months, during which the foetus is essentially dependent on his mother for its survival. However, if born immature at the end of a minimum of 6 months of pregnancy, the child can survive outside the body of the mother with outside support. Thus the last 3 months not accounted for, in fact correspond to this period of possible survival outside the mother’s body.
Absolutely desperate. Even today, with the vast differences in medical technology from those times (when babies 3 months premature might well survive), the length of pregnancy is always referred to as nine months, not six. However, if you find such nonsense convincing, there's not much I can do. As I said, this has been discussed ad nauseam before if you look, and is not exactly on topic here.
Reply

جوري
06-26-2010, 02:06 PM
I don't know what is going on here and who is interpreting what and have no desire to go over 14 pages of two sided nonsense.. the real period of pregnancy is 9m a fetus is considered a human being in accordance to Islamic beliefs after it has been 'ensouled' and as such if it dies before being ensouled is different than after in terms of rituals and burials etc.
modern science also sees a fetus as a viable 'human' some where around 4 months of age.. premature children do very poorly, the lungs are the last thing to develop and we all know that you need those to breathe as well a host of other problems which I have no desire to go into because I am pressed for time..

if anyone finds themselves rendering their own interpretation to the word of God, then please stop, and ask a scholar!
of course I have to apologize if I missed something since I wasn't following this thread, I just read the last post...

There are NO errors in the Quran, but we shouldn't render our own interpretations-- the Quran is a book of signs not a book of science. It is important that it is in concert with the natural science as we know them but we shouldn't turn it into a chemistry book or one of genetic engineering.. the point will have been totally lost no?

:w:
Reply

Masuma
06-26-2010, 02:16 PM
@ Trumble:


Just why are you using word “desperate” so much? Its making me feel like it fits you even more than anybody else. And please no offence there. Your desperate to prove that Islam has no authenticity and logical back up (at least that’s what I understand).

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
and to me that alone is convincing evidence (not 'proof') that man created God and not vice versa. If it makes you feel better there are absolutely no logical or scientific 'proofs' for the 'truth' of my own religion either; but I've never met a Buddhist to whom that mattered in the slightest
This is just so hopeless! Buddhists don’t even question their beliefs?! If you won’t ask questions, then how would you at all know what is right and what’s wrong? Believing in everything which your forefathers believed…you are just following them blindly. In this way then, why not accept Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism etc right at the same time? It is only through questioning your belief and demanding the proofs for the veracity of any thing which you are taught that you finally arrive at truth.

And please don’t compare my Islam with your Buddhism. I don’t want to start a new discussion about how Buddhism doesn’t stand any chance to be a true religion of God. Comparing Islam, the most logical, natural and true religion with your Buddhism is something which I consider disgraceful (to Islam).

Even the basic teachings of Buddhism like the 4 Noble Truths are ill-logical.

Noble Truths:

The principal teachings of Gautama Buddha can be summarised in what the Buddhists call the ‘Four Noble Truths’:

First – There is suffering and misery in life .

Second – The cause of this suffering and misery is desire.

Third – Suffering and misery can be removed by removing desire.

Fourth – Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path.
(Carefully read third and fourth point. Third “noble truth” teaches human beings to remove desires but it is contradicting “truth number 4”; “Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path”! For FOLLOWING the Eight Fold Path, one requires a DESIRE, so where is the question of removing it! ) And please, no further discussions on Buddhism as the thread has already reached 14 pages!

For Buddhists, it might work, but for us Muslims, we will not accept anything as long as it is 100% proven to be true. Unless we know it’s not a fantasy, or anything invented by a person’s own mind!


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I'm not remotely interested in 'scientific proofs' for the existence of God, as there are none.
You might not know them but that is not the case with everyone! (And why would you require any, as you people would believe anything blindly)


format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
@ Aneeza: I have to say that using the argument that "the atheist has not disproven the existence of God then it means God exists" is not valid. I can equally ask you this "Aneeza, disprove to me Santa Claus' existence." How will you disprove it? For that, you will have to check EVERY single pico meter of the universe. On the other hand, to prove that Santa Claus exists, you will just have to bring Santa in front of one's eyes.
All we can say is that the atheist has failed to rule out the possibility of God's existence. Everything that an atheist explains in a god-less way, it can be explained via God as well.
Okay so of all the Atheists and Buddhists here, you chose to argue with your own brethren?! Very well!

format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
@ Aneeza: I have to say that using the argument that "the atheist has not disproven the existence of God then it means God exists" is not valid.
Now SHOW ME where I said that “Atheist has not disproved the existence of God then it means that God exists”???

My exact words are here. Read them again!

Same way it goes for the “Existence of God”. We 100% know that God exists. No one, yes NO ONE has ever been able to disprove God’s existence.
And I’ve like zillion times given my proofs for the existence of God. And as you have been so selective in reading, here is it again.

PROOF FOR GOD'S EXISTENCE

format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
I can equally ask you this "Aneeza, disprove to me Santa Claus' existence." How will you disprove it? For that, you will have to check EVERY single pico meter of the universe. On the other hand, to prove that Santa Claus exists, you will just have to bring Santa in front of one's eyes.
What a waste of words!

And now I’m going to ignore your posts again. Please don’t mind :) , so called “brother”!
Reply

Woodrow
06-26-2010, 02:45 PM
Several things are being overlooked in these 14 pages of argument. For an actual argument to take place there has to be mutually accepted sources of proof. This is something that does not exist in dialogs between Theists and Atheists. There can be no argument as there are no mutually accepted sources for proof. It is almost like a Cook and a Veterinarian arguing about the value of a Renoir painting and one using books of Aesthetics as the source of value and the other using auction receipts. One may point out the high Dollar value and the other may say it is worthless from an aesthetic view.

To argue a point and prove anything there first needs to be established mutual sources of proof and an agreement as to what constitutes proof. If that is not first agreed upon an argument is only a display of emotional responses.
Reply

Masuma
06-26-2010, 02:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
To argue a point and prove anything there first needs to be established mutual sources of proof and an agreement as to what constitutes proof. If that is not first agreed upon an argument is only a display of emotional responses.
Excellent point mentioned brother! And that is why we tried to give "Scientific Proofs" for the existence of God as science is acceptable to both Atheists and Muslims!

But still the whole argument is useless and the REASON for this is that people here are JUST FOR AN ARGUMENT, NOT FOR UNDERSTANDING! You may close the thread if you want. But I don't know whether it should be done or not.
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Woodrow
06-26-2010, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
Excellent point mentioned brother! And that is why we tried to give "Scientific Proofs" for the existence of God as science is acceptable to both Atheists and Muslims!

But still the whole argument is useless and the REASON for this is that people here are JUST FOR AN ARGUMENT, NOT FOR UNDERSTANDING! You may close the thread if you want. But I don't know whether it should be done or not.


:sl:


At the moment I see value in this thread. I doubt if any conclusions will be reached in it regarding the existence of Allaah(swt) but there may be value in all of us learning a little about why others believe or do not believe.
Reply

Masuma
06-26-2010, 03:24 PM
:wasalamex

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:


At the moment I see value in this thread. I doubt if any conclusions will be reached in it regarding the existence of Allaah(swt) but there may be value in all of us learning a little about why others believe or do not believe.
Yeah definitely brother!

And I forgot to mention before that we also used logical proofs here to prove the existence of God, but nothing worked for REASONS identified before.

At least this thread cleared many things, (speaking on my behalf only) :)
Reply

Zafran
06-26-2010, 03:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Several things are being overlooked in these 14 pages of argument. For an actual argument to take place there has to be mutually accepted sources of proof. This is something that does not exist in dialogs between Theists and Atheists. There can be no argument as there are no mutually accepted sources for proof. It is almost like a Cook and a Veterinarian arguing about the value of a Renoir painting and one using books of Aesthetics as the source of value and the other using auction receipts. One may point out the high Dollar value and the other may say it is worthless from an aesthetic view.

To argue a point and prove anything there first needs to be established mutual sources of proof and an agreement as to what constitutes proof. If that is not first agreed upon an argument is only a display of emotional responses.
salaam

you nailed it.

peace
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-26-2010, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
@ Trumble:


Just why are you using word “desperate” so much? Its making me feel like it fits you even more than anybody else. And please no offence there. Your desperate to prove that Islam has no authenticity and logical back up (at least that’s what I understand).



This is just so hopeless! Buddhists don’t even question their beliefs?! If you won’t ask questions, then how would you at all know what is right and what’s wrong? Believing in everything which your forefathers believed…you are just following them blindly. In this way then, why not accept Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism etc right at the same time? It is only through questioning your belief and demanding the proofs for the veracity of any thing which you are taught that you finally arrive at truth.

And please don’t compare my Islam with your Buddhism. I don’t want to start a new discussion about how Buddhism doesn’t stand any chance to be a true religion of God. Comparing Islam, the most logical, natural and true religion with your Buddhism is something which I consider disgraceful (to Islam).

Even the basic teachings of Buddhism like the 4 Noble Truths are ill-logical.

(Carefully read third and fourth point. Third “noble truth” teaches human beings to remove desires but it is contradicting “truth number 4”; “Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path”! For FOLLOWING the Eight Fold Path, one requires a DESIRE, so where is the question of removing it! ) And please, no further discussions on Buddhism as the thread has already reached 14 pages!

For Buddhists, it might work, but for us Muslims, we will not accept anything as long as it is 100% proven to be true. Unless we know it’s not a fantasy, or anything invented by a person’s own mind!



You might not know them but that is not the case with everyone! (And why would you require any, as you people would believe anything blindly)




Okay so of all the Atheists and Buddhists here, you chose to argue with your own brethren?! Very well!



Now SHOW ME where I said that “Atheist has not disproved the existence of God then it means that God exists”???

My exact words are here. Read them again!



And I’ve like zillion times given my proofs for the existence of God. And as you have been so selective in reading, here is it again.

PROOF FOR GOD'S EXISTENCE



What a waste of words!

And now I’m going to ignore your posts again. Please don’t mind :) , so called “brother”!
When you say that no one has been able to disprove the existence of God, it is implied that God exists because His existence cannot be disproven.

Islam tells me to correct my "brethren" when they are not on truth.

Regarding my comment as being waste of words, you are just a 16-17 year old teenager who still has not finished high school. I should not expect higher levels of maturity.

Feel free to ignore my comments. I dont write them for you. People can still read them and see where you went wrong.

Good day.
Reply

Woodrow
06-26-2010, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
:wasalamex



Yeah definitely brother!

And I forgot to mention before that we also used logical proofs here to prove the existence of God, but nothing worked for REASONS identified before.

At least this thread cleared many things, (speaking on my behalf only) :)
:wa:

Since Allaah(swt) does not fall within the realm of the material world and is not limited by scientific quantification and qualification we need to look at the effects of what he has done and how he has revealed himself to mankind throughout the ages.

Some very interesting things can be found through the studies of sociology and the history of civilization.

Some areas to explore:

1. The concept of free will, how did that originate?

2. The ability to even think of the existence of Allaah(swt)

3. The almost if not universal belief in a creator in even the most ancient of societies.

4. The concepts of morality

5. The desire to serve Allaah(swt)

6. The acceptance of Prophets in virtually every culture.

7. The recognition of miracles

8. The almost universal acceptance of life after death

9. The concept of eternal reward or eternal punishment for our deeds.

10. The feeling of the joy of believing as experienced by so many.
Reply

Masuma
06-26-2010, 04:01 PM
:salamext:

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
:wa:

Since Allaah(swt) does not fall within the realm of the material world and is not limited by scientific quantification and qualification we need to look at the effects of what he has done and how he has revealed himself to mankind throughout the ages.

Some very interesting things can be found through the studies of sociology and the history of civilization.

Some areas to explore:

1. The concept of free will, how did that originate?

2. The ability to even think of the existence of Allaah(swt)

3. The almost if not universal belief in a creator in even the most ancient of societies.

4. The concepts of morality

5. The desire to serve Allaah(swt)

6. The acceptance of Prophets in virtually every culture.

7. The recognition of miracles

8. The almost universal acceptance of life after death

9. The concept of eternal reward or eternal punishment for our deeds.

10. The feeling of the joy of believing as experienced by so many.
subhanAllah brother! Good points.

But again "sociology" and "history" be not everyone's criteria to judge between right and wrong?! :D

What if people don't regard these topics as of some importance to themselves?

What if they are not
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
mutually accepted sources for proof and an agreement as to what constitutes proof.
Reply

h-n
06-26-2010, 05:13 PM
Just like to say to the Muslims that the Atheists are liars, and they say they don't believe in Allah because of this scientific theory etc, (which does not prove anything). But they did not know about the scientific theory before rejecting Islam! They try and claim its because of Science they reject Allah, nay, they use science as an excuse. That is why they run, and find, and pluck anything out of Science to throw around. AS per my other thread there is no such thing as Atheism.

They say that we are believing in nothing when they themselves have nothing, they are not part of anything, even Scientists going after things that they will never be a part of.

All atheists know that Allah exists, Allah has provided them with free will and a soul which tells them that Allah exists. that is why when they hear someone talking about Allah and the stories of the Prophet Noah peace be upon him etc to be true, the afterlife etc.

WE are happy to serve Allah, the atheists are arrogant as of the people of old. They say its wrong for Muslims to serve Allah, but they have heard about angels-they would not think to say that it is unacceptable for angels to bow down to Allah. If they say this it is only by way of lies. But mentally thinking that it is wrong of angels to bow down and be servants of Allah is wrong and a lie. This is why Allah has also mentioned about angels bowing down to Allah, they themselves no matter their sizes etc, have bowed down and praise Allah constantly. It is acceptable, it is right, it is the perfect way of living to serve, and praise and worship Allah.

All we need to do is give them the message of Islam, if they don't choose to accept it that is upto them.

They ask why for the proof of Allah when the proof is there, they think this new, even the people of old used to ask about why they can't see him. When they can't even stand looking at the sun, and even the mountain crumbled in his presence, at the time of Prophet Moses peace be upon him.

The fact is even if they saw God, then there is no test, just like even Allah stated in the Quran if people saw angels and they came to teach them. Allah stated that if they came to do one evil sin after that then they will not have another chance to repent. Just like he said to the people who had the table spreadth, at the time of Prophet Jesus peace be upon him, if they chose to be sinful after this, then he will punish them severely, as he had punished no other.
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Ramadhan
06-26-2010, 06:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DuncG

No, I do not get the difference. If you're absolutely sure in a belief, then you believe it to be absolutely true. You are therefore claiming to know some absolute truth. Perhaps you're using belief in a slightly different context to how I use it. Please can you explain how you perceive the difference between absolute (100%) belief and absolute truth - it appears to me that the first implies knowledge of the second.
I wrote "THE absolute truth", not "some absolute truth" or "an absolute truth".
in this universe, we can never know THE absolute truth because there will always be questions that we cannot answer.
"The absolute truth" only lies with The Creator who has ALL the answers.
However, within myself, I know that my surety in my belief is absolute.
So you see, what is absolute in this case is the certainty of my belief, and NOT the truth.


Do you count these as evidence for God? If so, could you expand on the reasoning, perhaps putting them into a syllogistic, deductive
I think you need to read your own original post to which I made the reply.
I never made the case that unchanged holy scriptures as evidence for God. I was addressing your own speculations about why the purity and exactness of teh Qur'an is maintained.


but let me entertain your current question (which veered away from your own allegations about the Qur'an anyway)
Let's say you write a book and you claim it's your own.
But then I decided to change the texts in your book, but I still attribute it as your book. What do you think?

It's the same with holy scriptures. Most religions claim their holy scriptures are from God, but you know that all of them (bar one) have been changed throughout history that no one even know what the original was like. Do you then believe that those current holy scriptures are from God?

Now, in The Qur'an Allah SWT Himself gives His promise that He will guard the purity of the Qur'an (I am too tired to look up the exact verse, but it is in the Qur'an).
1,400 years later after the Qur'an was revealed, it still stays exactly the same, and memorised by millions of muslims (so in order to change the Quran, you need to burn absolutely all the texts and kill all the millions muslims who have memorised it).
This is not the only evidence that Allah SWT exists, mind you, but this fact alone shows you that the promise and claim have been perfectly kept and maintained.
Reply

Ramadhan
06-26-2010, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble

I'm not claiming the Prophet ever went to Greece; at that time classical Greece and the Western Roman Empire were no more, and the knowledge far more likely to be found in Byzantium, Alexandria or Baghdad anyway. The point is that, far from being otherwise unknown to science until recently, as is constantly claimed, this 'embryology' had been around for centuries.

I have noticed that you seem to skirt around questions that you know you can't answer, including twice about the flying spaghetti monster.

You claim the information about development of embryo were available in Alexandria, Baghdad, Byzantine during Rasulullah SAW.
1. Please cite evidence and references for this.
2. Please tell us how prophet SAW acquired this information.

It's ironice isn't it, that atheists (or "buddhists" in your case) always demand hard evidence for something or else they won't believe in it.
But in so many times (including in this one about accusation that prophet SAW received info from the greeks) the lack of even the tiniest evidence is brushed off.

You guys are more militant about your beliefs and definitely not interested in trying to get closer to the truth.
Reply

Trumble
06-26-2010, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za

This is just so hopeless! Buddhists don’t even question their beliefs?! If you won’t ask questions, then how would you at all know what is right and what’s wrong? Believing in everything which your forefathers believed…you are just following them blindly.
You seem to be suffering severe comprehension difficulties. Nowhere did I say Buddhists do not question their beliefs; they do, perhaps rather more than muslims, as Buddhism is a religion of self-effort and self choice, not dictat by deity. In contrast, I don't see the muslims here questioning much about their own beliefs. What I actually said was that Buddhists have no great desire for any scientific 'proof' those beliefs are true hence, although as much 'science' can be drawn from Buddhist scripture and commentary as from the Qur'an, Buddhists themselves don't bother. Buddhist teachings are judged on their own merit by Buddhists.. they have no need to seek 'authenticity' in the same way you seem to.

And please don’t compare my Islam with your Buddhism. I don’t want to start a new discussion about how Buddhism doesn’t stand any chance to be a true religion of God. Comparing Islam, the most logical, natural and true religion with your Buddhism is something which I consider disgraceful (to Islam).
It can hardly be a true 'religion of God' as it is does not accept the existence of such a being, at least in the way you understand it. I'll ignore your idiotic comment about 'disgraceful' comparisons because you clearly don't have the first idea what you are talking about.

Even the basic teachings of Buddhism like the 4 Noble Truths are ill-logical.

(Carefully read third and fourth point. Third “noble truth” teaches human beings to remove desires but it is contradicting “truth number 4”; “Desire can be removed by following the Eight Fold Path”! For FOLLOWING the Eight Fold Path, one requires a DESIRE, so where is the question of removing it! ) And please, no further discussions on Buddhism as the thread has already reached 14 pages!
Please don't be so arrogant as to suggest I read Buddhist scripture 'carefully' when you are so woefully ignorant of it.

The third Noble Truth is simply that the cessation of suffering is possible, essentially by eliminating craving and clinging (the causes of suffering). The fourth Noble Truth - the Eightfold Path - explains how such elimination can be achieved. Obviously until it has been achieved, desires and cravings still exist. There is no contradiction whatsoever, just ignorance on your part. Try reading 'carefully' yourself and you might avoid posting total garbage like that.

For Buddhists, it might work, but for us Muslims, we will not accept anything as long as it is 100% proven to be true.
I trust that's a joke. Anyone who believes the existence of God is 100% proven to be true is totally deluding themselves. It is a matter of faith. Christians have no problem with that; why do muslims?


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I have noticed that you seem to skirt around questions that you know you can't answer, including twice about the flying spaghetti monster.
I haven't even mentioned the FSM. Are you confusing me with someone else?

You claim the information about development of embryo were available in Alexandria, Baghdad, Byzantine during Rasulullah SAW.
1. Please cite evidence and references for this.
2. Please tell us how prophet SAW acquired this information.
No, I'm saying that as that information was known several hundred years before the Qur'an was written, it was quite possible, indeed probable, that it would be known in the principal centres of scholarship at that time.

I have no idea how he, or any possible co-authors, may have acquired it. It is quite sufficient that it may have been acquired from any passing scholar of what passed for doctors, indeed was 'common knowledge' at the time. On establishment that that knowledge was in existence, the case that it could only appear in the Qur'an because it was provided by God collapses. Those who actually understand what the word 'logical' actually means will realize that, of course, that possibility is not 'disproven' either, even if somebody popped back 1300 years or so in a time machine and photocopied copies of the scrolls!

It's ironice isn't it, that atheists (or "buddhists" in your case) always demand hard evidence for something or else they won't believe in it.
In view of the above, the ludicrous nature of that comment should be obvious.

But in so many times (including in this one about accusation that prophet SAW received info from the greeks) the lack of even the tiniest evidence is brushed off.
Again.. I am not suggesting he got 'info from the Greeks', the Greeks concerned were long dead. The point is that the knowledge existed, and indeed at that time was probably more likely to be found among Arabs than Europeans.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-26-2010, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
You seem to be suffering severe comprehension difficulties. Nowhere did I say Buddhists do not question their beliefs; they do, perhaps rather more than muslims, as Buddhism is a religion of self-effort and self choice, not dictat by deity. In contrast, I don't see the muslims here questioning much about their own beliefs. What I actually said was that Buddhists have no great desire for any scientific 'proof' those beliefs are true hence, although as much 'science' can be drawn from Buddhist scripture and commentary as from the Qur'an, Buddhists themselves don't bother. Buddhist teachings are judged on their own merit by Buddhists.. they have no need to seek 'authenticity' in the same way you seem to.



It can hardly be a true 'religion of God' as it is does not accept the existence of such a being, at least in the way you understand it. I'll ignore your idiotic comment about 'disgraceful' comparisons because you clearly don't have the first idea what you are talking about.



Please don't be so arrogant as to suggest I read Buddhist scripture 'carefully' when you are so woefully ignorant of it.

The third Noble Truth is simply that the cessation of suffering is possible, essentially by eliminating craving and clinging (the causes of suffering). The fourth Noble Truth - the Eightfold Path - explains how such elimination can be achieved. Obviously until it has been achieved, desires and cravings still exist. There is no contradiction whatsoever, just ignorance on your part. Try reading 'carefully' yourself and you might avoid posting total garbage like that.



I trust that's a joke. Anyone who believes the existence of God is 100% proven to be true is totally deluding themselves. It is a matter of faith. Christians have no problem with that; why do muslims?
Well I dont claim authority in Buddhism but I do have some university level knowledge of comparative studies of Buddhism as it emerged in the context of Hinduism etc.

Anyways, it does seem there is a contradiction. One has to have a desire of not clinging to desires in order to cease suffering .... I am not sure how suffering can be ceased in totality when the desire to cease suffering remains ....
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Masuma
06-26-2010, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
You seem to be suffering severe comprehension difficulties.
AAAHAHA! LOL! no i'm not!
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Nowhere did I say Buddhists do not question their beliefs; they do, perhaps rather more than muslims, as Buddhism is a religion of self-effort and self choice, not dictat by deity.
Oh so now you turn on your own words and say that you people DO question your beliefs? Then how come your still sticking to them? They are just so contradicting to each other!


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
In contrast, I don't see the muslims here questioning much about their own beliefs. What I actually said was that Buddhists have no great desire for any scientific 'proof' those beliefs
Well I did question mine and here I'm, as a Muslimah! YeAAAY!:statisfie

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
...although as much 'science' can be drawn from Buddhist scripture and commentary as from the Qur'an, Buddhists themselves don't bother. Buddhist teachings are judged on their own merit by Buddhists.. they have no need to seek 'authenticity' in the same way you seem to.
So how do you exactly judge your beliefs then if not by science, logic etc????



format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I'll ignore your idiotic comment about 'disgraceful' comparisons because you clearly don't have the first idea what you are talking about.
Now there there Trumble, just because I explained how contradictory your 4 Noble paths are, why are you taking all your anger out at me? ;D
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Trumble
06-26-2010, 09:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Anyways, it does seem there is a contradiction. One has to have a desire of not clinging to desires in order to cease suffering .... I am not sure how suffering can be ceased in totality when the desire to cease suffering remains ....
It doesn't remain. Finally, that desire too must go but its extinction by that point is an inevitable and natural process. When you have finally crossed the river, the boat you needed to do so can be allowed to just drift away.

Anyway, although An33za's contribution contained little of merit, he was probably right about this thread not being the place for a discussion of Buddhism!
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-26-2010, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
It doesn't remain. Finally, that desire too must go but its extinction by that point is an inevitable and natural process. When you have finally crossed the river, the boat you needed to do so can be allowed to just drift away.

Anyway, although An33za's contribution contained little of merit, he was probably right about this thread not being the place for a discussion of Buddhism!
You see that boat analogy is very interesting, very subtle and very romantic. But hold on, lets compare it to what Noble truths are saying. Cessation of suffering can only be attained once all desires have been eliminated. How can the desire to eliminate suffering be itself eliminated when it is necessary to hold on to it cease suffering. In the boat analogy, the boat is not needed once river has been crossed. But in noble truths, the desire to get rid of desires, to cease suffering is constantly needed in order to cease suffering and to get rid of desires.
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Masuma
06-26-2010, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Please don't be so arrogant as to suggest I read Buddhist scripture 'carefully' when you are so woefully ignorant of it.
Well so far I have quoted things rightly! I didn't read Buddhist scriptures, just like you didn't read Quran!

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The third Noble Truth is simply that the cessation of suffering is possible, essentially by eliminating craving and clinging (the causes of suffering).
"craving and clinging" you mean "desires"?;D

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The fourth Noble Truth - the Eightfold Path - explains how such elimination can be achieved.
Can one follow the fourth noble truth until and unless he has a DESIRE for it (until he craves to follow it, until he clings to these teachings???

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
There is no contradiction whatsoever, just ignorance on your part. Try reading 'carefully' yourself and you might avoid posting total garbage like that.
Keep it civil man or you gonna lose your respect here! (and I used to think that Buddhists are very calm minded people) Seems like there are still more surprises awaiting!


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I trust that's a joke. Anyone who believes the existence of God is 100% proven to be true is totally deluding themselves. It is a matter of faith. Christians have no problem with that; why do muslims?
Faith and spirituality demands authenticity! how authentic the belief is! (but of course why would Buddhists care for proofs?!)




format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Anyway, although An33za's contribution contained little of merit, he was probably right about this thread not being the place for a discussion of Buddhism!
Now why because we are busting your own made up beliefs and you considering chickening out? LOL!
Reply

tango92
06-26-2010, 10:29 PM
ive yet to hear any coherent argument regarding this verse 21:30

Do the Unbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, before We clove them asunder? We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe?

im interested in the first half of the verse. as the second half is a discussion on its own
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Trumble
06-26-2010, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
You see that boat analogy is very interesting, very subtle and very romantic. But hold on, lets compare it to what Noble truths are saying. Cessation of suffering can only be attained once all desires have been eliminated. How can the desire to eliminate suffering be itself eliminated when it is necessary to hold on to it cease suffering. In the boat analogy, the boat is not needed once river has been crossed. But in noble truths, the desire to get rid of desires, to cease suffering is constantly needed in order to cease suffering and to get rid of desires.
I'm not sure I can really add much to what I said before. The desire to cease suffering is not constantly needed; it too can eventually be abandoned... sticking with the boat analogy imagine that that that desire to eliminate craving and selfish desire is not the boat itself, but the use of the oars to row it. Row far enough then you can stop and the boat will drift the rest of the way.

It could even be argued (although I'm not sure I'd personally agree) that such a desire to end desire is not necessary at all, at any stage, if there is sufficient faith. What the Buddha offered was a prescription for what he saw as the only 'disease' ultimately worth worrying about, that prescription being the Eightfold Path. If the Eightfold Path is followed, not casually but exclusively, it WILL eventually - according to the Buddha - result in the cessation of craving and selfish desire, and hence suffering even in total ignorance of the reason for following it, i.e. of the first three Noble Truths. No school of Buddhism to my knowledge has ever actually adopted such an extreme approach in practice, but some haven't been too far from it.
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Masuma
06-26-2010, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I'm not sure I can really add much to what I said before.
Yeah because you don't have anything to say. The "truths" are so contradicting and even if your DESPERATE to prove them to be right, you still can't!!!



format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The desire to cease suffering is not constantly needed;
Ehem! We are not talking about the time period for which "desire" is needed! We are telling you that DESIRE IS needed for following the 4th noble truth! Please stop working with deceit!
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Masuma
06-26-2010, 10:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The desire to cease suffering is not constantly needed; it too can eventually be abandoned...
For following the "fourth noble truth" you REQUIRE desire. Without desiring to follow the "fourth noble truth" how can you follow it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
It could even be argued (although I'm not sure I'd personally agree) that such a desire to end desire is not necessary at all, at any stage, if there is sufficient faith.
Your ill-logical. Faith is what? Faith requires you to be good and kind. Unless you don't DESIRE to be good and kind, you don't have faith! LOL! :D

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
What the Buddha offered was a prescription for what he saw as the only 'disease' ultimately worth worrying about, that prescription being the Eightfold Path. If the Eightfold Path is followed, not casually but exclusively, it WILL eventually - according to the Buddha - result in the cessation of craving and selfish desire,
How would you follow the "Eight fold path" unless you don't even DESIRE to follow it?


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
and hence suffering even in total ignorance of the reason for following it,
Oh, did we talk about the REASON for following? I don't think so! We were talking about the "DESIRE" of following the Eight Fold Path! AAAAHAHAHA!
Reply

Trumble
06-26-2010, 10:51 PM
Quite why I'm bothering, I dont know, but....

format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
"craving and clinging" you mean "desires"?;D
No, I mean selfish desires that perpetuate the (illusory) ego. The distinction is essential.


Can one follow the fourth noble truth until and unless he has a DESIRE for it (until he craves to follow it, until he clings to these teachings???
I have already explained that. Twice.



Faith and spirituality demands authenticity!
Don't be absurd. If there was '100% proof' or 'authenticity', there can be no faith nor any need for it.
Reply

Masuma
06-26-2010, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
No, I mean selfish desires that perpetuate the (illusory) ego.
Oh! So now your adding stuff by yourself? Now that we simplified things down for you, clearly proved how contradictory the "noble truths" were, that you started doing addition by yourself; to make the "truths" sound sensible? Please don't be like the old Christians who did so much additions by themselves that the whole Bible was changed!

Remain a Buddhist.

Selfish desire was not mentioned. Only desire was mentioned. It is now you, who is treacherously adding up words by yourself.


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Don't be absurd. If there was '100% proof' or 'authenticity', there can be no faith nor any need for it.
I think you are being one! If one doesn't have any proofs for their beliefs, how would one be sure of their veracity? How would one know whether their beliefs are true? And as your selective in reading, I asked you first that why don't you then believe in Christianity, Hinduism and Sikhism right at the same time? You just need to have FAITH. Why not have FAITH in other things too?
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Trumble
06-27-2010, 12:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
Oh! So now your adding stuff by yourself? Now that we simplified things down for you, clearly proved how contradictory the "noble truths" were, that you started doing addition by yourself; to make the "truths" sound sensible? Please don't be like the old Christians who did so much additions by themselves that the whole Bible was changed!

Remain a Buddhist.

Selfish desire was not mentioned. Only desire was mentioned. It is now you, who is treacherously adding up words by yourself.
You didn't mention selfish desire but then you, as I have said, do not have a clue what you are talking about. The Pali word used is, in fact, tanha (excuse the absence of diacritics) which means something like thirst , craving, unsatisfied longing, although as with dukkha ('suffering') there is no direct English equivalent. Contextually it refers to selfish or egotistical desire and is specified as, among other things, craving for being, craving for non-being and craving for sensual pleasure. I have already explained - twice - why there is no such 'contradiction' and all you are proving, I'm afraid, is your own ignorance.

I think you are being one! If one doesn't have any proofs for their beliefs, how would one be sure of their veracity? How would one know whether their beliefs are true? And as your selective in reading, I asked you first that why don't you then believe in Christianity, Hinduism and Sikhism right at the same time? You just need to have FAITH. Why not have FAITH in other things too?
This is gibberish. Do you know what the word 'faith' actually means? We all have faith in other things too. We have faith that our spouses and children will continue to love us and make us proud, but we never have proof of that. Indeed, sometimes that faith might be misguided. But without it, family life could not exist. We DON'T know that our beliefs are true. I might believe that I will still be alive in ten years time, indeed I do believe that! But I don't know it.
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Masuma
06-27-2010, 12:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
You didn't mention selfish desire but then you, as I have said, do not have a clue what you are talking about.
Actually it applies more to YOU! So far everyone can see who was making more sense and who was simply giving further proofs for one's ignorance!

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The Pali word used is, in fact, tanha (excuse the absence of diacritics) which means something like thirst , craving, unsatisfied longing,
Lets add a few more. Taṇhā = "the thirst that leads to attachment", craving, unwholesome desire, wish, thirst, covers all craving.
3rd "noble truth" says that cessation could be achieved through nirodha; by attaining dispassion.

So like I've repeated zillion times before, if one removes the "taṇhā", he can't follow the fourth truth, because for following the fourth truth, one requires a taṇhā.

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
This is gibberish. Do you know what the word 'faith' actually means? We all have faith in other things too. We have faith that our spouses and children will continue to love us and make us proud, but we never have proof of that. Indeed, sometimes that faith might be misguided. But without it, family life could not exist. We DON'T know that our beliefs are true. I might believe that I will still be alive in ten years time, indeed I do believe that! But I don't know it.
So you should then question your FAITH! You have faith that Buddhism is the right religion but what if your Faith is actually wrong? What if in the reality you end up in loss? How your faith is the right one? It might be that you've faith to enter paradise but instead you end up in hell? So don't you think your faith needs to be questioned? ;D

And please I'm like hell tired and bored...didn't sleep the whole night! So I'll reply to your gibberish later! :D
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Trumble
06-27-2010, 01:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
So far everyone can see who was making more sense and who was simply giving further proofs for one's ignorance!
Let's hope so, although I suspect everyone else has long since lost interest.

Lets add a few more. Taṇhā = "the thirst that leads to attachment", craving, unwholesome desire, wish, thirst, covers all craving.
Ah.. so now you are a Pali scholar? Please don't tell me what the word means, I've studied the language - in context - for many years. Regardless, you seem oblivious even to your own inclusion of the word 'unwholesome' as a qualifier of 'desire'! Tell me, as you are such an expert, where would a desire that all sentient beings be liberated from suffering fit into your unique interpretation of the Four Noble Truths?

3rd "noble truth" says that cessation could be achieved through nirodha; by attaining dispassion.

So like I've repeated zillion times before, if one removes the "taṇhā", he can't follow the fourth truth, because for following the fourth truth, one requires a taṇhā.
Yet again, I have already explained this what seems like a zillion times. As you seem either too arrogant to read it, or unable to understand it, I see no reason to do so again. You might try reading the part on the fourth Noble Truth from the article you just Googled.

So you should then question your FAITH! You have faith that Buddhism is the right religion but what if your Faith is actually wrong? What if in the reality you end up in loss? How your faith is the right one? It might be that you've faith to enter paradise but instead you end up in hell? So don't you think your faith needs to be questioned? ;D
I have faith, based on many years consideration and, to a limited extent, direct experience that the Buddha's teachings are true, and hence that Buddhism is the right religion for me. I make no such claim in relation to anybody else, the spiritual progress of others might well be served better by belief in God or gods, however misplaced, at least in the short term. All the monotheistic religions share their principle behavioural ethics with both each other and Buddhism.

I still see no evidence you understand what religious faith actually IS. Religious beliefs are always questioned by anyone who gives serious consideration to their religion, and are often tested by experiences in life. When, for whatever reason, an unproven (and unprovable) belief survives such questioning, it is then that you have faith. But there is no reason why your faith (despite your nonsense about '100% proof') is any more likely to be justified than mine.. if you can't deal with that, that's your problem. We are grown ups, and we make our own choices. If it's any consolation, if I'm right you would never know it. If you are, I will!
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Ramadhan
06-27-2010, 08:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I haven't even mentioned the FSM. Are you confusing me with someone else?
My bad. I was confusing you with pygoscelis.

No, I'm saying that as that information was known several hundred years before the Qur'an was written, it was quite possible, indeed probable, that it would be known in the principal centres of scholarship at that time.

I have no idea how he, or any possible co-authors, may have acquired it. It is quite sufficient that it may have been acquired from any passing scholar of what passed for doctors, indeed was 'common knowledge' at the time. On establishment that that knowledge was in existence, the case that it could only appear in the Qur'an because it was provided by God collapses. Those who actually understand what the word 'logical' actually means will realize that, of course, that possibility is not 'disproven' either, even if somebody popped back 1300 years or so in a time machine and photocopied copies of the scrolls!

Again.. I am not suggesting he got 'info from the Greeks', the Greeks concerned were long dead. The point is that the knowledge existed, and indeed at that time was probably more likely to be found among Arabs than Europeans.
This is what you wrote then:

Because it was copied from the Greeks who got there rather earlier, that's how it's possible. But we've been here before..... you will find plenty of desperate denials of that obvious fact (that you will no doubt find perfectly satisfactory) elsewhere.

You believe what you want to believe, 'proof' has next to nothing to do with it.
So you were accusing that prophet Muhammad got the info from the greeks.
And since you were the one who threw allegation, it is incumbent upon you to give evidence.
But I see that you have changed tact since.
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Ramadhan
06-27-2010, 09:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tango92
ive yet to hear any coherent argument regarding this verse 21:30

Do the Unbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, before We clove them asunder? We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe?

im interested in the first half of the verse. as the second half is a discussion on its own
I would also be very interested to know if the athiests and buddhists would atribute this knowledge to the greeks.

;D
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Trumble
06-27-2010, 09:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I would also be very interested to know if the athiests and buddhists would atribute this knowledge to the greeks.
Oddly enough, the 7th century BCE Greek philosopher Thales, often considered the 'father' of science in the sense that he discarded supernatural and mythological explanations in favour of looking for natural ones, believed that every thing (obviously including all living things) ultimately came from water.

As to the bit about heavens and earth being joined and clove asunder, the only thing worthy of a ';D' is the strange delusion this has any resemblance or relation to the Big Bang theory. It does not. Some people really will convince themselves of anything... are you really so insecure in the truth of the Qur'an you have to embrace such utter drivel to prop up your belief?

Anyway, yet again, been here, done that, off topic.
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Ramadhan
06-27-2010, 09:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
You seem to be suffering severe comprehension difficulties. Nowhere did I say Buddhists do not question their beliefs; they do, perhaps rather more than muslims, as Buddhism is a religion of self-effort and self choice, not dictat by deity. In contrast, I don't see the muslims here questioning much about their own beliefs.
With the thousands of threads and discussions going on in many sections, you dare to say that muslims here are not questioning much about our own beliefs?
If what you mean by "the cores and fundamentals of our beliefs" then yes maybe we are not asking much, and do you k ow why?
It;s because Islam has answered all our life's most important questions very satisfactorily, logically and with much sense and practicality.
Unlike the other religions/beliefs/faiths whose cores and fundamentals are not understood by their masses, all muslims understand with ease the basics of Islam theology.
Muslims do not need priests/monks/theologians/brahmins etc to explain:
who is The Creator, why we are created, what is the purpose of our existance, what happens after death, etc.

so yes, buddhists as well as followers of other religions will have to keep questioning their beliefs until they die, and by the time that happnes, it will be too late for them :)

If you want to touch the subject of questionings beliefs and faiths to arrive at the truth, you may want to ask about the experiences of our reverts here. Uncle Woodrow has written quite a few posts on the matter a while ago if you want to search for them, or you may want to head over to the "new muslim" section.
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Ramadhan
06-27-2010, 09:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Oddly enough, the 7th century BCE Greek philosopher Thales, often considered the 'father' of science in the sense that he discarded supernatural and mythological explanations in favour of looking for natural ones, believed that every thing (obviously including all living things) ultimately came from water.
Is your DESIRE (pun truly intended) to reject Islam and the truth that strong that makes you to keep arguing even though you have no basis to do so?

Thales proposed:
every thing is came from water
The Qur'an says:
every LIVING thing came from water

Do you not see the blinding truth or are you that stubborn?

If you are insinuating that somehow the Qur'an got its fact from Thales, how come the Qur'an got it right PRECISELY, while Thales was waaaaay of base.

Did you also know that Thales also proposed that earth sit on water, and earthquake is caused by waves of the water?


As to the bit about heavens and earth being joined and clove asunder, the only thing worthy of a ';D' is the strange delusion this has any resemblance or relation to the Big Bang theory. It does not. Some people really will convince themselves of anything... are you really so insecure in the truth of the Qur'an you have to embrace such utter drivel to prop up your belief?

Anyway, yet again, been here, done that, off topic.

So, if the verse is not explaining about the singularity beginning of the universe which then split apart, how do yo propose the meaning of the verse?
For me, its meaning is so simple for anyone to understand.
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CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 10:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Is your DESIRE (pun truly intended) to reject Islam and the truth that strong that makes you to keep arguing even though you have no basis to do so?

Thales proposed:
every thing is came from water
The Qur'an says:
every LIVING thing came from water

Do you not see the blinding truth or are you that stubborn?

If you are insinuating that somehow the Qur'an got its fact from Thales, how come the Qur'an got it right PRECISELY, while Thales was waaaaay of base.

Did you also know that Thales also proposed that earth sit on water, and earthquake is caused by waves of the water?





So, if the verse is not explaining about the singularity beginning of the universe which then split apart, how do yo propose the meaning of the verse?
For me, its meaning is so simple for anyone to understand.
That, sir, is an epic comeback. Trumble is just getting pushed into a corner now and cannot really defend the inherent contradiction of Buddha's noble truths. I even wonder if Buddha really preached those as his first biography was written about 400 years after his death!

Imagine, Mark was written about 70 years after Jesus' death and how much damage it has caused to the authenticity of Christianity. Now can you comprehend 400 years????? Buddhism ... yet another system of values with no authentic Noble truths which could be attributed to Buddah with 100% certainty.
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Masuma
06-27-2010, 10:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Let's hope so, although I suspect everyone else has long since lost interest.
That’s what I’m all hoping for, man, that’s what I’m all hoping for! And I too have lost my interest now…just wasted my time so far. And I won’t be replying any further.


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Ah.. so now you are a Pali scholar?

No. Where did I say so? But it’s another thing if you consider me one. Lol!


I have just offered more interpretations of the word “Taṇhā” just like YOU did. You added selfish desires into the category and I added “thirst that leads to attachment, craving, unwholesome desire, wish, thirst, covers all craving.”
And now this further proves how selective you are in reading that you simply ignored (on purpose I think) the finishing clause which says that “it covers all cravings”!


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Tell me where would a desire that all sentient beings be liberated from suffering fit into your unique interpretation of the Four Noble Truths?

Excuse me! Please lol! Its not me interpreting your contradictory Four Noble Paths, it is your own Buddhism! I have simply quoted the exact words of your Four Noble Truths! (deal with the truth!)

Your stupidity and arrogance is just shocking! How many times we explained to you the self defeating, self contradictory “Four Noble Truths” but you still stick to your ignorance. So now I can only say good luck with that!

And just to summaries the whole thing, (as this is my last reply here), I’m again going to repeat myself which would make it like a trillion times now.

Third noble Truth teaches you that cessation of suffering can be attainable through nirodha. Nirodha extinguishes all forms of clinging and attachment; which means something like thirst, craving; craving for sensual pleasure. (very well explains your excessive use of the word DESPERATE)
If Nirodha extinguishes all types of craving; clinging and attachment; thirst; then how can one follow the Fourth noble truth as for following the fourth noble truth, one requires this craving; thirst; attachment etc.
If your going to remove your desire as being asked in the Third noble truth, then how can one follow the Eight Fold Path?! That is, desire can only be removed by having a desire to follow the “Eight Fold Path”!
And it’s actually quite funny. Buddhists want to reach nirvana, they DESIRE to reach this stage, and still they want to remove their desires of all type, cravings of all form! Isn’t this also a craving of Buddhists to reach nirvana, (their sensual craving etc)?! :D

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I still see no evidence you understand what religious faith actually IS.
Oh I did! And explained it to you which you so cleverly ignored!

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Religious beliefs are always questioned by anyone who gives serious consideration to their religion, and are often tested by experiences in life. When, for whatever reason, an unproven (and unprovable) belief survives such questioning, it is then that you have faith. But there is no reason why your faith (despite your nonsense about '100% proof') is any more likely to be justified than mine.. if you can't deal with that, that's your problem. We are grown ups, and we make our own choices. If it's any consolation, if I'm right you would never know it. If you are, I will!
Sorry to say but all YOUR crap can easily be refuted by this quote from someone (arrrgh… I forgot the name)

“Unless a religion is able to show its truth apart from its own text and EXPERIENCE and have it verified in the public forum, the veracity of any religion and our claims remains simply an article of faith, and unprovable except to those who already accept it as and need no such proof”.
Isn’t it just beautiful?!!! :statisfie


What exactly is your Buddhism, did you ever wonder?

“Historical criticism has proved that the original teachings of Buddha can never be known. It seems that Gautama Buddha’s teachings were memorized by his disciples. After Buddha’s death a council was held at Rajagaha so that the words of Buddha could be recited and agreed upon. (how hilarious!)
There were differences of opinion and conflicting memories in the council.(lol! Good joke)
Opinion of Kayshapa and Ananda who were prominent disciples of Buddha were given preference. A hundred years later, a second council at Vesali was held. Only after 400 years, after the death of Buddha were his teachings and doctrines written down. Little attention was paid regarding its authenticity, genuineness and purity.”

Now that’s all from me. I was so patient with your stupidity but when you started being proud of it, that simply did the job. No more discussions with someone so ignorant! :)
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Masuma
06-27-2010, 10:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
That, sir, is an epic comeback. Trumble is just getting pushed into a corner now and cannot really defend the inherent contradiction of Buddha's noble truths. I even wonder if Buddha really preached those as his first biography was written about 400 years after his death!

Imagine, Mark was written about 70 years after Jesus' death and how much damage it has caused to the authenticity of Christianity. Now can you comprehend 400 years????? Buddhism ... yet another system of values with no authentic Noble truths which could be attributed to Buddah with 100% certainty.
LOL! Exactly! :D
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Trumble
06-27-2010, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

Thales proposed:
every thing is came from water
The Qur'an says:
every LIVING thing came from water

Do you not see the blinding truth or are you that stubborn?

If you are insinuating that somehow the Qur'an got its fact from Thales, how come the Qur'an got it right PRECISELY, while Thales was waaaaay of base.
It seems you too are suffering increasing comprehension difficulties. I'm not 'insinuating' anything, I just stated what Thales happened to believe in response to Tango 92. Of course, the Qu'ran does nothing of the sort with regard to precision without the usual ludicrous 'interpretation' - you are again deluding yourself. In one place it's clay, another water. Not assorted stuff that might be found in clay, or all water. Wrong and wrong... just more creation myths, not 'science'. As a claimed logician, you will of course appreciate that as the Qur'an is only speaking about living things in the relevant passages, any comparison with Thales is mute.


So, if the verse is not explaining about the singularity beginning of the universe which then split apart, how do yo propose the meaning of the verse?
For me, its meaning is so simple for anyone to understand.
Nonsense! If it's so simple to understand in those terms, how come no muslim ever did until a decade or so ago!! As a muslim, you tell me how every muslim for fourteen hundred years or so interpreted it.. before somebody happened to pick up a copy of Scientific American in a dentist's reception room while still under the influence of anasthetic. Why were muslim scholars not bombarding the early astronomers and cosmologists with letters explaining that the Qur'an provided 'so simple' an explanation of the origin of the universe?

There is no reference at all to a singularity in the verse. According to that theory there was no earth and sky 'connected' to then be cloven asunder. According to that theory the universe was not 'split apart'. Earth, in the sense of the planet, wouldn't even exist for another seven billion years or so. In the sense of earth as the 'stuff of the ground' there were no elements heavier than lithium until the first stars had formed, and died. The verse has nothing to do with the Big Bang, and I genuinely don't understand why you are so (forgive me) so desperate to think it does.


format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Trumble is just getting pushed into a corner now and cannot really defend the inherent contradiction of Buddha's noble truths.
I have repeatedly explained that there is no such contradiction. If you are unable to understand that explanation or, as I suspect, you are not even seriously trying to, there's not a lot I can do about it.


Now can you comprehend 400 years????? Buddhism ... yet another system of values with no authentic Noble truths which could be attributed to Buddah with 100% certainty.
In two and a half millennia there has never been any dispute whatsoever as to what they are. Ultimately, it doesn't even matter. The Buddha was a man, not a God, as were those who came after him that contributed to the exp[ansion of Buddhist doctrine. Buddhists judge the Dharma not because of the claimed authority of some imaginary God or gods, but on it's own merit.

As to Mark, it's not to me to speak for Christians but I wasn't under the impression that the 70 years or whatever it is has any significant influence on their perception of their religion's 'authenticity'. And it's really their view on the subject that's important, isn't it?
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Trumble
06-27-2010, 11:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za

I have just offered more interpretations of the word “Taṇhā” just like YOU did. You added selfish desires into the category and I added “thirst that leads to attachment, craving, unwholesome desire, wish, thirst, covers all craving.”
And now this further proves how selective you are in reading that you simply ignored (on purpose I think) the finishing clause which says that[U] “it covers all cravings”!
It doesn't. That's why I asked the question in specific relation to a totally unegotistical 'craving' or desire. Any Buddhist understands the essential difference. You clearly don't have the faintest idea as, presumably, the time you spent Googling was insufficient. Yet again, no matter how many times you may repeat the same garbage it remains garbage because YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.


Isn’t it just beautiful?!!! :statisfie
It is indeed. One day, if you are very lucky, you might even realize what is says is equally true of Christianity, Buddhism AND Islam!


What exactly is your Buddhism, did you ever wonder?
Nope, never thought about it. That's more sarcasm, incidently, just so you don't miss it again.


After Buddha’s death a council was held at Rajagaha so that the words of Buddha could be recited and agreed upon. (how hilarious!)
Actually, such oral transmission was the norm in India at that time and, to some extent, remains so to the present day. It is actually no more 'hilarious' than the memorization of the Qur'an, which I don't find particularly funny. Indeed in some respects it is easier in relation to Hindu and Buddhist scripture as it designed to be memorized and includes stylistic points, such as repetition, that make that easier to do.

There were differences of opinion and conflicting memories in the council.(lol! Good joke) Opinion of Kayshapa and Ananda who were prominent disciples of Buddha were given preference.
Of course, someone who had been associated with the Buddha for fifty years or so might have a difference of opinion from newcomers, and any disagreement settled by debate with appropriate consideration given to those most prominent. Oddly enough, its just like muslim or Christian scholars settling disagreements about interpreting the Bible or Qur'an. Spooky, huh?

Little attention was paid regarding its authenticity, genuineness and purity
Says that notable and totally unbiased scholar of Buddhist history, Zakir Naik.... based on, erm.. what, exactly? Yup, I can Google too. I wonder, was the good Dr Naik there at the time? At least you haven't resorted to Yayha's nonsense yet; one must be grateful for small mercies. :thankyou:
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espada
06-27-2010, 11:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FreeThinker
Prove Allah exists.
...............

:sl:

:wa:
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Ramadhan
06-27-2010, 12:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
It seems you too are suffering increasing comprehension difficulties. I'm not 'insinuating' anything, I just stated what Thales happened to believe in response to Tango 92. Of course, the Qu'ran does nothing of the sort with regard to precision without the usual ludicrous 'interpretation' - you are again deluding yourself. In one place it's clay, another water. Not assorted stuff that might be found in clay, or all water. Wrong and wrong... just more creation myths, not 'science'. As a claimed logician, you will of course appreciate that as the Qur'an is only speaking about living things in the relevant passages, any comparison with Thales is mute.
It's interesting that you keep changing your stance.
(is it your buddhist teaching to keep changing stance to avoid truth? or is it a way to cease "desire"?)
On top of that, you wrote that in reponse to MY post, not to Tango92, or is lying another way to cease desire (anything to win an argument? even if your position is false?):

If you are suffering from temporary amnesia, here's I am copying and pasting from your post #234 in a response to my post #233:

Quote Originally Posted by naidamar View Post
I would also be very interested to know if the athiests and buddhists would atribute this knowledge to the greeks.


Oddly enough, the 7th century BCE Greek philosopher Thales, often considered the 'father' of science in the sense that he discarded supernatural and mythological explanations in favour of looking for natural ones, believed that every thing (obviously including all living things) ultimately came from water.
As for other allegation about verses who mentioned living things made from clay, I challenged you to bring forth a Qur'an verse that states that ALL Living things came from water.
ANd if you can't produce evidence of your allegations, that means you lied AGAIN, no surprise here.
Or are you just parroting anti-Islamic sites without actually checking if it's true and learn if it's real?
Or is Buddism that insecure that you have to resort to lies to blaspheme the truth?

Also, by bringing up Thales with his (proven incorrect) philosophy, do you not think that it only gives unassailable proof that the Qur'an did not take from the Greeks


Nonsense! If it's so simple to understand in those terms, how come no muslim ever did until a decade or so ago!! As a muslim, you tell me how every muslim for fourteen hundred years or so interpreted it.. before somebody happened to pick up a copy of Scientific American in a dentist's reception room while still under the influence of anasthetic. Why were muslim scholars not bombarding the early astronomers and cosmologists with letters explaining that the Qur'an provided 'so simple' an explanation of the origin of the universe?
One of the miracles of the Qur'an is that it contains truth that will be revealed over time.
The msulim scientists already had the knowledge about the sun at the centre os solar system, about earth being spherical, and even understood that the circumference of the earth is not constant, all while europe still believed that earth was the centre of the universe.


There is no reference at all to a singularity in the verse. According to that theory there was no earth and sky 'connected' to then be cloven asunder. According to that theory the universe was not 'split apart'. Earth, in the sense of the planet, wouldn't even exist for another seven billion years or so. In the sense of earth as the 'stuff of the ground' there were no elements heavier than lithium until the first stars had formed, and died. The verse has nothing to do with the Big Bang, and I genuinely don't understand why you are so (forgive me) so desperate to think it does.
The qur'an is not an astronomy handbook. The qur'an is Guidance to ALL mankind.
Most mankind (even in this 21st century) do not know what heliums, lithiums, big bang are.
The Qur'an was revealed to a community in arab in the 7th century far from the centres of civilizations back then. truth about our physical universe is not the only thing contained in the Qur'an.
How do you explain that such a book contains so many truths about our natures that are still being verified until 21st century, written in such inimitable language, maintain its integrity and error-free, very precise, while its verses were revealed over 22 years in different situations and yet maintained its flowing styles while containing many miracles including numericals, ALL revealed to an illiterate man?

I write again the verse:
Do the Unbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, before We clove them asunder? We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe?

it's ok that you don't believe if the verse tells about singularity, but it DOES say that in the beginning there was no earth and everything in the universe (heavens and earth) was one unit. And this one unit was then split apart to create what theuniverse as it is.
If you disagree with my interpretation of the verse, I am very interested to know yours (you do speak arabic, don't you?)
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Pygoscelis
06-27-2010, 12:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tango92
ive yet to hear any coherent argument regarding this verse 21:30

Do the Unbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, before We clove them asunder?
What are you claiming this verse means? It says the "heavens" (whatever that is) and earth were once joined together and that Allah separated them. When you folks talk about "heaven" you usually mean a spiritual afterlife realm. So the earth and this spiritual zone were once attached to one another and now they are not? Not sure what the implications of that are supposed to be, or what this verse is supposed to prove.

Trumble mentioned he thinks you refer to the big bang theory with this? How are they in any way similar? If the Big Bang theory is shown to be wrong and replaced by a new theory (science, unlike religion is constantly fixing itself) what will you then say this verse really means?
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Pygoscelis
06-27-2010, 12:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by h-n
Just like to say to the Muslims that the Atheists are liars
Yes, we are all liars. And we eat babies and drink the tears of orphans. ;D

and they say they don't believe in Allah because of this scientific theory etc
I challenge you to find an atheist who actually says that.

they use science as an excuse.
No excuse is needed. This post of yours is screaming out for the FSM comparison.

AS per my other thread there is no such thing as Atheism.
Pretending something you don't like doesn't exist doesn't make it so.

They say that we are believing in nothing
Find me an atheist who actually says that

when they themselves have nothing, they are not part of anything
Not sure what we're supposed to be a part of. I have a family and friends and various organizations and groups that matter to me. I think I'm a part of them.

All atheists know that Allah exists, Allah has provided them with free will and a soul which tells them that Allah exists.
We atheists have no more reason to believe its your God than any other, or than the Flying Spaghetti Monster - see i knew you'd run head first into this comparison.

WE are happy to serve Allah, the atheists are arrogant as of the people of old. They say its wrong for Muslims to serve Allah, but they have heard about angels-they would not think to say that it is unacceptable for angels to bow down to Allah. If they say this it is only by way of lies. But mentally thinking that it is wrong of angels to bow down and be servants of Allah is wrong and a lie. This is why Allah has also mentioned about angels bowing down to Allah, they themselves no matter their sizes etc, have bowed down and praise Allah constantly. It is acceptable, it is right, it is the perfect way of living to serve, and praise and worship Allah.
This part isn't very coherent so it is hard to reply. I think you are saying something about Islam's total obedience and self-enslavement to power (Allah as the ultimate power)? It is true that I and most atheists I know would find that concept distasteful. I place morality above obedience.
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Ramadhan
06-27-2010, 12:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What are you claiming this verse means? It says the "heavens" (whatever that is) and earth were once joined together and that Allah separated them. When you folks talk about "heaven" you usually mean a spiritual afterlife realm. So the earth and this spiritual zone were once attached to one another and now they are not? Not sure what the implications of that are supposed to be, or what this verse is supposed to prove.

Trumble mentioned he thinks you refer to the big bang theory with this? How are they in any way similar? If the Big Bang theory is shown to be wrong and replaced by a new theory (science, unlike religion is constantly fixing itself) what will you then say this verse really means?
Do you speak arabic, pygoscelis?
If you somehow are suffering from brain dysfunction, let me remind you again that the Qur'an is in arabic.
So please enlighten us how heavens in this verse means "spiritual afterlife realm".
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espada
06-27-2010, 01:09 PM
Pygoscelis,

A question for you ... what is/was your religious upbringing? What faith (if any) were you raised?

When did you start to take on the particular beliefs you currently have (age-wise) and what kind of experiences or knowledge led you to that point?

After you've answered this, then I will ask you the following question:

Do you REALLY and TRULY want to know if Allah exists? Because there is a way to find out, if you are sincerely seeking the answer.
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Pygoscelis
06-27-2010, 01:18 PM
Nope, I don't speak Arabic. And I don't make personal attacks either (you may want to refrain from debasing yourself with them as well).

How are we supposed to answer Tango if the proper translation was not provided? Is "heavens" the wrong word? Are you going to pretend that the Quran perfectly lays out the Bing Bang theory for us? If so, I'm cool with that. I'd be left wondering what you'd do when science moves beyond the Big Bang theory to a new theory. Will you then cling to the Big Bang theory after its disproved? Or will you then admit the Quran was wrong?
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tango92
06-27-2010, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What are you claiming this verse means? It says the "heavens" (whatever that is) and earth were once joined together and that Allah separated them. When you folks talk about "heaven" you usually mean a spiritual afterlife realm. So the earth and this spiritual zone were once attached to one another and now they are not? Not sure what the implications of that are supposed to be, or what this verse is supposed to prove.

Trumble mentioned he thinks you refer to the big bang theory with this? How are they in any way similar? If the Big Bang theory is shown to be wrong and replaced by a new theory (science, unlike religion is constantly fixing itself) what will you then say this verse really means?
you arent learned in arabic (neither am i, but have enough to get by) and have just made yourself look foolish. heavens refers to everything in the universe. and the verse is very precise - joined together, then blown apart. tell me who could even fathom such an idea let alone describe it to this level of accuracy?

you could even argue the Quran makes a prediction about who discovers this first! "do not the unbelievers see"

@ trumble no doubt had the muslims known the meaning of the verse before the non muslims you could argue the quran had made a mistake.

And pygo lets even see if such a day comes where the quran is disproved. it hasnt happened yet, despite countless oppurtunitys for people to easily do so. we are not like the christiansyou are used to dealing with, because we have the truth.
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Pygoscelis
06-27-2010, 01:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by espada
Pygoscelis,

A question for you ... what is/was your religious upbringing? What faith (if any) were you raised?
My Mother was and still is a Presbyterian Christian. I was raised in that, but was never a believer. I went to church for my mothers sake until I left home, and when I visit her I still attend church with her.

When did you start to take on the particular beliefs you currently have (age-wise) and what kind of experiences or knowledge led you to that point?
I was born atheist and my upbringing failed to turn me into a Christian. So I have no particular experience that "led me astray" etc. :)

Do you REALLY and TRULY want to know if Allah exists? Because there is a way to find out, if you are sincerely seeking the answer.
I don't feel a need to look too hard into it really. I did once, when I was a teen struggling with my mom and her church people and why they believed what they did/do and why I saw through it but they didn't. I had a brief period in which I wanted to believe in Tao but couldn't bring myself to. I didn't encounter Islam until much later in life (9/11 made me aware of it, as I think is the case with many folks). I came here not long after, after seeing the massive backlash to 9/11 where right wing crazies were hating on muslims. I wanted to debunk their hate speech, and in a large way I have (I also frequent a forum on which such people are - so does Skavau actually :) )
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